I want to lift water about 20 feet from my truck to the storage tank on the
second floor of my cabin.

I used to be a commercial diver, and have used many types of "airlifts."
This is a device where a suction is created by venturi-ing air into a line
in the direction you want it to flow. In real underwater conditions, the
air expands as it rises, increasing the suction power. It really sucks up
whatever is in front of the nozzle.

I was playing with the idea of buying a pump that I could pump water from my
truck tank up to the storage tank of the cabin. (This is just for winter
use. In the warm months, there is a water system.) I am running into the
problem that a lot of them just don't have a lot of head pressure. And they
cost a lot. And they require special plumbing connectors. A small
compressor would not have to put out a lot of air to lift the water in a
1/2" line and get it to rise up. The bubbles will push the water up and
rise automatically.

Anyone else ever done this? Venturiing is a good way to make suction
devices for all manner of applications, and they are really safe because
they just use air or water.

Steve

"SteveB" wrote: (clip) Anyone else ever done this? (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I use city water pressure and a small jet pump to empty my water bed. I
doubt that it would lift the water 20 ft, through. However, if you used a
small electric pump to drive a jet, you could probably pump a large volume
of water up into your storage tank.

Ignoramus1797 wrote:
If you have a pressure washer, it will do the job, although it would
be relatively energy inefficient. It transfers a few gallons per minute.

i

Huh? A pressure washer delivers 1500+ PSI! To lift water 20', you
only need about 10 PSI. A pump with a 25' head would do real well
in this situation.

Jon

"Jon Elson" wrote: Huh? A pressure washer delivers 1500+ PSI! To lift
water 20', you only need about 10 PSI. (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
If you combine Ignoramus idea with mine, I think you will have a god working
system. Use the pressure washer to drive a jet pump (like used on a
waterbed.) The washer would send out a thin, high velocity stream, which
should easily lift a large volume of water 20 ft.

If I recall correctly , the air lift method works by adding air to the
column of water in the pipe. With the added air, the column weighs
less and the water/air column will rise to the height where its weight
is the same as the weight of the pure water.

Not a great explanation, but anyway the lift of such a system is
limited. In short I don't think it will work for your application.

What would probably work well is the Harbor Freight 12 volt marine
utility pump. 240 gallons per hour, 23 foot lift.
It is currently on sale at $25. LOT NO 9576

Dan

I think that a regular pump is the right way to go. However, if I had
to pump water uphill 20 vertical feet, I would not use a pump with 25
foot of lift. Even if it worked, it would be very slow. You probably
would want a pump with 40 or 80 vertical feet of lift (about 20 to 40 psi).

RV's use 12 volt pumps for potable water, they have good pressure,
around 35 psi, cost around $50 US. However, they only deliver around 3
gallons per minute.

Open the yellow pages and look for "pumps". A pump designed for a
shallow well would be a good choice, it would have enough pressure to
pump water uphill and still deliver good pressure/flow to a faucet.
Sump pumps generally would not have enough pressure to provide good
delivery with 20 feet of head. Also, sump pumps may not be designed for
potable water, while well pumps probably are intended for use with
potable water.

Richard


wrote:
If I recall correctly , the air lift method works by adding air to the
column of water in the pipe. With the added air, the column weighs
less and the water/air column will rise to the height where its weight
is the same as the weight of the pure water.

Not a great explanation, but anyway the lift of such a system is
limited. In short I don't think it will work for your application.

What would probably work well is the Harbor Freight 12 volt marine
utility pump. 240 gallons per hour, 23 foot lift.
It is currently on sale at $25. LOT NO 9576

Dan

"Richard Ferguson" wrote in message
...
I think that a regular pump is the right way to go. However, if I had to
pump water uphill 20 vertical feet, I would not use a pump with 25 foot of
lift. Even if it worked, it would be very slow. You probably would want a
pump with 40 or 80 vertical feet of lift (about 20 to 40 psi).

RV's use 12 volt pumps for potable water, they have good pressure, around
35 psi, cost around $50 US. However, they only deliver around 3 gallons
per minute.

Open the yellow pages and look for "pumps". A pump designed for a shallow
well would be a good choice, it would have enough pressure to pump water
uphill and still deliver good pressure/flow to a faucet. Sump pumps
generally would not have enough pressure to provide good delivery with 20
feet of head. Also, sump pumps may not be designed for potable water,
while well pumps probably are intended for use with potable water.

Richard



Yeah. After some thought, I think I am overthinking this. Will go to the
pump store where I can probably pick up one someone didn't pay for and get a
decent price, AND a pump that I know will do the work. All I have to pump
is 55 gallons at a time, but I don't want to be there half an hour.

Steve

On Tue, 11 Oct 2005 17:08:03 -0700, "SteveB"
wrote:

I want to lift water about 20 feet from my truck to the storage tank on the
second floor of my cabin.

I used to be a commercial diver, and have used many types of "airlifts."
This is a device where a suction is created by venturi-ing air into a line
in the direction you want it to flow. In real underwater conditions, the
air expands as it rises, increasing the suction power. It really sucks up
whatever is in front of the nozzle.

I was playing with the idea of buying a pump that I could pump water from my
truck tank up to the storage tank of the cabin. (This is just for winter
use. In the warm months, there is a water system.) I am running into the
problem that a lot of them just don't have a lot of head pressure. And they
cost a lot. And they require special plumbing connectors. A small
compressor would not have to put out a lot of air to lift the water in a
1/2" line and get it to rise up. The bubbles will push the water up and
rise automatically.

Anyone else ever done this? Venturiing is a good way to make suction
devices for all manner of applications, and they are really safe because
they just use air or water.

Steve


20 feet of lift is only about 10 PSI. If your truck's water tank
can take 10 to 20 PSI, just pressurize the tank with the small
compressor.

Nearly any thin cylindrical shell can take 20 PSI with no problem.
Plastic soda bottles and beer cans can take over 100 PSI. If the
tank has flat ends, they might need to be braced with plywood discs.
and tierods.

SteveB wrote:
I want to lift water about 20 feet from my truck to the storage tank on the
second floor of my cabin.

I used to be a commercial diver, and have used many types of "airlifts."
This is a device where a suction is created by venturi-ing air into a line
in the direction you want it to flow. In real underwater conditions, the
air expands as it rises, increasing the suction power. It really sucks up
whatever is in front of the nozzle.

I was playing with the idea of buying a pump that I could pump water from my
truck tank up to the storage tank of the cabin. (This is just for winter
use. In the warm months, there is a water system.) I am running into the
problem that a lot of them just don't have a lot of head pressure. And they
cost a lot. And they require special plumbing connectors. A small
compressor would not have to put out a lot of air to lift the water in a
1/2" line and get it to rise up. The bubbles will push the water up and
rise automatically.

Anyone else ever done this? Venturiing is a good way to make suction
devices for all manner of applications, and they are really safe because
they just use air or water.

Steve

The venturi effect may have a very slight effect on the air lift tube,
but mostly it is the water pressure itself that lifts the column. By
putting air in the column you're reducing the pressure inside, causing
the water to rise. You need depth to make it work.

I'd look for a cheap water pump. You don't need much pressure for a 20
foot head, which is just about 10 psi. Garden hose connections should
do it, although they're probably in violation of some health or
building code.

John Martin

SteveB wrote:

Anyone else ever done this? Venturiing is a good way to make suction
devices for all manner of applications, and they are really safe because
they just use air or water.

Yes, when I testet my vacuum pump. It sucked about 8m.
Here is a plan:
http://www.motor-manufaktur.de/werks.../en_index.html


HTH,
Nick
--
Motor Modelle // Engine Models
http://www.motor-manufaktur.de

wrote:
If I recall correctly , the air lift method works by adding air to the
column of water in the pipe. With the added air, the column weighs
less and the water/air column will rise to the height where its weight
is the same as the weight of the pure water.

Not a great explanation, but anyway the lift of such a system is
limited. In short I don't think it will work for your application.

What would probably work well is the Harbor Freight 12 volt marine
utility pump. 240 gallons per hour, 23 foot lift.
It is currently on sale at $25. LOT NO 9576

Dan

Even good 'marine' pumps tend to be rated for head at ZERO flow and flow
at ZERO head. Also they do not often maintain their ratings when they
age a bit. It also may have been rated at 13.8 V or even 14.4 V and if
run at 12V will underperform. Rough rule of thumb for boat pumps, buy
twice the pump you think you need.

--
Ian Malcolm. London, ENGLAND. (NEWSGROUP REPLY PREFERRED)
ianm[at]the[dash]malcolms[dot]freeserve[dot]co[dot]uk [at]=@, [dash]=- &
[dot]=.
*Warning* SPAM TRAP set in header, Use email address in sig. if you must.

Hey Steve,

Well, I see lots of advice has been given already, so I'll leave any
suggestions about your actual "question".

I would ask for a clarification though. What's this "water" used for?
If it is to be potable, them any use of air injection should be well
thought out, as air is a carrier and nutrient of many forms of
undesirable bacteria, and any compressed air that is not of a surgical
grade will no doubt have contaminants from the compressor/tank itself.
I know I wouldn't want to drink what comes out of the air-line on mine
for sure!! And besides, as has been discussed here on RCM before,
using compressed air you've generated is not very economical of
energy. It is an expensive method of transferring energy.

As to the reason you are contemplating doing this...is it just for the
"off-season" use and need for water in the cabin? If so, why not a
marine/RV diaphragm type pump in line with a "55 gallon" ground level
tank (the 55 gallons was what I think you describe as having already).
They are readily available in 12VDC or 115VAC with a pressure switch
to provide a relatively constant pressure in the lines. Assuming that
the "seasonal" water supply is due to the freezing hazard, this would
seem to make it more convenient in my estimation.

Take care.

Brian Lawson,
Bothwell, Ontario.
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
tOn Tue, 11 Oct 2005 17:08:03 -0700, "SteveB"
wrote:

I want to lift water about 20 feet from my truck to the storage tank on the
second floor of my cabin.

I used to be a commercial diver, and have used many types of "airlifts."
This is a device where a suction is created by venturi-ing air into a line
in the direction you want it to flow. In real underwater conditions, the
air expands as it rises, increasing the suction power. It really sucks up
whatever is in front of the nozzle.

I was playing with the idea of buying a pump that I could pump water from my
truck tank up to the storage tank of the cabin. (This is just for winter
use. In the warm months, there is a water system.) I am running into the
problem that a lot of them just don't have a lot of head pressure. And they
cost a lot. And they require special plumbing connectors. A small
compressor would not have to put out a lot of air to lift the water in a
1/2" line and get it to rise up. The bubbles will push the water up and
rise automatically.

Anyone else ever done this? Venturiing is a good way to make suction
devices for all manner of applications, and they are really safe because
they just use air or water.

Steve

If you combine Ignoramus idea with mine, I think you will have a god working
system. Use the pressure washer to drive a jet pump (like used on a
waterbed.) The washer would send out a thin, high velocity stream, which
should easily lift a large volume of water 20 ft.

What you described was frequently used in mining to generate large
amounts of mechanical and pumping power. It is called a Pelton Wheel
where you have a large, but very efficient water wheel driven by a hi
pressure jet. You can create this by aiming the pressure washer at the
impeller of almost any pump. You could probably make a swimming pool
pump work if you got access to the impeller. The ultimate result is to
use the power produced by a pelton wheel to drive another pump.

"Brian Lawson" wrote in message
...
Hey Steve,

Well, I see lots of advice has been given already, so I'll leave any
suggestions about your actual "question".

I would ask for a clarification though. What's this "water" used for?

It is used for bathing and washing dishes. In both cases, it is heated
first.

steve

"SteveB" wrote in message
newstY2f.15195$fE5.561@fed1read06...
| I want to lift water about 20 feet from my truck to the storage tank on
the
| second floor of my cabin.

Looking over all the answers is very enlightening, but 20 feet to a pump
is a lot for average pumps. Why not put two pumps in line, one at the
bottom and one halfway up? Sure, one might push or pull a little more than
the other, but you'll get your water where it needs to be with the least
amount of hassle.
Then again, you could just roll the barrels out onto the manlift you
recently acquired to get stuff up and down your little cliff house. Lessee,
55 gallons of water is well over 400 pounds, so that might be pushing the
limits of the machine.

wrote:

If I recall correctly , the air lift method works by adding air to the
column of water in the pipe. With the added air, the column weighs
less and the water/air column will rise to the height where its weight
is the same as the weight of the pure water.

Not a great explanation, but anyway the lift of such a system is
limited. In short I don't think it will work for your application.


Right. In other words, it works great in an environment already
filled with water, like a swimming pool, or the ocean. But, it won't
work well, or at all, where the density outside is 100 times lower, like
the air. You don't have the equivalent head of water at the inlet side
in that case.

Jon

"carl mciver" wrote in message
.net...
"SteveB" wrote in message
newstY2f.15195$fE5.561@fed1read06...
| I want to lift water about 20 feet from my truck to the storage tank on
the
| second floor of my cabin.

Looking over all the answers is very enlightening, but 20 feet to a
pump
is a lot for average pumps. Why not put two pumps in line, one at the
bottom and one halfway up? Sure, one might push or pull a little more
than
the other, but you'll get your water where it needs to be with the least
amount of hassle.
Then again, you could just roll the barrels out onto the manlift you
recently acquired to get stuff up and down your little cliff house.
Lessee,
55 gallons of water is well over 400 pounds, so that might be pushing the
limits of the machine.


The lift is under construction. There is a very tight steep set of 13 steps
from one level to the other inside the cabin. Right now, I carry one cubic
foot cubes of water, and those are about all I can do. Around 65# each.

To put it in, I would need to cut a door on the second level. Well, come to
think of it, that would allow access to the new deck, and to the elevator to
the observation tower.

STeve ;-)