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Old July 3rd 15, 04:53 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Default Electrical - what's wrong with this?

I don't mean technically or Code, but we have a well and we have noway of knowing when there is a pump problem until there is no water. So here's my thinking.

It is pretty common for the water to wear a hole in the lowest pipe about 10" above the pump connection. When the pumps shuts off, this then drains down the water head so the pump needs to run again.

This happens in pump-cycles until the hole is big enough and we run out of water. We are not aware of the increased frequency of the pump running until the pump output matches the hole exhaust capability.

So, not only do we have to pay $700 to have the pump lifted and pipe replaced, we will have paid a bunch on wasted power as it can be a few months before the hole is big enough to cause a noticeable issue.

I have one of these and very pleased with it.
http://www.amazon.com/TS-836A-Energy...ds=power+meter

I am thinking of getting one of these and it's female counterpart.
http://www.amazon.com/Leviton-000-51...rds=power+plug

Then wire the plug set into one leg of the pump 240 and Neutral and plug the meter in between. I can check the Cost on the meter regularly and will know if there is trouble brewing.

**Helpful** thoughts?

Dave

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Old July 3rd 15, 05:04 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Default Electrical - what's wrong with this?

"Dave, I can't do that" fired this volley in
:

It is pretty common for the water to wear a hole in the lowest pipe
about 10" above the pump connection. When the pumps shuts off, this
then drains down the water head so the pump needs to run again.


Dave, the first thing (not electrical, sorry) that comes to mind is to
deal differently with what must be a LOT of sand in your water!

Just replacing the bottom 10' of the lift pipe with something more
abrasion-resistant would seem to be a good thing.

I personally don't have a submersible, anymore. 'Had one at my last
house, but now, although our well is 180' deep, the water table is within
10' of the surface, so we use a common above-ground jet pump.

But when I had a submersible, it lasted 23 years in regular residential
service (until we move...), along with some irrigation. We had limestone
formations, not sand.

I'm sure someone else has had this problem, and the well/pump industry
likely has a solution to it. (dunno... something like a 'droppable' HDPE
liner, or something, so it can be serviced without pulling the whole pipe
string). If the HDPE were the full length of the string, it could
probably be replaced by the homeowner at less cost that hiring it out.

Lloyd
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Old July 3rd 15, 05:13 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Default Electrical - what's wrong with this?

On Fri, 03 Jul 2015 08:53:06 -0700, Dave, I can't do that wrote:

I don't mean technically or Code, but we have a well and we have noway
of knowing when there is a pump problem until there is no water. So
here's my thinking.

It is pretty common for the water to wear a hole in the lowest pipe
about 10" above the pump connection. When the pumps shuts off, this then
drains down the water head so the pump needs to run again.

This happens in pump-cycles until the hole is big enough and we run out
of water. We are not aware of the increased frequency of the pump
running until the pump output matches the hole exhaust capability.

So, not only do we have to pay $700 to have the pump lifted and pipe
replaced, we will have paid a bunch on wasted power as it can be a few
months before the hole is big enough to cause a noticeable issue.

I have one of these and very pleased with it.
http://www.amazon.com/TS-836A-Energy...ty-Monitor/dp/

B00E945SJG/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1435938092&sr=8-2&keywords=power+meter

I am thinking of getting one of these and it's female counterpart.
http://www.amazon.com/Leviton-000-51...r-Grounded/dp/

B000FKBZ7M/ref=sr_1_15?ie=UTF8&qid=1435938149&sr=8-15&keywords=power+plug

Then wire the plug set into one leg of the pump 240 and Neutral and plug
the meter in between. I can check the Cost on the meter regularly and
will know if there is trouble brewing.

**Helpful** thoughts?

Dave


Your fancy wattmeter will only read half of what the pump is actually
using. You probably knew that already.

Make sure your fancy wattmeter can stand the current draw -- a normal
outlet is 10 or 15 amps; your pump may need much more.

All you really need is an instrument that'll show accrued time. If you
could get an old mechanical clock that had a "days" dial then you could
use that. Or just an old mechanical clock, if you looked at it often
enough.

If you don't like my mechanical clock idea, and if your wattmeter gizmo
can't handle the pump current, wire a socket into one leg of the pump
supply as planned (if you want to be Electrically Correct fuse it for 15
A), plug your gizmo into it, and plug a load, like a 100W light bulb,
into the gizmo. Then your total energy usage will be a measure of time.
It won't be perfect, and you'll need to make sure that your light bulb
isn't burnt out, but you'll get a reading on pump usage.

For that matter, if there's someplace in your house close to the pump
circuit where you're to be found often, just put the light there and keep
an eye on it. Even if the pump house is outside, a 100W light bulb
should be visible most of the time.

--
www.wescottdesign.com
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Old July 3rd 15, 05:28 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Default Electrical - what's wrong with this?

On Fri, 3 Jul 2015 08:53:06 -0700 (PDT), "Dave, I can't do that"
wrote:

I don't mean technically or Code, but we have a well and we have noway of knowing when there is a pump problem until there is no water. So here's my thinking.

It is pretty common for the water to wear a hole in the lowest pipe about 10" above the pump connection. When the pumps shuts off, this then drains down the water head so the pump needs to run again.

This happens in pump-cycles until the hole is big enough and we run out of water. We are not aware of the increased frequency of the pump running until the pump output matches the hole exhaust capability.

So, not only do we have to pay $700 to have the pump lifted and pipe replaced, we will have paid a bunch on wasted power as it can be a few months before the hole is big enough to cause a noticeable issue.

I have one of these and very pleased with it.
http://www.amazon.com/TS-836A-Energy...ds=power+meter

I am thinking of getting one of these and it's female counterpart.
http://www.amazon.com/Leviton-000-51...rds=power+plug

Then wire the plug set into one leg of the pump 240 and Neutral and plug the meter in between. I can check the Cost on the meter regularly and will know if there is trouble brewing.

**Helpful** thoughts?

Dave


May or may not work, depending on whether the meter looks at the hot
or neutral leg to sense current. It'd be easier to install a
running-time meter in the pressure switch circuit, and less worries
about code compliance.

For example: http://www.ebay.com/itm/271092460905

--
Ned Simmons
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Old July 3rd 15, 05:50 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Default Electrical - what's wrong with this?

"Dave, I can't do that" wrote in message
...
I don't mean technically or Code, but we have a well and we have
noway of knowing when there is a pump problem until there is no
water. So here's my thinking.

It is pretty common for the water to wear a hole in the lowest pipe
about 10" above the pump connection. When the pumps shuts off, this
then drains down the water head so the pump needs to run again.

This happens in pump-cycles until the hole is big enough and we run
out of water. We are not aware of the increased frequency of the
pump running until the pump output matches the hole exhaust
capability.

So, not only do we have to pay $700 to have the pump lifted and pipe
replaced, we will have paid a bunch on wasted power as it can be a
few months before the hole is big enough to cause a noticeable
issue.

I have one of these and very pleased with it.
http://www.amazon.com/TS-836A-Energy...ds=power+meter

I am thinking of getting one of these and it's female counterpart.
http://www.amazon.com/Leviton-000-51...rds=power+plug

Then wire the plug set into one leg of the pump 240 and Neutral and
plug the meter in between. I can check the Cost on the meter
regularly and will know if there is trouble brewing.

**Helpful** thoughts?

Dave


I have a Kill-A-Watt-EZ on the fridge and yesterday I also datalogged
its temperature cycling and run current, to determine the duty cycle
and performance margin at 72F room temperature. It costs me $3.52 per
month right now.

In my experience, doing the same thing in midwinter with my backup
electric heat, this LED that turns on when current flows would be more
useful if you can locate it in your normal living space.
http://www.amazon.com/CR-Magnetics-R.../dp/B006K3O1MY

-jsw






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Old July 3rd 15, 06:29 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Default Electrical - what's wrong with this?

On 07/03/2015 10:53 AM, Dave, I can't do that wrote:
....
It is pretty common for the water to wear a hole in the lowest pipe
about 10" above the pump connection. ...


I'm like Lloyd--whassup w/ that!!!????

I'd fix the problem, not monitor the symptoms.

But, as another one or two said, to monitor the pump what you really
want is simply a run-time indicator.

--

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Old July 3rd 15, 06:31 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Default Electrical - what's wrong with this?

On Fri, 03 Jul 2015 11:04:06 -0500, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:

"Dave, I can't do that" fired this volley in
:

It is pretty common for the water to wear a hole in the lowest pipe
about 10" above the pump connection. When the pumps shuts off, this
then drains down the water head so the pump needs to run again.


Dave, the first thing (not electrical, sorry) that comes to mind is to
deal differently with what must be a LOT of sand in your water!


D'oh. I was going to mention that, and forgot.

+1. We've replaced our well pump once in our ten years here, and that
was due to rank stupidity, involving a severe water leak that went
unnoticed and pumped the well dry.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com
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Old July 3rd 15, 07:10 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Default Electrical - what's wrong with this?

On Friday, July 3, 2015 at 9:04:09 AM UTC-7, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:

Thanks Lloyd,

Not sand it is just normal water abrasion. It's why pebbles in streams are round.

Well is 430-ft, water level last checked 316-ft. I two well-company people seriously doubt it is sand at the level. I asked and they said, normal water erosion. I defer to them and unfortunately no band-aid process available as the pipe is in 21' lengths with couplings joining each length.

Many out here have the problem that's why the well-companies can charge 700-bucks for three hours work. I am looking into continuous pipe and support cables for the next time that way I can lift it myself. It'll only cost $350 to lift it, but I bet they can think of a good reason to charge 700 anyway. Capitalism and a captive market.

Thanks anyway though.
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Old July 3rd 15, 07:15 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Default Electrical - what's wrong with this?

On Fri, 03 Jul 2015 12:28:23 -0400, Ned Simmons wrote:

On Fri, 3 Jul 2015 08:53:06 -0700 (PDT), "Dave, I can't do that"
wrote:

I don't mean technically or Code, but we have a well and we have noway
of knowing when there is a pump problem until there is no water. So
here's my thinking.

It is pretty common for the water to wear a hole in the lowest pipe
about 10" above the pump connection. When the pumps shuts off, this then
drains down the water head so the pump needs to run again.

This happens in pump-cycles until the hole is big enough and we run out
of water. We are not aware of the increased frequency of the pump
running until the pump output matches the hole exhaust capability.

So, not only do we have to pay $700 to have the pump lifted and pipe
replaced, we will have paid a bunch on wasted power as it can be a few
months before the hole is big enough to cause a noticeable issue.

I have one of these and very pleased with it.
http://www.amazon.com/TS-836A-Energy...ty-Monitor/dp/

B00E945SJG/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1435938092&sr=8-2&keywords=power+meter

I am thinking of getting one of these and it's female counterpart.
http://www.amazon.com/Leviton-000-51...r-Grounded/dp/

B000FKBZ7M/ref=sr_1_15?ie=UTF8&qid=1435938149&sr=8-15&keywords=power+plug

Then wire the plug set into one leg of the pump 240 and Neutral and plug
the meter in between. I can check the Cost on the meter regularly and
will know if there is trouble brewing.

**Helpful** thoughts?

Dave


May or may not work, depending on whether the meter looks at the hot or
neutral leg to sense current. It'd be easier to install a running-time
meter in the pressure switch circuit, and less worries about code
compliance.

For example: http://www.ebay.com/itm/271092460905


D'oh. I should have known you could get those off the shelf.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com
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Old July 3rd 15, 07:19 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Default Electrical - what's wrong with this?

On Friday, July 3, 2015 at 9:13:48 AM UTC-7, Tim Wescott wrote:

Make sure your fancy wattmeter can stand the current draw -- a normal
outlet is 10 or 15 amps; your pump may need much more.


It's a 240v 1.5hp motor (1134-Watt) and I doubt the meter is directly in series with the load. Might be wrong, have been before.

Or just an old mechanical clock, if you looked at it often


Great idea, thanks, I will see what's at the local junk shops next time in town. Must surely be able to find one of those old flap-clocks.

The pump, supply and connections are 100-feet from the house and not visible and, I would prefer not to be adding 100-Watts extra to the costs.

I am going with the flap-clock, if I can find one. Brilliant thought, thanks again.

Dave


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