In article , says...

On 10/9/2010 3:38 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:

"Americans went to war with target rifles
Germans went war with hunting rifles
Brits went to war with battle rifles"

Russians went to war with tractors

G

Gunner

And the T34/76 was a really GOOD tractor!

However I do wonder what qualifies the Garand as less of a "battle
rifle" and more of a "target rifle" than the Lee-Enfield.

Gunner Asch on Sun, 10 Oct 2010 13:24:23 -0700
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

No scoped handguns in your battery? Check out Thompson-Contenders.

Now the big question is...how far can you actually shoot in your area?

It may be like having a tricked out car or truck that will go from 0-120
in 4 seconds..but if your speed limit is 55....you will sooner or later
have some issues.....

Living in the north woods of Michigan, I had no or little ability to
shoot 400 yrds let alone 1500. So an accurate to 1500 yrd cartridge/arm
really was...superflouious.

Living in the desert..thats another matter completely.

You do know that the 45-70 can be an acceptionally accurate..very
accurate cartridge, in the proper arm, right? 1 hole 5 shot groups are
common. But while it will indeed shoot out to 1000 yrds....one must
watch out for low flying planes when doing so.

Living in a "short range" state as you do...I think Id go more towards
the small .22 centerfires than the big long range express cartridges.
You can at least find 200 yrds to shoot em, unlike a .338 Lapua etc

I got some instruction from someone who was working in
environments where 20 feet was a long shot. So he was teaching me
about the proper use of a rifle in close social interaction.
Now I want a "short rifle" for close up an personal. (The Czech,
iirc, have a nice bullpup model rifle in 5.7mm for the REMP - neat,
cool, I want one.)
It is all about what you have and where you are.


tschus
pyotr
--
pyotr filipivich
We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!

On Mon, 11 Oct 2010 00:40:19 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In article , says...

On 10/9/2010 3:38 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:

"Americans went to war with target rifles
Germans went war with hunting rifles
Brits went to war with battle rifles"

Russians went to war with tractors

G

Gunner

And the T34/76 was a really GOOD tractor!

However I do wonder what qualifies the Garand as less of a "battle
rifle" and more of a "target rifle" than the Lee-Enfield.

Because the Lee Enfield can be buried in mud, used to pry out a Bren
carrier and then used as a tent pole, and when needed, it will fire

The Garand...unfortunately...wont fire when treated that way. Least not
more than once.

Plus it holds 3 rounds less than the LE

And it tells the other side when its empty.

Gunner


I am the Sword of my Family
and the Shield of my Nation.
If sent, I will crush everything you have built,
burn everything you love,
and kill every one of you.
(Hebrew quote)

On 2010-10-11, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Mon, 11 Oct 2010 00:40:19 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

[ ... ]

However I do wonder what qualifies the Garand as less of a "battle
rifle" and more of a "target rifle" than the Lee-Enfield.

Because the Lee Enfield can be buried in mud, used to pry out a Bren
carrier and then used as a tent pole, and when needed, it will fire

The Garand...unfortunately...wont fire when treated that way. Least not
more than once.

Plus it holds 3 rounds less than the LE

And it tells the other side when its empty.

I don't think that anything tells the other side that more than
a Luger. :-) (I guess that you could paint the toggle links day-glo
orange or something, but even without that, it is still pretty obvious,
even to the person you are pointing it at.

Is the Garrand empty status more visible to someone off to the
side? Does it perhaps drop the magazine automatically? (I've never had
one of those to play with -- just the 98 Mauser, and the SKS for long
guns.)

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On 11 Oct 2010 23:30:03 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2010-10-11, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Mon, 11 Oct 2010 00:40:19 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

[ ... ]

However I do wonder what qualifies the Garand as less of a "battle
rifle" and more of a "target rifle" than the Lee-Enfield.

Because the Lee Enfield can be buried in mud, used to pry out a Bren
carrier and then used as a tent pole, and when needed, it will fire

The Garand...unfortunately...wont fire when treated that way. Least not
more than once.

Plus it holds 3 rounds less than the LE

And it tells the other side when its empty.

I don't think that anything tells the other side that more than
a Luger. :-) (I guess that you could paint the toggle links day-glo
orange or something, but even without that, it is still pretty obvious,
even to the person you are pointing it at.

Is the Garrand empty status more visible to someone off to the
side? Does it perhaps drop the magazine automatically? (I've never had
one of those to play with -- just the 98 Mauser, and the SKS for long
guns.)

Enjoy,
DoN.

He is talking about the rather distinctive "ting" the Garand makes
when it ejects the empty clip. This story has been going round and
round probably since the days that the Garand was accepted and makes
perfect sense - there you are in the middle of a fire fight - 50
people shooting guns, grenades exploding, machine guns blasting away
and you fire your last round and the rifle ejects the clip - Ting.

Immediately the enemy, hearing that noise, amid the sounds of battle,
and knowing that your rifle is empty leap to their feet and charge
your position as they now know that your weapon is empty.....

And, given that you can load 8 rounds into a Garand faster then you
can load 7 into a colt 1911 you can see that the enemy has a plenty of
time to come and get you.

Cheers,

John D. Slocomb
(jdslocombatgmail)

On 10/10/2010 11:40 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
In , says...

On 10/9/2010 3:38 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:

"Americans went to war with target rifles
Germans went war with hunting rifles
Brits went to war with battle rifles"

Russians went to war with tractors

G

Gunner

And the T34/76 was a really GOOD tractor!

However I do wonder what qualifies the Garand as less of a "battle
rifle" and more of a "target rifle" than the Lee-Enfield.

Aside from the rear sight being unnecessarily complicated, the Garand
couldn't take nearly as much combat abuse and keep firing. If your ammo
supply came in belts or 5 round clips, as it might, you had a single
shot rifle.

David

On 2010-10-12, J D Slocomb wrote:
On 11 Oct 2010 23:30:03 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2010-10-11, Gunner Asch wrote:

[ ... ]

And it tells the other side when its empty.

I don't think that anything tells the other side that more than
a Luger. :-) (I guess that you could paint the toggle links day-glo
orange or something, but even without that, it is still pretty obvious,
even to the person you are pointing it at.

Is the Garrand empty status more visible to someone off to the
side? Does it perhaps drop the magazine automatically? (I've never had
one of those to play with -- just the 98 Mauser, and the SKS for long
guns.)

[ ... ]

He is talking about the rather distinctive "ting" the Garand makes
when it ejects the empty clip. This story has been going round and
round probably since the days that the Garand was accepted and makes
perfect sense - there you are in the middle of a fire fight - 50
people shooting guns, grenades exploding, machine guns blasting away
and you fire your last round and the rifle ejects the clip - Ting.

Immediately the enemy, hearing that noise, amid the sounds of battle,
and knowing that your rifle is empty leap to their feet and charge
your position as they now know that your weapon is empty.....

Hmm ... how likely are they to hear that with all the other
noise sources around you that you just described?

And in a battle, would there not be others near you who were not
yet empty?

And, given that you can load 8 rounds into a Garand faster then you
can load 7 into a colt 1911 you can see that the enemy has a plenty of
time to come and get you.

It doesn't take long to put a full magazine into the 1911 if you
aren't worried about saving the empty magazine -- or are you talking
about the time needed to fill an empty magazine? Did the Garand use a
stripper clip, or something which shoved into the underside of the
action?

Thanks,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On 12 Oct 2010 02:27:58 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2010-10-12, J D Slocomb wrote:
On 11 Oct 2010 23:30:03 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2010-10-11, Gunner Asch wrote:

[ ... ]

And it tells the other side when its empty.

I don't think that anything tells the other side that more than
a Luger. :-) (I guess that you could paint the toggle links day-glo
orange or something, but even without that, it is still pretty obvious,
even to the person you are pointing it at.

Is the Garrand empty status more visible to someone off to the
side? Does it perhaps drop the magazine automatically? (I've never had
one of those to play with -- just the 98 Mauser, and the SKS for long
guns.)

[ ... ]

He is talking about the rather distinctive "ting" the Garand makes
when it ejects the empty clip. This story has been going round and
round probably since the days that the Garand was accepted and makes
perfect sense - there you are in the middle of a fire fight - 50
people shooting guns, grenades exploding, machine guns blasting away
and you fire your last round and the rifle ejects the clip - Ting.

Immediately the enemy, hearing that noise, amid the sounds of battle,
and knowing that your rifle is empty leap to their feet and charge
your position as they now know that your weapon is empty.....

Hmm ... how likely are they to hear that with all the other
noise sources around you that you just described?

And in a battle, would there not be others near you who were not
yet empty?

And, given that you can load 8 rounds into a Garand faster then you
can load 7 into a colt 1911 you can see that the enemy has a plenty of
time to come and get you.

It doesn't take long to put a full magazine into the 1911 if you
aren't worried about saving the empty magazine -- or are you talking
about the time needed to fill an empty magazine? Did the Garand use a
stripper clip, or something which shoved into the underside of the
action?

Thanks,
DoN.

Stripper, I think (don't own one). They were loaded through the open
bolt, not by a magazine. That's basically the M14, a selective fire
Garand with box magazines.

I'd heard that savvy GI's (those still alive 3 days after delivery
from the repple depple) learned to save the empty clips and throw one
on the ground after firing a shot if they wanted to lure out the
opposition. That'd pretty quick make it a non-issue.

Pete Keillor

On Oct 11, 8:27*pm, "DoN. Nichols" wrote:
On 2010-10-12, J *D *Slocomb wrote:

On 11 Oct 2010 23:30:03 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2010-10-11, Gunner Asch wrote:

* * * * [ ... ]

And it tells the other side when its empty.

* * * *I don't think that anything tells the other side that more than
a Luger. :-) (I guess that you could paint the toggle links day-glo
orange or something, but even without that, it is still pretty obvious,
even to the person you are pointing it at.

* * * *Is the Garrand empty status more visible to someone off to the
side? *Does it perhaps drop the magazine automatically? *(I've never had
one of those to play with -- just the 98 Mauser, and the SKS for long
guns.)

* * * * [ ... ]

He is talking about the rather distinctive "ting" the Garand makes
when it ejects the empty clip. This story has been going round and
round probably since the days that the Garand was accepted and makes
perfect sense - there you are in the middle of a fire fight - 50
people shooting guns, grenades exploding, machine guns blasting away
and you fire your last round and the rifle ejects the clip - Ting.

Immediately the enemy, hearing that noise, amid the sounds of battle,
and knowing that your rifle is empty leap to their feet and charge
your position as they now know that your weapon is empty.....

* * * * Hmm ... how likely are they to hear that with all the other
noise sources around you that you just described?

* * * * And in a battle, would there not be others near you who were not
yet empty?

And, given that you can load 8 rounds into a Garand faster then you
can load 7 into a colt 1911 you can see that the enemy has a plenty of
time to come and get you.

* * * * It doesn't take long to put a full magazine into the 1911 if you
aren't worried about saving the empty magazine -- or are you talking
about the time needed to fill an empty magazine? *Did the Garand use a
stripper clip, or something which shoved into the underside of the
action?

* * * * Thanks,
* * * * * * * * DoN.


8 round en-bloc clip, loading through the top. It's a true clip, not
a magazine or charger. Faster to shove it in than to talk about it.
Bolt locks open at the last shot, closes after the new clip latches
in. Dubs got 'M1 thumb' if they didn't know how to load it. Hi-tech
for the '20s when it was developed. Given that most opponents were
still using bolt guns with 5 shot magazines and stripper clips, I
wouldn't have felt under-gunned. It would have been a lot more
interesting if it had been adopted in the ,276 Pedersen it was
originally designed for. 10 shots, lighter, maybe shorter. "Dugout
Doug" had the last word on that, so .30 cal.

Stan

On Mon, 11 Oct 2010 22:14:12 -0500, Pete Keillor
wrote:

On 12 Oct 2010 02:27:58 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2010-10-12, J D Slocomb wrote:
On 11 Oct 2010 23:30:03 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2010-10-11, Gunner Asch wrote:

[ ... ]

And it tells the other side when its empty.

I don't think that anything tells the other side that more than
a Luger. :-) (I guess that you could paint the toggle links day-glo
orange or something, but even without that, it is still pretty obvious,
even to the person you are pointing it at.

Is the Garrand empty status more visible to someone off to the
side? Does it perhaps drop the magazine automatically? (I've never had
one of those to play with -- just the 98 Mauser, and the SKS for long
guns.)

[ ... ]

He is talking about the rather distinctive "ting" the Garand makes
when it ejects the empty clip. This story has been going round and
round probably since the days that the Garand was accepted and makes
perfect sense - there you are in the middle of a fire fight - 50
people shooting guns, grenades exploding, machine guns blasting away
and you fire your last round and the rifle ejects the clip - Ting.

Immediately the enemy, hearing that noise, amid the sounds of battle,
and knowing that your rifle is empty leap to their feet and charge
your position as they now know that your weapon is empty.....

Hmm ... how likely are they to hear that with all the other
noise sources around you that you just described?

And in a battle, would there not be others near you who were not
yet empty?

And, given that you can load 8 rounds into a Garand faster then you
can load 7 into a colt 1911 you can see that the enemy has a plenty of
time to come and get you.

It doesn't take long to put a full magazine into the 1911 if you
aren't worried about saving the empty magazine -- or are you talking
about the time needed to fill an empty magazine? Did the Garand use a
stripper clip, or something which shoved into the underside of the
action?

Thanks,
DoN.

Stripper, I think (don't own one). They were loaded through the open
bolt, not by a magazine. That's basically the M14, a selective fire
Garand with box magazines.

I'd heard that savvy GI's (those still alive 3 days after delivery
from the repple depple) learned to save the empty clips and throw one
on the ground after firing a shot if they wanted to lure out the
opposition. That'd pretty quick make it a non-issue.

Pete Keillor

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wvUkaU-bCM

G

Gunner


I am the Sword of my Family
and the Shield of my Nation.
If sent, I will crush everything you have built,
burn everything you love,
and kill every one of you.
(Hebrew quote)

Pete Keillor on Mon, 11 Oct 2010 22:14:12
-0500 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

He is talking about the rather distinctive "ting" the Garand makes
when it ejects the empty clip. This story has been going round and
round probably since the days that the Garand was accepted and makes
perfect sense - there you are in the middle of a fire fight - 50
people shooting guns, grenades exploding, machine guns blasting away
and you fire your last round and the rifle ejects the clip - Ting.

Immediately the enemy, hearing that noise, amid the sounds of battle,
and knowing that your rifle is empty leap to their feet and charge
your position as they now know that your weapon is empty.....

Hmm ... how likely are they to hear that with all the other
noise sources around you that you just described?

And in a battle, would there not be others near you who were not
yet empty?

And, given that you can load 8 rounds into a Garand faster then you
can load 7 into a colt 1911 you can see that the enemy has a plenty of
time to come and get you.

It doesn't take long to put a full magazine into the 1911 if you
aren't worried about saving the empty magazine -- or are you talking
about the time needed to fill an empty magazine?

It is only recently that the Army has decided that issuing the
line troops side arms is a good thing. I believe the practice is what
is called a "New York Speed loader" - also known as "having another
gun". Even on a bad day, it's faster than trying to clear a jam, or
reload a fresh magazine.

Did the Garand use a
stripper clip, or something which shoved into the underside of the
action?

Stripper, I think (don't own one).

"En Bloc" clip. Held eight rounds, the whole assembly was loaded
from the top. Quick, easy - but you could not "top off" the load. And
when the last round was fired, the "clip" made a little "ting" sound
as it is ejects from the rifle. Time to grab another clip and insert
the whole thing.
The advantage to the detachable box magazine,is that you can
detach it, "top off" and reload, giving you ten rounds plus the one in
the chamber. And, with practice, you can get fast at swapping out
magazines.

They were loaded through the open
bolt, not by a magazine.

That's basically the M14, a selective fire
Garand with box magazines.

I'd heard that savvy GI's (those still alive 3 days after delivery
from the repple depple) learned to save the empty clips and throw one
on the ground after firing a shot if they wanted to lure out the
opposition. That'd pretty quick make it a non-issue.

If they lived that long.
--
pyotr filipivich
We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!

On Mon, 11 Oct 2010 23:23:33 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:


It doesn't take long to put a full magazine into the 1911 if you
aren't worried about saving the empty magazine -- or are you talking
about the time needed to fill an empty magazine?

It is only recently that the Army has decided that issuing the
line troops side arms is a good thing. I believe the practice is what
is called a "New York Speed loader" - also known as "having another
gun". Even on a bad day, it's faster than trying to clear a jam, or
reload a fresh magazine.


On the other hand...it takes a finite amount of time to realize the
weapon in your hand is empty, and to draw the second one, and ready it
to fire.

A proper magazine change can be done in far far less than 1 second.

Gunner


I am the Sword of my Family
and the Shield of my Nation.
If sent, I will crush everything you have built,
burn everything you love,
and kill every one of you.
(Hebrew quote)

In article ,
says...

On 11 Oct 2010 23:30:03 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2010-10-11, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Mon, 11 Oct 2010 00:40:19 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

[ ... ]

However I do wonder what qualifies the Garand as less of a "battle
rifle" and more of a "target rifle" than the Lee-Enfield.

Because the Lee Enfield can be buried in mud, used to pry out a Bren
carrier and then used as a tent pole, and when needed, it will fire

The Garand...unfortunately...wont fire when treated that way. Least not
more than once.

Not seeing the quoted post, so responding here.

Do us a favor. Get a Lee Enfield. Fill the bore up with mud and bend
the barrel. Now shoot it. Get back to us when you get out of the
hospital.

Plus it holds 3 rounds less than the LE

So how fast can each get 30 rounds downrange?

And it tells the other side when its empty.

So what good does that do them? You are conflating an infantry battle
with home defense.

I don't think that anything tells the other side that more than
a Luger. :-) (I guess that you could paint the toggle links day-glo
orange or something, but even without that, it is still pretty obvious,
even to the person you are pointing it at.

Is the Garrand empty status more visible to someone off to the
side? Does it perhaps drop the magazine automatically? (I've never had
one of those to play with -- just the 98 Mauser, and the SKS for long
guns.)

The Garand uses a clip, not a detachable magazine. You push the clip
with 8 rounds down into the top then close the bolt. When it's empty it
tosses the clip up in the air and makes a little noise. If you're in a
situation where you really think that that would be disastrous, you load
it without the clip (it doesn't _need_ the clip, it's just a fast way to
get 8 rounds into it).

This was addressed in the M-14 which uses a detachable box magazine.


Enjoy,
DoN.

He is talking about the rather distinctive "ting" the Garand makes
when it ejects the empty clip. This story has been going round and
round probably since the days that the Garand was accepted and makes
perfect sense - there you are in the middle of a fire fight - 50
people shooting guns, grenades exploding, machine guns blasting away
and you fire your last round and the rifle ejects the clip - Ting.

Immediately the enemy, hearing that noise, amid the sounds of battle,
and knowing that your rifle is empty leap to their feet and charge
your position as they now know that your weapon is empty.....

And, given that you can load 8 rounds into a Garand faster then you
can load 7 into a colt 1911 you can see that the enemy has a plenty of
time to come and get you.

Besides, the scream when it bites your thumb will be more evidence that
it's been empty than the ting from the clip ejecting

In article , keillorp135
@chartermi.net says...

On 12 Oct 2010 02:27:58 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2010-10-12, J D Slocomb wrote:
On 11 Oct 2010 23:30:03 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2010-10-11, Gunner Asch wrote:

[ ... ]

And it tells the other side when its empty.

I don't think that anything tells the other side that more than
a Luger. :-) (I guess that you could paint the toggle links day-glo
orange or something, but even without that, it is still pretty obvious,
even to the person you are pointing it at.

Is the Garrand empty status more visible to someone off to the
side? Does it perhaps drop the magazine automatically? (I've never had
one of those to play with -- just the 98 Mauser, and the SKS for long
guns.)

[ ... ]

He is talking about the rather distinctive "ting" the Garand makes
when it ejects the empty clip. This story has been going round and
round probably since the days that the Garand was accepted and makes
perfect sense - there you are in the middle of a fire fight - 50
people shooting guns, grenades exploding, machine guns blasting away
and you fire your last round and the rifle ejects the clip - Ting.

Immediately the enemy, hearing that noise, amid the sounds of battle,
and knowing that your rifle is empty leap to their feet and charge
your position as they now know that your weapon is empty.....

Hmm ... how likely are they to hear that with all the other
noise sources around you that you just described?

And in a battle, would there not be others near you who were not
yet empty?

And, given that you can load 8 rounds into a Garand faster then you
can load 7 into a colt 1911 you can see that the enemy has a plenty of
time to come and get you.

It doesn't take long to put a full magazine into the 1911 if you
aren't worried about saving the empty magazine -- or are you talking
about the time needed to fill an empty magazine? Did the Garand use a
stripper clip, or something which shoved into the underside of the
action?

Thanks,
DoN.

Stripper, I think (don't own one). They were loaded through the open
bolt, not by a magazine. That's basically the M14, a selective fire
Garand with box magazines.

Not a stripper.

Here's a loaded clip: http://www.flickr.com/photos/wmode/3180290823/

Here's what happens after the last round fires--the black object above
the shooter's head is the clip
http://www.flickr.com/photos/phoenix6/4766841786/.

I'd heard that savvy GI's (those still alive 3 days after delivery
from the repple depple) learned to save the empty clips and throw one
on the ground after firing a shot if they wanted to lure out the
opposition. That'd pretty quick make it a non-issue.

Pete Keillor

In article , says...

On 10/10/2010 11:40 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
In , says...

On 10/9/2010 3:38 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:

"Americans went to war with target rifles
Germans went war with hunting rifles
Brits went to war with battle rifles"

Russians went to war with tractors

G

Gunner

And the T34/76 was a really GOOD tractor!

However I do wonder what qualifies the Garand as less of a "battle
rifle" and more of a "target rifle" than the Lee-Enfield.

Aside from the rear sight being unnecessarily complicated, the Garand
couldn't take nearly as much combat abuse and keep firing.

You have actual examples of Enfields and Garands undergoing the same
"combat abuse" side by side and the Enfield working and the Garand not?

If your ammo
supply came in belts or 5 round clips, as it might, you had a single
shot rifle.

One can make the same argument against the Enfield. The Garand doesn't
_need_ the clip, it's just more convenient to load it that way. In any
case, the clips are easily reloadable.

On 12 Oct 2010 02:27:58 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2010-10-12, J D Slocomb wrote:
On 11 Oct 2010 23:30:03 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2010-10-11, Gunner Asch wrote:

[ ... ]

And it tells the other side when its empty.

I don't think that anything tells the other side that more than
a Luger. :-) (I guess that you could paint the toggle links day-glo
orange or something, but even without that, it is still pretty obvious,
even to the person you are pointing it at.

Is the Garrand empty status more visible to someone off to the
side? Does it perhaps drop the magazine automatically? (I've never had
one of those to play with -- just the 98 Mauser, and the SKS for long
guns.)

[ ... ]

He is talking about the rather distinctive "ting" the Garand makes
when it ejects the empty clip. This story has been going round and
round probably since the days that the Garand was accepted and makes
perfect sense - there you are in the middle of a fire fight - 50
people shooting guns, grenades exploding, machine guns blasting away
and you fire your last round and the rifle ejects the clip - Ting.

Immediately the enemy, hearing that noise, amid the sounds of battle,
and knowing that your rifle is empty leap to their feet and charge
your position as they now know that your weapon is empty.....

Hmm ... how likely are they to hear that with all the other
noise sources around you that you just described?

And in a battle, would there not be others near you who were not
yet empty?

And, given that you can load 8 rounds into a Garand faster then you
can load 7 into a colt 1911 you can see that the enemy has a plenty of
time to come and get you.

It doesn't take long to put a full magazine into the 1911 if you
aren't worried about saving the empty magazine -- or are you talking
about the time needed to fill an empty magazine? Did the Garand use a
stripper clip, or something which shoved into the underside of the
action?

Thanks,
DoN.


The Garand used/uses a clip, for want of a better word, that holds 8
rounds in a double column. The clip and cartridges are loaded en block
into the top of the open action. Pressing the clip into the action
releases the bolt to go into battery stripping the first cartridge
from the clip and into the chamber. After 8 rounds are fired the
action ejects the empty clip and the bolt stays open. Pressing another
loaded clip into the action causes the bolt to go closed, stripping
the first round from the strip, and so on.

Cheers,

John D. Slocomb
(jdslocombatgmail)

On Mon, 11 Oct 2010 22:14:12 -0500, Pete Keillor
wrote:

On 12 Oct 2010 02:27:58 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2010-10-12, J D Slocomb wrote:
On 11 Oct 2010 23:30:03 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2010-10-11, Gunner Asch wrote:

[ ... ]

And it tells the other side when its empty.

I don't think that anything tells the other side that more than
a Luger. :-) (I guess that you could paint the toggle links day-glo
orange or something, but even without that, it is still pretty obvious,
even to the person you are pointing it at.

Is the Garrand empty status more visible to someone off to the
side? Does it perhaps drop the magazine automatically? (I've never had
one of those to play with -- just the 98 Mauser, and the SKS for long
guns.)

[ ... ]

He is talking about the rather distinctive "ting" the Garand makes
when it ejects the empty clip. This story has been going round and
round probably since the days that the Garand was accepted and makes
perfect sense - there you are in the middle of a fire fight - 50
people shooting guns, grenades exploding, machine guns blasting away
and you fire your last round and the rifle ejects the clip - Ting.

Immediately the enemy, hearing that noise, amid the sounds of battle,
and knowing that your rifle is empty leap to their feet and charge
your position as they now know that your weapon is empty.....

Hmm ... how likely are they to hear that with all the other
noise sources around you that you just described?

And in a battle, would there not be others near you who were not
yet empty?

And, given that you can load 8 rounds into a Garand faster then you
can load 7 into a colt 1911 you can see that the enemy has a plenty of
time to come and get you.

It doesn't take long to put a full magazine into the 1911 if you
aren't worried about saving the empty magazine -- or are you talking
about the time needed to fill an empty magazine? Did the Garand use a
stripper clip, or something which shoved into the underside of the
action?

Thanks,
DoN.

Stripper, I think (don't own one). They were loaded through the open
bolt, not by a magazine. That's basically the M14, a selective fire
Garand with box magazines.

It is not a stripper clip. The Garand clip, viewed from the top, is a
sort of "U" shaped sheetmetal device that enfolds the 8 cartridges and
the cartridges and clip are simply shoved into the top of the action
and lock in place when the reach the bottom of the magazine well. At
the same time this releases the bolt to go into battery stripping the
first round from the clip.

As the rifle won't function without the clip in place so when shooting
rapid fire strings in a rifle match, that require a 10 round string, a
clip and two loose rounds are loaded in the receiver.

I'd heard that savvy GI's (those still alive 3 days after delivery
from the repple depple) learned to save the empty clips and throw one
on the ground after firing a shot if they wanted to lure out the
opposition. That'd pretty quick make it a non-issue.

Pete Keillor

Frankly I doubt that as this as it would really require a one on one
situation in nearly silent conditions.

However, the Armory did experiment with plastic clips in WW II, for
whatever reason, but this appear not to have not been pursued.

Cheers,

John D. Slocomb
(jdslocombatgmail)

Gunner Asch on Tue, 12 Oct 2010 01:05:08 -0700
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Mon, 11 Oct 2010 23:23:33 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:
It doesn't take long to put a full magazine into the 1911 if you
aren't worried about saving the empty magazine -- or are you talking
about the time needed to fill an empty magazine?

It is only recently that the Army has decided that issuing the
line troops side arms is a good thing. I believe the practice is what
is called a "New York Speed loader" - also known as "having another
gun". Even on a bad day, it's faster than trying to clear a jam, or
reload a fresh magazine.

On the other hand...it takes a finite amount of time to realize the
weapon in your hand is empty, and to draw the second one, and ready it
to fire.

True, but the thinking seems to be, when the gun goes "click,
click, click", then reload, or if no reload, then go to the other gun.
Assuming you have an "other gun".
What I got to practice a lot was clearing jams ... we suspect that
the magazine I had brought was bad, and did not play well with his
rifle. So I cleared jams or went to the back up - "the drill isn't
over till he's holding two". Sergeants can be so 'unreasonable' that
way, at times. B-)

And, we are talking about _my_ experience, with rifles I don't get
enough practice with to have all the motions in muscle memory.

A proper magazine change can be done in far far less than 1 second.

True, I'm sure.

Given my druthers, I'd rather have a belt fed gunny sergeant to
aim at my enemies. But I can't always get what I want.


tschus
pyotr
--
pyotr filipivich
We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!

In article ,
says...

Gunner Asch on Tue, 12 Oct 2010 01:05:08 -0700
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Mon, 11 Oct 2010 23:23:33 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:
It doesn't take long to put a full magazine into the 1911 if you
aren't worried about saving the empty magazine -- or are you talking
about the time needed to fill an empty magazine?

It is only recently that the Army has decided that issuing the
line troops side arms is a good thing. I believe the practice is what
is called a "New York Speed loader" - also known as "having another
gun". Even on a bad day, it's faster than trying to clear a jam, or
reload a fresh magazine.

On the other hand...it takes a finite amount of time to realize the
weapon in your hand is empty, and to draw the second one, and ready it
to fire.

Another benefit to the Garand. When that clip pops out there's no
question that it's time to reload.

True, but the thinking seems to be, when the gun goes "click,
click, click", then reload, or if no reload, then go to the other gun.
Assuming you have an "other gun".

Colts and Garands don't go "click, click, click". They go click once
and then you can haul on the trigger with a hydraulic press and you
won't get another.

What I got to practice a lot was clearing jams ... we suspect that
the magazine I had brought was bad, and did not play well with his
rifle. So I cleared jams or went to the back up - "the drill isn't
over till he's holding two". Sergeants can be so 'unreasonable' that
way, at times. B-)

And, we are talking about _my_ experience, with rifles I don't get
enough practice with to have all the motions in muscle memory.

A proper magazine change can be done in far far less than 1 second.

True, I'm sure.

Given my druthers, I'd rather have a belt fed gunny sergeant to
aim at my enemies. But I can't always get what I want.


tschus
pyotr

On Tue, 12 Oct 2010 06:29:29 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In article ,
says...

On 11 Oct 2010 23:30:03 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2010-10-11, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Mon, 11 Oct 2010 00:40:19 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

[ ... ]

However I do wonder what qualifies the Garand as less of a "battle
rifle" and more of a "target rifle" than the Lee-Enfield.

Because the Lee Enfield can be buried in mud, used to pry out a Bren
carrier and then used as a tent pole, and when needed, it will fire

The Garand...unfortunately...wont fire when treated that way. Least not
more than once.

Not seeing the quoted post, so responding here.

Do us a favor. Get a Lee Enfield. Fill the bore up with mud and bend
the barrel. Now shoot it. Get back to us when you get out of the
hospital.

Get a Garand. Repeat the test. Have your widow notify the group.

This means what exactly? Or are you desperately seeking something to be
right about?

Plus it holds 3 rounds less than the LE

So how fast can each get 30 rounds downrange?

Isnt Aimed Fire the key to winning a battle? Or am I mistaken?

And it tells the other side when its empty.

So what good does that do them? You are conflating an infantry battle
with home defense.

I tossed that one in as a laugher for those who actually do know the
Garand. G

I don't think that anything tells the other side that more than
a Luger. :-) (I guess that you could paint the toggle links day-glo
orange or something, but even without that, it is still pretty obvious,
even to the person you are pointing it at.

Is the Garrand empty status more visible to someone off to the
side? Does it perhaps drop the magazine automatically? (I've never had
one of those to play with -- just the 98 Mauser, and the SKS for long
guns.)

The Garand uses a clip, not a detachable magazine. You push the clip
with 8 rounds down into the top then close the bolt. When it's empty it
tosses the clip up in the air and makes a little noise. If you're in a
situation where you really think that that would be disastrous, you load
it without the clip (it doesn't _need_ the clip, it's just a fast way to
get 8 rounds into it).

This was addressed in the M-14 which uses a detachable box magazine.


Enjoy,
DoN.

He is talking about the rather distinctive "ting" the Garand makes
when it ejects the empty clip. This story has been going round and
round probably since the days that the Garand was accepted and makes
perfect sense - there you are in the middle of a fire fight - 50
people shooting guns, grenades exploding, machine guns blasting away
and you fire your last round and the rifle ejects the clip - Ting.

Immediately the enemy, hearing that noise, amid the sounds of battle,
and knowing that your rifle is empty leap to their feet and charge
your position as they now know that your weapon is empty.....

And, given that you can load 8 rounds into a Garand faster then you
can load 7 into a colt 1911 you can see that the enemy has a plenty of
time to come and get you.

Faster? Hardly.

Besides, the scream when it bites your thumb will be more evidence that
it's been empty than the ting from the clip ejecting

VBG

Gunner



I am the Sword of my Family
and the Shield of my Nation.
If sent, I will crush everything you have built,
burn everything you love,
and kill every one of you.
(Hebrew quote)

On Tue, 12 Oct 2010 06:39:39 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In article , says...

On 10/10/2010 11:40 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
In , says...

On 10/9/2010 3:38 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:

"Americans went to war with target rifles
Germans went war with hunting rifles
Brits went to war with battle rifles"

Russians went to war with tractors

G

Gunner

And the T34/76 was a really GOOD tractor!

However I do wonder what qualifies the Garand as less of a "battle
rifle" and more of a "target rifle" than the Lee-Enfield.

Aside from the rear sight being unnecessarily complicated, the Garand
couldn't take nearly as much combat abuse and keep firing.

You have actual examples of Enfields and Garands undergoing the same
"combat abuse" side by side and the Enfield working and the Garand not?

Several. Ill have to find the links for you.

If your ammo
supply came in belts or 5 round clips, as it might, you had a single
shot rifle.

One can make the same argument against the Enfield. The Garand doesn't
_need_ the clip, it's just more convenient to load it that way. In any
case, the clips are easily reloadable.


The Garand....without the clip...becomes a single shot.

Blink blink

Gunner


I am the Sword of my Family
and the Shield of my Nation.
If sent, I will crush everything you have built,
burn everything you love,
and kill every one of you.
(Hebrew quote)

"J. Clarke" on Tue, 12 Oct 2010 15:02:21 -0400
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

On the other hand...it takes a finite amount of time to realize the
weapon in your hand is empty, and to draw the second one, and ready it
to fire.

Another benefit to the Garand. When that clip pops out there's no
question that it's time to reload.

That it does.

True, but the thinking seems to be, when the gun goes "click,
click, click", then reload, or if no reload, then go to the other gun.
Assuming you have an "other gun".

Colts and Garands don't go "click, click, click". They go click once
and then you can haul on the trigger with a hydraulic press and you
won't get another.

That maybe true. But one thing which has been documented over the
course of centuries - the number of times a man may pull on a trigger
and have the gun not fire, and him not notice. I believe a record of
sorts was set during the Battle of Gettysburg, where one rifle was
recovered with eleven rounds loaded in the barrel. The assumption has
been made that he didn't put the percussion cap on the nipple, and
never noticed that the rifle didn't go "boom" when he pulled the
trigger.
--
pyotr filipivich
We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!

In article ,
says...

"J. Clarke" on Tue, 12 Oct 2010 15:02:21 -0400
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

On the other hand...it takes a finite amount of time to realize the
weapon in your hand is empty, and to draw the second one, and ready it
to fire.

Another benefit to the Garand. When that clip pops out there's no
question that it's time to reload.

That it does.

True, but the thinking seems to be, when the gun goes "click,
click, click", then reload, or if no reload, then go to the other gun.
Assuming you have an "other gun".

Colts and Garands don't go "click, click, click". They go click once
and then you can haul on the trigger with a hydraulic press and you
won't get another.

That maybe true. But one thing which has been documented over the
course of centuries - the number of times a man may pull on a trigger
and have the gun not fire, and him not notice. I believe a record of
sorts was set during the Battle of Gettysburg, where one rifle was
recovered with eleven rounds loaded in the barrel. The assumption has
been made that he didn't put the percussion cap on the nipple, and
never noticed that the rifle didn't go "boom" when he pulled the
trigger.

Which is just as well, with 11 loads in it the "boom" would have been
spectacular and done more harm to his side than the other.

On Tue, 12 Oct 2010 15:02:21 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In article ,
says...

Gunner Asch on Tue, 12 Oct 2010 01:05:08 -0700
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Mon, 11 Oct 2010 23:23:33 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:
It doesn't take long to put a full magazine into the 1911 if you
aren't worried about saving the empty magazine -- or are you talking
about the time needed to fill an empty magazine?

It is only recently that the Army has decided that issuing the
line troops side arms is a good thing. I believe the practice is what
is called a "New York Speed loader" - also known as "having another
gun". Even on a bad day, it's faster than trying to clear a jam, or
reload a fresh magazine.

On the other hand...it takes a finite amount of time to realize the
weapon in your hand is empty, and to draw the second one, and ready it
to fire.

Another benefit to the Garand. When that clip pops out there's no
question that it's time to reload.

True indeed. On the other hand...refilling the magazine with a couple
rounds is nearly impossible.

True, but the thinking seems to be, when the gun goes "click,
click, click", then reload, or if no reload, then go to the other gun.
Assuming you have an "other gun".

Colts and Garands don't go "click, click, click". They go click once
and then you can haul on the trigger with a hydraulic press and you
won't get another.

Very true.

What I got to practice a lot was clearing jams ... we suspect that
the magazine I had brought was bad, and did not play well with his
rifle. So I cleared jams or went to the back up - "the drill isn't
over till he's holding two". Sergeants can be so 'unreasonable' that
way, at times. B-)

And, we are talking about _my_ experience, with rifles I don't get
enough practice with to have all the motions in muscle memory.

A proper magazine change can be done in far far less than 1 second.

True, I'm sure.

Given my druthers, I'd rather have a belt fed gunny sergeant to
aim at my enemies. But I can't always get what I want.


tschus
pyotr



I am the Sword of my Family
and the Shield of my Nation.
If sent, I will crush everything you have built,
burn everything you love,
and kill every one of you.
(Hebrew quote)

On 2010-10-12, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Mon, 11 Oct 2010 22:14:12 -0500, Pete Keillor
wrote:

On 12 Oct 2010 02:27:58 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

[ ... ]

Hmm ... how likely are they to hear that with all the other
noise sources around you that you just described?

And in a battle, would there not be others near you who were not
yet empty?

And, given that you can load 8 rounds into a Garand faster then you
can load 7 into a colt 1911 you can see that the enemy has a plenty of
time to come and get you.

[ ... ]

Stripper, I think (don't own one). They were loaded through the open
bolt, not by a magazine. That's basically the M14, a selective fire
Garand with box magazines.

I'd heard that savvy GI's (those still alive 3 days after delivery
from the repple depple) learned to save the empty clips and throw one
on the ground after firing a shot if they wanted to lure out the
opposition. That'd pretty quick make it a non-issue.

Pete Keillor

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wvUkaU-bCM

O.K. Looking at that shows that it is quite different from the
stripper clips used by either the '98 Mauser or the SKS, which you would
toss (or save) as soon as you thumbed the stack of cartridges into the
permanent magazine -- and big enough to make a significant noise, too.

Yes, I can see how that would be a problem in combat.

Thanks,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On 2010-10-12, J. Clarke wrote:
In article ,
says...

[ ... ]

Another benefit to the Garand. When that clip pops out there's no
question that it's time to reload.

True, but the thinking seems to be, when the gun goes "click,
click, click", then reload, or if no reload, then go to the other gun.
Assuming you have an "other gun".

Colts and Garands don't go "click, click, click". They go click once
and then you can haul on the trigger with a hydraulic press and you
won't get another.

I don't know about the Garand, but the 1911A1 locks the slide
back when the magazine is empty, so you won't even get that first click
until you either release the slide lock or swap in a new magazine and
release the slide lock (which makes more sense, since the first one
won't lock up until it *is* empty. :-)

That slide locked open makes it just that much quicker to get
the first round chambered from the new magazine.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 12 Oct 2010 15:02:21 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In article ,
says...

Gunner Asch on Tue, 12 Oct 2010 01:05:08 -0700
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Mon, 11 Oct 2010 23:23:33 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:
It doesn't take long to put a full magazine into the 1911 if you
aren't worried about saving the empty magazine -- or are you talking
about the time needed to fill an empty magazine?

It is only recently that the Army has decided that issuing the
line troops side arms is a good thing. I believe the practice is what
is called a "New York Speed loader" - also known as "having another
gun". Even on a bad day, it's faster than trying to clear a jam, or
reload a fresh magazine.

On the other hand...it takes a finite amount of time to realize the
weapon in your hand is empty, and to draw the second one, and ready it
to fire.

Another benefit to the Garand. When that clip pops out there's no
question that it's time to reload.

True indeed. On the other hand...refilling the magazine with a couple
rounds is nearly impossible.

True, but the thinking seems to be, when the gun goes "click,
click, click", then reload, or if no reload, then go to the other gun.
Assuming you have an "other gun".

Colts and Garands don't go "click, click, click". They go click once
and then you can haul on the trigger with a hydraulic press and you
won't get another.

Very true.

What I got to practice a lot was clearing jams ... we suspect that
the magazine I had brought was bad, and did not play well with his
rifle. So I cleared jams or went to the back up - "the drill isn't
over till he's holding two". Sergeants can be so 'unreasonable' that
way, at times. B-)

And, we are talking about _my_ experience, with rifles I don't get
enough practice with to have all the motions in muscle memory.

A proper magazine change can be done in far far less than 1 second.

True, I'm sure.

Given my druthers, I'd rather have a belt fed gunny sergeant to
aim at my enemies. But I can't always get what I want.


tschus
pyotr



I am the Sword of my Family
and the Shield of my Nation.
If sent, I will crush everything you have built,
burn everything you love,
and kill every one of you.
(Hebrew quote)

that is true, and they did reload magazines on the Garand. If you get an
old Garand with dimples on the stock, it was either in combat or used by a
combat veteran. they banged the clip against the stock to make sure all the
rounds were seated in the magazine.

On 13 Oct 2010 01:26:14 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2010-10-12, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Mon, 11 Oct 2010 22:14:12 -0500, Pete Keillor
wrote:

On 12 Oct 2010 02:27:58 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

[ ... ]

Hmm ... how likely are they to hear that with all the other
noise sources around you that you just described?

And in a battle, would there not be others near you who were not
yet empty?

And, given that you can load 8 rounds into a Garand faster then you
can load 7 into a colt 1911 you can see that the enemy has a plenty of
time to come and get you.

[ ... ]

Stripper, I think (don't own one). They were loaded through the open
bolt, not by a magazine. That's basically the M14, a selective fire
Garand with box magazines.

I'd heard that savvy GI's (those still alive 3 days after delivery
from the repple depple) learned to save the empty clips and throw one
on the ground after firing a shot if they wanted to lure out the
opposition. That'd pretty quick make it a non-issue.

Pete Keillor

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wvUkaU-bCM

O.K. Looking at that shows that it is quite different from the
stripper clips used by either the '98 Mauser or the SKS, which you would
toss (or save) as soon as you thumbed the stack of cartridges into the
permanent magazine -- and big enough to make a significant noise, too.

Yes, I can see how that would be a problem in combat.

Thanks,
DoN.


G

As others have mentioned...its not all that bad..or noticable in most
combat applications, but its hardly as Marvelous as they would have you
believe.

Rapid fire is great. Aimed fire is even better.

G

Gunner


I am the Sword of my Family
and the Shield of my Nation.
If sent, I will crush everything you have built,
burn everything you love,
and kill every one of you.
(Hebrew quote)

On Tue, 12 Oct 2010 20:26:26 -0700, "Califbill"
wrote:



"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 12 Oct 2010 15:02:21 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In article ,
says...

Gunner Asch on Tue, 12 Oct 2010 01:05:08 -0700
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Mon, 11 Oct 2010 23:23:33 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:
It doesn't take long to put a full magazine into the 1911 if you
aren't worried about saving the empty magazine -- or are you talking
about the time needed to fill an empty magazine?

It is only recently that the Army has decided that issuing the
line troops side arms is a good thing. I believe the practice is what
is called a "New York Speed loader" - also known as "having another
gun". Even on a bad day, it's faster than trying to clear a jam, or
reload a fresh magazine.

On the other hand...it takes a finite amount of time to realize the
weapon in your hand is empty, and to draw the second one, and ready it
to fire.

Another benefit to the Garand. When that clip pops out there's no
question that it's time to reload.

True indeed. On the other hand...refilling the magazine with a couple
rounds is nearly impossible.

True, but the thinking seems to be, when the gun goes "click,
click, click", then reload, or if no reload, then go to the other gun.
Assuming you have an "other gun".

Colts and Garands don't go "click, click, click". They go click once
and then you can haul on the trigger with a hydraulic press and you
won't get another.

Very true.

What I got to practice a lot was clearing jams ... we suspect that
the magazine I had brought was bad, and did not play well with his
rifle. So I cleared jams or went to the back up - "the drill isn't
over till he's holding two". Sergeants can be so 'unreasonable' that
way, at times. B-)

And, we are talking about _my_ experience, with rifles I don't get
enough practice with to have all the motions in muscle memory.

A proper magazine change can be done in far far less than 1 second.

True, I'm sure.

Given my druthers, I'd rather have a belt fed gunny sergeant to
aim at my enemies. But I can't always get what I want.


tschus
pyotr



I am the Sword of my Family
and the Shield of my Nation.
If sent, I will crush everything you have built,
burn everything you love,
and kill every one of you.
(Hebrew quote)

that is true, and they did reload magazines on the Garand. If you get an
old Garand with dimples on the stock, it was either in combat or used by a
combat veteran. they banged the clip against the stock to make sure all the
rounds were seated in the magazine.


Ayup.

Later versions of military arms using removable magazines generally got
banged on the helmet.

Gunner


I am the Sword of my Family
and the Shield of my Nation.
If sent, I will crush everything you have built,
burn everything you love,
and kill every one of you.
(Hebrew quote)

"DoN. Nichols" on 13 Oct 2010 01:32:04 GMT
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:


Another benefit to the Garand. When that clip pops out there's no
question that it's time to reload.

True, but the thinking seems to be, when the gun goes "click,
click, click", then reload, or if no reload, then go to the other gun.
Assuming you have an "other gun".

Colts and Garands don't go "click, click, click". They go click once
and then you can haul on the trigger with a hydraulic press and you
won't get another.

I don't know about the Garand, but the 1911A1 locks the slide
back when the magazine is empty, so you won't even get that first click
until you either release the slide lock or swap in a new magazine and
release the slide lock (which makes more sense, since the first one
won't lock up until it *is* empty. :-)

That slide locked open makes it just that much quicker to get
the first round chambered from the new magazine.

True - but I've been so focused on shooting, that I didn't really
notice the slide was locked back till I pulled the trigger - "hu-waah?
Oh! reload time."
And insufficient grease in a Browning 9mm, lets you practice
clearing jams, too.
--
pyotr filipivich
We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!

On Tue, 12 Oct 2010 12:40:41 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Tue, 12 Oct 2010 06:29:29 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In article ,
says...

On 11 Oct 2010 23:30:03 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2010-10-11, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Mon, 11 Oct 2010 00:40:19 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

[ ... ]

However I do wonder what qualifies the Garand as less of a "battle
rifle" and more of a "target rifle" than the Lee-Enfield.

Because the Lee Enfield can be buried in mud, used to pry out a Bren
carrier and then used as a tent pole, and when needed, it will fire

The Garand...unfortunately...wont fire when treated that way. Least not
more than once.

Not seeing the quoted post, so responding here.

Do us a favor. Get a Lee Enfield. Fill the bore up with mud and bend
the barrel. Now shoot it. Get back to us when you get out of the
hospital.

Get a Garand. Repeat the test. Have your widow notify the group.

This means what exactly? Or are you desperately seeking something to be
right about?

Plus it holds 3 rounds less than the LE

So how fast can each get 30 rounds downrange?

Isnt Aimed Fire the key to winning a battle? Or am I mistaken?


Probably not now and never has been.

The battle of Aquincourt, for example, where victory was attributed to
the English long bow, was primarily a matter of volley fire by massed
archers at long range.
During American Civil War (I believe the first example of rifled arms
used as primary weapons) at the Battle of First Bull Run it has been
estimated that between 8,000 and 10,000 rounds were fired for every
soldier killed or wounded.
In more modern times the Australians reporting on the Battle of
Longtan stated that the entire battle took place in an area
approximately the size of two football fields, an estimated 400,000
rounds of small arms ammunition (combined both sides) was expanded as
well as 3,500 rounds of artillery. The artillery fired nearly
continuously for 5 hours, equal to approximately 30 bullets per sq.
yd. and one shell per 4 sq. yd. over the entire battle field.
Total estimated casualties, killed and wounded, (Total both sides) was
1830. A minimum of 218 rounds of small arms ammunition expended per
casualty, assuming some causalities due to artillery fire.



And it tells the other side when its empty.

So what good does that do them? You are conflating an infantry battle
with home defense.

I tossed that one in as a laugher for those who actually do know the
Garand. G

I don't think that anything tells the other side that more than
a Luger. :-) (I guess that you could paint the toggle links day-glo
orange or something, but even without that, it is still pretty obvious,
even to the person you are pointing it at.

Is the Garrand empty status more visible to someone off to the
side? Does it perhaps drop the magazine automatically? (I've never had
one of those to play with -- just the 98 Mauser, and the SKS for long
guns.)

The Garand uses a clip, not a detachable magazine. You push the clip
with 8 rounds down into the top then close the bolt. When it's empty it
tosses the clip up in the air and makes a little noise. If you're in a
situation where you really think that that would be disastrous, you load
it without the clip (it doesn't _need_ the clip, it's just a fast way to
get 8 rounds into it).

This was addressed in the M-14 which uses a detachable box magazine.


Enjoy,
DoN.

He is talking about the rather distinctive "ting" the Garand makes
when it ejects the empty clip. This story has been going round and
round probably since the days that the Garand was accepted and makes
perfect sense - there you are in the middle of a fire fight - 50
people shooting guns, grenades exploding, machine guns blasting away
and you fire your last round and the rifle ejects the clip - Ting.

Immediately the enemy, hearing that noise, amid the sounds of battle,
and knowing that your rifle is empty leap to their feet and charge
your position as they now know that your weapon is empty.....

And, given that you can load 8 rounds into a Garand faster then you
can load 7 into a colt 1911 you can see that the enemy has a plenty of
time to come and get you.

Faster? Hardly.

Besides, the scream when it bites your thumb will be more evidence that
it's been empty than the ting from the clip ejecting

VBG

Gunner



I am the Sword of my Family
and the Shield of my Nation.
If sent, I will crush everything you have built,
burn everything you love,
and kill every one of you.
(Hebrew quote)
Cheers,

John D. Slocomb
(jdslocombatgmail)

On Wed, 13 Oct 2010 00:41:23 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

"DoN. Nichols" on 13 Oct 2010 01:32:04 GMT
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:


Another benefit to the Garand. When that clip pops out there's no
question that it's time to reload.

True, but the thinking seems to be, when the gun goes "click,
click, click", then reload, or if no reload, then go to the other gun.
Assuming you have an "other gun".

Colts and Garands don't go "click, click, click". They go click once
and then you can haul on the trigger with a hydraulic press and you
won't get another.

I don't know about the Garand, but the 1911A1 locks the slide
back when the magazine is empty, so you won't even get that first click
until you either release the slide lock or swap in a new magazine and
release the slide lock (which makes more sense, since the first one
won't lock up until it *is* empty. :-)

That slide locked open makes it just that much quicker to get
the first round chambered from the new magazine.

True - but I've been so focused on shooting, that I didn't really
notice the slide was locked back till I pulled the trigger - "hu-waah?
Oh! reload time."
And insufficient grease in a Browning 9mm, lets you practice
clearing jams, too.

Practice what I taught you.

It will come naturally in a very short time.

Gunner


I am the Sword of my Family
and the Shield of my Nation.
If sent, I will crush everything you have built,
burn everything you love,
and kill every one of you.
(Hebrew quote)

On Wed, 13 Oct 2010 15:48:28 +0700, J. D. Slocomb
wrote:

So how fast can each get 30 rounds downrange?

Isnt Aimed Fire the key to winning a battle? Or am I mistaken?


Probably not now and never has been.

The battle of Aquincourt, for example, where victory was attributed to
the English long bow, was primarily a matter of volley fire by massed
archers at long range.
During American Civil War (I believe the first example of rifled arms
used as primary weapons) at the Battle of First Bull Run it has been
estimated that between 8,000 and 10,000 rounds were fired for every
soldier killed or wounded.
In more modern times the Australians reporting on the Battle of
Longtan stated that the entire battle took place in an area
approximately the size of two football fields, an estimated 400,000
rounds of small arms ammunition (combined both sides) was expanded as
well as 3,500 rounds of artillery. The artillery fired nearly
continuously for 5 hours, equal to approximately 30 bullets per sq.
yd. and one shell per 4 sq. yd. over the entire battle field.
Total estimated casualties, killed and wounded, (Total both sides) was
1830. A minimum of 218 rounds of small arms ammunition expended per
casualty, assuming some causalities due to artillery fire.


Odd that our militaries have so much luck with small unit combat against
large numbers of enemy forces then, eh wot?

But then...they no longer stand in long lines and fire volleys at each
other.

Imagine that!

Gunner


I am the Sword of my Family
and the Shield of my Nation.
If sent, I will crush everything you have built,
burn everything you love,
and kill every one of you.
(Hebrew quote)

Gunner Asch on Wed, 13 Oct 2010 02:52:08 -0700
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
That slide locked open makes it just that much quicker to get
the first round chambered from the new magazine.

True - but I've been so focused on shooting, that I didn't really
notice the slide was locked back till I pulled the trigger - "hu-waah?
Oh! reload time."
And insufficient grease in a Browning 9mm, lets you practice
clearing jams, too.

Practice what I taught you.

Let me check my notes - ah "Patience" Yeah, yeah, how long will
that take?
What is the old saying "slow is sure; Sure is fast." I'm working
on sure.

It will come naturally in a very short time.

Don't I know it. There is a story of a Shaolin monk, who was told
to "take a pot of water and slap the water out of the pot". Every
dang day. After a year, he goes home to visit family, and while there
is asked a question, and responds "I am learning nothing" and slaps
the table. Which breaks. "Wax on, wax off" etc, and so on.


tschus
pyotr



--
pyotr filipivich
We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!

Gunner Asch on Tue, 12 Oct 2010 12:40:41 -0700
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

Plus it holds 3 rounds less than the LE

So how fast can each get 30 rounds downrange?

Isnt Aimed Fire the key to winning a battle? Or am I mistaken?

The British taught "How to Rapidly fire an Enfield rifle" to such
an extent, that in the open days of the First World War, the Germans
thought the Brits had more machine guns, due to the volume of fire
they were receiving.
If memory serves,the record is held by a British Sergeant Major,
who put 60 round into the target in sixty seconds. Which obviously
meant he worked a bolt sixty times, plus swapped out magazines five
times.

Again, it comes down to accuracy of the rifle, skill of the
shooter. And for a combat arm, robustness in the field. In The Great
War, the Germans had a good hunting rifle, the Americans a good target
rifle, and the Brits had a good battle rifle.
--
pyotr filipivich
We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!

J. D. Slocomb on Wed, 13 Oct 2010 15:48:28
+0700 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Tue, 12 Oct 2010 12:40:41 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:
On Tue, 12 Oct 2010 06:29:29 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:
says...
On 11 Oct 2010 23:30:03 GMT, "DoN. Nichols" wrote:
On 2010-10-11, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Mon, 11 Oct 2010 00:40:19 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:
[ ... ]

However I do wonder what qualifies the Garand as less of a "battle
rifle" and more of a "target rifle" than the Lee-Enfield.

Because the Lee Enfield can be buried in mud, used to pry out a Bren
carrier and then used as a tent pole, and when needed, it will fire

The Garand...unfortunately...wont fire when treated that way. Least not
more than once.

Not seeing the quoted post, so responding here.

Do us a favor. Get a Lee Enfield. Fill the bore up with mud and bend
the barrel. Now shoot it. Get back to us when you get out of the
hospital.

Get a Garand. Repeat the test. Have your widow notify the group.

This means what exactly? Or are you desperately seeking something to be
right about?

Plus it holds 3 rounds less than the LE

So how fast can each get 30 rounds downrange?

Isnt Aimed Fire the key to winning a battle? Or am I mistaken?

Probably not now and never has been.

Actually it has been. (Accurate Aimed Fire). That it often wasn't
used, and that it is often difficult to get soldiers to aim at another
human being, are a drawback. I recall reading of a test the Imperial
Austrian Army performed, where it had a battalion line up and fire at
a large canvas with human sized targets on it, to represent an enemy
unit. Sixty percent hits. But later, that same unit got over run
because it couldn't hit the enemy soldiers. Targets are not the same
as people.
With the development of firearms, and more importantly the
magazine, battle rifles became also a big noise maker. A way of
saying "I'm here, I'm bad, don't mess with me." while still keeping a
round available if something should show up.


The battle of Aquincourt, for example, where victory was attributed to
the English long bow, was primarily a matter of volley fire by massed
archers at long range.
During American Civil War (I believe the first example of rifled arms
used as primary weapons) at the Battle of First Bull Run it has been
estimated that between 8,000 and 10,000 rounds were fired for every
soldier killed or wounded.
In more modern times the Australians reporting on the Battle of
Longtan stated that the entire battle took place in an area
approximately the size of two football fields, an estimated 400,000
rounds of small arms ammunition (combined both sides) was expanded as
well as 3,500 rounds of artillery. The artillery fired nearly
continuously for 5 hours, equal to approximately 30 bullets per sq.
yd. and one shell per 4 sq. yd. over the entire battle field.
Total estimated casualties, killed and wounded, (Total both sides) was
1830. A minimum of 218 rounds of small arms ammunition expended per
casualty, assuming some causalities due to artillery fire.

If memory serves, the US Army in Vietnam expended around fifty
thousand rounds for every confirmed kill. Considering the number of
machine guns, mini guns, "mad minutes", and "covering fire" - I'm not
surprised. "Recon by fire" makes the shooter feel better, but doesn't
necessarily hurt the enemy. OTOH, it isn't the one with your name on
it - but the one addressed "Occupant" or "To Whom It May Concern" that
you need to worry about.

tschus
pyotr
--
pyotr filipivich
We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!

In article ,
says...

Gunner Asch on Tue, 12 Oct 2010 12:40:41 -0700
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

Plus it holds 3 rounds less than the LE

So how fast can each get 30 rounds downrange?

Isnt Aimed Fire the key to winning a battle? Or am I mistaken?

The British taught "How to Rapidly fire an Enfield rifle" to such
an extent, that in the open days of the First World War, the Germans
thought the Brits had more machine guns, due to the volume of fire
they were receiving.
If memory serves,the record is held by a British Sergeant Major,
who put 60 round into the target in sixty seconds. Which obviously
meant he worked a bolt sixty times, plus swapped out magazines five
times.

Again, it comes down to accuracy of the rifle, skill of the
shooter. And for a combat arm, robustness in the field. In The Great
War, the Germans had a good hunting rifle, the Americans a good target
rifle, and the Brits had a good battle rifle.

So how many more Germans could Sergeant York have killed/captures if he
had been using a "good battle rifle"?

On Wed, 13 Oct 2010 12:19:29 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

Gunner Asch on Tue, 12 Oct 2010 12:40:41 -0700
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

Plus it holds 3 rounds less than the LE

So how fast can each get 30 rounds downrange?

Isnt Aimed Fire the key to winning a battle? Or am I mistaken?

The British taught "How to Rapidly fire an Enfield rifle" to such
an extent, that in the open days of the First World War, the Germans
thought the Brits had more machine guns, due to the volume of fire
they were receiving.
If memory serves,the record is held by a British Sergeant Major,
who put 60 round into the target in sixty seconds. Which obviously
meant he worked a bolt sixty times, plus swapped out magazines five
times.

Again, it comes down to accuracy of the rifle, skill of the
shooter. And for a combat arm, robustness in the field. In The Great
War, the Germans had a good hunting rifle, the Americans a good target
rifle, and the Brits had a good battle rifle.


The following is from Wiki but was taken from a US Army report which
studied WW I, II casualties:

Following the end of World War II, the U.S. Army conducted a number of
studies of what happened in the war and how it was actually fought.
Several things were learned which applied directly to personal weapon
design. Perhaps most important, research found that most combat
casualties caused by small-arms fire took place at short range. So the
long range and accuracy of the standard rifle was, in a real sense,
wasted. Second, the research found that aiming was not a major factor
in causing casualties. Instead, the number one predictor of casualties
was the total number of bullets fired.[16] Third, psychological
studies found that many riflemen (as much as 2/3) never fired their
weapons at the enemy. By contrast, those soldiers equipped with
rapid-fire weapons (submachine guns and the early assault rifles) were
far more likely to actually use their weapons in battle.[17] This
combination of factors led to the conclusion that a fairly short-range
weapon capable of rapid fire would be the most effective general
purpose weapon for infantry.

Cheers,

John D. Slocomb
(jdslocombatgmail)

On Oct 13, 5:31*pm, "J. Clarke" wrote:

* *Again, it comes down to accuracy of the rifle, skill of the
shooter. *And for a combat arm, robustness in the field. *In The Great
War, the Germans had a good hunting rifle, the Americans a good target
rifle, and the Brits had a good battle rifle.

So how many more Germans could Sergeant York have killed/captures if he
had been using a "good battle rifle"?

He had been: issued a P17, not a M1903

**
mike
**

In article 9a7dfb7d-29e0-4a16-8b97-15aeb6019f66
@j18g2000yqd.googlegroups.com, says...

On Oct 13, 5:31*pm, "J. Clarke" wrote:

* *Again, it comes down to accuracy of the rifle, skill of the
shooter. *And for a combat arm, robustness in the field. *In The Great
War, the Germans had a good hunting rifle, the Americans a good target
rifle, and the Brits had a good battle rifle.

So how many more Germans could Sergeant York have killed/captures if he
had been using a "good battle rifle"?

He had been: issued a P17, not a M1903

Which he promptly swapped for an '03.