On Wed, 14 Jul 2010 21:23:01 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Wed, 14 Jul 2010 20:45:54 -0500, cavelamb
wrote:

Gunner Asch wrote:

Oddly enough..while Im not a tiny guy..I carry a .45 about my person
vertually every day and no one ever notices it.


If Gunner carries a .45 around all day but there is nobody there
to see it, does it still count?

Not the slightest bit.

Except for that warm fuzzy feeling it gives Gunner

G

Gunner

Eggzaktly and bingo. Caliber is irrelevant until shots are fired.
If carrying a .45 gits 'er done for you then that's the right choice
for you.

My right thumb knuckle knocking the grip of a .38 +P in my pocket
once per stride works for me for warm fuzzy summertime carry on the
trails. I might carry heavier in a jacket pocket during winter. I
won't carry anything I don't shoot well in rapid fire.

Most experts, including Ayoob, recommend selecting the heaviest
caliber that one can shoot well, and .380 is on their lists of viable
SD calibers. If you can shoot that little AMT .45 well after
ensuring that your particular piece isn't as flaky as that model has a
rep for being, than it's a good choice for you though it could be a
fatally bad choice for others.

Misses have zero stopping power. A well-placed .380 hit beats a miss
with a .45 every time. Your skill with a pocket .45 should not color
advice that you offer others who may never invest the time and ammo to
develop a comparable level of skill.

An important part of deciding what to carry is discovering what one
can shoot well, given that nobody shoots as well under stress as they
might with deliberate slow fire at paper targets.

Some gentle civilians, including me, might carry a pocket .380 when
they wouldn't carry a heavier gun. Any gun is far more than no gun.
..380ACP has about 200 ft-lb of energy when leaving the muzzle. That's
about half the energy of a .40 or .45, significantly more than can
be delivered with a rock, baseball bat, tennis racquet, California
framing hammer, pepper spray or indignent protest and is considerably
more responsive to urgent need than punching up 911 on a cellphone.

Your persistent ridicule of .380 as a poodle shooter dismays me
because it might mislead some to select a caliber that doesn't fit
them and would not serve them well if/when they actually had to fire.
Recall that even in your travels on the mean streets of LA and Taft,
you've never fired your weapon. Caliber only counts when a cap is
popped.

It's like advocating a size X boot for others because that's what
fits you. If you claim expertise in arms and self defense then I'd
like you to be more responsible with your guidance. You do younger
less savvy readers a disservice by contributing less responsibly.

On Wed, 14 Jul 2010 18:22:27 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Wed, 14 Jul 2010 12:27:07 -0500, Don Foreman
wrote:

On Tue, 13 Jul 2010 23:40:51 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:


I know of two people who are still alive today after being shot in the
skull with a .380.

Shrug

Did either of them beat anyone to death right after being shot in the
head?

Nope. One went down for about 10 minutes..the other simply shook it off
(graze) and ran away.

Neither of them were alone, and other parties in their group had to be
shot as well.

In one case..the shooter was killed, the other case..the bad guys were
mobbed by other friends of the shooter.

But..the point is..well..you know.

Perhaps I'm obtuse but the point isn't clear to me. If the point has
to do with gunfights among gangstas or even about frequenting the mean
streets where such gunfights occur, then it's completely irrelevant to
me and most gentle civilians.

On Wed, 14 Jul 2010 13:29:05 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


"Don Foreman" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 13 Jul 2010 23:40:51 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:


I know of two people who are still alive today after being shot in the
skull with a .380.

Shrug

Did either of them beat anyone to death right after being shot in the
head?

You're really rising to some stinky bait here, Don. You must be part
catfish. d8-)

I'm no stranger to stinkbait, Ed. I've enjoyed Viet Namese haute
cuisine and I know what spec ops guys ate to avoid olefactory tells
for the Cong. That was early on, before it became a war run by the
Citizens In Action and LBJ with commitment of clueless infantry
sacrificed as a matter of political expediency while Jane Fonda posed
her treasonous ass in Hanoi as a photo op.

Even at my advanced age and having been a smoker for 40 years, I can
smell a smoker at more than 100 meters.

Gawd, it smells soooo good! I won't revert but I do enjoy the
memories of how I enjoyed smokes associated with significant events.

On Wed, 14 Jul 2010 23:15:17 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

Gunner Asch on Wed, 14 Jul 2010 21:23:01 -0700
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Wed, 14 Jul 2010 20:45:54 -0500, cavelamb
wrote:

Gunner Asch wrote:

Oddly enough..while Im not a tiny guy..I carry a .45 about my person
vertually every day and no one ever notices it.


If Gunner carries a .45 around all day but there is nobody there
to see it, does it still count?

Not the slightest bit.

Except for that warm fuzzy feeling it gives Gunner

Some folks _are_ just calmer, going about armed.

Personality differences, involving self confidence, modern labor
saving devices, the usual.


pyotr

Indeed. Ive seen a group of people, male and female, having a very good
time, lots of laughter, kidding, good converstaion, no fights
whatsoever.

And everyone of them armed.

Shrug

One can hardly find a group of leftwingers having a good time, without
someone getting hurt.

Gunner

One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch

On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 02:08:20 -0500, Don Foreman
wrote:

On Wed, 14 Jul 2010 13:29:05 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


"Don Foreman" wrote in message
. ..
On Tue, 13 Jul 2010 23:40:51 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:


I know of two people who are still alive today after being shot in the
skull with a .380.

Shrug

Did either of them beat anyone to death right after being shot in the
head?

You're really rising to some stinky bait here, Don. You must be part
catfish. d8-)

I'm no stranger to stinkbait, Ed. I've enjoyed Viet Namese haute
cuisine and I know what spec ops guys ate to avoid olefactory tells
for the Cong. That was early on, before it became a war run by the
Citizens In Action and LBJ with commitment of clueless infantry
sacrificed as a matter of political expediency while Jane Fonda posed
her treasonous ass in Hanoi as a photo op.

Even at my advanced age and having been a smoker for 40 years, I can
smell a smoker at more than 100 meters.

Gawd, it smells soooo good! I won't revert but I do enjoy the
memories of how I enjoyed smokes associated with significant events.

Hell..one could even get to like nuoc mam on their bu'n.

G

Gunner

One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch

On 7/14/2010 8:23 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Wed, 14 Jul 2010 13:22:40 -0500, "David
wrote:

On 7/14/2010 1:37 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:

The 40 obviously was a good enough tool for the job.

So why do people carry the poodle caliber?

Gunner

We all know you're a slow learner.

People

carry

a

.380

pistol

because

they

can't

conceal

a

larger

pistol.

Not

all

of

us

are

fat

slobs

who

can

conceal

a

.45

Backup.

Was that slow enough for you?

David

So
you
are
only
3
feet
tall
?

G
u
n
n
e
r

No need for that, I don't share your learning/reading disability.

Nope, about 5'10" and able to conceal a P3AT when wearing shorts and a
t-shirt.

David

On 7/14/2010 8:45 PM, cavelamb wrote:
Gunner Asch wrote:

Oddly enough..while Im not a tiny guy..I carry a .45 about my person
vertually every day and no one ever notices it.


If Gunner carries a .45 around all day but there is nobody there
to see it, does it still count?

Only if you believe him.

David

In article ,
cavelamb wrote:

Gunner Asch wrote:

Oddly enough..while Im not a tiny guy..I carry a .45 about my person
vertually every day and no one ever notices it.


If Gunner carries a .45 around all day but there is nobody there
to see it, does it still count?

If Gunner shoots someone in a forest and there's nobody else there, does
the Bart Simpson Defense apply? (Or is it just another S3 situation?

On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 03:20:45 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:



Most experts, including Ayoob, recommend selecting the heaviest
caliber that one can shoot well, and .380 is on their lists of viable
SD calibers.

Way way way at the bottom of his list btw...G

At the bottom, but on the list.

Blink blink...the fact of the matter Don..is the .380 is at the very
very bottom edge of suitble cartridges for self defense. Period. End
Program. Full Stop.

It wouldn't be on the lists at all if it was regarded as unsuitable by
very, very experts.

Which is why I as a very very experienced shooter and
unfortunately..someone who has had to discharge a firearm in defense of
his life...discourage people from carrying one.

Which may discourage them from carrying anything at all. Well done,
Gunner!

On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 06:19:56 -0500, "David R.Birch"
wrote:

On 7/14/2010 8:23 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Wed, 14 Jul 2010 13:22:40 -0500, "David
wrote:

On 7/14/2010 1:37 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:

The 40 obviously was a good enough tool for the job.

So why do people carry the poodle caliber?

Gunner

We all know you're a slow learner.

People

carry

a

.380

pistol

because

they

can't

conceal

a

larger

pistol.

Not

all

of

us

are

fat

slobs

who

can

conceal

a

.45

Backup.

Was that slow enough for you?

David

So
you
are
only
3
feet
tall
?

G
u
n
n
e
r

No need for that, I don't share your learning/reading disability.

Nope, about 5'10" and able to conceal a P3AT when wearing shorts and a
t-shirt.

David


What..you didnt like it being returned to you?

So you evidently are wearing some form of G-string for shorts and a
middie when discussing shorts and a t-shirt?

Because I can tuck away a full sized 1911 when wearing shorts and a
tshirt.

Son..carry what you wish. If you want to carry a weapon at the absolute
bottom end of cartridges suitble for self defense..go for it. You dont
need my permission.

You do pray, right?

If not..Id suggest taking it up.


Gunner

One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch

On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 07:43:59 -0400, John Husvar
wrote:

In article ,
cavelamb wrote:

Gunner Asch wrote:

Oddly enough..while Im not a tiny guy..I carry a .45 about my person
vertually every day and no one ever notices it.


If Gunner carries a .45 around all day but there is nobody there
to see it, does it still count?

If Gunner shoots someone in a forest and there's nobody else there, does
the Bart Simpson Defense apply? (Or is it just another S3 situation?


ROFLMAO!

Well done Sir...well done indeed!

Gunner

One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch

On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 13:17:06 -0500, Don Foreman
wrote:

On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 03:20:45 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:



Most experts, including Ayoob, recommend selecting the heaviest
caliber that one can shoot well, and .380 is on their lists of viable
SD calibers.

Way way way at the bottom of his list btw...G

At the bottom, but on the list.

Death by drinking floor polish is on the list as well..way down..but on
the list.

You do understand why its on the BOTTOM of the list...right?

Blink blink...the fact of the matter Don..is the .380 is at the very
very bottom edge of suitble cartridges for self defense. Period. End
Program. Full Stop.

It wouldn't be on the lists at all if it was regarded as unsuitable by
very, very experts.

Yes Don..it would be. And there is a vast difference between "usable"
and perfered.

Else you would be carrying nothing but a 1/4" ratchet in your tool box.
After all..it will undo nuts and bolts...right?

Which is why I as a very very experienced shooter and
unfortunately..someone who has had to discharge a firearm in defense of
his life...discourage people from carrying one.

Which may discourage them from carrying anything at all. Well done,
Gunner!


So you are claiming that when someone says the Yugo is simply too damned
small for anything...anyone who reads that is simply going to become a
pedestrian?

Another raised eyebrow.......


Gunner


One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch

On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 12:42:22 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 13:17:06 -0500, Don Foreman
wrote:

On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 03:20:45 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:



Most experts, including Ayoob, recommend selecting the heaviest
caliber that one can shoot well, and .380 is on their lists of viable
SD calibers.

Way way way at the bottom of his list btw...G

At the bottom, but on the list.

Death by drinking floor polish is on the list as well..way down..but on
the list.

No, floor polish as a beverage isn't on Ayoob's list of suitable
calibers.

You do understand why its on the BOTTOM of the list...right?

Sure. Something has to be at the bottom. The unsuitable calibers
aren't on the list at all.

Blink blink...the fact of the matter Don..is the .380 is at the very
very bottom edge of suitble cartridges for self defense. Period. End
Program. Full Stop.

Ayoob certainly doesn't place that degree of emphasis on the
differences between calibers.


It wouldn't be on the lists at all if it was regarded as unsuitable by
very, very experts.

Yes Don..it would be.

No, Gunner, it wouldn't be.

And there is a vast difference between "usable"
and perfered.

In some cases, .380ACP is preferred. One case is that it is highly
preferred over not being armed at all. Another case is if an
individual gets significantly better shot placement with that caliber
than with a larger caliber.

Else you would be carrying nothing but a 1/4" ratchet in your tool box.
After all..it will undo nuts and bolts...right?

I have three sizes of ratchets in my toolbox, more than 3 calibers in
my safe -- and I don't routinely carry any ratchet at all.

Which is why I as a very very experienced shooter and
unfortunately..someone who has had to discharge a firearm in defense of
his life...discourage people from carrying one.


So you are claiming that when someone says the Yugo is simply too damned
small for anything...anyone who reads that is simply going to become a
pedestrian?

If he has to carry it, probably so!

On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 16:07:20 -0500, Don Foreman
wrote:

On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 12:42:22 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 13:17:06 -0500, Don Foreman
wrote:

On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 03:20:45 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:



Most experts, including Ayoob, recommend selecting the heaviest
caliber that one can shoot well, and .380 is on their lists of viable
SD calibers.

Way way way at the bottom of his list btw...G

At the bottom, but on the list.

Death by drinking floor polish is on the list as well..way down..but on
the list.

No, floor polish as a beverage isn't on Ayoob's list of suitable
calibers.


Avoiding the object?

You do understand why its on the BOTTOM of the list...right?

Sure. Something has to be at the bottom. The unsuitable calibers
aren't on the list at all.

Blink blink...the fact of the matter Don..is the .380 is at the very
very bottom edge of suitble cartridges for self defense. Period. End
Program. Full Stop.

Ayoob certainly doesn't place that degree of emphasis on the
differences between calibers.

Oddly..it appears you havent read all of his works.
Or the works of "many many of the experts"


It wouldn't be on the lists at all if it was regarded as unsuitable by
very, very experts.

Yes Don..it would be.

No, Gunner, it wouldn't be.

Yes Don..it would be. Because it is "usable"

Say..I see they are making Gold Dots for the .25. Thats where you
really should be going. Smaller. That expanding 36 grain bullet wont
put any strain on you when shooting, and you can carry at least 6 of
them in a tiny bity little teenywienie pistol you can carry in your
shirt pocket and never even leave a bulge.

And there is a vast difference between "usable"
and perfered.

In some cases, .380ACP is preferred. One case is that it is highly
preferred over not being armed at all. Another case is if an
individual gets significantly better shot placement with that caliber
than with a larger caliber.

Which cases might those be?

So you are claiming that better cartridges are nearly impossible for the
shooter to learn to hit with, so its better to stay with something that
may or may not prevent the bad guys from sucking up your rounds, and
then cutting your throat?

Interesting world view you maintain.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

Read the very last paragraph.

Else you would be carrying nothing but a 1/4" ratchet in your tool box.
After all..it will undo nuts and bolts...right?

I have three sizes of ratchets in my toolbox, more than 3 calibers in
my safe -- and I don't routinely carry any ratchet at all.

So you dont have tools in your vehicles? Blink blink....

And if the safe was a good place to keep your street weapon...what sort
of dolly would you suggest one to use?



Which is why I as a very very experienced shooter and
unfortunately..someone who has had to discharge a firearm in defense of
his life...discourage people from carrying one.


So you are claiming that when someone says the Yugo is simply too damned
small for anything...anyone who reads that is simply going to become a
pedestrian?

If he has to carry it, probably so!

Fascinating. Many millions of people carry daily concealed weapons on
their persons that weigh at least a pound or more...and since they are
under great handicap as a group..if they found out that they were
weighted down..would stop carrying suitable weapons.

(attempt to change the intent of my comment noted)


Im rather fascinated by your continued attempts to divert from my graven
in stone comments and whatnot.

Shrug

You snipped out the vast majority of what I wrote...so obviously the
content bothered you.

And Im not interested enough to try to understand why it bothered you so
much.

Carry what you want Don.

I just hope you can live with your choices. Say..I was reading an
article the other day that indicated that perhaps FMJ might be best in a
tiny bellygun like the Ruger. Seems with only a 6" penetration at most
from most JHPs..it might not make it through important internal organs.

What brand will you be loading?

Some links to cleaning up the LCP
http://www.gunreports.com/special_re...ctor423-1.html

And a link to a firearm you really really need to think about carrying.
Its much lighter than even your LCP.

Its only 4 oz!!

http://www.naaminis.com/short.html

Gunner





Gunner

One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch

On Wed, 14 Jul 2010 21:23:01 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote the following:

On Wed, 14 Jul 2010 20:45:54 -0500, cavelamb
wrote:

Gunner Asch wrote:

Oddly enough..while Im not a tiny guy..I carry a .45 about my person
vertually every day and no one ever notices it.


If Gunner carries a .45 around all day but there is nobody there
to see it, does it still count?

Not the slightest bit.

Except for that warm fuzzy feeling it gives Gunner G

And the cold, dry-mouthed, shocking feeling it occasionally gives to
bad guys who cause you to display it to them, right?

--

EXPLETIVE: A balm, usually applied verbally in hindsight,
which somehow eases those pains and indignities following
our every deficiency in foresight.

On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 16:01:29 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Wed, 14 Jul 2010 21:23:01 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote the following:

On Wed, 14 Jul 2010 20:45:54 -0500, cavelamb
wrote:

Gunner Asch wrote:

Oddly enough..while Im not a tiny guy..I carry a .45 about my person
vertually every day and no one ever notices it.


If Gunner carries a .45 around all day but there is nobody there
to see it, does it still count?

Not the slightest bit.

Except for that warm fuzzy feeling it gives Gunner G

And the cold, dry-mouthed, shocking feeling it occasionally gives to
bad guys who cause you to display it to them, right?


Shrug...I try not to worry about future events too much. With
luck..there wont be any more such events.

In the past however..I believe I got my point across well enough.
At least one of the fellows ****ed himself.......

Shrug again

Gunner

One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch

On Wed, 14 Jul 2010 19:04:54 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote the following:

On Wed, 14 Jul 2010 16:16:00 -0400, Ned Simmons wrote:

On Wed, 14 Jul 2010 12:20:57 -0500, Don Foreman
wrote:

On Tue, 13 Jul 2010 23:40:51 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:


And having your heart cut out with a chain saw is generally fatal as
well.

Now figure the chances of neing able to put a .380 in the brain when
needed in a gun fight, or being required to cut out someones heart with
a chain saw.

Carrying a chainsaw would be even more inconvenient than carrying a
.45. Does anyone even make a holster for a Husqvarna?

Everyone here in the North Woods carries. Here's mine.
http://www.suscom-maine.net/~nsimmon...SawCarrier.jpg

Very nicely done!

Yeah, the two-tone string just makes it sing, doesn't it?

Me? I'd prefer a katana.
Gunner

One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch

--

EXPLETIVE: A balm, usually applied verbally in hindsight,
which somehow eases those pains and indignities following
our every deficiency in foresight.

On Wed, 14 Jul 2010 12:25:21 -0500, Don Foreman
wrote the following:

On Tue, 13 Jul 2010 23:37:10 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:


Mr. Fish apparently shared your attitude. He shot and killed Mr
Kuenzli with a 10mm (.40 cal). He went to prison and incurred half a
mil of legal expenses, but nobody can say he didn't have enough gun
the day he killed Mr. K.

The 40 obviously was a good enough tool for the job.

So why do people carry the poodle caliber?

Why don't you carry a .500 magnum or a .454 Casul?

If shotguns are the top-of-the-line self defense weapon, why not a
Taurus Judge? Gunner has the wrists for a .410 shotgun pistola.

--

EXPLETIVE: A balm, usually applied verbally in hindsight,
which somehow eases those pains and indignities following
our every deficiency in foresight.

Larry Jaques wrote:
On Wed, 14 Jul 2010 19:04:54 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote the following:

Very nicely done!

Yeah, the two-tone string just makes it sing, doesn't it?

Me? I'd prefer a katana.




I saw a guy playing with one.
Nearly sliced his own arm off and bled out...

Kids!

On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 16:14:50 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Wed, 14 Jul 2010 12:25:21 -0500, Don Foreman
wrote the following:

On Tue, 13 Jul 2010 23:37:10 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:


Mr. Fish apparently shared your attitude. He shot and killed Mr
Kuenzli with a 10mm (.40 cal). He went to prison and incurred half a
mil of legal expenses, but nobody can say he didn't have enough gun
the day he killed Mr. K.

The 40 obviously was a good enough tool for the job.

So why do people carry the poodle caliber?

Why don't you carry a .500 magnum or a .454 Casul?

If shotguns are the top-of-the-line self defense weapon, why not a
Taurus Judge? Gunner has the wrists for a .410 shotgun pistola.


The jury is still out on the Judge. Based on patterning on paper..that
gun is a good example of A Sucker is born every minute.

Ive never fired one, though did handle one in a gun shop not long ago.

Simply didnt ring my chimes..and it handled like a brick.

If any of my friends gets stupid enough to buy one..Ill write up a
review on it after Ive put a few dozen rounds out the tube.

As for it being a "shotgun"....well...while it shoots the worlds most
pathetic shotgun cartridge.....it really isnt one.
Not even with one eye closed.

Gunner


One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch

"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
...

So why do people carry the poodle caliber?

Hmmm...
I suspect James "PPK" Bond might offer a contrary opinion..

....and if anyone suggests that I'm using fiction to support a factual claim,
well, I think *that* accusation could be more accurately directed to
"someone else" (think "Walter Mitty") in this thread (and this group, for
that matter.)

Besides, I'd trust James Bond to be accurate and fact-based way ahead of
"Great-Cull" Gunner.

Also - at the risk of invoking Godwin's, it seems that "poodle calibre" was
enough to finish off Adolph himself...
(Well - OK - it was pretty close range, but it seems to have done the job.)

--
Jeff R.

No smartarse sig today.
No need.

Jeff R. wrote:
"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
...

So why do people carry the poodle caliber?

Hmmm...
I suspect James "PPK" Bond might offer a contrary opinion..

...and if anyone suggests that I'm using fiction to support a factual claim,
well, I think *that* accusation could be more accurately directed to
"someone else" (think "Walter Mitty") in this thread (and this group, for
that matter.)

Besides, I'd trust James Bond to be accurate and fact-based way ahead of
"Great-Cull" Gunner.

Also - at the risk of invoking Godwin's, it seems that "poodle calibre" was
enough to finish off Adolph himself...
(Well - OK - it was pretty close range, but it seems to have done the job.)


In the US, and for sure Texas, most armed conflict is within 9 feet.

At that range, a .22 could be lethal.



--

Richard Lamb

On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 19:39:48 -0500, cavelamb
wrote:

Jeff R. wrote:
"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
...

So why do people carry the poodle caliber?

Hmmm...
I suspect James "PPK" Bond might offer a contrary opinion..

...and if anyone suggests that I'm using fiction to support a factual claim,
well, I think *that* accusation could be more accurately directed to
"someone else" (think "Walter Mitty") in this thread (and this group, for
that matter.)

Besides, I'd trust James Bond to be accurate and fact-based way ahead of
"Great-Cull" Gunner.

Also - at the risk of invoking Godwin's, it seems that "poodle calibre" was
enough to finish off Adolph himself...
(Well - OK - it was pretty close range, but it seems to have done the job.)


In the US, and for sure Texas, most armed conflict is within 9 feet.

At that range, a .22 could be lethal.

Indeed. It COULD be lethal.

And if you shoot the perp in the eyesocket..it probaly would be Quickly
Lethal.

Now if you tie him to a post and secure his head...you have a pretty
good chance of shooting him in the eye socket.

On the other hand..out on the street....

and most shootings occur inside of 7 yrds.

If you are inside of 9 feet..Ill have that gun out of your hands and
stuffed up your sinus cavity before you can say oh ****!

Something Im curious about....

Im not sure why a number of posters here think that a street gunfight is
like walking up to the 7 yrd line, they blow a whistle, everyone grabs
their handguns and on the second whistel, they shoot at stationary full
profile targets.

They nearly always involve sudden suprise, a sudden rush of massive
amounts of adrenaline, which either confuses the **** out of you as you
are mentally sorting out the fact that you could die in the next little
bit and what to do about it..or it freezes you like a stone as the brain
simply goes into lockup, or you drop out of your brain and muscle memory
and training that you have done..takes control away from your frontal
lobes as you go into automatic pilot.

The rest of the time..you see it coming..you have no place to run or
take cover..and the brain acts like above...

Some people get a fearful reaction..which screws with your physical
reflexes. Some people get ****ed off which screws with your physical
reactions...and the well trained ones go emotionless and start acting as
a well programmed computer system.

All in the course of a very very few seconds.

I personally used to be type 3. Screaming gibbering Emotion would get
pushed into a small room in the back of my skull..and the door slammed
shut and locked as the Battle Stations signal played over and over
again, while my reactions and "shooters mind" started pushing all the
proper buttons in preperation to put my rounds where the internal
computer told the body to put them. Or to swing the blade, strike or
whatever it determened to be necessary and NOW!!!

Will it happen that way again? No idea. Stroke, heart attack..advancing
age..all have an unknown effect. And frankly..Im not looking forwards to
finding out.

When I was younger...it was an automatic reaction. People would later
comment that it had been noticable when Id gone into combat mode.
Usually while I was puking my guts out in released reaction after the
fact.

Shrug. But as I said..Im much older now..a bit more run through the
wringer. Who knows?

I really need to get out and burn off some of the mental cobwebs..and
work on maintaining the mental programming. Refresh the muscle memory
and update the software of my backbrain..the portion of my brain where
the demon lives. Need to sweep out the turds, the well gnawed bones and
change the bedding.

Shrug

Gunner


One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch

On 7/15/2010 2:24 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:

No need for that, I don't share your learning/reading disability.

Nope, about 5'10" and able to conceal a P3AT when wearing shorts and a
t-shirt.

David


What..you didnt like it being returned to you?

Once again, you demonstrate your shortcomings.

"I don't share your learning/reading disability."


So you evidently are wearing some form of G-string for shorts and a
middie when discussing shorts and a t-shirt?

Nope, just standard shorts and T.

Because I can tuck away a full sized 1911 when wearing shorts and a
tshirt.

While I carry a few extra pounds, not as many as you must to conceal a
1911. I don't mean cover, I mean conceal.

Son..carry what you wish. If you want to carry a weapon at the absolute
bottom end of cartridges suitble for self defense..go for it. You dont
need my permission.

Never asked for your permission. I'll carry what's appropriate to the
circumstances.

You do pray, right?

Nope, no need for invisible friends.

Well, there IS the FSM!

David

On 7/15/2010 7:36 PM, Jeff R. wrote:
"Gunner wrote in message
...

So why do people carry the poodle caliber?

Hmmm...
I suspect James "PPK" Bond might offer a contrary opinion..

The Bond PPK was a .32ACP, slightly more accurate than the .380, but a
lot less powerful.

...and if anyone suggests that I'm using fiction to support a factual claim,
well, I think *that* accusation could be more accurately directed to
"someone else" (think "Walter Mitty") in this thread (and this group, for
that matter.)

Besides, I'd trust James Bond to be accurate and fact-based way ahead of
"Great-Cull" Gunner.

Ian Fleming was notorious for researching his technical data, then
screwing it up when it came to writing the novels. More believable
than Great-Null Gunner, though.

Also - at the risk of invoking Godwin's, it seems that "poodle calibre" was
enough to finish off Adolph himself...
(Well - OK - it was pretty close range, but it seems to have done the job.)

It was a wise guy shot, direct to the head, and he'd already taken poison.

David

On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 22:30:33 -0500, "David R.Birch"
wrote:

On 7/15/2010 2:24 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:

No need for that, I don't share your learning/reading disability.

Nope, about 5'10" and able to conceal a P3AT when wearing shorts and a
t-shirt.

David


What..you didnt like it being returned to you?

Once again, you demonstrate your shortcomings.

"I don't share your learning/reading disability."


So you evidently are wearing some form of G-string for shorts and a
middie when discussing shorts and a t-shirt?

Nope, just standard shorts and T.

Because I can tuck away a full sized 1911 when wearing shorts and a
tshirt.

While I carry a few extra pounds, not as many as you must to conceal a
1911. I don't mean cover, I mean conceal.

Im 6' 3", and at 202 pounds..with a 46" chest and 36" waist and a 18"
neck...Ive never been called fat.

And if you cant tuck anything besides that bitty .380 away...you frankly
dont know how to do it.

Shrug


Son..carry what you wish. If you want to carry a weapon at the absolute
bottom end of cartridges suitble for self defense..go for it. You dont
need my permission.

Never asked for your permission. I'll carry what's appropriate to the
circumstances.

Of course you will. Indeedy. Hell yes.
Until someone else changes the circumstances on you..without letting you
know ahead of time.

Shrug again.


You do pray, right?

Nope, no need for invisible friends.

Invisible friends?

Well, there IS the FSM!

David

FSM???

Gunner


One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch

On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 16:11:35 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

Wow, that looks a whole lot like my little poodle snuffer, 'cept for
the shape of the trigger guard.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...l-Tec-P-11.jpg


"According to Wikipedia, Swedish engineer George Kellgren designed the
Grendel 10 and now owns Kel Tec, and is the designer of the Kel Tec
PTA3.380. That seems to explain why the guns are similar in design and
appearance"

From a Grendal users site....

Gunner

One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch

On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 22:43:51 -0500, "David R.Birch"
wrote:

Ian Fleming was notorious for researching his technical data, then
screwing it up when it came to writing the novels. More believable
than Great-Null Gunner, though.

G

Your opinion is noted with amusement.

Gunner

One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch

On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 14:49:55 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:


No, floor polish as a beverage isn't on Ayoob's list of suitable
calibers.

Avoiding the object?

Huh?

Ayoob certainly doesn't place that degree of emphasis on the
differences between calibers.

Oddly..it appears you havent read all of his works.
Or the works of "many many of the experts"

Hell, Gunner, I even missed your book! All the lists I've seen are
consistent.


It wouldn't be on the lists at all if it was regarded as unsuitable by
very, very experts.

Yes Don..it would be.

No, Gunner, it wouldn't be.

Yes Don..it would be. Because it is "usable"

Usable but unsuitable? Ayoob et al haven't published any lists of
"usable but unsuitable".

Say..I see they are making Gold Dots for the .25. Thats where you
really should be going. Smaller. That expanding 36 grain bullet wont
put any strain on you when shooting, and you can carry at least 6 of
them in a tiny bity little teenywienie pistol you can carry in your
shirt pocket and never even leave a bulge.

..25 doesn't make any credible authority's list. Odd that you'd
recommmend it.



And there is a vast difference between "usable"
and perfered.

In some cases, .380ACP is preferred. One case is that it is highly
preferred over not being armed at all. Another case is if an
individual gets significantly better shot placement with that caliber
than with a larger caliber.

Which cases might those be?

Uh, did you even read the preceeding paragraph?

So you are claiming that better cartridges are nearly impossible for the
shooter to learn to hit with, so its better to stay with something that
may or may not prevent the bad guys from sucking up your rounds, and
then cutting your throat?

I didn't claim anything remotely like that. I recited that the best
caliber is the largest with which the shooter can achieve good shot
placement under stress. The point that you are unable to accept is
that this can vary significantly from shooter to shooter and from
situation to situation.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

Read the very last paragraph.

Read the last sentence of that paragraph. I don't dispute that a
larger bullet has greater efficacy with a well-placed shot. I doubt
that you would dispute that a 12-gage shotgun or most centerfire
rifles have far more efficacy than about any handgun. Good choices
for military and law enforcement but a bit over the top for a senior
gent having a daytime walk.


Else you would be carrying nothing but a 1/4" ratchet in your tool box.
After all..it will undo nuts and bolts...right?

I have three sizes of ratchets in my toolbox, more than 3 calibers in
my safe -- and I don't routinely carry any ratchet at all.

So you dont have tools in your vehicles?

Just in the truck ... no, that toolbox is at the cabin. Nope, no
tools in my vehicles other than a digital caliper and a cellphone.

And if the safe was a good place to keep your street weapon...what sort
of dolly would you suggest one to use?

That has been my point, Gunner. Those left in the safe have zero
efficacy when I'm out and about.

Which is why I as a very very experienced shooter and
unfortunately..someone who has had to discharge a firearm in defense of
his life...discourage people from carrying one.


So you are claiming that when someone says the Yugo is simply too damned
small for anything...anyone who reads that is simply going to become a
pedestrian?

If he has to carry it, probably so!

Fascinating. Many millions of people carry daily concealed weapons on
their persons that weigh at least a pound or more...and since they are
under great handicap as a group..if they found out that they were
weighted down..would stop carrying suitable weapons.

Excluding law enforcement, about 2% of American civilians have carry
permits and not all of them carry routinely. I guess that's millions,
but not many millions. More than a few of these civilians carry
..380's.

(attempt to change the intent of my comment noted)


Im rather fascinated by your continued attempts to divert from my graven
in stone comments and whatnot.

Graven in stone? Wow!

Shrug

You snipped out the vast majority of what I wrote...so obviously the
content bothered you.

And Im not interested enough to try to understand why it bothered you so
much.

I snipped for brevity. I've been tweaking you a bit because you are
so closed-minded on this subject and so apparently determined to guide
others to follow your example. I am not as experienced or expert with
firearms as you portray yourself to be, but I'm definitely informed
and experienced enough to decide what works for me.

I am not attacking you nor trying to discredit you, though I am
asserting a differing viewpoint. Unbunch yer undies, find your grin.
Life is far too short to be taken seriously.

Carry what you want Don.

And you as well. We each and both will, won't we!

I just hope you can live with your choices. Say..I was reading an
article the other day that indicated that perhaps FMJ might be best in a
tiny bellygun like the Ruger. Seems with only a 6" penetration at most
from most JHPs..it might not make it through important internal organs.

I saw that article. Other data with more modern ammo says more like
10".

What brand will you be loading?

Hornady critical defense, modern ammo designed specifically for
maximum efficacy with the very popular .380ACP.

Some links to cleaning up the LCP
http://www.gunreports.com/special_re...ctor423-1.html

Interesting, thanks. Apparently an issue with pre-recall LCP's. (The
recall was for some other problem) I recover my brass to reload for
target practice and have seen no rim tears at all.

And a link to a firearm you really really need to think about carrying.
Its much lighter than even your LCP.

Its only 4 oz!!

http://www.naaminis.com/short.html

That is definitely a cutie!

Foreman

EXPLETIVE: A bomb, usually applied verbally in hindsight,
which somehow expresses the frustration of being legally constrained
from instant obliteration of willful idiots and conniving assholes.

On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 18:18:50 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 19:39:48 -0500, cavelamb
wrote:

Jeff R. wrote:
"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
...

So why do people carry the poodle caliber?

Hmmm...
I suspect James "PPK" Bond might offer a contrary opinion..

...and if anyone suggests that I'm using fiction to support a factual claim,
well, I think *that* accusation could be more accurately directed to
"someone else" (think "Walter Mitty") in this thread (and this group, for
that matter.)

Besides, I'd trust James Bond to be accurate and fact-based way ahead of
"Great-Cull" Gunner.

Also - at the risk of invoking Godwin's, it seems that "poodle calibre" was
enough to finish off Adolph himself...
(Well - OK - it was pretty close range, but it seems to have done the job.)


In the US, and for sure Texas, most armed conflict is within 9 feet.

At that range, a .22 could be lethal.

Indeed. It COULD be lethal.

And if you shoot the perp in the eyesocket..it probaly would be Quickly
Lethal.

Now if you tie him to a post and secure his head...you have a pretty
good chance of shooting him in the eye socket.

On the other hand..out on the street....

and most shootings occur inside of 7 yrds.

If you are inside of 9 feet..Ill have that gun out of your hands and
stuffed up your sinus cavity before you can say oh ****!

Something Im curious about....

Im not sure why a number of posters here think that a street gunfight is
like walking up to the 7 yrd line, they blow a whistle, everyone grabs
their handguns and on the second whistel, they shoot at stationary full
profile targets.

They nearly always involve sudden suprise, a sudden rush of massive
amounts of adrenaline, which either confuses the **** out of you as you
are mentally sorting out the fact that you could die in the next little
bit and what to do about it..or it freezes you like a stone as the brain
simply goes into lockup, or you drop out of your brain and muscle memory
and training that you have done..takes control away from your frontal
lobes as you go into automatic pilot.

The rest of the time..you see it coming..you have no place to run or
take cover..and the brain acts like above...

Some people get a fearful reaction..which screws with your physical
reflexes. Some people get ****ed off which screws with your physical
reactions...and the well trained ones go emotionless and start acting as
a well programmed computer system.

All in the course of a very very few seconds.

I personally used to be type 3. Screaming gibbering Emotion would get
pushed into a small room in the back of my skull..and the door slammed
shut and locked as the Battle Stations signal played over and over
again, while my reactions and "shooters mind" started pushing all the
proper buttons in preperation to put my rounds where the internal
computer told the body to put them. Or to swing the blade, strike or
whatever it determened to be necessary and NOW!!!

Will it happen that way again? No idea. Stroke, heart attack..advancing
age..all have an unknown effect. And frankly..Im not looking forwards to
finding out.

When I was younger...it was an automatic reaction. People would later
comment that it had been noticable when Id gone into combat mode.
Usually while I was puking my guts out in released reaction after the
fact.

Shrug. But as I said..Im much older now..a bit more run through the
wringer. Who knows?

I really need to get out and burn off some of the mental cobwebs..and
work on maintaining the mental programming. Refresh the muscle memory
and update the software of my backbrain..the portion of my brain where
the demon lives. Need to sweep out the turds, the well gnawed bones and
change the bedding.

And perhaps discover how to be a civilian senior with some semblance
of tranquility and a modicum of joy and non-derisive laughter in your
life.

Gunner Asch wrote:

In the US, and for sure Texas, most armed conflict is within 9 feet.

At that range, a .22 could be lethal.

Indeed. It COULD be lethal.

And if you shoot the perp in the eyesocket..it probaly would be Quickly
Lethal.

Now if you tie him to a post and secure his head...you have a pretty
good chance of shooting him in the eye socket.

On the other hand..out on the street....

and most shootings occur inside of 7 yrds.

If you are inside of 9 feet..Ill have that gun out of your hands and
stuffed up your sinus cavity before you can say oh ****!


Dream on, Gunner.



Something Im curious about....

Im not sure why a number of posters here think that a street gunfight is
like walking up to the 7 yrd line, they blow a whistle, everyone grabs
their handguns and on the second whistel, they shoot at stationary full
profile targets.



I've been there - it ain't.


But that's the difference....

On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 14:49:55 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:



http://www.naaminis.com/short.html

Gunner

Good poop, thanks for that! Mary's birthday is imminent. I'll bet
she'd purely love that little .22 revolver, and I think I saw one like
that in the display case at a local gun shop we visited not long ago.

On Fri, 16 Jul 2010 00:08:59 -0500, Don Foreman
wrote:

On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 14:49:55 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:


No, floor polish as a beverage isn't on Ayoob's list of suitable
calibers.

Avoiding the object?

Huh?

Thats what I thought..and later in the post you claim my mindset is
stifff.......


Ayoob certainly doesn't place that degree of emphasis on the
differences between calibers.

Oddly..it appears you havent read all of his works.
Or the works of "many many of the experts"

Hell, Gunner, I even missed your book! All the lists I've seen are
consistent.

Im actually noted in at least 4 as "contributor" or assised by.

Most of course have spelled my last name wrong. Which doesnt bother me
in the slightest.



It wouldn't be on the lists at all if it was regarded as unsuitable by
very, very experts.

Yes Don..it would be.

No, Gunner, it wouldn't be.

Yes Don..it would be. Because it is "usable"

Usable but unsuitable? Ayoob et al haven't published any lists of
"usable but unsuitable".

Most writers have. The .380 is at the bottom of each of those lists.

Say..I see they are making Gold Dots for the .25. Thats where you
really should be going. Smaller. That expanding 36 grain bullet wont
put any strain on you when shooting, and you can carry at least 6 of
them in a tiny bity little teenywienie pistol you can carry in your
shirt pocket and never even leave a bulge.

.25 doesn't make any credible authority's list. Odd that you'd
recommmend it.

But Don...its Light! And its Easy To Carry! And You will never have to
use it!!!!!

But its Still a Gun!!!



And there is a vast difference between "usable"
and perfered.

In some cases, .380ACP is preferred. One case is that it is highly
preferred over not being armed at all. Another case is if an
individual gets significantly better shot placement with that caliber
than with a larger caliber.

Which cases might those be?

Uh, did you even read the preceeding paragraph?

Yes..I did. See below. I couldnt believe you wrote the above. (shaking
head)

So you are claiming that better cartridges are nearly impossible for the
shooter to learn to hit with, so its better to stay with something that
may or may not prevent the bad guys from sucking up your rounds, and
then cutting your throat?

I didn't claim anything remotely like that. I recited that the best
caliber is the largest with which the shooter can achieve good shot
placement under stress. The point that you are unable to accept is
that this can vary significantly from shooter to shooter and from
situation to situation.

Of course it does. So does how far a car will go with bald tires and no
oil in the engine. A very GOOD driver can certainly make it go farther
than a poor driver.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

Read the very last paragraph.

Read the last sentence of that paragraph. I don't dispute that a
larger bullet has greater efficacy with a well-placed shot. I doubt
that you would dispute that a 12-gage shotgun or most centerfire
rifles have far more efficacy than about any handgun. Good choices
for military and law enforcement but a bit over the top for a senior
gent having a daytime walk.

So military and law enforcement will run into much harder bad people who
need to be shot harder????


Else you would be carrying nothing but a 1/4" ratchet in your tool box.
After all..it will undo nuts and bolts...right?

I have three sizes of ratchets in my toolbox, more than 3 calibers in
my safe -- and I don't routinely carry any ratchet at all.

So you dont have tools in your vehicles?

Just in the truck ... no, that toolbox is at the cabin. Nope, no
tools in my vehicles other than a digital caliper and a cellphone.

Wow..and here I was thinking you were smart enough to have stuff on hand
in case something happened. But then..you do carry a .380...so....

G


And if the safe was a good place to keep your street weapon...what sort
of dolly would you suggest one to use?

That has been my point, Gunner. Those left in the safe have zero
efficacy when I'm out and about.

Only an idiot would leave something suitable for self defense in the
safe and carry weapon suitable for shooting small 4 legged varmints and
herbivores.

Shrug


Which is why I as a very very experienced shooter and
unfortunately..someone who has had to discharge a firearm in defense of
his life...discourage people from carrying one.


So you are claiming that when someone says the Yugo is simply too damned
small for anything...anyone who reads that is simply going to become a
pedestrian?

If he has to carry it, probably so!

Fascinating. Many millions of people carry daily concealed weapons on
their persons that weigh at least a pound or more...and since they are
under great handicap as a group..if they found out that they were
weighted down..would stop carrying suitable weapons.

Excluding law enforcement, about 2% of American civilians have carry
permits and not all of them carry routinely. I guess that's millions,
but not many millions. More than a few of these civilians carry
.380's.


And the ratio of those who carry real guns suitible for self defense and
those who carry .22lrs, 32s and .380s might be what?

G

(attempt to change the intent of my comment noted)


Im rather fascinated by your continued attempts to divert from my graven
in stone comments and whatnot.

Graven in stone? Wow!

Indeed.

Shrug

You snipped out the vast majority of what I wrote...so obviously the
content bothered you.

And Im not interested enough to try to understand why it bothered you so
much.

I snipped for brevity. I've been tweaking you a bit because you are
so closed-minded on this subject and so apparently determined to guide
others to follow your example. I am not as experienced or expert with
firearms as you portray yourself to be, but I'm definitely informed
and experienced enough to decide what works for me.

Im just a harmless lovable fuzzball. Everyone knows that.

As for carrying what works for you..go ahead. However..it should be
noted that you will find out if it works for you at the very moment you
need something suitible. Perhaps it will work suitably, or perhaps not.

Until that time..YOU dont have a clue. Ive an idea..but you dont think
my knowledge is worth spit and is simply OverKill.

Shrug


I am not attacking you nor trying to discredit you, though I am
asserting a differing viewpoint. Unbunch yer undies, find your grin.
Life is far too short to be taken seriously.

Odd that you should say that when it comes to weapons suitble for self
defense..isnt it? Irony...fascinating.

Carry what you want Don.

And you as well. We each and both will, won't we!

But of course mi amigo!

I just hope you can live with your choices. Say..I was reading an
article the other day that indicated that perhaps FMJ might be best in a
tiny bellygun like the Ruger. Seems with only a 6" penetration at most
from most JHPs..it might not make it through important internal organs.

I saw that article. Other data with more modern ammo says more like
10".

What brand will you be loading?

Hornady critical defense, modern ammo designed specifically for
maximum efficacy with the very popular .380ACP.

Will it actually expand at the low velocity rate out of your weapon?

Some links to cleaning up the LCP
http://www.gunreports.com/special_re...ctor423-1.html

Interesting, thanks. Apparently an issue with pre-recall LCP's. (The
recall was for some other problem) I recover my brass to reload for
target practice and have seen no rim tears at all.

And a link to a firearm you really really need to think about carrying.
Its much lighter than even your LCP.

Its only 4 oz!!

http://www.naaminis.com/short.html

That is definitely a cutie!

I really think you should buy one Don...and carry it everywhere you go
as your primary self defense arm. Afterall..its cute, its light, and it
really isnt much good for self defense. But its a Gun!!

G

Oh..btw...this is what Ayoob has to say about the .380....
http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob110.html

"For the backwoods person who does not have these particular threats,
and keeps a handgun for protection against feral dogs or feral humans,
the 9mm or .38 Special can be adequate, and their famously light recoil
makes them easy for smaller folks to shoot, or folks who are new to the
gun and just a little bit intimidated by the whole thing.

Anything distinctly smaller—such as the .380 Auto pistol caliber, which
is literally a "9mm Short"—too often fails to make the cut. I've run
across shooting after shooting where the defender shot a violent
aggressor with a .380 and did little to immediately stop his
depredations. A good hollow point load in 9mm or .38 Special will,
historically, end lethal assaults more quickly. "


But hey...he isnt much of an expert is he?

G

Gunner


Foreman

EXPLETIVE: A bomb, usually applied verbally in hindsight,
which somehow expresses the frustration of being legally constrained
from instant obliteration of willful idiots and conniving assholes.

One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch

On Fri, 16 Jul 2010 00:19:17 -0500, Don Foreman
wrote:

On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 18:18:50 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 19:39:48 -0500, cavelamb
wrote:

Jeff R. wrote:
"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
...

So why do people carry the poodle caliber?

Hmmm...
I suspect James "PPK" Bond might offer a contrary opinion..

...and if anyone suggests that I'm using fiction to support a factual claim,
well, I think *that* accusation could be more accurately directed to
"someone else" (think "Walter Mitty") in this thread (and this group, for
that matter.)

Besides, I'd trust James Bond to be accurate and fact-based way ahead of
"Great-Cull" Gunner.

Also - at the risk of invoking Godwin's, it seems that "poodle calibre" was
enough to finish off Adolph himself...
(Well - OK - it was pretty close range, but it seems to have done the job.)


In the US, and for sure Texas, most armed conflict is within 9 feet.

At that range, a .22 could be lethal.

Indeed. It COULD be lethal.

And if you shoot the perp in the eyesocket..it probaly would be Quickly
Lethal.

Now if you tie him to a post and secure his head...you have a pretty
good chance of shooting him in the eye socket.

On the other hand..out on the street....

and most shootings occur inside of 7 yrds.

If you are inside of 9 feet..Ill have that gun out of your hands and
stuffed up your sinus cavity before you can say oh ****!

Something Im curious about....

Im not sure why a number of posters here think that a street gunfight is
like walking up to the 7 yrd line, they blow a whistle, everyone grabs
their handguns and on the second whistel, they shoot at stationary full
profile targets.

They nearly always involve sudden suprise, a sudden rush of massive
amounts of adrenaline, which either confuses the **** out of you as you
are mentally sorting out the fact that you could die in the next little
bit and what to do about it..or it freezes you like a stone as the brain
simply goes into lockup, or you drop out of your brain and muscle memory
and training that you have done..takes control away from your frontal
lobes as you go into automatic pilot.

The rest of the time..you see it coming..you have no place to run or
take cover..and the brain acts like above...

Some people get a fearful reaction..which screws with your physical
reflexes. Some people get ****ed off which screws with your physical
reactions...and the well trained ones go emotionless and start acting as
a well programmed computer system.

All in the course of a very very few seconds.

I personally used to be type 3. Screaming gibbering Emotion would get
pushed into a small room in the back of my skull..and the door slammed
shut and locked as the Battle Stations signal played over and over
again, while my reactions and "shooters mind" started pushing all the
proper buttons in preperation to put my rounds where the internal
computer told the body to put them. Or to swing the blade, strike or
whatever it determened to be necessary and NOW!!!

Will it happen that way again? No idea. Stroke, heart attack..advancing
age..all have an unknown effect. And frankly..Im not looking forwards to
finding out.

When I was younger...it was an automatic reaction. People would later
comment that it had been noticable when Id gone into combat mode.
Usually while I was puking my guts out in released reaction after the
fact.

Shrug. But as I said..Im much older now..a bit more run through the
wringer. Who knows?

I really need to get out and burn off some of the mental cobwebs..and
work on maintaining the mental programming. Refresh the muscle memory
and update the software of my backbrain..the portion of my brain where
the demon lives. Need to sweep out the turds, the well gnawed bones and
change the bedding.

And perhaps discover how to be a civilian senior with some semblance
of tranquility and a modicum of joy and non-derisive laughter in your
life.

Why? Im only 56 and work hard at everything I do. Im far far from "old"
yet.

And frankly..you seen the stats of how often the "elderly" are attacked?

Far more than the "young"

So when Im "old"..I will be tranquil, joyful and carry something suitble
for stopping a young punk intent on harming me and mine.

And it will be something farther up the Suitable scale than a .380

Moderate power firearms

By Massad Ayoob

"For the backwoods person who does not have these particular threats,
and keeps a handgun for protection against feral dogs or feral humans,
the 9mm or .38 Special can be adequate, and their famously light recoil
makes them easy for smaller folks to shoot, or folks who are new to the
gun and just a little bit intimidated by the whole thing.

Anything distinctly smaller—such as the .380 Auto pistol caliber, which
is literally a "9mm Short"—too often fails to make the cut. I've run
across shooting after shooting where the defender shot a violent
aggressor with a .380 and did little to immediately stop his
depredations. A good hollow point load in 9mm or .38 Special will,
historically, end lethal assaults more quickly. "




One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch

On Fri, 16 Jul 2010 00:23:24 -0500, cavelamb
wrote:

Gunner Asch wrote:

In the US, and for sure Texas, most armed conflict is within 9 feet.

At that range, a .22 could be lethal.

Indeed. It COULD be lethal.

And if you shoot the perp in the eyesocket..it probaly would be Quickly
Lethal.

Now if you tie him to a post and secure his head...you have a pretty
good chance of shooting him in the eye socket.

On the other hand..out on the street....

and most shootings occur inside of 7 yrds.

If you are inside of 9 feet..Ill have that gun out of your hands and
stuffed up your sinus cavity before you can say oh ****!


Dream on, Gunner.

VBG

We all have our illusions, dont we?



Something Im curious about....

Im not sure why a number of posters here think that a street gunfight is
like walking up to the 7 yrd line, they blow a whistle, everyone grabs
their handguns and on the second whistel, they shoot at stationary full
profile targets.



I've been there - it ain't.

Really? Why not let that others know that?


But that's the difference....

So do you carry a .380 as your primary defense pistol?

Gunner

One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch

On Fri, 16 Jul 2010 01:51:43 -0500, Don Foreman
wrote:

On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 14:49:55 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:



http://www.naaminis.com/short.html

Gunner

Good poop, thanks for that! Mary's birthday is imminent. I'll bet
she'd purely love that little .22 revolver, and I think I saw one like
that in the display case at a local gun shop we visited not long ago.


Ive seen those done up with a nice lanyard ring attached to the butt,
and carried on a nice chain around the neck, as well as attached to belt
buckles and so forth.

For a woman however..Id suggest

http://www.naaminis.com/lrifle.html
http://www.naaminis.com/magnum.html

or..the best of them...
http://www.naaminis.com/pug.html
The T version has a tritium front sight.

They can be carried nicely in a bra without being seen. I know several
women who occasionally carry a NAA in their bras when out and about.
Either tucked into a nice holster pinned in..or if their ah...plumbing
is big enough..tucked off to one side or another by...the ah..plumbing.

Personally..for someone I care about..the LR or Magnum versions would be
far more a show of love than the 22 short version......

You on the other hand..would be armed well enough with the short
version.

G

Gunner


One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch

On 7/15/2010 11:23 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 22:30:33 -0500, "David
wrote:

On 7/15/2010 2:24 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:

No need for that, I don't share your learning/reading disability.

Nope, about 5'10" and able to conceal a P3AT when wearing shorts and a
t-shirt.

David


What..you didnt like it being returned to you?

Once again, you demonstrate your shortcomings.

"I don't share your learning/reading disability."


So you evidently are wearing some form of G-string for shorts and a
middie when discussing shorts and a t-shirt?

Nope, just standard shorts and T.

Because I can tuck away a full sized 1911 when wearing shorts and a
tshirt.

While I carry a few extra pounds, not as many as you must to conceal a
1911. I don't mean cover, I mean conceal.

Im 6' 3", and at 202 pounds..with a 46" chest and 36" waist and a 18"
neck...Ive never been called fat.

Must be just between the ears, then.

And if you cant tuck anything besides that bitty .380 away...you frankly
dont know how to do it.

That may be. OTOH, I suspect that your neighbors snicker at what you
consider concealment.


Son..carry what you wish. If you want to carry a weapon at the absolute
bottom end of cartridges suitble for self defense..go for it. You dont
need my permission.

Never asked for your permission. I'll carry what's appropriate to the
circumstances.

Of course you will. Indeedy. Hell yes.
Until someone else changes the circumstances on you..without letting you
know ahead of time.

Shrug again.

That can always happen, you can find that circumstances can make a .45
Backup no longer appropriate. Should have brought that M3A1 grease gun.

You do pray, right?

Nope, no need for invisible friends.

Invisible friends?

That seems to be who most pray to.

Well, there IS the FSM!

David

FSM???

http://www.venganza.org/

As valid as most religions/superstitions/cons that have been around a
lot longer.

David

On Fri, 16 Jul 2010 01:51:43 -0500, Don Foreman
wrote the following:

On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 14:49:55 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:



http://www.naaminis.com/short.html

Gunner

Good poop, thanks for that! Mary's birthday is imminent. I'll bet
she'd purely love that little .22 revolver, and I think I saw one like
that in the display case at a local gun shop we visited not long ago.

Get her the NAA Pug. It shoots .22 magnums and can fire bird/snake
shot. Owning a "sawed-off .22" might tickle her, too.

--

EXPLETIVE: A balm, usually applied verbally in hindsight,
which somehow eases those pains and indignities following
our every deficiency in foresight.

On 7/15/2010 8:39 PM, cavelamb wrote:
Jeff R. wrote:
"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
...

So why do people carry the poodle caliber?

Hmmm...
I suspect James "PPK" Bond might offer a contrary opinion..

...and if anyone suggests that I'm using fiction to support a factual
claim, well, I think *that* accusation could be more accurately
directed to "someone else" (think "Walter Mitty") in this thread (and
this group, for that matter.)

Besides, I'd trust James Bond to be accurate and fact-based way ahead
of "Great-Cull" Gunner.

Also - at the risk of invoking Godwin's, it seems that "poodle
calibre" was enough to finish off Adolph himself...
(Well - OK - it was pretty close range, but it seems to have done the
job.)


In the US, and for sure Texas, most armed conflict is within 9 feet.

At that range, a .22 could be lethal.

A .22 can be lethal at quite long ranges--they have surprisingly good
penetration and a good one is marvelously accurate. The trouble with
the .22 is that it's got virtually no stopping power--"stopping" and
"killing" aren't the same. In a firefight your first priority is to
make the other guy stop fighting--if he gets killed in the process
that's the way it goes but that's not your priority. And it takes a
very well placed shot with a .22 to reliably put somebody down. When
Reagan was shot with one he didn't even know he'd been hit until
somebody saw the blood. He knew he'd been _hurt_ but he thought that
the Secret Service busted a rib hustling him into the limo.

Gunner Asch on Thu, 15 Jul 2010 02:09:04 -0700
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Wed, 14 Jul 2010 23:15:17 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

Gunner Asch on Wed, 14 Jul 2010 21:23:01 -0700
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Wed, 14 Jul 2010 20:45:54 -0500, cavelamb
wrote:

Gunner Asch wrote:

Oddly enough..while Im not a tiny guy..I carry a .45 about my person
vertually every day and no one ever notices it.


If Gunner carries a .45 around all day but there is nobody there
to see it, does it still count?

Not the slightest bit.

Except for that warm fuzzy feeling it gives Gunner

Some folks _are_ just calmer, going about armed.

Personality differences, involving self confidence, modern labor
saving devices, the usual.


pyotr

Indeed. Ive seen a group of people, male and female, having a very good
time, lots of laughter, kidding, good converstaion, no fights
whatsoever.

And everyone of them armed.

Shrug

Silliest story I've heard was the two guys, on a deployment in
Yugoslavia, who had been needling each other the whole deployment.
Finally, one had enough. "That's it, right now, we are going to
settle this! Here and now! Some body hold my rifle ..." which is when
the laughter started. They didn't make up, but they did back it off a
notch.


One can hardly find a group of leftwingers having a good time, without
someone getting hurt.

Sad, but true.

pyotr

--
pyotr filipivich
We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!