On Fri, 16 Jul 2010 09:58:30 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

On 7/15/2010 8:39 PM, cavelamb wrote:
Jeff R. wrote:
"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
...

So why do people carry the poodle caliber?

Hmmm...
I suspect James "PPK" Bond might offer a contrary opinion..

...and if anyone suggests that I'm using fiction to support a factual
claim, well, I think *that* accusation could be more accurately
directed to "someone else" (think "Walter Mitty") in this thread (and
this group, for that matter.)

Besides, I'd trust James Bond to be accurate and fact-based way ahead
of "Great-Cull" Gunner.

Also - at the risk of invoking Godwin's, it seems that "poodle
calibre" was enough to finish off Adolph himself...
(Well - OK - it was pretty close range, but it seems to have done the
job.)


In the US, and for sure Texas, most armed conflict is within 9 feet.

At that range, a .22 could be lethal.

A .22 can be lethal at quite long ranges--they have surprisingly good
penetration and a good one is marvelously accurate. The trouble with
the .22 is that it's got virtually no stopping power--"stopping" and
"killing" aren't the same. In a firefight your first priority is to
make the other guy stop fighting--if he gets killed in the process
that's the way it goes but that's not your priority. And it takes a
very well placed shot with a .22 to reliably put somebody down. When
Reagan was shot with one he didn't even know he'd been hit until
somebody saw the blood. He knew he'd been _hurt_ but he thought that
the Secret Service busted a rib hustling him into the limo.


Indeed. Well said.


Gunner

One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch

On Fri, 16 Jul 2010 07:31:47 -0500, "David R.Birch"
wrote:


Im 6' 3", and at 202 pounds..with a 46" chest and 36" waist and a 18"
neck...Ive never been called fat.

Must be just between the ears, then.

Again..the opinion of a toy gun lover is noted with amusement
G

And if you cant tuck anything besides that bitty .380 away...you frankly
dont know how to do it.

That may be. OTOH, I suspect that your neighbors snicker at what you
consider concealment.

They do? Odd..the one neighbor I have close, wears Thunderwear with a
Sig 220 tucked into it. Doesnt show and he is much smaller than me.

But then..when one carries a gun seriously...one takes all the proper
steps to properly carry it, rather than just sticking it in ones front
pocket, where the coroner may find it.


Son..carry what you wish. If you want to carry a weapon at the absolute
bottom end of cartridges suitble for self defense..go for it. You dont
need my permission.

Never asked for your permission. I'll carry what's appropriate to the
circumstances.

Of course you will. Indeedy. Hell yes.
Until someone else changes the circumstances on you..without letting you
know ahead of time.

Shrug again.

That can always happen, you can find that circumstances can make a .45
Backup no longer appropriate. Should have brought that M3A1 grease gun.


Indeed. Which is why I also have a Series 70, an 870 and a Mini14 within
fairly close reach. A handgun is something you use while getting to a
long gun...which is far far superior to any handgun.

But then...you reached really far on that one in an attempt to divert.
Its been noted..again.

You do pray, right?

Nope, no need for invisible friends.

Invisible friends?

That seems to be who most pray to.

Ah! An atheist! Well..Im Buddhist..so..shrug

Its so good to meet someone with just another belief system. You guys
are much like Christians, just in the opposite direction.

No proof, just belief.

Well, there IS the FSM!

David

FSM???

http://www.venganza.org/

As valid as most religions/superstitions/cons that have been around a
lot longer.

David

So what caused you to drift off into religion from a gun related thread?
Some sense of "superiority"? Or did you really have nothing important
to say..and needed filler?

Gunner

One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch

On Fri, 16 Jul 2010 06:41:38 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Fri, 16 Jul 2010 01:51:43 -0500, Don Foreman
wrote the following:

On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 14:49:55 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:



http://www.naaminis.com/short.html

Gunner

Good poop, thanks for that! Mary's birthday is imminent. I'll bet
she'd purely love that little .22 revolver, and I think I saw one like
that in the display case at a local gun shop we visited not long ago.

Get her the NAA Pug. It shoots .22 magnums and can fire bird/snake
shot. Owning a "sawed-off .22" might tickle her, too.


The only "shot load" that works in those, or just about any other rifled
barrel arm..is the CCI blue tips

http://www.cci-ammunition.com/produc...=3&loadNo=0039
http://www.cci-ammunition.com/produc...=3&loadNo=0025

Im only personally aware of one shoot with a shot load..and the guy
stuck the revolver into his wifes face and pulled the trigger. He had
forgotten that he had not swapped out the shot loads his brother had
given him.

It wasnt pretty. Muzzleblast/shotload took offa signifcant portion of
her face and largely blinded her.

He was so sickened by the sight..he staggered out of the house and stuck
the barrel into his mouth and pulled the trigger. Shot load.

I think he will be out of prison in about 10 more years.
The jury was..not amused with the pictures of his wife at the trial.....
Gave him 25 to Life.

There was a series of operations where they rebuilt his pallet and
replaced the top of his mouth and the back of his throat and put one of
his eyeballs back in..though the optic nerve was pretty much chewed up.
Now if he had only kept his mouth shut before pulling the trigger.

Shrug....From what I understand..they didnt "pretty him up", just fixed
the gross damage.

Saw pictures of him at the ER...grim...really really really
grim....puking grim.

He used the .38 version

http://www.cci-ammunition.com/produc...px?loadNo=3709

She has had her face rebuilt over the years and looks pretty good. The
white cane though....shrug.

I suspect that when he gets out..he will have a "accidental gun cleaning
accident" where he shoots himself 5 times in the back sort of thingy.

She has a lot of friends and family waiting on his release......

Meth head....never smart people to begin with......shrug.

Gunner

One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch

On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 21:35:19 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote the following:

On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 16:11:35 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

Wow, that looks a whole lot like my little poodle snuffer, 'cept for
the shape of the trigger guard.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...l-Tec-P-11.jpg


"According to Wikipedia, Swedish engineer George Kellgren designed the
Grendel 10 and now owns Kel Tec, and is the designer of the Kel Tec
PTA3.380. That seems to explain why the guns are similar in design and
appearance"

It do, indeed!

--

EXPLETIVE: A balm, usually applied verbally in hindsight,
which somehow eases those pains and indignities following
our every deficiency in foresight.

On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 16:58:43 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote the following:

On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 16:14:50 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Wed, 14 Jul 2010 12:25:21 -0500, Don Foreman
wrote the following:

On Tue, 13 Jul 2010 23:37:10 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:


Mr. Fish apparently shared your attitude. He shot and killed Mr
Kuenzli with a 10mm (.40 cal). He went to prison and incurred half a
mil of legal expenses, but nobody can say he didn't have enough gun
the day he killed Mr. K.

The 40 obviously was a good enough tool for the job.

So why do people carry the poodle caliber?

Why don't you carry a .500 magnum or a .454 Casul?

If shotguns are the top-of-the-line self defense weapon, why not a
Taurus Judge? Gunner has the wrists for a .410 shotgun pistola.


The jury is still out on the Judge. Based on patterning on paper..that
gun is a good example of A Sucker is born every minute.

Ive never fired one, though did handle one in a gun shop not long ago.

Simply didnt ring my chimes..and it handled like a brick.

No doubt. That cylinder must weigh a pound all by itself, or 4# with
full chambers.


If any of my friends gets stupid enough to buy one..Ill write up a
review on it after Ive put a few dozen rounds out the tube.

As for it being a "shotgun"....well...while it shoots the worlds most
pathetic shotgun cartridge.....it really isnt one.
Not even with one eye closed.

I take it that you'd also say that about the NAA Pug-T, huh?
giggle

--

EXPLETIVE: A balm, usually applied verbally in hindsight,
which somehow eases those pains and indignities following
our every deficiency in foresight.

On Fri, 16 Jul 2010 06:41:38 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Fri, 16 Jul 2010 01:51:43 -0500, Don Foreman
wrote the following:

On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 14:49:55 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:



http://www.naaminis.com/short.html

Gunner

Good poop, thanks for that! Mary's birthday is imminent. I'll bet
she'd purely love that little .22 revolver, and I think I saw one like
that in the display case at a local gun shop we visited not long ago.

Get her the NAA Pug. It shoots .22 magnums and can fire bird/snake
shot. Owning a "sawed-off .22" might tickle her, too.


Oh..btw..have you guys seen this video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75sWALt2IzI

Even the Brits can do it...sorta

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0nPb...eature=related


One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch

On Fri, 16 Jul 2010 13:33:54 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 16:58:43 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote the following:

On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 16:14:50 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Wed, 14 Jul 2010 12:25:21 -0500, Don Foreman
wrote the following:

On Tue, 13 Jul 2010 23:37:10 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:


Mr. Fish apparently shared your attitude. He shot and killed Mr
Kuenzli with a 10mm (.40 cal). He went to prison and incurred half a
mil of legal expenses, but nobody can say he didn't have enough gun
the day he killed Mr. K.

The 40 obviously was a good enough tool for the job.

So why do people carry the poodle caliber?

Why don't you carry a .500 magnum or a .454 Casul?

If shotguns are the top-of-the-line self defense weapon, why not a
Taurus Judge? Gunner has the wrists for a .410 shotgun pistola.


The jury is still out on the Judge. Based on patterning on paper..that
gun is a good example of A Sucker is born every minute.

Ive never fired one, though did handle one in a gun shop not long ago.

Simply didnt ring my chimes..and it handled like a brick.

No doubt. That cylinder must weigh a pound all by itself, or 4# with
full chambers.


If any of my friends gets stupid enough to buy one..Ill write up a
review on it after Ive put a few dozen rounds out the tube.

As for it being a "shotgun"....well...while it shoots the worlds most
pathetic shotgun cartridge.....it really isnt one.
Not even with one eye closed.

I take it that you'd also say that about the NAA Pug-T, huh?
giggle


Well..they are "cute".

But if Im going to launch shot downrange..it will be out of a 20 gauge
or larger shotgun.


Gunner

One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch

Gunner Asch wrote:

So everyone who picks up a .380 is a deadly shot..and only those who
constantly work with a .45 can shoot moderately well?

Raising eyebrow in sardonic stare

Actually, my .380 is rather easy to shoot accurately, absolutely a blast to shoot plates
with it. The .45 is a bit more iffy. At 7 feet, I'd be willing to trade inaccuracty for
power though if I had it with me.

Wes
--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller

"J. Clarke" on Fri, 16 Jul 2010 09:58:30
-0400 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On 7/15/2010 8:39 PM, cavelamb wrote:
Jeff R. wrote:
"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
...

So why do people carry the poodle caliber?

Hmmm...
I suspect James "PPK" Bond might offer a contrary opinion..

...and if anyone suggests that I'm using fiction to support a factual
claim, well, I think *that* accusation could be more accurately
directed to "someone else" (think "Walter Mitty") in this thread (and
this group, for that matter.)

Besides, I'd trust James Bond to be accurate and fact-based way ahead
of "Great-Cull" Gunner.

Also - at the risk of invoking Godwin's, it seems that "poodle
calibre" was enough to finish off Adolph himself...
(Well - OK - it was pretty close range, but it seems to have done the
job.)


In the US, and for sure Texas, most armed conflict is within 9 feet.

At that range, a .22 could be lethal.

A .22 can be lethal at quite long ranges--they have surprisingly good
penetration and a good one is marvelously accurate. The trouble with
the .22 is that it's got virtually no stopping power--"stopping" and
"killing" aren't the same. In a firefight your first priority is to
make the other guy stop fighting--if he gets killed in the process
that's the way it goes but that's not your priority. And it takes a
very well placed shot with a .22 to reliably put somebody down. When
Reagan was shot with one he didn't even know he'd been hit until
somebody saw the blood. He knew he'd been _hurt_ but he thought that
the Secret Service busted a rib hustling him into the limo.


This is a .22 caliber derringer, one of the smallest, lightest
handguns ever made. It's over a hundred years old and might not even
penetrate your skull if I miss your eye socket. So you have to ask
yourself just one question: "Do I feel lucky?" - Ancient Kung Foole
Proverb

So, do you feel lucky?
--
pyotr filipivich
To paraphrase Al Capone: You can get more protection with a
restraining order and a gun than with a restraining order alone.

On Fri, 16 Jul 2010 19:07:57 -0400, Wes
wrote:

Gunner Asch wrote:

So everyone who picks up a .380 is a deadly shot..and only those who
constantly work with a .45 can shoot moderately well?

Raising eyebrow in sardonic stare

Actually, my .380 is rather easy to shoot accurately, absolutely a blast to shoot plates
with it. The .45 is a bit more iffy. At 7 feet, I'd be willing to trade inaccuracty for
power though if I had it with me.

Wes


On the accuracy issue..you either need to find out what the problem with
the .45 is..or simply shoot it more.

As Ive stated in a previous post..the .380s are indeed fun to shoot
plates with and melons and targets and whatnot.

Now get your nutroll going on..against someone intent on doing you
harm..and both of you moving in different directions...and lets ponder
how well it does the job assuming you can actually hit the guy(s).

There is a famous story (true) about a cop and a perp facing off against
one another in an inset doorway in the front of a store the guy just
robbed. Distance..at most..10 feet.

Both guys fired their guns dry at each other...and never touched each
other. The cop finally ran out of ammo and busted the badguys head with
his baton to stop him. 12 rounds (revolvers) fired..10 feet or less..no
hits.

Both were charged up to the max..life or death struggle, winner takes
all...No second place winner...... And no one got scratched.

Practice..practice..practice until the muscles do the job without the
brain control them. Your life is worth the effort, no?

As far as the .45 gos....my (at the time) 110lb 5'2 wife was one of the
top combat shooters in the area.. 220gr SWC at 1000 fps. Not a sissy
load by any means. Dual recoil buffer springs. Pacmeyer grips. And yet
somehow she managed to shoot against men and women shooters, shooting
downloaded .38s at 650fps..and kick their asses in both time and
accuracy.

How did she accomplish this? We shot a lot. Period. End program. Full
stop.
Rather simple actually.
Practice.

If you have a handgun you cannot consistantly put 6 rounds into a paper
plate at 21 feet in 3 seconds or less..its not working right..or you
need some training.

Gunner

One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch

On Jul 16, 9:18*pm, Gunner Asch wrote:


If you have a handgun you cannot consistantly put 6 rounds into a paper
plate at 21 feet in 3 seconds or less..its not working right..or you
need some training.

Gunner

I had a .45 government issue 1911 that I do not think you could
consistently put six rounds into a paper plate at 21 feet regardless
of the amount of time. It had a stiff trigger pull and a loose barrel
bushing. Big difference between government issue and one that has
been accurized.

Dan

On Fri, 16 Jul 2010 19:03:26 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Jul 16, 9:18*pm, Gunner Asch wrote:


If you have a handgun you cannot consistantly put 6 rounds into a paper
plate at 21 feet in 3 seconds or less..its not working right..or you
need some training.

Gunner

I had a .45 government issue 1911 that I do not think you could
consistently put six rounds into a paper plate at 21 feet regardless
of the amount of time. It had a stiff trigger pull and a loose barrel
bushing. Big difference between government issue and one that has
been accurized.

Dan


Put it in a box, put it in a second box, mark it "Parts" and ship it to
me.

Ill fix it up and ship it back ah..a "tad" better than it is now.

Wont cost you anything except shipping both ways.

Why havent you fixed it up before now?

Does your drill press wobble around and make lots of noise?

G

Gunner

One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch

On 7/16/2010 2:45 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Fri, 16 Jul 2010 07:31:47 -0500, "David
wrote:


Im 6' 3", and at 202 pounds..with a 46" chest and 36" waist and a 18"
neck...Ive never been called fat.

Must be just between the ears, then.

Again..the opinion of a toy gun lover is noted with amusement
G

Nah, my handguns range from a .22 Short Beretta Minx to a 10" barrel
..44 Mag Super Blackhawk.


And if you cant tuck anything besides that bitty .380 away...you frankly
dont know how to do it.

That may be. OTOH, I suspect that your neighbors snicker at what you
consider concealment.

They do? Odd..the one neighbor I have close, wears Thunderwear with a
Sig 220 tucked into it. Doesnt show and he is much smaller than me.

So neighbors have twice as much to snicker at.


But then..when one carries a gun seriously...one takes all the proper
steps to properly carry it, rather than just sticking it in ones front
pocket, where the coroner may find it.

Sorry, you make it hard to take your claims seriously.

That can always happen, you can find that circumstances can make a .45
Backup no longer appropriate. Should have brought that M3A1 grease gun.


Indeed. Which is why I also have a Series 70, an 870 and a Mini14 within
fairly close reach. A handgun is something you use while getting to a
long gun...which is far far superior to any handgun.

But then...you reached really far on that one in an attempt to divert.
Its been noted..again.

Nothing to divert, just pointing out the obvious.


You do pray, right?

Nope, no need for invisible friends.

Invisible friends?

That seems to be who most pray to.

Ah! An atheist! Well..Im Buddhist..so..shrug

Its so good to meet someone with just another belief system. You guys
are much like Christians, just in the opposite direction.

I never said I was an atheist. That's not the only other option.


No proof, just belief.

Well, there IS the FSM!

David

FSM???

http://www.venganza.org/

As valid as most religions/superstitions/cons that have been around a
lot longer.

David

So what caused you to drift off into religion from a gun related thread?
Some sense of "superiority"? Or did you really have nothing important
to say..and needed filler?

You brought up religion, I didn't. Remember this?

You do pray, right?

Nope, no need for invisible friends.

I guess I have to expand this:

"I don't share your learning/reading disability."

to

"I don't share your learning/reading/short term memory disability."

David

On Fri, 16 Jul 2010 22:24:07 -0500, "David R.Birch"
wrote:

On 7/16/2010 2:45 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Fri, 16 Jul 2010 07:31:47 -0500, "David
wrote:


Im 6' 3", and at 202 pounds..with a 46" chest and 36" waist and a 18"
neck...Ive never been called fat.

Must be just between the ears, then.

Again..the opinion of a toy gun lover is noted with amusement
G

Nah, my handguns range from a .22 Short Beretta Minx to a 10" barrel
.44 Mag Super Blackhawk.

Yet you defend the .380...fascinating~!


And if you cant tuck anything besides that bitty .380 away...you frankly
dont know how to do it.

That may be. OTOH, I suspect that your neighbors snicker at what you
consider concealment.

They do? Odd..the one neighbor I have close, wears Thunderwear with a
Sig 220 tucked into it. Doesnt show and he is much smaller than me.

So neighbors have twice as much to snicker at.

Which neighbors are those?


But then..when one carries a gun seriously...one takes all the proper
steps to properly carry it, rather than just sticking it in ones front
pocket, where the coroner may find it.

Sorry, you make it hard to take your claims seriously.

Shrug..you make your posts hard to find not funny as hell.


That can always happen, you can find that circumstances can make a .45
Backup no longer appropriate. Should have brought that M3A1 grease gun.


Indeed. Which is why I also have a Series 70, an 870 and a Mini14 within
fairly close reach. A handgun is something you use while getting to a
long gun...which is far far superior to any handgun.

But then...you reached really far on that one in an attempt to divert.
Its been noted..again.

Nothing to divert, just pointing out the obvious.

Which might that be? That one should violate California state law on
Class 3 weapons?



You do pray, right?

Nope, no need for invisible friends.

Invisible friends?

That seems to be who most pray to.

Ah! An atheist! Well..Im Buddhist..so..shrug

Its so good to meet someone with just another belief system. You guys
are much like Christians, just in the opposite direction.

I never said I was an atheist. That's not the only other option.

So you are a Druid???


No proof, just belief.

Well, there IS the FSM!

David

FSM???

http://www.venganza.org/

As valid as most religions/superstitions/cons that have been around a
lot longer.

David

So what caused you to drift off into religion from a gun related thread?
Some sense of "superiority"? Or did you really have nothing important
to say..and needed filler?

You brought up religion, I didn't. Remember this?

Religion? Odd...I pray of you to explain that to me.

You do pray, right?

Nope, no need for invisible friends.

I guess I have to expand this:

"I don't share your learning/reading disability."

Fortunately I dont share much with you. Particularly the dead sense of
humor.

to

"I don't share your learning/reading/short term memory disability."

David

So David..going to keep carrying that .380?

Laugh laugh laugh

Gunner

One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch

On 7/16/2010 8:30 PM, pyotr filipivich wrote:
"J. on Fri, 16 Jul 2010 09:58:30
-0400 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On 7/15/2010 8:39 PM, cavelamb wrote:
Jeff R. wrote:
"Gunner wrote in message
...

So why do people carry the poodle caliber?

Hmmm...
I suspect James "PPK" Bond might offer a contrary opinion..

...and if anyone suggests that I'm using fiction to support a factual
claim, well, I think *that* accusation could be more accurately
directed to "someone else" (think "Walter Mitty") in this thread (and
this group, for that matter.)

Besides, I'd trust James Bond to be accurate and fact-based way ahead
of "Great-Cull" Gunner.

Also - at the risk of invoking Godwin's, it seems that "poodle
calibre" was enough to finish off Adolph himself...
(Well - OK - it was pretty close range, but it seems to have done the
job.)


In the US, and for sure Texas, most armed conflict is within 9 feet.

At that range, a .22 could be lethal.

A .22 can be lethal at quite long ranges--they have surprisingly good
penetration and a good one is marvelously accurate. The trouble with
the .22 is that it's got virtually no stopping power--"stopping" and
"killing" aren't the same. In a firefight your first priority is to
make the other guy stop fighting--if he gets killed in the process
that's the way it goes but that's not your priority. And it takes a
very well placed shot with a .22 to reliably put somebody down. When
Reagan was shot with one he didn't even know he'd been hit until
somebody saw the blood. He knew he'd been _hurt_ but he thought that
the Secret Service busted a rib hustling him into the limo.


This is a .22 caliber derringer, one of the smallest, lightest
handguns ever made. It's over a hundred years old and might not even
penetrate your skull if I miss your eye socket. So you have to ask
yourself just one question: "Do I feel lucky?" - Ancient Kung Foole
Proverb

So, do you feel lucky?

A .22LR from a 1-3/4" barrel quite successfully penetrated James Brady's
skull in that same shooting. No eye socket involved.

On Fri, 16 Jul 2010 15:32:42 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Fri, 16 Jul 2010 13:30:21 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:



With insufficient penetration, why would FMJ be better than JHP? The
only difference would be the hole and a wee bit of mass.

Wound channel. The bullet must penetrate deeply through organs and
cause both systemic shock (temporary wound channel) and internal
hemorage. A jacketed hollow point (or soft point) blows up bigger and
tears a much larger temporary wound channel and a physically larger
actual tearing action of internal organs it penetrates.

However..if the bullet doesnt penetrate very deeply and is very light
and slows down very fast...it doesnt do a hell of a lot of damage to the
organs OR make much of a wound channel. And systemic shock from a 90
grain bullet at low speeds..is minimal. Systemic shock is the
sledgehammer effect the bullet gives the body as it strikes and
penetrates.

Systemic shock is highly doubtful with any handgun round that might
plausibly be carried. It can be a factor with rifle rounds. The
5.57mm NATO round, very similar to .223 Rem but a bit hotter, conveys
about 3X the energy of a .45ACP.

The stopping power of handgun hits comes from disruption of nerve
function (hits to brain, spine, vagus nerve, etc) or abrupt drop in
blood pressure (hits to liver, heart, major arteries, etc).

Take a 1lb weight, and have someone drop it on your chest from 5' up.

Thats what a 380 delievers in Foot Lbs

No, Gunner. A Federal .380ACP Hydrashok has muzzle energy of 200 ft-
lbf per their published specs, a bit less from a short barrel. Your 1
lb weight falling from 5 feet delivers 5 ft-lbf of energy. (Duh!) To
get 200 ft-lbf, your 1 lb weight would have to fall from 200 ft. It
would impact your chest with a velocity of 113 ft/sec or 77.4 mph. If
it expended 75% of its energy in the most resistant first 2 inches
(skin, garment, sternum) it would still have 50 ft-lbf of energy to
carry it another 8 inches. That'd be an average deceleration force of
about 75 lbf, ample to propel a 9mm dia projectile thru your vital
squishy stuff.

A .45..raise that to 11 feet.. And double the diameter of the expanded
bullet..or in some case..triple it.......

The .380 stops (with one shot)..aprox 27% of the humans shot with it.

More like 60%.

"Top of the line hollowpoint .380 rounds are fairly effective. If you
buy into the Marshall & Sanow statistics, the best .380s have a 60-70%
One-Shot-Stop (OSS) rating.1 Real world examples abound of ordinary
folks successfully defending themselves with a .380. The Czech
military even issued .380s as officers sidearms for several years.
With good shot placement and a modern hollowpoint cartridge, the .380
has repeatedly proven itself an adequate defensive caliber.

However, bullet choice is critical. Factory data on the cartridge box
will show .380 rounds at about 1000fps. Don't believe it. Real world
velocities are much lower, especially from a barrel shorter than 3".
You can expect about 800-850fps on average. That means less
penetration (7-10" in gelatin) and less expansion (.36 - .60, if
you're lucky) . The Federal Hydra-Shok (now the "Personal Defense"),
the Remmington Golden Saber and the Winchester Silver Tip are among
the most potent .380 defensive rounds. Marshall & Sanow consider the
Cor-Bon 90gr JHP+P to be the best of the bunch, but I've had bad luck
with Cor-Bon ammo in the past, so hesitate to recommend it."

http://www.greent.com/40Page/ammo/380/380-advoc.htm

The .45 ACP, stops with one shot...aprox 94-96% of humans shot.

The .357 Mag with a 125gr JHP is up around 75%..and so forth.

So if you are suddenly attacked..and as I mentioned in another
post..your brain and body are going in different directions.....and you
get 1 shot in a good area with a .380..versus a .45 (or others)...the
.380 will stop 1 out of 4 people.

More like 6 out of 10.

The 45 will stop 9 out of 10.

Both one-shot estimates. SD encounters with a .380 are likely to be
at very short range, unlike military or law enforcement gunfights. I
heartily concur that the .380 would be a very bad choice for a
gunfight. So is a .45 or a .357. I'd prefer a 12-gage or a rifle.

Gunfights are less likely for me and many like me than being struck by
lightning. Self defense for responsible civilians is more about
avoiding gunfire than stopping and dropping, drilling and killing,
packing the biggest gun. A very effective passive measure is simply
paying attention. Having skills to kill doesn't mean we should.

This with arms with barrel lengths long enough to launch the slug at
reasonable velocities. The longer the barrel, the harder the hit. The
shorter the barrel, the lighter the hit.. Shrug..simple exterior
ballistics.

Indeed..if you are good, have clear shots and can actually hit the
target..repeat shots with the .380 will often times slow the guy down.
A. If you get repeat hits
B. If the guy isnt tweaked on dope.
C. If you dont run out of ammo before he cuts, beats, shoots you.

If you put 2 rounds of .380 in the bad guy..you have raised the chances
of stopping him to 54%.

Wrong. Pstop for 1 hit is more like 60%. That makes Pstop for three
hits 93%. Math defense is available if interested, but it's simple
enough. If Pstop is .60 for one hit, Pnotstop is .40. Cube that for 3
hits then subtract from 1 to get Pstop3.

It takes 3 good hits to equal one round from a
.357.

Probably true, but few shooters can shoot a featherweight .357 with
any accuracy and they only have 5 rounds which could easily be all
misses. Further, there is considerably higher risk of collateral
damage from shootthru with the .357. Self defense doesn't legally
cover collateral damage. Injure or kill a bystander, go to prison and
kiss the good life (or even the mediocre life) goodbye. Advising
others to go with .357 without admonitions about suitable training is
irresponsible and a disservice.

See above B... before drawing any firm conclusions...shrug

Hence I dont believe..and stats based on real life evidence backs me
up..that the .380 Can stop someone. Sometimes.

And Stopping someone doesnt mean it will eventually kill them. Even a BB
gun can eventually kill someone.

Stopping someone means shut them down NOW!

It can also mean deterring them by dispelling their initial impression
of easy prey. Many civilian armed confrontations result in no shots
fired.

Frankly..I could care less if they die or not. I just want them to STOP
NOW!! whatever it was I was shooting them for in the first place.

And the .380...will only do that at best..1 in 4 times.

At best 7 in 10, but 6 in 10 is probaby more realistic.
More hits are quite likely at SD ranges.

Those odds are not good enough for me, frankly.

Then a .45 is the right choice for you.

Modern ammo designed for short-barrelled .380's and .38 Spl +P has
been demonstrated to achieve sufficient penetration in close
encounters unencumbered by heavy clothing.

Huh? Buy a .380 for shooting naked people? What a concept!

That's a scary thought for .380 shooters. "Will the 1/8" thickness of
that attacking biker's leather jacket/embroidered patch stop my poodle
shooter from even blooding him?"

Skin and leather are surprisingly resistant to penetration by bullets.
If you frequent places where attack by drugged or drunk bikers in
leathers is even conceivable then Gunner's guidance is correct: leave
the .380 in your senior gentleman's desk next to the fine fountain pen
and the 20-year-old LaPhroig singlemalt, carry something more
appropriately heavy without regard for discomfort. It must be heavy
enough for you to shoot well in rapid fire, one-handed if necessary
with either hand, under stress in low light against multiple moving
targets intent on wasting your gentle civilian self.

Have fun, rock 'n roll! Life is far too short to be taken seriously.
Jacket, dress overcoat or parka weather provides pockets that
easily
accomodate heavier sidearms quite comfortably at junkyard in daytime
and orchestra hall downtown after dark.

Downtown, which is where the majority of thugs reside.

Yes, a situation where packing my Para Carry9 or Colt Officer's 1911
in .45ACP would be sensible as stated in the immediately preceeding
paragraph.

Shrug. Cant teach them if they dont want to learn.

Roger that!

Jeff Cooper, or someone once stated..." I dont care if my pistol can be
carried comfortably, just that it makes me comfortable"

What was right for Col. Cooper and perhaps for you isn't necessarily
right for me and many othergentle civilians who *DO* care about
comfort.

And frankly, based on real life experince of friends, associates,
coworkers and ah...myself...a .380 doesnt make me comfortable in the
slightest.
The 9mm with a decent bullet and a long enough barrel are the minimums I
consider being "adequately armed"

Then that's what you and they should carry.

And one should note how few law enforcement agencies carry anything as
small as the 9mm anymore. I wonder why???

Because they are law enforcement. It's their job to engage bad guys
with significant risk of gunfights. That is a very different
scenario from gentle civilians out and about in low-risk situations.

On Fri, 16 Jul 2010 18:18:02 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:


If you have a handgun you cannot consistantly put 6 rounds into a paper
plate at 21 feet in 3 seconds or less..its not working right..or you
need some training.

Gunner

Roger that!

On 7/16/2010 10:34 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Fri, 16 Jul 2010 22:24:07 -0500, "David
wrote:

Nah, my handguns range from a .22 Short Beretta Minx to a 10" barrel
.44 Mag Super Blackhawk.

Yet you defend the .380...fascinating~!

Easily amused, aren't you?

That may be. OTOH, I suspect that your neighbors snicker at what you
consider concealment.

They do? Odd..the one neighbor I have close, wears Thunderwear with a
Sig 220 tucked into it. Doesnt show and he is much smaller than me.

So neighbors have twice as much to snicker at.

Which neighbors are those?

Take your pick.



But then..when one carries a gun seriously...one takes all the proper
steps to properly carry it, rather than just sticking it in ones front
pocket, where the coroner may find it.

Sorry, you make it hard to take your claims seriously.

Shrug..you make your posts hard to find not funny as hell.

Easily amused, aren't you?

That can always happen, you can find that circumstances can make a .45
Backup no longer appropriate. Should have brought that M3A1 grease gun.


Indeed. Which is why I also have a Series 70, an 870 and a Mini14 within
fairly close reach. A handgun is something you use while getting to a
long gun...which is far far superior to any handgun.

But then...you reached really far on that one in an attempt to divert.
Its been noted..again.

Nothing to divert, just pointing out the obvious.

Which might that be? That one should violate California state law on
Class 3 weapons?

Just a suggestion for when circumstances exceed you expectations,
which they almost always will.

BTW, where you live isn't my problem.

When did you suddenly become concerned about violating California law?


Its so good to meet someone with just another belief system. You guys
are much like Christians, just in the opposite direction.

I never said I was an atheist. That's not the only other option.

So you are a Druid???

Not even close.

I guess I have to expand this:

"I don't share your learning/reading disability."

Fortunately I dont share much with you. Particularly the dead sense of
humor.

Yes, I also don't share your dead sense of humor.


to

"I don't share your learning/reading/short term memory disability."

David

So David..going to keep carrying that .380?

When circumstances allow nothing bigger.

David

On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 02:30:50 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

On 7/16/2010 8:30 PM, pyotr filipivich wrote:
"J. on Fri, 16 Jul 2010 09:58:30
-0400 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On 7/15/2010 8:39 PM, cavelamb wrote:
Jeff R. wrote:
"Gunner wrote in message
...

So why do people carry the poodle caliber?

Hmmm...
I suspect James "PPK" Bond might offer a contrary opinion..

...and if anyone suggests that I'm using fiction to support a factual
claim, well, I think *that* accusation could be more accurately
directed to "someone else" (think "Walter Mitty") in this thread (and
this group, for that matter.)

Besides, I'd trust James Bond to be accurate and fact-based way ahead
of "Great-Cull" Gunner.

Also - at the risk of invoking Godwin's, it seems that "poodle
calibre" was enough to finish off Adolph himself...
(Well - OK - it was pretty close range, but it seems to have done the
job.)


In the US, and for sure Texas, most armed conflict is within 9 feet.

At that range, a .22 could be lethal.

A .22 can be lethal at quite long ranges--they have surprisingly good
penetration and a good one is marvelously accurate. The trouble with
the .22 is that it's got virtually no stopping power--"stopping" and
"killing" aren't the same. In a firefight your first priority is to
make the other guy stop fighting--if he gets killed in the process
that's the way it goes but that's not your priority. And it takes a
very well placed shot with a .22 to reliably put somebody down. When
Reagan was shot with one he didn't even know he'd been hit until
somebody saw the blood. He knew he'd been _hurt_ but he thought that
the Secret Service busted a rib hustling him into the limo.


This is a .22 caliber derringer, one of the smallest, lightest
handguns ever made. It's over a hundred years old and might not even
penetrate your skull if I miss your eye socket. So you have to ask
yourself just one question: "Do I feel lucky?" - Ancient Kung Foole
Proverb

So, do you feel lucky?

A .22LR from a 1-3/4" barrel quite successfully penetrated James Brady's
skull in that same shooting. No eye socket involved.


http://www.armslist.com/posts/38848/...-s-22-revolver


And what was the range? It should be noted that it didnt kill him
either, despite penetrating his skull and entering his brain.

Im aware of a lady whos husband was cheating on her. During a party..she
went upstairs and shot herself in the side of the head with a Davis .25.

She woke up somewhere between 5-30 minutes later and rejoined the party.
She was dancing and having a very good time and suddenly fell over dead
as a blood vessel in her skull finally ruptured. Elapsed time from the
shot to her sudden death was somewhere around 45 minutes according to
the coroner.


Sure one wants to use a 25 for self defense? Its Bigger than a 22.

Shrug


Gunner

One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch

On Jul 16, 10:45*pm, Gunner Asch wrote:

I HAD a .45 government issue 1911

* * Dan

Why havent you fixed it up before now?

* * * * * * * * *Gunner Asch

Sold it in 1964.

Dan

On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 02:27:02 -0500, Don Foreman
wrote:

On Fri, 16 Jul 2010 15:32:42 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Fri, 16 Jul 2010 13:30:21 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:



With insufficient penetration, why would FMJ be better than JHP? The
only difference would be the hole and a wee bit of mass.

Wound channel. The bullet must penetrate deeply through organs and
cause both systemic shock (temporary wound channel) and internal
hemorage. A jacketed hollow point (or soft point) blows up bigger and
tears a much larger temporary wound channel and a physically larger
actual tearing action of internal organs it penetrates.

However..if the bullet doesnt penetrate very deeply and is very light
and slows down very fast...it doesnt do a hell of a lot of damage to the
organs OR make much of a wound channel. And systemic shock from a 90
grain bullet at low speeds..is minimal. Systemic shock is the
sledgehammer effect the bullet gives the body as it strikes and
penetrates.

Systemic shock is highly doubtful with any handgun round that might
plausibly be carried. It can be a factor with rifle rounds. The
5.57mm NATO round, very similar to .223 Rem but a bit hotter, conveys
about 3X the energy of a .45ACP.

Wrong. You are thinking of Hydrostatic Shock.

Shrug.

The stopping power of handgun hits comes from disruption of nerve
function (hits to brain, spine, vagus nerve, etc) or abrupt drop in
blood pressure (hits to liver, heart, major arteries, etc).

Take a 1lb weight, and have someone drop it on your chest from 5' up.

Thats what a 380 delievers in Foot Lbs

No, Gunner. A Federal .380ACP Hydrashok has muzzle energy of 200 ft-
lbf per their published specs, a bit less from a short barrel. Your 1
lb weight falling from 5 feet delivers 5 ft-lbf of energy. (Duh!) To
get 200 ft-lbf, your 1 lb weight would have to fall from 200 ft. It
would impact your chest with a velocity of 113 ft/sec or 77.4 mph. If
it expended 75% of its energy in the most resistant first 2 inches
(skin, garment, sternum) it would still have 50 ft-lbf of energy to
carry it another 8 inches. That'd be an average deceleration force of
about 75 lbf, ample to propel a 9mm dia projectile thru your vital
squishy stuff.

Id strongly suggest you review your numbers again....G
Ill give you a hint later...G


A .45..raise that to 11 feet.. And double the diameter of the expanded
bullet..or in some case..triple it.......

The .380 stops (with one shot)..aprox 27% of the humans shot with it.

More like 60%.

We can banter cites around like a pingpong ball. You kept using
Ayoob..but then I cites Ayoob..and you havent mentioned him since.

G

"Top of the line hollowpoint .380 rounds are fairly effective. If you
buy into the Marshall & Sanow statistics, the best .380s have a 60-70%
One-Shot-Stop (OSS) rating.1 Real world examples abound of ordinary
folks successfully defending themselves with a .380. The Czech
military even issued .380s as officers sidearms for several years.
With good shot placement and a modern hollowpoint cartridge, the .380
has repeatedly proven itself an adequate defensive caliber.

However, bullet choice is critical. Factory data on the cartridge box
will show .380 rounds at about 1000fps. Don't believe it. Real world
velocities are much lower, especially from a barrel shorter than 3".
You can expect about 800-850fps on average. That means less
penetration (7-10" in gelatin) and less expansion (.36 - .60, if
you're lucky) . The Federal Hydra-Shok (now the "Personal Defense"),
the Remmington Golden Saber and the Winchester Silver Tip are among
the most potent .380 defensive rounds. Marshall & Sanow consider the
Cor-Bon 90gr JHP+P to be the best of the bunch, but I've had bad luck
with Cor-Bon ammo in the past, so hesitate to recommend it."

http://www.greent.com/40Page/ammo/380/380-advoc.htm

The .45 ACP, stops with one shot...aprox 94-96% of humans shot.

The .357 Mag with a 125gr JHP is up around 75%..and so forth.

So if you are suddenly attacked..and as I mentioned in another
post..your brain and body are going in different directions.....and you
get 1 shot in a good area with a .380..versus a .45 (or others)...the
.380 will stop 1 out of 4 people.

More like 6 out of 10.

See above.

The 45 will stop 9 out of 10.

Both one-shot estimates. SD encounters with a .380 are likely to be
at very short range, unlike military or law enforcement gunfights. I
heartily concur that the .380 would be a very bad choice for a
gunfight. So is a .45 or a .357. I'd prefer a 12-gage or a rifle.
]
Law enforcement ranges are long range???? Odd....where did you hear
that?

And hardly estimates....they are based on real world stats.

But here...here is a cite that may back up your side of the story....G

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/i.../t-220631.html

Or not...


Heard of the Hatcher Scale?.

Chuckle..though it is of 1909 vintage....G

You may find this of interest as well

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_De..._FAQ/index.htm

And this

http://www.ktog.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/Ya...8670025;start=

And I know you will be fascinated by this one.

http://www.mouseguns.com/deadmeat.htm

Straight from a coroner....lessee here...

S/W-Lifer, You're correct in what you're thinking. Yes, the 9mm and .380
are the rounds I most often see on the autopsy table, but they're also
the rounds that usually require multiple hits to make the kill. The
standing joke in the morgue is to guess the caliber by looking at the
x-rays. If multiple rounds show up on the x-rays more often than not
it's a 9mm or .380 (or .32 or .25 or some mouse gun caliber). If only
one round shows up, it could be an inordinately good hit with a .380 or
9mm, but more likely it's a .40 or .45.

Yes, the .380 and 9mm will do the job, but usually multiple hits are
required as opposed to single hits with a .40 or .45. "

And....

"Finally, just a couple of answers to questions: First, Houston is
mostly right in assuming that multiple rounds seen from the 9mm and .380
are from the higher magazine capacity and contollability of the two
calibers. Again, however, much of it is due to the fact that these two
calibers just aren't getting the job done before the other BG returns
fire and sends our BG to gangbanger heaven. Yes, the shots were
eventually lethal, but many times not immediately so. And, yes, they CAN
BE an effective weapon IF placed in a lethal area and IF the bullet gets
the job done once it gets there instead of skipping off in a non-lethal
direction. My advice, however, is to get a larger caliber such as a .40
or .45, practice until you're confortable with it, and use it as your
carry gun, not the 9mm or .380. Practice will greatly reduce the first
IF mentioned above, and a larger caliber will greatly reduce the other."

Btw..that link above is evidently a compiled thread and is very very
good. I was involved in reading it for over a half hour before getting
back to posting this thingy.....



Gunfights are less likely for me and many like me than being struck by
lightning. Self defense for responsible civilians is more about
avoiding gunfire than stopping and dropping, drilling and killing,
packing the biggest gun. A very effective passive measure is simply
paying attention. Having skills to kill doesn't mean we should.

Odd then that so many elderly are robbed, beaten and murdered by young
guys eh? Must be hell on the elderly to be out in a storm..or simply
outside...them lightning bolts coming out of a clear blue sky must turn
a lot of heads.

Wow!!!

G


This with arms with barrel lengths long enough to launch the slug at
reasonable velocities. The longer the barrel, the harder the hit. The
shorter the barrel, the lighter the hit.. Shrug..simple exterior
ballistics.

Indeed..if you are good, have clear shots and can actually hit the
target..repeat shots with the .380 will often times slow the guy down.
A. If you get repeat hits
B. If the guy isnt tweaked on dope.
C. If you dont run out of ammo before he cuts, beats, shoots you.

If you put 2 rounds of .380 in the bad guy..you have raised the chances
of stopping him to 54%.

Wrong. Pstop for 1 hit is more like 60%. That makes Pstop for three
hits 93%. Math defense is available if interested, but it's simple
enough. If Pstop is .60 for one hit, Pnotstop is .40. Cube that for 3
hits then subtract from 1 to get Pstop3.

G

In the real world..it doesnt work that way. But it was certainly
interesting.

It takes 3 good hits to equal one round from a
.357.

Probably true, but few shooters can shoot a featherweight .357 with
any accuracy and they only have 5 rounds which could easily be all
misses. Further, there is considerably higher risk of collateral
damage from shootthru with the .357. Self defense doesn't legally
cover collateral damage. Injure or kill a bystander, go to prison and
kiss the good life (or even the mediocre life) goodbye. Advising
others to go with .357 without admonitions about suitable training is
irresponsible and a disservice.

Shoot through with injuries? Now there is something on a a par with
getting hit by a metorite.

Son...advising anyone to go with ANY firearm without admonitons of
suitble training is irresponsible and a diservice.
Hell..a 22 will kill you just as dead as a .44 mag will. But..generally
it takes a lot longer on average for you to fall down and stop
gurgling.

As for shooting a "featherweight" yada yada....blink blink..what..you
bought your gun and didnt work with it? Or are you suggesting the
elderly are just too feeble to do more than fire off a magazine and then
stuff it in the walker?

Blink blink.....blink.....
See above B... before drawing any firm conclusions...shrug

Hence I dont believe..and stats based on real life evidence backs me
up..that the .380 Can stop someone. Sometimes.

And Stopping someone doesnt mean it will eventually kill them. Even a BB
gun can eventually kill someone.

Stopping someone means shut them down NOW!

It can also mean deterring them by dispelling their initial impression
of easy prey. Many civilian armed confrontations result in no shots
fired.

But of course. Even a plastic gun may do that. So will you be putting
the poodle shooter in the safe and carrying a replica of it on the
street?? It will certainly be light!
In fact..most armed confrontations have NO shots fired.
Can you tell me if your next confrontation will or not have shots fired?

What..no crystal ball? Nothing in the bottom of the teacup?
So..simply leave the bullets out of the gun. Chances are you wont need
them. Shrug. And it makes it lighter!

Frankly..I could care less if they die or not. I just want them to STOP
NOW!! whatever it was I was shooting them for in the first place.

And the .380...will only do that at best..1 in 4 times.

At best 7 in 10, but 6 in 10 is probaby more realistic.
More hits are quite likely at SD ranges.

Lets assume that 60% is a good number. What makes you think you will
get more than one shot?

Hummmm??????

Is that a number that works for you? 60% chance of NOT having him stuff
a knife in your chest and ****ing your face before you die?

Doesnt work for me in the slightest. Shrug. Sorry. Brrrrr.....

Those odds are not good enough for me, frankly.

Then a .45 is the right choice for you.

Indeed it is. As is my .41 Mag, and all of my .357s (with the infamous
125 gr JHP) and then somewhat distantly followed by the 9mm.

Shrug.....

Modern ammo designed for short-barrelled .380's and .38 Spl +P has
been demonstrated to achieve sufficient penetration in close
encounters unencumbered by heavy clothing.

Huh? Buy a .380 for shooting naked people? What a concept!

That's a scary thought for .380 shooters. "Will the 1/8" thickness of
that attacking biker's leather jacket/embroidered patch stop my poodle
shooter from even blooding him?"

Skin and leather are surprisingly resistant to penetration by bullets.
If you frequent places where attack by drugged or drunk bikers in
leathers is even conceivable then Gunner's guidance is correct: leave
the .380 in your senior gentleman's desk next to the fine fountain pen
and the 20-year-old LaPhroig singlemalt, carry something more
appropriately heavy without regard for discomfort. It must be heavy
enough for you to shoot well in rapid fire, one-handed if necessary
with either hand, under stress in low light against multiple moving
targets intent on wasting your gentle civilian self.

Indeed. Read that link from the coroner..some fascinating stories in
it.

Since Dav^^^^some here have a problem believing anything I say that
runs counter to their belief system..Ill not relates some examples Ive
witnessed.

Have fun, rock 'n roll! Life is far too short to be taken seriously.
Jacket, dress overcoat or parka weather provides pockets that
easily
accomodate heavier sidearms quite comfortably at junkyard in daytime
and orchestra hall downtown after dark.

Downtown, which is where the majority of thugs reside.

Yes, a situation where packing my Para Carry9 or Colt Officer's 1911
in .45ACP would be sensible as stated in the immediately preceeding
paragraph.

Good boy. And the thugs down there are much more dangerous than the
thugs near your home! Good choice!!

Shrug. Cant teach them if they dont want to learn.

Roger that!

Jeff Cooper, or someone once stated..." I dont care if my pistol can be
carried comfortably, just that it makes me comfortable"

What was right for Col. Cooper and perhaps for you isn't necessarily
right for me and many othergentle civilians who *DO* care about
comfort.

Ive heard the phrase..Comfort of the grave once or twice....

And frankly, based on real life experince of friends, associates,
coworkers and ah...myself...a .380 doesnt make me comfortable in the
slightest.
The 9mm with a decent bullet and a long enough barrel are the minimums I
consider being "adequately armed"

Then that's what you and they should carry.

Thats the minimum I WILL carry. As with most of those who know.

And one should note how few law enforcement agencies carry anything as
small as the 9mm anymore. I wonder why???

Because they are law enforcement. It's their job to engage bad guys
with significant risk of gunfights. That is a very different
scenario from gentle civilians out and about in low-risk situations.


Yet being dead is somehow different in that situation?

Can you describe the difference?

Gunner


One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch

On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 02:30:38 -0500, Don Foreman
wrote:

On Fri, 16 Jul 2010 18:18:02 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:


If you have a handgun you cannot consistantly put 6 rounds into a paper
plate at 21 feet in 3 seconds or less..its not working right..or you
need some training.

Gunner

Roger that!


I never thought you were stupid Don..just way way undergunned.
G

Gunner

One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch

On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 05:18:12 -0500, "David R.Birch"
wrote:

On 7/16/2010 10:34 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Fri, 16 Jul 2010 22:24:07 -0500, "David
wrote:

Nah, my handguns range from a .22 Short Beretta Minx to a 10" barrel
.44 Mag Super Blackhawk.

Yet you defend the .380...fascinating~!

Easily amused, aren't you?

Of course. And watching the retarded waving their arms around in self
rightious anger is funny as hell.

That may be. OTOH, I suspect that your neighbors snicker at what you
consider concealment.

They do? Odd..the one neighbor I have close, wears Thunderwear with a
Sig 220 tucked into it. Doesnt show and he is much smaller than me.

So neighbors have twice as much to snicker at.

Which neighbors are those?

Take your pick.

No..its YOUR choice. Pick say...2. Go ahead. Make their day.

G




But then..when one carries a gun seriously...one takes all the proper
steps to properly carry it, rather than just sticking it in ones front
pocket, where the coroner may find it.

Sorry, you make it hard to take your claims seriously.

Shrug..you make your posts hard to find not funny as hell.

Easily amused, aren't you?

Actually...yes I am. Ive got a rather good sense of humor. Pity you left
yours at home.

Shrug


That can always happen, you can find that circumstances can make a .45
Backup no longer appropriate. Should have brought that M3A1 grease gun.


Indeed. Which is why I also have a Series 70, an 870 and a Mini14 within
fairly close reach. A handgun is something you use while getting to a
long gun...which is far far superior to any handgun.

But then...you reached really far on that one in an attempt to divert.
Its been noted..again.

Nothing to divert, just pointing out the obvious.

Which might that be? That one should violate California state law on
Class 3 weapons?

Just a suggestion for when circumstances exceed you expectations,
which they almost always will.

Do they now???

BTW, where you live isn't my problem.

Then you are counseling me to commit a felony? Fascinating. You do know
that is..is against the law..right?

When did you suddenly become concerned about violating California law?

When I took the oath to be a peace officer a number of years ago. And
Ive done quite good at keeping my nose clean. In fact..they award me
every year by giving me one of the rather rare California CCWs. Perhaps
they were wrong?



Its so good to meet someone with just another belief system. You guys
are much like Christians, just in the opposite direction.

I never said I was an atheist. That's not the only other option.

So you are a Druid???

Not even close.

Taoist? Mormon? Zargarist Reformed?

I guess I have to expand this:

"I don't share your learning/reading disability."

Fortunately I dont share much with you. Particularly the dead sense of
humor.

Yes, You also don't share my dead sense of humor.

Corrected to reflect accuracy. Sorry if it offends you. Shrug.



to

"I don't share your learning/reading/short term memory disability."

David

So David..going to keep carrying that .380?

When circumstances allow nothing bigger.

What..you go out in a G String?

Damn Dave...say it aint so! Ive seen guys like you in Speedos..bellys
hanging out..looking like a condom on a melon....gack!!!!
Not pretty Dave....not pretty at all......
Fat chicks in Spandex...fat guys in Speedos....grim dude...really really
grim.

Gunner


David

One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch

On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 04:04:27 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Jul 16, 10:45*pm, Gunner Asch wrote:

I HAD a .45 government issue 1911

* * Dan

Why havent you fixed it up before now?

* * * * * * * * *Gunner Asch

Sold it in 1964.

Dan

Blink blink...ok.

Gunner

One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch

On 7/17/2010 7:06 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 05:18:12 -0500, "David
wrote:

Easily amused, aren't you?

Of course. And watching the retarded waving their arms around in self
rightious anger is funny as hell.

You'll find a mirror is useful for that.

As far as self righteous goes, I'm not the one telling others what
they should carry.

Which neighbors are those?

Take your pick.

No..its YOUR choice. Pick say...2. Go ahead. Make their day.

OK, the guy on the North and the guy to the West.

Shrug..you make your posts hard to find not funny as hell.

Easily amused, aren't you?

Actually...yes I am. Ive got a rather good sense of humor. Pity you left
yours at home.

Shrug

Therefore fortunate that I am at home.


That can always happen, you can find that circumstances can make a .45
Backup no longer appropriate. Should have brought that M3A1 grease gun.


Indeed. Which is why I also have a Series 70, an 870 and a Mini14 within
fairly close reach. A handgun is something you use while getting to a
long gun...which is far far superior to any handgun.

But then...you reached really far on that one in an attempt to divert.
Its been noted..again.

Nothing to divert, just pointing out the obvious.

Which might that be? That one should violate California state law on
Class 3 weapons?

Just a suggestion for when circumstances exceed you expectations,
which they almost always will.

Do they now???

Now? I don't know. Are you inventing another Dangerous Encounter?


BTW, where you live isn't my problem.

Then you are counseling me to commit a felony? Fascinating. You do know
that is..is against the law..right?

No rational person would conclude that from what I wrote.

But you did.


When did you suddenly become concerned about violating California law?

When I took the oath to be a peace officer a number of years ago. And
Ive done quite good at keeping my nose clean. In fact..they award me
every year by giving me one of the rather rare California CCWs. Perhaps
they were wrong?

Do you consider "keeping your nose clean" to be the same as "not
getting caught"?

Not even close.

Taoist? Mormon? Zargarist Reformed?

Not into this sort of con.

Corrected to reflect accuracy. Sorry if it offends you. Shrug.

You don't offend me, you amuse me.

When circumstances allow nothing bigger.

What..you go out in a G String?

Nope, lately it's been shorts and a T-shirt, as I mentioned earlier,
but your learning/reading/short term memory disability just keeps
popping up.

Damn Dave...say it aint so! Ive seen guys like you in Speedos..bellys
hanging out..looking like a condom on a melon....gack!!!!
Not pretty Dave....not pretty at all......
Fat chicks in Spandex...fat guys in Speedos....grim dude...really really
grim.

So you already have a mirror!

David

On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 04:54:32 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 02:30:38 -0500, Don Foreman
wrote:

On Fri, 16 Jul 2010 18:18:02 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:


If you have a handgun you cannot consistantly put 6 rounds into a paper
plate at 21 feet in 3 seconds or less..its not working right..or you
need some training.

Gunner

Roger that!


I never thought you were stupid Don..just way way undergunned.
G

Gunner


Oh..Don and all..I found this link to be of interest. It quite good.

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/3...r%20LSWCHP.htm

Gunner

One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch

On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 07:40:31 -0500, "David R.Birch"
wrote:

On 7/17/2010 7:06 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 05:18:12 -0500, "David
wrote:

Easily amused, aren't you?

Of course. And watching the retarded waving their arms around in self
rightious anger is funny as hell.

You'll find a mirror is useful for that.

Why? Will you be behind me?

As far as self righteous goes, I'm not the one telling others what
they should carry.

Which neighbors are those?

Take your pick.

No..its YOUR choice. Pick say...2. Go ahead. Make their day.

OK, the guy on the North and the guy to the West.

Geeze dude ...both of those lots havent had a house on them for 5 yrs.

You certainly ant paying very good attention!

Shrug..you make your posts hard to find not funny as hell.

Easily amused, aren't you?

Actually...yes I am. Ive got a rather good sense of humor. Pity you left
yours at home.

Shrug

Therefore fortunate that I am at home.

So drag that pesky thing out of the bottom of the closet, wash off the
dust and cat pee, then put it on! It still fits doesnt it? Or have
you "outgrown" it abit?

No problem...just take a few deep breaths and force yourself into it. It
will certainly stretch!



That can always happen, you can find that circumstances can make a .45
Backup no longer appropriate. Should have brought that M3A1 grease gun.


Indeed. Which is why I also have a Series 70, an 870 and a Mini14 within
fairly close reach. A handgun is something you use while getting to a
long gun...which is far far superior to any handgun.

But then...you reached really far on that one in an attempt to divert.
Its been noted..again.

Nothing to divert, just pointing out the obvious.

Which might that be? That one should violate California state law on
Class 3 weapons?

Just a suggestion for when circumstances exceed you expectations,
which they almost always will.

Do they now???

Now? I don't know. Are you inventing another Dangerous Encounter?

Which Dangerous Encounter are you referring to? I dont find you the
slightest bit dangerous Dave, just a bit....stupid...no..thats not the
right term...stuperous..thats better!


BTW, where you live isn't my problem.

Then you are counseling me to commit a felony? Fascinating. You do know
that is..is against the law..right?

No rational person would conclude that from what I wrote.

Tsk tsk tsk...Davey old boy..counseling me to violate state law and then
denying it and not having all of your postings purged from the
servers...that simply isnt going to save you.

But you did.

That should be " But I did"...its far more accurate than your sudden and
desperate denials.

Dont worry about it though Dave..no one really cares about 99.999999% of
what is posted on Usenet. So they wont be coming and kicking down your
doors anytime soon.


When did you suddenly become concerned about violating California law?

When I took the oath to be a peace officer a number of years ago. And
Ive done quite good at keeping my nose clean. In fact..they award me
every year by giving me one of the rather rare California CCWs. Perhaps
they were wrong?

Do you consider "keeping your nose clean" to be the same as "not
getting caught"?

Getting caught doing what? Are you indicating you believe that Im
violating state laws..ie a criminal? That, is interesting. Libelous and
actionable..but interesting.

Care to indicate which laws you believe me to be violating?

Be specific. Use as much whitespace as necessary. Ill burn off copies
for my attorny in when you are done. So just go ahead. Feel free.
Not even close.

Taoist? Mormon? Zargarist Reformed?

Not into this sort of con.

Money? Confucionism? Buddhist? Amway????

Corrected to reflect accuracy. Sorry if it offends you. Shrug.

You don't offend me, you amuse me.

Then we are both enjoying this! Bravo!!
When circumstances allow nothing bigger.

What..you go out in a G String?

Nope, lately it's been shorts and a T-shirt, as I mentioned earlier,
but your learning/reading/short term memory disability just keeps
popping up.


Then you are what...3 feet tall?

Because if you are not...you certainly cant be much bigger. Because I
can and have tucked away a full sized Series 70 and two spare mags while
wearing shorts and a t shirt.

Shrug.

Damn Dave...say it aint so! Ive seen guys like you in Speedos..bellys
hanging out..looking like a condom on a melon....gack!!!!
Not pretty Dave....not pretty at all......
Fat chicks in Spandex...fat guys in Speedos....grim dude...really really
grim.

So you already have a mirror!

Yes I do. And Im starting to be bothered by your creeping around behind
me and forcing me to use it to see what mischief you are up to.

You have seen my pictures..right?

http://home.lightspeed.net/~gunner/
http://picasaweb.google.com/gunneras...63781896124530
http://picasaweb.google.com/gunneras...62305767101506
http://picasaweb.google.com/gunneras...93807266031378

Oh..in the last one..I took first place. Shrug

Say..anyone seen Bruce around in a while?

Oh.before I go back to bed..have you seen this link?

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/3...r%20LSWCHP.htm

Gunner



David

One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch

On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 05:48:51 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 04:54:32 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 02:30:38 -0500, Don Foreman
wrote:

On Fri, 16 Jul 2010 18:18:02 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:


If you have a handgun you cannot consistantly put 6 rounds into a paper
plate at 21 feet in 3 seconds or less..its not working right..or you
need some training.

Gunner

Roger that!


I never thought you were stupid Don..just way way undergunned.
G

Gunner


Oh..Don and all..I found this link to be of interest. It quite good.

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/3...r%20LSWCHP.htm

Gunner


I've mentioned before that my routine carry on my daily walks is a
snubby .38 spl. It's loaded with Hornady Critical Defense +P
http://www.tactical-life.com/online/...-defense-ammo/

On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 04:53:24 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:



Systemic shock is highly doubtful with any handgun round that might
plausibly be carried. It can be a factor with rifle rounds. The
5.57mm NATO round, very similar to .223 Rem but a bit hotter, conveys
about 3X the energy of a .45ACP.

Wrong. You are thinking of Hydrostatic Shock.

Systemic shock is a very vague term, not included in medical
definitions like
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shock_(circulatory)

Hydrostatic shock is the only form of systemic shock related to energy
of a striking projectile.

No, Gunner. A Federal .380ACP Hydrashok has muzzle energy of 200 ft-
lbf per their published specs, a bit less from a short barrel. Your 1
lb weight falling from 5 feet delivers 5 ft-lbf of energy. (Duh!) To
get 200 ft-lbf, your 1 lb weight would have to fall from 200 ft. It
would impact your chest with a velocity of 113 ft/sec or 77.4 mph. If
it expended 75% of its energy in the most resistant first 2 inches
(skin, garment, sternum) it would still have 50 ft-lbf of energy to
carry it another 8 inches. That'd be an average deceleration force of
about 75 lbf, ample to propel a 9mm dia projectile thru your vital
squishy stuff.

Id strongly suggest you review your numbers again....G
Ill give you a hint later...G

I've reviewed both my numbers and yours. My numbers are correct, some
quite obviously so. A 1 lb weight dropped from a height of 5 feet
has 5 ft-lbf of energy.

The energy of a .380ACP round is published data.
http://www.federalpremium.com/products/handgun.aspx

On Jul 16, 3:45*pm, Gunner Asch wrote:


Ah! *An atheist! *Well..Im Buddhist..so..shrug


BULL****.

Don Foreman wrote:

Skin and leather are surprisingly resistant to penetration by bullets.
If you frequent places where attack by drugged or drunk bikers in
leathers is even conceivable then Gunner's guidance is correct: leave
the .380 in your senior gentleman's desk next to the fine fountain pen
and the 20-year-old LaPhroig singlemalt, carry something more
appropriately heavy without regard for discomfort. It must be heavy
enough for you to shoot well in rapid fire, one-handed if necessary
with either hand, under stress in low light against multiple moving
targets intent on wasting your gentle civilian self.



But that's not self defense (as you correctly pointed out).

That's hunting things that hunt back.

Even a .45 would be a bad choice there (except in the movies).

7.62 with an M1A launcher would be my first choice.

Second choice would be a L.A.W.

But that's just me.

Brute force works exceptionally well - IF you use enough of it...


--

Richard Lamb

On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 11:05:03 -0500, Don Foreman
wrote:

On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 05:48:51 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 04:54:32 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 02:30:38 -0500, Don Foreman
wrote:

On Fri, 16 Jul 2010 18:18:02 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:


If you have a handgun you cannot consistantly put 6 rounds into a paper
plate at 21 feet in 3 seconds or less..its not working right..or you
need some training.

Gunner

Roger that!


I never thought you were stupid Don..just way way undergunned.
G

Gunner


Oh..Don and all..I found this link to be of interest. It quite good.

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/3...r%20LSWCHP.htm

Gunner


I've mentioned before that my routine carry on my daily walks is a
snubby .38 spl. It's loaded with Hornady Critical Defense +P
http://www.tactical-life.com/online/...-defense-ammo/


Goood boy!!!!! Very good choice!

And you havent put that .380 away yet????


Gunner

One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch

On 7/17/2010 8:07 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 07:40:31 -0500, "David
wrote:

On 7/17/2010 7:06 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 05:18:12 -0500, "David
wrote:

Easily amused, aren't you?

Of course. And watching the retarded waving their arms around in self
rightious anger is funny as hell.

You'll find a mirror is useful for that.

Why? Will you be behind me?

If I am, I'll be able to see the retarded waving his arms around in
self rightious (sic) anger.


As far as self righteous goes, I'm not the one telling others what
they should carry.

Which neighbors are those?

Take your pick.

No..its YOUR choice. Pick say...2. Go ahead. Make their day.

OK, the guy on the North and the guy to the West.

Geeze dude ...both of those lots havent had a house on them for 5 yrs.

They moved away from you? Imagine that!

You certainly ant paying very good attention!

That would require caring.

Actually...yes I am. Ive got a rather good sense of humor. Pity you left
yours at home.

Shrug

Therefore fortunate that I am at home.

So drag that pesky thing out of the bottom of the closet, wash off the
dust and cat pee, then put it on! It still fits doesnt it? Or have
you "outgrown" it abit?

I'm employing it now as I laugh at you.

Now? I don't know. Are you inventing another Dangerous Encounter?

Which Dangerous Encounter are you referring to? I dont find you the
slightest bit dangerous Dave, just a bit....stupid...no..thats not the
right term...stuperous..thats better!

Do you mean stuporous?

No rational person would conclude that from what I wrote.

Tsk tsk tsk...Davey old boy..counseling me to violate state law and then
denying it and not having all of your postings purged from the
servers...that simply isnt going to save you.

But you did.

That should be " But I did"...its far more accurate than your sudden and
desperate denials.

No denials, I just have a lot firmer grip on reality than you've ever
known.

Dont worry about it though Dave..no one really cares about 99.999999% of
what is posted on Usenet. So they wont be coming and kicking down your
doors anytime soon.

Who's Dave?


Do you consider "keeping your nose clean" to be the same as "not
getting caught"?

Getting caught doing what? Are you indicating you believe that Im
violating state laws..ie a criminal? That, is interesting. Libelous and
actionable..but interesting.

Not really, I made no accusation, I just asked a question. There sure
are a lot of things you know nothing about.


Care to indicate which laws you believe me to be violating?

Be specific. Use as much whitespace as necessary. Ill burn off copies
for my attorny in when you are done. So just go ahead. Feel free.

Feel free to ask your attorny (sic) about the definition of libel.

Not even close.

Taoist? Mormon? Zargarist Reformed?

Not into this sort of con.

Money? Confucionism? Buddhist? Amway????

Try agnostic pantheist.


Corrected to reflect accuracy. Sorry if it offends you. Shrug.

You don't offend me, you amuse me.

Then we are both enjoying this! Bravo!!

Although your ignorance is rapidly becoming less amusing.

Nope, lately it's been shorts and a T-shirt, as I mentioned earlier,
but your learning/reading/short term memory disability just keeps
popping up.

Then you are what...3 feet tall?

5'10"

Because if you are not...you certainly cant be much bigger. Because I
can and have tucked away a full sized Series 70 and two spare mags while
wearing shorts and a t shirt.

I believe that you thought they were concealed, I doubt anyone else did.


So you already have a mirror!

Yes I do. And Im starting to be bothered by your creeping around behind
me and forcing me to use it to see what mischief you are up to.

Not able to turn around? Another one of your paranoid fantasies?


You have seen my pictures..right?

http://home.lightspeed.net/~gunner/
http://picasaweb.google.com/gunneras...63781896124530
http://picasaweb.google.com/gunneras...62305767101506
http://picasaweb.google.com/gunneras...93807266031378

Oh, gee, a bunch of pix of somebody, only one with a clear shot of the
face, and that one not attached to a body for reference. Why are you
wearing that blue collar?

Oh..in the last one..I took first place. Shrug

I suppose somebody did.

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/3...r%20LSWCHP.htm

I only have one .38 Special, an aluminum frame Colt Agent that I got
cheap. It shoots OK, but not as useful for concealed carry as my P3AT.

David

On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 17:37:42 -0500, "David R.Birch"
wrote:

On 7/17/2010 8:07 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 07:40:31 -0500, "David
wrote:

On 7/17/2010 7:06 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 05:18:12 -0500, "David
wrote:

Easily amused, aren't you?

Of course. And watching the retarded waving their arms around in self
rightious anger is funny as hell.

You'll find a mirror is useful for that.

Why? Will you be behind me?

If I am, I'll be able to see the retarded waving his arms around in
self rightious (sic) anger.


As far as self righteous goes, I'm not the one telling others what
they should carry.

Which neighbors are those?

Take your pick.

No..its YOUR choice. Pick say...2. Go ahead. Make their day.

OK, the guy on the North and the guy to the West.

Geeze dude ...both of those lots havent had a house on them for 5 yrs.

They moved away from you? Imagine that!

You certainly ant paying very good attention!

That would require caring.

Actually...yes I am. Ive got a rather good sense of humor. Pity you left
yours at home.

Shrug

Therefore fortunate that I am at home.

So drag that pesky thing out of the bottom of the closet, wash off the
dust and cat pee, then put it on! It still fits doesnt it? Or have
you "outgrown" it abit?

I'm employing it now as I laugh at you.

Now? I don't know. Are you inventing another Dangerous Encounter?

Which Dangerous Encounter are you referring to? I dont find you the
slightest bit dangerous Dave, just a bit....stupid...no..thats not the
right term...stuperous..thats better!

Do you mean stuporous?

No rational person would conclude that from what I wrote.

Tsk tsk tsk...Davey old boy..counseling me to violate state law and then
denying it and not having all of your postings purged from the
servers...that simply isnt going to save you.

But you did.

That should be " But I did"...its far more accurate than your sudden and
desperate denials.

No denials, I just have a lot firmer grip on reality than you've ever
known.

Dont worry about it though Dave..no one really cares about 99.999999% of
what is posted on Usenet. So they wont be coming and kicking down your
doors anytime soon.

Who's Dave?


Do you consider "keeping your nose clean" to be the same as "not
getting caught"?

Getting caught doing what? Are you indicating you believe that Im
violating state laws..ie a criminal? That, is interesting. Libelous and
actionable..but interesting.

Not really, I made no accusation, I just asked a question. There sure
are a lot of things you know nothing about.


Care to indicate which laws you believe me to be violating?

Be specific. Use as much whitespace as necessary. Ill burn off copies
for my attorny in when you are done. So just go ahead. Feel free.

Feel free to ask your attorny (sic) about the definition of libel.

Not even close.

Taoist? Mormon? Zargarist Reformed?

Not into this sort of con.

Money? Confucionism? Buddhist? Amway????

Try agnostic pantheist.

Wow!! Im impressed!! Thats so Cool! Im gonna have to remember that
one!!

Well done Dave! Very creative!!


Corrected to reflect accuracy. Sorry if it offends you. Shrug.

You don't offend me, you amuse me.

Then we are both enjoying this! Bravo!!

Although your ignorance is rapidly becoming less amusing.

So you dont like me making fun of you?

Then you should definately not appeal to some of the non gods you dont
believe in!!


Nope, lately it's been shorts and a T-shirt, as I mentioned earlier,
but your learning/reading/short term memory disability just keeps
popping up.

Then you are what...3 feet tall?

5'10"

Then you are shaped like a ballon? Over inflated ballon? Then you may
indeed have a problem. Even masking tape on a ballon is noticable.

Because if you are not...you certainly cant be much bigger. Because I
can and have tucked away a full sized Series 70 and two spare mags while
wearing shorts and a t shirt.

I believe that you thought they were concealed, I doubt anyone else did.

VBG Have you had these periods of fantasy and superiority checked by
your head shrinker?


So you already have a mirror!

Yes I do. And Im starting to be bothered by your creeping around behind
me and forcing me to use it to see what mischief you are up to.

Not able to turn around? Another one of your paranoid fantasies?


You have seen my pictures..right?

http://home.lightspeed.net/~gunner/
http://picasaweb.google.com/gunneras...63781896124530
http://picasaweb.google.com/gunneras...62305767101506
http://picasaweb.google.com/gunneras...93807266031378

Oh, gee, a bunch of pix of somebody, only one with a clear shot of the
face, and that one not attached to a body for reference. Why are you
wearing that blue collar?

So thats not me? And which blue collar?...sure you arent looking
somewhere else?? G Ah! Thats Opie the dog. RIP

I still miss him.

Anyways..where were we? Oh yes...

Oh..in the last one..I took first place. Shrug

I suppose somebody did.

Indeed. G


http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/3...r%20LSWCHP.htm

I only have one .38 Special, an aluminum frame Colt Agent that I got
cheap. It shoots OK, but not as useful for concealed carry as my P3AT.

David

So a very light, more than powerful enough small..very small revolver
that can shoot a big bullet fast enough to do a one stop shot..is not as
handy as the poodle shooter?

OhKay!

Its been nice chatting with you Dave, but Ill be running now...see ya.

(as Gunner slides sideways away from the obvious madman)



One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch

"Don Foreman" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 05:48:51 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 04:54:32 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 02:30:38 -0500, Don Foreman
wrote:

On Fri, 16 Jul 2010 18:18:02 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:


If you have a handgun you cannot consistantly put 6 rounds into a paper
plate at 21 feet in 3 seconds or less..its not working right..or you
need some training.

Gunner

Roger that!


I never thought you were stupid Don..just way way undergunned.
G

Gunner


Oh..Don and all..I found this link to be of interest. It quite good.

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/3...r%20LSWCHP.htm

Gunner


I've mentioned before that my routine carry on my daily walks is a
snubby .38 spl. It's loaded with Hornady Critical Defense +P
http://www.tactical-life.com/online/...-defense-ammo/

More than enough.
Hit someone with that a couple of times and it's game over.
Your biggest challenge or anyone's for that matter, is realizing you need to
do something with your weapon before it's to late.
A bigger round won't help then and a smaller one won't matter either. You
are actually better off in that case because you realize in advance that you
are effectively unarmed.

JC

Don Foreman wrote:

What brand will you be loading?

Hornady critical defense, modern ammo designed specifically for
maximum efficacy with the very popular .380ACP.

How did you pick your ammo? I'm using .380 RP Golden Sabres that are getting old as I
haven't been able to buy new to replace them.

I'm open to other choices if I can get enough to function check the firearm and still have
enough for the magazines.

My informal penetration tests show just about all .380 gets to the other side of a pine
2x4 and stops.

The human body isn't as sturdy as a 2x4.

Wes


--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller

On Sun, 18 Jul 2010 01:54:53 -0500, Don Foreman
wrote:

On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 11:52:16 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 11:05:03 -0500, Don Foreman
wrote:

On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 05:48:51 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 04:54:32 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 02:30:38 -0500, Don Foreman
wrote:

On Fri, 16 Jul 2010 18:18:02 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:


If you have a handgun you cannot consistantly put 6 rounds into a paper
plate at 21 feet in 3 seconds or less..its not working right..or you
need some training.

Gunner

Roger that!


I never thought you were stupid Don..just way way undergunned.
G

Gunner


Oh..Don and all..I found this link to be of interest. It quite good.

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/3...r%20LSWCHP.htm

Gunner


I've mentioned before that my routine carry on my daily walks is a
snubby .38 spl. It's loaded with Hornady Critical Defense +P
http://www.tactical-life.com/online/...-defense-ammo/


Goood boy!!!!! Very good choice!

And you havent put that .380 away yet????

Gunner

Well yeah, for a few days anyway. Only trousers I have at the lake
are Levi's and the little wheelgun (with pocket holster) is no bother
at all in the right front pocket of my jeans.

I carry the .38 snubby here not so much because it's more formidable
but simply because I like it! I like that little bump of my thumb
knuckle against a little sump'n in my pocket with each stride when I'm
on a trail more than a mile from the nearest road or house.

I brought the Para Carry9 this time too, but only because I'm overdue
for a bit of practice with it. A 1911 was in the kit last trip.

I don't dispute your assertion that the .380 is less efficacious than
a .45, though you obviously exaggerate shamelessly for emphasis. One
pound from five feet indeed! G


You somehow forgot accelleration. I didnt provide that example...it came
from the web, from a gun writers article. Ill try to find it again.


You don't need to do that. I don't think anyone doubts that a .45 is
about twice as much gun as a .380. Your point about "only
smaller assailants attack when carrying a .380" (or something like
that) was a good hit, fetched a grin.

G

Here's the key difference between our points of view: you clearly
need to feel that you have the best possible chance of prevailing
against any attack as you routinely go in harm's way. It's a
warrior, combatant mentality that works well for military and law
enforcement because it improves probability of survival.

And thats a bad thing for the average civilian????

I don't need nearly that level of security to feel comfortable, and
I'm not willing to tolerate even minimal inconvenience to have it. I
lived for nearly 40 years since military service owning no handguns at
all, and was never attacked. If having a .380 either deflects or
stops even 25% of my future assailants, then my mean time between
suffered murders becomes maybe 80 years. I'm already 68. Works fer
me.

Which means 75% of them wind up killing you. Right?


I'm not saying your viewpoint is wrong. I do say that it doesn't
fit all. Some and perhaps most gentle civilians don't have or want
to learn a warrior or combatant mentality.

Yet they want to carry a combat arm....interesting.

I had quite a bit of military training once upon a time, and I am
quite happy to leave that all behind me. I don't have a warrior (or
worrier) mentality though I do maintain a few skills. I'm quite good
with a .380 at 7 yards or less, rapid fire under stress. Not quite
as good as Mary is with her Sig P232, but very good.

Ive covered standing on a line and pegging rounds down range versus the
confusion and sudden emotional rush as you are attacked.

Evidently you seem to be bypassing that bit.....

You modestly attest that you are a very, very experienced shooter of
larger-than-average physique, and as such you ridicule the .380 and
strongly discourage others from having one. The alternative is about
a pound and a half of .40 or .45, or a micro-.45 like your AMT that
weighs little, hurts a smaller or less-experienced person to shoot,
and is notoriously unreliable unless tuned up by one with requisite
expertise nevermind that very few if any newbies might have such
expertise.


Im not bigger than most people..least not around here. And there are
quite a number of similar sized firearms in calibers very suitible for
self defense. The least of them start with 9mm..and go up from there.


Looks to me like you're swaggering rather than advising with empathy
and benefical intent. I wish your considerable knowledge and
experience could be offered in a form more likely to be usable by
newbys rather than crones in your choir.

Swaggering? Ive bent over backwards to be as civil as possible. Im not
bragging when Im trying to save your life. Such would be
counterproductive. However ill you find the truth I speak. Shrug


Experts practice regularly with any and every gun they own, but
newbys don't, particularly if it hurts. They'd be lucky to hit the
inside of a closet without at least several hundred rounds of practice
they won't do if it hurts. Warriors and experts do the drill, newby
gentle civilians don't and won't. Misses, aside from those in
skirts, have zero stopping power. So the newby gets discouraged and
decides to carry nothing rather than a little something.

Hence you dont carry a 44 Mag. The little AMT while stout..is simply my
choice. As Ive repeated many many times...the .380 is simply too
unsuitable to risk your life with. The 38 Special and the 9mm come in
similar sized packages..and are far far far more reliable in self
defense usage.

Adopting your literary style of emphasis: she is later found
raped and savagely murdered, gutted alive with a linoleum knife while
unable to scream because she was gagged with duct tape and a dirty
sock, in a parking ramp because she didn't like the recoil of a
compact .45 or even a Kahr 9 (nasty little vixen) and had been
advised that a .380 was about useless so she decided to rely on her
cellphone.

Son..I never made up a story. All was Fact and true. Unfortunately.

I was a cop for a number of years, and an instructor for far longer,
teaching both cops and civilians the finer aspects of combat handguns.
While you may never hear the horror stories...we do. I in fact posted
some links to crime in your wonderful state..a state you inimated was
largely violence proof. Seems its not.

I'm quite sure that any credible expert or authority would agree that
a .380 is far better than nothing. If a gentle civilian willing to
take some responsibility for her or her own safety finds that a .380
is the most he or she is willing to bother with, at least for the time
being, then it is a far better choice for him or her than nothing.

The idea that a normal, thinking human being who actually knows what a
chancy weapon the .380 is..and yet carries one..tends to leave one wide
eyed and open mouthed in wonder and dispair.


Gunner









One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch

On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 18:28:09 -0700, "John R. Carroll"
wrote:


"Don Foreman" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 05:48:51 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 04:54:32 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 02:30:38 -0500, Don Foreman
wrote:

On Fri, 16 Jul 2010 18:18:02 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:


If you have a handgun you cannot consistantly put 6 rounds into a paper
plate at 21 feet in 3 seconds or less..its not working right..or you
need some training.

Gunner

Roger that!


I never thought you were stupid Don..just way way undergunned.
G

Gunner


Oh..Don and all..I found this link to be of interest. It quite good.

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/3...r%20LSWCHP.htm

Gunner


I've mentioned before that my routine carry on my daily walks is a
snubby .38 spl. It's loaded with Hornady Critical Defense +P
http://www.tactical-life.com/online/...-defense-ammo/

More than enough.
Hit someone with that a couple of times and it's game over.

Indeed. But better yet..its likely that the only shot you get has a
good..very good chance of stopping the guy. A second shot may not be
possible.

Your biggest challenge or anyone's for that matter, is realizing you need to
do something with your weapon before it's to late.

True indeed.

A bigger round won't help then and a smaller one won't matter either. You
are actually better off in that case because you realize in advance that you
are effectively unarmed.

Sometimes that is indeed true. However hugging the shadows is not what
they want to do.


JC


One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch

On Sun, 18 Jul 2010 06:32:11 -0400, Wes
wrote:

Don Foreman wrote:

What brand will you be loading?

Hornady critical defense, modern ammo designed specifically for
maximum efficacy with the very popular .380ACP.

How did you pick your ammo? I'm using .380 RP Golden Sabres that are getting old as I
haven't been able to buy new to replace them.

I'm open to other choices if I can get enough to function check the firearm and still have
enough for the magazines.

My informal penetration tests show just about all .380 gets to the other side of a pine
2x4 and stops.

The human body isn't as sturdy as a 2x4.

Wes

Actually Wes..the human body is surprisingly dense at bullet speeds and
has stuff such as bone that is harder than 2x4s.

Thats why a .45 can penetrate 10" of pine boards and never make it out
of the body in some cases.

The body is a very hard thing to model when doing bullet tests, very
hard.

Gunner

One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch

On Sun, 18 Jul 2010 04:36:01 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:


I don't dispute your assertion that the .380 is less efficacious than
a .45, though you obviously exaggerate shamelessly for emphasis. One
pound from five feet indeed! G


You somehow forgot accelleration. I didnt provide that example...it came
from the web, from a gun writers article. Ill try to find it again.

No, I didn't. It's basic physics. You could find formulae in a book
or use Newton's law and a little elementary algebra to derive the
equations.

Energy is force * distance by definition. Force is mass *
acceleration by Newton's law, the acceleration here being that of
gravity or g. F=M*A
Energy = Fx = MAx = mass * g * distance of fall, = weight * distance
of fall. A mass of 1 lb fallen from a height of 5 ft has 5 ft-lbf
of kinetic energy.

The energy of a .380 round is published data. It can also be measured
for a particular load fired from a particular piece with a
chronograph and some simple calculations.

Here's the key difference between our points of view: you clearly
need to feel that you have the best possible chance of prevailing
against any attack as you routinely go in harm's way. It's a
warrior, combatant mentality that works well for military and law
enforcement because it improves probability of survival.

And thats a bad thing for the average civilian????

I'm not labelling it good or bad, right or wrong. It just isn't the
mentality of most gentle civilians.