On Fri, 16 Jul 2010 15:32:42 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Fri, 16 Jul 2010 13:30:21 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:



With insufficient penetration, why would FMJ be better than JHP? The
only difference would be the hole and a wee bit of mass.

Wound channel. The bullet must penetrate deeply through organs and
cause both systemic shock (temporary wound channel) and internal
hemorage. A jacketed hollow point (or soft point) blows up bigger and
tears a much larger temporary wound channel and a physically larger
actual tearing action of internal organs it penetrates.

However..if the bullet doesnt penetrate very deeply and is very light
and slows down very fast...it doesnt do a hell of a lot of damage to the
organs OR make much of a wound channel. And systemic shock from a 90
grain bullet at low speeds..is minimal. Systemic shock is the
sledgehammer effect the bullet gives the body as it strikes and
penetrates.

Systemic shock is highly doubtful with any handgun round that might
plausibly be carried. It can be a factor with rifle rounds. The
5.57mm NATO round, very similar to .223 Rem but a bit hotter, conveys
about 3X the energy of a .45ACP.

The stopping power of handgun hits comes from disruption of nerve
function (hits to brain, spine, vagus nerve, etc) or abrupt drop in
blood pressure (hits to liver, heart, major arteries, etc).

Take a 1lb weight, and have someone drop it on your chest from 5' up.

Thats what a 380 delievers in Foot Lbs

No, Gunner. A Federal .380ACP Hydrashok has muzzle energy of 200 ft-
lbf per their published specs, a bit less from a short barrel. Your 1
lb weight falling from 5 feet delivers 5 ft-lbf of energy. (Duh!) To
get 200 ft-lbf, your 1 lb weight would have to fall from 200 ft. It
would impact your chest with a velocity of 113 ft/sec or 77.4 mph. If
it expended 75% of its energy in the most resistant first 2 inches
(skin, garment, sternum) it would still have 50 ft-lbf of energy to
carry it another 8 inches. That'd be an average deceleration force of
about 75 lbf, ample to propel a 9mm dia projectile thru your vital
squishy stuff.

A .45..raise that to 11 feet.. And double the diameter of the expanded
bullet..or in some case..triple it.......

The .380 stops (with one shot)..aprox 27% of the humans shot with it.

More like 60%.

"Top of the line hollowpoint .380 rounds are fairly effective. If you
buy into the Marshall & Sanow statistics, the best .380s have a 60-70%
One-Shot-Stop (OSS) rating.1 Real world examples abound of ordinary
folks successfully defending themselves with a .380. The Czech
military even issued .380s as officers sidearms for several years.
With good shot placement and a modern hollowpoint cartridge, the .380
has repeatedly proven itself an adequate defensive caliber.

However, bullet choice is critical. Factory data on the cartridge box
will show .380 rounds at about 1000fps. Don't believe it. Real world
velocities are much lower, especially from a barrel shorter than 3".
You can expect about 800-850fps on average. That means less
penetration (7-10" in gelatin) and less expansion (.36 - .60, if
you're lucky) . The Federal Hydra-Shok (now the "Personal Defense"),
the Remmington Golden Saber and the Winchester Silver Tip are among
the most potent .380 defensive rounds. Marshall & Sanow consider the
Cor-Bon 90gr JHP+P to be the best of the bunch, but I've had bad luck
with Cor-Bon ammo in the past, so hesitate to recommend it."

http://www.greent.com/40Page/ammo/380/380-advoc.htm

The .45 ACP, stops with one shot...aprox 94-96% of humans shot.

The .357 Mag with a 125gr JHP is up around 75%..and so forth.

So if you are suddenly attacked..and as I mentioned in another
post..your brain and body are going in different directions.....and you
get 1 shot in a good area with a .380..versus a .45 (or others)...the
.380 will stop 1 out of 4 people.

More like 6 out of 10.

The 45 will stop 9 out of 10.

Both one-shot estimates. SD encounters with a .380 are likely to be
at very short range, unlike military or law enforcement gunfights. I
heartily concur that the .380 would be a very bad choice for a
gunfight. So is a .45 or a .357. I'd prefer a 12-gage or a rifle.

Gunfights are less likely for me and many like me than being struck by
lightning. Self defense for responsible civilians is more about
avoiding gunfire than stopping and dropping, drilling and killing,
packing the biggest gun. A very effective passive measure is simply
paying attention. Having skills to kill doesn't mean we should.

This with arms with barrel lengths long enough to launch the slug at
reasonable velocities. The longer the barrel, the harder the hit. The
shorter the barrel, the lighter the hit.. Shrug..simple exterior
ballistics.

Indeed..if you are good, have clear shots and can actually hit the
target..repeat shots with the .380 will often times slow the guy down.
A. If you get repeat hits
B. If the guy isnt tweaked on dope.
C. If you dont run out of ammo before he cuts, beats, shoots you.

If you put 2 rounds of .380 in the bad guy..you have raised the chances
of stopping him to 54%.

Wrong. Pstop for 1 hit is more like 60%. That makes Pstop for three
hits 93%. Math defense is available if interested, but it's simple
enough. If Pstop is .60 for one hit, Pnotstop is .40. Cube that for 3
hits then subtract from 1 to get Pstop3.

It takes 3 good hits to equal one round from a
.357.

Probably true, but few shooters can shoot a featherweight .357 with
any accuracy and they only have 5 rounds which could easily be all
misses. Further, there is considerably higher risk of collateral
damage from shootthru with the .357. Self defense doesn't legally
cover collateral damage. Injure or kill a bystander, go to prison and
kiss the good life (or even the mediocre life) goodbye. Advising
others to go with .357 without admonitions about suitable training is
irresponsible and a disservice.

See above B... before drawing any firm conclusions...shrug

Hence I dont believe..and stats based on real life evidence backs me
up..that the .380 Can stop someone. Sometimes.

And Stopping someone doesnt mean it will eventually kill them. Even a BB
gun can eventually kill someone.

Stopping someone means shut them down NOW!

It can also mean deterring them by dispelling their initial impression
of easy prey. Many civilian armed confrontations result in no shots
fired.

Frankly..I could care less if they die or not. I just want them to STOP
NOW!! whatever it was I was shooting them for in the first place.

And the .380...will only do that at best..1 in 4 times.

At best 7 in 10, but 6 in 10 is probaby more realistic.
More hits are quite likely at SD ranges.

Those odds are not good enough for me, frankly.

Then a .45 is the right choice for you.

Modern ammo designed for short-barrelled .380's and .38 Spl +P has
been demonstrated to achieve sufficient penetration in close
encounters unencumbered by heavy clothing.

Huh? Buy a .380 for shooting naked people? What a concept!

That's a scary thought for .380 shooters. "Will the 1/8" thickness of
that attacking biker's leather jacket/embroidered patch stop my poodle
shooter from even blooding him?"

Skin and leather are surprisingly resistant to penetration by bullets.
If you frequent places where attack by drugged or drunk bikers in
leathers is even conceivable then Gunner's guidance is correct: leave
the .380 in your senior gentleman's desk next to the fine fountain pen
and the 20-year-old LaPhroig singlemalt, carry something more
appropriately heavy without regard for discomfort. It must be heavy
enough for you to shoot well in rapid fire, one-handed if necessary
with either hand, under stress in low light against multiple moving
targets intent on wasting your gentle civilian self.

Have fun, rock 'n roll! Life is far too short to be taken seriously.
Jacket, dress overcoat or parka weather provides pockets that
easily
accomodate heavier sidearms quite comfortably at junkyard in daytime
and orchestra hall downtown after dark.

Downtown, which is where the majority of thugs reside.

Yes, a situation where packing my Para Carry9 or Colt Officer's 1911
in .45ACP would be sensible as stated in the immediately preceeding
paragraph.

Shrug. Cant teach them if they dont want to learn.

Roger that!

Jeff Cooper, or someone once stated..." I dont care if my pistol can be
carried comfortably, just that it makes me comfortable"

What was right for Col. Cooper and perhaps for you isn't necessarily
right for me and many othergentle civilians who *DO* care about
comfort.

And frankly, based on real life experince of friends, associates,
coworkers and ah...myself...a .380 doesnt make me comfortable in the
slightest.
The 9mm with a decent bullet and a long enough barrel are the minimums I
consider being "adequately armed"

Then that's what you and they should carry.

And one should note how few law enforcement agencies carry anything as
small as the 9mm anymore. I wonder why???

Because they are law enforcement. It's their job to engage bad guys
with significant risk of gunfights. That is a very different
scenario from gentle civilians out and about in low-risk situations.