I built a small room inside my garage that I could afford to heat electrically.

My needs require a programmable thermostat.

Since I'm using electric heat, I need a line voltage model. That changes one's choices.

Honeywell makes a 7 day programmable model the TL8230A that seemed like a natural for my
work schedule since it offers better granularity than a 5-2 day unit.

My first google search was Amazon.
http://www.amazon.com/HONEYWELL-TL82...5734040&sr=8-2
69.95 with free shipping.

Googling around found drillspot.com
http://www.drillspot.com/products/15... e_Thermostat

48.35 + 6.44 shipping


But I recieved it from Grainger today. They sell it for 76.75 and I have no idea of
shipping costs.

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/6WY23

I sure don't understand the marketing strategies but I think I got deal.

Wes
--

The only thing Obama has repaired, is Carter's reputation.

Wes writes:

I built a small room inside my garage that I could afford to heat electrically.

My needs require a programmable thermostat.

Since I'm using electric heat, I need a line voltage model. That changes one's choices.

No you don't....


There's this great gadget called a "relay".... It has a 24VAC coil, and
can switch 120 or 240VAC or even more.

Some are "solid state" - really triacs.






--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

David Lesher wrote:

Wes writes:

I built a small room inside my garage that I could afford to heat electrically.

My needs require a programmable thermostat.

Since I'm using electric heat, I need a line voltage model. That changes one's choices.

No you don't....


There's this great gadget called a "relay".... It has a 24VAC coil, and
can switch 120 or 240VAC or even more.

Some are "solid state" - really triacs.

I'd like something that meets whatever rules my home insurance policy expects to see in my
dwelling.

Wes
--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller

Wes wrote:

David Lesher wrote:

Wes writes:

I built a small room inside my garage that I could afford to heat electrically.

My needs require a programmable thermostat.

Since I'm using electric heat, I need a line voltage model. That changes one's choices.

No you don't....


There's this great gadget called a "relay".... It has a 24VAC coil, and
can switch 120 or 240VAC or even more.

Some are "solid state" - really triacs.

I'd like something that meets whatever rules my home insurance policy expects to see in my
dwelling.

You can buy an integrated HVAC relay / transformer combo that mounts in
place of a cover on a 4" square electrical box and provides screw
terminals on the outside for the 24VAC connections. This will certainly
meet all electrical codes for controlling resistance heaters up to the
rating of the relay.

On Fri, 16 Oct 2009 19:06:24 -0400, Wes wrote:

I built a small room inside my garage that I could afford to heat electrically.

My needs require a programmable thermostat.

Since I'm using electric heat, I need a line voltage model. That changes one's choices.

Honeywell makes a 7 day programmable model the TL8230A that seemed like a natural for my
work schedule since it offers better granularity than a 5-2 day unit.

My first google search was Amazon.
http://www.amazon.com/HONEYWELL-TL82...5734040&sr=8-2
69.95 with free shipping.

Googling around found drillspot.com
http://www.drillspot.com/products/15... e_Thermostat

48.35 + 6.44 shipping


But I recieved it from Grainger today. They sell it for 76.75 and I have no idea of
shipping costs.

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/6WY23

I sure don't understand the marketing strategies but I think I got deal.

Wes
Use a standard low voltage thermostat and a contacter. (HD relay)
Usually cheaper than line voltage stats. ANd easier to find too.

On Fri, 16 Oct 2009 19:21:16 -0400, Wes wrote:

David Lesher wrote:

Wes writes:

I built a small room inside my garage that I could afford to heat electrically.

My needs require a programmable thermostat.

Since I'm using electric heat, I need a line voltage model. That changes one's choices.

No you don't....


There's this great gadget called a "relay".... It has a 24VAC coil, and
can switch 120 or 240VAC or even more.

Some are "solid state" - really triacs.

I'd like something that meets whatever rules my home insurance policy expects to see in my
dwelling.

Wes
There are units made exactly for that purpose that no insurance
company could legitimately complain about.

Line voltage thermostats tend to have a MUCH wider spread between off
and on; gives much more temp variation in operation. I use one to
control my torpedo heater in the garage, almost a 10F swing in temp.

wrote:
On Fri, 16 Oct 2009 19:06:24 -0400, Wes wrote:

I built a small room inside my garage that I could afford to heat electrically.

My needs require a programmable thermostat.

Since I'm using electric heat, I need a line voltage model. That changes one's choices.

Honeywell makes a 7 day programmable model the TL8230A that seemed like a natural for my
work schedule since it offers better granularity than a 5-2 day unit.

My first google search was Amazon.
http://www.amazon.com/HONEYWELL-TL82...5734040&sr=8-2
69.95 with free shipping.

Googling around found drillspot.com
http://www.drillspot.com/products/15... e_Thermostat

48.35 + 6.44 shipping


But I recieved it from Grainger today. They sell it for 76.75 and I have no idea of
shipping costs.

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/6WY23

I sure don't understand the marketing strategies but I think I got deal.

Wes
Use a standard low voltage thermostat and a contacter. (HD relay)
Usually cheaper than line voltage stats. ANd easier to find too.

On Fri, 16 Oct 2009 19:06:24 -0400, Wes wrote:

I built a small room inside my garage that I could afford to heat electrically.

My needs require a programmable thermostat.

Since I'm using electric heat, I need a line voltage model. That changes one's choices.

Honeywell makes a 7 day programmable model the TL8230A that seemed like a natural for my
work schedule since it offers better granularity than a 5-2 day unit.

My first google search was Amazon.
http://www.amazon.com/HONEYWELL-TL82...5734040&sr=8-2
69.95 with free shipping.

Googling around found drillspot.com
http://www.drillspot.com/products/15... e_Thermostat

48.35 + 6.44 shipping


But I recieved it from Grainger today. They sell it for 76.75 and I have no idea of
shipping costs.

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/6WY23

I sure don't understand the marketing strategies but I think I got deal.

Wes

The Grainger URL you cite displays a non-programmable stat.

If you don't mind doing a bit of artificing, you could use a 24-volt
xfmr, a relay with 24-volt coil or a solid-state relay (about $25) and
one of many good choices of residential programmable stats.

This approach probably wouldn't save you any $ but it would probably
work noticably better. Line volt stats tend to have rather large
differentials as RoyJ observed. There are other reasons to avoid them
as well.

By the way, I was a scientist/engineer at Honeywell in a previous
life.

I heated my shop with a torpedo heater with no thermostat, I had an old
thermostat in my misc. pile. I used a small 24VAC transformer and a relay
with 24VAC coil IIRC, line voltage went to the transformer and relay
contacts, transformer voltage went through thermostat to relay coil. Gave
me great temperature control of my torpedo heater, should work with a
programmable thermostat too. I made my entire assembly with a line cord to
plug into an outlet and a length of cord with receptacle to plug the heater
into.

RogerN

"Wes" wrote in message
...
I built a small room inside my garage that I could afford to heat
electrically.

My needs require a programmable thermostat.

Since I'm using electric heat, I need a line voltage model. That changes
one's choices.

Honeywell makes a 7 day programmable model the TL8230A that seemed like a
natural for my
work schedule since it offers better granularity than a 5-2 day unit.

My first google search was Amazon.
http://www.amazon.com/HONEYWELL-TL82...5734040&sr=8-2
69.95 with free shipping.

Googling around found drillspot.com
http://www.drillspot.com/products/15... e_Thermostat

48.35 + 6.44 shipping


But I recieved it from Grainger today. They sell it for 76.75 and I have
no idea of
shipping costs.

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/6WY23

I sure don't understand the marketing strategies but I think I got deal.

Wes
--

The only thing Obama has repaired, is Carter's reputation.

Don Foreman wrote:

The Grainger URL you cite displays a non-programmable stat.

My error.
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/wwg...Thermostats%2C

That one goes for 78.90, which still has me scratching my head.


If you don't mind doing a bit of artificing, you could use a 24-volt
xfmr, a relay with 24-volt coil or a solid-state relay (about $25) and
one of many good choices of residential programmable stats.

This approach probably wouldn't save you any $ but it would probably
work noticably better. Line volt stats tend to have rather large
differentials as RoyJ observed. There are other reasons to avoid them
as well.

By the way, I was a scientist/engineer at Honeywell in a previous life

Too late to make changes now since I have it in hand.

I see on the small print at bottom of the box that it uses 15 minute heating cycles. I
assume (dangerous) that that means it will turn the internal contactor on / off once
during a 15 minute window to regulate heat. Likey they do that to maximise the contactors
life.

Maybe with the 4000# of metal in the room, the temperature swings won't be too wide.

Wes

--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller

On Sat, 17 Oct 2009 00:58:23 -0500, "RogerN"
wrote:


I heated my shop with a torpedo heater with no thermostat, I had an old
thermostat in my misc. pile. I used a small 24VAC transformer and a relay
with 24VAC coil IIRC, line voltage went to the transformer and relay
contacts, transformer voltage went through thermostat to relay coil. Gave
me great temperature control of my torpedo heater, should work with a
programmable thermostat too. I made my entire assembly with a line cord to
plug into an outlet and a length of cord with receptacle to plug the heater
into.

RogerN

I did that too! I also added a catalytic screen on the heater to
mitigate those "kerosene farts" it produced when starting each time.

I now use a natural gas unit heater vented to outdoors.

On Sat, 17 Oct 2009 05:22:15 -0400, Wes wrote:



Maybe with the 4000# of metal in the room, the temperature swings won't be too wide.

Right. With all that thermal mass, the room's thermal time constant
should be quite long.

On Sat, 17 Oct 2009 11:58:07 -0500, the infamous Don Foreman
scrawled the following:

On Sat, 17 Oct 2009 05:22:15 -0400, Wes wrote:



Maybe with the 4000# of metal in the room, the temperature swings won't be too wide.

Right. With all that thermal mass, the room's thermal time constant
should be quite long.

With proper insulation, a 1,500W ceramic disc heater would be able to
provide and maintain warmth in most climes. It might take a while to
ramp up, but once warm, it'd stay toasty.

--
The blind are not good trailblazers.

-- federal judge Frank Easterbrook

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 17 Oct 2009 11:58:07 -0500, the infamous Don Foreman
scrawled the following:

On Sat, 17 Oct 2009 05:22:15 -0400, Wes wrote:



Maybe with the 4000# of metal in the room, the temperature swings won't
be too wide.

Right. With all that thermal mass, the room's thermal time constant
should be quite long.

With proper insulation, a 1,500W ceramic disc heater would be able to
provide and maintain warmth in most climes. It might take a while to
ramp up, but once warm, it'd stay toasty.

--
The blind are not good trailblazers.

-- federal judge Frank Easterbrook

I've got a 40' container color dark blue on the south side of my shop. By
10' am I can't put my hand on the inside wall and leave it there for long.
There ought to be a way to harness that heat and use it to at least warm my
40x48 shop. I know that the air inside the container gets above 120
quickly. Since we only get about 372 days/yr of sunshine.....Any ideas?
I've thought about recirculating the air but don't have any heat transfer
data on the time required to heat up the container air in a circulating
environment. Should be an excellent place for heating water also...

On Sat, 17 Oct 2009 13:39:38 -0700, the infamous "Stu Fields"
scrawled the following:


"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 17 Oct 2009 11:58:07 -0500, the infamous Don Foreman
scrawled the following:

On Sat, 17 Oct 2009 05:22:15 -0400, Wes wrote:



Maybe with the 4000# of metal in the room, the temperature swings won't
be too wide.

Right. With all that thermal mass, the room's thermal time constant
should be quite long.

With proper insulation, a 1,500W ceramic disc heater would be able to
provide and maintain warmth in most climes. It might take a while to
ramp up, but once warm, it'd stay toasty.

--
The blind are not good trailblazers.

-- federal judge Frank Easterbrook

I've got a 40' container color dark blue on the south side of my shop. By
10' am I can't put my hand on the inside wall and leave it there for long.
There ought to be a way to harness that heat and use it to at least warm my
40x48 shop. I know that the air inside the container gets above 120
quickly. Since we only get about 372 days/yr of sunshine.....Any ideas?
I've thought about recirculating the air but don't have any heat transfer
data on the time required to heat up the container air in a circulating
environment. Should be an excellent place for heating water also...

Sure. Paint it flat black and fill it with 55 gallon water drums. Seal
the door openings well.

Now add outgoing air ducting on the bottom of one end and return air
ducts on the top of the other end, using thermostatically controlled
(only working when the air temps are a set amount different) fans to
draw the hot air out the top, into your shop. In the summer, put a
white tarp over it and use it for cooling (once or twice, before it
stays warm for the duration.

--
The blind are not good trailblazers.

-- federal judge Frank Easterbrook

On Sat, 17 Oct 2009 13:39:38 -0700, the infamous "Stu Fields"
scrawled the following:

Oops, forgot to address this part:

I've thought about recirculating the air but don't have any heat transfer
data on the time required to heat up the container air in a circulating
environment. Should be an excellent place for heating water also...

Drop by your local library and grab some books on passive solar
heating and thermal mass. Note with a grin that most are from the 70s
and 80s.

--
The blind are not good trailblazers.

-- federal judge Frank Easterbrook

Don Foreman wrote:

On Sat, 17 Oct 2009 05:22:15 -0400, Wes wrote:



Maybe with the 4000# of metal in the room, the temperature swings won't be too wide.

Right. With all that thermal mass, the room's thermal time constant
should be quite long.


Not counting other losses, the heater being on for 6 minutes will only raise the temp of
the machines one degree. I realize there is more to it but It gives me a feeling that
temperature swings won't be a big issue.

Oh well, I shall soon see how this works out in practice.

Wes

What's that Lassie? You say that fell down the old
rec.crafts.metalworking mine and will die if we don't mount a rescue
by Fri, 16 Oct 2009 22:38:13 -0400:

There's this great gadget called a "relay".... It has a 24VAC coil, and
can switch 120 or 240VAC or even more.

Some are "solid state" - really triacs.

I'd like something that meets whatever rules my home insurance policy expects to see in my
dwelling.

Wes
There are units made exactly for that purpose that no insurance
company could legitimately complain about.

Got any names? I've been wanting to do this since the first winter in
my apartment. I think my thermostats are mounted in standard switch
boxes, so something that needs a 4" square box wont work.

--

Dan H.
northshore MA.

Don Foreman wrote:

On Sat, 17 Oct 2009 05:22:15 -0400, Wes wrote:



Maybe with the 4000# of metal in the room, the temperature swings won't be too wide.

Right. With all that thermal mass, the room's thermal time constant
should be quite long.


I forgot to think about the concrete floor, I have a feeling that is going to add greatly
to the thermal time constant.

Wes
--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller

On Sun, 18 Oct 2009 18:03:04 -0400, Wes wrote:

Don Foreman wrote:

On Sat, 17 Oct 2009 05:22:15 -0400, Wes wrote:



Maybe with the 4000# of metal in the room, the temperature swings won't be too wide.

Right. With all that thermal mass, the room's thermal time constant
should be quite long.


I forgot to think about the concrete floor, I have a feeling that is going to add greatly
to the thermal time constant.

Wes

Concrete has considerably higher thermal resistance than metal so it
doesn't take much heat flow to get surface temp up near ambient. A big
chunk of metal needs to be warmed clear thru before it'll feel warm.

Don Foreman wrote:

Maybe with the 4000# of metal in the room, the temperature swings won't be too wide.

Right. With all that thermal mass, the room's thermal time constant
should be quite long.


I forgot to think about the concrete floor, I have a feeling that is going to add greatly
to the thermal time constant.

Wes

Concrete has considerably higher thermal resistance than metal so it
doesn't take much heat flow to get surface temp up near ambient. A big
chunk of metal needs to be warmed clear thru before it'll feel warm.

Thank you for that tidbit of information. That makes me feel better. I started looking
into it but couldn't figure out how much the concrete affected things.

I have a strong desire to know what it is costing to heat the room. I decided to wire in
a 240v Hobbs hour meter into the heater circuit so I can do a bit of math and dial the
temperature up to what I can reasonably afford. Sure wish they made a 240v version of the
Kill-A-Watt.

Wes

In article ,
Wes wrote:

Sure wish they made a 240v version of the Kill-A-Watt.

So do I, but I also wish the kill-a-watt had a capacitor to tide it over
small power outages. It forgets everything for the least little glitch
that doesn't even show up on a clock. Still, amazing bang for the buck -
but an hour-meter or customer watt-hour meter (not too hard to come by)
is probably actually better than a forgetful kill-a-watt for totaling.

--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by

On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 18:49:56 -0400, Wes
wrote:

Sure wish they made a 240v version of the
Kill-A-Watt.

I suspect an "adaptor" cord wired so one leg of the 240v ran
through the Kill-A-Watt would work. Just double the reading
it comes up with. At least that is what I would do/explore
if I really needed to use it for 240v (shrug).

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email

On Tue, 20 Oct 2009 14:13:25 -0400, Leon Fisk
wrote:

On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 18:49:56 -0400, Wes
wrote:

Sure wish they made a 240v version of the
Kill-A-Watt.

I suspect an "adaptor" cord wired so one leg of the 240v ran
through the Kill-A-Watt would work. Just double the reading
it comes up with. At least that is what I would do/explore
if I really needed to use it for 240v (shrug).
I would want to be reassured that the Kill-A-Watt could carry the
current, say ~40A in the case of a kitchen range.
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada

Leon Fisk wrote:

On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 18:49:56 -0400, Wes
wrote:

Sure wish they made a 240v version of the
Kill-A-Watt.

I suspect an "adaptor" cord wired so one leg of the 240v ran
through the Kill-A-Watt would work. Just double the reading
it comes up with. At least that is what I would do/explore
if I really needed to use it for 240v (shrug).

You are absolutely correct. The Hobbs hour meter, given that I'm using a relay switched
line thermostat, will give answers with only a bit of pencil or spreadsheet pushing.

Now for something really wierd, uncle made a table lamp with a utility meter, to make it
spin twice as fast, he ran the 120v in one leg and then in the other leg.

Wes