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Semi On Topic: Heating my shop
I built a small room inside my garage that I could afford to heat electrically.
My needs require a programmable thermostat. Since I'm using electric heat, I need a line voltage model. That changes one's choices. Honeywell makes a 7 day programmable model the TL8230A that seemed like a natural for my work schedule since it offers better granularity than a 5-2 day unit. My first google search was Amazon. http://www.amazon.com/HONEYWELL-TL82...5734040&sr=8-2 69.95 with free shipping. Googling around found drillspot.com http://www.drillspot.com/products/15... e_Thermostat 48.35 + 6.44 shipping But I recieved it from Grainger today. They sell it for 76.75 and I have no idea of shipping costs. http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/6WY23 I sure don't understand the marketing strategies but I think I got deal. Wes -- The only thing Obama has repaired, is Carter's reputation. |
Semi On Topic: Heating my shop
Wes writes:
I built a small room inside my garage that I could afford to heat electrically. My needs require a programmable thermostat. Since I'm using electric heat, I need a line voltage model. That changes one's choices. No you don't.... There's this great gadget called a "relay".... It has a 24VAC coil, and can switch 120 or 240VAC or even more. Some are "solid state" - really triacs. -- A host is a host from coast to & no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433 is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433 |
Semi On Topic: Heating my shop
David Lesher wrote:
Wes writes: I built a small room inside my garage that I could afford to heat electrically. My needs require a programmable thermostat. Since I'm using electric heat, I need a line voltage model. That changes one's choices. No you don't.... There's this great gadget called a "relay".... It has a 24VAC coil, and can switch 120 or 240VAC or even more. Some are "solid state" - really triacs. I'd like something that meets whatever rules my home insurance policy expects to see in my dwelling. Wes -- "Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller |
Semi On Topic: Heating my shop
Wes wrote: David Lesher wrote: Wes writes: I built a small room inside my garage that I could afford to heat electrically. My needs require a programmable thermostat. Since I'm using electric heat, I need a line voltage model. That changes one's choices. No you don't.... There's this great gadget called a "relay".... It has a 24VAC coil, and can switch 120 or 240VAC or even more. Some are "solid state" - really triacs. I'd like something that meets whatever rules my home insurance policy expects to see in my dwelling. You can buy an integrated HVAC relay / transformer combo that mounts in place of a cover on a 4" square electrical box and provides screw terminals on the outside for the 24VAC connections. This will certainly meet all electrical codes for controlling resistance heaters up to the rating of the relay. |
Semi On Topic: Heating my shop
On Fri, 16 Oct 2009 19:06:24 -0400, Wes wrote:
I built a small room inside my garage that I could afford to heat electrically. My needs require a programmable thermostat. Since I'm using electric heat, I need a line voltage model. That changes one's choices. Honeywell makes a 7 day programmable model the TL8230A that seemed like a natural for my work schedule since it offers better granularity than a 5-2 day unit. My first google search was Amazon. http://www.amazon.com/HONEYWELL-TL82...5734040&sr=8-2 69.95 with free shipping. Googling around found drillspot.com http://www.drillspot.com/products/15... e_Thermostat 48.35 + 6.44 shipping But I recieved it from Grainger today. They sell it for 76.75 and I have no idea of shipping costs. http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/6WY23 I sure don't understand the marketing strategies but I think I got deal. Wes Use a standard low voltage thermostat and a contacter. (HD relay) Usually cheaper than line voltage stats. ANd easier to find too. |
Semi On Topic: Heating my shop
On Fri, 16 Oct 2009 19:21:16 -0400, Wes wrote:
David Lesher wrote: Wes writes: I built a small room inside my garage that I could afford to heat electrically. My needs require a programmable thermostat. Since I'm using electric heat, I need a line voltage model. That changes one's choices. No you don't.... There's this great gadget called a "relay".... It has a 24VAC coil, and can switch 120 or 240VAC or even more. Some are "solid state" - really triacs. I'd like something that meets whatever rules my home insurance policy expects to see in my dwelling. Wes There are units made exactly for that purpose that no insurance company could legitimately complain about. |
Semi On Topic: Heating my shop
On Fri, 16 Oct 2009 19:06:24 -0400, Wes wrote:
I built a small room inside my garage that I could afford to heat electrically. My needs require a programmable thermostat. Since I'm using electric heat, I need a line voltage model. That changes one's choices. Honeywell makes a 7 day programmable model the TL8230A that seemed like a natural for my work schedule since it offers better granularity than a 5-2 day unit. My first google search was Amazon. http://www.amazon.com/HONEYWELL-TL82...5734040&sr=8-2 69.95 with free shipping. Googling around found drillspot.com http://www.drillspot.com/products/15... e_Thermostat 48.35 + 6.44 shipping But I recieved it from Grainger today. They sell it for 76.75 and I have no idea of shipping costs. http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/6WY23 I sure don't understand the marketing strategies but I think I got deal. Wes The Grainger URL you cite displays a non-programmable stat. If you don't mind doing a bit of artificing, you could use a 24-volt xfmr, a relay with 24-volt coil or a solid-state relay (about $25) and one of many good choices of residential programmable stats. This approach probably wouldn't save you any $ but it would probably work noticably better. Line volt stats tend to have rather large differentials as RoyJ observed. There are other reasons to avoid them as well. By the way, I was a scientist/engineer at Honeywell in a previous life. |
Semi On Topic: Heating my shop
I heated my shop with a torpedo heater with no thermostat, I had an old thermostat in my misc. pile. I used a small 24VAC transformer and a relay with 24VAC coil IIRC, line voltage went to the transformer and relay contacts, transformer voltage went through thermostat to relay coil. Gave me great temperature control of my torpedo heater, should work with a programmable thermostat too. I made my entire assembly with a line cord to plug into an outlet and a length of cord with receptacle to plug the heater into. RogerN "Wes" wrote in message ... I built a small room inside my garage that I could afford to heat electrically. My needs require a programmable thermostat. Since I'm using electric heat, I need a line voltage model. That changes one's choices. Honeywell makes a 7 day programmable model the TL8230A that seemed like a natural for my work schedule since it offers better granularity than a 5-2 day unit. My first google search was Amazon. http://www.amazon.com/HONEYWELL-TL82...5734040&sr=8-2 69.95 with free shipping. Googling around found drillspot.com http://www.drillspot.com/products/15... e_Thermostat 48.35 + 6.44 shipping But I recieved it from Grainger today. They sell it for 76.75 and I have no idea of shipping costs. http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/6WY23 I sure don't understand the marketing strategies but I think I got deal. Wes -- The only thing Obama has repaired, is Carter's reputation. |
Semi On Topic: Heating my shop
Don Foreman wrote:
The Grainger URL you cite displays a non-programmable stat. My error. http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/wwg...Thermostats%2C That one goes for 78.90, which still has me scratching my head. If you don't mind doing a bit of artificing, you could use a 24-volt xfmr, a relay with 24-volt coil or a solid-state relay (about $25) and one of many good choices of residential programmable stats. This approach probably wouldn't save you any $ but it would probably work noticably better. Line volt stats tend to have rather large differentials as RoyJ observed. There are other reasons to avoid them as well. By the way, I was a scientist/engineer at Honeywell in a previous life Too late to make changes now since I have it in hand. I see on the small print at bottom of the box that it uses 15 minute heating cycles. I assume (dangerous) that that means it will turn the internal contactor on / off once during a 15 minute window to regulate heat. Likey they do that to maximise the contactors life. Maybe with the 4000# of metal in the room, the temperature swings won't be too wide. Wes -- "Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller |
Semi On Topic: Heating my shop
On Sat, 17 Oct 2009 00:58:23 -0500, "RogerN"
wrote: I heated my shop with a torpedo heater with no thermostat, I had an old thermostat in my misc. pile. I used a small 24VAC transformer and a relay with 24VAC coil IIRC, line voltage went to the transformer and relay contacts, transformer voltage went through thermostat to relay coil. Gave me great temperature control of my torpedo heater, should work with a programmable thermostat too. I made my entire assembly with a line cord to plug into an outlet and a length of cord with receptacle to plug the heater into. RogerN I did that too! I also added a catalytic screen on the heater to mitigate those "kerosene farts" it produced when starting each time. I now use a natural gas unit heater vented to outdoors. |
Semi On Topic: Heating my shop
On Sat, 17 Oct 2009 05:22:15 -0400, Wes wrote:
Maybe with the 4000# of metal in the room, the temperature swings won't be too wide. Right. With all that thermal mass, the room's thermal time constant should be quite long. |
Semi On Topic: Heating my shop
On Sat, 17 Oct 2009 11:58:07 -0500, the infamous Don Foreman
scrawled the following: On Sat, 17 Oct 2009 05:22:15 -0400, Wes wrote: Maybe with the 4000# of metal in the room, the temperature swings won't be too wide. Right. With all that thermal mass, the room's thermal time constant should be quite long. With proper insulation, a 1,500W ceramic disc heater would be able to provide and maintain warmth in most climes. It might take a while to ramp up, but once warm, it'd stay toasty. -- The blind are not good trailblazers. -- federal judge Frank Easterbrook |
Semi On Topic: Heating my shop
"Larry Jaques" wrote in message ... On Sat, 17 Oct 2009 11:58:07 -0500, the infamous Don Foreman scrawled the following: On Sat, 17 Oct 2009 05:22:15 -0400, Wes wrote: Maybe with the 4000# of metal in the room, the temperature swings won't be too wide. Right. With all that thermal mass, the room's thermal time constant should be quite long. With proper insulation, a 1,500W ceramic disc heater would be able to provide and maintain warmth in most climes. It might take a while to ramp up, but once warm, it'd stay toasty. -- The blind are not good trailblazers. -- federal judge Frank Easterbrook I've got a 40' container color dark blue on the south side of my shop. By 10' am I can't put my hand on the inside wall and leave it there for long. There ought to be a way to harness that heat and use it to at least warm my 40x48 shop. I know that the air inside the container gets above 120 quickly. Since we only get about 372 days/yr of sunshine.....Any ideas? I've thought about recirculating the air but don't have any heat transfer data on the time required to heat up the container air in a circulating environment. Should be an excellent place for heating water also... |
Semi On Topic: Heating my shop
On Sat, 17 Oct 2009 13:39:38 -0700, the infamous "Stu Fields"
scrawled the following: "Larry Jaques" wrote in message .. . On Sat, 17 Oct 2009 11:58:07 -0500, the infamous Don Foreman scrawled the following: On Sat, 17 Oct 2009 05:22:15 -0400, Wes wrote: Maybe with the 4000# of metal in the room, the temperature swings won't be too wide. Right. With all that thermal mass, the room's thermal time constant should be quite long. With proper insulation, a 1,500W ceramic disc heater would be able to provide and maintain warmth in most climes. It might take a while to ramp up, but once warm, it'd stay toasty. -- The blind are not good trailblazers. -- federal judge Frank Easterbrook I've got a 40' container color dark blue on the south side of my shop. By 10' am I can't put my hand on the inside wall and leave it there for long. There ought to be a way to harness that heat and use it to at least warm my 40x48 shop. I know that the air inside the container gets above 120 quickly. Since we only get about 372 days/yr of sunshine.....Any ideas? I've thought about recirculating the air but don't have any heat transfer data on the time required to heat up the container air in a circulating environment. Should be an excellent place for heating water also... Sure. Paint it flat black and fill it with 55 gallon water drums. Seal the door openings well. Now add outgoing air ducting on the bottom of one end and return air ducts on the top of the other end, using thermostatically controlled (only working when the air temps are a set amount different) fans to draw the hot air out the top, into your shop. In the summer, put a white tarp over it and use it for cooling (once or twice, before it stays warm for the duration. ;) -- The blind are not good trailblazers. -- federal judge Frank Easterbrook |
Semi On Topic: Heating my shop
On Sat, 17 Oct 2009 13:39:38 -0700, the infamous "Stu Fields"
scrawled the following: Oops, forgot to address this part: I've thought about recirculating the air but don't have any heat transfer data on the time required to heat up the container air in a circulating environment. Should be an excellent place for heating water also... Drop by your local library and grab some books on passive solar heating and thermal mass. Note with a grin that most are from the 70s and 80s. -- The blind are not good trailblazers. -- federal judge Frank Easterbrook |
Semi On Topic: Heating my shop
Don Foreman wrote:
On Sat, 17 Oct 2009 05:22:15 -0400, Wes wrote: Maybe with the 4000# of metal in the room, the temperature swings won't be too wide. Right. With all that thermal mass, the room's thermal time constant should be quite long. Not counting other losses, the heater being on for 6 minutes will only raise the temp of the machines one degree. I realize there is more to it but It gives me a feeling that temperature swings won't be a big issue. Oh well, I shall soon see how this works out in practice. Wes |
Semi On Topic: Heating my shop
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Semi On Topic: Heating my shop
Don Foreman wrote:
On Sat, 17 Oct 2009 05:22:15 -0400, Wes wrote: Maybe with the 4000# of metal in the room, the temperature swings won't be too wide. Right. With all that thermal mass, the room's thermal time constant should be quite long. I forgot to think about the concrete floor, I have a feeling that is going to add greatly to the thermal time constant. Wes -- "Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller |
Semi On Topic: Heating my shop
On Sun, 18 Oct 2009 18:03:04 -0400, Wes wrote:
Don Foreman wrote: On Sat, 17 Oct 2009 05:22:15 -0400, Wes wrote: Maybe with the 4000# of metal in the room, the temperature swings won't be too wide. Right. With all that thermal mass, the room's thermal time constant should be quite long. I forgot to think about the concrete floor, I have a feeling that is going to add greatly to the thermal time constant. Wes Concrete has considerably higher thermal resistance than metal so it doesn't take much heat flow to get surface temp up near ambient. A big chunk of metal needs to be warmed clear thru before it'll feel warm. |
Semi On Topic: Heating my shop
Don Foreman wrote:
Maybe with the 4000# of metal in the room, the temperature swings won't be too wide. Right. With all that thermal mass, the room's thermal time constant should be quite long. I forgot to think about the concrete floor, I have a feeling that is going to add greatly to the thermal time constant. Wes Concrete has considerably higher thermal resistance than metal so it doesn't take much heat flow to get surface temp up near ambient. A big chunk of metal needs to be warmed clear thru before it'll feel warm. Thank you for that tidbit of information. That makes me feel better. I started looking into it but couldn't figure out how much the concrete affected things. I have a strong desire to know what it is costing to heat the room. I decided to wire in a 240v Hobbs hour meter into the heater circuit so I can do a bit of math and dial the temperature up to what I can reasonably afford. Sure wish they made a 240v version of the Kill-A-Watt. Wes |
Semi On Topic: Heating my shop
In article ,
Wes wrote: Sure wish they made a 240v version of the Kill-A-Watt. So do I, but I also wish the kill-a-watt had a capacitor to tide it over small power outages. It forgets everything for the least little glitch that doesn't even show up on a clock. Still, amazing bang for the buck - but an hour-meter or customer watt-hour meter (not too hard to come by) is probably actually better than a forgetful kill-a-watt for totaling. -- Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by |
Semi On Topic: Heating my shop
On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 18:49:56 -0400, Wes
wrote: Sure wish they made a 240v version of the Kill-A-Watt. I suspect an "adaptor" cord wired so one leg of the 240v ran through the Kill-A-Watt would work. Just double the reading it comes up with. At least that is what I would do/explore if I really needed to use it for 240v (shrug). -- Leon Fisk Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b Remove no.spam for email |
Semi On Topic: Heating my shop
On Tue, 20 Oct 2009 14:13:25 -0400, Leon Fisk
wrote: On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 18:49:56 -0400, Wes wrote: Sure wish they made a 240v version of the Kill-A-Watt. I suspect an "adaptor" cord wired so one leg of the 240v ran through the Kill-A-Watt would work. Just double the reading it comes up with. At least that is what I would do/explore if I really needed to use it for 240v (shrug). I would want to be reassured that the Kill-A-Watt could carry the current, say ~40A in the case of a kitchen range. Gerry :-)} London, Canada |
Semi On Topic: Heating my shop
Leon Fisk wrote:
On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 18:49:56 -0400, Wes wrote: Sure wish they made a 240v version of the Kill-A-Watt. I suspect an "adaptor" cord wired so one leg of the 240v ran through the Kill-A-Watt would work. Just double the reading it comes up with. At least that is what I would do/explore if I really needed to use it for 240v (shrug). You are absolutely correct. The Hobbs hour meter, given that I'm using a relay switched line thermostat, will give answers with only a bit of pencil or spreadsheet pushing. Now for something really wierd, uncle made a table lamp with a utility meter, to make it spin twice as fast, he ran the 120v in one leg and then in the other leg. Wes |
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