Even though I've been a NRA member longer than I can remember, there's
no way I'd let my eight year old grandson fire a fully automatic weapon
"for fun".

It's just plain nuts....And in the state I live in too.

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5h...Oxj2wD9439PRO0

Jeff
--
Jeffry Wisnia
(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
The speed of light is 1.8*10^12 furlongs per fortnight.

On 2008-10-29, Jeff Wisnia wrote:

Even though I've been a NRA member longer than I can remember, there's
no way I'd let my eight year old grandson fire a fully automatic weapon
"for fun".

It's just plain nuts....And in the state I live in too.

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5h...Oxj2wD9439PRO0

A very stupid way to die.

I would let my 7 year old fire a rifle with only one round in it.

Though, as a matter of fact I know that he would not enjoy it due to
noise and recoil.
--
Due to extreme spam originating from Google Groups, and their inattention
to spammers, I and many others block all articles originating
from Google Groups. If you want your postings to be seen by
more readers you will need to find a different means of
posting on Usenet.
http://improve-usenet.org/

Ignoramus32330 wrote:

On 2008-10-29, Jeff Wisnia wrote:

Even though I've been a NRA member longer than I can remember, there's
no way I'd let my eight year old grandson fire a fully automatic weapon
"for fun".

It's just plain nuts....And in the state I live in too.

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5h...Oxj2wD9439PRO0

A very stupid way to die.

I would let my 7 year old fire a rifle with only one round in it.

Though, as a matter of fact I know that he would not enjoy it due to
noise and recoil.

I was discussing this incident with a friend the other day and we made a
few observations.

The first observation was that this was an Uzzi, a relatively heavy 9mm
SMG so the idea that the recoil caused it to fly back is questionable.

Second is that the instructor should have had the kid try firing a few
shots in semi-auto mode first to see if he could handle it, a mode where
the gun would not keep firing if the kid panicked and kept squeezing the
trigger.

The third observation is that the instructor should have had his hand on
the gun when the kid first tried firing it in full auto mode.

The fourth observation was that at a shoot like this the younger kids
should be limited to .22 caliber where recoil isn't going to be an
issue. I believe .22 conversion kits are available for many SMGs so they
could fire the same guns with a more tame load.

The fifth observation is that this incident occurred in Massachusetts,
one of the most anti-gun states.

Pete C. wrote:

Ignoramus32330 wrote:

On 2008-10-29, Jeff Wisnia wrote:

Even though I've been a NRA member longer than I can remember, there's
no way I'd let my eight year old grandson fire a fully automatic weapon
"for fun".

It's just plain nuts....And in the state I live in too.

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5h...Oxj2wD9439PRO0

A very stupid way to die.

I would let my 7 year old fire a rifle with only one round in it.

Though, as a matter of fact I know that he would not enjoy it due to
noise and recoil.


I was discussing this incident with a friend the other day and we made a
few observations.

The first observation was that this was an Uzzi, a relatively heavy 9mm
SMG so the idea that the recoil caused it to fly back is questionable.

I'm not up on the differences, but one news article I read said that it
was a "Mini-Uzi", considerably smaller than the standard ones. So, maybe
it wasn't as heavy as you thought.


Second is that the instructor should have had the kid try firing a few
shots in semi-auto mode first to see if he could handle it, a mode where
the gun would not keep firing if the kid panicked and kept squeezing the
trigger.

The third observation is that the instructor should have had his hand on
the gun when the kid first tried firing it in full auto mode.

The fourth observation was that at a shoot like this the younger kids
should be limited to .22 caliber where recoil isn't going to be an
issue. I believe .22 conversion kits are available for many SMGs so they
could fire the same guns with a more tame load.

The fifth observation is that this incident occurred in Massachusetts,
one of the most anti-gun states.

Yes, and in 1994 Massachusetts passed laws against the manufacture,
sale, and use of weapons like Uzis by citizens, but they grandfathered
in ones already owned by gun clubs and permitted their use by club
members. So, that was the loophole which led to the kid's death.

Particularly ironic is the fact that the dead kid's father is a doctor
in charge of the emergency medical unit at a hospital.

I've often argued with anti gun advocate aquaintances that while the
number of guns in US households greatly exceeds the number of backyard
swimming pools the annual number of accidental childhood deaths by
firearms is miniscule compared to the number of swimming pool drownings.

That said, I still believe someone needs to be held responsible for that
poor kid's death. Just my .02.

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia
(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
The speed of light is 1.8*10^12 furlongs per fortnight.

Jeff Wisnia wrote:

Pete C. wrote:

Ignoramus32330 wrote:

On 2008-10-29, Jeff Wisnia wrote:

Even though I've been a NRA member longer than I can remember, there's
no way I'd let my eight year old grandson fire a fully automatic weapon
"for fun".

It's just plain nuts....And in the state I live in too.

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5h...Oxj2wD9439PRO0

A very stupid way to die.

I would let my 7 year old fire a rifle with only one round in it.

Though, as a matter of fact I know that he would not enjoy it due to
noise and recoil.


I was discussing this incident with a friend the other day and we made a
few observations.

The first observation was that this was an Uzzi, a relatively heavy 9mm
SMG so the idea that the recoil caused it to fly back is questionable.

I'm not up on the differences, but one news article I read said that it
was a "Mini-Uzi", considerably smaller than the standard ones. So, maybe
it wasn't as heavy as you thought.

I don't know, I haven't fired either, but I have fired a lot of rounds
from my 43oz 9mm auto, and I would expect even a "mini-uzi" would be
heavier than a handgun.



Second is that the instructor should have had the kid try firing a few
shots in semi-auto mode first to see if he could handle it, a mode where
the gun would not keep firing if the kid panicked and kept squeezing the
trigger.

The third observation is that the instructor should have had his hand on
the gun when the kid first tried firing it in full auto mode.

The fourth observation was that at a shoot like this the younger kids
should be limited to .22 caliber where recoil isn't going to be an
issue. I believe .22 conversion kits are available for many SMGs so they
could fire the same guns with a more tame load.

The fifth observation is that this incident occurred in Massachusetts,
one of the most anti-gun states.

Yes, and in 1994 Massachusetts passed laws against the manufacture,
sale, and use of weapons like Uzis by citizens, but they grandfathered
in ones already owned by gun clubs and permitted their use by club
members. So, that was the loophole which led to the kid's death.

Particularly ironic is the fact that the dead kid's father is a doctor
in charge of the emergency medical unit at a hospital.

I've often argued with anti gun advocate aquaintances that while the
number of guns in US households greatly exceeds the number of backyard
swimming pools the annual number of accidental childhood deaths by
firearms is miniscule compared to the number of swimming pool drownings.

That said, I still believe someone needs to be held responsible for that
poor kid's death. Just my .02.

Yes, but who? Given that it's an anti-gun state, I expect the blame will
be placed on the inanimate object and they'll push for more banning. I
expect the negligent parents and instructor will receive nothing but
condolences that the terrible gun killed the kid.

Jeff Wisnia wrote:

Even though I've been a NRA member longer than I can remember, there's
no way I'd let my eight year old grandson fire a fully automatic weapon
"for fun".

It's just plain nuts....And in the state I live in too.

I shot my first fully automatic weapon at 7 or 8. It was a belt fed on a tripod and there
was a soldier right there with me keeping things under control. Whoa baby, that was fun!
It was some event where Army families were invited to see what dad was doing when he was
away.

As to the sad event, I don't think that was so smart. I shot a 1911 at a very early age,
it had one round in it, uncle knew two or more could be scary if something went wrong.

The robot we recently purchased has a teach pendant with a safety switch you have to hold
down. This one has an additional feature that if you clench it hard it will also cause an
e-stop on the robot. Some let go in crisis, some clench.

Sounds like the kid clenched on the trigger. Not an unexpected response. I'd like to
know why the instructor didn't 1) say, too young, 2) been almost on top of the kid until
he knew how the kid responded. I have no idea of kids physical attributes.

To balance this, some kid likely died that weekend on a dirtbike or atv or a parent didn't
put a seat belt on him. Guns will get more press though.

Wes

On Oct 29, 3:53*pm, Jeff Wisnia wrote:
Pete C. wrote:
Ignoramus32330 wrote:

On 2008-10-29, Jeff Wisnia wrote:

Even though I've been a NRA member longer than I can remember, there's
no way I'd let my eight year old grandson fire a fully automatic weapon
"for fun".

It's just plain nuts....And in the state I live in too.

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5h...Oxj2wD9439PRO0

A very stupid way to die.

I would let my 7 year old fire a rifle with only one round in it.

Though, as a matter of fact I know that he would not enjoy it due to
noise and recoil.

I was discussing this incident with a friend the other day and we made a
few observations.

The first observation was that this was an Uzzi, a relatively heavy 9mm
SMG so the idea that the recoil caused it to fly back is questionable.

I'm not up on the differences, but one news article I read said that it
was a "Mini-Uzi", considerably smaller than the standard ones. So, maybe
it wasn't as heavy as you thought.







Second is that the instructor should have had the kid try firing a few
shots in semi-auto mode first to see if he could handle it, a mode where
the gun would not keep firing if the kid panicked and kept squeezing the
trigger.

The third observation is that the instructor should have had his hand on
the gun when the kid first tried firing it in full auto mode.

The fourth observation was that at a shoot like this the younger kids
should be limited to .22 caliber where recoil isn't going to be an
issue. I believe .22 conversion kits are available for many SMGs so they
could fire the same guns with a more tame load.

The fifth observation is that this incident occurred in Massachusetts,
one of the most anti-gun states.

Yes, and in 1994 Massachusetts passed laws against the manufacture,
sale, and use of weapons like Uzis by citizens, but they grandfathered
in ones already owned by gun clubs and permitted their use by club
members. So, that was the loophole which led to the kid's death.

Particularly ironic is the fact that the dead kid's father is a doctor
in charge of the emergency medical unit at a hospital.

I've often argued with anti gun advocate aquaintances that while the
number of guns in US households greatly exceeds the number of backyard
swimming pools the annual number of accidental childhood deaths by
firearms is miniscule compared to the number of swimming pool drownings.

That said, I still believe someone needs to be held responsible for that
poor kid's death. Just my .02.

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia
(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
The speed of light is 1.8*10^12 furlongs per fortnight.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

According to this article the weapon was a “micro Uzi” SMG:
http://www.boston.com/news/local/art...at_g un_show/
According to this site it is a 9 mm 3.3 lb gun with an open bolt
blowback recoil design:
http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg17-e.htm
Open-bolt blowback recoil guns presumably compromise accuracy (and
control):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uzi_submachine_gun

"Pete C." wrote in message
ster.com...

I don't know, I haven't fired either, but I have fired a lot of rounds
from my 43oz 9mm auto, and I would expect even a "mini-uzi" would be
heavier than a handgun.

I fired my first automatic weapon at the age of 8 - fortunately with blanks.
Circumstances are irrelevant.
I fired an automatic for the second time just a few years ago - a 9mm Uzi.
I am shall we say sizeable and strong. Yet I had difficulty keeping tight
groups in the auto mode with bursts of more than 4 rounds. Thus I am not
surprised that and 8 year old could not control the recoil.

I am surprised at a emergency physician letting this happen to his son while
(I am told) taking photos.

Guns do not kill people. Idiots do.

--
Michael Koblic,
Campbell River, BC

On Wed, 29 Oct 2008 15:59:44 -0400, the infamous Jeff Wisnia
scrawled the following:


Even though I've been a NRA member longer than I can remember, there's
no way I'd let my eight year old grandson fire a fully automatic weapon
"for fun".

It's just plain nuts....And in the state I live in too.

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5h...Oxj2wD9439PRO0

Both the instructor and father are fidiots. Around here, _everyone_
shooting a full-auto weapon has an instructor _directly_ behind them,
ready to take over in case they lose it during the machine gun shoots.

I think teaching the child to shoot is an extremely good thing for a
parent to do, but I'm not sure a full-auto is the way to go at that
young age. In any case full attention is needed over the student at
all times. Both of those guys screwed the pooch royally and a kid is
dead because of it. C'est la vie, c'est la morte.

I accidentally put a round into the dirt between Dad and me when I was
10. He had a fully loaded mag in the Colt Woodsman .22 and after I
shot it once, I let it drop toward the tround with my finger still on
the trigger. Dad had forgotten to remind me and I almost perfed our
feet. I sure learned that lesson in a hurry and I've never repeated
it. We were luckier than the kid in the article.

--
Change is the process by which the future invades our lives.
-- Alvin Toffler

On Wed, 29 Oct 2008 16:02:46 -0500, the infamous "Pete C."
scrawled the following:

Jeff Wisnia wrote:
That said, I still believe someone needs to be held responsible for that
poor kid's death. Just my .02.

Yes, but who? Given that it's an anti-gun state, I expect the blame will
be placed on the inanimate object and they'll push for more banning. I
expect the negligent parents and instructor will receive nothing but
condolences that the terrible gun killed the kid.

Yeah, and those are the 2 things which should NEVER be done. sigh

If there was an instructor right there, he should have been
responsible since the kid's dad had his mind on the camera.

--
Change is the process by which the future invades our lives.
-- Alvin Toffler

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 29 Oct 2008 16:02:46 -0500, the infamous "Pete C."
scrawled the following:

Jeff Wisnia wrote:
That said, I still believe someone needs to be held responsible for that
poor kid's death. Just my .02.

Yes, but who? Given that it's an anti-gun state, I expect the blame will
be placed on the inanimate object and they'll push for more banning. I
expect the negligent parents and instructor will receive nothing but
condolences that the terrible gun killed the kid.

Yeah, and those are the 2 things which should NEVER be done. sigh

If there was an instructor right there, he should have been
responsible since the kid's dad had his mind on the camera.

--
Change is the process by which the future invades our lives.
-- Alvin Toffler

"Instructor" my ass! This doesn't pass the reasonability test. Of course,
now it's a political issue rather than a stupidity issue.

"Buerste" wrote in message
...

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 29 Oct 2008 16:02:46 -0500, the infamous "Pete C."
scrawled the following:

Jeff Wisnia wrote:
That said, I still believe someone needs to be held responsible for
that
poor kid's death. Just my .02.

Yes, but who? Given that it's an anti-gun state, I expect the blame will
be placed on the inanimate object and they'll push for more banning. I
expect the negligent parents and instructor will receive nothing but
condolences that the terrible gun killed the kid.

Yeah, and those are the 2 things which should NEVER be done. sigh

If there was an instructor right there, he should have been
responsible since the kid's dad had his mind on the camera.

--
Change is the process by which the future invades our lives.
-- Alvin Toffler

"Instructor" my ass! This doesn't pass the reasonability test. Of
course, now it's a political issue rather than a stupidity issue.

It's neither one. It's a dead kid issue.

--
Ed Huntress

"Jeff Wisnia" wrote in message
tions...

Even though I've been a NRA member longer than I can remember, there's no
way I'd let my eight year old grandson fire a fully automatic weapon "for
fun".

It's just plain nuts....And in the state I live in too.

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5h...Oxj2wD9439PRO0

Jeff
--
Jeffry Wisnia
(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
The speed of light is 1.8*10^12 furlongs per fortnight.

What is it with these idiots? I see ATVs that are DESIGNED for children.
They are limited in cubic centimeters displacement, but once they get some
motion going, then can smash you like a grape.

Ask me. July 4th. I crushed a L1 vertebrae so bad I'm now half an inch
shorter. It has ended my ATV days and snow skiing.

Giving THAT gun to a child was a negligent act. My son shot a 12 ga. at 8
years old. He was with me on a quail hunting trip, and asked. It was one
shot, and only one shell was in the gun. He did good. I asked him if he
wanted a second shot, and he declined. Both him and my daughter were
allowed to shoot guns at an early age, and both never had the curiosity of a
taboo gun. They were familiar with what they would do.

I see people giving their kids high powered cars and motorcycles, and then
scratching their nuts when they go into a telephone pole, and say, "What did
I do wrong?"

Age inappropriate are the keywords.

Steve

"Jeff Wisnia" wrote

I'm not up on the differences, but one news article I read said that it
was a "Mini-Uzi", considerably smaller than the standard ones. So, maybe
it wasn't as heavy as you thought.

Facts show that it came up and shot him in the head. Arguing nitpicking
points about guns is mental masturbation when the results are observed.

And I'm not talking about you, Jeff. Just those who wail, "This is
impossible, and couldn't have happened."

It did.

Steve

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

"Buerste" wrote in message
...

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 29 Oct 2008 16:02:46 -0500, the infamous "Pete C."
scrawled the following:

Jeff Wisnia wrote:
That said, I still believe someone needs to be held responsible for
that
poor kid's death. Just my .02.

Yes, but who? Given that it's an anti-gun state, I expect the blame will
be placed on the inanimate object and they'll push for more banning. I
expect the negligent parents and instructor will receive nothing but
condolences that the terrible gun killed the kid.

Yeah, and those are the 2 things which should NEVER be done. sigh

If there was an instructor right there, he should have been
responsible since the kid's dad had his mind on the camera.

--
Change is the process by which the future invades our lives.
-- Alvin Toffler

"Instructor" my ass! This doesn't pass the reasonability test. Of
course, now it's a political issue rather than a stupidity issue.

It's neither one. It's a dead kid issue.

--
Ed Huntress


Kids don't have accumulated wisdom so it's up to adults to keep them alive
to pay my social Security. Anybody that doesn't die of old age or disease
dies of somebody's stupidity.

SteveB wrote:

"Jeff Wisnia" wrote


I'm not up on the differences, but one news article I read said that it
was a "Mini-Uzi", considerably smaller than the standard ones. So, maybe
it wasn't as heavy as you thought.


Facts show that it came up and shot him in the head. Arguing nitpicking
points about guns is mental masturbation when the results are observed.

And I'm not talking about you, Jeff. Just those who wail, "This is
impossible, and couldn't have happened."

It did.

Steve



I'm now thinking that it's lucky that the kid didn't flail around when
he lost control. That might have caused 9mm slugs to plow into some
innocents nearby.

According to this news report, things weren't exactly well controlled at
that "Sportsman's Club".

http://tinyurl.com/5q7ps2

And the club's website is down now....

http://www.westfieldsportsman.com/

Jeff







--
Jeffry Wisnia
(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
The speed of light is 1.8*10^12 furlongs per fortnight.

Man, I guess some people "just don't get it" and likely never will....
This tragedy was Completely 100% avoidable!

When are people going to realize that the 'deadly toys' that they
choose to play with, like that of a fully automatic weapon is for
killing 'people' and not used for sport. Definitely something that
should NEVER be introduced to a kid. There's a reason these things
are Grandfathered for Christ Sakes !

Kids and guns don't MIX no matter what their age is.... Introducing a
Child to a gun and certainly a fully automatic ANYTHING is 'just
wrong' and any parent who let's them do it is a F---ING IDIOT ! I
doubt very much anyone would want to be in this parents shoes....
This guy has to live with his sons blood on his hands for the rest of
his life and so should he.....

There is no reason one needs to introduce a dangerous weapon (even if
it's a .22) to any kid at such a young age. 14 would be a better age
for the LEGAL introduction of a REAL gun for sport or hunting purposes
and until then, MAYBE a small pellet gun would suffice for the Die-
Hards who JUST have to arm their children with something !


/Jman....

On Wed, 29 Oct 2008 23:09:40 -0400, the infamous "Buerste"
scrawled the following:


"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 29 Oct 2008 16:02:46 -0500, the infamous "Pete C."
scrawled the following:

Jeff Wisnia wrote:
That said, I still believe someone needs to be held responsible for that
poor kid's death. Just my .02.

Yes, but who? Given that it's an anti-gun state, I expect the blame will
be placed on the inanimate object and they'll push for more banning. I
expect the negligent parents and instructor will receive nothing but
condolences that the terrible gun killed the kid.

Yeah, and those are the 2 things which should NEVER be done. sigh

If there was an instructor right there, he should have been
responsible since the kid's dad had his mind on the camera.

--
Change is the process by which the future invades our lives.
-- Alvin Toffler

"Instructor" my ass! This doesn't pass the reasonability test. Of course,
now it's a political issue rather than a stupidity issue.

Yeah. bigger sigh

Oh, more good news: Alan Gura, Heller's attorney, is suing D.C. for
the legal costs of forcing the Supreme Court decision on the 2nd
Amendment. That's only fair, right?

--
Change is the process by which the future invades our lives.
-- Alvin Toffler

"Jman" wrote in message
...
Man, I guess some people "just don't get it" and likely never will....
This tragedy was Completely 100% avoidable!

Yes, it was.


When are people going to realize that the 'deadly toys' that they
choose to play with, like that of a fully automatic weapon is for
killing 'people' and not used for sport.

Except by people who like to use them for sport. The same is true for a .45
autoloader pistol.

Definitely something that
should NEVER be introduced to a kid.

Kids shouldn't be shooting full-auto firearms.

There's a reason these things
are Grandfathered for Christ Sakes !

The reason is that they met too much political resistance when they tried to
outlaw them. There are on the order of 100,000 registered, fully automatic
firearms in civilian hands in the US. Considering their value and what one
has to go through to get one, the number is not likely to decline
noticeably.


Kids and guns don't MIX no matter what their age is....

I was shooting semiautomatic M1 carbines on a Police Athletic
League-sponsored Junior DCM team when I was 13. At that point I had been
shooting for three years and had five sharpshooter bars, and a BSA
Marksmanship Merit Badge.

Without knowing where you live or grew up, it's hard to know what's shaped
your attitude. Where I grew up, practically all kids were shooting by the
time they were 12 or 13. We had no troublesome incidents. We were
well-taught, in the Boy Scouts, in the PAL, and by our parents. Handling
guns in that rural, traditional area (NE Pennsylvania) was a right of
passage, like religious confirmation. If you never experienced it you'd find
that there was a strong, community-wide expectation that kids who passed
into it were expected to acquire a new level of maturity and responsibility.
As I look back on it, it was pretty remarkable, compared to the way kids are
brought up today.

Introducing a
Child to a gun and certainly a fully automatic ANYTHING is 'just
wrong' and any parent who let's them do it is a F---ING IDIOT !

Fully automatic guns are not for kids. Neither are semis, in my opinion.

I doubt very much anyone would want to be in this parents shoes....
This guy has to live with his sons blood on his hands for the rest of
his life and so should he.....

Yup. He was an idiot.


There is no reason one needs to introduce a dangerous weapon (even if
it's a .22) to any kid at such a young age. 14 would be a better age
for the LEGAL introduction of a REAL gun for sport or hunting purposes

Eleven is fine for most kids, if they're under strict supervision, as we
were.

and until then, MAYBE a small pellet gun would suffice for the Die-
Hards who JUST have to arm their children with something !

Pellet guns are a mixed blessing. The big problem with them is that it's
easy for kids (and for adults, as you've just demonstrated) to dismiss their
seriousness. I wasn't allowed to have an air rifle until I'd had a .22 for
two years, and a shotgun for one. The same was true for several of my
friends. They're just too likely to be treated as toys by very young kids.
If it goes "bang," it's easier to impress a kid with the seriousness of the
whole thing.

--
Ed Huntress

On Oct 30, 10:22*am, "Ed Huntress" wrote:
"Jman" wrote in message

...

Man, I guess some people "just don't get it" and likely never will....
This tragedy was Completely 100% avoidable!

Yes, it was.



When are people going to realize that the 'deadly toys' that they
choose to play with, like that of a fully automatic weapon is for
killing 'people' and not used for sport.

Except by people who like to use them for sport. The same is true for a .45
autoloader pistol.

*Definitely something that
should NEVER be introduced to a kid.

Kids shouldn't be shooting full-auto firearms.

*There's a reason these things
are Grandfathered for Christ Sakes !

The reason is that they met too much political resistance when they tried to
outlaw them. There are on the order of 100,000 registered, fully automatic
firearms in civilian hands in the US. Considering their value and what one
has to go through to get one, the number is not likely to decline
noticeably.


Grandfathered weapons here in Canada are "Destroyed" once 'that' owner
dies.
The gun must be submitted within 3 months of the death.


Kids and guns don't MIX no matter what their age is....

I was shooting semiautomatic M1 carbines on a Police Athletic
League-sponsored Junior DCM team when I was 13. At that point I had been
shooting for three years and had five sharpshooter bars, and a BSA
Marksmanship Merit Badge.

Well, any military, Cadets (Canada) has and DOES in fact introduce
weapons to kids after ages 12 / 14 but I still don't agree with that
sentiment in this day and age...

Without knowing where you live or grew up, it's hard to know what's shaped
your attitude. Where I grew up, practically all kids were shooting by the
time they were 12 or 13. We had no troublesome incidents. We were
well-taught, in the Boy Scouts, in the PAL, and by our parents. Handling
guns in that rural, traditional area (NE Pennsylvania) was a right of
passage, like religious confirmation. If you never experienced it you'd find
that there was a strong, community-wide expectation that kids who passed
into it were expected to acquire a new level of maturity and responsibility.
As I look back on it, it was pretty remarkable, compared to the way kids are
brought up today.

Yeah, I grew up around guns since I was a very small boy in Northern
Ontario and Quebec. My stupid father let me shoot an M-16 when I was
just 5 years old and he had pretty much every weapon imaginable. Our
entire basement was FILLED with everything from derringer's to machine
guns. He was proud of his "GUNS" and had them under glass on red
crush velvet surrounded by GIANT OAK frames for everyone to see....
Fortunately they were always locked too...

Things were far simpler back then and the attitude was much different
than it is now. Guns didn't kill people where I came from (at least
very few anyway...) but things have changed dramatically over the last
20 years or so...

Introducing a
Child to a gun and certainly a fully automatic ANYTHING is 'just
wrong' and any parent who let's them do it is a F---ING IDIOT !

Fully automatic guns are not for kids. Neither are semis, in my opinion.

*I doubt very much anyone would want to be in this parents shoes....
This guy has to live with his sons blood on his hands for the rest of
his life and so should he.....

Yup. He was an idiot.



There is no reason one needs to introduce a dangerous weapon (even if
it's a .22) to any kid at such a young age. *14 would be a better age
for the LEGAL introduction of a REAL gun for sport or hunting purposes

Eleven is fine for most kids, if they're under strict supervision, as we
were.

The maturity level of kids these days isn't the same. There is
'incredible' peer pressure at schools and the environment at the
"home" is a lot different that it was when we were kids. Kids get a
way with waaaay more than I ever did and it's my belief that their
level of Maturity is just not sufficient....

and until then, MAYBE a small pellet gun would suffice for the Die-
Hards who JUST have to arm their children with something !

Pellet guns are a mixed blessing. The big problem with them is that it's
easy for kids (and for adults, as you've just demonstrated) to dismiss their
seriousness. I wasn't allowed to have an air rifle until I'd had a .22 for
two years, and a shotgun for one. The same was true for several of my
friends. They're just too likely to be treated as toys by very young kids..
If it goes "bang," it's easier to impress a kid with the seriousness of the
whole thing.

Yeah that I just don't understand that... Why go backwards when you
already have the real thing ? Unless you were shooting a competition
Air Rifle there wouldn't be much interest. Having a Pellet gun was
ALWAYS the 'passage' to the REAL thing in my family and everyone else
that I knew as well.... If you couldn't be responsible enough to
handle the Pellet gun with care and safety, there was NO WAY you were
going to get your .22 or your .410 !
A good example of this was one of my cousins who just 'didn't get it'
and was always messing around and never paying proper attention to
what he was doing. He finally really screwed up and shot our other
cousin in the hand with his pellet gun. Now if he had started out
with a .22 or a .410 instead of a Pellet Gun, the result would have
been FAR, FAR worse, especially if the impact point were someplace
other than in the hand....

--
Ed Huntress

On Wed, 29 Oct 2008 19:41:39 -0800, "SteveB" toquerville@zionvistas
wrote:


"Jeff Wisnia" wrote in message
tions...

Even though I've been a NRA member longer than I can remember, there's no
way I'd let my eight year old grandson fire a fully automatic weapon "for
fun".

It's just plain nuts....And in the state I live in too.

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5h...Oxj2wD9439PRO0

Jeff
--
Jeffry Wisnia
(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
The speed of light is 1.8*10^12 furlongs per fortnight.

What is it with these idiots? I see ATVs that are DESIGNED for children.
They are limited in cubic centimeters displacement, but once they get some
motion going, then can smash you like a grape.

Ask me. July 4th. I crushed a L1 vertebrae so bad I'm now half an inch
shorter. It has ended my ATV days and snow skiing.

Giving THAT gun to a child was a negligent act. My son shot a 12 ga. at 8
years old. He was with me on a quail hunting trip, and asked. It was one
shot, and only one shell was in the gun. He did good. I asked him if he
wanted a second shot, and he declined. Both him and my daughter were
allowed to shoot guns at an early age, and both never had the curiosity of a
taboo gun. They were familiar with what they would do.

I see people giving their kids high powered cars and motorcycles, and then
scratching their nuts when they go into a telephone pole, and say, "What did
I do wrong?"

Age inappropriate are the keywords.

Steve


Not to get into it much, but this may give you some to chew on. Take a
nap with a 8 year old in the house and get carted off to jail cause
they got hurt for/from a million reasons. Wide awake adults paying
with guns and kids, they have to do more investigation...

One would think the law makers would go over the laws and get them
into perspective. Kind of like murder get 2 years, conspire to make a
drug deal and get almost life.

"Buerste" wrote:

Anybody that doesn't die of old age or disease
dies of somebody's stupidity.

Standing out in a field, you get hit in the head by a meteorite, which
was it?
old age, disease or stupidity?

jk

Larry Jaques wrote:

Oh, more good news: Alan Gura, Heller's attorney, is suing D.C. for
the legal costs of forcing the Supreme Court decision on the 2nd
Amendment. That's only fair, right?

Damn fair and it should come out of the DC Politicians pay and holdings.

Wes
--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller

On Thu, 30 Oct 2008 21:27:56 -0700, the infamous jk
scrawled the following:

"Buerste" wrote:

Anybody that doesn't die of old age or disease
dies of somebody's stupidity.

Standing out in a field, you get hit in the head by a meteorite, which
was it?
old age, disease or stupidity?

There may be a 4th possibility: Guiness Book odd luck.

Well, unless you chalk it up to stupidity. Why wait there while this
screaming, flaming, _smoking_ missile comes straight at you out of the
sky with you looking up at it, huh? Step aside next time, eh?

--
Everything I did in my life that was worthwhile I caught hell for.
-- Earl Warren

On Fri, 31 Oct 2008 05:37:15 -0400, the infamous Wes
scrawled the following:

Larry Jaques wrote:

Oh, more good news: Alan Gura, Heller's attorney, is suing D.C. for
the legal costs of forcing the Supreme Court decision on the 2nd
Amendment. That's only fair, right?

Damn fair and it should come out of the DC Politicians pay and holdings.

Yeah, no pay for that absolute asshole (and Democrat, or is that
redundant?) Mayor Fenty for the rest of his term.

D.C., the place which gave us Mayor Marion Barry, coke fiend.

--
Everything I did in my life that was worthwhile I caught hell for.
-- Earl Warren

jk wrote:
"Buerste" wrote:


Anybody that doesn't die of old age or disease
dies of somebody's stupidity.


Standing out in a field, you get hit in the head by a meteorite, which
was it?
old age, disease or stupidity?

jk

STUPIDITY. Should have been wearing a hard hat. :-)
...lew...

Larry Jaques wrote:

Larry Jaques wrote:

Oh, more good news: Alan Gura, Heller's attorney, is suing D.C. for
the legal costs of forcing the Supreme Court decision on the 2nd
Amendment. That's only fair, right?

Damn fair and it should come out of the DC Politicians pay and holdings.

Yeah, no pay for that absolute asshole (and Democrat, or is that
redundant?) Mayor Fenty for the rest of his term.

D.C., the place which gave us Mayor Marion Barry, coke fiend.


DC is an example of what we will have when the Pelosi, Reid, Obama forces have control of
everything. DC is the preview. Take note those that believe in freedom. Vote tactically,
even if you puke afterwards. I'll be eating light Tuesday, no tomato products either.

Wes

--

I'll have respect for the law when the law has respect for me.

"Ignoramus32330" wrote in message
...
On 2008-10-29, Jeff Wisnia wrote:

Even though I've been a NRA member longer than I can remember, there's
no way I'd let my eight year old grandson fire a fully automatic weapon
"for fun".

It's just plain nuts....And in the state I live in too.

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5h...Oxj2wD9439PRO0

A very stupid way to die.

I would let my 7 year old fire a rifle with only one round in it.

Though, as a matter of fact I know that he would not enjoy it due to
noise and recoil.
--


I loaded one round into my 1911 Colt and handed it to my missus. She is a
little gal, 5'2", 100 pounds, so I knew the gun was a bit much for her. She
has fired a .22 rifle, but no hand guns. One round, told her to hold on
tight,and squeeze the trigger. She popped off the round and handed it back
and said that was enough!!
No way I would have given her the gun with a full clip!
Greg

"Jman" wrote in message
...
Man, I guess some people "just don't get it" and likely never will....
This tragedy was Completely 100% avoidable!

When are people going to realize that the 'deadly toys' that they
choose to play with, like that of a fully automatic weapon is for
killing 'people' and not used for sport. Definitely something that
should NEVER be introduced to a kid. There's a reason these things
are Grandfathered for Christ Sakes !

Kids and guns don't MIX no matter what their age is.... Introducing a
Child to a gun and certainly a fully automatic ANYTHING is 'just
wrong' and any parent who let's them do it is a F---ING IDIOT ! I
doubt very much anyone would want to be in this parents shoes....
This guy has to live with his sons blood on his hands for the rest of
his life and so should he.....



I disagree, on the age to introduce gun usage. I learned to shoot when I was
around 8 years old. I had a pellet gun for the first summer, then graduated
next year to anything my pop had in the gun cabinet. By the time I was 10
years old I was shooting my dad's .270 and a 12 gauge shotgun, plus the .22.
I even got to shoot my dad's 1911 Colt by that time. We were taught about
guns and safety, and the dangers. We also had many acres of woods to go
tromping around in, to practice.
Educate the child well, and let him see the results of firing a gun.
Greg

Greg O wrote:

"Ignoramus32330" wrote in message
...
On 2008-10-29, Jeff Wisnia wrote:

Even though I've been a NRA member longer than I can remember, there's
no way I'd let my eight year old grandson fire a fully automatic weapon
"for fun".

It's just plain nuts....And in the state I live in too.

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5h...Oxj2wD9439PRO0

A very stupid way to die.

I would let my 7 year old fire a rifle with only one round in it.

Though, as a matter of fact I know that he would not enjoy it due to
noise and recoil.
--


I loaded one round into my 1911 Colt and handed it to my missus. She is a
little gal, 5'2", 100 pounds, so I knew the gun was a bit much for her. She
has fired a .22 rifle, but no hand guns. One round, told her to hold on
tight,and squeeze the trigger. She popped off the round and handed it back
and said that was enough!!
No way I would have given her the gun with a full clip!
Greg

Yes, my mother likes my .22 target pistol, but the 9mm is a bit much for
her.

Wes wrote:

DC is an example of what we will have when the Pelosi, Reid, Obama forces have control of
everything. DC is the preview.

By that logic, all the US became texas after Bushco and his republicans
took all three branches... But it didn't because America does not move
that far or that fast.

If we have to get one party in charge of all three branches, I'll put my
faith in Democrats since they tend not to walk in lock-step like the
recent republicans have.

On Thu, 30 Oct 2008 08:54:49 -0700 (PDT), Jman
wrote:

There is no reason one needs to introduce a dangerous weapon (even if
it's a .22) to any kid at such a young age. 14 would be a better age
for the LEGAL introduction of a REAL gun for sport or hunting purposes
and until then, MAYBE a small pellet gun would suffice for the Die-
Hards who JUST have to arm their children with something !


At age 10, I had my own .410 shotgun and by 12 I had graduated
to a 12 bore double barreled Purdey, unfortunately since destroyed in
a house fire.