Awl--

My latest discovery:

It is possible to have a shop that is *too cold* in August! And with
consequences....
Prior to actually having too-cold of a shop in August, I wouldna thought
either possible!

But first, a vig-net.

So ahm throwin the bull off line with one of the fairly-regular regulars
here, and natcherly we're bragging about our respective shops.
'Course, his is makin money, and mine is sending me to the poorhouse.
Nevertheless, I'm crowing, somewhat along the lines of broked-ness, about my
70 F shop on 95 F 100% humidity days--with buckets and buckets and buckets
of condensate to proudly show for it.

So he tells me, Yeah, I keep *my* shop at 69 F....
Yeah, yeah, yeah, right, I mumble.

So I get an email from him with an attachment, with some cryptic enticement.
Lo and behold is an image of his thermostat/thermometer, reading.... 69 F!!
One of them coffee-on-the-monitor moments. wow....

OK, so his is indeed bigger than mine...

But it did get me thinking, apropos of some other comments in hvac-related
threads, that indeed, apart from cost and it being a little too chilly,
that too cold also predisposes condensate on metal, even with considerable
moisture being taken out of the air.
Dew point, and all that.
I started seeing rust where I wouldn't have expected to see it, with an A/C
going 24/7.

So I was sort of checkmated into the following mildly inneresting scenario:

I now have the A/C set at about 78 F, which I figger me and the cats can
live with, as long as it's dry.
But at *77* deg, it can still get pretty muggy, as the A/C won't be running.

So what to do?

Run the dehumidifier, of course.
But which throws out boucou heat--great in the winter, problematic in the
summer.
Unless you have the A/C running, as well.

So now, as my electric meter is reflecting, I got *both* on!

Altho I haven't witnessed this yet, I imagine there is some kind of duet
going on among the two, as one is set on temp, and the other on humidity:
Both, one, the other, or neither can be running, altho recently it's
been just the dehumidifier that runs constantly.

So my g-d electric bill from these two units is likely dwarfing the bill
from the rest of the shop, altho the ratio among A/C, lites, and machines
will certainly vary depending how the shop is being used.
Lighting is no small item either, easily the equivalent of a cupla
fair-sized heaters running throughout the day--which can greatly add to the
A/C load.

But this seems to be the only way to go, if humidity *and* temperature are
to be addressed simultaneously *and* independently.

Now about the cash flow problem...
--
------
Mr. P.V.'d (formerly Droll Troll), Yonkers, NY

Stop Corruption in Congress & Send the Ultimate Message:
Absolutely Vote, but NOT for a Democrat or a Republican.
Ending Corruption in Congress is the *Single Best Way*
to Materially Improve Your Family's Life.
The Solution is so simple--and inexpensive!

entropic3.14decay at optonline2.718 dot net; remove pi and e to reply--ie,
all d'numbuhs

"Proctologically Violated©®" wrote in
message ...

Altho I haven't witnessed this yet, I imagine there is some kind of duet
going on among the two, as one is set on temp, and the other on humidity:
Both, one, the other, or neither can be running, altho recently it's
been just the dehumidifier that runs constantly.

So my g-d electric bill from these two units is likely dwarfing the bill
from the rest of the shop, altho the ratio among A/C, lites, and machines
will certainly vary depending how the shop is being used.
Lighting is no small item either, easily the equivalent of a cupla
fair-sized heaters running throughout the day--which can greatly add to
the A/C load.

But this seems to be the only way to go, if humidity *and* temperature are
to be addressed simultaneously *and* independently.

Proper dehumdification with an AC unit hinges critically on the size of the
unit vs. the required size -- i.e. heat gain of the structure.

An AC system dehumidifies effectively only when it runs long enough to
condense the moisture. An oversized unit will not run with a high enough
duty cycle to do the job. If undersized, of course, it runs too much. Peak
periods with a properly sized unit will probably see the AC on about 70% of
the time.

The dew point in a properly conditioned area will always be well below the
air temperature, so it's not a worry. However, equipment near a frequently
used entrance or leaky window may condense.

Most shops down hear in the Sayouth keep their air fairly warm, but nicely
dry. At 78F, you still feel comfortably cool if the RH in the room is low
enough, and the air is kept moving.

BTW... fans in a shop are a good idea. Especially if you're on a slab, the
relative humidity will be higher in some zones than others. Keeping the air
moving helps the AC remove the moisture evenly.

LLoyd

"Proctologically Violated©®"
wrote in :

Keep in mind that the "standard" temperature for measurements is 68°F.
Course, if your tightest tolerance is +/-0.02" then the temp won't matter
too much if you run to the center of tolerance. If you do any tight
tolerance work though, you'll need to do a temperature correllation and
adjustment based on the actual shop temperature and material being used.



--
Anthony

You can't 'idiot proof' anything....every time you try, they just make
better idiots.

Remove sp to reply via email

On Aug 6, 7:27 am, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
wrote:
"Proctologically Violated©®" wrote in
...



Altho I haven't witnessed this yet, I imagine there is some kind of duet
going on among the two, as one is set on temp, and the other on humidity:
Both, one, the other, or neither can be running, altho recently it's
been just the dehumidifier that runs constantly.

So my g-d electric bill from these two units is likely dwarfing the bill
from the rest of the shop, altho the ratio among A/C, lites, and machines
will certainly vary depending how the shop is being used.
Lighting is no small item either, easily the equivalent of a cupla
fair-sized heaters running throughout the day--which can greatly add to
the A/C load.

But this seems to be the only way to go, if humidity *and* temperature are
to be addressed simultaneously *and* independently.

Proper dehumdification with an AC unit hinges critically on the size of the
unit vs. the required size -- i.e. heat gain of the structure.

An AC system dehumidifies effectively only when it runs long enough to
condense the moisture. An oversized unit will not run with a high enough
duty cycle to do the job. If undersized, of course, it runs too much. Peak
periods with a properly sized unit will probably see the AC on about 70% of
the time.

The dew point in a properly conditioned area will always be well below the
air temperature, so it's not a worry. However, equipment near a frequently
used entrance or leaky window may condense.

Most shops down hear in the Sayouth keep their air fairly warm, but nicely
dry. At 78F, you still feel comfortably cool if the RH in the room is low
enough, and the air is kept moving.

BTW... fans in a shop are a good idea. Especially if you're on a slab, the
relative humidity will be higher in some zones than others. Keeping the air
moving helps the AC remove the moisture evenly.

LLoyd

So what should the temperature and humidity be in a shop?

How about in the house?

TMT

"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
oups.com...

So what should the temperature and humidity be in a shop?

How about in the house?


Whatever is comfortable for you, and with the dewpoint well below the temp.
It's really a matter of personal preferance.

I keep mine at about 78F with an RH of around 60%.

LLoyd

On Aug 6, 12:54 pm, "Proctologically Violated©®"
wrote:
Awl--


Lighting is no small item either, easily the equivalent of a cupla
fair-sized heaters running throughout the day--which can greatly add to the
A/C load.

Now about the cash flow problem...
--
------
Mr. P.V.'d (formerly Droll Troll), Yonkers, NY

I don't know what kind of lighting you have, but flourescent lights
are a lot more efficient. Even if you have flourescent lights, it
might be worthwhile to switch to T8 lamps.

At this time of the year, you might also be able to find some sales on
high efficiency air conditioners. A relatively small one that would
run nearly continuously ought to let you just run the air conditioner
without running the dehumidifier. Neither of these things will help
your short term cash flow, but will help in the longer run.


Dan

Anthony wrote:

"Proctologically Violated©®"
wrote in :

Keep in mind that the "standard" temperature for measurements is 68°F.
Course, if your tightest tolerance is +/-0.02" then the temp won't matter
too much if you run to the center of tolerance. If you do any tight
tolerance work though, you'll need to do a temperature correllation and
adjustment based on the actual shop temperature and material being used.




The measuring instruments are also calibrated for 68°F. If everything
is the same material as the mikes and you keep your hot little hands off
the metal part of the mikes there wont be too much of a problem.


John

It was stated hereabouts (or mebbe alt.home.repair) and with some authority
that 40% humidity is the lowest you should go, but which is about right, as
well.
Forgot the reasoning, but might have had sumpn to do with static
electricity.
Whatever it was, it sounded good, so I keep the humidifier at 40% and hope
to god the digital readout actually means something.
--
------
Mr. P.V.'d (formerly Droll Troll), Yonkers, NY

Stop Corruption in Congress & Send the Ultimate Message:
Absolutely Vote, but NOT for a Democrat or a Republican.
Ending Corruption in Congress is the *Single Best Way*
to Materially Improve Your Family's Life.
The Solution is so simple--and inexpensive!

entropic3.14decay at optonline2.718 dot net; remove pi and e to reply--ie,
all d'numbuhs

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" wrote in message
...

"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
oups.com...

So what should the temperature and humidity be in a shop?

How about in the house?


Whatever is comfortable for you, and with the dewpoint well below the
temp. It's really a matter of personal preferance.

I keep mine at about 78F with an RH of around 60%.

LLoyd

wrote in message
oups.com...
On Aug 6, 12:54 pm, "Proctologically Violated©®"
wrote:
Awl--


Lighting is no small item either, easily the equivalent of a cupla
fair-sized heaters running throughout the day--which can greatly add to
the
A/C load.

Now about the cash flow problem...
--
------
Mr. P.V.'d (formerly Droll Troll), Yonkers, NY

I don't know what kind of lighting you have, but flourescent lights
are a lot more efficient. Even if you have flourescent lights, it
might be worthwhile to switch to T8 lamps.

========================================

I have both T12 and T8, the T8's accumulating as HD has the 4-footers for
$7.
But they charge over $6 for the g-d bulbs--2 pak. Can get'em for about
$1-$1.50 each at Sam's, iirc, in 10 paks.
Soft/warm whites are much more, tho.

These fixtures as a whole are rated at 2x40 (T12), or 2x32(T8), but I'm
betting the whole thing is closer to 100 W.
Hopefully the lumen output is much greater than the same wattage
incandescant--would be inneresting to know the actual comparison.
========================

At this time of the year, you might also be able to find some sales on
high efficiency air conditioners. A relatively small one that would
run nearly continuously ought to let you just run the air conditioner
without running the dehumidifier. Neither of these things will help
your short term cash flow, but will help in the longer run.
==========================

That's actually an excellent idea. Clearly without heating up the place,
nor cooling it down too much.
However, I am sort of condemned to an Amana portable, which I think only
puts out about 7K, and that's probably optimistic. I think the smallest
window unit, which I couldn't use anyway, would be about 6K.
I believe the Sam's club dehumidifiers, about 600 W, are equiv to about a
4-5K A/C.
But your point, in a bigger shop, seems to be on the money.
AND, you get boucou "free" and perty pure water.

As it is turning out, the shop is cool-er to begin with, and even with the
dehumidifier going, I don't think the A/C kicks in.

I was going to go with a mini-split (esp now that I've got a punched hole
through the 2-foot foundation wall for the amana hose--wow....), but if the
crappy portable is doing the job to excess, imagine what a mini-split would
do!
In fact, I installed the Amana as a sort of trial run, and was very
surprised.

How crappy is the Amana?
So much so, the PC Richards guy was discouraging me from buying it!
No power, he said.
But, so far it hasn't broken (second year, heavy use up until now), and the
chinese quality on these things at least does not have me gnashing my teeth.
And it did the job!
Also, it can spit out the condensate with the hot air, if you choose.
Really pretty neat, AND I think this increases efficiency, somewhat.
--
------
Mr. P.V.'d (formerly Droll Troll), Yonkers, NY

Stop Corruption in Congress & Send the Ultimate Message:
Absolutely Vote, but NOT for a Democrat or a Republican.
Ending Corruption in Congress is the *Single Best Way*
to Materially Improve Your Family's Life.
The Solution is so simple--and inexpensive!

entropic3.14decay at optonline2.718 dot net; remove pi and e to reply--ie,
all d'numbuhs



Dan

Anthony wrote:

Keep in mind that the "standard" temperature for measurements is 68°F.
Course, if your tightest tolerance is +/-0.02" then the temp won't matter
too much if you run to the center of tolerance. If you do any tight
tolerance work though, you'll need to do a temperature correllation and
adjustment based on the actual shop temperature and material being used.

Anthony:

I was doing some 132" long aluminum aircraft seat mounting rails for
Boeing about 10 years ago. Our shop air conditioning temp. is normally
set to 78 degrees. The parts had lots of holes (whose location was + or
- .005 from one end), and other misc. features. They were done in a
Fadal with 40" X travel with both end door removed, and they were
advanced by putting one of the prior drilled & endmill bored holes on a
fixture pin. Any length errors would probably accumulate.
The bottom line was that I looked in Machinery's Handbook for the
coefficient of linear expansion for 6061 and adjusted my geometry and
toolpaths by the amount for 10 degrees difference. (I remember it being
something like 1/2 a thou for every 4 or 5 inches or something - I could
be off though it's pretty fuzzy after all this time). I did a test
piece and sent it to be checked with the subcontractor's CMM, and it
came back OK, so we did the whole run. We warmed the machine up and ran
the coolant till it was close to the 78 degree shop temp. before running
parts.

--
BottleBob
http://home.earthlink.net/~bottlbob

Was that 10 F difference for the 68 to 78 degree difference?

It seems to me that you would have to account for expansion differences only
if the machining was done at a temperature different than that for the
*intended use of the part*.
--
------
Mr. P.V.'d (formerly Droll Troll), Yonkers, NY

Stop Corruption in Congress & Send the Ultimate Message:
Absolutely Vote, but NOT for a Democrat or a Republican.
Ending Corruption in Congress is the *Single Best Way*
to Materially Improve Your Family's Life.
The Solution is so simple--and inexpensive!

entropic3.14decay at optonline2.718 dot net; remove pi and e to reply--ie,
all d'numbuhs

"BottleBob" wrote in message
...


Anthony wrote:

Keep in mind that the "standard" temperature for measurements is 68°F.
Course, if your tightest tolerance is +/-0.02" then the temp won't matter
too much if you run to the center of tolerance. If you do any tight
tolerance work though, you'll need to do a temperature correllation and
adjustment based on the actual shop temperature and material being used.

Anthony:

I was doing some 132" long aluminum aircraft seat mounting rails for
Boeing about 10 years ago. Our shop air conditioning temp. is normally
set to 78 degrees. The parts had lots of holes (whose location was + or
- .005 from one end), and other misc. features. They were done in a
Fadal with 40" X travel with both end door removed, and they were
advanced by putting one of the prior drilled & endmill bored holes on a
fixture pin. Any length errors would probably accumulate.
The bottom line was that I looked in Machinery's Handbook for the
coefficient of linear expansion for 6061 and adjusted my geometry and
toolpaths by the amount for 10 degrees difference. (I remember it being
something like 1/2 a thou for every 4 or 5 inches or something - I could
be off though it's pretty fuzzy after all this time). I did a test
piece and sent it to be checked with the subcontractor's CMM, and it
came back OK, so we did the whole run. We warmed the machine up and ran
the coolant till it was close to the 78 degree shop temp. before running
parts.

--
BottleBob
http://home.earthlink.net/~bottlbob

Oh, I get it:
They proly spec'd it at 68 deg and were then going to inspect it at 68 deg.
Then the ultimate usage/temperature part is *their* problem.
Which makes sense. g
--
------
Mr. P.V.'d (formerly Droll Troll), Yonkers, NY

Stop Corruption in Congress & Send the Ultimate Message:
Absolutely Vote, but NOT for a Democrat or a Republican.
Ending Corruption in Congress is the *Single Best Way*
to Materially Improve Your Family's Life.
The Solution is so simple--and inexpensive!

entropic3.14decay at optonline2.718 dot net; remove pi and e to reply--ie,
all d'numbuhs

"Proctologically Violated©®" wrote in
message ...
Was that 10 F difference for the 68 to 78 degree difference?

It seems to me that you would have to account for expansion differences
only if the machining was done at a temperature different than that for
the *intended use of the part*.
--
------
Mr. P.V.'d (formerly Droll Troll), Yonkers, NY

Stop Corruption in Congress & Send the Ultimate Message:
Absolutely Vote, but NOT for a Democrat or a Republican.
Ending Corruption in Congress is the *Single Best Way*
to Materially Improve Your Family's Life.
The Solution is so simple--and inexpensive!

entropic3.14decay at optonline2.718 dot net; remove pi and e to reply--ie,
all d'numbuhs

"BottleBob" wrote in message
...


Anthony wrote:

Keep in mind that the "standard" temperature for measurements is 68°F.
Course, if your tightest tolerance is +/-0.02" then the temp won't
matter
too much if you run to the center of tolerance. If you do any tight
tolerance work though, you'll need to do a temperature correllation and
adjustment based on the actual shop temperature and material being used.

Anthony:

I was doing some 132" long aluminum aircraft seat mounting rails for
Boeing about 10 years ago. Our shop air conditioning temp. is normally
set to 78 degrees. The parts had lots of holes (whose location was + or
- .005 from one end), and other misc. features. They were done in a
Fadal with 40" X travel with both end door removed, and they were
advanced by putting one of the prior drilled & endmill bored holes on a
fixture pin. Any length errors would probably accumulate.
The bottom line was that I looked in Machinery's Handbook for the
coefficient of linear expansion for 6061 and adjusted my geometry and
toolpaths by the amount for 10 degrees difference. (I remember it being
something like 1/2 a thou for every 4 or 5 inches or something - I could
be off though it's pretty fuzzy after all this time). I did a test
piece and sent it to be checked with the subcontractor's CMM, and it
came back OK, so we did the whole run. We warmed the machine up and ran
the coolant till it was close to the 78 degree shop temp. before running
parts.

--
BottleBob
http://home.earthlink.net/~bottlbob

Proctologically Violated©® wrote:
Oh, I get it:
They proly spec'd it at 68 deg and were then going to inspect it at
68 deg. Then the ultimate usage/temperature part is *their* problem.
Which makes sense. g


The idea, of course, is that you inspect all of the mating parts in an
assembly at a specific temperature.
Differences in coefficients of expansion aside - something that does have to
be accounted for in many cases - the parts will be at the same temp. at
assembly. I'm sure you have heard of "Standard Temerrature and Pressure" in
your wanderings G



--
John R. Carroll

www.machiningsolution.com

"J Carroll" wrote in message
. net...
Proctologically Violated©® wrote:
Oh, I get it:
They proly spec'd it at 68 deg and were then going to inspect it at
68 deg. Then the ultimate usage/temperature part is *their* problem.
Which makes sense. g


The idea, of course, is that you inspect all of the mating parts in an
assembly at a specific temperature.
Differences in coefficients of expansion aside - something that does have
to
be accounted for in many cases - the parts will be at the same temp. at
assembly. I'm sure you have heard of "Standard Temerrature and Pressure"
in
your wanderings G

Hey, PV = nRT'n'****. (T in deg Kelvin)
About the only practical use I ever made out of that goddamm formula is to
figger out that yer tires' psi increase by about 10% at road speed. On the
order of 3-4 psi.
And, I proly got DAT wrong....
Never did get around to actually *checking* it empirically!
Would be interesting to see what the diffs actually are in winter and
summer.

Also, there are all kinds of g-d coefficients of expansion: volume, linear,
cupla others.

Man, if I had to account for g-d expansion in my ****, I'd go into an
epileptic fit.
--
------
Mr. P.V.'d (formerly Droll Troll), Yonkers, NY

Stop Corruption in Congress & Send the Ultimate Message:
Absolutely Vote, but NOT for a Democrat or a Republican.
Ending Corruption in Congress is the *Single Best Way*
to Materially Improve Your Family's Life.
The Solution is so simple--and inexpensive!

entropic3.14decay at optonline2.718 dot net; remove pi and e to reply--ie,
all d'numbuhs






--
John R. Carroll

www.machiningsolution.com

Proctologically Violated©® wrote:
"J Carroll" wrote in message
. net...
Proctologically Violated©® wrote:
Oh, I get it:
They proly spec'd it at 68 deg and were then going to inspect it at
68 deg. Then the ultimate usage/temperature part is *their* problem.
Which makes sense. g


The idea, of course, is that you inspect all of the mating parts in
an assembly at a specific temperature.
Differences in coefficients of expansion aside - something that does
have to
be accounted for in many cases - the parts will be at the same
temp. at assembly. I'm sure you have heard of "Standard Temerrature
and Pressure" in
your wanderings G

Hey, PV = nRT'n'****. (T in deg Kelvin)
About the only practical use I ever made out of that goddamm formula
is to figger out that yer tires' psi increase by about 10% at road
speed. On the order of 3-4 psi.
And, I proly got DAT wrong....
Never did get around to actually *checking* it empirically!
Would be interesting to see what the diffs actually are in winter and
summer.

Also, there are all kinds of g-d coefficients of expansion: volume,
linear, cupla others.

Man, if I had to account for g-d expansion in my ****, I'd go into an
epileptic fit.

As opposed to your normal state? How would we be able to tell the
difference?
LOL


J

"BottleBob" wrote in message ...


Anthony wrote:

Keep in mind that the "standard" temperature for measurements is 68°F.
Course, if your tightest tolerance is +/-0.02" then the temp won't matter
too much if you run to the center of tolerance. If you do any tight
tolerance work though, you'll need to do a temperature correllation and
adjustment based on the actual shop temperature and material being used.

Anthony:

I was doing some 132" long aluminum aircraft seat mounting rails for
Boeing about 10 years ago. Our shop air conditioning temp. is normally
set to 78 degrees. The parts had lots of holes (whose location was + or
- .005 from one end), and other misc. features. They were done in a
Fadal with 40" X travel with both end door removed, and they were
advanced by putting one of the prior drilled & endmill bored holes on a
fixture pin. Any length errors would probably accumulate.
The bottom line was that I looked in Machinery's Handbook for the
coefficient of linear expansion for 6061 and adjusted my geometry and
toolpaths by the amount for 10 degrees difference. (I remember it being
something like 1/2 a thou for every 4 or 5 inches or something - I could
be off though it's pretty fuzzy after all this time). I did a test
piece and sent it to be checked with the subcontractor's CMM, and it
came back OK, so we did the whole run. We warmed the machine up and ran
the coolant till it was close to the 78 degree shop temp. before running
parts.


Put the aluminum into a freezer for 24 hours before you machine it.

John

"John Scheldroup" wrote in message et...

"BottleBob" wrote in message ...


Anthony wrote:

Keep in mind that the "standard" temperature for measurements is 68°F.
Course, if your tightest tolerance is +/-0.02" then the temp won't matter
too much if you run to the center of tolerance. If you do any tight
tolerance work though, you'll need to do a temperature correllation and
adjustment based on the actual shop temperature and material being used.

Anthony:

I was doing some 132" long aluminum aircraft seat mounting rails for
Boeing about 10 years ago. Our shop air conditioning temp. is normally
set to 78 degrees. The parts had lots of holes (whose location was + or
- .005 from one end), and other misc. features. They were done in a
Fadal with 40" X travel with both end door removed, and they were
advanced by putting one of the prior drilled & endmill bored holes on a
fixture pin. Any length errors would probably accumulate.
The bottom line was that I looked in Machinery's Handbook for the
coefficient of linear expansion for 6061 and adjusted my geometry and
toolpaths by the amount for 10 degrees difference. (I remember it being
something like 1/2 a thou for every 4 or 5 inches or something - I could
be off though it's pretty fuzzy after all this time). I did a test
piece and sent it to be checked with the subcontractor's CMM, and it
came back OK, so we did the whole run. We warmed the machine up and ran
the coolant till it was close to the 78 degree shop temp. before running
parts.


Put the aluminum into a freezer for 24 hours before you machine it.


Woops I missed something, run it dry no coolant.

John

"John Scheldroup" wrote in message et...

"John Scheldroup" wrote in message et...

"BottleBob" wrote in message ...


Anthony wrote:

Keep in mind that the "standard" temperature for measurements is 68°F.
Course, if your tightest tolerance is +/-0.02" then the temp won't matter
too much if you run to the center of tolerance. If you do any tight
tolerance work though, you'll need to do a temperature correllation and
adjustment based on the actual shop temperature and material being used.

Anthony:

I was doing some 132" long aluminum aircraft seat mounting rails for
Boeing about 10 years ago. Our shop air conditioning temp. is normally
set to 78 degrees. The parts had lots of holes (whose location was + or
- .005 from one end), and other misc. features. They were done in a
Fadal with 40" X travel with both end door removed, and they were
advanced by putting one of the prior drilled & endmill bored holes on a
fixture pin. Any length errors would probably accumulate.
The bottom line was that I looked in Machinery's Handbook for the
coefficient of linear expansion for 6061 and adjusted my geometry and
toolpaths by the amount for 10 degrees difference. (I remember it being
something like 1/2 a thou for every 4 or 5 inches or something - I could
be off though it's pretty fuzzy after all this time). I did a test
piece and sent it to be checked with the subcontractor's CMM, and it
came back OK, so we did the whole run. We warmed the machine up and ran
the coolant till it was close to the 78 degree shop temp. before running
parts.


Put the aluminum into a freezer for 24 hours before you machine it.


Woops I missed something, run it dry no coolant.


Guminess is due static cohesion, so you might need electricity to cause
that. What happens here, that aluminum gums up is something similar
to induction between two molecules, the valence exchanges one electron
with to its neighbor, however, aluminum always has one floating around
that's why it attracts another from its neighbor so it doesn't know the
difference between neighbor and itself, so what you get is a strong
non-conductive static bind which can cause gum build-up.

John

"Proctologically Violated©®" wrote in
message ...
Awl--

My latest discovery:

It is possible to have a shop that is *too cold* in August! And with
consequences....
Prior to actually having too-cold of a shop in August, I wouldna thought
either possible!


snip

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychrometrics

--

"Proctologically Violated©®" wrote:

Oh, I get it:
They proly spec'd it at 68 deg and were then going to inspect it at 68 deg.
Then the ultimate usage/temperature part is *their* problem.
Which makes sense. g

PV:

68 degrees F (20 C), has been the standard temperature for measuring
industrial parts since the 1930's. Here is a site for a little article
(well actually fairly long), on the history of the choice of 68 F (20 C)
for measuring manufactured parts.

================================================== ===================
http://emtoolbox.nist.gov/Publicatio...2007-112-1.pdf

While most dimensional metrologists know that the reference temperature
for dimensional measurements is 20 °C, very few know how or why that
temperature was chosen. Many people have thought it was, in some sense,
arbitrary. In actuality, the decision was the result of 20 years of
thought, discussion, and negotiations that resulted in the International
Committee for Weights and Measures (CIPM) unanimous adoption of 20 °C as
the reference temperature on April 15, 1931.
================================================== ===================

--
BottleBob
http://home.earthlink.net/~bottlbob

Proctologically Violated©® wrote:
Awl--

My latest discovery:

It is possible to have a shop that is *too cold* in August! And with
consequences....
Prior to actually having too-cold of a shop in August, I wouldna
thought either possible!

But first, a vig-net.

So ahm throwin the bull off line with one of the fairly-regular
regulars here, and natcherly we're bragging about our respective
shops. 'Course, his is makin money, and mine is sending me to the
poorhouse. Nevertheless, I'm crowing, somewhat along the lines of
broked-ness, about my 70 F shop on 95 F 100% humidity days--with
buckets and buckets and buckets of condensate to proudly show for it.

So he tells me, Yeah, I keep *my* shop at 69 F....
Yeah, yeah, yeah, right, I mumble.

So I get an email from him with an attachment, with some cryptic
enticement. Lo and behold is an image of his thermostat/thermometer,
reading.... 69 F!! One of them coffee-on-the-monitor moments. wow....
OK, so his is indeed bigger than mine...

But it did get me thinking, apropos of some other comments in
hvac-related threads, that indeed, apart from cost and it being a
little too chilly, that too cold also predisposes condensate on
metal, even with considerable moisture being taken out of the air.
Dew point, and all that.
I started seeing rust where I wouldn't have expected to see it, with
an A/C going 24/7.

So I was sort of checkmated into the following mildly inneresting
scenario:
I now have the A/C set at about 78 F, which I figger me and the cats
can live with, as long as it's dry.
But at *77* deg, it can still get pretty muggy, as the A/C won't be
running.
So what to do?

Run the dehumidifier, of course.
But which throws out boucou heat--great in the winter, problematic in
the summer.
Unless you have the A/C running, as well.

So now, as my electric meter is reflecting, I got *both* on!

Altho I haven't witnessed this yet, I imagine there is some kind of
duet going on among the two, as one is set on temp, and the other on
humidity: Both, one, the other, or neither can be running, altho
recently it's been just the dehumidifier that runs constantly.

So my g-d electric bill from these two units is likely dwarfing the
bill from the rest of the shop, altho the ratio among A/C, lites, and
machines will certainly vary depending how the shop is being used.
Lighting is no small item either, easily the equivalent of a cupla
fair-sized heaters running throughout the day--which can greatly add
to the A/C load.

But this seems to be the only way to go, if humidity *and*
temperature are to be addressed simultaneously *and* independently.

Now about the cash flow problem...

I find that my 8,000 btu unit keeps my shed/shop (8X12) at 75 degrees and
the humidity runs at around 50-70% RH (got a hygrometer out there ...) . I
only run it evenings and weekends , but have had no problems with rust ...
and the energy bill isn't all that bad . I suspect the lathe pulls more .
You do realize that the A/C is taking moisture out of the air too ? That's
the biggest reason I installed mine (yeah , right , I lie about other things
too) .
--

Snag aka OSG #1
'90 Ultra , "Strider"
The road goes on forever ...
none to one to reply

On Aug 6, 6:44 pm, "Proctologically Violated©®"
Hopefully the lumen output is much greater than the same wattage
incandescant--would be inneresting to know the actual comparison.
========================


Mr. P.V.'d (formerly Droll Troll), Yonkers, NY

A 100 watt incandescent is about 1700 lumens. Unless you get a long
life or rough service bulb. Then 100 watts is only 1200 lumens. A 32
watt T8 bulb is 2600 to 2800 lumens.

Dan

On Mon, 06 Aug 2007 15:11:22 -0700, BottleBob wrote:

While most dimensional metrologists know that the reference temperature
for dimensional measurements is 20 °C, very few know how or why that
temperature was chosen. Many people have thought it was, in some sense,
arbitrary. In actuality, the decision was the result of 20 years of
thought, discussion, and negotiations that resulted in the International
Committee for Weights and Measures (CIPM) unanimous adoption of 20 °C as
the reference temperature on April 15, 1931.

None of which explains "how or *why* that temperature was chosen" G.
Just who.
--
Cliff

On Mon, 6 Aug 2007 15:54:56 -0500, "John Scheldroup"
wrote:

Guminess is due static cohesion, so you might need electricity to cause
that. What happens here, that aluminum gums up is something similar
to induction between two molecules, the valence exchanges one electron
with to its neighbor, however, aluminum always has one floating around
that's why it attracts another from its neighbor so it doesn't know the
difference between neighbor and itself, so what you get is a strong
non-conductive static bind which can cause gum build-up.

GAK
Aluminum is an electrical conductor ... and (in the pure form)
it's crystal structure is cubic (face-centered) (ccp).
http://www.webelements.com/webelemen...t/Al/xtal.html
--
Cliff

"Cliff" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 6 Aug 2007 15:54:56 -0500, "John Scheldroup"

wrote:

Guminess is due static cohesion, so you might need electricity to cause
that. What happens here, that aluminum gums up is something similar
to induction between two molecules, the valence exchanges one electron
with to its neighbor, however, aluminum always has one floating around
that's why it attracts another from its neighbor so it doesn't know the
difference between neighbor and itself, so what you get is a strong
non-conductive static bind which can cause gum build-up.

GAK
Aluminum is an electrical conductor ... and (in the pure form)
it's crystal structure is cubic (face-centered) (ccp).
http://www.webelements.com/webelemen...t/Al/xtal.html

But it sounded good!!
I was even going to quote it to sound knowledgeable.

Actually, tho, it does make some chemical sense. Crystal structures do
change without effectively altering the base atom (ergo heat treating,
diamonds, etc), and they do so with subtle shifts in orbital structure, more
like orbital angle changes, rather than true quantum leaps'n'****.
This orbital bending sort of "precedes" the orbital changes you see in true
covalent bonding.... uh, Bottle....
--
------
Mr. P.V.'d (formerly Droll Troll), Yonkers, NY

Stop Corruption in Congress & Send the Ultimate Message:
Absolutely Vote, but NOT for a Democrat or a Republican.
Ending Corruption in Congress is the *Single Best Way*
to Materially Improve Your Family's Life.
The Solution is so simple--and inexpensive!

entropic3.14decay at optonline2.718 dot net; remove pi and e to reply--ie,
all d'numbuhs



--
Cliff

entropic3.14decay at optonline2.718 dot net; remove pi and e to reply--ie,
all d'numbuhs

"Cliff" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 06 Aug 2007 15:11:22 -0700, BottleBob
wrote:

While most dimensional metrologists know that the reference temperature
for dimensional measurements is 20 °C, very few know how or why that
temperature was chosen. Many people have thought it was, in some sense,
arbitrary. In actuality, the decision was the result of 20 years of
thought, discussion, and negotiations that resulted in the International
Committee for Weights and Measures (CIPM) unanimous adoption of 20 °C as
the reference temperature on April 15, 1931.

None of which explains "how or *why* that temperature was chosen" G.
Just who.

Sorta what I thought.
Negotiating temperature? Please, gimme a break. More fukn PhDs tryna
justify dey salary.

Proly 68 F was some sort of mean of all the industrial climates, so's shops
could basically make **** in the open air.
And, I think it's a little above the mean, reflecting the fact that back
then, you didn't have A/C, so you could heat up a shop easier than you could
cool it down.

Or mebbe it reflected an avg of climates where machined stuff was likely to
be used.
Barring cylinder liners, etc.

Musta been a long negotiation.
--
------
Mr. P.V.'d (formerly Droll Troll), Yonkers, NY

Stop Corruption in Congress & Send the Ultimate Message:
Absolutely Vote, but NOT for a Democrat or a Republican.
Ending Corruption in Congress is the *Single Best Way*
to Materially Improve Your Family's Life.
The Solution is so simple--and inexpensive!


--
Cliff

On Aug 7, 12:25 pm, "Proctologically Violated©®"
wrote:
entropic3.14decay at optonline2.718 dot net; remove pi and e to reply--ie,
all d'numbuhs

"Cliff" wrote in message

...

On Mon, 06 Aug 2007 15:11:22 -0700, BottleBob
wrote:

While most dimensional metrologists know that the reference temperature
for dimensional measurements is 20 °C, very few know how or why that
temperature was chosen. Many people have thought it was, in some sense,
arbitrary. In actuality, the decision was the result of 20 years of
thought, discussion, and negotiations that resulted in the International
Committee for Weights and Measures (CIPM) unanimous adoption of 20 °C as
the reference temperature on April 15, 1931.

None of which explains "how or *why* that temperature was chosen" G.
Just who.

Sorta what I thought.
Negotiating temperature? Please, gimme a break. More fukn PhDs tryna
justify dey salary.

Proly 68 F was some sort of mean of all the industrial climates, so's shops
could basically make **** in the open air.
And, I think it's a little above the mean, reflecting the fact that back
then, you didn't have A/C, so you could heat up a shop easier than you could
cool it down.

Or mebbe it reflected an avg of climates where machined stuff was likely to
be used.
Barring cylinder liners, etc.

Musta been a long negotiation.
--
------
Mr. P.V.'d (formerly Droll Troll), Yonkers, NY

Stop Corruption in Congress & Send the Ultimate Message:
Absolutely Vote, but NOT for a Democrat or a Republican.
Ending Corruption in Congress is the *Single Best Way*
to Materially Improve Your Family's Life.
The Solution is so simple--and inexpensive!

--
Cliff

Isnt it 300 kelvin on the nose?

"Proctologically Violated©®" wrote in
message ...
Sorta what I thought.
Negotiating temperature? Please, gimme a break. More fukn PhDs tryna
justify dey salary.

Proly 68 F was some sort of mean of all the industrial climates, so's
shops could basically make **** in the open air.
And, I think it's a little above the mean, reflecting the fact that back
then, you didn't have A/C, so you could heat up a shop easier than you
could cool it down.

I believe it had more to do with maintainable temperatures in an
already-standardized industrial process. For much longer before the
measurements standards were promulgated - way, WAY before 1931 - the
standard temperature for photographic processing was 20C.

Cellars are reasonably easy places to light-proof, and where many darkrooms
exist even today. They run cooler than the superstructures of their
buildings.

LLoyd

Brent wrote:

Isnt it 300 kelvin on the nose?

Brent:

Close but not quite. 68 degrees Fahrenheit = 293.15 kelvin

http://www.onlineconversion.com/temperature.htm

--
BottleBob
http://home.earthlink.net/~bottlbob

"Proctologically Violated©®" wrote:


None of which explains "how or *why* that temperature was chosen" G.
Just who.

Sorta what I thought.

PV:

Did you read the full article?

http://emtoolbox.nist.gov/Publicatio...2007-112-1.pdf


--
BottleBob
http://home.earthlink.net/~bottlbob

"BottleBob" wrote in message
...


"Proctologically Violated©®" wrote:


None of which explains "how or *why* that temperature was chosen" G.
Just who.

Sorta what I thought.

PV:

Did you read the full article?

No, I figgered Cliff read it right, and I then concurred.

Lloyd has it right, I think, and since I was more or less saying what Lloyd
said, iffin yer not disputing him, then you shouldn't be disputing me.
But mebbe it's just reflex...

I mean, really, what else could the logic be?
Pick a temp that's not too expensive to maintain, adjust it by whatever
ergonometrics are appropriate, and bing, you got yer standard.

The argering/negotiating likely comes from the Texans vs. Minnesotians, so
you figgered they split the difference, mebbe weighted for population/number
of machine shops, etc.

Well, mebbe not quite an equal split, since Texans have all those fukn guns.
--
------
Mr. P.V.'d (formerly Droll Troll), Yonkers, NY

Stop Corruption in Congress & Send the Ultimate Message:
Absolutely Vote, but NOT for a Democrat or a Republican.
Ending Corruption in Congress is the *Single Best Way*
to Materially Improve Your Family's Life.
The Solution is so simple--and inexpensive!

entropic3.14decay at optonline2.718 dot net; remove pi and e to reply--ie,
all d'numbuhs



http://emtoolbox.nist.gov/Publicatio...2007-112-1.pdf


--
BottleBob
http://home.earthlink.net/~bottlbob

"Proctologically Violated©®" wrote:

"BottleBob" wrote in message
...


"Proctologically Violated©®" wrote:


None of which explains "how or *why* that temperature was chosen" G.
Just who.

Sorta what I thought.

PV:

Did you read the full article?

No, I figgered Cliff read it right, and I then concurred.

PV:

Heh welll, I'd be REAL careful who you let do your thinking for you.
You don't even know if HE read the whole article. He's stated before
that he has an aversion to PDF files.

Lloyd has it right, I think, and since I was more or less saying what Lloyd
said, iffin yer not disputing him, then you shouldn't be disputing me.
But mebbe it's just reflex...

I don't know Lloyd, but his comments seemed to come from a photographic
processing perspective. But still, Lloyd didn't claim that the article
didn't explain how or why 20C was chosen.


I mean, really, what else could the logic be?

Wouldn't it be more informative to read the article yourself so you
don't have to speculate, or depend on the interpretations of others,
about what was said?

--
BottleBob
http://home.earthlink.net/~bottlbob

"BottleBob" wrote in message
...


"Proctologically Violated©®" wrote:

"BottleBob" wrote in message
...


"Proctologically Violated©®" wrote:


None of which explains "how or *why* that temperature was chosen"
G.
Just who.

Sorta what I thought.

PV:

Did you read the full article?

No, I figgered Cliff read it right, and I then concurred.

PV:

Heh welll, I'd be REAL careful who you let do your thinking for you.
You don't even know if HE read the whole article. He's stated before
that he has an aversion to PDF files.

Lloyd has it right, I think, and since I was more or less saying what
Lloyd
said, iffin yer not disputing him, then you shouldn't be disputing me.
But mebbe it's just reflex...

I don't know Lloyd, but his comments seemed to come from a photographic
processing perspective. But still, Lloyd didn't claim that the article
didn't explain how or why 20C was chosen.


I mean, really, what else could the logic be?

Wouldn't it be more informative to read the article yourself so you
don't have to speculate, or depend on the interpretations of others,
about what was said?

Well, hint hint hint hint
Since YOU read the article, mebbe you could just tell us/me!!!!!

AND,
If you read Lloyd's post *very very carefully*, you'll see he made reference
to "maintainable temperatures".

That WAS the gist of the article, wadnit?
Oh, let me guess, yer gonna make *me* read the article....
sheesh
--
------
Mr. P.V.'d (formerly Droll Troll), Yonkers, NY

Stop Corruption in Congress & Send the Ultimate Message:
Absolutely Vote, but NOT for a Democrat or a Republican.
Ending Corruption in Congress is the *Single Best Way*
to Materially Improve Your Family's Life.
The Solution is so simple--and inexpensive!

entropic3.14decay at optonline2.718 dot net; remove pi and e to reply--ie,
all d'numbuhs



--
BottleBob
http://home.earthlink.net/~bottlbob

On Tue, 7 Aug 2007 16:09:23 -0400, "Proctologically Violated©®"
wrote:

The argering/negotiating likely comes from the Texans vs. Minnesotians, so
you figgered they split the difference, mebbe weighted for population/number
of machine shops, etc.

Well, mebbe not quite an equal split, since Texans have all those fukn guns.

LOL

On Mon, 06 Aug 2007 15:11:22 -0700, BottleBob
wrote:

the decision was the result of 20 years of
thought, discussion, and negotiations that resulted in the International
Committee for Weights and Measures (CIPM) unanimous adoption of 20 °C as
the reference temperature on April 15, 1931.

Easy,

They put seven engineers (like Cliff) on a committee, they argued for
twenty years, six of them died, number six died on April 15, 1931.

Tom

wrote:

On Mon, 06 Aug 2007 15:11:22 -0700, BottleBob
wrote:

the decision was the result of 20 years of
thought, discussion, and negotiations that resulted in the International
Committee for Weights and Measures (CIPM) unanimous adoption of 20 °C as
the reference temperature on April 15, 1931.

Easy,

They put seven engineers (like Cliff) on a committee, they argued for
twenty years, six of them died, number six died on April 15, 1931.


Tom:

Well there ya go. You can always be counted on to drill down to the
bedrock of a matter. At 20C, of course. g

--
BottleBob
http://home.earthlink.net/~bottlbob

wrote:
On Mon, 06 Aug 2007 15:11:22 -0700, BottleBob
wrote:

the decision was the result of 20 years of
thought, discussion, and negotiations that resulted in the
International Committee for Weights and Measures (CIPM) unanimous
adoption of 20 °C as the reference temperature on April 15, 1931.

Easy,

They put seven engineers (like Cliff) on a committee, they argued for
twenty years, six of them died, number six died on April 15, 1931.


LOL
LMAO
ROTFLMAO

and that's a LOT of rollin' and laughin'
G


--
John R. Carroll

www.machiningsolution.com

"Proctologically Violated©®" wrote:


Oh, let me guess, yer gonna make *me* read the article....
sheesh


PV:

No, I'm not going to make you read the article. It was just a bit of
history that I thought would be interesting to those that like that sort
of thing.
The article is long and not of much use in a practical sense. Other
than you realize that inspections are normally done at 68 degrees, and
I'm sure you understand that now.


--
BottleBob
http://home.earthlink.net/~bottlbob

"BottleBob" wrote in message
...


"Proctologically Violated©®" wrote:


Oh, let me guess, yer gonna make *me* read the article....
sheesh


PV:

No, I'm not going to make you read the article. It was just a bit of
history that I thought would be interesting to those that like that sort
of thing.
The article is long and not of much use in a practical sense. Other
than you realize that inspections are normally done at 68 degrees, and
I'm sure you understand that now.

So what WERE the reasons for 68 F??????

Man, my nuts were receding when the shop was 70 F!
'course, in Minnesota, 68 F is a heat wave....
--
------
Mr. P.V.'d (formerly Droll Troll), Yonkers, NY

Stop Corruption in Congress & Send the Ultimate Message:
Absolutely Vote, but NOT for a Democrat or a Republican.
Ending Corruption in Congress is the *Single Best Way*
to Materially Improve Your Family's Life.
The Solution is so simple--and inexpensive!

entropic3.14decay at optonline2.718 dot net; remove pi and e to reply--ie,
all d'numbuhs




--
BottleBob
http://home.earthlink.net/~bottlbob

BottleBob wrote:

"Proctologically Violated©®" wrote:



Oh, let me guess, yer gonna make *me* read the article....
sheesh



PV:

No, I'm not going to make you read the article. It was just a bit of
history that I thought would be interesting to those that like that sort
of thing.
The article is long and not of much use in a practical sense. Other
than you realize that inspections are normally done at 68 degrees, and
I'm sure you understand that now.




How come, then, is the Standard Temp. 59 degrees F or 15 deg. C. ? One
group of Scientists not talking to the other group of engineers?

Or did their dart boards have different numbers on it?



John