On Sun, 14 Mar 2004 12:14:08 -0800, "Lane" lane_nospam@copperaccents_dot_com wrote:
I've already found you a job at the QuikTrip, paying twice what you're
grossing now, and with a medical and dental insurance program. All
you have to do is show up. After the asset sale, your baggage should
be hand carryable.

A job at a convince store pays $52,000 a year? You can't be serious.

It is the store manager job, and yes I am serious. They're building new
QuikTrips as fast as they can put them up, so they're always looking for
people to run them. Even clerks start at better than $10 an hour.

It isn't just service jobs that are booming either. If you can run or repair
construction equipment, or do electrical work, you can write your own
ticket. This is the 3rd fastest growing county in the US, and there is a
chronic labor shortage, despite Mexicans arriving by the truckload.

Gary

On Sun, 14 Mar 2004 22:50:29 GMT, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

"Gunner" wrote in message
.. .

When the society is no longer able to provide the safety and justice it
promises..many indeed simply lay down. Others provide for themselves.

We call the first group "sheeple".
We call the second group "freemen"


So Ed my man...are those who lay down and curl up when society can no
longer provide for them..freemen or sheeple? Hummmmm????

I've never seen anybody lay down and curl up because society can no longer
provide for them. What do freemen do? Beat their chests and yodel while
standing on the bodies?

Ed Huntress

I sure have. The welfare rolls and the bars at 3pm are full of them.

Freemen dont let the grass grow under their feet, they keep on keeping
on. They make the effort to provide for their own defense, and take
care of their families, no matter how unpleasant it is. They dont sit
on their asses bitching and moaning, or expect Society to take care of
them. They dont twist Kennedy's comment around to "what the country
can do for me".

Even from your lofty tower, Im sure you know that type..sheeple,
wanting others to lead them to the field, or to slaughter.

Gunner

"Gun Control, the theory that a 110lb grandmother should
fist fight a 250lb 19yr old criminal"

"Gunner" wrote in message
...

So Ed my man...are those who lay down and curl up when society can no
longer provide for them..freemen or sheeple? Hummmmm????

I've never seen anybody lay down and curl up because society can no
longer
provide for them. What do freemen do? Beat their chests and yodel while
standing on the bodies?

Ed Huntress

I sure have. The welfare rolls and the bars at 3pm are full of them.

Freemen dont let the grass grow under their feet, they keep on keeping
on. They make the effort to provide for their own defense, and take
care of their families, no matter how unpleasant it is. They dont sit
on their asses bitching and moaning, or expect Society to take care of
them. They dont twist Kennedy's comment around to "what the country
can do for me".

Even from your lofty tower, Im sure you know that type..sheeple,
wanting others to lead them to the field, or to slaughter.

I don't know any, but I think I read about them in an Ayn Rand novel. When
you're done with them for political purposes, you can set them out in a
field to scare crows.

Ed Huntress

On Mon, 15 Mar 2004 08:47:56 GMT, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

"Gunner" wrote in message
.. .

So Ed my man...are those who lay down and curl up when society can no
longer provide for them..freemen or sheeple? Hummmmm????

I've never seen anybody lay down and curl up because society can no
longer
provide for them. What do freemen do? Beat their chests and yodel while
standing on the bodies?

Ed Huntress

I sure have. The welfare rolls and the bars at 3pm are full of them.

Freemen dont let the grass grow under their feet, they keep on keeping
on. They make the effort to provide for their own defense, and take
care of their families, no matter how unpleasant it is. They dont sit
on their asses bitching and moaning, or expect Society to take care of
them. They dont twist Kennedy's comment around to "what the country
can do for me".

Even from your lofty tower, Im sure you know that type..sheeple,
wanting others to lead them to the field, or to slaughter.

I don't know any, but I think I read about them in an Ayn Rand novel. When
you're done with them for political purposes, you can set them out in a
field to scare crows.

Ed Huntress

Damn thats a lofty tower you live in. Must be doing the internet thing
by satellite.

Gunner

"Gun Control, the theory that a 110lb grandmother should
fist fight a 250lb 19yr old criminal"

"Gunner" wrote in message
...


Even from your lofty tower, Im sure you know that type..sheeple,
wanting others to lead them to the field, or to slaughter.

I don't know any, but I think I read about them in an Ayn Rand novel.
When
you're done with them for political purposes, you can set them out in a
field to scare crows.

Ed Huntress

Damn thats a lofty tower you live in. Must be doing the internet thing
by satellite.

May be, I don't know where the cable goes.

I don't do strawmen, however. I leave that to people who need to create
enemies where they don't really exist, or an imaginary class of people lower
than themselves so they can pump themselves up with a fine-sounding, and
contrasting, label.

Ed Huntress

"Gunner" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 13 Mar 2004 20:24:41 +1100, "A.Gent"
wrote:
Number of prisoners does not correlate with safety on the streets. Really.
Number of prisoners is a function of community and judicial tolerance of bad
behaviour.
Less tolerance, more prisoners.


More crime = more prisoners. Else you lads tend to incarcerate the
innocent.


See above.
Of course we incarcerate the innocent.
Don't you have lawyers in the US?


Btw..why did the coppers start carrying guns?

Dunno.
I wasn't in on the meeting when they decided.

Shrug.

Presumably to help counter the illegal firearms the bad guys use.


http://www.guncontrolnetwork.org/australia5.htm

(link not working for me. Maybe its censored in Australia! LOL!)

It wouldnt be the first time G

Hehehe
This from the country where one half-exposed breast causes national furore.
Funny priorities.



OK OK OK

Time out.

This thread is getting silly.

Somehow I don't think we're going to change each other's mind.

Here's my proposal:
Let's wait 20 years, and the survivor can go *braa-a-a-ck* nyeah nyeah! to the
other one.
If we're both alive and well, then let's wait another 10 years - and so on.

Deal?

Jeff

"Gary Coffman" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 14 Mar 2004 12:14:08 -0800, "Lane"
lane_nospam@copperaccents_dot_com wrote:
I've already found you a job at the QuikTrip, paying twice what you're
grossing now, and with a medical and dental insurance program. All
you have to do is show up. After the asset sale, your baggage should
be hand carryable.

A job at a convince store pays $52,000 a year? You can't be serious.

It is the store manager job, and yes I am serious. They're building new
QuikTrips as fast as they can put them up, so they're always looking for
people to run them. Even clerks start at better than $10 an hour.

It isn't just service jobs that are booming either. If you can run or
repair
construction equipment, or do electrical work, you can write your own
ticket. This is the 3rd fastest growing county in the US, and there is a
chronic labor shortage, despite Mexicans arriving by the truckload.

Gary

Gary
The point being, that anyone can't just walk into this $52,000 a year job.
From their web page: "Based on job performance, Those holding full time jobs
as Second Assistant Managers are eligible for promotion to First Assistant
and then to Store Manager full time jobs." So, Gunner could not just move
and show up and land this job. Sorry to burst the bubble for you Gunner.

I looked on the QuikTrip web page and yes they are hiring, but I don't see
anywhere near $10/hr given for a starting wage, except for one position;
that of a night time second assistant. Clerks are starting at $7 to $9/hr
depending on if you are full time or part time and by location. Each
location is a different pay scale, with $9/hr the highest one I see. This is
far from $10/hr and not the norm. Gary, you have been deceived. Let's see
$7/hr equals about $14,500/year, less than what Gunner is making now. Yup,
he ought to sell everything and go grab this opportunity.

I find it interesting how people paint such rosy pictures and then when
scrutinized, the picture isn't so rosy. I've been dealing with this a lot in
my job hunting for the last year. I'm told of such and such or go do this,
or you're qualified for that. When these are looked at more carefully or I
go to apply for these jobs, the employers want more experience, or certain
degrees or certificates. With this economy and high unemployment rate they
can be very picky in their hiring. When the I tell the person that told me
about it, they go; "oh really? That can't be right." Then they shrug their
shoulders and change the subject. Yet in their mind, they feel like they've
helped the poor soul who is looking for a job, instead they have just given
him even more frustration in an already frustrating endeavor.

Lane

Hehehe
This from the country where one half-exposed breast causes national
furore.
Funny priorities.



I agree with you there. We've got our priorities all screwed up. Got to save
the children and others from a God given body part, but yet there are a very
large portion of this population that are scare to death to walk downtown
after dark.

Simply insane.......

Lane

On Mon, 15 Mar 2004 07:09:58 -0800, "Lane"
lane_nospam@copperaccents_dot_com wrote:


The point being, that anyone can't just walk into this $52,000 a year job.

Gunner wouldn't last at Apu's job anyway. Too many "perps" coming in
and out all day. I see him as more of a soup natzi. Might not be much
call for those though. :-)

Yup,
he ought to sell everything and go grab this opportunity.

I find it interesting how people paint such rosy pictures and then when
scrutinized, the picture isn't so rosy. I've been dealing with this a lot in
my job hunting for the last year. I'm told of such and such or go do this,
or you're qualified for that. When these are looked at more carefully or I
go to apply for these jobs, the employers want more experience, or certain
degrees or certificates. With this economy and high unemployment rate they
can be very picky in their hiring. When the I tell the person that told me
about it, they go; "oh really? That can't be right." Then they shrug their
shoulders and change the subject. Yet in their mind, they feel like they've
helped the poor soul who is looking for a job, instead they have just given
him even more frustration in an already frustrating endeavor.

There are two sides to that. Many job hunters oversell their abilities
and motivation. A friend with a small business has been through a
string of guys who claim that they're self-starters and have good
skills. Yet most can't calculate the volume of a cube, won't bother to
learn, and can barely put a tool back in the correct slot without
specific instructions from a supervisor. Some can't go a single week
without missing a day or coming in late. For anyone who *is* a
self-starter, it should be easy to stand above the crowd. In the case
at hand, if you knew you were willing and able to run a convenience
store, then the smart thing to do would be to take any job they have
available. You'll be manager soon enough if you're serious about being
willing and able.

In Gunner's case, his technical ability qualifies him for a wide range
of jobs, most any of which would be better than his present situation.
His posts might have sparked some recommendations by now if he didn't
have so many issues. Regardless, if he wanted to make a move he
wouldn't have posted that pseudo resume, the most negative one I've
ever read, made doubly ludicrous by requiring moving expenses.

Wayne

On Mon, 15 Mar 2004 07:09:58 -0800, "Lane"
lane_nospam@copperaccents_dot_com wrote:


"Gary Coffman" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 14 Mar 2004 12:14:08 -0800, "Lane"
lane_nospam@copperaccents_dot_com wrote:
I've already found you a job at the QuikTrip, paying twice what you're
grossing now, and with a medical and dental insurance program. All
you have to do is show up. After the asset sale, your baggage should
be hand carryable.

A job at a convince store pays $52,000 a year? You can't be serious.

It is the store manager job, and yes I am serious. They're building new
QuikTrips as fast as they can put them up, so they're always looking for
people to run them. Even clerks start at better than $10 an hour.

It isn't just service jobs that are booming either. If you can run or
repair
construction equipment, or do electrical work, you can write your own
ticket. This is the 3rd fastest growing county in the US, and there is a
chronic labor shortage, despite Mexicans arriving by the truckload.

Gary

Gary
The point being, that anyone can't just walk into this $52,000 a year job.
From their web page: "Based on job performance, Those holding full time jobs
as Second Assistant Managers are eligible for promotion to First Assistant
and then to Store Manager full time jobs." So, Gunner could not just move
and show up and land this job. Sorry to burst the bubble for you Gunner.


Oh oh.. I think Id better go take down the yard sale signs....
G
I looked on the QuikTrip web page and yes they are hiring, but I don't see
anywhere near $10/hr given for a starting wage, except for one position;
that of a night time second assistant. Clerks are starting at $7 to $9/hr
depending on if you are full time or part time and by location. Each
location is a different pay scale, with $9/hr the highest one I see. This is
far from $10/hr and not the norm. Gary, you have been deceived. Let's see
$7/hr equals about $14,500/year, less than what Gunner is making now. Yup,
he ought to sell everything and go grab this opportunity.

I find it interesting how people paint such rosy pictures and then when
scrutinized, the picture isn't so rosy. I've been dealing with this a lot in
my job hunting for the last year. I'm told of such and such or go do this,
or you're qualified for that. When these are looked at more carefully or I
go to apply for these jobs, the employers want more experience, or certain
degrees or certificates. With this economy and high unemployment rate they
can be very picky in their hiring. When the I tell the person that told me
about it, they go; "oh really? That can't be right." Then they shrug their
shoulders and change the subject. Yet in their mind, they feel like they've
helped the poor soul who is looking for a job, instead they have just given
him even more frustration in an already frustrating endeavor.

Lane

Yup.

Gunner












"Gun Control, the theory that a 110lb grandmother should
fist fight a 250lb 19yr old criminal"

On Tue, 16 Mar 2004 00:19:02 +1100, "A.Gent"
wrote:


"Gunner" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 13 Mar 2004 20:24:41 +1100, "A.Gent"
wrote:
Number of prisoners does not correlate with safety on the streets. Really.
Number of prisoners is a function of community and judicial tolerance of bad
behaviour.
Less tolerance, more prisoners.


More crime = more prisoners. Else you lads tend to incarcerate the
innocent.


See above.
Of course we incarcerate the innocent.
Don't you have lawyers in the US?

Yup, but even then we make a point in trying not to incarcerate the
innocent.


Btw..why did the coppers start carrying guns?

Dunno.
I wasn't in on the meeting when they decided.

Shrug.

Presumably to help counter the illegal firearms the bad guys use.

But guns are illegal in Oz!!!!!!!


http://www.guncontrolnetwork.org/australia5.htm

(link not working for me. Maybe its censored in Australia! LOL!)

It wouldnt be the first time G

Hehehe
This from the country where one half-exposed breast causes national furore.
Funny priorities.

I agree 100% there with you.



OK OK OK

Time out.

This thread is getting silly.

Somehow I don't think we're going to change each other's mind.

Here's my proposal:
Let's wait 20 years, and the survivor can go *braa-a-a-ck* nyeah nyeah! to the
other one.
If we're both alive and well, then let's wait another 10 years - and so on.

Deal?

Jeff

Deal. G

Gunner




"Gun Control, the theory that a 110lb grandmother should
fist fight a 250lb 19yr old criminal"

On Mon, 15 Mar 2004 12:28:18 GMT, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

"Gunner" wrote in message
.. .


Even from your lofty tower, Im sure you know that type..sheeple,
wanting others to lead them to the field, or to slaughter.

I don't know any, but I think I read about them in an Ayn Rand novel.
When
you're done with them for political purposes, you can set them out in a
field to scare crows.

Ed Huntress

Damn thats a lofty tower you live in. Must be doing the internet thing
by satellite.

May be, I don't know where the cable goes.

I don't do strawmen, however. I leave that to people who need to create
enemies where they don't really exist, or an imaginary class of people lower
than themselves so they can pump themselves up with a fine-sounding, and
contrasting, label.

Ed Huntress

Perhap we should ask our resident Welfare office worker Sue about
sheeple and those expecting a handout. But then..those people are all
needy types who have exhausted all possiblities for bettering
themselves before going hat in hand for assistance.

Sue, care to comment?

Gunner


"Gun Control, the theory that a 110lb grandmother should
fist fight a 250lb 19yr old criminal"

On Mon, 15 Mar 2004 12:28:18 GMT, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

"Gunner" wrote in message
.. .


Even from your lofty tower, Im sure you know that type..sheeple,
wanting others to lead them to the field, or to slaughter.

I don't know any, but I think I read about them in an Ayn Rand novel.
When
you're done with them for political purposes, you can set them out in a
field to scare crows.

Ed Huntress

Damn thats a lofty tower you live in. Must be doing the internet thing
by satellite.

May be, I don't know where the cable goes.

I don't do strawmen, however. I leave that to people who need to create
enemies where they don't really exist, or an imaginary class of people lower
than themselves so they can pump themselves up with a fine-sounding, and
contrasting, label.

Ed Huntress

Gee Ed, thats mighty eglitarian of you. Chuckle...laugh laugh laugh

Gunner

"Gun Control, the theory that a 110lb grandmother should
fist fight a 250lb 19yr old criminal"

On Mon, 15 Mar 2004 07:09:58 -0800, "Lane" lane_nospam@copperaccents_dot_com wrote:
"Gary Coffman" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 14 Mar 2004 12:14:08 -0800, "Lane"
lane_nospam@copperaccents_dot_com wrote:
I've already found you a job at the QuikTrip, paying twice what you're
grossing now, and with a medical and dental insurance program. All
you have to do is show up. After the asset sale, your baggage should
be hand carryable.

A job at a convince store pays $52,000 a year? You can't be serious.

It is the store manager job, and yes I am serious. They're building new
QuikTrips as fast as they can put them up, so they're always looking for
people to run them. Even clerks start at better than $10 an hour.

It isn't just service jobs that are booming either. If you can run or
repair
construction equipment, or do electrical work, you can write your own
ticket. This is the 3rd fastest growing county in the US, and there is a
chronic labor shortage, despite Mexicans arriving by the truckload.

Gary

Gary
The point being, that anyone can't just walk into this $52,000 a year job.
From their web page: "Based on job performance, Those holding full time jobs
as Second Assistant Managers are eligible for promotion to First Assistant
and then to Store Manager full time jobs." So, Gunner could not just move
and show up and land this job. Sorry to burst the bubble for you Gunner.

The manager of the Sugarloaf QuikTrip told me that he went from new hire
to store manager in 2 weeks. Apparently they're promoting rather rapidly.

Gary

On Mon, 15 Mar 2004 19:16:40 GMT, Gunner
wrote:

On Mon, 15 Mar 2004 12:28:18 GMT, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

"Gunner" wrote in message
. ..


Even from your lofty tower, Im sure you know that type..sheeple,
wanting others to lead them to the field, or to slaughter.

I don't know any, but I think I read about them in an Ayn Rand novel.
When
you're done with them for political purposes, you can set them out in a
field to scare crows.

Ed Huntress

Damn thats a lofty tower you live in. Must be doing the internet thing
by satellite.

May be, I don't know where the cable goes.

I don't do strawmen, however. I leave that to people who need to create
enemies where they don't really exist, or an imaginary class of people lower
than themselves so they can pump themselves up with a fine-sounding, and
contrasting, label.

Ed Huntress

Perhap we should ask our resident Welfare office worker Sue about
sheeple and those expecting a handout. But then..those people are all
needy types who have exhausted all possiblities for bettering
themselves before going hat in hand for assistance.

Sue, care to comment?

Sigh. I read the go-rounds between you and Ed and after about the 6th
or 8th post the thread seems to expand into a cloud of smoke that
leaves me choking and coughing. I haven't the least idea what you two
are now talking about. You, I think, are comparing welfare recipients
to what you consider to be sheeple? Hmm. Now, about your statement
above about exhausting all possibilities. An awful lot of my clients
haven't even looked at any other possibilities. They have no problem
morally or ethically coming in to us without even a thought of going
to work or school. These, of course, are th lifers. Then there are
the ones who genuinely are embarrassed to be in the welfare office. I
just don't think this is what you mean because I don't really compare
them to sheeple as I think you define the term. Sorry if I let you
down.
I swear, you two must derive at least 1/4 of you internet
entertainment by sparring with each other. Chuckle. I've yet to see
either of you change the others mind. How many years have you been
going at this?
Sue


Gunner


"Gun Control, the theory that a 110lb grandmother should
fist fight a 250lb 19yr old criminal"

On Mon, 15 Mar 2004 18:33:48 GMT, wmbjk
wrote:

On Mon, 15 Mar 2004 07:09:58 -0800, "Lane"
lane_nospam@copperaccents_dot_com wrote:


The point being, that anyone can't just walk into this $52,000 a year job.

Gunner wouldn't last at Apu's job anyway. Too many "perps" coming in
and out all day. I see him as more of a soup natzi. Might not be much
call for those though. :-)

You see lots of things through your biased glasses. I find it
interesting that you can make such sweeping proclamations about my off
net character, skills and personality based solely on your
disagreements with me on the internet. Perhaps I should return the
favor, based on the contents of your posts. Really want me to go
there?
Just out of curiosity..what does it take to be self employed in a
starving industry with plenty of competition for the same work orders?


Yup,
he ought to sell everything and go grab this opportunity.

I find it interesting how people paint such rosy pictures and then when
scrutinized, the picture isn't so rosy. I've been dealing with this a lot in
my job hunting for the last year. I'm told of such and such or go do this,
or you're qualified for that. When these are looked at more carefully or I
go to apply for these jobs, the employers want more experience, or certain
degrees or certificates. With this economy and high unemployment rate they
can be very picky in their hiring. When the I tell the person that told me
about it, they go; "oh really? That can't be right." Then they shrug their
shoulders and change the subject. Yet in their mind, they feel like they've
helped the poor soul who is looking for a job, instead they have just given
him even more frustration in an already frustrating endeavor.

There are two sides to that. Many job hunters oversell their abilities
and motivation. A friend with a small business has been through a
string of guys who claim that they're self-starters and have good
skills. Yet most can't calculate the volume of a cube, won't bother to
learn, and can barely put a tool back in the correct slot without
specific instructions from a supervisor. Some can't go a single week
without missing a day or coming in late. For anyone who *is* a
self-starter, it should be easy to stand above the crowd. In the case
at hand, if you knew you were willing and able to run a convenience
store, then the smart thing to do would be to take any job they have
available. You'll be manager soon enough if you're serious about being
willing and able.

That's how I went from a part timer to manager of a company with 3
offices and 170+ employees, one eagerly scarfed up by a major corp.

In Gunner's case, his technical ability qualifies him for a wide range
of jobs, most any of which would be better than his present situation.
His posts might have sparked some recommendations by now if he didn't
have so many issues. Regardless, if he wanted to make a move he
wouldn't have posted that pseudo resume, the most negative one I've
ever read, made doubly ludicrous by requiring moving expenses.

resume? Which one was that? Ive sent you my official resume? Do I
have your fax number? Snail mail addy? Were you hiring? Which part
mentioned requiring moving expenses from an employer?

Or are you simply blowing smoke out your ass in copious quantities,
yet again?

Gunner



Leftwingers are like pond scum. They are green, slimy, show up where
they are not wanted, and interfere with the fishing.

Strider

On Tue, 16 Mar 2004 08:27:45 GMT, Gunner
wrote:

You see lots of things through your biased glasses. I find it
interesting that you can make such sweeping proclamations about my off
net character, skills and personality based solely on your
disagreements with me on the internet.

?????? Perhaps you didn't get the joke. Regardless, you seem to be
claiming that even though you write thousands of posts per year,
you're surprised that I'd glean any truth from them. Earth to Gunner -
you write about your *life* in great detail. My opinions are based on
that.

Just out of curiosity..what does it take to be self employed in a
starving industry with plenty of competition for the same work orders?

If being self-employed was the same as being successfully
self-employed then we wouldn't be having this discussion.

That's how I went from a part timer to manager of a company with 3
offices and 170+ employees, one eagerly scarfed up by a major corp.

Let me guess.... for one thing you weren't spending as much time on
Usenet during that period?

resume? Which one was that? Ive sent you my official resume? Do I
have your fax number? Snail mail addy? Were you hiring? Which part
mentioned requiring moving expenses from an employer?

I said pseudo resume. You wrote about your background and skills,
listed every negative thing about your life, and challenged a couple
different people to show you a job offer that took into account your
inability to pay for moving expenses. Perhaps I should have called it
a pseudo anti-resume. :-) This group would be a great place to
spread the word that you'd entertain offers. No limitations on what
you can say for instance. Seems like it would be better to talk about
how you'd bust your ass for an employer, rather than focus on what you
*can't* do. Maybe you're on to something though with the alternative
approach.... let us know how it works out.

Or are you simply blowing smoke out your ass in copious quantities,
yet again?

A good example of what *not* to do when networking IMO, bluster away
at a guy who with a single phone call could get you an immediate trial
at a better job. No chance of that obviously, but there might be
others reading the thread who are in the same position. You could try
giving them a reason to want to pick up the phone.

Another thing you might consider - sometimes advice from either your
foils or your best friends is going to be the same. Regular friends
enjoy reading your propaganda, and they'll encourage you to keep it up
even as the Marshall is nailing a legal notice on your door. Your
*best* friends on the other hand will jerk that chair out from under
you and tell you to make some changes.

Wayne

On Tue, 16 Mar 2004 01:15:28 -0500, Gary Coffman
wrote:

The manager of the Sugarloaf QuikTrip told me that he went from new hire
to store manager in 2 weeks. Apparently they're promoting rather rapidly.

And how many hours a week does this "Manager" put in doing
managerial type duties like ordering, billing, payroll - versus
standing behind the counter running the register that an hourly
employee would be doing?

There are a lot of companies who view making someone "management" a
cheap way to get an overtime-exempt slave, where they can saddle you
with 80+ hour weeks as a 'salaried' or 'exempt' employee, including
covering every shift where an employee calls in sick or just doesn't
bother to show up... Beware.

California has busted companies for doing this, but when you have
lawyers on retainer there's always another loophole out there...

-- Bruce --
--
Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop
Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700
5737 Kanan Rd. #359, Agoura CA 91301 (818) 889-9545
Spamtrapped address: Remove the python and the invalid, and use a net.

On Tue, 16 Mar 2004 17:52:43 GMT, Bruce L. Bergman wrote:
On Tue, 16 Mar 2004 01:15:28 -0500, Gary Coffman
wrote:

The manager of the Sugarloaf QuikTrip told me that he went from new hire
to store manager in 2 weeks. Apparently they're promoting rather rapidly.

And how many hours a week does this "Manager" put in doing
managerial type duties like ordering, billing, payroll - versus
standing behind the counter running the register that an hourly
employee would be doing?

He puts in a lot of hours. Managing a convenience store isn't my
idea of a dream job, but it certainly pays better than what Gunner
is doing now.

Gary

On Tue, 16 Mar 2004 17:52:43 GMT, Bruce L. Bergman
wrote:

On Tue, 16 Mar 2004 01:15:28 -0500, Gary Coffman
wrote:

The manager of the Sugarloaf QuikTrip told me that he went from new hire
to store manager in 2 weeks. Apparently they're promoting rather rapidly.

And how many hours a week does this "Manager" put in doing
managerial type duties like ordering, billing, payroll - versus
standing behind the counter running the register that an hourly
employee would be doing?

There are a lot of companies who view making someone "management" a
cheap way to get an overtime-exempt slave, where they can saddle you
with 80+ hour weeks as a 'salaried' or 'exempt' employee, including
covering every shift where an employee calls in sick or just doesn't
bother to show up... Beware.

California has busted companies for doing this, but when you have
lawyers on retainer there's always another loophole out there...

-- Bruce --

Indeed. My last position before getting into the machine tool
industry, was tech services manager of one of the Cincinnati Time
franchises. Time clocks, data collection, access control, fire alarms,
etc etc..I had the C7-C10 he needed.

Things went along swimmingly until one payday I noticed that my 30hrs
OT seemed to be missing from my weekly check..when I politely
inquired..he bluntly told me that as I was "management", he no longer
needed to pay me OT. After a bit of discussion with the little
****ant, I sucked it up and a week later got into the machine tool
business via a customer/friend.

Lots of that sort of examples abound.

Gunner

Leftwingers are like pond scum. They are green, slimy, show up where
they are not wanted, and interfere with the fishing.

Strider

On Tue, 16 Mar 2004 19:45:10 GMT, Gunner wrote:

||On Tue, 16 Mar 2004 17:52:43 GMT, Bruce L. Bergman
wrote:
||
||On Tue, 16 Mar 2004 01:15:28 -0500, Gary Coffman
||wrote:
||
||The manager of the Sugarloaf QuikTrip told me that he went from new hire
||to store manager in 2 weeks. Apparently they're promoting rather rapidly.
||
|| And how many hours a week does this "Manager" put in doing
||managerial type duties like ordering, billing, payroll - versus
||standing behind the counter running the register that an hourly
||employee would be doing?
||
|| There are a lot of companies who view making someone "management" a
||cheap way to get an overtime-exempt slave, where they can saddle you
||with 80+ hour weeks as a 'salaried' or 'exempt' employee, including
||covering every shift where an employee calls in sick or just doesn't
||bother to show up... Beware.
||
|| California has busted companies for doing this, but when you have
||lawyers on retainer there's always another loophole out there...
||
|| -- Bruce --
||
||Indeed. My last position before getting into the machine tool
||industry, was tech services manager of one of the Cincinnati Time
||franchises. Time clocks, data collection, access control, fire alarms,
||etc etc..I had the C7-C10 he needed.
||
||Things went along swimmingly until one payday I noticed that my 30hrs
||OT seemed to be missing from my weekly check..when I politely
||inquired..he bluntly told me that as I was "management", he no longer
||needed to pay me OT. After a bit of discussion with the little
||****ant, I sucked it up and a week later got into the machine tool
||business via a customer/friend.

I understand there is some legislation in the works to close that loophole.
The office left-winger was in here sneering about it. Took me a while to
understand how he was able to make a negative out of it. All i could do was
shake my head.
Rex in Fort Worth

"Rex B" wrote in message
...

||
||Things went along swimmingly until one payday I noticed that my 30hrs
||OT seemed to be missing from my weekly check..when I politely
||inquired..he bluntly told me that as I was "management", he no longer
||needed to pay me OT. After a bit of discussion with the little
||****ant, I sucked it up and a week later got into the machine tool
||business via a customer/friend.

I understand there is some legislation in the works to close that
loophole.
The office left-winger was in here sneering about it. Took me a while to
understand how he was able to make a negative out of it. All i could do
was
shake my head.
Rex in Fort Worth

I think you have your wings on backwards, Rex. The proposed legislation was
a bill that was defeated in the House last year. It was proposed by the Bush
administration and it was supported by Republicans along party lines, with a
few defectors voting against it for defeat, 213 - 210.

What it would have done is to re-classify hourly workers who have "learned
experience" from working at a job. It also would have re-classified anyone
who had any "supervisory" responsibility at all, which included helping to
train a new hand in any way.

If the law had passed, overtime would have been eliminated for millions of
workers, by most estimates.

It isn't likely you're talking about anything going on at the state level,
because federal law overrides it, by way of the Fair Labor Standards Act.

Ed Huntress

On Tue, 16 Mar 2004 17:52:43 GMT, Bruce L. Bergman
wrote:


And how many hours a week does this "Manager" put in doing
managerial type duties like ordering, billing, payroll - versus
standing behind the counter running the register that an hourly
employee would be doing?

There are a lot of companies who view making someone "management" a
cheap way to get an overtime-exempt slave, where they can saddle you
with 80+ hour weeks as a 'salaried' or 'exempt' employee, including
covering every shift where an employee calls in sick or just doesn't
bother to show up... Beware.

California has busted companies for doing this, but when you have
lawyers on retainer there's always another loophole out there...

-- Bruce --

Missed shifts? Naw. Hey, if you're a *good* manager you'll only hire
employees who show up, and have backups on call for when they don't.
:-) Long hours slaving over the books? Sounds like most small
businesses. Think of it this way - apparently with only two weeks
experience, you can find out *exactly* what it's like being the owner
of a small business, except you'll be making more money than most of
them.

BTW, this branch of the thread got started partly because Gunner said
he drives 65k miles to get to work. At 55 mph, that's ~150 8 hour
days a year of LA freeway misery *before* he even starts turning the
wrenches. Not to mention the fuel, vehicle maintenance etc. Tuning up
the slurpee machine on his break would be a piece of cake by
comparison. :-)

Wayne

In article , Rex B says...

||Things went along swimmingly until one payday I noticed that my 30hrs
||OT seemed to be missing from my weekly check..when I politely
||inquired..he bluntly told me that as I was "management", he no longer
||needed to pay me OT. After a bit of discussion with the little
||****ant, I sucked it up and a week later got into the machine tool
||business via a customer/friend.

I understand there is some legislation in the works to close that loophole.
The office left-winger was in here sneering about it. Took me a while to
understand how he was able to make a negative out of it. All i could do was
shake my head.

But gunner is a free market advocate. If his employer wants to
shaft him out of his OT, he votes - with his feet. Which is what
he did.

But at walmart or the like, the rule seems to be that folks get
branded 'managers' and then become exempt from labor laws, ie
they're on salary. Or, they are not exempt and are hourly, then
the store simply makes them work unpaid time as a condition of
retaining the job.

Unionization is one of those things that will prevent abuses like
that, but as I said, gunner is a free-market advocate and would
not choose that solution. I've never heard him complain about
his lost OT during union discussions so he's quite consistent
about this.

Problem is, if *all* the employers use that dodge, then you
cannot 'vote with your feet' any more.

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

On Tue, 16 Mar 2004 22:05:41 GMT, wmbjk
wrote:
On Tue, 16 Mar 2004 17:52:43 GMT, Bruce L. Bergman
wrote:

There are a lot of companies who view making someone "management" a
cheap way to get an overtime-exempt slave, where they can saddle you
with 80+ hour weeks as a 'salaried' or 'exempt' employee, including
covering every shift where an employee calls in sick or just doesn't
bother to show up... Beware.

Missed shifts? Naw. Hey, if you're a *good* manager you'll only hire
employees who show up, and have backups on call for when they don't.
:-) Long hours slaving over the books? Sounds like most small
businesses. Think of it this way - apparently with only two weeks
experience, you can find out *exactly* what it's like being the owner
of a small business, except you'll be making more money than most of
them.

Backup employees on call? Give me a break... I know of one
convenience store manager who caught every employee in the store in
collusion and all systematically stealing from the till, fired the lot
of them - and then couldn't get anyone hired (or borrow employees from
another store) to cover the night shifts. Oops...

He ended up working 24 hours for a week. He had to have the
regional manager come in and cover the store for a shift during the
day so he could go home and get a few hours uninterrupted sleep and a
shower. And all this at a flat salary.

If I EVER get offered a salaried position, working hours are going
to be covered in that contract. I might allow them a little slack for
emergencies, but anything over 40 or 45 hours is going to be paid for,
either in OT or comp time off. Or they can hire me an assistant to
take some the load. Period.

I don't live to work, I work to live. I don't have much of a life
outside of work, but that's a separate problem... :-P

BTW, this branch of the thread got started partly because Gunner said
he drives 65k miles to get to work. At 55 mph, that's ~150 8 hour
days a year of LA freeway misery *before* he even starts turning the
wrenches. Not to mention the fuel, vehicle maintenance etc. Tuning up
the slurpee machine on his break would be a piece of cake by
comparison. :-)

If I was Gunner, I'd fix up a small fully self-contained motorhome &
a compact car Toad for errands, or a pickup and a self-contained
travel trailer. If you are going to be working somewhere for a few
days or weeks, rather than a killer commute to Fresno every night you
drive your house down and stay there. The "per diem" should cover the
gas both ways if you work it right.

Make the clients set aside a small /secured/ place to park, and
provide power & phone hook-ups. Or internet - if the company has a
highspeed T1 or SDSL Net connection you can run 100-baseT out there
and use Vonage for your phone.

As an added bonus, if Gunner can't get his house problems sorted
out, he still has a home - a little one riding on radial tires. ;-)

-- Bruce --
--
Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop
Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700
5737 Kanan Rd. #359, Agoura CA 91301 (818) 889-9545
Spamtrapped address: Remove the python and the invalid, and use a net.

On Wed, 17 Mar 2004 03:30:44 GMT, Bruce L. Bergman
wrote:

If I was Gunner, I'd fix up a small fully self-contained motorhome &
a compact car Toad for errands, or a pickup and a self-contained
travel trailer. If you are going to be working somewhere for a few
days or weeks, rather than a killer commute to Fresno every night you
drive your house down and stay there. The "per diem" should cover the
gas both ways if you work it right.

Make the clients set aside a small /secured/ place to park, and
provide power & phone hook-ups. Or internet - if the company has a
highspeed T1 or SDSL Net connection you can run 100-baseT out there
and use Vonage for your phone.

As an added bonus, if Gunner can't get his house problems sorted
out, he still has a home - a little one riding on radial tires. ;-)


I have a 1978 22' Aljo travel trailer in a park in Ontario. ($350
month) that I work out of during the week. Its within 50 mile radius
of most of my customers in OC and LA. It has a shower, fridge, fax and
internet ($35 for phone and $12 for Bluelight internet). If I have
work, I go down Monday or Tuesday (142 miles each way) from my home in
Taft, and work out of the trailer, then go home Friday night, unless a
customer wants something done over the weekend.

My cell phone is $90 month (Nextel, 600 minutes, free unlimited
incoming) which I have to have as it may take a while for my out of
state customers on a phone support call. At the current gas prices,
last week I spent $85 on fuel, and $30 on food/toilet paper, etc.

Most service calls last 1-3hours, then its on the the next one, or
making cold calls or customer visits. I try to do as many customer
visits over the cell, but I often can get an hours labor out of simply
walking in the door. Might be fixing a machine, a phone system,
unplugging a toilet, etc..bucks is bucks. I charge a different labor
rate for work other than CNC, and depending on customers..some of the
little guys simply cannot pay much, but still need work done. Bucks is
bucks.

Ive been working out of that RV for about 7 yrs now. Bought it for
$800. Its paid for itself several times over. Ive done a number of
jobs in Phoenix, etc, and I generally sleep in my truck on the
customers back lot, to save the cost of a motel. Some times I can get
them to spring for a motel, sometimes not. Shrug.

This week Ive been on the cell making "got work?" calls, and havent
gone to LA, just to save the gas money and wear and tear on my truck,
a 94 Mazda B3000 with 322,000 miles on it (second engine from a
wrecking yard at 294,000). Ive got one little non critical job for a
customer, that wont even pay the gas, and they dont care when I show
(replace a brake on a Hardinge chucker), so Im waiting for a better
service call before going down there. The wife and Daughter in law
have a bunch of medical appointments, so they have been using the
truck. Still havent been able to finish up her 84 Volvo. Its almost
done, but that $235 back registration is holding things up. I sold a
bunch of old machine tools that I had out back a couple weeks ago, so
managed to get mostly caught up to this month on mortgage, power,
water, cell phone etc.
With luck, one of my customers wants me to rebuild 12 OmniTurns, but
he has been promising me that for 4 months. His business is picking
up, but its still not enough to warrant that kind of expenditure. Over
the last 2 yrs, Ive cannibalized them to keep his other ones running,
and they are now going to be mighty pricey to put back to specs.
Servos, ball screws. etc. When Im done, they will be new machines
again..but they are gonna cost him a fair amount of change to do each
one. Shrug. But it will be bucks in my pocket (and out to the
creditors..sigh)

Service work for an independant is feast or famine in this kind of
economy. There have been times where I didnt get a service call for 2
weeks. Nor did anyone else in the biz. Hence my ability at times to
post a lot on the net, and other times Im simply too tired at the end
of the day to even turn on the puter. Shrug.

To make the average service call in Santa Ana..35 miles away..its
usually 1 hour going, and up to 3 hours coming back. Thats if I dont
have to go to Van Nuys, or Dago, or Hemet or Palmdale....

I charge mileage at .40 a mile, portal to portal to/from Ontario, and
travel time at $25 portal to portal. Based on best time..not Sig Alert
time. So if I get a service call in San Marcos, I can pay for the gas
for the week. If its 15 miles away...I make zip. Many weeks I go in
the hole simply going to So.Cal

Move to So. Cal? My mortgage and my RV rent is still less than a 2
bedroom apartment nearly anywhere in So. Cal. I have a reasonably
spacious place in Taft, with the shop, dogs, cats etc etc.,all of
which Ive worked 30 yrs to get and dont wish to dump and start living
out of a dufflebag, in a truck stop at my age. My wife is unable to
work, the kids have the new baby and my wifes son is on SSI, but I
still wind up paying most of their freight.

Not complaining. Shrug..just how things are. I keep hoping that the
economy will keep picking up, and Ill be doing better. Ive got a good
network of customers, machine tool dealers, hobbyists and can pick up
a couple dollars puting folks together. I should be getting a small
finders fee from a couple shops I put together on some work recently.
Might lead to good things for them, and they might remember me. Found
a couple folks needing machines, and found someone who had them for
sale. 10% finders fee from the seller. Not much on a $350 or $2500
machine, but its bucks, and more of them call me as my rep for being
the guy to call is spreading. I think since the first of the year,
Ive made more selling old machines to hobbyists and commercial shops
and brokering than I have in doing service work.

I have a good rapport with my customers, and they keep calling me
back, so I must be doing something right. Its just the economy in
California is still **** poor in manufacturing. We seem to be the last
ones to go in the toilet, and the last ones to come out of it. Shrug.
Ive always been something of a pragmatic optimist, so am keeping my
fingers crossed and keeping on, keeping on.
I like the work, am quite good at it within my specialties. On more
than one occasion in the past, Ive sold off everything I owned, and
headed out for greener pastures. Nearly every time..it was the same
old pasture when I got there..so Id rather not once again have to
start from the beginning. Im getting too damned old for that ****.
Living out of your car is ok when you are in your 20s and single..its
not quite so easy when you are 50 and have people that have to be
taken care of.
Yup..its a stone bitch robbing peter to pay paul, living from service
order to service order..and those that insist on paying 'net 30'
really **** things up, but thats the breaks in the biz. Im not the
only guy doing this..LOL..far from it. Its a changing world, and an
uncertain economy. But the buggy whip makers and horseshoe'rs all had
the same situation. Ill bet they occasionally sat in a dark corner
and cried too, but they got off their asses and took care of business.
If we all layed down and curled up when things got rough..the species
would have died out millenia ago. Ill never be able to retire. I
figure Ill die on the job, or in traffic between, or have a stroke or
grab my chest..but at least I will have been known as a guy who kept
on coming, who always tried to take care of his family and his
responsiblities, no matter how ****ty things were. Shrug. Thats all
any of us can do.. And there are lots of others far worse off than me.

"I used to cry that I had no shoes, til I met a man who had no feet"

Gunner

"When your child has matured sufficiently to understand how the judicial
system works, set a bedtime for him and then send him to bed an hour
early. When he tearfully accuses you of breaking the rules, explain that you made the
rules and you can interpret them in any way that seems appropriate to you,
according to changing conditions. This will prepare him for the Supreme Court's concept
of the US Constitution as a 'living document'." --Joseph Sobran

On Wed, 17 Mar 2004 03:30:44 GMT, Bruce L. Bergman
wrote:

Backup employees on call? Give me a break...

Perhaps you didn't notice the smiley?

I know of one
convenience store manager who caught every employee in the store in
collusion and all systematically stealing from the till, fired the lot
of them - and then couldn't get anyone hired (or borrow employees from
another store) to cover the night shifts. Oops...

He ended up working 24 hours for a week. He had to have the
regional manager come in and cover the store for a shift during the
day so he could go home and get a few hours uninterrupted sleep and a
shower. And all this at a flat salary.

As I said, excellent experience if you're preparing to own a small
biz. Except for two things - usually there isn't anyone to call to
spell you, period. And getting to go home for some sleep and a shower?
Whatever happened to crashing in your car or whatever? Kids these
days! :-)

If I EVER get offered a salaried position, working hours are going
to be covered in that contract. I might allow them a little slack for
emergencies, but anything over 40 or 45 hours is going to be paid for,
either in OT or comp time off. Or they can hire me an assistant to
take some the load. Period.

Contract? Cool. Don't forget to write in a clause that the other
employees have to lift the seat before taking a whiz. :-)

Wayne

"Gunner" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 17 Mar 2004 03:30:44 GMT, Bruce L. Bergman
wrote:

If I was Gunner, I'd fix up a small fully self-contained motorhome &
a compact car Toad for errands, or a pickup and a self-contained
travel trailer. If you are going to be working somewhere for a few
days or weeks, rather than a killer commute to Fresno every night you
drive your house down and stay there. The "per diem" should cover the
gas both ways if you work it right.

Make the clients set aside a small /secured/ place to park, and
provide power & phone hook-ups. Or internet - if the company has a
highspeed T1 or SDSL Net connection you can run 100-baseT out there
and use Vonage for your phone.

As an added bonus, if Gunner can't get his house problems sorted
out, he still has a home - a little one riding on radial tires. ;-)


I have a 1978 22' Aljo travel trailer in a park in Ontario. ($350
month) that I work out of during the week. Its within 50 mile radius
of most of my customers in OC and LA. It has a shower, fridge, fax and
internet ($35 for phone and $12 for Bluelight internet). If I have
work, I go down Monday or Tuesday (142 miles each way) from my home in
Taft, and work out of the trailer, then go home Friday night, unless a
customer wants something done over the weekend.

My cell phone is $90 month (Nextel, 600 minutes, free unlimited
incoming) which I have to have as it may take a while for my out of
state customers on a phone support call. At the current gas prices,
last week I spent $85 on fuel, and $30 on food/toilet paper, etc.

Most service calls last 1-3hours, then its on the the next one, or
making cold calls or customer visits. I try to do as many customer
visits over the cell, but I often can get an hours labor out of simply
walking in the door. Might be fixing a machine, a phone system,
unplugging a toilet, etc..bucks is bucks. I charge a different labor
rate for work other than CNC, and depending on customers..some of the
little guys simply cannot pay much, but still need work done. Bucks is
bucks.

Ive been working out of that RV for about 7 yrs now. Bought it for
$800. Its paid for itself several times over. Ive done a number of
jobs in Phoenix, etc, and I generally sleep in my truck on the
customers back lot, to save the cost of a motel. Some times I can get
them to spring for a motel, sometimes not. Shrug.

This week Ive been on the cell making "got work?" calls, and havent
gone to LA, just to save the gas money and wear and tear on my truck,
a 94 Mazda B3000 with 322,000 miles on it (second engine from a
wrecking yard at 294,000). Ive got one little non critical job for a
customer, that wont even pay the gas, and they dont care when I show
(replace a brake on a Hardinge chucker), so Im waiting for a better
service call before going down there. The wife and Daughter in law
have a bunch of medical appointments, so they have been using the
truck. Still havent been able to finish up her 84 Volvo. Its almost
done, but that $235 back registration is holding things up. I sold a
bunch of old machine tools that I had out back a couple weeks ago, so
managed to get mostly caught up to this month on mortgage, power,
water, cell phone etc.
With luck, one of my customers wants me to rebuild 12 OmniTurns, but
he has been promising me that for 4 months. His business is picking
up, but its still not enough to warrant that kind of expenditure. Over
the last 2 yrs, Ive cannibalized them to keep his other ones running,
and they are now going to be mighty pricey to put back to specs.
Servos, ball screws. etc. When Im done, they will be new machines
again..but they are gonna cost him a fair amount of change to do each
one. Shrug. But it will be bucks in my pocket (and out to the
creditors..sigh)

Service work for an independant is feast or famine in this kind of
economy. There have been times where I didnt get a service call for 2
weeks. Nor did anyone else in the biz. Hence my ability at times to
post a lot on the net, and other times Im simply too tired at the end
of the day to even turn on the puter. Shrug.

To make the average service call in Santa Ana..35 miles away..its
usually 1 hour going, and up to 3 hours coming back. Thats if I dont
have to go to Van Nuys, or Dago, or Hemet or Palmdale....

I charge mileage at .40 a mile, portal to portal to/from Ontario, and
travel time at $25 portal to portal. Based on best time..not Sig Alert
time. So if I get a service call in San Marcos, I can pay for the gas
for the week. If its 15 miles away...I make zip. Many weeks I go in
the hole simply going to So.Cal

Move to So. Cal? My mortgage and my RV rent is still less than a 2
bedroom apartment nearly anywhere in So. Cal. I have a reasonably
spacious place in Taft, with the shop, dogs, cats etc etc.,all of
which Ive worked 30 yrs to get and dont wish to dump and start living
out of a dufflebag, in a truck stop at my age. My wife is unable to
work, the kids have the new baby and my wifes son is on SSI, but I
still wind up paying most of their freight.

Not complaining. Shrug..just how things are. I keep hoping that the
economy will keep picking up, and Ill be doing better. Ive got a good
network of customers, machine tool dealers, hobbyists and can pick up
a couple dollars puting folks together. I should be getting a small
finders fee from a couple shops I put together on some work recently.
Might lead to good things for them, and they might remember me. Found
a couple folks needing machines, and found someone who had them for
sale. 10% finders fee from the seller. Not much on a $350 or $2500
machine, but its bucks, and more of them call me as my rep for being
the guy to call is spreading. I think since the first of the year,
Ive made more selling old machines to hobbyists and commercial shops
and brokering than I have in doing service work.

I have a good rapport with my customers, and they keep calling me
back, so I must be doing something right. Its just the economy in
California is still **** poor in manufacturing. We seem to be the last
ones to go in the toilet, and the last ones to come out of it. Shrug.
Ive always been something of a pragmatic optimist, so am keeping my
fingers crossed and keeping on, keeping on.
I like the work, am quite good at it within my specialties. On more
than one occasion in the past, Ive sold off everything I owned, and
headed out for greener pastures. Nearly every time..it was the same
old pasture when I got there..so Id rather not once again have to
start from the beginning. Im getting too damned old for that ****.
Living out of your car is ok when you are in your 20s and single..its
not quite so easy when you are 50 and have people that have to be
taken care of.
Yup..its a stone bitch robbing peter to pay paul, living from service
order to service order..and those that insist on paying 'net 30'
really **** things up, but thats the breaks in the biz. Im not the
only guy doing this..LOL..far from it. Its a changing world, and an
uncertain economy. But the buggy whip makers and horseshoe'rs all had
the same situation. Ill bet they occasionally sat in a dark corner
and cried too, but they got off their asses and took care of business.
If we all layed down and curled up when things got rough..the species
would have died out millenia ago. Ill never be able to retire. I
figure Ill die on the job, or in traffic between, or have a stroke or
grab my chest..but at least I will have been known as a guy who kept
on coming, who always tried to take care of his family and his
responsiblities, no matter how ****ty things were. Shrug. Thats all
any of us can do.. And there are lots of others far worse off than me.

"I used to cry that I had no shoes, til I met a man who had no feet"

Gunner


My hat is off to you for your endurance. Hope it stays with you till that
happy day when you don't have to anymore.
Lane

On Wed, 17 Mar 2004 15:49:25 -0800, "Lane"
lane_nospam@copperaccents_dot_com wrote:


"Gunner" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 17 Mar 2004 03:30:44 GMT, Bruce L. Bergman
wrote:

If I was Gunner, I'd fix up a small fully self-contained motorhome &
a compact car Toad for errands, or a pickup and a self-contained
travel trailer. If you are going to be working somewhere for a few
days or weeks, rather than a killer commute to Fresno every night you
drive your house down and stay there. The "per diem" should cover the
gas both ways if you work it right.

Make the clients set aside a small /secured/ place to park, and
provide power & phone hook-ups. Or internet - if the company has a
highspeed T1 or SDSL Net connection you can run 100-baseT out there
and use Vonage for your phone.

As an added bonus, if Gunner can't get his house problems sorted
out, he still has a home - a little one riding on radial tires. ;-)


I have a 1978 22' Aljo travel trailer in a park in Ontario. ($350
month) that I work out of during the week. Its within 50 mile radius
of most of my customers in OC and LA. It has a shower, fridge, fax and
internet ($35 for phone and $12 for Bluelight internet). If I have
work, I go down Monday or Tuesday (142 miles each way) from my home in
Taft, and work out of the trailer, then go home Friday night, unless a
customer wants something done over the weekend.

My cell phone is $90 month (Nextel, 600 minutes, free unlimited
incoming) which I have to have as it may take a while for my out of
state customers on a phone support call. At the current gas prices,
last week I spent $85 on fuel, and $30 on food/toilet paper, etc.

Most service calls last 1-3hours, then its on the the next one, or
making cold calls or customer visits. I try to do as many customer
visits over the cell, but I often can get an hours labor out of simply
walking in the door. Might be fixing a machine, a phone system,
unplugging a toilet, etc..bucks is bucks. I charge a different labor
rate for work other than CNC, and depending on customers..some of the
little guys simply cannot pay much, but still need work done. Bucks is
bucks.

Ive been working out of that RV for about 7 yrs now. Bought it for
$800. Its paid for itself several times over. Ive done a number of
jobs in Phoenix, etc, and I generally sleep in my truck on the
customers back lot, to save the cost of a motel. Some times I can get
them to spring for a motel, sometimes not. Shrug.

This week Ive been on the cell making "got work?" calls, and havent
gone to LA, just to save the gas money and wear and tear on my truck,
a 94 Mazda B3000 with 322,000 miles on it (second engine from a
wrecking yard at 294,000). Ive got one little non critical job for a
customer, that wont even pay the gas, and they dont care when I show
(replace a brake on a Hardinge chucker), so Im waiting for a better
service call before going down there. The wife and Daughter in law
have a bunch of medical appointments, so they have been using the
truck. Still havent been able to finish up her 84 Volvo. Its almost
done, but that $235 back registration is holding things up. I sold a
bunch of old machine tools that I had out back a couple weeks ago, so
managed to get mostly caught up to this month on mortgage, power,
water, cell phone etc.
With luck, one of my customers wants me to rebuild 12 OmniTurns, but
he has been promising me that for 4 months. His business is picking
up, but its still not enough to warrant that kind of expenditure. Over
the last 2 yrs, Ive cannibalized them to keep his other ones running,
and they are now going to be mighty pricey to put back to specs.
Servos, ball screws. etc. When Im done, they will be new machines
again..but they are gonna cost him a fair amount of change to do each
one. Shrug. But it will be bucks in my pocket (and out to the
creditors..sigh)

Service work for an independant is feast or famine in this kind of
economy. There have been times where I didnt get a service call for 2
weeks. Nor did anyone else in the biz. Hence my ability at times to
post a lot on the net, and other times Im simply too tired at the end
of the day to even turn on the puter. Shrug.

To make the average service call in Santa Ana..35 miles away..its
usually 1 hour going, and up to 3 hours coming back. Thats if I dont
have to go to Van Nuys, or Dago, or Hemet or Palmdale....

I charge mileage at .40 a mile, portal to portal to/from Ontario, and
travel time at $25 portal to portal. Based on best time..not Sig Alert
time. So if I get a service call in San Marcos, I can pay for the gas
for the week. If its 15 miles away...I make zip. Many weeks I go in
the hole simply going to So.Cal

Move to So. Cal? My mortgage and my RV rent is still less than a 2
bedroom apartment nearly anywhere in So. Cal. I have a reasonably
spacious place in Taft, with the shop, dogs, cats etc etc.,all of
which Ive worked 30 yrs to get and dont wish to dump and start living
out of a dufflebag, in a truck stop at my age. My wife is unable to
work, the kids have the new baby and my wifes son is on SSI, but I
still wind up paying most of their freight.

Not complaining. Shrug..just how things are. I keep hoping that the
economy will keep picking up, and Ill be doing better. Ive got a good
network of customers, machine tool dealers, hobbyists and can pick up
a couple dollars puting folks together. I should be getting a small
finders fee from a couple shops I put together on some work recently.
Might lead to good things for them, and they might remember me. Found
a couple folks needing machines, and found someone who had them for
sale. 10% finders fee from the seller. Not much on a $350 or $2500
machine, but its bucks, and more of them call me as my rep for being
the guy to call is spreading. I think since the first of the year,
Ive made more selling old machines to hobbyists and commercial shops
and brokering than I have in doing service work.

I have a good rapport with my customers, and they keep calling me
back, so I must be doing something right. Its just the economy in
California is still **** poor in manufacturing. We seem to be the last
ones to go in the toilet, and the last ones to come out of it. Shrug.
Ive always been something of a pragmatic optimist, so am keeping my
fingers crossed and keeping on, keeping on.
I like the work, am quite good at it within my specialties. On more
than one occasion in the past, Ive sold off everything I owned, and
headed out for greener pastures. Nearly every time..it was the same
old pasture when I got there..so Id rather not once again have to
start from the beginning. Im getting too damned old for that ****.
Living out of your car is ok when you are in your 20s and single..its
not quite so easy when you are 50 and have people that have to be
taken care of.
Yup..its a stone bitch robbing peter to pay paul, living from service
order to service order..and those that insist on paying 'net 30'
really **** things up, but thats the breaks in the biz. Im not the
only guy doing this..LOL..far from it. Its a changing world, and an
uncertain economy. But the buggy whip makers and horseshoe'rs all had
the same situation. Ill bet they occasionally sat in a dark corner
and cried too, but they got off their asses and took care of business.
If we all layed down and curled up when things got rough..the species
would have died out millenia ago. Ill never be able to retire. I
figure Ill die on the job, or in traffic between, or have a stroke or
grab my chest..but at least I will have been known as a guy who kept
on coming, who always tried to take care of his family and his
responsiblities, no matter how ****ty things were. Shrug. Thats all
any of us can do.. And there are lots of others far worse off than me.

"I used to cry that I had no shoes, til I met a man who had no feet"

Gunner


My hat is off to you for your endurance. Hope it stays with you till that
happy day when you don't have to anymore.
Lane


Maybe Ill win the lottery G

Gunner

"When your child has matured sufficiently to understand how the judicial
system works, set a bedtime for him and then send him to bed an hour
early. When he tearfully accuses you of breaking the rules, explain that you made the
rules and you can interpret them in any way that seems appropriate to you,
according to changing conditions. This will prepare him for the Supreme Court's concept
of the US Constitution as a 'living document'." --Joseph Sobran

On Thu, 18 Mar 2004 02:07:30 GMT, Gunner
wrote:
On Wed, 17 Mar 2004 15:49:25 -0800, "Lane"
lane_nospam@copperaccents_dot_com wrote:

My hat is off to you for your endurance. Hope it stays with you till that
happy day when you don't have to anymore.
Lane


Maybe Ill win the lottery G

Gunner

If the CA Lottery is your retirement plan, don't "invest" more than
a couple (Sub $5) dollars a week - the 'interest rates' are horrid.
(IOW, by the time you finally hit a jackpot you might get to retire at
the ripe old age of 135.)

I think I've bet a total of under $10 since they started it. "For
the schools"? Bull****. Every dollar that the lottery contributes to
schools, that's one dollar less they need from the general fund that
can be diverted elsewhere.

-- Bruce --

--
Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop
Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700
5737 Kanan Rd. #359, Agoura CA 91301 (818) 889-9545
Spamtrapped address: Remove the python and the invalid, and use a net.

On Thu, 18 Mar 2004 03:59:33 GMT, Bruce L. Bergman
wrote:

On Thu, 18 Mar 2004 02:07:30 GMT, Gunner
wrote:
On Wed, 17 Mar 2004 15:49:25 -0800, "Lane"
lane_nospam@copperaccents_dot_com wrote:

My hat is off to you for your endurance. Hope it stays with you till that
happy day when you don't have to anymore.
Lane


Maybe Ill win the lottery G

Gunner

If the CA Lottery is your retirement plan, don't "invest" more than
a couple (Sub $5) dollars a week - the 'interest rates' are horrid.
(IOW, by the time you finally hit a jackpot you might get to retire at
the ripe old age of 135.)

I think I've bet a total of under $10 since they started it. "For
the schools"? Bull****. Every dollar that the lottery contributes to
schools, that's one dollar less they need from the general fund that
can be diverted elsewhere.

-- Bruce --

LOL..indeed. I t hink Ive spent around $15 in all that time. Only
when the lottery gets over $20 million or so, and then in Quick Picks.

Oddly enough...most Lottery Winners in California are not native
English speakers. Must be good kharma.

Gunner

"As physicists now know, there is some nonzero probability that any object will,
through quantum effects, tunnel from the workbench in your shop to Floyds Knobs,
Indiana (unless your shop is already in Indiana, in which case the object will
tunnel to Trotters, North Dakota).
The smaller mass of the object, the higher the probability.
Therefore, disassembled parts, particularly small ones,
of machines disappear much faster than assembled machines."
Greg Dermer: rec.crafts.metalworking

On Tue, 16 Mar 2004 08:27:45 GMT, Gunner wrote:
Just out of curiosity..what does it take to be self employed in a
starving industry with plenty of competition for the same work orders?

Considering your results to date?

I'd be inclined to say stupidity, except I know you aren't stupid.
So it must be something else.

Perhaps you're operating under the delusion it is going to get
better, very very soon. I'd have to say that's unlikely, and you
should know that it is unlikely.

That leaves a severe case of self-destructive behavior as the
most likely answer.

Gary

On Thu, 18 Mar 2004 04:25:15 -0500, Gary Coffman
wrote:

On Tue, 16 Mar 2004 08:27:45 GMT, Gunner wrote:
Just out of curiosity..what does it take to be self employed in a
starving industry with plenty of competition for the same work orders?

Considering your results to date?

I'd be inclined to say stupidity, except I know you aren't stupid.
So it must be something else.

Perhaps you're operating under the delusion it is going to get
better, very very soon. I'd have to say that's unlikely, and you
should know that it is unlikely.

Seems to be picking up in California manufacturing.
Time will tell. It doesnt have to be great, just regular.

That leaves a severe case of self-destructive behavior as the
most likely answer.

Gary

Could be. I was raised poor, so I guess Im trying to stay true to my
roots. Right?

Gunner

"As physicists now know, there is some nonzero probability that any object will,
through quantum effects, tunnel from the workbench in your shop to Floyds Knobs,
Indiana (unless your shop is already in Indiana, in which case the object will
tunnel to Trotters, North Dakota).
The smaller mass of the object, the higher the probability.
Therefore, disassembled parts, particularly small ones,
of machines disappear much faster than assembled machines."
Greg Dermer: rec.crafts.metalworking

On Thu, 18 Mar 2004 10:53:43 GMT, Gunner wrote:
On Thu, 18 Mar 2004 04:25:15 -0500, Gary Coffman
wrote:
Perhaps you're operating under the delusion it is going to get
better, very very soon. I'd have to say that's unlikely, and you
should know that it is unlikely.

Seems to be picking up in California manufacturing.
Time will tell. It doesnt have to be great, just regular.

As the kid said while frantically shoveling, "With all this ****,
there's just *got* to be a pony under there somewhere."

That leaves a severe case of self-destructive behavior as the
most likely answer.

Could be. I was raised poor, so I guess Im trying to stay true to my
roots. Right?

Farmer wins the lottery. Reporter asks, "Now that you've won the
lottery, what are you going to do?" Farmer answers, "Guess I'll
keep farming until the money runs out."

Problem is, if what you've been telling us is true, you haven't won
the lottery, and the money is running out.

I sincerely hope you can hang on until better times. But there
probably isn't a pony under there, and you're likely to wind up
with no assets at all if you keep flogging what appears to be
a dead horse.

Gary

On Thu, 18 Mar 2004 03:59:33 GMT, Bruce L. Bergman
wrote:

On Thu, 18 Mar 2004 02:07:30 GMT, Gunner
wrote:
On Wed, 17 Mar 2004 15:49:25 -0800, "Lane"
lane_nospam@copperaccents_dot_com wrote:

My hat is off to you for your endurance. Hope it stays with you till that
happy day when you don't have to anymore.
Lane


Maybe Ill win the lottery G

Gunner

If the CA Lottery is your retirement plan, don't "invest" more than
a couple (Sub $5) dollars a week - the 'interest rates' are horrid.
(IOW, by the time you finally hit a jackpot you might get to retire at
the ripe old age of 135.)

I don't have any idea as to the accuracy of this - just something I
got in e-mail:

Subject: Investments

If you had purchased $1000.00 of Nortel stock one year
ago, it would now be worth $49.00.

With Enron, you would have $16.50 left of the original
$1,000.00.

With WorldCom, you would have less than $5.00 left.

But, if you had purchased $1,000.00 worth of Beer one
year ago, drank all the beer, then turned in the cans for the aluminum
recycling price, you would have $214.00.

Based on the above, current investment advice is to
drink heavily and recycle.

It's called the 401-Keg Plan

Sue

Sue wrote:


But, if you had purchased $1,000.00 worth of Beer one
year ago, drank all the beer, then turned in the cans for the aluminum
recycling price, you would have $214.00.

Based on the above, current investment advice is to
drink heavily and recycle.

The math is way off for us over in the southeast.

Soda cars run about 48 to the pound. Cans at the local recycler are
bring about 60 cents a pound.

Beer - maybe $10.00 case for bud, etc.

That's 100 cases or 50 pounds of cans. Even at $1.00 pound for cans
that's just $50.00.

Howard

On Thu, 18 Mar 2004 06:32:47 -0500, Gary Coffman
wrote:

On Thu, 18 Mar 2004 10:53:43 GMT, Gunner wrote:
On Thu, 18 Mar 2004 04:25:15 -0500, Gary Coffman
wrote:
Perhaps you're operating under the delusion it is going to get
better, very very soon. I'd have to say that's unlikely, and you
should know that it is unlikely.

Seems to be picking up in California manufacturing.
Time will tell. It doesnt have to be great, just regular.

As the kid said while frantically shoveling, "With all this ****,
there's just *got* to be a pony under there somewhere."

That leaves a severe case of self-destructive behavior as the
most likely answer.

Could be. I was raised poor, so I guess Im trying to stay true to my
roots. Right?

Farmer wins the lottery. Reporter asks, "Now that you've won the
lottery, what are you going to do?" Farmer answers, "Guess I'll
keep farming until the money runs out."

Problem is, if what you've been telling us is true, you haven't won
the lottery, and the money is running out.

I sincerely hope you can hang on until better times. But there
probably isn't a pony under there, and you're likely to wind up
with no assets at all if you keep flogging what appears to be
a dead horse.

Gary

Maybe, maybe not. Still in all..there really hasnt been too many
alternatives yet, and Ive been looking. None that dont cost more
money than I can raise, to impliment.

Gunner

"As physicists now know, there is some nonzero probability that any object will,
through quantum effects, tunnel from the workbench in your shop to Floyds Knobs,
Indiana (unless your shop is already in Indiana, in which case the object will
tunnel to Trotters, North Dakota).
The smaller mass of the object, the higher the probability.
Therefore, disassembled parts, particularly small ones,
of machines disappear much faster than assembled machines."
Greg Dermer: rec.crafts.metalworking

On Thu, 18 Mar 2004 10:35:47 -0500, Howard R Garner
wrote:

Sue wrote:


But, if you had purchased $1,000.00 worth of Beer one
year ago, drank all the beer, then turned in the cans for the aluminum
recycling price, you would have $214.00.

Based on the above, current investment advice is to
drink heavily and recycle.

The math is way off for us over in the southeast.

Soda cars run about 48 to the pound. Cans at the local recycler are
bring about 60 cents a pound.

Beer - maybe $10.00 case for bud, etc.

That's 100 cases or 50 pounds of cans. Even at $1.00 pound for cans
that's just $50.00.

I don't personally recycle (I don't drink soda and my 2 or 3 beers a
year don't add up to much) which is why I put the statement at the
beginning that I don't know the accuracy of the stats. It seemed
awfully high to me.
Sue

Howard

On Thu, 18 Mar 2004 18:27:02 GMT, Gunner wrote:
Maybe, maybe not. Still in all..there really hasnt been too many
alternatives yet, and Ive been looking. None that dont cost more
money than I can raise, to impliment.

Well, if you wouldn't mind driving twice as much as you do now,
and can qualify for a CDL, JB Hunt is hiring. They'll start you at
30 cents a mile (upped to 34 cents a mile in steps by the end of
the first year), and guarantee you 2,500 miles a week. That's
$41,600 the first year. After that, they have programs that can
raise you to 41 cents a mile, which works out to $53,300 a year.

Or you can supply your own tractor and they'll pay you 82 cents
a mile. That's $106,600 a year, but you'll have to pay off the
tractor out of that. (They require your rig to be less than ten
years old, and it'd cost you around a year's wages to pay for
a suitable used rig.)

Truck driver isn't a very glamorous job, and you're on the road
six days a week. But it does pay better than what you're doing
now, and driving for Hunt is steady work. A friend of mine drove
for them for several years. He was able to sock away quite a bit
of money by the time he wore out his rig.

Or there's still always QuikTrip. I was in there tonight getting
gas and noticed they have a new sign up. They're now saying
a store manager averages $53,320 a year in this area. That's
not a glamorous job either, but it is a steady paycheck, and
about twice what you say you're grossing now.

Gary

A city wide blackout at Wed, 17 Mar 2004 15:49:25 -0800 did not prevent
"Lane" lane_nospam@copperaccents_dot_com from posting to
rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

Yup..its a stone bitch robbing peter to pay paul, living from service
order to service order..and those that insist on paying 'net 30'
really **** things up, but thats the breaks in the biz. Im not the
only guy doing this..LOL..far from it. Its a changing world, and an
uncertain economy. But the buggy whip makers and horseshoe'rs all had
the same situation. Ill bet they occasionally sat in a dark corner
and cried too, but they got off their asses and took care of business.
If we all layed down and curled up when things got rough..the species
would have died out millenia ago. Ill never be able to retire. I
figure Ill die on the job, or in traffic between, or have a stroke or
grab my chest..but at least I will have been known as a guy who kept
on coming, who always tried to take care of his family and his
responsiblities, no matter how ****ty things were. Shrug. Thats all
any of us can do.. And there are lots of others far worse off than me.

"I used to cry that I had no shoes, til I met a man who had no feet"

Gunner


My hat is off to you for your endurance. Hope it stays with you till that
happy day when you don't have to anymore.
Lane

With my best "smile when I say that", it sounds to me like Gunner just
sounds too dumb to know he's licked. Poor idiot doesn't know he's licked, and
will just soldier on through when any ordinary person would have packed it in
years ago.

Damn, and in all sincerity, I do wish him well.

pyotr


--
pyotr filipivich.
as an explaination for the decline in the US's tech edge, James
Niccol wrote "It used to be that the USA was pretty good at
producing stuff teenaged boys could lose a finger or two playing with."