last year i bot a cheapie HF sharpening grinder (with slow water
cooled 2"x8" wheel) worked fine, restored many edges over several
weeks. then, after talking my brother, who worked in a slaughter
house as a youth, i bot a decent steel (steele?).

i have yet to use the grinder again (for kitchen knives). today
was the real test, a couple of _really_ dull 6" cleavers that i missed
last year. not wanting to set up the grinder for just two edges
i tried just the steele. it did the job just fine. i just sliced
some onion with each of them. go figure, too soon old, too late
smart. --Loren

p.s. just fyi, for newbies, i have "played" with steeles for years,
never appreciating the results. there is some technique, and a decent
steel is required. prior (dismal) attempts were with chrome plated
(cheapie) models.

You probably bought one of those diamond coated steels. They're nice. We
have a butcher shop on our farm. We went from having our knives ground
often to keeping our own knives sharp with the diamond coated. (well that's
what they call it anyway....I doubt if there's diamond on it)
Ivan
"Loren A. Coe" wrote in message
news:45U0c.96296$Xp.428508@attbi_s54...
last year i bot a cheapie HF sharpening grinder (with slow water
cooled 2"x8" wheel) worked fine, restored many edges over several
weeks. then, after talking my brother, who worked in a slaughter
house as a youth, i bot a decent steel (steele?).

i have yet to use the grinder again (for kitchen knives). today
was the real test, a couple of _really_ dull 6" cleavers that i missed
last year. not wanting to set up the grinder for just two edges
i tried just the steele. it did the job just fine. i just sliced
some onion with each of them. go figure, too soon old, too late
smart. --Loren

p.s. just fyi, for newbies, i have "played" with steeles for years,
never appreciating the results. there is some technique, and a decent
steel is required. prior (dismal) attempts were with chrome plated
(cheapie) models.

On Tue, 2 Mar 2004 01:33:58 -0600, "Ivan"
vaguely proposed a theory
.......and in reply I say!:

You probably bought one of those diamond coated steels. They're nice. We
have a butcher shop on our farm. We went from having our knives ground
often to keeping our own knives sharp with the diamond coated. (well that's
what they call it anyway....I doubt if there's diamond on it)

You would probably be wrong. Minute industrial grit. And yes they work
amazingly well. For tools as well as knives. (Well, I have a
grindstone of the same stuff, and I use the little "steels" on
clippers etc.)

Give a couple to your wife as earrings. "Here dear. I bought you some
diamond earrings!" They _always_ know G
************************************************** ** sorry

..........no I'm not!
remove ns from my header address to reply via email

Spike....Spike? Hello?

"Loren A. Coe" wrote in message news:45U0c.96296$Xp.428508@attbi_s54...
last year i bot a cheapie HF sharpening grinder (with slow water
cooled 2"x8" wheel) worked fine, restored many edges over several
weeks. then, after talking my brother, who worked in a slaughter
house as a youth, i bot a decent steel (steele?).

i have yet to use the grinder again (for kitchen knives). today
was the real test, a couple of _really_ dull 6" cleavers that i missed
last year. not wanting to set up the grinder for just two edges
i tried just the steele. it did the job just fine. i just sliced
some onion with each of them. go figure, too soon old, too late
smart. --Loren

p.s. just fyi, for newbies, i have "played" with steeles for years,
never appreciating the results. there is some technique, and a decent
steel is required. prior (dismal) attempts were with chrome plated
(cheapie) models.

The old style steels were meant to straighten a turned edge and were
not for metal removal.
The new diamond ones are abrasive and remove metal.
2 different ways of operating

On Tue, 02 Mar 2004 16:56:08 +0800, Old Nick wrote:

|On Tue, 2 Mar 2004 01:33:58 -0600, "Ivan"
|vaguely proposed a theory
|......and in reply I say!:
|
|You probably bought one of those diamond coated steels. They're nice. We
|have a butcher shop on our farm. We went from having our knives ground
|often to keeping our own knives sharp with the diamond coated. (well that's
|what they call it anyway....I doubt if there's diamond on it)
|
|You would probably be wrong. Minute industrial grit. And yes they work
|amazingly well. For tools as well as knives. (Well, I have a
|grindstone of the same stuff, and I use the little "steels" on
|clippers etc.)

OK, I'm convinced, and I'm tired of dull kitchen knives.
Where does one buy a good steel, and how can you tell it's a good one?
Rex in Fort Worth

Beecrofter wrote:
"Loren A. Coe" wrote in message news:45U0c.96296$Xp.428508@attbi_s54...
last year i bot a cheapie HF sharpening grinder (with slow water
cooled 2"x8" wheel) worked fine, restored many edges over several
weeks. then, after talking my brother, who worked in a slaughter
house as a youth, i bot a decent steel (steele?).

i have yet to use the grinder again (for kitchen knives). today
was the real test, a couple of _really_ dull 6" cleavers that i missed
last year. not wanting to set up the grinder for just two edges
i tried just the steele. it did the job just fine. i just sliced
some onion with each of them. go figure, too soon old, too late
smart. --Loren

p.s. just fyi, for newbies, i have "played" with steeles for years,
never appreciating the results. there is some technique, and a decent
steel is required. prior (dismal) attempts were with chrome plated
(cheapie) models.

The old style steels were meant to straighten a turned edge and were
not for metal removal.
The new diamond ones are abrasive and remove metal.
2 different ways of operating

yes, agreed. this is the old style, a Chicago 12", it may be stainless,
but i don't know. it is only 8" of working surface, the fine longitudenal
groves. these are sold seperately or with knife sets, made in China.
WalMart carries the sets, Kohls carries the sets and the steels.

if i were doing it again, i might be tempted for a nicer, longer one,
but this one is quite handy for the length of edges i have. eventaully,
i should end up with both. dunno about the diamond type, as you say, a
different deal altogther, a newbie could probably do some real damage
to an edge.

another tip for novices, _patience_ is the key. talking to a butcher
may help but you will see/get difference techniques for everyone you
ask. also, the edge condition determines whether a steel can restore
the edge and i advise to start looking at them under 10x or so and
learn to recognize a good edge that is just dull. these two cleavers
surprised me, i did look at them and they looked fairly nice, just
dull. good luck, --Loren

In article Kp51c.165037$jk2.606971@attbi_s53, Loren A. Coe
wrote:

Beecrofter wrote:
"Loren A. Coe" wrote in message
news:45U0c.96296$Xp.428508@attbi_s54...
last year i bot a cheapie HF sharpening grinder (with slow water
cooled 2"x8" wheel) worked fine, restored many edges over several
weeks. then, after talking my brother, who worked in a slaughter
house as a youth, i bot a decent steel (steele?).

i have yet to use the grinder again (for kitchen knives). today
was the real test, a couple of _really_ dull 6" cleavers that i missed
last year. not wanting to set up the grinder for just two edges
i tried just the steele. it did the job just fine. i just sliced
some onion with each of them. go figure, too soon old, too late
smart. --Loren

p.s. just fyi, for newbies, i have "played" with steeles for years,
never appreciating the results. there is some technique, and a decent
steel is required. prior (dismal) attempts were with chrome plated
(cheapie) models.

The old style steels were meant to straighten a turned edge and were
not for metal removal.
The new diamond ones are abrasive and remove metal.
2 different ways of operating

yes, agreed. this is the old style, a Chicago 12", it may be stainless,
but i don't know. it is only 8" of working surface, the fine longitudenal
groves. these are sold seperately or with knife sets, made in China.
WalMart carries the sets, Kohls carries the sets and the steels.

if i were doing it again, i might be tempted for a nicer, longer one,
but this one is quite handy for the length of edges i have. eventaully,
i should end up with both. dunno about the diamond type, as you say, a
different deal altogther, a newbie could probably do some real damage
to an edge.

another tip for novices, _patience_ is the key. talking to a butcher
may help but you will see/get difference techniques for everyone you
ask. also, the edge condition determines whether a steel can restore
the edge and i advise to start looking at them under 10x or so and
learn to recognize a good edge that is just dull. these two cleavers
surprised me, i did look at them and they looked fairly nice, just
dull. good luck, --Loren



I have 3 steels in a rack near my knives.
A diamond steel for actual sharpening.
A standard honing steel for regular maintenance.
And a "Butcher's" Steel, a mirror finished glass hard rod of high
carbon steel used to burnish the edge perfect.

Use all 3 in succession and beware the tomato that dares offend me.

OK, I'm convinced, and I'm tired of dull kitchen knives.
Where does one buy a good steel, and how can you tell it's a good one?

AAguy at a county faair was selling a knife sharpener. Did damazing things
with a mortar hoe, rusty knives, etc. Suddenly a light flashed... Now at
garage sales if I find a rusty butcher knife, it'll soon be mine. That sort of
iron seems to take a good (not long lasting) edge (slices paper-a test). It
will also raise heck with a tomato.
Paul in AJ AZ

"Ernie Leimkuhler" wrote in message
...
In article Kp51c.165037$jk2.606971@attbi_s53, Loren A. Coe
wrote:

Beecrofter wrote:
"Loren A. Coe" wrote in message
news:45U0c.96296$Xp.428508@attbi_s54...
last year i bot a cheapie HF sharpening grinder (with slow water
cooled 2"x8" wheel) worked fine, restored many edges over several
weeks. then, after talking my brother, who worked in a slaughter
house as a youth, i bot a decent steel (steele?).

i have yet to use the grinder again (for kitchen knives). today
was the real test, a couple of _really_ dull 6" cleavers that i
missed
last year. not wanting to set up the grinder for just two edges
i tried just the steele. it did the job just fine. i just sliced
some onion with each of them. go figure, too soon old, too late
smart. --Loren

p.s. just fyi, for newbies, i have "played" with steeles for years,
never appreciating the results. there is some technique, and a decent
steel is required. prior (dismal) attempts were with chrome plated
(cheapie) models.

The old style steels were meant to straighten a turned edge and were
not for metal removal.
The new diamond ones are abrasive and remove metal.
2 different ways of operating

yes, agreed. this is the old style, a Chicago 12", it may be stainless,
but i don't know. it is only 8" of working surface, the fine
longitudenal
groves. these are sold seperately or with knife sets, made in China.
WalMart carries the sets, Kohls carries the sets and the steels.

if i were doing it again, i might be tempted for a nicer, longer one,
but this one is quite handy for the length of edges i have. eventaully,
i should end up with both. dunno about the diamond type, as you say, a
different deal altogther, a newbie could probably do some real damage
to an edge.

another tip for novices, _patience_ is the key. talking to a butcher
may help but you will see/get difference techniques for everyone you
ask. also, the edge condition determines whether a steel can restore
the edge and i advise to start looking at them under 10x or so and
learn to recognize a good edge that is just dull. these two cleavers
surprised me, i did look at them and they looked fairly nice, just
dull. good luck, --Loren



I have 3 steels in a rack near my knives.
A diamond steel for actual sharpening.
A standard honing steel for regular maintenance.
And a "Butcher's" Steel, a mirror finished glass hard rod of high
carbon steel used to burnish the edge perfect.

Use all 3 in succession and beware the tomato that dares offend me.

How much life can we expect from a diamond steel?

I have 3 steels in a rack near my knives.
A diamond steel for actual sharpening.
A standard honing steel for regular maintenance.
And a "Butcher's" Steel, a mirror finished glass hard rod of high
carbon steel used to burnish the edge perfect.

Use all 3 in succession and beware the tomato that dares offend me.

After I started putting the final hone on customers knives with a
little green chromium oxide on a leather belt they can slice a tomato
so thin it only has one side!

On Tue, 02 Mar 2004 19:58:39 GMT, Ernie Leimkuhler
vaguely proposed a theory
.......and in reply I say!:

This is roughly what I was going to say

I have 3 steels in a rack near my knives.
A diamond steel for actual sharpening.
A standard honing steel for regular maintenance.
And a "Butcher's" Steel, a mirror finished glass hard rod of high
carbon steel used to burnish the edge perfect.

Use all 3 in succession and beware the tomato that dares offend me.

************************************************** ** sorry

..........no I'm not!
remove ns from my header address to reply via email

Spike....Spike? Hello?

On Tue, 2 Mar 2004 14:28:47 -0600, "Ivan"
vaguely proposed a theory
.......and in reply I say!:

I hate to start a bottomposttoppost argument. But if you are going to
bottom post, could do a _bit_ of snipping before your one-liner?

How often are you going to use it? Most of them are diamonds embeddded
in Nickel or other metal AFAIK. They last a long time. They make the
job so easy they are worth it. You can _feel_ them biting.

BTW. You don't need to get a greta long one. I use a little
rectangular thing about 3cm wide and 8 cm long. I bought 3 grades for
about $15.

How much life can we expect from a diamond steel?


************************************************** ** sorry

..........no I'm not!
remove ns from my header address to reply via email

Spike....Spike? Hello?

After I started putting the final hone on customers knives with a
little green chromium oxide on a leather belt they can slice a tomato
so thin it only has one side!

I use green stuff too. When I go to check a knife by shaving my arm, the
hairs jump off from fright.

(Beecrofter) wrote in message . com...
"Loren A. Coe" wrote in message news:45U0c.96296$Xp.428508@attbi_s54...
last year i bot a cheapie HF sharpening grinder (with slow water
cooled 2"x8" wheel) worked fine, restored many edges over several
weeks. then, after talking my brother, who worked in a slaughter
house as a youth, i bot a decent steel (steele?).

i have yet to use the grinder again (for kitchen knives). today
was the real test, a couple of _really_ dull 6" cleavers that i missed
last year. not wanting to set up the grinder for just two edges
i tried just the steele. it did the job just fine. i just sliced
some onion with each of them. go figure, too soon old, too late
smart. --Loren

p.s. just fyi, for newbies, i have "played" with steeles for years,
never appreciating the results. there is some technique, and a decent
steel is required. prior (dismal) attempts were with chrome plated
(cheapie) models.

The old style steels were meant to straighten a turned edge and were
not for metal removal.
The new diamond ones are abrasive and remove metal.
2 different ways of operating

Excellent observation, saving me a lengthy post!

I steel my knives each time I use them, so they need sharpening only
every other year. Then too, I don't own a butcher shop. :-)

Thanks! :-)

Harry C.

On Tue, 02 Mar 2004 19:09:15 GMT, (Rex B)
brought forth from the murky depths:

OK, I'm convinced, and I'm tired of dull kitchen knives.
Where does one buy a good steel, and how can you tell it's a good one?

I use a DMT 600 grit diamond plate on both my wood/metalworking
tool blades and knives. That's it for the kitchen knives, as
they work better with a bit of bite. I ScarySharpen(tm) the
shop blades with 1000 and 1500 grit wetordry sandpaper, then
finish up with a strop.


..-.
Better Living Through Denial
---
http://www.diversify.com Wondrous Website Design

Yup.
if you bottom post, do snip

I have had mine for 12 years and it stIn article
, Ivan
wrote:

"Ernie Leimkuhler" wrote in message
...
In article Kp51c.165037$jk2.606971@attbi_s53, Loren A. Coe
wrote:

Beecrofter wrote:
"Loren A. Coe" wrote in message
snip

another tip for novices, _patience_ is the key. talking to a butcher
may help but you will see/get difference techniques for everyone you
ask. also, the edge condition determines whether a steel can restore
the edge and i advise to start looking at them under 10x or so and
learn to recognize a good edge that is just dull. these two cleavers
surprised me, i did look at them and they looked fairly nice, just
dull. good luck, --Loren



I have 3 steels in a rack near my knives.
A diamond steel for actual sharpening.
A standard honing steel for regular maintenance.
And a "Butcher's" Steel, a mirror finished glass hard rod of high
carbon steel used to burnish the edge perfect.

Use all 3 in succession and beware the tomato that dares offend me.

How much life can we expect from a diamond steel?


I have had mine for 12 years and it still works fine

On Tue, 02 Mar 2004 19:58:39 GMT, Ernie Leimkuhler
vaguely proposed a theory
.......and in reply I say!:

Actually, the tomatoes have a problem. Isn't it the tomato that
_pleases_ you that will see the sharp edge? G

Use all 3 in succession and beware the tomato that dares offend me.

************************************************** ** sorry

..........no I'm not!
remove ns from my header address to reply via email

Spike....Spike? Hello?

On Tue, 2 Mar 2004 21:03:28 -0600, "Ivan"
vaguely proposed a theory
.......and in reply I say!:
plonk
Yup.
if you bottom post, do snip


************************************************** ** sorry

..........no I'm not!
remove ns from my header address to reply via email

Spike....Spike? Hello?

On 2 Mar 2004 17:32:21 -0800, (Harry Conover) wrote:

The old style steels were meant to straighten a turned edge and were
not for metal removal.

Zoltan Malocsay had an excellent article on using lapidary equipment
for sharpening knives in Rock&Gem a few years back. Can't find it now,
but I seem to remember him likening using a steel to putting a "set"
into saw teeth. Said the steel pulled the tiny teeth created by
regular sharpening into alignment, which is why butchers were
constantly using their steels on thei working blades. Goos stuff;
maybe someone has a copy. Zoltan was generally as sharp as the knives
he wrote about in the magazine.

Pep674 wrote:

OK, I'm convinced, and I'm tired of dull kitchen knives.
Where does one buy a good steel, and how can you tell it's a good one?


AAguy at a county faair was selling a knife sharpener. Did damazing things
with a mortar hoe, rusty knives, etc. Suddenly a light flashed... Now at
garage sales if I find a rusty butcher knife, it'll soon be mine. That sort of
iron seems to take a good (not long lasting) edge (slices paper-a test). It
will also raise heck with a tomato.
Paul in AJ AZ
From my experience, - my father-in-law's dad was a butcher - the steel is
1. long for a long slicing blade
2. isn't stainless steel.
3. is cut not stamped or rolled.

If you ever had a wood scraper - and know how to square the end and then burnish
it these thin slicing edges cut the wood nicely.

On a steel, the pattern is long sharp but hard and firm - not cutting sharp.

It shears metal off the knife blade with long arcing strokes.

My late father-in-law sharpened in two ways - blade away from him and slicing
away - Typically when he had to really take some metal off - due to a nick.
But the way he did most sharpening was sharp blade coming down on either sides
toward the hand that holds the handle. Nice to have a hand guard just in case
the metal breaks or jumps off the steel.

I think Steels were shaper cut - a machine like that - pulling the full length
cutting the slot. Likely a die pull. A movable gripping type to contour to the tip.

Martin

--
Martin Eastburn, Barbara Eastburn
@ home at Lion's Lair with our computer
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder

while I have a number of steels of all grades and types, I find myself
using Crock Sticks of various types for most of t he knives on my person
or around the house.

If its really bad, Ill drag out one of the Lansky sharpening sets and
build a good edge, then finish with a crock stick

My carry Kukri ,which is very very old, will shave arm hairs using this
process. The Henkles (sp?) kitchen knives come out scary sharp

Gunner

The two highest achievements of the human mind are the twin concepts of "loyalty" and "duty."
Whenever these twin concepts fall into disrepute -- get out of there fast! You may possibly
save yourself, but it is too late to save that society. It is doomed. " Lazarus Long

"Gunner" wrote in message
...

...

Gunner

The two highest achievements of the human mind are the twin concepts of "loyalty"
and "duty."
Whenever these twin concepts fall into disrepute -- get out of there fast! You may
possibly
save yourself, but it is too late to save that society. It is doomed. " Lazarus
Long

Hey Gunner...
Isn't it time for a new sig?

I mean - its a bit sad quoting a fictional character who approved of and practised
incest.

Don't you think?

Cheers
Jeff

"A.Gent" wrote in message
...
I mean - its a bit sad quoting a fictional character who approved of and
practised incest.

Oh, since when did Gunner care about any oddities or atrocities his sig
quotees ever did? He just picks what sounds good and accomplishes his
purpose...

Tim

--
"I have misplaced my pants." - Homer Simpson | Electronics,
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - --+ Metalcasting
and Games: http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms

On Wed, 3 Mar 2004 22:09:24 +1100, "A.Gent"
wrote:


"Gunner" wrote in message
.. .

...

Gunner

The two highest achievements of the human mind are the twin concepts of "loyalty"
and "duty."
Whenever these twin concepts fall into disrepute -- get out of there fast! You may
possibly
save yourself, but it is too late to save that society. It is doomed. " Lazarus
Long

Hey Gunner...
Isn't it time for a new sig?
Ill dig something up.

I mean - its a bit sad quoting a fictional character who approved of and practised
incest.

Don't you think?

Cheers
Jeff

You mean it wasnt constitutionally protected like same sex marraige?

Gunner


"The importance of morality is that people behave themselves even if
nobody's watching. There are not enough cops and laws to replace
personal morality as a means to produce a civilized society. Indeed,
the police and criminal justice system are the last desperate line of
defense for a civilized society. Unfortunately, too many of us see
police, laws and the criminal justice system as society's first line
of defense." --Walter Williams

On Wed, 3 Mar 2004 12:25:03 -0600, "Tim Williams"
wrote:

"A.Gent" wrote in message
u...
I mean - its a bit sad quoting a fictional character who approved of and
practised incest.

Oh, since when did Gunner care about any oddities or atrocities his sig
quotees ever did? He just picks what sounds good and accomplishes his
purpose...

Tim

Still molesting your little brother?

Gunner

The two highest achievements of the human mind are the twin concepts of "loyalty" and "duty."
Whenever these twin concepts fall into disrepute -- get out of there fast! You may possibly
save yourself, but it is too late to save that society. It is doomed. " Lazarus Long

"Gunner" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 3 Mar 2004 22:09:24 +1100, "A.Gent"
wrote:

I mean - its a bit sad quoting a fictional character who approved of and practised
incest.

Don't you think?

Cheers
Jeff

You mean it wasnt constitutionally protected like same sex marraige?

Gunner


I'm sorry, I don't understand your riposte.

Are you equating incest with homosexuality?
Are you defending incest?

Never mind.
It doesn't matter.

Glad to see you've updated your sig.

Jeff

On Thu, 4 Mar 2004 16:20:59 +1100, "A.Gent"
wrote:


"Gunner" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 3 Mar 2004 22:09:24 +1100, "A.Gent"
wrote:

I mean - its a bit sad quoting a fictional character who approved of and practised
incest.

Don't you think?

Cheers
Jeff

You mean it wasnt constitutionally protected like same sex marraige?

Gunner


I'm sorry, I don't understand your riposte.

Somehow Im not surprised.

Are you equating incest with homosexuality?

Only in so far they are both Constitutionally protected.

Are you defending incest?

Should I be?

Never mind.
It doesn't matter.

Indeed.

Glad to see you've updated your sig.

Jeff

Ill browse through the several dozen I have, until I find one that
****es you off, then lock it in for a while.


"The Democratic Party is the party of this popular corruption.
The heart of the Democratic Party and its activist core is
made up of government unions, government dependent professions
(teachers, social workers, civil servants); special interest and
special benefits groups (abortion rights, is a good example) that
feed off the government trough; and ethnic constituencies, African
Americans being the most prominent, who are disproportionately
invested in government jobs and in programs that government provides.

" The Democratic Party credo is 'Take as much of the people's money as
politically feasible, and use that money to buy as many of the
people's votes as possible'.
Tax cuts are a threat to this Democratic agenda.
Consequently, Democrats loathe and despise them." -Semi-reformed
Leftist David Horowitz

"Gunner" wrote in message
...
Glad to see you've updated your sig.

Jeff

Ill browse through the several dozen I have, until I find one that
****es you off, then lock it in for a while.


OK.
I can help here.
I'm Australian, so anything about "Democrats" or "Republicans" is of no interest and
certainly won't rankle. "Liberal" to me means right-wing, conservative. (Aussies will
understand).
I share your interest in (old, big?) machinery, so that's an unfortunate area in
common.

Ummmm....

I know!

I approve of gun control.
The stricter the better.

You wouldn't have anything on *that* would you?

(A long shot, I know, but I am trying to help here.)

Jeff

I will top post, bottom post and insert post as I see fit!! If you don't
like the way I'm living, plonk me.


Les

"Gunner" wrote in message
...
Still molesting your little brother?

OoooOOOOooo, Gunner flames back! (Although I would only call my post an
observation rather than a flame, but I guess that proves its validity.)

BTW, you got something wrong. I'm the little brother in this family.

Tim

--
"I have misplaced my pants." - Homer Simpson | Electronics,
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - --+ Metalcasting
and Games: http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms

"A.Gent" writes:

"Liberal" to me means right-wing, conservative. (Aussies will
understand).

Europeans will, too. The Americans had to invent "libertarian" to
replace "liberal" after they changed the meaning of that word...

Language is fun! :-)

-tih
--
Tom Ivar Helbekkmo, Senior System Administrator, EUnet Norway
www.eunet.no T: +47-22092958 M: +47-93013940 F: +47-22092901

On Thu, 4 Mar 2004 21:46:06 +1100, "A.Gent"
wrote:


"Gunner" wrote in message
.. .
Glad to see you've updated your sig.

Jeff

Ill browse through the several dozen I have, until I find one that
****es you off, then lock it in for a while.


OK.
I can help here.
I'm Australian, so anything about "Democrats" or "Republicans" is of no interest and
certainly won't rankle. "Liberal" to me means right-wing, conservative. (Aussies will
understand).

Of course. In the US, the terms are reversed. Liberals are socialists.

I share your interest in (old, big?) machinery, so that's an unfortunate area in
common.

Why unfortunate? Even great minds can differ on some issues. Its one
fo the spices of life. If we all shared the same likes/dislikes..it
would be a terrribly boring and tedious world.

Ummmm....

I know!

I approve of gun control.
The stricter the better.

You wouldn't have anything on *that* would you?

(A long shot, I know, but I am trying to help here.)

Jeff

Hummm rummage rummage..lets see here....

Lets try this one

"Gun Control, the theory that a 110lb grandmother should
fist fight a 250lb 19yr old criminal"

Gunner

On Thu, 04 Mar 2004 19:20:11 +0100, Tom Ivar Helbekkmo
wrote:

"A.Gent" writes:

"Liberal" to me means right-wing, conservative. (Aussies will
understand).

Europeans will, too. The Americans had to invent "libertarian" to
replace "liberal" after they changed the meaning of that word...

Language is fun! :-)

-tih

Ah..no. Libertarian is a completly different term
http://www.csun.edu/~dgw61315/dgwlib.html#Liberals

Why do libertarians sometimes call themselves classical liberals?
In the 19th century, the term "liberal" generally meant someone who
favored individual liberty and opposed the expansion of state power.
In Europe and in much of the rest of the world, it still means that.

But in America, the term "liberal" was adopted by people who favored
extensive government intervention in the economy -- people who
elsewhere in the world would have been called progressives, social
democrats, or socialists.

Meanwhile, "conservative" continued to refer to people who favored
the use of state power for the preservation of certain religious and
cultural practices. The original liberals were thus left without a
label. People who still cleave to the ideal of individual liberty in
all spheres of life, like the 19th century liberals, now usually call
themselves either libertarians or classical liberals.


http://www.csun.edu/~dgw61315/dgwlib.html

What the heck is a libertarian?
I will offer three definitions:
1. The simple definition. A libertarian is someone who, in general,
supports government policies that favor individual liberty in all
matters, whether economic, personal, or social.

Libertarians are frequently characterized as "conservative on economic
issues and liberal on personal issues." That's not a bad definition,
but it's kind of like saying vodka is "half screwdriver and half white
Russian." It implies that libertarians are being inconsistent,
whereas in fact libertarianism is more consistent than either
conservatism or liberalism. I prefer to say, "Conservatives are
frequently libertarian on economic issues, and liberals are frequently
libertarian on personal issues." (I would also say that conservatives
are usually authoritarian on personal issues, and liberals are usually
authoritarian on economic issues.)

A list of policies that most libertarians support would include:
legalization of drugs, legalization of all consensual sexual acts
between consenting adults (including sodomy and prostitution),
abolition of government censorship in all its forms (including
restrictions on pornography), free trade, noninterventionist foreign
policy, abolition of rent control, abolition of the minimum wage,
abolition of farm and business subsidies, abolition of arts subsidies,
privatization of Social Security, abolition of welfare, and drastic
reduction of taxes.

For a decent indicator of whether you are a libertarian according to
the simple definition, take the World's Shortest Political Quiz.

2. The more complex, philosophical definition. A libertarian is
someone who, as a general rule, supports the non-aggression ethic (or
as some people call it, the non-aggression axiom, or NGA). The
non-aggression ethic holds, to quote David Boaz's Libertarianism: A
Primer, that "No one has the right to initiate aggression against the
person or property of anyone else."

Two phrases in this statement bear special emphasis. The first is
"initiation of aggression." Libertarians strongly support the right
of individuals to respond to aggression against them -- i.e., everyone
has the right of self defense. What libertarians oppose is the
initiation of force (or aggression) against others.

The second important phrase is "no one." Libertarians believe that no
means no. People do not acquire the right to initiate aggression
against others simply because they are agents of the state, or because
they get the majority of people to agree with them. The key issue is
not who uses aggression, but rather the purpose for which it is used.
Libertarians believe, for the most part, that aggression is only
justified if used to limit the initiation of aggression by others.

3. The crass political definition. A Libertarian (note the capital
L) is a member of the Libertarian Party, a national political party in
the United States. A libertarian and a Libertarian are not
necessarily the same thing, but in general, the LP advocates policies
that libertarians (small l) are likely to support.

The LP's official Statement of Principles says, "We hold that all
individuals have the right to exercise sole dominion over their own
lives, and have the right to live in whatever manner they choose, so
long as they do not forcibly interfere with the equal right of others
to live in whatever manner they choose." That's a pretty good a
statement of the motivating ideal behind libertarianism.


"Gun Control, the theory that a 110lb grandmother should
fist fight a 250lb 19yr old criminal"

"Gunner" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 04 Mar 2004 19:20:11 +0100, Tom Ivar Helbekkmo
wrote:

"A.Gent" writes:

"Liberal" to me means right-wing, conservative. (Aussies will
understand).

Europeans will, too. The Americans had to invent "libertarian" to
replace "liberal" after they changed the meaning of that word...

Language is fun! :-)

-tih

Ah..no. Libertarian is a completly different term
http://www.csun.edu/~dgw61315/dgwlib.html#Liberals

Jeez, that's a lot of words. It's much simpler if you define it in terms of
behavior. A libertarian is someone who opposes aggression against others,
unless they think the others may initiate aggression against them. This
opens the door for unlimited pre-emptive aggression, under the principle of
preventing pre-emptive aggression. ?

A libertarian is someone who favors legalizing psychotropic drugs, until a
drug taker goes nuts behind the wheel of a car and starts running people
over, at which time a good libertarian will shoot them. ?

Even simpler is their politics: A libertarian is someone who favors
individual liberty, which is why they vote for right-wing neo-fascists. ?

Libertarians are very confused people. g

Ed Huntress

No fair, that one is too recent. You have to come up with a new one...
Brian


"Gunner" wrote in message
Hummm rummage rummage..lets see here....

Lets try this one

"Gun Control, the theory that a 110lb grandmother should
fist fight a 250lb 19yr old criminal"

Gunner

On Thu, 4 Mar 2004 11:40:21 GMT, vaguely proposed a
theory
.......and in reply I say!:

Not necessary. I agree with you. As I said, I did not want to tell
anyone where to insert anything. I plonked the other post, because (a)
they did not snip, and posted only a rather vapid one-liner. (b)they
replied smartarse to me (c) I did provide some ideas to to their
question which they completely ignored in their haste to be a
smartarse.

Anyway. Mind your own business G

I will top post, bottom post and insert post as I see fit!! If you don't
like the way I'm living, plonk me.


Les

************************************************** ** sorry

..........no I'm not!
remove ns from my header address to reply via email

Spike....Spike? Hello?

On Thu, 4 Mar 2004 21:46:06 +1100, "A.Gent"
wrote:

I approve of gun control.
The stricter the better.

I most strongly agree, most automatic weapons absolutely demand a two
handed grip!
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada

On Thu, 4 Mar 2004 21:46:06 +1100, "A.Gent"
wrote:

I approve of gun control.
The stricter the better.


Gun control is being able to hit what you are shooting at. Nothing more,
nothing less.

Steve

On Thu, 4 Mar 2004 12:11:04 -0600, "Tim Williams"
wrote:

"Gunner" wrote in message
.. .
Still molesting your little brother?

OoooOOOOooo, Gunner flames back! (Although I would only call my post an
observation rather than a flame, but I guess that proves its validity.)

Id only call my post an observation as well. Seems to have gotten
your goat though.

BTW, you got something wrong. I'm the little brother in this family.

Tim

Hummm..your the little brother? That explains it. In another day, you
would have been the cabin boy..and all that that job involved...

Gunner

"Gun Control, the theory that a 110lb grandmother should
fist fight a 250lb 19yr old criminal"