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I may never "sharpen" a knife again (using a STeele)
last year i bot a cheapie HF sharpening grinder (with slow water
cooled 2"x8" wheel) worked fine, restored many edges over several weeks. then, after talking my brother, who worked in a slaughter house as a youth, i bot a decent steel (steele?). i have yet to use the grinder again (for kitchen knives). today was the real test, a couple of _really_ dull 6" cleavers that i missed last year. not wanting to set up the grinder for just two edges i tried just the steele. it did the job just fine. i just sliced some onion with each of them. go figure, too soon old, too late smart. --Loren p.s. just fyi, for newbies, i have "played" with steeles for years, never appreciating the results. there is some technique, and a decent steel is required. prior (dismal) attempts were with chrome plated (cheapie) models. |
I may never "sharpen" a knife again (using a STeele)
You probably bought one of those diamond coated steels. They're nice. We
have a butcher shop on our farm. We went from having our knives ground often to keeping our own knives sharp with the diamond coated. (well that's what they call it anyway....I doubt if there's diamond on it) Ivan "Loren A. Coe" wrote in message news:45U0c.96296$Xp.428508@attbi_s54... last year i bot a cheapie HF sharpening grinder (with slow water cooled 2"x8" wheel) worked fine, restored many edges over several weeks. then, after talking my brother, who worked in a slaughter house as a youth, i bot a decent steel (steele?). i have yet to use the grinder again (for kitchen knives). today was the real test, a couple of _really_ dull 6" cleavers that i missed last year. not wanting to set up the grinder for just two edges i tried just the steele. it did the job just fine. i just sliced some onion with each of them. go figure, too soon old, too late smart. --Loren p.s. just fyi, for newbies, i have "played" with steeles for years, never appreciating the results. there is some technique, and a decent steel is required. prior (dismal) attempts were with chrome plated (cheapie) models. |
I may never "sharpen" a knife again (using a STeele)
On Tue, 2 Mar 2004 01:33:58 -0600, "Ivan"
vaguely proposed a theory .......and in reply I say!: You probably bought one of those diamond coated steels. They're nice. We have a butcher shop on our farm. We went from having our knives ground often to keeping our own knives sharp with the diamond coated. (well that's what they call it anyway....I doubt if there's diamond on it) You would probably be wrong. Minute industrial grit. And yes they work amazingly well. For tools as well as knives. (Well, I have a grindstone of the same stuff, and I use the little "steels" on clippers etc.) Give a couple to your wife as earrings. "Here dear. I bought you some diamond earrings!" They _always_ know G ************************************************** ** sorry ..........no I'm not! remove ns from my header address to reply via email Spike....Spike? Hello? |
I may never "sharpen" a knife again (using a STeele)
"Loren A. Coe" wrote in message news:45U0c.96296$Xp.428508@attbi_s54...
last year i bot a cheapie HF sharpening grinder (with slow water cooled 2"x8" wheel) worked fine, restored many edges over several weeks. then, after talking my brother, who worked in a slaughter house as a youth, i bot a decent steel (steele?). i have yet to use the grinder again (for kitchen knives). today was the real test, a couple of _really_ dull 6" cleavers that i missed last year. not wanting to set up the grinder for just two edges i tried just the steele. it did the job just fine. i just sliced some onion with each of them. go figure, too soon old, too late smart. --Loren p.s. just fyi, for newbies, i have "played" with steeles for years, never appreciating the results. there is some technique, and a decent steel is required. prior (dismal) attempts were with chrome plated (cheapie) models. The old style steels were meant to straighten a turned edge and were not for metal removal. The new diamond ones are abrasive and remove metal. 2 different ways of operating |
I may never "sharpen" a knife again (using a STeele)
On Tue, 02 Mar 2004 16:56:08 +0800, Old Nick wrote:
|On Tue, 2 Mar 2004 01:33:58 -0600, "Ivan" |vaguely proposed a theory |......and in reply I say!: | |You probably bought one of those diamond coated steels. They're nice. We |have a butcher shop on our farm. We went from having our knives ground |often to keeping our own knives sharp with the diamond coated. (well that's |what they call it anyway....I doubt if there's diamond on it) | |You would probably be wrong. Minute industrial grit. And yes they work |amazingly well. For tools as well as knives. (Well, I have a |grindstone of the same stuff, and I use the little "steels" on |clippers etc.) OK, I'm convinced, and I'm tired of dull kitchen knives. Where does one buy a good steel, and how can you tell it's a good one? Rex in Fort Worth |
I may never "sharpen" a knife again (using a STeele)
Beecrofter wrote:
"Loren A. Coe" wrote in message news:45U0c.96296$Xp.428508@attbi_s54... last year i bot a cheapie HF sharpening grinder (with slow water cooled 2"x8" wheel) worked fine, restored many edges over several weeks. then, after talking my brother, who worked in a slaughter house as a youth, i bot a decent steel (steele?). i have yet to use the grinder again (for kitchen knives). today was the real test, a couple of _really_ dull 6" cleavers that i missed last year. not wanting to set up the grinder for just two edges i tried just the steele. it did the job just fine. i just sliced some onion with each of them. go figure, too soon old, too late smart. --Loren p.s. just fyi, for newbies, i have "played" with steeles for years, never appreciating the results. there is some technique, and a decent steel is required. prior (dismal) attempts were with chrome plated (cheapie) models. The old style steels were meant to straighten a turned edge and were not for metal removal. The new diamond ones are abrasive and remove metal. 2 different ways of operating yes, agreed. this is the old style, a Chicago 12", it may be stainless, but i don't know. it is only 8" of working surface, the fine longitudenal groves. these are sold seperately or with knife sets, made in China. WalMart carries the sets, Kohls carries the sets and the steels. if i were doing it again, i might be tempted for a nicer, longer one, but this one is quite handy for the length of edges i have. eventaully, i should end up with both. dunno about the diamond type, as you say, a different deal altogther, a newbie could probably do some real damage to an edge. another tip for novices, _patience_ is the key. talking to a butcher may help but you will see/get difference techniques for everyone you ask. also, the edge condition determines whether a steel can restore the edge and i advise to start looking at them under 10x or so and learn to recognize a good edge that is just dull. these two cleavers surprised me, i did look at them and they looked fairly nice, just dull. good luck, --Loren |
I may never "sharpen" a knife again (using a STeele)
In article Kp51c.165037$jk2.606971@attbi_s53, Loren A. Coe
wrote: Beecrofter wrote: "Loren A. Coe" wrote in message news:45U0c.96296$Xp.428508@attbi_s54... last year i bot a cheapie HF sharpening grinder (with slow water cooled 2"x8" wheel) worked fine, restored many edges over several weeks. then, after talking my brother, who worked in a slaughter house as a youth, i bot a decent steel (steele?). i have yet to use the grinder again (for kitchen knives). today was the real test, a couple of _really_ dull 6" cleavers that i missed last year. not wanting to set up the grinder for just two edges i tried just the steele. it did the job just fine. i just sliced some onion with each of them. go figure, too soon old, too late smart. --Loren p.s. just fyi, for newbies, i have "played" with steeles for years, never appreciating the results. there is some technique, and a decent steel is required. prior (dismal) attempts were with chrome plated (cheapie) models. The old style steels were meant to straighten a turned edge and were not for metal removal. The new diamond ones are abrasive and remove metal. 2 different ways of operating yes, agreed. this is the old style, a Chicago 12", it may be stainless, but i don't know. it is only 8" of working surface, the fine longitudenal groves. these are sold seperately or with knife sets, made in China. WalMart carries the sets, Kohls carries the sets and the steels. if i were doing it again, i might be tempted for a nicer, longer one, but this one is quite handy for the length of edges i have. eventaully, i should end up with both. dunno about the diamond type, as you say, a different deal altogther, a newbie could probably do some real damage to an edge. another tip for novices, _patience_ is the key. talking to a butcher may help but you will see/get difference techniques for everyone you ask. also, the edge condition determines whether a steel can restore the edge and i advise to start looking at them under 10x or so and learn to recognize a good edge that is just dull. these two cleavers surprised me, i did look at them and they looked fairly nice, just dull. good luck, --Loren I have 3 steels in a rack near my knives. A diamond steel for actual sharpening. A standard honing steel for regular maintenance. And a "Butcher's" Steel, a mirror finished glass hard rod of high carbon steel used to burnish the edge perfect. Use all 3 in succession and beware the tomato that dares offend me. |
I may never "sharpen" a knife again (using a STeele)
OK, I'm convinced, and I'm tired of dull kitchen knives. Where does one buy a good steel, and how can you tell it's a good one? AAguy at a county faair was selling a knife sharpener. Did damazing things with a mortar hoe, rusty knives, etc. Suddenly a light flashed... Now at garage sales if I find a rusty butcher knife, it'll soon be mine. That sort of iron seems to take a good (not long lasting) edge (slices paper-a test). It will also raise heck with a tomato. Paul in AJ AZ |
I may never "sharpen" a knife again (using a STeele)
"Ernie Leimkuhler" wrote in message ... In article Kp51c.165037$jk2.606971@attbi_s53, Loren A. Coe wrote: Beecrofter wrote: "Loren A. Coe" wrote in message news:45U0c.96296$Xp.428508@attbi_s54... last year i bot a cheapie HF sharpening grinder (with slow water cooled 2"x8" wheel) worked fine, restored many edges over several weeks. then, after talking my brother, who worked in a slaughter house as a youth, i bot a decent steel (steele?). i have yet to use the grinder again (for kitchen knives). today was the real test, a couple of _really_ dull 6" cleavers that i missed last year. not wanting to set up the grinder for just two edges i tried just the steele. it did the job just fine. i just sliced some onion with each of them. go figure, too soon old, too late smart. --Loren p.s. just fyi, for newbies, i have "played" with steeles for years, never appreciating the results. there is some technique, and a decent steel is required. prior (dismal) attempts were with chrome plated (cheapie) models. The old style steels were meant to straighten a turned edge and were not for metal removal. The new diamond ones are abrasive and remove metal. 2 different ways of operating yes, agreed. this is the old style, a Chicago 12", it may be stainless, but i don't know. it is only 8" of working surface, the fine longitudenal groves. these are sold seperately or with knife sets, made in China. WalMart carries the sets, Kohls carries the sets and the steels. if i were doing it again, i might be tempted for a nicer, longer one, but this one is quite handy for the length of edges i have. eventaully, i should end up with both. dunno about the diamond type, as you say, a different deal altogther, a newbie could probably do some real damage to an edge. another tip for novices, _patience_ is the key. talking to a butcher may help but you will see/get difference techniques for everyone you ask. also, the edge condition determines whether a steel can restore the edge and i advise to start looking at them under 10x or so and learn to recognize a good edge that is just dull. these two cleavers surprised me, i did look at them and they looked fairly nice, just dull. good luck, --Loren I have 3 steels in a rack near my knives. A diamond steel for actual sharpening. A standard honing steel for regular maintenance. And a "Butcher's" Steel, a mirror finished glass hard rod of high carbon steel used to burnish the edge perfect. Use all 3 in succession and beware the tomato that dares offend me. How much life can we expect from a diamond steel? |
I may never "sharpen" a knife again (using a STeele)
I have 3 steels in a rack near my knives. A diamond steel for actual sharpening. A standard honing steel for regular maintenance. And a "Butcher's" Steel, a mirror finished glass hard rod of high carbon steel used to burnish the edge perfect. Use all 3 in succession and beware the tomato that dares offend me. After I started putting the final hone on customers knives with a little green chromium oxide on a leather belt they can slice a tomato so thin it only has one side! |
I may never "sharpen" a knife again (using a STeele)
On Tue, 02 Mar 2004 19:58:39 GMT, Ernie Leimkuhler
vaguely proposed a theory .......and in reply I say!: This is roughly what I was going to say I have 3 steels in a rack near my knives. A diamond steel for actual sharpening. A standard honing steel for regular maintenance. And a "Butcher's" Steel, a mirror finished glass hard rod of high carbon steel used to burnish the edge perfect. Use all 3 in succession and beware the tomato that dares offend me. ************************************************** ** sorry ..........no I'm not! remove ns from my header address to reply via email Spike....Spike? Hello? |
I may never "sharpen" a knife again (using a STeele)
On Tue, 2 Mar 2004 14:28:47 -0600, "Ivan"
vaguely proposed a theory .......and in reply I say!: I hate to start a bottomposttoppost argument. But if you are going to bottom post, could do a _bit_ of snipping before your one-liner? How often are you going to use it? Most of them are diamonds embeddded in Nickel or other metal AFAIK. They last a long time. They make the job so easy they are worth it. You can _feel_ them biting. BTW. You don't need to get a greta long one. I use a little rectangular thing about 3cm wide and 8 cm long. I bought 3 grades for about $15. How much life can we expect from a diamond steel? ************************************************** ** sorry ..........no I'm not! remove ns from my header address to reply via email Spike....Spike? Hello? |
I may never "sharpen" a knife again (using a STeele)
After I started putting the final hone on customers knives with a
little green chromium oxide on a leather belt they can slice a tomato so thin it only has one side! I use green stuff too. When I go to check a knife by shaving my arm, the hairs jump off from fright. |
I may never "sharpen" a knife again (using a STeele)
|
I may never "sharpen" a knife again (using a STeele)
On Tue, 02 Mar 2004 19:09:15 GMT, (Rex B)
brought forth from the murky depths: OK, I'm convinced, and I'm tired of dull kitchen knives. Where does one buy a good steel, and how can you tell it's a good one? I use a DMT 600 grit diamond plate on both my wood/metalworking tool blades and knives. That's it for the kitchen knives, as they work better with a bit of bite. I ScarySharpen(tm) the shop blades with 1000 and 1500 grit wetordry sandpaper, then finish up with a strop. ..-. Better Living Through Denial --- http://www.diversify.com Wondrous Website Design |
snip
Yup. :)
if you bottom post, do snip |
I may never "sharpen" a knife again (using a STeele)
I have had mine for 12 years and it stIn article , Ivan wrote: "Ernie Leimkuhler" wrote in message ... In article Kp51c.165037$jk2.606971@attbi_s53, Loren A. Coe wrote: Beecrofter wrote: "Loren A. Coe" wrote in message snip another tip for novices, _patience_ is the key. talking to a butcher may help but you will see/get difference techniques for everyone you ask. also, the edge condition determines whether a steel can restore the edge and i advise to start looking at them under 10x or so and learn to recognize a good edge that is just dull. these two cleavers surprised me, i did look at them and they looked fairly nice, just dull. good luck, --Loren I have 3 steels in a rack near my knives. A diamond steel for actual sharpening. A standard honing steel for regular maintenance. And a "Butcher's" Steel, a mirror finished glass hard rod of high carbon steel used to burnish the edge perfect. Use all 3 in succession and beware the tomato that dares offend me. How much life can we expect from a diamond steel? I have had mine for 12 years and it still works fine |
I may never "sharpen" a knife again (using a STeele)
On Tue, 02 Mar 2004 19:58:39 GMT, Ernie Leimkuhler
vaguely proposed a theory .......and in reply I say!: Actually, the tomatoes have a problem. Isn't it the tomato that _pleases_ you that will see the sharp edge? G Use all 3 in succession and beware the tomato that dares offend me. ************************************************** ** sorry ..........no I'm not! remove ns from my header address to reply via email Spike....Spike? Hello? |
snip
On Tue, 2 Mar 2004 21:03:28 -0600, "Ivan"
vaguely proposed a theory .......and in reply I say!: plonk Yup. :) if you bottom post, do snip ************************************************** ** sorry ..........no I'm not! remove ns from my header address to reply via email Spike....Spike? Hello? |
I may never "sharpen" a knife again (using a STeele)
|
I may never "sharpen" a knife again (using a STeele)
Pep674 wrote:
OK, I'm convinced, and I'm tired of dull kitchen knives. Where does one buy a good steel, and how can you tell it's a good one? AAguy at a county faair was selling a knife sharpener. Did damazing things with a mortar hoe, rusty knives, etc. Suddenly a light flashed... Now at garage sales if I find a rusty butcher knife, it'll soon be mine. That sort of iron seems to take a good (not long lasting) edge (slices paper-a test). It will also raise heck with a tomato. Paul in AJ AZ From my experience, - my father-in-law's dad was a butcher - the steel is 1. long for a long slicing blade 2. isn't stainless steel. 3. is cut not stamped or rolled. If you ever had a wood scraper - and know how to square the end and then burnish it these thin slicing edges cut the wood nicely. On a steel, the pattern is long sharp but hard and firm - not cutting sharp. It shears metal off the knife blade with long arcing strokes. My late father-in-law sharpened in two ways - blade away from him and slicing away - Typically when he had to really take some metal off - due to a nick. But the way he did most sharpening was sharp blade coming down on either sides toward the hand that holds the handle. Nice to have a hand guard just in case the metal breaks or jumps off the steel. I think Steels were shaper cut - a machine like that - pulling the full length cutting the slot. Likely a die pull. A movable gripping type to contour to the tip. Martin -- Martin Eastburn, Barbara Eastburn @ home at Lion's Lair with our computer NRA LOH, NRA Life NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder |
I may never "sharpen" a knife again (using a STeele)
while I have a number of steels of all grades and types, I find myself
using Crock Sticks of various types for most of t he knives on my person or around the house. If its really bad, Ill drag out one of the Lansky sharpening sets and build a good edge, then finish with a crock stick My carry Kukri ,which is very very old, will shave arm hairs using this process. The Henkles (sp?) kitchen knives come out scary sharp Gunner The two highest achievements of the human mind are the twin concepts of "loyalty" and "duty." Whenever these twin concepts fall into disrepute -- get out of there fast! You may possibly save yourself, but it is too late to save that society. It is doomed. " Lazarus Long |
I may never "sharpen" a knife again (using a STeele)
"Gunner" wrote in message ... ... Gunner The two highest achievements of the human mind are the twin concepts of "loyalty" and "duty." Whenever these twin concepts fall into disrepute -- get out of there fast! You may possibly save yourself, but it is too late to save that society. It is doomed. " Lazarus Long Hey Gunner... Isn't it time for a new sig? I mean - its a bit sad quoting a fictional character who approved of and practised incest. Don't you think? Cheers Jeff |
I may never "sharpen" a Gunner again
"A.Gent" wrote in message
... I mean - its a bit sad quoting a fictional character who approved of and practised incest. Oh, since when did Gunner care about any oddities or atrocities his sig quotees ever did? He just picks what sounds good and accomplishes his purpose... Tim -- "I have misplaced my pants." - Homer Simpson | Electronics, - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - --+ Metalcasting and Games: http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms |
I may never "sharpen" a knife again (using a STeele)
On Wed, 3 Mar 2004 22:09:24 +1100, "A.Gent"
wrote: "Gunner" wrote in message .. . ... Gunner The two highest achievements of the human mind are the twin concepts of "loyalty" and "duty." Whenever these twin concepts fall into disrepute -- get out of there fast! You may possibly save yourself, but it is too late to save that society. It is doomed. " Lazarus Long Hey Gunner... Isn't it time for a new sig? Ill dig something up. I mean - its a bit sad quoting a fictional character who approved of and practised incest. Don't you think? Cheers Jeff You mean it wasnt constitutionally protected like same sex marraige? Gunner "The importance of morality is that people behave themselves even if nobody's watching. There are not enough cops and laws to replace personal morality as a means to produce a civilized society. Indeed, the police and criminal justice system are the last desperate line of defense for a civilized society. Unfortunately, too many of us see police, laws and the criminal justice system as society's first line of defense." --Walter Williams |
I may never "sharpen" a Gunner again
On Wed, 3 Mar 2004 12:25:03 -0600, "Tim Williams"
wrote: "A.Gent" wrote in message u... I mean - its a bit sad quoting a fictional character who approved of and practised incest. Oh, since when did Gunner care about any oddities or atrocities his sig quotees ever did? He just picks what sounds good and accomplishes his purpose... Tim Still molesting your little brother? Gunner The two highest achievements of the human mind are the twin concepts of "loyalty" and "duty." Whenever these twin concepts fall into disrepute -- get out of there fast! You may possibly save yourself, but it is too late to save that society. It is doomed. " Lazarus Long |
I may never "sharpen" a knife again (using a STeele)
"Gunner" wrote in message ... On Wed, 3 Mar 2004 22:09:24 +1100, "A.Gent" wrote: I mean - its a bit sad quoting a fictional character who approved of and practised incest. Don't you think? Cheers Jeff You mean it wasnt constitutionally protected like same sex marraige? Gunner I'm sorry, I don't understand your riposte. Are you equating incest with homosexuality? Are you defending incest? Never mind. It doesn't matter. Glad to see you've updated your sig. Jeff |
I may never "sharpen" a knife again (using a STeele)
On Thu, 4 Mar 2004 16:20:59 +1100, "A.Gent"
wrote: "Gunner" wrote in message .. . On Wed, 3 Mar 2004 22:09:24 +1100, "A.Gent" wrote: I mean - its a bit sad quoting a fictional character who approved of and practised incest. Don't you think? Cheers Jeff You mean it wasnt constitutionally protected like same sex marraige? Gunner I'm sorry, I don't understand your riposte. Somehow Im not surprised. Are you equating incest with homosexuality? Only in so far they are both Constitutionally protected. Are you defending incest? Should I be? Never mind. It doesn't matter. Indeed. Glad to see you've updated your sig. Jeff Ill browse through the several dozen I have, until I find one that ****es you off, then lock it in for a while. "The Democratic Party is the party of this popular corruption. The heart of the Democratic Party and its activist core is made up of government unions, government dependent professions (teachers, social workers, civil servants); special interest and special benefits groups (abortion rights, is a good example) that feed off the government trough; and ethnic constituencies, African Americans being the most prominent, who are disproportionately invested in government jobs and in programs that government provides. " The Democratic Party credo is 'Take as much of the people's money as politically feasible, and use that money to buy as many of the people's votes as possible'. Tax cuts are a threat to this Democratic agenda. Consequently, Democrats loathe and despise them." -Semi-reformed Leftist David Horowitz |
I may never "sharpen" a knife again (using a STeele)
"Gunner" wrote in message ... Glad to see you've updated your sig. Jeff Ill browse through the several dozen I have, until I find one that ****es you off, then lock it in for a while. OK. I can help here. I'm Australian, so anything about "Democrats" or "Republicans" is of no interest and certainly won't rankle. "Liberal" to me means right-wing, conservative. (Aussies will understand). I share your interest in (old, big?) machinery, so that's an unfortunate area in common. Ummmm.... I know! I approve of gun control. The stricter the better. You wouldn't have anything on *that* would you? (A long shot, I know, but I am trying to help here.) Jeff |
snip
I will top post, bottom post and insert post as I see fit!! If you don't
like the way I'm living, plonk me. Les |
I may never "sharpen" a Gunner again
"Gunner" wrote in message
... Still molesting your little brother? OoooOOOOooo, Gunner flames back! (Although I would only call my post an observation rather than a flame, but I guess that proves its validity.) BTW, you got something wrong. I'm the little brother in this family. ;) Tim -- "I have misplaced my pants." - Homer Simpson | Electronics, - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - --+ Metalcasting and Games: http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms |
I may never "sharpen" a knife again (using a STeele)
"A.Gent" writes:
"Liberal" to me means right-wing, conservative. (Aussies will understand). Europeans will, too. The Americans had to invent "libertarian" to replace "liberal" after they changed the meaning of that word... Language is fun! :-) -tih -- Tom Ivar Helbekkmo, Senior System Administrator, EUnet Norway www.eunet.no T: +47-22092958 M: +47-93013940 F: +47-22092901 |
I may never "sharpen" a knife again (using a STeele)
On Thu, 4 Mar 2004 21:46:06 +1100, "A.Gent"
wrote: "Gunner" wrote in message .. . Glad to see you've updated your sig. Jeff Ill browse through the several dozen I have, until I find one that ****es you off, then lock it in for a while. OK. I can help here. I'm Australian, so anything about "Democrats" or "Republicans" is of no interest and certainly won't rankle. "Liberal" to me means right-wing, conservative. (Aussies will understand). Of course. In the US, the terms are reversed. Liberals are socialists. I share your interest in (old, big?) machinery, so that's an unfortunate area in common. Why unfortunate? Even great minds can differ on some issues. Its one fo the spices of life. If we all shared the same likes/dislikes..it would be a terrribly boring and tedious world. Ummmm.... I know! I approve of gun control. The stricter the better. You wouldn't have anything on *that* would you? (A long shot, I know, but I am trying to help here.) Jeff Hummm rummage rummage..lets see here.... Lets try this one "Gun Control, the theory that a 110lb grandmother should fist fight a 250lb 19yr old criminal" Gunner |
I may never "sharpen" a knife again (using a STeele)
On Thu, 04 Mar 2004 19:20:11 +0100, Tom Ivar Helbekkmo
wrote: "A.Gent" writes: "Liberal" to me means right-wing, conservative. (Aussies will understand). Europeans will, too. The Americans had to invent "libertarian" to replace "liberal" after they changed the meaning of that word... Language is fun! :-) -tih Ah..no. Libertarian is a completly different term http://www.csun.edu/~dgw61315/dgwlib.html#Liberals Why do libertarians sometimes call themselves classical liberals? In the 19th century, the term "liberal" generally meant someone who favored individual liberty and opposed the expansion of state power. In Europe and in much of the rest of the world, it still means that. But in America, the term "liberal" was adopted by people who favored extensive government intervention in the economy -- people who elsewhere in the world would have been called progressives, social democrats, or socialists. Meanwhile, "conservative" continued to refer to people who favored the use of state power for the preservation of certain religious and cultural practices. The original liberals were thus left without a label. People who still cleave to the ideal of individual liberty in all spheres of life, like the 19th century liberals, now usually call themselves either libertarians or classical liberals. http://www.csun.edu/~dgw61315/dgwlib.html What the heck is a libertarian? I will offer three definitions: 1. The simple definition. A libertarian is someone who, in general, supports government policies that favor individual liberty in all matters, whether economic, personal, or social. Libertarians are frequently characterized as "conservative on economic issues and liberal on personal issues." That's not a bad definition, but it's kind of like saying vodka is "half screwdriver and half white Russian." It implies that libertarians are being inconsistent, whereas in fact libertarianism is more consistent than either conservatism or liberalism. I prefer to say, "Conservatives are frequently libertarian on economic issues, and liberals are frequently libertarian on personal issues." (I would also say that conservatives are usually authoritarian on personal issues, and liberals are usually authoritarian on economic issues.) A list of policies that most libertarians support would include: legalization of drugs, legalization of all consensual sexual acts between consenting adults (including sodomy and prostitution), abolition of government censorship in all its forms (including restrictions on pornography), free trade, noninterventionist foreign policy, abolition of rent control, abolition of the minimum wage, abolition of farm and business subsidies, abolition of arts subsidies, privatization of Social Security, abolition of welfare, and drastic reduction of taxes. For a decent indicator of whether you are a libertarian according to the simple definition, take the World's Shortest Political Quiz. 2. The more complex, philosophical definition. A libertarian is someone who, as a general rule, supports the non-aggression ethic (or as some people call it, the non-aggression axiom, or NGA). The non-aggression ethic holds, to quote David Boaz's Libertarianism: A Primer, that "No one has the right to initiate aggression against the person or property of anyone else." Two phrases in this statement bear special emphasis. The first is "initiation of aggression." Libertarians strongly support the right of individuals to respond to aggression against them -- i.e., everyone has the right of self defense. What libertarians oppose is the initiation of force (or aggression) against others. The second important phrase is "no one." Libertarians believe that no means no. People do not acquire the right to initiate aggression against others simply because they are agents of the state, or because they get the majority of people to agree with them. The key issue is not who uses aggression, but rather the purpose for which it is used. Libertarians believe, for the most part, that aggression is only justified if used to limit the initiation of aggression by others. 3. The crass political definition. A Libertarian (note the capital L) is a member of the Libertarian Party, a national political party in the United States. A libertarian and a Libertarian are not necessarily the same thing, but in general, the LP advocates policies that libertarians (small l) are likely to support. The LP's official Statement of Principles says, "We hold that all individuals have the right to exercise sole dominion over their own lives, and have the right to live in whatever manner they choose, so long as they do not forcibly interfere with the equal right of others to live in whatever manner they choose." That's a pretty good a statement of the motivating ideal behind libertarianism. "Gun Control, the theory that a 110lb grandmother should fist fight a 250lb 19yr old criminal" |
I may never "sharpen" a knife again (using a STeele)
"Gunner" wrote in message
... On Thu, 04 Mar 2004 19:20:11 +0100, Tom Ivar Helbekkmo wrote: "A.Gent" writes: "Liberal" to me means right-wing, conservative. (Aussies will understand). Europeans will, too. The Americans had to invent "libertarian" to replace "liberal" after they changed the meaning of that word... Language is fun! :-) -tih Ah..no. Libertarian is a completly different term http://www.csun.edu/~dgw61315/dgwlib.html#Liberals Jeez, that's a lot of words. It's much simpler if you define it in terms of behavior. A libertarian is someone who opposes aggression against others, unless they think the others may initiate aggression against them. This opens the door for unlimited pre-emptive aggression, under the principle of preventing pre-emptive aggression. ? A libertarian is someone who favors legalizing psychotropic drugs, until a drug taker goes nuts behind the wheel of a car and starts running people over, at which time a good libertarian will shoot them. ? Even simpler is their politics: A libertarian is someone who favors individual liberty, which is why they vote for right-wing neo-fascists. ? Libertarians are very confused people. g Ed Huntress |
I may never "sharpen" a knife again (using a STeele)
No fair, that one is too recent. You have to come up with a new one...
Brian "Gunner" wrote in message Hummm rummage rummage..lets see here.... Lets try this one "Gun Control, the theory that a 110lb grandmother should fist fight a 250lb 19yr old criminal" Gunner |
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I may never "sharpen" a knife again (using a STeele)
On Thu, 4 Mar 2004 21:46:06 +1100, "A.Gent"
wrote: I approve of gun control. The stricter the better. I most strongly agree, most automatic weapons absolutely demand a two handed grip! Gerry :-)} London, Canada |
I may never "sharpen" a knife again (using a STeele)
On Thu, 4 Mar 2004 21:46:06 +1100, "A.Gent"
wrote: I approve of gun control. The stricter the better. Gun control is being able to hit what you are shooting at. Nothing more, nothing less. Steve |
I may never "sharpen" a Gunner again
On Thu, 4 Mar 2004 12:11:04 -0600, "Tim Williams"
wrote: "Gunner" wrote in message .. . Still molesting your little brother? OoooOOOOooo, Gunner flames back! (Although I would only call my post an observation rather than a flame, but I guess that proves its validity.) Id only call my post an observation as well. Seems to have gotten your goat though. BTW, you got something wrong. I'm the little brother in this family. ;) Tim Hummm..your the little brother? That explains it. In another day, you would have been the cabin boy..and all that that job involved... Gunner "Gun Control, the theory that a 110lb grandmother should fist fight a 250lb 19yr old criminal" |
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