Last nite the kid comes upstairs from the garage and asks me to show him
how to make a double flare an some 3/16" steel brake tubing he's
patching up his '95 Honda Civic with.

It's been maybe 20 years since I made a double flare, so I Googled up a
nice set of photos for him which showed how far the tubing should
project from the tool when starting out. (By using the thickness of the
base of the "first stage" button die as a gage.)

All I own is an old single flare tool from copper tubing days, so the
kid had borrowed a double flaring tool from Auto Zone when he picked up
the tubing and fittings he needed.

The tool looked brand new, but had the earmarks of being a cheap import.
There was no recognizable brand name on it or it's spotlessly clean red
plastic box, and no instruction sheet with it. But it looked just like
the tool I remembered making double flares with a long time ago.

I thought it would be a snap to make the first flare for the son and let
him do the rest, but 'twas not to be.

No matter how hard I tightened the clamping screws, even using some
leverage on them, the tubing slipped through that #$%^$#@ clamp every
time I tried to make the first stage flare. I cut back the tubing a
couple of times after a failed try, thinking a fresh start would help. I
even tried degreasing the tubing and the tool's jaws with acetone. That
didn't work either. (This morning I thought that maybe I should have
tried putting a little emery powder in the jaws, but I'm keeping my
hands off that project until I get over tha agony of defeat.)

Yes, the tubing miked at .178"-181" and the tool's clamp hole was
labeled 3/16". The tubing didn't feel extra hard or too soft, so was it
me or the tool?

Try as I could, I couldn't make even one flare for the kid, and it took
some will power to avoid flinging that tool, box and all, into the woods
behind the house. Only the thought of the $20 deposit he'd left at Auto
Zone stopped me.

When I eyeballed the serrations in the tool's clamp hole they looked
lousy and were hardly file tooth sharp. They looked more like I'd expect
to see on a tool that already had lots of flares under its belt.

I think I probably should have tacked this message on as a reply to one
of the "Are HF tools any good?" threads, cause it sure seems like it had
to be the tool, not me, that defeated me last night.

Did I miss anyting? Is there something particularly difficult about
using a double flare tool on 3/16' steel tubing, or some trick which has
to be used to keep the tubing from slipping through the clamp.

Or, am I correct in blaming my abject failure on a cheap copy of a
traditional tool design, which when made with proper materials and
techniques, has stood the test of time.

I told the kid to bite the bullet and buy a brand new preformed brake
line from a Honda dealer or see if he can get lucky at an auto recycler.
The original Honda tubing has a pretty heavy plastic sheathing on it
too, which looks like it's there to help avoid corrosion, so it might be
best to use that instead of naked steel anyway.

Thanks guys,

Jeff
--
Jeffry Wisnia

(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"Truth exists; only falsehood has to be invented."

When you got to this line:

The tool looked brand new, but had the earmarks of being a cheap
import.

I knew then you were going to have problems without reading the rest.
I've never had luck getting a cheap import to work for flaring copper
tubing (especially double flares). I made the mistake of buying one of
these pieces of crap once. I had the same problem as you...the tubing
not staying put. I finally found a decent tool at work and that one
worked great.

Mike

Recently had the same challenge, to make up a line with double flare on each
end. Bought the tubing from local Canadian Tyre and borrowed their flaring
tool (cheap import type). Cut the tube square with a hacksaw, filed the end
dead square using the back face of the clamping bars as a guide, removed the
burr from inside of brake line, VERY IMPORTANT filed a healthy bevel on the
outside of the line, clamped the line using the clamp bolts THEN clamped
again in a bench vise, ran the die in, removed the die and ran in the cone.
Perfect first try.
Important points - no tubing cutters - work hardens the tube/pipe/line.
Dead square end, no burrs.
Large bevel on outer edge of line/pipe/tube.
Extra clamping.
A little lube - and good luck.

Try again, the kid will appreciate it, and you are his best teacher.
Ray
"mj" wrote in message
ps.com...
When you got to this line:

The tool looked brand new, but had the earmarks of being a cheap
import.

I knew then you were going to have problems without reading the rest.
I've never had luck getting a cheap import to work for flaring copper
tubing (especially double flares). I made the mistake of buying one of
these pieces of crap once. I had the same problem as you...the tubing
not staying put. I finally found a decent tool at work and that one
worked great.

Mike

"Jeff Wisnia" wrote in message
...
The tool looked brand new, but had the earmarks of being a cheap import.
There was no recognizable brand name on it or it's spotlessly clean red
plastic box, and no instruction sheet with it. But it looked just like
the tool I remembered making double flares with a long time ago.

I sure can't see your double flaring tool, but the Taiwanese single flaring
tool I have has an eccentric bolt on the handle pivot. There's a roller on
the handle that closes the dies. Adjusting the eccentric bolt determines how
much clamping pressure is put on the dies. Maybe just a tweak with a wrench
might have got the borrowed tool working.
No matter how hard I tightened the clamping screws,

Nevermind said Roseanne roseanna-danna. you had a different type of tool.

I told the kid to bite the bullet and buy a brand new preformed brake
line from a Honda dealer or see if he can get lucky at an auto recycler.
The original Honda tubing has a pretty heavy plastic sheathing on it
too, which looks like it's there to help avoid corrosion, so it might be
best to use that instead of naked steel anyway
..
I would have politely told the guys at Auto-Zone what a POS tool it was and
asked for a good one. I have used their tools several times and really like
this service. If they didn't have one I would have spent the bucks on a good
quality tool rather than a factory part.
Tom

Thanks guys,

Jeff
--
Jeffry Wisnia

(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"Truth exists; only falsehood has to be invented."

"Jeff Wisnia" wrote in message
...
Last nite the kid comes upstairs from the garage and asks me to show him
how to make a double flare an some 3/16" steel brake tubing he's patching
up his '95 Honda Civic with.

It's been maybe 20 years since I made a double flare, so I Googled up a
nice set of photos for him which showed how far the tubing should project
from the tool when starting out. (By using the thickness of the base of
the "first stage" button die as a gage.)

All I own is an old single flare tool from copper tubing days, so the kid
had borrowed a double flaring tool from Auto Zone when he picked up the
tubing and fittings he needed.

The tool looked brand new, but had the earmarks of being a cheap import.
There was no recognizable brand name on it or it's spotlessly clean red
plastic box, and no instruction sheet with it. But it looked just like the
tool I remembered making double flares with a long time ago.

I thought it would be a snap to make the first flare for the son and let
him do the rest, but 'twas not to be.

No matter how hard I tightened the clamping screws, even using some
leverage on them, the tubing slipped through that #$%^$#@ clamp every time
I tried to make the first stage flare. I cut back the tubing a couple of
times after a failed try, thinking a fresh start would help. I even tried
degreasing the tubing and the tool's jaws with acetone. That didn't work
either. (This morning I thought that maybe I should have tried putting a
little emery powder in the jaws, but I'm keeping my hands off that project
until I get over tha agony of defeat.)

Yes, the tubing miked at .178"-181" and the tool's clamp hole was labeled
3/16". The tubing didn't feel extra hard or too soft, so was it me or the
tool?

Try as I could, I couldn't make even one flare for the kid, and it took
some will power to avoid flinging that tool, box and all, into the woods
behind the house. Only the thought of the $20 deposit he'd left at Auto
Zone stopped me.

When I eyeballed the serrations in the tool's clamp hole they looked lousy
and were hardly file tooth sharp. They looked more like I'd expect to see
on a tool that already had lots of flares under its belt.

I think I probably should have tacked this message on as a reply to one of
the "Are HF tools any good?" threads, cause it sure seems like it had to
be the tool, not me, that defeated me last night.

Did I miss anyting? Is there something particularly difficult about using
a double flare tool on 3/16' steel tubing, or some trick which has to be
used to keep the tubing from slipping through the clamp.

Or, am I correct in blaming my abject failure on a cheap copy of a
traditional tool design, which when made with proper materials and
techniques, has stood the test of time.

I told the kid to bite the bullet and buy a brand new preformed brake line
from a Honda dealer or see if he can get lucky at an auto recycler. The
original Honda tubing has a pretty heavy plastic sheathing on it too,
which looks like it's there to help avoid corrosion, so it might be best
to use that instead of naked steel anyway.

Thanks guys,

Jeff
--
Jeffry Wisnia

(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"Truth exists; only falsehood has to be invented."

I had to use one of these imported POS flaring tools to make several double
flares and I had the same problem with the tubing not being clamped
properly. In desperation I used a Vicegrip pliers to assist in clamping the
tube. It worked but what a pain in the a**. Try as I might to find an
American made or other quality flaring tool in our town of three hardware
and three auto part stores was to no avail. I was told that no one would buy
them if they would stock a quality tool.
Steve

I think I might have tried wrapping the tube with a cigarette paper if it
slipped that bad on me. Or two, or three. They ain't as cheap as they used to
be, but the old Zig-zags come in real handy every now and then in the shop.

GWE

its me wrote:

"Jeff Wisnia" wrote in message
...

Last nite the kid comes upstairs from the garage and asks me to show him
how to make a double flare an some 3/16" steel brake tubing he's patching
up his '95 Honda Civic with.

It's been maybe 20 years since I made a double flare, so I Googled up a
nice set of photos for him which showed how far the tubing should project
from the tool when starting out. (By using the thickness of the base of
the "first stage" button die as a gage.)

All I own is an old single flare tool from copper tubing days, so the kid
had borrowed a double flaring tool from Auto Zone when he picked up the
tubing and fittings he needed.

The tool looked brand new, but had the earmarks of being a cheap import.
There was no recognizable brand name on it or it's spotlessly clean red
plastic box, and no instruction sheet with it. But it looked just like the
tool I remembered making double flares with a long time ago.

I thought it would be a snap to make the first flare for the son and let
him do the rest, but 'twas not to be.

No matter how hard I tightened the clamping screws, even using some
leverage on them, the tubing slipped through that #$%^$#@ clamp every time
I tried to make the first stage flare. I cut back the tubing a couple of
times after a failed try, thinking a fresh start would help. I even tried
degreasing the tubing and the tool's jaws with acetone. That didn't work
either. (This morning I thought that maybe I should have tried putting a
little emery powder in the jaws, but I'm keeping my hands off that project
until I get over tha agony of defeat.)

Yes, the tubing miked at .178"-181" and the tool's clamp hole was labeled
3/16". The tubing didn't feel extra hard or too soft, so was it me or the
tool?

Try as I could, I couldn't make even one flare for the kid, and it took
some will power to avoid flinging that tool, box and all, into the woods
behind the house. Only the thought of the $20 deposit he'd left at Auto
Zone stopped me.

When I eyeballed the serrations in the tool's clamp hole they looked lousy
and were hardly file tooth sharp. They looked more like I'd expect to see
on a tool that already had lots of flares under its belt.

I think I probably should have tacked this message on as a reply to one of
the "Are HF tools any good?" threads, cause it sure seems like it had to
be the tool, not me, that defeated me last night.

Did I miss anyting? Is there something particularly difficult about using
a double flare tool on 3/16' steel tubing, or some trick which has to be
used to keep the tubing from slipping through the clamp.

Or, am I correct in blaming my abject failure on a cheap copy of a
traditional tool design, which when made with proper materials and
techniques, has stood the test of time.

I told the kid to bite the bullet and buy a brand new preformed brake line
from a Honda dealer or see if he can get lucky at an auto recycler. The
original Honda tubing has a pretty heavy plastic sheathing on it too,
which looks like it's there to help avoid corrosion, so it might be best
to use that instead of naked steel anyway.

Thanks guys,

Jeff
--
Jeffry Wisnia

(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"Truth exists; only falsehood has to be invented."


I had to use one of these imported POS flaring tools to make several double
flares and I had the same problem with the tubing not being clamped
properly. In desperation I used a Vicegrip pliers to assist in clamping the
tube. It worked but what a pain in the a**. Try as I might to find an
American made or other quality flaring tool in our town of three hardware
and three auto part stores was to no avail. I was told that no one would buy
them if they would stock a quality tool.
Steve

Ray Field wrote:

Recently had the same challenge, to make up a line with double flare on each
end. Bought the tubing from local Canadian Tyre and borrowed their flaring
tool (cheap import type). Cut the tube square with a hacksaw, filed the end
dead square using the back face of the clamping bars as a guide, removed the
burr from inside of brake line, VERY IMPORTANT filed a healthy bevel on the
outside of the line, clamped the line using the clamp bolts THEN clamped
again in a bench vise, ran the die in, removed the die and ran in the cone.
Perfect first try.
Important points - no tubing cutters - work hardens the tube/pipe/line.
Dead square end, no burrs.
Large bevel on outer edge of line/pipe/tube.
Extra clamping.
A little lube - and good luck.


All good points, and they included a couple I didn't know about.

I didn't mention that first end I was trying to flair was under the
hood. There was enough room to fit in the tool and operate it, but
'twarnt a piece of cake.

As it happened I didn't use a tubing cutter, but not because I was smart
enough to think about work hardening, there just wasn't enough room to
swing a full sized one around all the way and my mini tubing cutter was
out on loan. I cut the tubing end off square with a cutting disk in a
Dremel and deburred the center of the tubing with the point of a three
edge scraper and the outside with coarse emery paper.

The web page "how to" on double flaring I'd Googled up:

http://www.carcraft.com/howto/50919/

didn't say anything about beveling the outside of the tube, but that
makes sense now.

I couldn't do much about adding any additional clamping where I was
working and from what I could see the two clamp bars were kissing each
other already. Maybe the tubing being a few thou below 3/16" had
something to do with it, but from what I've read on this thread so far,
it prolly wasn't all my fault.

Probably that side clamping screw in the yoke of the tool set on the web
page referenced above would have helped a lot.

Looking around, the name brand double flaring sets cost around $100 and
the POS import ones can be got for less than $20. Cheap is cheap.


Try again, the kid will appreciate it, and you are his best teacher.
Ray


What happened to "Experience is the best teacher" and "Learn from
mistakes." (If I'm going to learn from mistakes I prefere they be
other's mistakes G)

I've no doubt that given the right tools we could make decent double
flares, but there's something comforting about putting a factory part
into something as critical as the brakes on a car your kid's driving.
That's the way I'm gonna go on this one.

Thanks guys,

Jeff


--
Jeffry Wisnia

(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"Truth exists; only falsehood has to be invented."

In , on 01/12/06
at 12:55 PM, "its me" said:


"Jeff Wisnia" wrote in message
SNIP
No matter how hard I tightened the clamping screws, even using some
leverage on them, the tubing slipped through that #$%^$#@ clamp every time
I tried to make the first stage flare. I cut back the tubing a couple of
times after a failed try, thinking a fresh start would help. I even tried
degreasing the tubing and the tool's jaws with acetone. That didn't work
either. (This morning I thought that maybe I should have tried putting a
little emery powder in the jaws, but I'm keeping my hands off that project
until I get over tha agony of defeat.)



I had to use one of these imported POS flaring tools to make several double
flares and I had the same problem with the tubing not being clamped
properly. In desperation I used a Vicegrip pliers to assist in clamping the
tube. It worked but what a pain in the a**. Try as I might to find an
American made or other quality flaring tool in our town of three hardware
and three auto part stores was to no avail. I was told that no one would buy
them if they would stock a quality tool.
Steve

I think these cheapo tools are designed only for copper pipes. Yeah - I
had the same problem, only I was trying to use the tool on a brakeline in
the car! The line would have been a pig to disconnect from the master
cylinder, so I cut the line & replaced the corroded section. It was (when
are they not?) a rush job , so HAD to be done that night. After about 5
attempts & trying to anneal the pipe end, all of which failed misreably, I
was running short of room to fit the tool on the pipe, so something had to
be done.
I ended up by cutting a small piece of 600 grit wet & dry exactly to the
circumference of the pipe. Sandwiching this (grit side toward the pipe)
inside the clamp jaws enabled me to do the flare first try.

-----------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------

On Thu, 12 Jan 2006 18:11:00 GMT, "Tom Wait"
wrote:


.
I would have politely told the guys at Auto-Zone what a POS tool it was and
asked for a good one. I have used their tools several times and really like
this service. If they didn't have one I would have spent the bucks on a good
quality tool rather than a factory part.
Tom

Thanks guys,

Jeff
--
Jeffry Wisnia

(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"Truth exists; only falsehood has to be invented."

Try to FIND a good, quality double flair tool in most towns or cities
across the USA or Canada. They don't exist anymore, because they "cost
too much". Yea, right! Ten cents is too much for one that doesn't
work.

clare at snyder.on.ca wrote in message
...
On Thu, 12 Jan 2006 18:11:00 GMT, "Tom Wait"
wrote:


.
I would have politely told the guys at Auto-Zone what a POS tool it was
and
asked for a good one. I have used their tools several times and really
like
this service. If they didn't have one I would have spent the bucks on a
good
quality tool rather than a factory part.
Tom

Thanks guys,

Jeff
--
Jeffry Wisnia

(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"Truth exists; only falsehood has to be invented."

Try to FIND a good, quality double flair tool in most towns or cities
across the USA or Canada. They don't exist anymore, because they "cost
too much". Yea, right! Ten cents is too much for one that doesn't
work.
My snapon set was close to $200, 20 years latter it still works first try.
Cheap tools are false economy, and good only for cheap tools.
Pat

FWIW, the last time I had any need to double flair was about 20 yrs ago
when I was rebuilding an old XKE. I don't remember ANY problems, but I
had an American made flair kit. I still have it some where out in the
shop. Think I might have to go out and dig it up and see what brand it
was just out ot curiosity.
Bill.

On 12 Jan 2006 17:15:25 -0800, wrote:

FWIW, the last time I had any need to double flair was about 20 yrs ago
when I was rebuilding an old XKE. I don't remember ANY problems, but I
had an American made flair kit. I still have it some where out in the
shop. Think I might have to go out and dig it up and see what brand it
was just out ot curiosity.
Bill.
And on an "E" type you didn't double flare - you bell (or bubble)
flared, if my memory serves me correctly. The double flair kit I used
for many years was a "blue point" made in the late forties.It did
single, "bubble", and double flares.

I think the tools from Inlinetube.com are likely of pretty decent
quality.
The KD2190 is a good heavy duty unit, with a price to match.
A Rothenberger set will serve you well too, but IIRC they are also
pretty pricey.They are used by a lot of AC and refrigeration guys -
might not work well on hard (like stainless) lines.
If you need to make a couple hundred, get a Samson 800.

"Jeff Wisnia" wrote in message
...
| Last nite the kid comes upstairs from the garage and asks me to show him
| how to make a double flare an some 3/16" steel brake tubing he's
| patching up his '95 Honda Civic with.

This may sound like a silly question, but why is he using inch sized
fittings on a metric car? Isn't everything metric, including the tubing and
fittings?

Very not recommended but I have repaired many brake lines using
compression fittings and flexible brake line tubing..
Never had a single leak or defect.

In article
et,
"carl mciver" wrote:

"Jeff Wisnia" wrote in message
...
| Last nite the kid comes upstairs from the garage and asks me to show him
| how to make a double flare an some 3/16" steel brake tubing he's
| patching up his '95 Honda Civic with.

This may sound like a silly question, but why is he using inch sized
fittings on a metric car? Isn't everything metric, including the tubing and
fittings?

Not silly.

The metric equivalent works out to be 3/16"
(4.75mm IIRC)

And on an "E" type you didn't double flare - you bell (or bubble)
flared, if my memory serves me correctly. The double flair kit I used
for many years was a "blue point" made in the late forties.It did
single, "bubble", and double flares.
Duh....slap....your right, memory is hazy.
Bill

On Thu, 12 Jan 2006 12:25:06 -0500, Jeff Wisnia
wrote:

Last nite the kid comes upstairs from the garage and asks me to show him
how to make a double flare an some 3/16" steel brake tubing he's
patching up his '95 Honda Civic with.



A bit late now, but why use steel instead of Monel or copper?


Mark Rand
RTFM

"daniel peterman" wrote in message
...
Very not recommended but I have repaired many brake lines using
compression fittings and flexible brake line tubing..
Never had a single leak or defect.



I would not have a problem with a quality compression fitting like a
Swagelok. It is certainly as good as a flared fitting provided it is
installed properly.

Randy

"Mark Rand" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 12 Jan 2006 12:25:06 -0500, Jeff Wisnia
wrote:

Last nite the kid comes upstairs from the garage and asks me to show him
how to make a double flare an some 3/16" steel brake tubing he's
patching up his '95 Honda Civic with.



A bit late now, but why use steel instead of Monel or copper?


Mark Rand
RTFM

Monel would probably be OK except for the cost. Copper work-hardens by the
repeated deformation produced by the brake pressure pulses and would crack
in a short time.

Randy

On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 12:37:54 -0600, "R. O'Brian"
wrote:

Copper work-hardens by the
repeated deformation produced by the brake pressure pulses and would crack
in a short time.

Randy

This, I discovered with the rocker arm oiler kit installed on my '57
Ford 272.
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada

Last nite the kid comes upstairs from the garage and asks me to show him
how to make a double flare an some 3/16" steel brake tubing he's
patching up his '95 Honda Civic with.

It's been maybe 20 years since I made a double flare, so I Googled up a
nice set of photos for him which showed how far the tubing should
project from the tool when starting out. (By using the thickness of the
base of the "first stage" button die as a gage.)

All I own is an old single flare tool from copper tubing days, so the
kid had borrowed a double flaring tool from Auto Zone when he picked up
the tubing and fittings he needed.

The tool looked brand new, but had the earmarks of being a cheap import.
There was no recognizable brand name on it or it's spotlessly clean red
plastic box, and no instruction sheet with it. But it looked just like
the tool I remembered making double flares with a long time ago.

I thought it would be a snap to make the first flare for the son and let
him do the rest, but 'twas not to be.

No matter how hard I tightened the clamping screws, even using some
leverage on them, the tubing slipped through that #$%^$#@ clamp every
time I tried to make the first stage flare. I cut back the tubing a
couple of times after a failed try, thinking a fresh start would help. I
even tried degreasing the tubing and the tool's jaws with acetone. That
didn't work either. (This morning I thought that maybe I should have
tried putting a little emery powder in the jaws, but I'm keeping my
hands off that project until I get over tha agony of defeat.)

Yes, the tubing miked at .178"-181" and the tool's clamp hole was
labeled 3/16". The tubing didn't feel extra hard or too soft, so was it
me or the tool?

Try as I could, I couldn't make even one flare for the kid, and it took
some will power to avoid flinging that tool, box and all, into the woods
behind the house. Only the thought of the $20 deposit he'd left at Auto
Zone stopped me.

When I eyeballed the serrations in the tool's clamp hole they looked
lousy and were hardly file tooth sharp. They looked more like I'd expect
to see on a tool that already had lots of flares under its belt.

I think I probably should have tacked this message on as a reply to one
of the "Are HF tools any good?" threads, cause it sure seems like it had
to be the tool, not me, that defeated me last night.

Did I miss anyting? Is there something particularly difficult about
using a double flare tool on 3/16' steel tubing, or some trick which has
to be used to keep the tubing from slipping through the clamp.

Or, am I correct in blaming my abject failure on a cheap copy of a
traditional tool design, which when made with proper materials and
techniques, has stood the test of time.

I told the kid to bite the bullet and buy a brand new preformed brake
line from a Honda dealer or see if he can get lucky at an auto recycler.
The original Honda tubing has a pretty heavy plastic sheathing on it
too, which looks like it's there to help avoid corrosion, so it might be
best to use that instead of naked steel anyway.

Thanks guys,

Jeff
--
Jeffry Wisnia

(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"Truth exists; only falsehood has to be invented."
Only good double flaring tool will be an antique... The new stuff is
all junk - the little inserts do not fit the inside of the tubing good
enough to prevent wobble and "canted" flares. I tried one - returned
it, ended up doing just single flares as I could not find a double
tool that would work. I guess a guy could make a few "inserts" to fit
properly. (this would also probably stop the "slipping" problem as
the inside of the tubing would be supported during the clamping
process. HTH
Ken.

"Truth exists; only falsehood has to be invented."
Only good double flaring tool will be an antique... The new stuff is
all junk - the little inserts do not fit the inside of the tubing good
enough to prevent wobble and "canted" flares. I tried one - returned
it, ended up doing just single flares as I could not find a double
tool that would work. I guess a guy could make a few "inserts" to fit
properly. (this would also probably stop the "slipping" problem as
the inside of the tubing would be supported during the clamping
process. HTH
Ken.
Except the "insert" is not where the metal is clamped. If it was, it
could not move, and you could not flare the tube.
I sure hope that single flare was NOT on a brake line!!!!!!!!!

On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 18:40:34 -0500, Gerald Miller
wrote:

On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 12:37:54 -0600, "R. O'Brian"
wrote:

Copper work-hardens by the
repeated deformation produced by the brake pressure pulses and would crack
in a short time.

Randy

This, I discovered with the rocker arm oiler kit installed on my '57
Ford 272.
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada


This I discovered when I bought my first car..a Rambler station wagon.
The previous owner had replaced the break lines with copper tubing.

I discovered the problem with copper tubing one afternoon at a red
light in Gaylord, Michigan, when I stomped on the brake pedal..and
there was a pop- Floosh noise from the rear of the car..and the old
bitch kept right on steaming into the intersection where I T-boned a
66 Mustang painted white with black spots. The state trooper followed
the twin lines of break fluid down the block about 150 feet. He said I
must have been pumping like a son of a bitch to have pumped the system
dry.

I had that car about a week. I got an $18 ticked for failure to stop
at a red light..the previous owner got to pay for the repairs to the
mustang...or have every state trooper in the area bird dog his ass the
moment he put key into the ignition.

First and only accident I have had in about 3,000,000 miles of driving
(lighting a candle, saying a prayer, spinning a prayer wheel, while
rubbing a rabbits foot and munching on a 4 leaf clover)


Gunner

The aim of untold millions is to be free to do exactly as they choose
and for someone else to pay when things go wrong.

In the past few decades, a peculiar and distinctive psychology
has emerged in England. Gone are the civility, sturdy independence,
and admirable stoicism that carried the English through the war years
.. It has been replaced by a constant whine of excuses, complaints,
and special pleading. The collapse of the British character has been
as swift and complete as the collapse of British power.

Theodore Dalrymple,

In article 1sSxf.106$NE.26@dukeread12, R. O'Brian says...

Monel would probably be OK except for the cost. Copper work-hardens by the
repeated deformation produced by the brake pressure pulses and would crack
in a short time.

Copper is illegal on brake systems. Likewise compression (olive)
type fittings because they can blow out.

Copper is also unwise on vehicles for oil or fuel systems. It work
hardens and can fracture unexpectedly.

This is one way you can tell restored vehicles that are hanger
queens. All that polished-up copper tubing for the fuel and
oil lines. Looks real pretty.

Jim


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==================================================
please reply to:
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==================================================

Gunner wrote:



This I discovered when I bought my first car..a Rambler station wagon.
The previous owner had replaced the break lines with copper tubing.


That's one time a slight misspelling predicts the remainder of the
story. G

I too remember those pre-dual brake system days.

As a matter of fact, with the first car I ever owned* I didn't need to
worry about burst brake lines.

It was a Ford Model A from the thirties, and had four wheel mechanical
brakes. It was also the easiest damn car to work on I ever had, you
could do practically everything with just an adjustable wrench, a
screwdriver and sometimes a BFH.

Jeff

* Slight mistatement, I actually only owned half of it, my high school
buddy Pete owned the other half. AFAICR my half was the one which needed
fixin' by me and his half as the one he did unmentionable things to
girls in while "parking" at Inspiration Point in San Francisco.

Thanks for the mammaries...

--
Jeffry Wisnia

(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"Truth exists; only falsehood has to be invented."

clare at snyder.on.ca wrote:

"Truth exists; only falsehood has to be invented."

Only good double flaring tool will be an antique... The new stuff is
all junk - the little inserts do not fit the inside of the tubing good
enough to prevent wobble and "canted" flares. I tried one - returned
it, ended up doing just single flares as I could not find a double
tool that would work. I guess a guy could make a few "inserts" to fit
properly. (this would also probably stop the "slipping" problem as
the inside of the tubing would be supported during the clamping
process. HTH
Ken.

Except the "insert" is not where the metal is clamped. If it was, it
could not move, and you could not flare the tube.
I sure hope that single flare was NOT on a brake line!!!!!!!!!

And, to add a bit more insult to injury, the insert's peg must be
smaller than the ID of the tubing else you couldn't very well form that
first stage "hollow point bullet" shape with it, 'eh?

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia

(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"Truth exists; only falsehood has to be invented."

On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 13:22:37 -0500, Jeff Wisnia
wrote:


As a matter of fact, with the first car I ever owned* I didn't need to
worry about burst brake lines.

It was a Ford Model A from the thirties, and had four wheel mechanical
brakes. It was also the easiest damn car to work on I ever had, you
could do practically everything with just an adjustable wrench, a
screwdriver and sometimes a BFH.

I spent the morning before my one and only driver's test replacing the
brake rods on the family car.
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada

In article , Jeff Wisnia says...

As a matter of fact, with the first car I ever owned* I didn't need to
worry about burst brake lines.

I still own and drive two vehicles like that.

Each one has two-wheel mechanical brakes.

Jim


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==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

jim rozen wrote:
In article , Jeff Wisnia says...


As a matter of fact, with the first car I ever owned* I didn't need to
worry about burst brake lines.


I still own and drive two vehicles like that.

Each one has two-wheel mechanical brakes.

And get infinite gas milage too!

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia

(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"Truth exists; only falsehood has to be invented."

In article , Jeff Wisnia says...

Each one has two-wheel mechanical brakes.

And get infinite gas milage too!

Actually not. One gets about 45, the other about 40.

This is the 40 one:

http://www.metalworking.com/RCM-gallery/files/Rozen,Jim/Bmw.jpg

The other one is *almost* finished after having been off the
road for about two years. Frame off, powder coated, engine all
apart and re-worked, new everything nearly. Because that one
is 500 cc and geared quite tall it gets better mileage.

But they both have mechanical brakes, dual leading shoes in front
and single leading in the back. When set up properly they
work better than the disk brakes that were put on their successors.

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

On 14 Jan 2006 17:56:13 -0800, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , Jeff Wisnia says...

As a matter of fact, with the first car I ever owned* I didn't need to
worry about burst brake lines.

I still own and drive two vehicles like that.

Each one has two-wheel mechanical brakes.

Jim
My old '49 beetle had 4 wheel cable operated brakes - hand brake
applied all 4 through the same set of cables.

My '28 Chevy National had 4 wheel rod operated brakes, external band
on the rear, with a hand operated internal expanding brake on the
rear. To stop real fast you used both to keep the relatively
lightweight drums from distorting.

jim rozen wrote:

In article , Jeff Wisnia says...


Each one has two-wheel mechanical brakes.

And get infinite gas milage too!


Actually not. One gets about 45, the other about 40.

Oops, guessed wrong, I wuz thinking pedal powered bicycles.


This is the 40 one:

http://www.metalworking.com/RCM-gallery/files/Rozen,Jim/Bmw.jpg

Nice!

Jeff

The other one is *almost* finished after having been off the
road for about two years. Frame off, powder coated, engine all
apart and re-worked, new everything nearly. Because that one
is 500 cc and geared quite tall it gets better mileage.

But they both have mechanical brakes, dual leading shoes in front
and single leading in the back. When set up properly they
work better than the disk brakes that were put on their successors.

Jim




--
Jeffry Wisnia

(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"Truth exists; only falsehood has to be invented."

clare at snyder.on.ca wrote:

On 14 Jan 2006 17:56:13 -0800, jim rozen
wrote:


In article , Jeff Wisnia says...


As a matter of fact, with the first car I ever owned* I didn't need to
worry about burst brake lines.

I still own and drive two vehicles like that.

Each one has two-wheel mechanical brakes.

Jim

My old '49 beetle had 4 wheel cable operated brakes - hand brake
applied all 4 through the same set of cables.

My '28 Chevy National had 4 wheel rod operated brakes, external band
on the rear, with a hand operated internal expanding brake on the
rear. To stop real fast you used both to keep the relatively
lightweight drums from distorting.

The emergency brake in the '55 Chrysler convertible the first SWMBO and
I used to run sports car rallies in had a single cable operated drum
brake just behind the xmission to snag the prop shaft.

The teams in the real sporty cars laughed when we showed up in that
monster, but changed their tunes when we started taking home trophies.

I still have a photo of that car, and the motor driven Curta Calculator
rig I built just for rally computing.

http://home.comcast.net/~jwisnia18/temp/rallying.html

Jeff
--
Jeffry Wisnia

(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"Truth exists; only falsehood has to be invented."

"Jeff Wisnia" wrote in message
...

I still have a photo of that car, and the motor driven Curta
Calculator rig I built just for rally computing.

http://home.comcast.net/~jwisnia18/temp/rallying.html

Jeff
--
Jeffry Wisnia


Cute, but you have MY IP address wrong -- you have the
IP of my router ;-)

mikey

Jeff Wisnia wrote:



I told the kid to bite the bullet and buy a brand new preformed brake
line from a Honda dealer or see if he can get lucky at an auto recycler.
The original Honda tubing has a pretty heavy plastic sheathing on it
too, which looks like it's there to help avoid corrosion, so it might be
best to use that instead of naked steel anyway.

OK, so Honda wants $77 for a preformed eggsack duplicate brake line (If
they can even deliver one.)

Even I'm not crazy enough to spend that for about 5 feet of 3/16" tubing.

So, we'll measure the required path length of the brake line with a
piece of #12 solid electrical wire and buy one of those premade lengths
of brake tubing with the double flares and fitting ends already on it.
If we have to buy one a little long we can pack the excess somewhere
with a U bend.

The only tubing benders I own are the coil spring kind, so we're going
to have to use another style of bender.

But, all the lever type benders I've found for sale so far seem to start
out with 1/4" tubing size and go up from there.

Izzat because you can do 3/16" steel tubing freehand down to about a one
inch radius bend without it kinking? Or is it maybe because you can use
the 1/4" mandrill on those lever type benders for 3/16" tubing too?

I'd just as soon teach the kid to do things the *raht way* now, he'll
have plenty of opportunity to excercise creative butchery on his own
when he leaves the nest. G

Thanks guys,

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia

(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"Truth exists; only falsehood has to be invented."

Jeff Wisnia wrote:
Jeff Wisnia wrote:



I told the kid to bite the bullet and buy a brand new preformed brake
line from a Honda dealer or see if he can get lucky at an auto
recycler. The original Honda tubing has a pretty heavy plastic
sheathing on it too, which looks like it's there to help avoid
corrosion, so it might be best to use that instead of naked steel anyway.


OK, so Honda wants $77 for a preformed eggsack duplicate brake line (If
they can even deliver one.)

Even I'm not crazy enough to spend that for about 5 feet of 3/16" tubing.

So, we'll measure the required path length of the brake line with a
piece of #12 solid electrical wire and buy one of those premade lengths
of brake tubing with the double flares and fitting ends already on it.
If we have to buy one a little long we can pack the excess somewhere
with a U bend.

The only tubing benders I own are the coil spring kind, so we're going
to have to use another style of bender.

But, all the lever type benders I've found for sale so far seem to start
out with 1/4" tubing size and go up from there.

Izzat because you can do 3/16" steel tubing freehand down to about a one
inch radius bend without it kinking? Or is it maybe because you can use
the 1/4" mandrill on those lever type benders for 3/16" tubing too?

I'd just as soon teach the kid to do things the *raht way* now, he'll
have plenty of opportunity to excercise creative butchery on his own
when he leaves the nest. G

Jeff
Unless you have some critical tight bends, all you need is your
hands. That tubing is designed to be hand-bendable. It will take a lot
of abuse before it kinks. And if it does, get another piece, call it a
$5 lesson about the limits of the tbing

Rex B wrote:


Jeff Wisnia wrote:

Jeff Wisnia wrote:



I told the kid to bite the bullet and buy a brand new preformed brake
line from a Honda dealer or see if he can get lucky at an auto
recycler. The original Honda tubing has a pretty heavy plastic
sheathing on it too, which looks like it's there to help avoid
corrosion, so it might be best to use that instead of naked steel
anyway.



OK, so Honda wants $77 for a preformed eggsack duplicate brake line
(If they can even deliver one.)

Even I'm not crazy enough to spend that for about 5 feet of 3/16" tubing.

So, we'll measure the required path length of the brake line with a
piece of #12 solid electrical wire and buy one of those premade
lengths of brake tubing with the double flares and fitting ends
already on it. If we have to buy one a little long we can pack the
excess somewhere with a U bend.

The only tubing benders I own are the coil spring kind, so we're going
to have to use another style of bender.

But, all the lever type benders I've found for sale so far seem to
start out with 1/4" tubing size and go up from there.

Izzat because you can do 3/16" steel tubing freehand down to about a
one inch radius bend without it kinking? Or is it maybe because you
can use the 1/4" mandrill on those lever type benders for 3/16" tubing
too?

I'd just as soon teach the kid to do things the *raht way* now, he'll
have plenty of opportunity to excercise creative butchery on his own
when he leaves the nest. G


Jeff
Unless you have some critical tight bends, all you need is your
hands. That tubing is designed to be hand-bendable. It will take a lot
of abuse before it kinks. And if it does, get another piece, call it a
$5 lesson about the limits of the tbing


Thanks, you prolly just saved me the $20 needed to buy a tool I have
gotten along this far without and may never have need for again.

(Hell, at my age I don't even buy green bananas anymore!)

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia

(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"Truth exists; only falsehood has to be invented."

On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 14:58:54 -0500, Jeff Wisnia
wrote:

Rex B wrote:


Jeff Wisnia wrote:

Jeff Wisnia wrote:



I told the kid to bite the bullet and buy a brand new preformed brake
line from a Honda dealer or see if he can get lucky at an auto
recycler. The original Honda tubing has a pretty heavy plastic
sheathing on it too, which looks like it's there to help avoid
corrosion, so it might be best to use that instead of naked steel
anyway.



OK, so Honda wants $77 for a preformed eggsack duplicate brake line
(If they can even deliver one.)

Even I'm not crazy enough to spend that for about 5 feet of 3/16" tubing.

So, we'll measure the required path length of the brake line with a
piece of #12 solid electrical wire and buy one of those premade
lengths of brake tubing with the double flares and fitting ends
already on it. If we have to buy one a little long we can pack the
excess somewhere with a U bend.

The only tubing benders I own are the coil spring kind, so we're going
to have to use another style of bender.

But, all the lever type benders I've found for sale so far seem to
start out with 1/4" tubing size and go up from there.

Izzat because you can do 3/16" steel tubing freehand down to about a
one inch radius bend without it kinking? Or is it maybe because you
can use the 1/4" mandrill on those lever type benders for 3/16" tubing
too?

I'd just as soon teach the kid to do things the *raht way* now, he'll
have plenty of opportunity to excercise creative butchery on his own
when he leaves the nest. G


Jeff
Unless you have some critical tight bends, all you need is your
hands. That tubing is designed to be hand-bendable. It will take a lot
of abuse before it kinks. And if it does, get another piece, call it a
$5 lesson about the limits of the tbing


Thanks, you prolly just saved me the $20 needed to buy a tool I have
gotten along this far without and may never have need for again.

I'd still bend it around a round object, though. Anything that's
handy. That way bending stress follows the curve with little or no
moment going to the already-bent part.

According to Don Foreman :
On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 14:58:54 -0500, Jeff Wisnia
wrote:

[ ... ]

Thanks, you prolly just saved me the $20 needed to buy a tool I have
gotten along this far without and may never have need for again.

I'd still bend it around a round object, though. Anything that's
handy. That way bending stress follows the curve with little or no
moment going to the already-bent part.

And -- since you are working on a car, a set of sockets will
provide you with lots of radius samples to choose from.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

expanding on this theme, and intentionally top posting to annoy the
purists - I have a 1938 plymouth P6, whcih for years was my only car -
it had a external band emergency brake behind the trans which would
get nicely covered with oil - one day I came up to a red light kinda
fast, there was a small car already stopped at the light, and when I
pressed on the brake pedal, there was nothing - the fluid had leaked
out. So, I pulled the trusty emergency brake lever, compressing the
oiliy band around the oily drum. Now, this big car was going about
45, so even with the oil, there was a lot of heat, but not much
friction (initially), leading to a good rush of adrenalin. So, I
downshifted from 3rd to 2nd (you could do that by double clutching),
and the straight 6 let out a startled roar, causing the guy inthe
small car to look in his rear view mirror to see what bad thing was
about to happen to him. About that time, the heat in the band reached
critical temperature and the oil caught fire (huge puf of black smoke
comes out both sides of the car and a burst of flames from the oil
vapor) - I see the eyes in the rear view mirror get much bigger and
the shoulders tense up. With the puff of flames, the oil was all
gone, so now the brake worked and locked up the rear wheels and I
skidded to a stop about 6 inches from his rear bumper - as I stopped
the light changed, and he drove off kinda shakily. I followed, using
the now clean parking brake for the rest of my journey.

aaah, the folly of youth.





On Sun, 15 Jan 2006 18:47:40 -0500, Jeff Wisnia
wrote:



My old '49 beetle had 4 wheel cable operated brakes - hand brake
applied all 4 through the same set of cables.

My '28 Chevy National had 4 wheel rod operated brakes, external band
on the rear, with a hand operated internal expanding brake on the
rear. To stop real fast you used both to keep the relatively
lightweight drums from distorting.

The emergency brake in the '55 Chrysler convertible the first SWMBO and
I used to run sports car rallies in had a single cable operated drum
brake just behind the xmission to snag the prop shaft.

The teams in the real sporty cars laughed when we showed up in that
monster, but changed their tunes when we started taking home trophies.

I still have a photo of that car, and the motor driven Curta Calculator
rig I built just for rally computing.

http://home.comcast.net/~jwisnia18/temp/rallying.html

Jeff
Bill

www.wbnoble.com

to contact me, do not reply to this message,
instead correct this address and use it

will iam_ b_ No ble at msn daught com