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#1
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20 amp circuit/14-2 wire?
I am planning to have an isolated ceiling fan switch as an end run of a 20
amp circuit. I ran 14-2 wire from the fan...to the new switch...to the receptacle that was 15 amp. As I was preparing to tie this all together I noticed that the receptacle was fed by 12-2 wire and...sure enough there is a 20 amp breaker. Since the fan (no lights) hardly pulls any amperage it seems like I should be able to run the 14-2 anyway. Thoughts? |
#2
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I would do it over with 12 gauge wire. If you have some kind of short,
the breaker won't shut off without 20 amps of current, overloading the wire and possibly setting you up for a fire. Or maybe liability to the future, long after you sell the place. Part of the satisfaction of doing a job is doing it correctly, and it will sit with you for years if you made a mistake. You never know what the future owner will do to that line distal to the device. I think it is probably against code, the small load notwithstanding. Alternatively you could change the breaker to a 15 amp device, if the line draw isn't too high. Dave "deloid" wrote in message ... I am planning to have an isolated ceiling fan switch as an end run of a 20 amp circuit. I ran 14-2 wire from the fan...to the new switch...to the receptacle that was 15 amp. As I was preparing to tie this all together I noticed that the receptacle was fed by 12-2 wire and...sure enough there is a 20 amp breaker. Since the fan (no lights) hardly pulls any amperage it seems like I should be able to run the 14-2 anyway. Thoughts? |
#3
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"deloid" wrote in message ... I am planning to have an isolated ceiling fan switch as an end run of a 20 amp circuit. I ran 14-2 wire from the fan...to the new switch...to the receptacle that was 15 amp. As I was preparing to tie this all together I noticed that the receptacle was fed by 12-2 wire and...sure enough there is a 20 amp breaker. Since the fan (no lights) hardly pulls any amperage it seems like I should be able to run the 14-2 anyway. Thoughts? This is Turtle Two things here. Up your insurance on the house or redo it with # 12 wire. TURTLE |
#4
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#6
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On Fri, 5 Nov 2004 23:44:52 -0700, "deloid"
wrote: I am planning to have an isolated ceiling fan switch as an end run of a 20 amp circuit. I ran 14-2 wire from the fan...to the new switch...to the receptacle that was 15 amp. As I was preparing to tie this all together I noticed that the receptacle was fed by 12-2 wire and...sure enough there is a 20 amp breaker. Since the fan (no lights) hardly pulls any amperage it seems like I should be able to run the 14-2 anyway. Thoughts? Redo it. Right. Jeff |
#7
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"deloid" wrote in message ... I am planning to have an isolated ceiling fan switch as an end run of a 20 amp circuit. I ran 14-2 wire from the fan...to the new switch...to the receptacle that was 15 amp. As I was preparing to tie this all together I noticed that the receptacle was fed by 12-2 wire and...sure enough there is a 20 amp breaker. Since the fan (no lights) hardly pulls any amperage it seems like I should be able to run the 14-2 anyway. Thoughts? The only other thought is to change the circuit breaker from a 20 to an 15 and you will be fine. |
#8
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I did exactly the same thing. (Only in my case I was sorta innocent. I
extended a circuit that had only one 15a outlet on it, so I naturally assumed it complied with code and was a 15a circuit. wrong...) Anyhow, I couldn't see how they could ever use more than 15a on the circuit and replacing the 14 would be a PITA, so I changed to a 15a breaker. If you can't do that you will have to upgrade the wire. Sorry. |
#9
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deloid wrote:
I am planning to have an isolated ceiling fan switch as an end run of a 20 amp circuit. I ran 14-2 wire from the fan...to the new switch...to the receptacle that was 15 amp. As I was preparing to tie this all together I noticed that the receptacle was fed by 12-2 wire and...sure enough there is a 20 amp breaker. Since the fan (no lights) hardly pulls any amperage it seems like I should be able to run the 14-2 anyway. Thoughts? It's not right, but it's not all *that* unsafe because it is a switched light/ceiling fan -- you don't have to worry about someone coming along later and extending the circuit with a bunch of additional outlets. If I were doing it, I would use #12 wire. If I found out afterwards that I had accidently used #14 wire, I would leave it. If someone ever questioned me on it, I would claim that it was allowed by the "10 foot tap rule." (even if it's more than 10' to the ceiling fan, it is a lot less than 10' from the receptacle to the switch) All that said, how hard would it be to replace it with #12 wire? Putting on my asbestos underwear, Bob |
#10
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zxcvbob wrote:
deloid wrote: I am planning to have an isolated ceiling fan switch as an end run of a 20 amp circuit. I ran 14-2 wire from the fan...to the new switch...to the receptacle that was 15 amp. As I was preparing to tie this all together I noticed that the receptacle was fed by 12-2 wire and...sure enough there is a 20 amp breaker. Since the fan (no lights) hardly pulls any amperage it seems like I should be able to run the 14-2 anyway. Thoughts? It's not right, but it's not all *that* unsafe because it is a switched light/ceiling fan -- you don't have to worry about someone coming along later and extending the circuit with a bunch of additional outlets. If I were doing it, I would use #12 wire. If I found out afterwards that I had accidently used #14 wire, I would leave it. If someone ever questioned me on it, I would claim that it was allowed by the "10 foot tap rule." (even if it's more than 10' to the ceiling fan, it is a lot less than 10' from the receptacle to the switch) All that said, how hard would it be to replace it with #12 wire? Putting on my asbestos underwear, Bob (No offense, Bob; just yanking the chain:-) The 10 foot tap rule (and the 25 foot rule) don't apply here. Art 240-21 exceptions are for feeders under very strict conditions. Jim |
#11
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Thanks all...It will be replaced.
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#12
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Speedy Jim wrote:
zxcvbob wrote: deloid wrote: I am planning to have an isolated ceiling fan switch as an end run of a 20 amp circuit. I ran 14-2 wire from the fan...to the new switch...to the receptacle that was 15 amp. As I was preparing to tie this all together I noticed that the receptacle was fed by 12-2 wire and...sure enough there is a 20 amp breaker. Since the fan (no lights) hardly pulls any amperage it seems like I should be able to run the 14-2 anyway. Thoughts? It's not right, but it's not all *that* unsafe because it is a switched light/ceiling fan -- you don't have to worry about someone coming along later and extending the circuit with a bunch of additional outlets. If I were doing it, I would use #12 wire. If I found out afterwards that I had accidently used #14 wire, I would leave it. If someone ever questioned me on it, I would claim that it was allowed by the "10 foot tap rule." (even if it's more than 10' to the ceiling fan, it is a lot less than 10' from the receptacle to the switch) All that said, how hard would it be to replace it with #12 wire? Putting on my asbestos underwear, Bob (No offense, Bob; just yanking the chain:-) The 10 foot tap rule (and the 25 foot rule) don't apply here. Art 240-21 exceptions are for feeders under very strict conditions. Jim I know they don't apply. But if I was ever questioned accusatively about the 14 gauge wire, that's the bluff I would use. :-) If you look up the ampacity of #14 THHN wire, I believe it is 20 amps, with a footnote that other sections of the code limit its use to 15A. (I think there's just not enough margin when using #14 at 20A) OP has a fixed load of just a couple of amps, and it won't be extended later because it is switched. It's not done correctly and should be rewired, but if that's *really* hard to do I don't see a problem leaving it as is. If the extension ran to a receptacle or was nonswitched I wouldn't be as accepting of it (but even then it wouldn't be all *that* risky unless the cable was packed in insulation and couldn't dissipate heat. Best regards, Bob |
#13
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zxcvbob wrote:
Speedy Jim wrote: zxcvbob wrote: deloid wrote: I am planning to have an isolated ceiling fan switch as an end run of a 20 amp circuit. I ran 14-2 wire from the fan...to the new switch...to the receptacle that was 15 amp. As I was preparing to tie this all together I noticed that the receptacle was fed by 12-2 wire and...sure enough there is a 20 amp breaker. Since the fan (no lights) hardly pulls any amperage it seems like I should be able to run the 14-2 anyway. Thoughts? It's not right, but it's not all *that* unsafe because it is a switched light/ceiling fan -- you don't have to worry about someone coming along later and extending the circuit with a bunch of additional outlets. If I were doing it, I would use #12 wire. If I found out afterwards that I had accidently used #14 wire, I would leave it. If someone ever questioned me on it, I would claim that it was allowed by the "10 foot tap rule." (even if it's more than 10' to the ceiling fan, it is a lot less than 10' from the receptacle to the switch) All that said, how hard would it be to replace it with #12 wire? Putting on my asbestos underwear, Bob (No offense, Bob; just yanking the chain:-) The 10 foot tap rule (and the 25 foot rule) don't apply here. Art 240-21 exceptions are for feeders under very strict conditions. Jim I know they don't apply. But if I was ever questioned accusatively about the 14 gauge wire, that's the bluff I would use. :-) If you look up the ampacity of #14 THHN wire, I believe it is 20 amps, with a footnote that other sections of the code limit its use to 15A. (I think there's just not enough margin when using #14 at 20A) OP has a fixed load of just a couple of amps, and it won't be extended later because it is switched. It's not done correctly and should be rewired, but if that's *really* hard to do I don't see a problem leaving it as is. If the extension ran to a receptacle or was nonswitched I wouldn't be as accepting of it (but even then it wouldn't be all *that* risky unless the cable was packed in insulation and couldn't dissipate heat. Best regards, Bob Since this is an academic discussion g, if he ran Romex, the 90C conductors inside are limited to a 60C rating. (Go figger...) But you're right; I wouldn't have any qualms about the breaker protecting such a circuit during any kind of fault. Jim |
#14
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deloid wrote:
Thanks all...It will be replaced. If it was me, and it was a PIA to replace that wire, I'd put an inline fuse holder with a 10 amp 250 volt 3AG fuse inside that box with the receptical and feed the hot side of the 14-2 running from there to the switch through it. I'd personally feel quite safe with that. Here's a fuseholder which ought to easily fit in a standard box behind the receptical: http://www.radioshack.com/product.as...ct_id=270-1217 HTH, -- My name is Jeff Wisnia and I approved this message.... (W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE) "As long as there are final exams, there will be prayer in public schools" |
#15
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"TURTLE" wrote in message ... "deloid" wrote in message ... I am planning to have an isolated ceiling fan switch as an end run of a 20 amp circuit. I ran 14-2 wire from the fan...to the new switch...to the receptacle that was 15 amp. As I was preparing to tie this all together I noticed that the receptacle was fed by 12-2 wire and...sure enough there is a 20 amp breaker. Since the fan (no lights) hardly pulls any amperage it seems like I should be able to run the 14-2 anyway. Thoughts? This is Turtle Two things here. Up your insurance on the house or redo it with # 12 wire. The insurance will probably be denied when they find out about the 14/2 anyway. Bob |
#16
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This is one of those things that is illegal but not really unsafe. If this is a
pure motor load you could use the 430 rules and find he is perfectly legal BTW. The 240.4(D) rule limiting small conductors to the next size is to protect receptacle outlets, where you have no control over the load, not fixed loads, although the code does not slice it that finely(except in articles like 430) |
#17
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Your fine w/ the 14 . All you morons that insisted on 12, if you look at the
wires in the fan you'll see that they're not 12, most are 16. Put a 15amp breaker in. only a few bucks. |
#18
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That's a good idea, as long as the owner knew about the fuse. Can't you
just see them wondering why the circuit was dead. |
#19
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toller wrote:
That's a good idea, as long as the owner knew about the fuse. Can't you just see them wondering why the circuit was dead. I thought about that just after I hit "send". My immediate thought was to tell the OP to put a note under the wall switch plate telling where the fuse was. That'd be a logical place for someone troubleshooting things to find it. G Jeff -- My name is Jeff Wisnia and I approved this message.... (W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE) "As long as there are final exams, there will be prayer in public schools" |
#20
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"HA HA Budys Here" wrote in message ... From: "deloid" I am planning to have an isolated ceiling fan switch as an end run of a 20 amp circuit. I ran 14-2 wire from the fan...to the new switch...to the receptacle that was 15 amp. As I was preparing to tie this all together I noticed that the receptacle was fed by 12-2 wire and...sure enough there is a 20 amp breaker. Since the fan (no lights) hardly pulls any amperage it seems like I should be able to run the 14-2 anyway. Thoughts? No it's illegal. This is Turtle. No Happy, A home owner can do as he pleases if he does it and never sells the house without disclosing the problem before the sale. If he discloses it on the sale. he has no problem. So Happy it's not illegal for a home owner to do it but only to a Electrician it is illegal. Let me ask you one here. Have you ever seen a home owner in court because he wired his own house wrong. The NEC is for professional and it is not for home owners to be made to follow. the Home owner should follow the NEC but there is no law that says they have to. Happy your going to have to get out more and check on jobs and codes More. TURTLE |
#21
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"zxcvbob" wrote in message ... Speedy Jim wrote: zxcvbob wrote: deloid wrote: I am planning to have an isolated ceiling fan switch as an end run of a 20 amp circuit. I ran 14-2 wire from the fan...to the new switch...to the receptacle that was 15 amp. As I was preparing to tie this all together I noticed that the receptacle was fed by 12-2 wire and...sure enough there is a 20 amp breaker. Since the fan (no lights) hardly pulls any amperage it seems like I should be able to run the 14-2 anyway. Thoughts? It's not right, but it's not all *that* unsafe because it is a switched light/ceiling fan -- you don't have to worry about someone coming along later and extending the circuit with a bunch of additional outlets. If I were doing it, I would use #12 wire. If I found out afterwards that I had accidently used #14 wire, I would leave it. If someone ever questioned me on it, I would claim that it was allowed by the "10 foot tap rule." (even if it's more than 10' to the ceiling fan, it is a lot less than 10' from the receptacle to the switch) All that said, how hard would it be to replace it with #12 wire? Putting on my asbestos underwear, Bob (No offense, Bob; just yanking the chain:-) The 10 foot tap rule (and the 25 foot rule) don't apply here. Art 240-21 exceptions are for feeders under very strict conditions. Jim I know they don't apply. But if I was ever questioned accusatively about the 14 gauge wire, that's the bluff I would use. :-) If you look up the ampacity of #14 THHN wire, I believe it is 20 amps, with a footnote that other sections of the code limit its use to 15A. (I think there's just not enough margin when using #14 at 20A) OP has a fixed load of just a couple of amps, and it won't be extended later because it is switched. It's not done correctly and should be rewired, but if that's *really* hard to do I don't see a problem leaving it as is. If the extension ran to a receptacle or was nonswitched I wouldn't be as accepting of it (but even then it wouldn't be all *that* risky unless the cable was packed in insulation and couldn't dissipate heat. Best regards, Bob This is Turtle. The NEC code you was refering to say the #14 wire will cover 20 amps in certain conditions such as lighting, electric heaters, and none motor items being used. if they put a ceiling fan up there they will get could on the motor on it and refers to the foot note to not have a 20 amp ability and a 20 amp braker on it. It will fall back to the 15 amp ability of the wire and 15 amp on the breaker. this seem like splitting hairs here but when you start questioning the NEC codes usely you are later questioned by the State fire marshal about how did the fire start. There was a State Fire Marshal that told me one time that if every house and building was wire and applied to the safe side NEC code to the letter. There would not be but 1/2 the fires they would have looking at. I have a Uncle that his house burned to the ground because a friend of his run a #12 wire to his pump house and come out of the eves and did not put a wire hanger to hold the wire and not let it rub the boards of the eve. NEC said it should have a hanger on it and cost about 88 cents and the insurance company paid out $125K. Just watch when you want to push the NEC just a little. TURTLE |
#23
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"HA HA Budys Here" wrote in message ... From: "TURTLE" "HA HA Budys Here" wrote in message ... From: "deloid" I am planning to have an isolated ceiling fan switch as an end run of a 20 amp circuit. I ran 14-2 wire from the fan...to the new switch...to the receptacle that was 15 amp. As I was preparing to tie this all together I noticed that the receptacle was fed by 12-2 wire and...sure enough there is a 20 amp breaker. Since the fan (no lights) hardly pulls any amperage it seems like I should be able to run the 14-2 anyway. Thoughts? No it's illegal. This is Turtle. No Happy, A home owner can do as he pleases if he does it and never sells the house without disclosing the problem before the sale. If he discloses it on the sale. he has no problem. OK so, installing non-code compliant electrical work is not a violation if it's done by a homeowner and it's disclosed upon the sale. So Happy it's not illegal for a home owner to do it but only to a Electrician it is illegal. You're repeating yourself. It's legal for homeowners to install electrical wiring that does not meet the electrical code. I suppose if this was being inspected, no violation could be issued either. Let me ask you one here. Have you ever seen a home owner in court because he wired his own house wrong. Yes. Although not literally because I wasn't actually in the courtroom while the homeowner was testfying. But I do know of a homeowner whose home burned down due which killed his tenant, his wife, and a number of family pets. His home, an older Cape with a 2-car garage connected by breezeway had an apartment built over the garage and wired by the homeowner. He ran out of oil one night and gave the tenant electric heaters until the oil company could fill the tank the next day. Because of his work, the wiring from the apartment through the breezeway, which was undersized for the breakers, heated up and started a fire which destroyed 2 lives and prompted his insurer to NOT pay for the loss of the dwelling as neither the additional uninspected wiring or the finished space above the garage were ever inspected. For over a year his story was on the web, and he displayed a large sign on the now-vacant lot criticizing his homeowner's insurance company in an attempt to warn others, and direct passers-by to his website. The website unfortunately is gone now. Snipping Bull ! Your again confussing a illegal act WITH a insurance company and the home owner defending off a law suite filed by the tenant's Family . It was not a Criminal trial but a law suite to collect money for damages. The Home owner never spent a day in jail but spent court time defending hiself. If a electrician did it he would come under criminal charges. He is suppose to know better. TURTLE |
#24
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#25
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"HA HA Budys Here" wrote in message ... From: "TURTLE" Snipping Bull ! Your again confussing a illegal act WITH a insurance company and the home owner defending off a law suite filed by the tenant's Family . It was not a Criminal trial but a law suite to collect money for damages. The Home owner never spent a day in jail but spent court time defending hiself. If a electrician did it he would come under criminal charges. He is suppose to know better. TURTLE Snipping bull? You mean, this "bull?" "90-2. Scope (a) Covered. This Code covers the following. 1. Installations of electric conductors and equipment within or on public and private buildings or other structures, including mobile homes, recreational vehicles, and floating buildings; and other premises such as yards, carnival, parking, and other lots, and industrial substations." You see Turtle, the code, adopted by the AHJ is the LAW. It does not apply to homeowners or contractors or licensed electricians or handymen. If it did, each article would be followed by a fine/imprisonment schedule. It applies to "the installation." In the example I cited, there was no criminal trial because there was no intent to harm anyone or harm property. I have to imagine that even if a licensed contractor made the installation, and the inspector missed the violation, there would still be no criminal prosecution. But to tell the OP ot's OK to install a violation because you cannot imagine how doing so could cause any harm to anyone, is just plain wrong, bad, jackleg advice. When you're willing to "let this one go" where does it stop? Can we feed a bank of 4 switches, each feeding a row of 4 150 watt recessed cans, with #12 awg. on a 20a circuit, but run each switched leg out with 14/2, because there's no way any of the switched legs could possibly draw more than 15 amps? Or how about, we feed the 1st countertop outlet with #12, and then use #14 to that one lone outlet in the pantry because, heck... whose gonna do any cooking in a pantry? This is Turtle. Still you rant but a home owner can do as he pleases and do no illegal wrong. It's just again the code or code violation. There is illegal and then there is a code violation. Two different horse you can concider. TURTLE |
#26
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In article , "TURTLE" wrote:
Still you rant but a home owner can do as he pleases and do no illegal wrong. It's just again the code or code violation. There is illegal and then there is a code violation. Two different horse you can concider. Turtle, you don't seem to understand. In any jurisdiction that has adopted the NEC, the Code *is* the law, and a violation of the Code *is* a violation of the law. You're trying to make a distinction that doesn't exist, except in those jurisdictions that haven't adopted the Code (or a substitute). |
#27
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"Doug Miller" wrote in message m... In article , "TURTLE" wrote: Still you rant but a home owner can do as he pleases and do no illegal wrong. It's just again the code or code violation. There is illegal and then there is a code violation. Two different horse you can concider. Turtle, you don't seem to understand. In any jurisdiction that has adopted the NEC, the Code *is* the law, and a violation of the Code *is* a violation of the law. You're trying to make a distinction that doesn't exist, except in those jurisdictions that haven't adopted the Code (or a substitute). My understanding is that where I live, you have to get a permit for electrical changes. The changes will then be inspected. If you don't get the permit, you are breaking the law. Bob |
#28
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One question here. Why is the original circuit on 20 amp breaker in
the first place? If it is part of an appliance circuit in a kitchen or dinning area?If so than changing the breaker is not an option. Now for those of you who were quoting code and for those of you who think the code can be ignored (Turtle) I submit the following. NEC 2002 80.13 Authority (4) Police, Fire, and other enforcement agencies shall have authority to render necessary assistance in the enforcement of this Code when requested to do so by the authority having jurisdiction. 80.23 (A) Violations (2) Any order or notice issued pursuant to this code shall be served upon the owner ,operator,occupant,or other person responsible for the condition or violation,either by personal service or mail.............. (B) Penalties (1) Any person who fails to comply with the provisions of this Code or who fail to carry out an order made pursuant to this code or violates any condition attached to a permit ,approval,or certificate shall be subject to the penalties established by this jurisdiction. Now for those of you (Turtle) who think the code is a joke , I suggest you (Turtle) go pick up a copy and read further . If you read the above or read the code itself you will notice words like owner , occupant , person or persons. There very few places were the Code spcifically states Electrician. So yes the home owner is responsible. Lastly Turtle do the group a favor and pull your head in your shell and stop giving out bogus information. Bill |
#29
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.... ... wrote:
One question here. Why is the original circuit on 20 amp breaker in the first place? If it is part of an appliance circuit in a kitchen or dinning area?If so than changing the breaker is not an option. Now for those of you who were quoting code and for those of you who think the code can be ignored (Turtle) I submit the following. NEC 2002 80.13 Authority (4) Police, Fire, and other enforcement agencies shall have authority to render necessary assistance in the enforcement of this Code when requested to do so by the authority having jurisdiction. 80.23 (A) Violations (2) Any order or notice issued pursuant to this code shall be served upon the owner ,operator,occupant,or other person responsible for the condition or violation,either by personal service or mail.............. (B) Penalties (1) Any person who fails to comply with the provisions of this Code or who fail to carry out an order made pursuant to this code or violates any condition attached to a permit ,approval,or certificate shall be subject to the penalties established by this jurisdiction. Tell that to the telephone company when they ignore the grounding requirements in Article 800. They will laff at you. BTDT. Bob |
#31
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"Doug Miller" wrote in message m... In article , "TURTLE" wrote: Still you rant but a home owner can do as he pleases and do no illegal wrong. It's just again the code or code violation. There is illegal and then there is a code violation. Two different horse you can concider. Turtle, you don't seem to understand. In any jurisdiction that has adopted the NEC, the Code *is* the law, and a violation of the Code *is* a violation of the law. You're trying to make a distinction that doesn't exist, except in those jurisdictions that haven't adopted the Code (or a substitute). This is Turtle. There could be section of the country or citys that have a jail term for a home owner wiring his lights in his bed room the wrong way but in the state of Louisiana there is no jail time stated for wiring your own home wrong. He can wire it anyway he wants it. I have never heard of or know of any home owner ever spent a day in jail for wiring his own house like he wanted it. If you had a jail term for screwing up your own house. Half the population of the U.S. would be in jail. You can't tell a home owner how he is to wire his house unless he is using a contractor or electrician to do the work. Here is one for you. Call up the city inspector of your city and tell him that your neighbor wired his bed room lites wrong and not to code. Then tell the inspector to go do something about it. He will say well who was the electrician or contractor on that job and you say the owner of the house did it. the inspector will tell you awwwww I'll try and talk to him and get him to correct it , but if he throws me out. I can't do anything about it. Try this for real and see what happens. Here is another one for you. Did you know that a home owner can work on his freon hvac system all he wants and the E.P.A. can't say a word to him. He can be using freon 22 to blow his drive way off and you can't charge him with nothing at all. Now you may talk him into stop blowing the freon in the air if you can talk him out of it. Only E.P.A. licenced professionals or companys can go to jail for violations. Now without licence you can go to jail if your out working on for hire jobs and he don't own the house or property. He has to be working on somebody elses property to go to jail. Check up on what a home owner can do and get back with me. TURTLE Now if a electrician for hire wired it wrong or not to code. They will burnt him at the stake. |
#32
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It's sad to see Turtle go down in flames, but when you're wrong, you are
wrong. |
#33
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"... ..." wrote in message ... One question here. Why is the original circuit on 20 amp breaker in the first place? If it is part of an appliance circuit in a kitchen or dinning area?If so than changing the breaker is not an option. Now for those of you who were quoting code and for those of you who think the code can be ignored (Turtle) I submit the following. NEC 2002 80.13 Authority (4) Police, Fire, and other enforcement agencies shall have authority to render necessary assistance in the enforcement of this Code when requested to do so by the authority having jurisdiction. 80.23 (A) Violations (2) Any order or notice issued pursuant to this code shall be served upon the owner ,operator,occupant,or other person responsible for the condition or violation,either by personal service or mail.............. (B) Penalties (1) Any person who fails to comply with the provisions of this Code or who fail to carry out an order made pursuant to this code or violates any condition attached to a permit ,approval,or certificate shall be subject to the penalties established by this jurisdiction. Now for those of you (Turtle) who think the code is a joke , I suggest you (Turtle) go pick up a copy and read further . If you read the above or read the code itself you will notice words like owner , occupant , person or persons. There very few places were the Code spcifically states Electrician. So yes the home owner is responsible. Lastly Turtle do the group a favor and pull your head in your shell and stop giving out bogus information. Bill This is Turtle. I don't know about giving out bad advise, but IN the state of Louisiana a '' home own '' [ Not Public anything there ] can wire anything he wants and tell the inspector to kiss off. Now he can't rent it, have a business there, open to the public, or have any meeting of a group there at all or he comes under public regulations. Now in other states you can have a code set for the Parish / County that states something different as to what you can do. I totally agree with you if you have these regulation. Louisiana DOESN'T HAVE IT and a home owner can do what he wants with his house. Now we are kind of backwards in the regulation business but Them's the gritts! The only permitt there is in Oakdale, Louisiana 71463 on electric work there is if any work costing more than $1,000.00 + or a complete change out of meter pan and switch box you should get a permitt and have it inspected to see it meets the NEC code. Other than this they have nothing else. I'm speaking about my part of the country and not your. When you start stating regulations in your area , there is 10 other versions of what you say about your area that does not apply in other places. There is no one part of the country that will have the same regulation word for word but each will have there spin on it. Now I'm speaking about home owner only doing work and not trademan doing work. Trademen have to stick to the NEC to the letter. Now if you would like to know. Your talking to a Louisiana State Electrical contractor in the HVAC and some Electric work if I like to. As the Contractor, i know what I can do and not do as to NEC as for hire and homeowner come under a different set of rules in the state of Louisiana. What is not good in New York might be good in Louisiana for Home owners that is. If you don't catch the words Home Owner in this conversation you will not understand anything of what I'm saying here. TURTLE |
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"Clark Griswold" wrote in message news:iSgkd.594225$8_6.90242@attbi_s04... It's sad to see Turtle go down in flames, but when you're wrong, you are wrong. This is Turtle. There is no right and wrong here. You need to explain what is wrong here before you can say there is or something wrong. In Louisiana the NEC code is Appliable but Home owner can do as they please as long as they do the work by theirself and not get anybody '' for hire '' to work on the job. Other states have different regulation that may let the NEC code be inforced by a homeowner doing the work but Louisiana has no such ability of law enforcement, fire dept. , or any inspection dept. of any thing to enforce a home owner to wire his house a different way. When you don't know the laws in a different state like Louisiana, you make mistakes like you just did by speaking out or being a band wagon member. Knowing what NEC code say has nothing to do with what the state laws are on appling the NEC code. State laws can over ride NEC if they see fit to do so for NEC is a Code and not a law of any kind. Please tell me about the Louisiana State laws are on Home Owner doing their own work and Jail terms that Apply. Here is you a little secret here. There is none. TURTLE |
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In article , "TURTLE" wrote:
"Doug Miller" wrote in message om... In article , "TURTLE" wrote: Still you rant but a home owner can do as he pleases and do no illegal wrong. It's just again the code or code violation. There is illegal and then there is a code violation. Two different horse you can concider. Turtle, you don't seem to understand. In any jurisdiction that has adopted the NEC, the Code *is* the law, and a violation of the Code *is* a violation of the law. You're trying to make a distinction that doesn't exist, except in those jurisdictions that haven't adopted the Code (or a substitute). This is Turtle. There could be section of the country or citys that have a jail term for a home owner wiring his lights in his bed room the wrong way but in the state of Louisiana there is no jail time stated for wiring your own home wrong. He can wire it anyway he wants it. I have never heard of or know of any home owner ever spent a day in jail for wiring his own house like he wanted it. If you had a jail term for screwing up your own house. Half the population of the U.S. would be in jail. You can't tell a home owner how he is to wire his house unless he is using a contractor or electrician to do the work. I never said anything about jail time; that's your own invention. But the fact is that in some jurisdictions, there can be pretty heavy fines. And I assure you that in those jurisdictions, the code enforcement authorities very certainly *can* tell a homeowner how to wire his house; they can also tell him he isn't allowed to touch it at all because he doesn't know what he's doing. [snip] Check up on what a home owner can do and get back with me. Educate yourself to a new fact: what's true in your particular locality is not necessarily true everywhere. Just because _where_you_live_ there are no legal penalties (as far as you know) for a homeowner who violates the NEC, does *not* mean it's that way in other places. |
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In article , "TURTLE" wrote:
"Clark Griswold" wrote in message news:iSgkd.594225$8_6.90242@attbi_s04... It's sad to see Turtle go down in flames, but when you're wrong, you are wrong. This is Turtle. There is no right and wrong here. Bull****. Using 14/2 in a 20A circuit is wrong. No two ways about that. It's a violation of the NEC. You need to explain what is wrong here before you can say there is or something wrong. That's been explained thoroughly already: the maximum overcurrent protection permitted by the NEC for 14-gauge copper circuit conductors is 15A. Period. In Louisiana the NEC code is Appliable but Home owner can do as they please as long as they do the work by theirself and not get anybody '' for hire '' to work on the job. Other states have different regulation that may let the NEC code be inforced by a homeowner doing the work but Louisiana has no such ability of law enforcement, fire dept. , or any inspection dept. of any thing to enforce a home owner to wire his house a different way.\ OK, fine, we'll assume you're right about that. That does not change the facts, which a 1) 14/2 on a 20A circuit is a violation of the NEC. 2) The NEC in some places (many, actually) carries the force of law. 3) It is therefore illegal in those places to use 14/2 on a 20A circuit. 4) Just because Louisiana allows it, does not mean it's allowable everywhere. When you don't know the laws in a different state like Louisiana, you make mistakes like you just did by speaking out or being a band wagon member. Hellooooooooo..... Earth to Turtle.... *YOU* are the one who made the mistake, out of ignorance of the laws in other jurisdictions. *You* made the blanket statement that it's not illegal, ASSuming that what was true where you live was true everywhere else. News flash: it's not. Knowing what NEC code say has nothing to do with what the state laws are on appling the NEC code. State laws can over ride NEC if they see fit to do so for NEC is a Code and not a law of any kind. False. In many places, the NEC is adopted by law, in its entirety, as the electrical code for that jurisdiction, which means that _in_that_jurisdiction_ the NEC *is* the law. Please tell me about the Louisiana State laws are on Home Owner doing their own work and Jail terms that Apply. Here is you a little secret here. There is none. It doesn't matter what the laws are in Louisiana. All that matters is what the laws are where the work is being done. You stated that using 14/2 on a 20A circuit is perfectly legal. This may or may not be true, depending on where the dwelling in question is located -- but the point is, YOU DON'T KNOW. And therefore you shouldn't be giving advice like that when you don't know what you're talking about. |
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Were i work i am the law and i will do it any way i want ,And the way i do it it allways seams to be right.! |
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Helpful hint of the day: Stay far away from Louisiana. Stay even futher
away from Turtle or anything he has ever worked on. "TURTLE" wrote in message ... "Clark Griswold" wrote in message news:iSgkd.594225$8_6.90242@attbi_s04... It's sad to see Turtle go down in flames, but when you're wrong, you are wrong. This is Turtle. There is no right and wrong here. You need to explain what is wrong here before you can say there is or something wrong. In Louisiana the NEC code is Appliable but Home owner can do as they please as long as they do the work by theirself and not get anybody '' for hire '' to work on the job. Other states have different regulation that may let the NEC code be inforced by a homeowner doing the work but Louisiana has no such ability of law enforcement, fire dept. , or any inspection dept. of any thing to enforce a home owner to wire his house a different way. When you don't know the laws in a different state like Louisiana, you make mistakes like you just did by speaking out or being a band wagon member. Knowing what NEC code say has nothing to do with what the state laws are on appling the NEC code. State laws can over ride NEC if they see fit to do so for NEC is a Code and not a law of any kind. Please tell me about the Louisiana State laws are on Home Owner doing their own work and Jail terms that Apply. Here is you a little secret here. There is none. TURTLE |
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Joe Fabeitz wrote:
Helpful hint of the day: Stay far away from Louisiana. Stay even futher away from Turtle or anything he has ever worked on. I've lived enough of my life in East Texas that I think I'm pretty safe in saying this. Louisiana will be quite happy to have you stay away. ;-) Best regards, Bob |
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