20 amp circuit/14-2 wire?
 

I am planning to have an isolated ceiling fan switch as an end run of a 20
amp circuit.

I ran 14-2 wire from the fan...to the new switch...to the receptacle that
was 15 amp. As I was preparing to tie this all together I noticed that the
receptacle was fed by 12-2 wire and...sure enough there is a 20 amp breaker.


Since the fan (no lights) hardly pulls any amperage it seems like I should
be able to run the 14-2 anyway.

Thoughts?

I would do it over with 12 gauge wire. If you have some kind of short,
the breaker won't shut off without 20 amps of current, overloading the wire
and possibly setting you up for a fire. Or maybe liability to the future,
long after you sell the place. Part of the satisfaction of doing a job is
doing it correctly, and it will sit with you for years if you made a
mistake. You never know what the future owner will do to that line distal to
the device. I think it is probably against code, the small load
notwithstanding. Alternatively you could change the breaker to a 15 amp
device, if the line draw isn't too high.

Dave
"deloid" wrote in message
...
I am planning to have an isolated ceiling fan switch as an end run of a 20
amp circuit.

I ran 14-2 wire from the fan...to the new switch...to the receptacle that
was 15 amp. As I was preparing to tie this all together I noticed that the
receptacle was fed by 12-2 wire and...sure enough there is a 20 amp
breaker.


Since the fan (no lights) hardly pulls any amperage it seems like I should
be able to run the 14-2 anyway.

Thoughts?

"deloid" wrote in message
...
I am planning to have an isolated ceiling fan switch as an end run of a 20 amp
circuit.

I ran 14-2 wire from the fan...to the new switch...to the receptacle that was
15 amp. As I was preparing to tie this all together I noticed that the
receptacle was fed by 12-2 wire and...sure enough there is a 20 amp breaker.


Since the fan (no lights) hardly pulls any amperage it seems like I should be
able to run the 14-2 anyway.

Thoughts?

This is Turtle

Two things here. Up your insurance on the house or redo it with # 12 wire.

TURTLE

From: "Dave"

I would do it over with 12 gauge wire. If you have some kind of short,
the breaker won't shut off without 20 amps of current, overloading the wire
and possibly setting you up for a fire.

A short circuit is many hundreds of amps, in fact, thousands of amps. The
possibility of a short circuit has nothing to do with the reasons why #14 awg.
should not be used.

Or maybe liability to the future,
long after you sell the place.

Future liability isn't a bad reason to not do it, but it still falls way short
of the better answer.

Part of the satisfaction of doing a job is
doing it correctly,

A better way to state this the satisfaction of doing the job to an industry
standard, workmanlike manner.

and it will sit with you for years if you made a
mistake.

Guilt works but, there's still a better answer.

You never know what the future owner will do to that line distal to
the device.

I think it is probably against code, the small load
notwithstanding.

It's ironic, the one and only real and true and legal reason, that it is
against code, is the one you seem to give the least weight to.

Electrical work is governed by industry-standard trade practices and electrical
codes. Not guilt, not future screwups that could make a current screwup
dangerous, not the satisfaction of a job well done.

Alternatively you could change the breaker to a 15 amp
device, if the line draw isn't too high.

Dave

That falls under the catagory "not in a workmanlike manner."


"deloid" wrote in message
...
I am planning to have an isolated ceiling fan switch as an end run of a 20
amp circuit.

I ran 14-2 wire from the fan...to the new switch...to the receptacle that
was 15 amp. As I was preparing to tie this all together I noticed that the
receptacle was fed by 12-2 wire and...sure enough there is a 20 amp
breaker.


Since the fan (no lights) hardly pulls any amperage it seems like I should
be able to run the 14-2 anyway.

Thoughts?

From: "deloid"


I am planning to have an isolated ceiling fan switch as an end run of a 20
amp circuit.

I ran 14-2 wire from the fan...to the new switch...to the receptacle that
was 15 amp. As I was preparing to tie this all together I noticed that the
receptacle was fed by 12-2 wire and...sure enough there is a 20 amp breaker.


Since the fan (no lights) hardly pulls any amperage it seems like I should
be able to run the 14-2 anyway.

Thoughts?

No it's illegal.

On Fri, 5 Nov 2004 23:44:52 -0700, "deloid"
wrote:

I am planning to have an isolated ceiling fan switch as an end run of a 20
amp circuit.

I ran 14-2 wire from the fan...to the new switch...to the receptacle that
was 15 amp. As I was preparing to tie this all together I noticed that the
receptacle was fed by 12-2 wire and...sure enough there is a 20 amp breaker.


Since the fan (no lights) hardly pulls any amperage it seems like I should
be able to run the 14-2 anyway.

Thoughts?

Redo it. Right.

Jeff

"deloid" wrote in message
...
I am planning to have an isolated ceiling fan switch as an end run of a 20
amp circuit.

I ran 14-2 wire from the fan...to the new switch...to the receptacle that
was 15 amp. As I was preparing to tie this all together I noticed that the
receptacle was fed by 12-2 wire and...sure enough there is a 20 amp
breaker.


Since the fan (no lights) hardly pulls any amperage it seems like I should
be able to run the 14-2 anyway.

Thoughts?

The only other thought is to change the circuit breaker from a 20 to an 15
and you will be fine.

I did exactly the same thing. (Only in my case I was sorta innocent. I
extended a circuit that had only one 15a outlet on it, so I naturally
assumed it complied with code and was a 15a circuit. wrong...)

Anyhow, I couldn't see how they could ever use more than 15a on the circuit
and replacing the 14 would be a PITA, so I changed to a 15a breaker.

If you can't do that you will have to upgrade the wire. Sorry.

deloid wrote:
I am planning to have an isolated ceiling fan switch as an end run of a 20
amp circuit.

I ran 14-2 wire from the fan...to the new switch...to the receptacle that
was 15 amp. As I was preparing to tie this all together I noticed that the
receptacle was fed by 12-2 wire and...sure enough there is a 20 amp breaker.


Since the fan (no lights) hardly pulls any amperage it seems like I should
be able to run the 14-2 anyway.

Thoughts?




It's not right, but it's not all *that* unsafe because it is a switched
light/ceiling fan -- you don't have to worry about someone coming along
later and extending the circuit with a bunch of additional outlets.

If I were doing it, I would use #12 wire. If I found out afterwards
that I had accidently used #14 wire, I would leave it. If someone ever
questioned me on it, I would claim that it was allowed by the "10 foot
tap rule." (even if it's more than 10' to the ceiling fan, it is a lot
less than 10' from the receptacle to the switch)

All that said, how hard would it be to replace it with #12 wire?

Putting on my asbestos underwear,
Bob

zxcvbob wrote:

deloid wrote:

I am planning to have an isolated ceiling fan switch as an end run of
a 20 amp circuit.

I ran 14-2 wire from the fan...to the new switch...to the receptacle
that was 15 amp. As I was preparing to tie this all together I noticed
that the receptacle was fed by 12-2 wire and...sure enough there is a
20 amp breaker.


Since the fan (no lights) hardly pulls any amperage it seems like I
should be able to run the 14-2 anyway.

Thoughts?



It's not right, but it's not all *that* unsafe because it is a switched
light/ceiling fan -- you don't have to worry about someone coming along
later and extending the circuit with a bunch of additional outlets.

If I were doing it, I would use #12 wire. If I found out afterwards
that I had accidently used #14 wire, I would leave it. If someone ever
questioned me on it, I would claim that it was allowed by the "10 foot
tap rule." (even if it's more than 10' to the ceiling fan, it is a lot
less than 10' from the receptacle to the switch)

All that said, how hard would it be to replace it with #12 wire?

Putting on my asbestos underwear,
Bob

(No offense, Bob; just yanking the chain:-)
The 10 foot tap rule (and the 25 foot rule) don't apply here.
Art 240-21 exceptions are for feeders under very strict conditions.

Jim

Thanks all...It will be replaced.

Speedy Jim wrote:
zxcvbob wrote:

deloid wrote:

I am planning to have an isolated ceiling fan switch as an end run of
a 20 amp circuit.

I ran 14-2 wire from the fan...to the new switch...to the receptacle
that was 15 amp. As I was preparing to tie this all together I
noticed that the receptacle was fed by 12-2 wire and...sure enough
there is a 20 amp breaker.


Since the fan (no lights) hardly pulls any amperage it seems like I
should be able to run the 14-2 anyway.

Thoughts?



It's not right, but it's not all *that* unsafe because it is a
switched light/ceiling fan -- you don't have to worry about someone
coming along later and extending the circuit with a bunch of
additional outlets.

If I were doing it, I would use #12 wire. If I found out afterwards
that I had accidently used #14 wire, I would leave it. If someone
ever questioned me on it, I would claim that it was allowed by the "10
foot tap rule." (even if it's more than 10' to the ceiling fan, it is
a lot less than 10' from the receptacle to the switch)

All that said, how hard would it be to replace it with #12 wire?

Putting on my asbestos underwear,
Bob

(No offense, Bob; just yanking the chain:-)
The 10 foot tap rule (and the 25 foot rule) don't apply here.
Art 240-21 exceptions are for feeders under very strict conditions.

Jim

I know they don't apply. But if I was ever questioned accusatively
about the 14 gauge wire, that's the bluff I would use. :-)

If you look up the ampacity of #14 THHN wire, I believe it is 20 amps,
with a footnote that other sections of the code limit its use to 15A.
(I think there's just not enough margin when using #14 at 20A) OP has a
fixed load of just a couple of amps, and it won't be extended later
because it is switched.

It's not done correctly and should be rewired, but if that's *really*
hard to do I don't see a problem leaving it as is. If the extension ran
to a receptacle or was nonswitched I wouldn't be as accepting of it (but
even then it wouldn't be all *that* risky unless the cable was packed in
insulation and couldn't dissipate heat.

Best regards,
Bob

zxcvbob wrote:

Speedy Jim wrote:

zxcvbob wrote:

deloid wrote:

I am planning to have an isolated ceiling fan switch as an end run
of a 20 amp circuit.

I ran 14-2 wire from the fan...to the new switch...to the
receptacle that was 15 amp. As I was preparing to tie this all
together I noticed that the receptacle was fed by 12-2 wire
and...sure enough there is a 20 amp breaker.


Since the fan (no lights) hardly pulls any amperage it seems like I
should be able to run the 14-2 anyway.

Thoughts?



It's not right, but it's not all *that* unsafe because it is a
switched light/ceiling fan -- you don't have to worry about someone
coming along later and extending the circuit with a bunch of
additional outlets.

If I were doing it, I would use #12 wire. If I found out afterwards
that I had accidently used #14 wire, I would leave it. If someone
ever questioned me on it, I would claim that it was allowed by the
"10 foot tap rule." (even if it's more than 10' to the ceiling fan,
it is a lot less than 10' from the receptacle to the switch)

All that said, how hard would it be to replace it with #12 wire?

Putting on my asbestos underwear,
Bob

(No offense, Bob; just yanking the chain:-)
The 10 foot tap rule (and the 25 foot rule) don't apply here.
Art 240-21 exceptions are for feeders under very strict conditions.

Jim


I know they don't apply. But if I was ever questioned accusatively
about the 14 gauge wire, that's the bluff I would use. :-)

If you look up the ampacity of #14 THHN wire, I believe it is 20 amps,
with a footnote that other sections of the code limit its use to 15A. (I
think there's just not enough margin when using #14 at 20A) OP has a
fixed load of just a couple of amps, and it won't be extended later
because it is switched.

It's not done correctly and should be rewired, but if that's *really*
hard to do I don't see a problem leaving it as is. If the extension ran
to a receptacle or was nonswitched I wouldn't be as accepting of it (but
even then it wouldn't be all *that* risky unless the cable was packed in
insulation and couldn't dissipate heat.

Best regards,
Bob

Since this is an academic discussion g, if he ran Romex,
the 90C conductors inside are limited to a 60C rating. (Go figger...)
But you're right; I wouldn't have any qualms about the breaker
protecting such a circuit during any kind of fault.
Jim

deloid wrote:
Thanks all...It will be replaced.



If it was me, and it was a PIA to replace that wire, I'd put an inline
fuse holder with a 10 amp 250 volt 3AG fuse inside that box with the
receptical and feed the hot side of the 14-2 running from there to the
switch through it. I'd personally feel quite safe with that.

Here's a fuseholder which ought to easily fit in a standard box behind
the receptical:

http://www.radioshack.com/product.as...ct_id=270-1217

HTH,

--
My name is Jeff Wisnia and I approved this message....

(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"As long as there are final exams, there will be prayer in public
schools"

"TURTLE" wrote in message
...

"deloid" wrote in message
...
I am planning to have an isolated ceiling fan switch as an end
run of a 20 amp
circuit.

I ran 14-2 wire from the fan...to the new switch...to the
receptacle that was
15 amp. As I was preparing to tie this all together I noticed
that the
receptacle was fed by 12-2 wire and...sure enough there is a
20 amp breaker.


Since the fan (no lights) hardly pulls any amperage it seems
like I should be
able to run the 14-2 anyway.

Thoughts?

This is Turtle

Two things here. Up your insurance on the house or redo it with
# 12 wire.

The insurance will probably be denied when they find out about
the 14/2 anyway.

Bob

This is one of those things that is illegal but not really unsafe. If this is a
pure motor load you could use the 430 rules and find he is perfectly legal BTW.
The 240.4(D) rule limiting small conductors to the next size is to protect
receptacle outlets, where you have no control over the load, not fixed loads,
although the code does not slice it that finely(except in articles like 430)

Your fine w/ the 14 . All you morons that insisted on 12, if you look at the
wires in the fan you'll see that they're not 12, most are 16. Put a 15amp
breaker in. only a few bucks.

That's a good idea, as long as the owner knew about the fuse. Can't you
just see them wondering why the circuit was dead.

toller wrote:
That's a good idea, as long as the owner knew about the fuse. Can't you
just see them wondering why the circuit was dead.


I thought about that just after I hit "send". My immediate thought was
to tell the OP to put a note under the wall switch plate telling where
the fuse was. That'd be a logical place for someone troubleshooting
things to find it. G

Jeff

--
My name is Jeff Wisnia and I approved this message....

(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"As long as there are final exams, there will be prayer in public
schools"

"HA HA Budys Here" wrote in message
...
From: "deloid"


I am planning to have an isolated ceiling fan switch as an end run of a 20
amp circuit.

I ran 14-2 wire from the fan...to the new switch...to the receptacle that
was 15 amp. As I was preparing to tie this all together I noticed that the
receptacle was fed by 12-2 wire and...sure enough there is a 20 amp breaker.


Since the fan (no lights) hardly pulls any amperage it seems like I should
be able to run the 14-2 anyway.

Thoughts?

No it's illegal.

This is Turtle.

No Happy, A home owner can do as he pleases if he does it and never sells the
house without disclosing the problem before the sale. If he discloses it on the
sale. he has no problem.

So Happy it's not illegal for a home owner to do it but only to a Electrician it
is illegal. Let me ask you one here. Have you ever seen a home owner in court
because he wired his own house wrong. The NEC is for professional and it is not
for home owners to be made to follow. the Home owner should follow the NEC but
there is no law that says they have to.

Happy your going to have to get out more and check on jobs and codes More.

TURTLE

"zxcvbob" wrote in message
...
Speedy Jim wrote:
zxcvbob wrote:

deloid wrote:

I am planning to have an isolated ceiling fan switch as an end run of a 20
amp circuit.

I ran 14-2 wire from the fan...to the new switch...to the receptacle that
was 15 amp. As I was preparing to tie this all together I noticed that the
receptacle was fed by 12-2 wire and...sure enough there is a 20 amp
breaker.


Since the fan (no lights) hardly pulls any amperage it seems like I should
be able to run the 14-2 anyway.

Thoughts?



It's not right, but it's not all *that* unsafe because it is a switched
light/ceiling fan -- you don't have to worry about someone coming along
later and extending the circuit with a bunch of additional outlets.

If I were doing it, I would use #12 wire. If I found out afterwards that I
had accidently used #14 wire, I would leave it. If someone ever questioned
me on it, I would claim that it was allowed by the "10 foot tap rule."
(even if it's more than 10' to the ceiling fan, it is a lot less than 10'
from the receptacle to the switch)

All that said, how hard would it be to replace it with #12 wire?

Putting on my asbestos underwear,
Bob

(No offense, Bob; just yanking the chain:-)
The 10 foot tap rule (and the 25 foot rule) don't apply here.
Art 240-21 exceptions are for feeders under very strict conditions.

Jim

I know they don't apply. But if I was ever questioned accusatively about the
14 gauge wire, that's the bluff I would use. :-)

If you look up the ampacity of #14 THHN wire, I believe it is 20 amps, with a
footnote that other sections of the code limit its use to 15A. (I think
there's just not enough margin when using #14 at 20A) OP has a fixed load of
just a couple of amps, and it won't be extended later because it is switched.

It's not done correctly and should be rewired, but if that's *really* hard to
do I don't see a problem leaving it as is. If the extension ran to a
receptacle or was nonswitched I wouldn't be as accepting of it (but even then
it wouldn't be all *that* risky unless the cable was packed in insulation and
couldn't dissipate heat.

Best regards,
Bob

This is Turtle.

The NEC code you was refering to say the #14 wire will cover 20 amps in certain
conditions such as lighting, electric heaters, and none motor items being used.
if they put a ceiling fan up there they will get could on the motor on it and
refers to the foot note to not have a 20 amp ability and a 20 amp braker on it.
It will fall back to the 15 amp ability of the wire and 15 amp on the breaker.
this seem like splitting hairs here but when you start questioning the NEC codes
usely you are later questioned by the State fire marshal about how did the fire
start.

There was a State Fire Marshal that told me one time that if every house and
building was wire and applied to the safe side NEC code to the letter. There
would not be but 1/2 the fires they would have looking at.

I have a Uncle that his house burned to the ground because a friend of his run a
#12 wire to his pump house and come out of the eves and did not put a wire
hanger to hold the wire and not let it rub the boards of the eve. NEC said it
should have a hanger on it and cost about 88 cents and the insurance company
paid out $125K. Just watch when you want to push the NEC just a little.

TURTLE

From: "TURTLE"


"HA HA Budys Here" wrote in message
...
From: "deloid"


I am planning to have an isolated ceiling fan switch as an end run of a 20
amp circuit.

I ran 14-2 wire from the fan...to the new switch...to the receptacle that
was 15 amp. As I was preparing to tie this all together I noticed that the
receptacle was fed by 12-2 wire and...sure enough there is a 20 amp
breaker.


Since the fan (no lights) hardly pulls any amperage it seems like I should
be able to run the 14-2 anyway.

Thoughts?

No it's illegal.

This is Turtle.

No Happy, A home owner can do as he pleases if he does it and never sells the

house without disclosing the problem before the sale. If he discloses it on
the
sale. he has no problem.

OK so, installing non-code compliant electrical work is not a violation if it's
done by a homeowner and it's disclosed upon the sale.

So Happy it's not illegal for a home owner to do it but only to a Electrician
it
is illegal.

You're repeating yourself. It's legal for homeowners to install electrical
wiring that does not meet the electrical code.

I suppose if this was being inspected, no violation could be issued either.


Let me ask you one here. Have you ever seen a home owner in court

because he wired his own house wrong.

Yes. Although not literally because I wasn't actually in the courtroom while
the homeowner was testfying. But I do know of a homeowner whose home burned
down due which killed his tenant, his wife, and a number of family pets.

His home, an older Cape with a 2-car garage connected by breezeway had an
apartment built over the garage and wired by the homeowner. He ran out of oil
one night and gave the tenant electric heaters until the oil company could fill
the tank the next day.

Because of his work, the wiring from the apartment through the breezeway, which
was undersized for the breakers, heated up and started a fire which destroyed 2
lives and prompted his insurer to NOT pay for the loss of the dwelling as
neither the additional uninspected wiring or the finished space above the
garage were ever inspected.

For over a year his story was on the web, and he displayed a large sign on the
now-vacant lot criticizing his homeowner's insurance company in an attempt to
warn others, and direct passers-by to his website. The website unfortunately is
gone now.

The NEC is for professional and it is
not
for home owners to be made to follow.

You are absolutely out of your freakin' mind. And if you really believed this
crap, your reply to any homeowner with an electrical question would be "do
whatever you want, homeowners don't have to comply with the NEC -only
professional licensed electricians do."

the Home owner should follow the NEC
but
there is no law that says they have to.

This from a man who thinks a heat pump with a 40a 220v feed and it's backup
duct heater requiring 60a 220v is a more efficient means of heating a home in
the Northeast with a .14 KWH rate than natural gas or home heating oil.

I think you should stick to knocking tin. After you've read 90.2 a, paragraph
1, below...


Happy your going to have to get out more and check on jobs and codes More.

TURTLE

(Assuming the OP's AHJ has adopted the NEC...)

ARTICLE 90 -- Introduction
90-1. Purpose
(a) Practical Safeguarding. The purpose of this Code is the practical
safeguarding of persons and property from hazards arising from the use of
electricity.
(b) Adequacy. This Code contains provisions that are considered necessary for
safety. Compliance therewith and proper maintenance will result in an
installation that is essentially free from hazard but not necessarily
efficient, convenient, or adequate for good service or future expansion of
electrical use.
FPN: Hazards often occur because of overloading of wiring systems by methods or
usage not in conformity with this Code. This occurs because initial wiring did
not provide for increases in the use of electricity. An initial adequate
installation and reasonable provisions for system changes will provide for
future increases in the use of electricity.
(c) Intention. This Code is not intended as a design specification nor an
instruction manual for untrained persons.

90-2. Scope

(a) Covered. This Code covers the following.

1. Installations of electric conductors and equipment within or on public and
private buildings or other structures, (continued below)

Notice Turtle, it doesn't specify installation by WHOM. It covers and is
applicable to the installation *of*, not the installer...

including mobile homes, recreational vehicles, and floating buildings; and
other premises such as yards, carnival, parking, and other lots, and industrial
substations.

"HA HA Budys Here" wrote in message
...
From: "TURTLE"


"HA HA Budys Here" wrote in message
...
From: "deloid"


I am planning to have an isolated ceiling fan switch as an end run of a 20
amp circuit.

I ran 14-2 wire from the fan...to the new switch...to the receptacle that
was 15 amp. As I was preparing to tie this all together I noticed that the
receptacle was fed by 12-2 wire and...sure enough there is a 20 amp
breaker.


Since the fan (no lights) hardly pulls any amperage it seems like I should
be able to run the 14-2 anyway.

Thoughts?

No it's illegal.

This is Turtle.

No Happy, A home owner can do as he pleases if he does it and never sells the

house without disclosing the problem before the sale. If he discloses it on
the
sale. he has no problem.

OK so, installing non-code compliant electrical work is not a violation if
it's
done by a homeowner and it's disclosed upon the sale.

So Happy it's not illegal for a home owner to do it but only to a Electrician
it
is illegal.

You're repeating yourself. It's legal for homeowners to install electrical
wiring that does not meet the electrical code.

I suppose if this was being inspected, no violation could be issued either.


Let me ask you one here. Have you ever seen a home owner in court

because he wired his own house wrong.

Yes. Although not literally because I wasn't actually in the courtroom while
the homeowner was testfying. But I do know of a homeowner whose home burned
down due which killed his tenant, his wife, and a number of family pets.

His home, an older Cape with a 2-car garage connected by breezeway had an
apartment built over the garage and wired by the homeowner. He ran out of oil
one night and gave the tenant electric heaters until the oil company could
fill
the tank the next day.

Because of his work, the wiring from the apartment through the breezeway,
which
was undersized for the breakers, heated up and started a fire which destroyed
2
lives and prompted his insurer to NOT pay for the loss of the dwelling as
neither the additional uninspected wiring or the finished space above the
garage were ever inspected.

For over a year his story was on the web, and he displayed a large sign on the
now-vacant lot criticizing his homeowner's insurance company in an attempt to
warn others, and direct passers-by to his website. The website unfortunately
is
gone now.

Snipping Bull !

Your again confussing a illegal act WITH a insurance company and the home owner
defending off a law suite filed by the tenant's Family . It was not a Criminal
trial but a law suite to collect money for damages. The Home owner never spent a
day in jail but spent court time defending hiself.

If a electrician did it he would come under criminal charges. He is suppose to
know better.

TURTLE

From: "TURTLE"


Snipping Bull !

Your again confussing a illegal act WITH a insurance company and the home
owner
defending off a law suite filed by the tenant's Family . It was not a
Criminal
trial but a law suite to collect money for damages. The Home owner never
spent a
day in jail but spent court time defending hiself.

If a electrician did it he would come under criminal charges. He is suppose
to
know better.

TURTLE

Snipping bull?
You mean, this "bull?"

"90-2. Scope
(a) Covered. This Code covers the following.
1. Installations of electric conductors and equipment within or on
public and private buildings or other structures, including mobile homes,
recreational vehicles, and floating buildings; and other premises such as
yards, carnival, parking, and other lots, and industrial substations."

You see Turtle, the code, adopted by the AHJ is the LAW. It does not apply to
homeowners or contractors or licensed electricians or handymen. If it did, each
article would be followed by a fine/imprisonment schedule.

It applies to "the installation."

In the example I cited, there was no criminal trial because there was no intent
to harm anyone or harm property. I have to imagine that even if a licensed
contractor made the installation, and the inspector missed the violation, there
would still be no criminal prosecution.

But to tell the OP ot's OK to install a violation because you cannot imagine
how doing so could cause any harm to anyone, is just plain wrong, bad, jackleg
advice.

When you're willing to "let this one go" where does it stop?

Can we feed a bank of 4 switches, each feeding a row of 4 150 watt recessed
cans, with #12 awg. on a 20a circuit, but run each switched leg out with 14/2,
because there's no way any of the switched legs could possibly draw more than
15 amps?

Or how about, we feed the 1st countertop outlet with #12, and then use #14 to
that one lone outlet in the pantry because, heck... whose gonna do any cooking
in a pantry?

"HA HA Budys Here" wrote in message
...
From: "TURTLE"


Snipping Bull !

Your again confussing a illegal act WITH a insurance company and the home
owner
defending off a law suite filed by the tenant's Family . It was not a
Criminal
trial but a law suite to collect money for damages. The Home owner never
spent a
day in jail but spent court time defending hiself.

If a electrician did it he would come under criminal charges. He is suppose
to
know better.

TURTLE

Snipping bull?
You mean, this "bull?"

"90-2. Scope
(a) Covered. This Code covers the following.
1. Installations of electric conductors and equipment within or on
public and private buildings or other structures, including mobile homes,
recreational vehicles, and floating buildings; and other premises such as
yards, carnival, parking, and other lots, and industrial substations."

You see Turtle, the code, adopted by the AHJ is the LAW. It does not apply to
homeowners or contractors or licensed electricians or handymen. If it did,
each
article would be followed by a fine/imprisonment schedule.

It applies to "the installation."

In the example I cited, there was no criminal trial because there was no
intent
to harm anyone or harm property. I have to imagine that even if a licensed
contractor made the installation, and the inspector missed the violation,
there
would still be no criminal prosecution.

But to tell the OP ot's OK to install a violation because you cannot imagine
how doing so could cause any harm to anyone, is just plain wrong, bad, jackleg
advice.

When you're willing to "let this one go" where does it stop?

Can we feed a bank of 4 switches, each feeding a row of 4 150 watt recessed
cans, with #12 awg. on a 20a circuit, but run each switched leg out with 14/2,
because there's no way any of the switched legs could possibly draw more than
15 amps?

Or how about, we feed the 1st countertop outlet with #12, and then use #14 to
that one lone outlet in the pantry because, heck... whose gonna do any cooking
in a pantry?


This is Turtle.

Still you rant but a home owner can do as he pleases and do no illegal wrong.
It's just again the code or code violation.

There is illegal and then there is a code violation. Two different horse you can
concider.

TURTLE

In article , "TURTLE" wrote:


Still you rant but a home owner can do as he pleases and do no illegal wrong.
It's just again the code or code violation.

There is illegal and then there is a code violation. Two different horse you
can
concider.

Turtle, you don't seem to understand. In any jurisdiction that has adopted the
NEC, the Code *is* the law, and a violation of the Code *is* a violation of
the law. You're trying to make a distinction that doesn't exist, except in
those jurisdictions that haven't adopted the Code (or a substitute).

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
m...
In article , "TURTLE"
wrote:


Still you rant but a home owner can do as he pleases and do no
illegal wrong.
It's just again the code or code violation.

There is illegal and then there is a code violation. Two
different horse you
can
concider.

Turtle, you don't seem to understand. In any jurisdiction that
has adopted the
NEC, the Code *is* the law, and a violation of the Code *is* a
violation of
the law. You're trying to make a distinction that doesn't
exist, except in
those jurisdictions that haven't adopted the Code (or a
substitute).

My understanding is that where I live, you have to get a permit
for electrical changes. The changes will then be inspected. If
you don't get the permit, you are breaking the law.

Bob

One question here. Why is the original circuit on 20 amp breaker in
the first place? If it is part of an appliance circuit in a kitchen or
dinning area?If so than changing the breaker is not an option.

Now for those of you who were quoting code and for those of you who
think the code can be ignored (Turtle) I submit the following.

NEC 2002
80.13 Authority

(4) Police, Fire,
and other enforcement agencies shall have authority to render necessary
assistance in the enforcement of this Code when requested to do so by
the authority having jurisdiction.

80.23
(A) Violations

(2) Any order or notice issued pursuant to this code shall be served
upon the owner ,operator,occupant,or other person responsible for the
condition or violation,either by personal service or mail..............

(B) Penalties

(1) Any person who fails to comply with the provisions of this Code or
who fail to carry out an order made pursuant to this code or violates
any condition attached to a permit ,approval,or certificate shall be
subject to the penalties established by this jurisdiction.

Now for those of you (Turtle) who think the code is a joke , I
suggest you (Turtle) go pick up a copy and read further . If you read
the above or read the code itself you will notice words like owner ,
occupant , person or persons. There very few places were the Code
spcifically states Electrician. So yes the home owner is responsible.

Lastly Turtle do the group a favor and pull your head in your shell
and stop giving out bogus information.

Bill

.... ... wrote:
One question here. Why is the original circuit on 20 amp breaker in
the first place? If it is part of an appliance circuit in a kitchen or
dinning area?If so than changing the breaker is not an option.

Now for those of you who were quoting code and for those of you who
think the code can be ignored (Turtle) I submit the following.

NEC 2002
80.13 Authority

(4) Police, Fire,
and other enforcement agencies shall have authority to render necessary
assistance in the enforcement of this Code when requested to do so by
the authority having jurisdiction.

80.23
(A) Violations

(2) Any order or notice issued pursuant to this code shall be served
upon the owner ,operator,occupant,or other person responsible for the
condition or violation,either by personal service or mail..............

(B) Penalties

(1) Any person who fails to comply with the provisions of this Code or
who fail to carry out an order made pursuant to this code or violates
any condition attached to a permit ,approval,or certificate shall be
subject to the penalties established by this jurisdiction.



Tell that to the telephone company when they ignore the grounding
requirements in Article 800. They will laff at you. BTDT.

Bob

From: (... ...)


One question here. Why is the original circuit on 20 amp breaker in
the first place? If it is part of an appliance circuit in a kitchen or
dinning area?If so than changing the breaker is not an option.

In some areas I've found that when the remainder sq. ft. of a dwelling works
out to just over 1800 watts, that some electricians just up one of the circuits
to a 20a circuit instead of adding one more 15a circuit to cover the
requirement.

The code is a minimum standard. There is no code that says bedrooms/livingrooms
can't be 20a circuits.

Now for those of you who were quoting code and for those of you who
think the code can be ignored (Turtle) I submit the following.

NEC 2002
80.13 Authority

(4) Police, Fire,
and other enforcement agencies shall have authority to render necessary
assistance in the enforcement of this Code when requested to do so by
the authority having jurisdiction.

80.23
(A) Violations

(2) Any order or notice issued pursuant to this code shall be served
upon the owner ,operator,occupant,or other person responsible for the
condition or violation,either by personal service or mail..............

(B) Penalties

(1) Any person who fails to comply with the provisions of this Code or
who fail to carry out an order made pursuant to this code or violates
any condition attached to a permit ,approval,or certificate shall be
subject to the penalties established by this jurisdiction.

Now for those of you (Turtle) who think the code is a joke , I
suggest you (Turtle) go pick up a copy and read further . If you read
the above or read the code itself you will notice words like owner ,
occupant , person or persons. There very few places were the Code
spcifically states Electrician. So yes the home owner is responsible.

Lastly Turtle do the group a favor and pull your head in your shell
and stop giving out bogus information.

Bill

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
m...
In article , "TURTLE"
wrote:


Still you rant but a home owner can do as he pleases and do no illegal wrong.
It's just again the code or code violation.

There is illegal and then there is a code violation. Two different horse you
can
concider.

Turtle, you don't seem to understand. In any jurisdiction that has adopted the
NEC, the Code *is* the law, and a violation of the Code *is* a violation of
the law. You're trying to make a distinction that doesn't exist, except in
those jurisdictions that haven't adopted the Code (or a substitute).

This is Turtle.

There could be section of the country or citys that have a jail term for a home
owner wiring his lights in his bed room the wrong way but in the state of
Louisiana there is no jail time stated for wiring your own home wrong. He can
wire it anyway he wants it. I have never heard of or know of any home owner ever
spent a day in jail for wiring his own house like he wanted it. If you had a
jail term for screwing up your own house. Half the population of the U.S. would
be in jail. You can't tell a home owner how he is to wire his house unless he is
using a contractor or electrician to do the work.

Here is one for you. Call up the city inspector of your city and tell him that
your neighbor wired his bed room lites wrong and not to code. Then tell the
inspector to go do something about it. He will say well who was the electrician
or contractor on that job and you say the owner of the house did it. the
inspector will tell you awwwww I'll try and talk to him and get him to correct
it , but if he throws me out. I can't do anything about it. Try this for real
and see what happens.

Here is another one for you. Did you know that a home owner can work on his
freon hvac system all he wants and the E.P.A. can't say a word to him. He can be
using freon 22 to blow his drive way off and you can't charge him with nothing
at all. Now you may talk him into stop blowing the freon in the air if you can
talk him out of it. Only E.P.A. licenced professionals or companys can go to
jail for violations. Now without licence you can go to jail if your out working
on for hire jobs and he don't own the house or property. He has to be working on
somebody elses property to go to jail.

Check up on what a home owner can do and get back with me.

TURTLE

Now if a electrician for hire wired it wrong or not to code. They will burnt him
at the stake.

It's sad to see Turtle go down in flames, but when you're wrong, you are
wrong.

"... ..." wrote in message
...
One question here. Why is the original circuit on 20 amp breaker in
the first place? If it is part of an appliance circuit in a kitchen or
dinning area?If so than changing the breaker is not an option.

Now for those of you who were quoting code and for those of you who
think the code can be ignored (Turtle) I submit the following.

NEC 2002
80.13 Authority

(4) Police, Fire,
and other enforcement agencies shall have authority to render necessary
assistance in the enforcement of this Code when requested to do so by
the authority having jurisdiction.

80.23
(A) Violations

(2) Any order or notice issued pursuant to this code shall be served
upon the owner ,operator,occupant,or other person responsible for the
condition or violation,either by personal service or mail..............

(B) Penalties

(1) Any person who fails to comply with the provisions of this Code or
who fail to carry out an order made pursuant to this code or violates
any condition attached to a permit ,approval,or certificate shall be
subject to the penalties established by this jurisdiction.

Now for those of you (Turtle) who think the code is a joke , I
suggest you (Turtle) go pick up a copy and read further . If you read
the above or read the code itself you will notice words like owner ,
occupant , person or persons. There very few places were the Code
spcifically states Electrician. So yes the home owner is responsible.

Lastly Turtle do the group a favor and pull your head in your shell
and stop giving out bogus information.

Bill

This is Turtle.

I don't know about giving out bad advise, but IN the state of Louisiana a ''
home own '' [ Not Public anything there ] can wire anything he wants and tell
the inspector to kiss off. Now he can't rent it, have a business there, open to
the public, or have any meeting of a group there at all or he comes under public
regulations.

Now in other states you can have a code set for the Parish / County that states
something different as to what you can do. I totally agree with you if you have
these regulation. Louisiana DOESN'T HAVE IT and a home owner can do what he
wants with his house. Now we are kind of backwards in the regulation business
but Them's the gritts!

The only permitt there is in Oakdale, Louisiana 71463 on electric work there is
if any work costing more than $1,000.00 + or a complete change out of meter pan
and switch box you should get a permitt and have it inspected to see it meets
the NEC code. Other than this they have nothing else. I'm speaking about my part
of the country and not your. When you start stating regulations in your area ,
there is 10 other versions of what you say about your area that does not apply
in other places. There is no one part of the country that will have the same
regulation word for word but each will have there spin on it. Now I'm speaking
about home owner only doing work and not trademan doing work. Trademen have to
stick to the NEC to the letter.

Now if you would like to know. Your talking to a Louisiana State Electrical
contractor in the HVAC and some Electric work if I like to. As the Contractor, i
know what I can do and not do as to NEC as for hire and homeowner come under a
different set of rules in the state of Louisiana. What is not good in New York
might be good in Louisiana for Home owners that is.

If you don't catch the words Home Owner in this conversation you will not
understand anything of what I'm saying here.

TURTLE

"Clark Griswold" wrote in message
news:iSgkd.594225$8_6.90242@attbi_s04...
It's sad to see Turtle go down in flames, but when you're wrong, you are
wrong.


This is Turtle.

There is no right and wrong here.

You need to explain what is wrong here before you can say there is or something
wrong.

In Louisiana the NEC code is Appliable but Home owner can do as they please as
long as they do the work by theirself and not get anybody '' for hire '' to work
on the job. Other states have different regulation that may let the NEC code be
inforced by a homeowner doing the work but Louisiana has no such ability of law
enforcement, fire dept. , or any inspection dept. of any thing to enforce a home
owner to wire his house a different way.

When you don't know the laws in a different state like Louisiana, you make
mistakes like you just did by speaking out or being a band wagon member. Knowing
what NEC code say has nothing to do with what the state laws are on appling the
NEC code. State laws can over ride NEC if they see fit to do so for NEC is a
Code and not a law of any kind.

Please tell me about the Louisiana State laws are on Home Owner doing their own
work and Jail terms that Apply. Here is you a little secret here. There is none.

TURTLE

From: "TURTLE"

This is Turtle.

There is no right and wrong here.

You need to explain what is wrong here before you can say there is or
something
wrong.

Just answer this. If the OP said he "mistakenly" ran #18 awg. bell wire,
instead of 14/2 NM, would your answer be the same?

Because wiring it either way is just as wrong.

In Louisiana the NEC code is Appliable but Home owner can do as they please
as
long as they do the work by theirself and not get anybody '' for hire '' to
work
on the job. Other states have different regulation that may let the NEC code
be
inforced by a homeowner doing the work but Louisiana has no such ability of
law
enforcement, fire dept. , or any inspection dept. of any thing to enforce a
home
owner to wire his house a different way.

When you don't know the laws in a different state like Louisiana, you make
mistakes like you just did by speaking out or being a band wagon member.
Knowing
what NEC code say has nothing to do with what the state laws are on appling
the
NEC code. State laws can over ride NEC if they see fit to do so for NEC is a
Code and not a law of any kind.

The problem with all this reasoning your doing is, the OP wanted to know if
using #14 AWG on a 20a circuit was OK and quite simply, it is not.

In article , "TURTLE" wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
om...
In article , "TURTLE"
wrote:


Still you rant but a home owner can do as he pleases and do no illegal wrong.
It's just again the code or code violation.

There is illegal and then there is a code violation. Two different horse you
can
concider.

Turtle, you don't seem to understand. In any jurisdiction that has adopted
the
NEC, the Code *is* the law, and a violation of the Code *is* a violation of
the law. You're trying to make a distinction that doesn't exist, except in
those jurisdictions that haven't adopted the Code (or a substitute).

This is Turtle.

There could be section of the country or citys that have a jail term for a home

owner wiring his lights in his bed room the wrong way but in the state of
Louisiana there is no jail time stated for wiring your own home wrong. He can
wire it anyway he wants it. I have never heard of or know of any home owner
ever spent a day in jail for wiring his own house like he wanted it. If you had a
jail term for screwing up your own house. Half the population of the U.S. would
be in jail. You can't tell a home owner how he is to wire his house unless he
is using a contractor or electrician to do the work.

I never said anything about jail time; that's your own invention. But the fact
is that in some jurisdictions, there can be pretty heavy fines. And I assure
you that in those jurisdictions, the code enforcement authorities very
certainly *can* tell a homeowner how to wire his house; they can also tell
him he isn't allowed to touch it at all because he doesn't know what he's
doing.

[snip]

Check up on what a home owner can do and get back with me.

Educate yourself to a new fact: what's true in your particular locality is not
necessarily true everywhere. Just because _where_you_live_ there are no legal
penalties (as far as you know) for a homeowner who violates the NEC, does
*not* mean it's that way in other places.

In article , "TURTLE" wrote:

"Clark Griswold" wrote in message
news:iSgkd.594225$8_6.90242@attbi_s04...
It's sad to see Turtle go down in flames, but when you're wrong, you are
wrong.


This is Turtle.

There is no right and wrong here.

Bull****. Using 14/2 in a 20A circuit is wrong. No two ways about that. It's a
violation of the NEC.

You need to explain what is wrong here before you can say there is or something
wrong.

That's been explained thoroughly already: the maximum overcurrent protection
permitted by the NEC for 14-gauge copper circuit conductors is 15A. Period.

In Louisiana the NEC code is Appliable but Home owner can do as they please as
long as they do the work by theirself and not get anybody '' for hire '' to
work on the job. Other states have different regulation that may let the NEC code be
inforced by a homeowner doing the work but Louisiana has no such ability of law
enforcement, fire dept. , or any inspection dept. of any thing to enforce a
home owner to wire his house a different way.\

OK, fine, we'll assume you're right about that. That does not change the
facts, which a
1) 14/2 on a 20A circuit is a violation of the NEC.
2) The NEC in some places (many, actually) carries the force of law.
3) It is therefore illegal in those places to use 14/2 on a 20A circuit.
4) Just because Louisiana allows it, does not mean it's allowable everywhere.

When you don't know the laws in a different state like Louisiana, you make
mistakes like you just did by speaking out or being a band wagon member.

Hellooooooooo..... Earth to Turtle.... *YOU* are the one who made the mistake,
out of ignorance of the laws in other jurisdictions. *You* made the blanket
statement that it's not illegal, ASSuming that what was true where you live
was true everywhere else. News flash: it's not.

Knowing
what NEC code say has nothing to do with what the state laws are on appling the
NEC code. State laws can over ride NEC if they see fit to do so for NEC is a
Code and not a law of any kind.

False. In many places, the NEC is adopted by law, in its entirety, as the
electrical code for that jurisdiction, which means that _in_that_jurisdiction_
the NEC *is* the law.

Please tell me about the Louisiana State laws are on Home Owner doing their own
work and Jail terms that Apply. Here is you a little secret here. There is
none.

It doesn't matter what the laws are in Louisiana. All that matters is what the
laws are where the work is being done. You stated that using 14/2 on a 20A
circuit is perfectly legal. This may or may not be true, depending on where
the dwelling in question is located -- but the point is, YOU DON'T KNOW. And
therefore you shouldn't be giving advice like that when you don't know what
you're talking about.

Were i work i am the law and i will do it any way i want ,And the way i do
it it allways seams to be right.!

Helpful hint of the day: Stay far away from Louisiana. Stay even futher
away from Turtle or anything he has ever worked on.
"TURTLE" wrote in message
...

"Clark Griswold" wrote in message
news:iSgkd.594225$8_6.90242@attbi_s04...
It's sad to see Turtle go down in flames, but when you're wrong, you are
wrong.


This is Turtle.

There is no right and wrong here.

You need to explain what is wrong here before you can say there is or
something
wrong.

In Louisiana the NEC code is Appliable but Home owner can do as they
please as
long as they do the work by theirself and not get anybody '' for hire ''
to work
on the job. Other states have different regulation that may let the NEC
code be
inforced by a homeowner doing the work but Louisiana has no such ability
of law
enforcement, fire dept. , or any inspection dept. of any thing to enforce
a home
owner to wire his house a different way.

When you don't know the laws in a different state like Louisiana, you make
mistakes like you just did by speaking out or being a band wagon member.
Knowing
what NEC code say has nothing to do with what the state laws are on
appling the
NEC code. State laws can over ride NEC if they see fit to do so for NEC is
a
Code and not a law of any kind.

Please tell me about the Louisiana State laws are on Home Owner doing
their own
work and Jail terms that Apply. Here is you a little secret here. There is
none.

TURTLE

Joe Fabeitz wrote:

Helpful hint of the day: Stay far away from Louisiana. Stay even futher
away from Turtle or anything he has ever worked on.


I've lived enough of my life in East Texas that I think I'm pretty safe
in saying this. Louisiana will be quite happy to have you stay away. ;-)

Best regards,
Bob