I have single light switch, three romex in ceiling box, TWO LED panel lights
are running out of ceiling box. I want to add TWO more LED drop in panels.
I need to know HOW to add these.
Breaker Box turns off electrical outlet, stairs, BOTH LED lights, AND
additional lights in other basement room.
HELP PLEASE!

--
for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/mainte...x-1198964-.htm

On 9/8/19 1:44 AM, Bill H. wrote:
I have single light switch, three romex in ceiling box, TWO LED panel lights
are running out of ceiling box.Â* I want to add TWO more LED drop in panels.
I need to know HOW to add these. Breaker Box turns off electrical outlet, stairs, BOTH LED lights, AND
additional lights in other basement room.
HELP PLEASE!


First and foremost, you need to obtain an electrical permit from your local taxing authority. The permit and inspection in my locale would run ~$250.
Then, and only then, can you shove more wires in that overstuffed ceiling box.

Do you have single-phase or two-phase electric service?

On Sunday, September 8, 2019 at 1:44:05 AM UTC-4, Bill H. wrote:
I have single light switch, three romex in ceiling box, TWO LED panel lights
are running out of ceiling box. I want to add TWO more LED drop in panels.
I need to know HOW to add these.
Breaker Box turns off electrical outlet, stairs, BOTH LED lights, AND
additional lights in other basement room.
HELP PLEASE!

--
for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/mainte...x-1198964-.htm

Assuming you want the new ones to operate off the same switch, then you
wire them in parallel with the existing light, connecting black to black,
white to white, bare ground wire to bare ground wire. Where you connect
into the exisiting wiring depends on where the new ones are going and
how the existing has been run. Most times you'd connect at the existing
box for the light fixture that's there.

Next issue is how many wires are already in that box and how many it's
allowed to have per code. Typically they accommodate 6 to 10, there
are wire fill tables that show how many wires are allowed for the common
box sizes. You have three romex going in already, if they are each two
conductors, then that's 3x2 conductors + 1 ground =7. If you add another romex to
go to the first new light, that would make it 9. So that box is
supposed to accommodate at least nine 14g wires, assuming it is 14g.
Find the max count in the tables for your box, as long as it's 9 or
more, you're OK. Romex goes into old box, run over to first new box,
daisy chain to next one. Buy old work boxes for the new spots, they
are made to install into existing ceilings.

On Sun, 8 Sep 2019 06:44:13 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Sunday, September 8, 2019 at 1:44:05 AM UTC-4, Bill H. wrote:
I have single light switch, three romex in ceiling box, TWO LED panel lights
are running out of ceiling box. I want to add TWO more LED drop in panels.
I need to know HOW to add these.
Breaker Box turns off electrical outlet, stairs, BOTH LED lights, AND
additional lights in other basement room.
HELP PLEASE!

--
for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/mainte...x-1198964-.htm

Assuming you want the new ones to operate off the same switch, then you
wire them in parallel with the existing light, connecting black to black,
white to white, bare ground wire to bare ground wire. Where you connect
into the exisiting wiring depends on where the new ones are going and
how the existing has been run. Most times you'd connect at the existing
box for the light fixture that's there.

Next issue is how many wires are already in that box and how many it's
allowed to have per code. Typically they accommodate 6 to 10, there
are wire fill tables that show how many wires are allowed for the common
box sizes. You have three romex going in already, if they are each two
conductors, then that's 3x2 conductors + 1 ground =7. If you add another romex to
go to the first new light, that would make it 9. So that box is
supposed to accommodate at least nine 14g wires, assuming it is 14g.
Find the max count in the tables for your box, as long as it's 9 or
more, you're OK. Romex goes into old box, run over to first new box,
daisy chain to next one. Buy old work boxes for the new spots, they
are made to install into existing ceilings.

The typical 4" octagon box used for ceiling lights is 1 1/2" deep and
is full with 7 conductors. (3 14g Romex)
If by remote chance they used a 2 1/8" deep box, it holds 10 14g.
conductors.

http://gfretwell.com/electrical/Box%20fill%20table.jpg

On Sun, 8 Sep 2019 05:44:02 +0000, Bill H.
m wrote:

I have single light switch, three romex in ceiling box, TWO LED panel lights
are running out of ceiling box. I want to add TWO more LED drop in panels.
I need to know HOW to add these.
Breaker Box turns off electrical outlet, stairs, BOTH LED lights, AND
additional lights in other basement room.
HELP PLEASE!
Hire a "sparky" to have it tone properly and safely. Pretty difficult
to see through the ethernet exactly what setup you have.

On Sun, 8 Sep 2019 05:56:08 -0400, Jack Legg Handyman Service LLC
wrote:

On 9/8/19 1:44 AM, Bill H. wrote:
I have single light switch, three romex in ceiling box, TWO LED panel lights
are running out of ceiling box.* I want to add TWO more LED drop in panels.
I need to know HOW to add these. Breaker Box turns off electrical outlet, stairs, BOTH LED lights, AND
additional lights in other basement room.
HELP PLEASE!


First and foremost, you need to obtain an electrical permit from your local taxing authority. The permit and inspection in my locale would run ~$250.
Then, and only then, can you shove more wires in that overstuffed ceiling box.

Do you have single-phase or two-phase electric service?
No such thing as 2 phase

In article ,
says...

Do you have single-phase or two-phase electric service?
No such thing as 2 phase



There is (was). What is split phase in most of the US is mistakenly
called 2 phase by some. However there really is 2 phase.
I hop ewe don't have to go through the same old 400 postings about this.



Two-phase electrical power was an early 20th-century polyphase
alternating current electric power distribution system. Two circuits
were used, with voltage phases differing by one-quarter of a cycle, 90°.
Usually circuits used four wires, two for each phase. Less frequently,
three wires were used, with a common wire with a larger-diameter
conductor. Some early two-phase generators had two complete rotor and
field assemblies, with windings physically offset to provide two-phase
power. The generators at Niagara Falls installed in 1895 were the
largest generators in the world at that time and were two-phase
machines. Three-phase systems eventually replaced the original two-phase
power systems for power transmission and utilization. There remain few
two-phase distribution systems, with examples in Philadelphia,
Pennsylvania; many buildings in Center City are permanently wired for
two-phase[2] and Hartford, Connecticut.[3]

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"Ralph Mowery" says...

Do you have single-phase or two-phase electric service?
No such thing as 2 phase



There is (was). What is split phase in most of the US is
mistakenly
called 2 phase by some. However there really is 2 phase.
I hop ewe don't have to go through the same old 400
postings about this.


Two-phase electrical power was an early 20th-century
polyphase
alternating current electric power distribution system.
Two circuits
were used, with voltage phases differing by one-quarter of
a cycle, 90°.
Usually circuits used four wires, two for each phase. Less
frequently,
three wires were used, with a common wire with a
larger-diameter
conductor. Some early two-phase generators had two
complete rotor and
field assemblies, with windings physically offset to
provide two-phase
power. The generators at Niagara Falls installed in 1895
were the
largest generators in the world at that time and were
two-phase
machines. Three-phase systems eventually replaced the
original two-phase
power systems for power transmission and utilization.
There remain few
two-phase distribution systems, with examples in
Philadelphia,
Pennsylvania; many buildings in Center City are
permanently wired for
two-phase[2] and Hartford, Connecticut.[3]

Thanks for explaining this, Ralph. ;)

On Sun, 8 Sep 2019 19:12:25 -0400, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article ,
says...

Do you have single-phase or two-phase electric service?
No such thing as 2 phase



There is (was). What is split phase in most of the US is mistakenly
called 2 phase by some. However there really is 2 phase.
I hop ewe don't have to go through the same old 400 postings about this.


They were 25 Hz too. Wasn't aware there were any"shaker" transformers
still left in use. Noisy as heck - particularly the old Niagara 25hz
stuff. Transformers heated up from the friction of the laminations
rubbing against each other if they were not oil filled.

Two-phase electrical power was an early 20th-century polyphase
alternating current electric power distribution system. Two circuits
were used, with voltage phases differing by one-quarter of a cycle, 90°.
Usually circuits used four wires, two for each phase. Less frequently,
three wires were used, with a common wire with a larger-diameter
conductor. Some early two-phase generators had two complete rotor and
field assemblies, with windings physically offset to provide two-phase
power. The generators at Niagara Falls installed in 1895 were the
largest generators in the world at that time and were two-phase
machines. Three-phase systems eventually replaced the original two-phase
power systems for power transmission and utilization. There remain few
two-phase distribution systems, with examples in Philadelphia,
Pennsylvania; many buildings in Center City are permanently wired for
two-phase[2] and Hartford, Connecticut.[3]

No real reason the
permanently wired" 2 phase buildings cannot be connected to
"split phase" 120/240 supply. Be a bugger sourcing motors - things
like AC unis, driers, etc for an EXTREMELY limitted market.
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On Sunday, September 8, 2019 at 7:12:34 PM UTC-4, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article ,
says...

Do you have single-phase or two-phase electric service?
No such thing as 2 phase



There is (was). What is split phase in most of the US is mistakenly
called 2 phase by some. However there really is 2 phase.
I hop ewe don't have to go through the same old 400 postings about this.

If you had that hope, why did you take the troll bait?

You start off with the wrong assumption that because one particular system
of two phase was called two phase, that means that defines what two phase
means. To do this right, you first need to define what an N phase power
service would look like. Hint: It's not limited to 90 degrees phase
difference. I have defined it in the past, no one else has.

So, here are your questions. Let's take your second example of what you
say was the old two phase power, ie 90 deg phase difference, three wires with
a common return. I changed the phase difference to 70 deg by rotating
one of the windings on the generator. Are there
still two phases there? Now I change it to 179 deg, are there still
two phases there? I change it to 181, are there still two phases there?
I change it to 180 deg, are there still two phases
there? And how is the latter any electrically different than the
3 wire 240/120V service going into a home? Describe how I could tell
from the panel in your house which of the two I had, how they are
electrically different, how they behave differently?

This is based on semantics without definitions and reliance on what
something was historically, not electrical engineering. Would I call
240/120V, two phase? No, because it's not commonly referred to as that,
but that does not change the fact as to what's actually there, you
have two 120V sources that are 180 deg out of phase with each other.

On Mon, 9 Sep 2019 08:19:58 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:


If you had that hope, why did you take the troll bait?

He knew you would bite.

trader_4 writes:
On Sunday, September 8, 2019 at 7:12:34 PM UTC-4, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article ,
says...

Do you have single-phase or two-phase electric service?
No such thing as 2 phase



There is (was). What is split phase in most of the US is mistakenly
called 2 phase by some. However there really is 2 phase.
I hop ewe don't have to go through the same old 400 postings about this.

If you had that hope, why did you take the troll bait?

You start off with the wrong assumption that because one particular system
of two phase was called two phase, that means that defines what two phase
means. To do this right, you first need to define what an N phase power
service would look like. Hint: It's not limited to 90 degrees phase
difference. I have defined it in the past, no one else has.

So, here are your questions. Let's take your second example of what you
say was the old two phase power, ie 90 deg phase difference, three wires with
a common return. I changed the phase difference to 70 deg by rotating
one of the windings on the generator. Are there
still two phases there? Now I change it to 179 deg, are there still
two phases there? I change it to 181, are there still two phases there?
I change it to 180 deg, are there still two phases
there? And how is the latter any electrically different than the
3 wire 240/120V service going into a home? Describe how I could tell
from the panel in your house which of the two I had, how they are
electrically different, how they behave differently?

This is based on semantics without definitions and reliance on what
something was historically, not electrical engineering. Would I call
240/120V, two phase? No, because it's not commonly referred to as that,
but that does not change the fact as to what's actually there, you
have two 120V sources that are 180 deg out of phase with each other.

Are they 180 degrees? or 120 degrees. Most AC is distributed as three-phase
power. Each neighborhood here gets one of the three phases from the
the power yard where the incoming three-phase 115kVAC is transformed to
21kVAC or 12kVAC (depending on age of neighborhood) for distribution. That means the
two hot conductors at the service entrance are drived from two of the three
distribution phases, which would make them 120 degrees apart. That phase is split
using a grounded conductor (AKA Neutral) into two 120VAC circuits.

On Monday, September 9, 2019 at 12:26:02 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Mon, 9 Sep 2019 08:19:58 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:


If you had that hope, why did you take the troll bait?

He knew you would bite.

Wrong again, I ignored it. I ignored it after Clare took the bait.
It was only after Ralph made his detailed post that I replied.

On Monday, September 9, 2019 at 12:46:42 PM UTC-4, Scott Lurndal wrote:
trader_4 writes:
On Sunday, September 8, 2019 at 7:12:34 PM UTC-4, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article ,
says...

Do you have single-phase or two-phase electric service?
No such thing as 2 phase



There is (was). What is split phase in most of the US is mistakenly
called 2 phase by some. However there really is 2 phase.
I hop ewe don't have to go through the same old 400 postings about this.

If you had that hope, why did you take the troll bait?

You start off with the wrong assumption that because one particular system
of two phase was called two phase, that means that defines what two phase
means. To do this right, you first need to define what an N phase power
service would look like. Hint: It's not limited to 90 degrees phase
difference. I have defined it in the past, no one else has.

So, here are your questions. Let's take your second example of what you
say was the old two phase power, ie 90 deg phase difference, three wires with
a common return. I changed the phase difference to 70 deg by rotating
one of the windings on the generator. Are there
still two phases there? Now I change it to 179 deg, are there still
two phases there? I change it to 181, are there still two phases there?
I change it to 180 deg, are there still two phases
there? And how is the latter any electrically different than the
3 wire 240/120V service going into a home? Describe how I could tell
from the panel in your house which of the two I had, how they are
electrically different, how they behave differently?

This is based on semantics without definitions and reliance on what
something was historically, not electrical engineering. Would I call
240/120V, two phase? No, because it's not commonly referred to as that,
but that does not change the fact as to what's actually there, you
have two 120V sources that are 180 deg out of phase with each other.

Are they 180 degrees? or 120 degrees.

The 240/120V service into a house is two 120V sources that are 180 deg
out of phase with each other. That's how you get 240V between the two
hots.




Most AC is distributed as three-phase
power. Each neighborhood here gets one of the three phases from the
the power yard where the incoming three-phase 115kVAC is transformed to
21kVAC or 12kVAC (depending on age of neighborhood) for distribution. That means the
two hot conductors at the service entrance are drived from two of the three
distribution phases, which would make them 120 degrees apart.

I see the typical residential transformer connected with one high
voltage lead going to one primary, not connected across two. I assume
the other side is tied to a primary neutral.





That phase is split
using a grounded conductor (AKA Neutral) into two 120VAC circuits.

No argument there. The issue is what you then have, what it looks like,
what it is, how you describe it.
Go through the simple exercise with questions I posed for Ralph and try to
explain the obvious holes. When you treat 180 as just another phase
difference, a special case if you will where the phases are directly
opposite, you can answer all those questions easily. If you claim
otherwise, then you wind up wandering in the wilderness. Which is why
they won't answer it, step by step.

trader_4 writes:
On Monday, September 9, 2019 at 12:46:42 PM UTC-4, Scott Lurndal wrote:

This is based on semantics without definitions and reliance on what
something was historically, not electrical engineering. Would I call
240/120V, two phase? No, because it's not commonly referred to as that,
but that does not change the fact as to what's actually there, you
have two 120V sources that are 180 deg out of phase with each other.

Are they 180 degrees? or 120 degrees.

The 240/120V service into a house is two 120V sources that are 180 deg
out of phase with each other. That's how you get 240V between the two
hots.

Not so. The 240v service to the house (from the pole pig if you have
one) is one phase of the three phase distribution.

The pole pig takes the 21KVAC (for example) and transforms it to 240VAC.

The grounded conductor starts at the dist transformer, pole pig or service
entrance (a grounding rod (or collection thereof)).



Most AC is distributed as three-phase
power. Each neighborhood here gets one of the three phases from the
the power yard where the incoming three-phase 115kVAC is transformed to
21kVAC or 12kVAC (depending on age of neighborhood) for distribution. That means the
two hot conductors at the service entrance are drived from two of the three
distribution phases, which would make them 120 degrees apart.

I see the typical residential transformer connected with one high
voltage lead going to one primary, not connected across two.

That's certainly not typical. We're fed from a 12kv primary (two
current carrying conductors) which is transformed to 240v for distribution to a
dozen or so homes. All underground from the nearest substation to
the distribution transformer and underground (direct burial) to the
service entrance.

There's no need to distribute the grounded conductor (AKA neutral),
by definition.

Aerial installations may include the grounded conductor for safety
reasons or to help support the cable(that's why there are three wires twisted to most standard
pole-pig based service entrances), but it will be grounded again at your service entrance anyway.

You've certainly noticed that there are two terminals on the pole
pig each for the primary and secondary - that's what provides you
with 240v; the grounded conductor isn't passed through the transformer
(but it may ground the pole pig can if it's metallic).

On Monday, September 9, 2019 at 2:33:17 PM UTC-4, Scott Lurndal wrote:
trader_4 writes:
On Monday, September 9, 2019 at 12:46:42 PM UTC-4, Scott Lurndal wrote:

This is based on semantics without definitions and reliance on what
something was historically, not electrical engineering. Would I call
240/120V, two phase? No, because it's not commonly referred to as that,
but that does not change the fact as to what's actually there, you
have two 120V sources that are 180 deg out of phase with each other.

Are they 180 degrees? or 120 degrees.

The 240/120V service into a house is two 120V sources that are 180 deg
out of phase with each other. That's how you get 240V between the two
hots.

Not so. The 240v service to the house (from the pole pig if you have
one) is one phase of the three phase distribution.

That does not change the fact that it is in fact two 120V sine wave
voltage sources that are 180 deg out of phase with each other. That
is what you get from a center-tapped transformer. That is exactly what
it looks like and what it is. Two voltage sources:

120 Sine(wt)
120 Sine(wt + 180)




The pole pig takes the 21KVAC (for example) and transforms it to 240VAC.

The grounded conductor starts at the dist transformer, pole pig or service
entrance (a grounding rod (or collection thereof)).



Most AC is distributed as three-phase
power. Each neighborhood here gets one of the three phases from the
the power yard where the incoming three-phase 115kVAC is transformed to
21kVAC or 12kVAC (depending on age of neighborhood) for distribution. That means the
two hot conductors at the service entrance are drived from two of the three
distribution phases, which would make them 120 degrees apart.

I see the typical residential transformer connected with one high
voltage lead going to one primary, not connected across two.

That's certainly not typical. We're fed from a 12kv primary (two
current carrying conductors) which is transformed to 240v for distribution to a
dozen or so homes.

It's very typical here, transformer on a pole, connected to one of
the three primaries.

Here is an example:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distribution_transformer





All underground from the nearest substation to
the distribution transformer and underground (direct burial) to the
service entrance.

There's no need to distribute the grounded conductor (AKA neutral),
by definition.

IDK what you mean by "distribute". There is a neutral from the transformer
to the customers and with transformers like that pictured, there is a
neutral on the primary side also.



Aerial installations may include the grounded conductor for safety
reasons or to help support the cable(that's why there are three wires twisted to most standard
pole-pig based service entrances), but it will be grounded again at your service entrance anyway.

You've certainly noticed that there are two terminals on the pole
pig each for the primary and secondary

Obviously not on all transformers, not on most pole transformers here.
Here are some mo

https://www.featurepics.com/StockIma...age-786145.jpg

https://cdn8.dissolve.com/p/D869_53_...3_406_1200.jpg

http://www.bristolwatch.com/ele/img/pole_xformer.jpg



All of which is irrelevant, of course to what you have coming in on
the house 240/120 service. Why don't you answer the simple questions
I posed in the example of Ralph's two phase service?

On 9/9/19 1:33 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
trader_4 writes:
On Monday, September 9, 2019 at 12:46:42 PM UTC-4, Scott Lurndal wrote:

This is based on semantics without definitions and reliance on what
something was historically, not electrical engineering. Would I call
240/120V, two phase? No, because it's not commonly referred to as that,
but that does not change the fact as to what's actually there, you
have two 120V sources that are 180 deg out of phase with each other.

Are they 180 degrees? or 120 degrees.

The 240/120V service into a house is two 120V sources that are 180 deg
out of phase with each other. That's how you get 240V between the two
hots.

Not so. The 240v service to the house (from the pole pig if you have
one) is one phase of the three phase distribution.

The pole pig takes the 21KVAC (for example) and transforms it to 240VAC.

The grounded conductor starts at the dist transformer, pole pig or service
entrance (a grounding rod (or collection thereof)).



Most AC is distributed as three-phase
power. Each neighborhood here gets one of the three phases from the
the power yard where the incoming three-phase 115kVAC is transformed to
21kVAC or 12kVAC (depending on age of neighborhood) for distribution. That means the
two hot conductors at the service entrance are drived from two of the three
distribution phases, which would make them 120 degrees apart.

I see the typical residential transformer connected with one high
voltage lead going to one primary, not connected across two.

That's certainly not typical. We're fed from a 12kv primary (two
current carrying conductors) which is transformed to 240v for distribution to a
dozen or so homes. All underground from the nearest substation to
the distribution transformer and underground (direct burial) to the
service entrance.

There's no need to distribute the grounded conductor (AKA neutral),
by definition.

Aerial installations may include the grounded conductor for safety
reasons or to help support the cable(that's why there are three wires twisted to most standard
pole-pig based service entrances), but it will be grounded again at your service entrance anyway.

You've certainly noticed that there are two terminals on the pole
pig each for the primary and secondary - that's what provides you
with 240v; the grounded conductor isn't passed through the transformer
(but it may ground the pole pig can if it's metallic).

We have just two wires from the power company on the poles for
single phase power in my area.
It looks something like this:
https://www.hvacrschool.com/why-is-240v-called-single-phase/?print=print

I guess the power company's hot line is actually 13,000 volts
plus a bit .

On Monday, September 9, 2019 at 3:40:45 PM UTC-4, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 9/9/19 1:33 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
trader_4 writes:
On Monday, September 9, 2019 at 12:46:42 PM UTC-4, Scott Lurndal wrote:

This is based on semantics without definitions and reliance on what
something was historically, not electrical engineering. Would I call
240/120V, two phase? No, because it's not commonly referred to as that,
but that does not change the fact as to what's actually there, you
have two 120V sources that are 180 deg out of phase with each other.

Are they 180 degrees? or 120 degrees.

The 240/120V service into a house is two 120V sources that are 180 deg
out of phase with each other. That's how you get 240V between the two
hots.

Not so. The 240v service to the house (from the pole pig if you have
one) is one phase of the three phase distribution.

The pole pig takes the 21KVAC (for example) and transforms it to 240VAC.

The grounded conductor starts at the dist transformer, pole pig or service
entrance (a grounding rod (or collection thereof)).



Most AC is distributed as three-phase
power. Each neighborhood here gets one of the three phases from the
the power yard where the incoming three-phase 115kVAC is transformed to
21kVAC or 12kVAC (depending on age of neighborhood) for distribution. That means the
two hot conductors at the service entrance are drived from two of the three
distribution phases, which would make them 120 degrees apart.

I see the typical residential transformer connected with one high
voltage lead going to one primary, not connected across two.

That's certainly not typical. We're fed from a 12kv primary (two
current carrying conductors) which is transformed to 240v for distribution to a
dozen or so homes. All underground from the nearest substation to
the distribution transformer and underground (direct burial) to the
service entrance.

There's no need to distribute the grounded conductor (AKA neutral),
by definition.

Aerial installations may include the grounded conductor for safety
reasons or to help support the cable(that's why there are three wires twisted to most standard
pole-pig based service entrances), but it will be grounded again at your service entrance anyway.

You've certainly noticed that there are two terminals on the pole
pig each for the primary and secondary - that's what provides you
with 240v; the grounded conductor isn't passed through the transformer
(but it may ground the pole pig can if it's metallic).

We have just two wires from the power company on the poles for
single phase power in my area.
It looks something like this:
https://www.hvacrschool.com/why-is-240v-called-single-phase/?print=print

I guess the power company's hot line is actually 13,000 volts
plus a bit .

And sometimes I see just one primary going down a road too. Just depends
on what the current loads and expected loads are. That's a good picture of
exactly what I was describing, very common here. Pole transformer
connected between one primary and the primary neutral. I'll have to
look more around here when out, see if I also see some
transformers connected across two primaries. There are pictures of that,
which Scott was describing, online.

In article ,
says...

All of which is irrelevant, of course to what you have coming in on
the house 240/120 service. Why don't you answer the simple questions
I posed in the example of Ralph's two phase service?





I should have stated that was not my opinion, but a copy and paste from
Wikipeaia.

I don't intend to get into a discussion over this, Just wanted to point
out that by definition there is/was 2 phase in a few parts of the US.
It does not matter what anyone says, there is a certain definition for 2
phase.

Just like the bianary number system there are 10 types of people.
Those that understand and those that don't.


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On Mon, 09 Sep 2019 16:46:38 GMT, (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

trader_4 writes:
On Sunday, September 8, 2019 at 7:12:34 PM UTC-4, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article ,
says...

Do you have single-phase or two-phase electric service?
No such thing as 2 phase



There is (was). What is split phase in most of the US is mistakenly
called 2 phase by some. However there really is 2 phase.
I hop ewe don't have to go through the same old 400 postings about this.

If you had that hope, why did you take the troll bait?

You start off with the wrong assumption that because one particular system
of two phase was called two phase, that means that defines what two phase
means. To do this right, you first need to define what an N phase power
service would look like. Hint: It's not limited to 90 degrees phase
difference. I have defined it in the past, no one else has.

So, here are your questions. Let's take your second example of what you
say was the old two phase power, ie 90 deg phase difference, three wires with
a common return. I changed the phase difference to 70 deg by rotating
one of the windings on the generator. Are there
still two phases there? Now I change it to 179 deg, are there still
two phases there? I change it to 181, are there still two phases there?
I change it to 180 deg, are there still two phases
there? And how is the latter any electrically different than the
3 wire 240/120V service going into a home? Describe how I could tell
from the panel in your house which of the two I had, how they are
electrically different, how they behave differently?

This is based on semantics without definitions and reliance on what
something was historically, not electrical engineering. Would I call
240/120V, two phase? No, because it's not commonly referred to as that,
but that does not change the fact as to what's actually there, you
have two 120V sources that are 180 deg out of phase with each other.

Are they 180 degrees? or 120 degrees. Most AC is distributed as three-phase
power. Each neighborhood here gets one of the three phases from the
the power yard where the incoming three-phase 115kVAC is transformed to
21kVAC or 12kVAC (depending on age of neighborhood) for distribution. That means the
two hot conductors at the service entrance are drived from two of the three
distribution phases, which would make them 120 degrees apart. That phase is split
using a grounded conductor (AKA Neutral) into two 120VAC circuits.
No, most residential power is derived from a single phase of the 3
phase distribution system. The primary of the branch transformer is
accross ONE phase of the ncoming power,and the secondary is center
tapped - providing a "split" phase where each side of the service is
180 degrees out of phase with the other - making the voltage of the
two phases additive.

When derived from 2 phases of a 3 phase supply you get 120 and 208
(the sum of 120 degree out of phase)

On Mon, 09 Sep 2019 18:33:13 GMT, (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

trader_4 writes:
On Monday, September 9, 2019 at 12:46:42 PM UTC-4, Scott Lurndal wrote:

This is based on semantics without definitions and reliance on what
something was historically, not electrical engineering. Would I call
240/120V, two phase? No, because it's not commonly referred to as that,
but that does not change the fact as to what's actually there, you
have two 120V sources that are 180 deg out of phase with each other.

Are they 180 degrees? or 120 degrees.

The 240/120V service into a house is two 120V sources that are 180 deg
out of phase with each other. That's how you get 240V between the two
hots.

Not so. The 240v service to the house (from the pole pig if you have
one) is one phase of the three phase distribution.

The pole pig takes the 21KVAC (for example) and transforms it to 240VAC.

The grounded conductor starts at the dist transformer, pole pig or service
entrance (a grounding rod (or collection thereof)).



Most AC is distributed as three-phase
power. Each neighborhood here gets one of the three phases from the
the power yard where the incoming three-phase 115kVAC is transformed to
21kVAC or 12kVAC (depending on age of neighborhood) for distribution. That means the
two hot conductors at the service entrance are drived from two of the three
distribution phases, which would make them 120 degrees apart.

I see the typical residential transformer connected with one high
voltage lead going to one primary, not connected across two.

That's certainly not typical. We're fed from a 12kv primary (two
current carrying conductors) which is transformed to 240v for distribution to a
dozen or so homes. All underground from the nearest substation to
the distribution transformer and underground (direct burial) to the
service entrance.

There's no need to distribute the grounded conductor (AKA neutral),
by definition.

Yet it IS distributed - just about everywhere. Using ground as a
current return is no longer common.

Aerial installations may include the grounded conductor for safety
reasons or to help support the cable(that's why there are three wires twisted to most standard
pole-pig based service entrances), but it will be grounded again at your service entrance anyway.

You've certainly noticed that there are two terminals on the pole
pig each for the primary and secondary - that's what provides you
with 240v; the grounded conductor isn't passed through the transformer
(but it may ground the pole pig can if it's metallic).

On Monday, September 9, 2019 at 5:28:23 PM UTC-4, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article ,
says...

All of which is irrelevant, of course to what you have coming in on
the house 240/120 service. Why don't you answer the simple questions
I posed in the example of Ralph's two phase service?





I should have stated that was not my opinion, but a copy and paste from
Wikipeaia.

I don't intend to get into a discussion over this, Just wanted to point
out that by definition there is/was 2 phase in a few parts of the US.
It does not matter what anyone says, there is a certain definition for 2
phase.

Sure, what you copied and pasted was what one implementation of two
phase power looked like a hundred years ago. No one denies that
existed. Are you insisting that any two phase power system
has to be 90 deg because that happened to be one of the many possibilities
that was actually implemented?. What you have is just an
example of *one* implementation of a two phase power source. It's not
a "definition" of anything. Which of course is why you can't answer
the simple questions posed, eg if the phase angle difference was instead
set to 89 degrees, 130 deg, 175 deg, would there still be two phases there?
If not, why not? I guess you're implying the answer is no, it has to
be 90 deg and only 90 degrees is ever possible? What happens if I rotate
one coil by ten degrees? It all collapses into a black hole or something?






Just like the bianary number system there are 10 types of people.
Those that understand and those that don't.

Those that understand can answer simple questions, like those
I posed.

On Monday, September 9, 2019 at 5:33:54 PM UTC-4, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Mon, 09 Sep 2019 16:46:38 GMT, (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

trader_4 writes:
On Sunday, September 8, 2019 at 7:12:34 PM UTC-4, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article ,
says...

Do you have single-phase or two-phase electric service?
No such thing as 2 phase



There is (was). What is split phase in most of the US is mistakenly
called 2 phase by some. However there really is 2 phase.
I hop ewe don't have to go through the same old 400 postings about this.

If you had that hope, why did you take the troll bait?

You start off with the wrong assumption that because one particular system
of two phase was called two phase, that means that defines what two phase
means. To do this right, you first need to define what an N phase power
service would look like. Hint: It's not limited to 90 degrees phase
difference. I have defined it in the past, no one else has.

So, here are your questions. Let's take your second example of what you
say was the old two phase power, ie 90 deg phase difference, three wires with
a common return. I changed the phase difference to 70 deg by rotating
one of the windings on the generator. Are there
still two phases there? Now I change it to 179 deg, are there still
two phases there? I change it to 181, are there still two phases there?
I change it to 180 deg, are there still two phases
there? And how is the latter any electrically different than the
3 wire 240/120V service going into a home? Describe how I could tell
from the panel in your house which of the two I had, how they are
electrically different, how they behave differently?

This is based on semantics without definitions and reliance on what
something was historically, not electrical engineering. Would I call
240/120V, two phase? No, because it's not commonly referred to as that,
but that does not change the fact as to what's actually there, you
have two 120V sources that are 180 deg out of phase with each other.

Are they 180 degrees? or 120 degrees. Most AC is distributed as three-phase
power. Each neighborhood here gets one of the three phases from the
the power yard where the incoming three-phase 115kVAC is transformed to
21kVAC or 12kVAC (depending on age of neighborhood) for distribution. That means the
two hot conductors at the service entrance are drived from two of the three
distribution phases, which would make them 120 degrees apart. That phase is split
using a grounded conductor (AKA Neutral) into two 120VAC circuits.
No, most residential power is derived from a single phase of the 3
phase distribution system. The primary of the branch transformer is
accross ONE phase of the ncoming power,and the secondary is center
tapped - providing a "split" phase where each side of the service is
180 degrees out of phase with the other - making the voltage of the
two phases additive.

Oh my, while describing 240/120V service, Clare just said the voltage
of the "TWO PHASES" coming from the transformer are additive.
Bingo!






When derived from 2 phases of a 3 phase supply you get 120 and 208
(the sum of 120 degree out of phase)

On Monday, September 9, 2019 at 12:46:42 PM UTC-4, Scott Lurndal wrote:
trader_4 writes:
On Sunday, September 8, 2019 at 7:12:34 PM UTC-4, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article ,
says...

Do you have single-phase or two-phase electric service?
No such thing as 2 phase



There is (was). What is split phase in most of the US is mistakenly
called 2 phase by some. However there really is 2 phase.
I hop ewe don't have to go through the same old 400 postings about this.

If you had that hope, why did you take the troll bait?

You start off with the wrong assumption that because one particular system
of two phase was called two phase, that means that defines what two phase
means. To do this right, you first need to define what an N phase power
service would look like. Hint: It's not limited to 90 degrees phase
difference. I have defined it in the past, no one else has.

So, here are your questions. Let's take your second example of what you
say was the old two phase power, ie 90 deg phase difference, three wires with
a common return. I changed the phase difference to 70 deg by rotating
one of the windings on the generator. Are there
still two phases there? Now I change it to 179 deg, are there still
two phases there? I change it to 181, are there still two phases there?
I change it to 180 deg, are there still two phases
there? And how is the latter any electrically different than the
3 wire 240/120V service going into a home? Describe how I could tell
from the panel in your house which of the two I had, how they are
electrically different, how they behave differently?

This is based on semantics without definitions and reliance on what
something was historically, not electrical engineering. Would I call
240/120V, two phase? No, because it's not commonly referred to as that,
but that does not change the fact as to what's actually there, you
have two 120V sources that are 180 deg out of phase with each other.

Are they 180 degrees? or 120 degrees. Most AC is distributed as three-phase
power. Each neighborhood here gets one of the three phases from the
the power yard where the incoming three-phase 115kVAC is transformed to
21kVAC or 12kVAC (depending on age of neighborhood) for distribution. That means the
two hot conductors at the service entrance are drived from two of the three
distribution phases, which would make them 120 degrees apart.

Missed this earlier. First you say that each neighborhood gets one
of the three phases, then you say the typical transformer is connected
between TWO phases, which would be impossible if there is only one
phase going to a neighborhood. The first part is what I see here mostly,
except it's not each neighborhood it's one transformer is connected
to one of the primary phases and it serves a few houses. The next
transformer is connected to typically a different primary phase, etc.

On Mon, 09 Sep 2019 18:33:13 GMT, (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

I see the typical residential transformer connected with one high
voltage lead going to one primary, not connected across two.

That's certainly not typical. We're fed from a 12kv primary (two
current carrying conductors) which is transformed to 240v for distribution to a
dozen or so homes. All underground from the nearest substation to
the distribution transformer and underground (direct burial) to the
service entrance.

You have Delta distribution but Wye is very popular.

.. http://gfretwell.com/electrical/transformer.jpg

The downside of Wye is you are using the ground as a current path and
there is some objectionable current on grounding conductors. That is
also true of the typical service since earth parallels the neutral in
the drop but not as pronounced as it is with Wye distribution. PoCos
like it because it saves one wire.

On Mon, 09 Sep 2019 16:46:38 GMT, (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

trader_4 writes:
On Sunday, September 8, 2019 at 7:12:34 PM UTC-4, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article ,
says...

Do you have single-phase or two-phase electric service?
No such thing as 2 phase



There is (was). What is split phase in most of the US is mistakenly
called 2 phase by some. However there really is 2 phase.
I hop ewe don't have to go through the same old 400 postings about this.

If you had that hope, why did you take the troll bait?

You start off with the wrong assumption that because one particular system
of two phase was called two phase, that means that defines what two phase
means. To do this right, you first need to define what an N phase power
service would look like. Hint: It's not limited to 90 degrees phase
difference. I have defined it in the past, no one else has.

So, here are your questions. Let's take your second example of what you
say was the old two phase power, ie 90 deg phase difference, three wires with
a common return. I changed the phase difference to 70 deg by rotating
one of the windings on the generator. Are there
still two phases there? Now I change it to 179 deg, are there still
two phases there? I change it to 181, are there still two phases there?
I change it to 180 deg, are there still two phases
there? And how is the latter any electrically different than the
3 wire 240/120V service going into a home? Describe how I could tell
from the panel in your house which of the two I had, how they are
electrically different, how they behave differently?

This is based on semantics without definitions and reliance on what
something was historically, not electrical engineering. Would I call
240/120V, two phase? No, because it's not commonly referred to as that,
but that does not change the fact as to what's actually there, you
have two 120V sources that are 180 deg out of phase with each other.

Are they 180 degrees? or 120 degrees. Most AC is distributed as three-phase
power. Each neighborhood here gets one of the three phases from the
the power yard where the incoming three-phase 115kVAC is transformed to
21kVAC or 12kVAC (depending on age of neighborhood) for distribution. That means the
two hot conductors at the service entrance are drived from two of the three
distribution phases, which would make them 120 degrees apart. That phase is split
using a grounded conductor (AKA Neutral) into two 120VAC circuits.

Medium voltage is typically single phase when it hits the distribution
transformer, either as single ended wye distribution (one hot and one
neutral) or delta distribution (2 hots) but that is still single phase
if the 3d phase is not present on the hubs. The output of the
transformer is also single phase that gets divided with a center tap.
That is how professionals describe it, no matter what contortions
people go through to explain it to morons.

On 9/9/2019 8:12 PM, wrote:
Medium voltage is typically single phase when it hits the distribution
transformer, either as single ended wye distribution (one hot and one
neutral) or delta distribution (2 hots) but that is still single phase
if the 3d phase is not present on the hubs. The output of the
transformer is also single phase that gets divided with a center tap.
That is how professionals describe it, no matter what contortions
people go through to explain it to morons.

Exactly!

I have a Siemens breaker panel and a Generac ATS, both labeled single phase.Â* Only a moron would claim it's 2-phase.

On Mon, 9 Sep 2019 15:02:23 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Monday, September 9, 2019 at 12:46:42 PM UTC-4, Scott Lurndal wrote:
trader_4 writes:
On Sunday, September 8, 2019 at 7:12:34 PM UTC-4, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article ,
says...

Do you have single-phase or two-phase electric service?
No such thing as 2 phase



There is (was). What is split phase in most of the US is mistakenly
called 2 phase by some. However there really is 2 phase.
I hop ewe don't have to go through the same old 400 postings about this.

If you had that hope, why did you take the troll bait?

You start off with the wrong assumption that because one particular system
of two phase was called two phase, that means that defines what two phase
means. To do this right, you first need to define what an N phase power
service would look like. Hint: It's not limited to 90 degrees phase
difference. I have defined it in the past, no one else has.

So, here are your questions. Let's take your second example of what you
say was the old two phase power, ie 90 deg phase difference, three wires with
a common return. I changed the phase difference to 70 deg by rotating
one of the windings on the generator. Are there
still two phases there? Now I change it to 179 deg, are there still
two phases there? I change it to 181, are there still two phases there?
I change it to 180 deg, are there still two phases
there? And how is the latter any electrically different than the
3 wire 240/120V service going into a home? Describe how I could tell
from the panel in your house which of the two I had, how they are
electrically different, how they behave differently?

This is based on semantics without definitions and reliance on what
something was historically, not electrical engineering. Would I call
240/120V, two phase? No, because it's not commonly referred to as that,
but that does not change the fact as to what's actually there, you
have two 120V sources that are 180 deg out of phase with each other.

Are they 180 degrees? or 120 degrees. Most AC is distributed as three-phase
power. Each neighborhood here gets one of the three phases from the
the power yard where the incoming three-phase 115kVAC is transformed to
21kVAC or 12kVAC (depending on age of neighborhood) for distribution. That means the
two hot conductors at the service entrance are drived from two of the three
distribution phases, which would make them 120 degrees apart.

Missed this earlier. First you say that each neighborhood gets one
of the three phases, then you say the typical transformer is connected
between TWO phases, which would be impossible if there is only one
phase going to a neighborhood. The first part is what I see here mostly,
except it's not each neighborhood it's one transformer is connected
to one of the primary phases and it serves a few houses. The next
transformer is connected to typically a different primary phase, etc.

My neighborhood in Maryland had delta distribution with 2 phases
feeding each transformer. I screwed with them, about red leg three
phase but they would not put that in a 1&2 family. It would have only
cost them one more transformer but no dice.

On Monday, September 9, 2019 at 8:12:03 PM UTC-4, wrote:
using a grounded conductor (AKA Neutral) into two 120VAC circuits.

Medium voltage is typically single phase when it hits the distribution
transformer, either as single ended wye distribution (one hot and one
neutral) or delta distribution (2 hots) but that is still single phase
if the 3d phase is not present on the hubs. The output of the
transformer is also single phase that gets divided with a center tap.
That is how professionals describe it, no matter what contortions
people go through to explain it to morons.

Not this professional, who I've cited before. An IEEE fellow, professor
of electrical engineering, power industry consultant, presenting
a paper at a power engineering conference:

https://www.researchgate.net/publica...condary_Models

Center-Tapped Transformer and 120-/240-V Secondary Models

Distribution engineers have treated the standard ldquosingle-phaserdquo distribution transformer connection as single phase because, from the primary side of the transformer, these connections are single phase and, in the case of standard rural distribution, single phase line to ground. However, with the advent of detailed circuit modeling, we are beginning to see distribution modeling and analysis being accomplished past the transformer to the secondary, which now brings into focus the reality that standard 120-/240-V secondary systems are not single-phase line-to-ground systems, but they are three-wire systems with two phases and one ground wire. Furthermore, the standard 120-/240-V secondary system is different from the two-phase primary system in that the secondary phases are separated by 180deg instead of three phases separated by 120deg"


And then he proceeds to analyze the circuit back to the transformer,
treating it as two voltage sources that are 180 deg out of phase,
applying basic electrical engineering principles. Exactly what I've
said. And you have to treat it that way, there is no other way to
correctly analyze it, which is the point of the paper.

I'm sure he could and would answer the simple questions I posed too,
about changing the phase of Ralph's old 90 deg two phase power to 79 deg,
130 deg, 179 deg or 180 deg, which none of you can answer. I can answer
them, the professor can too, because we understand definitions and
approach it all logically and systematically. We don't rely on an
example of one implementation from 100 years ago and claim that is
what defines phases. That;s the beauty and elegance of science,
it all fits together, we don't make it up as we go.

Sine(wt)
Sine(wt+ O)

O = 90 deg, you have Ralph's example
O = 180 deg, you have split-phase
O = 360 deg, you have two sources in perfect sync

In your world, for some unknown reason, when O=180, we must fall into
some mysterious black hole, where the same rules that apply everywhere
else, no longer apply. In my experience, science and engineering does
not work that way.

trader_4 writes:
On Monday, September 9, 2019 at 3:40:45 PM UTC-4, Dean Hoffman wrote:


And sometimes I see just one primary going down a road too. Just depends
on what the current loads and expected loads are. That's a good picture of
exactly what I was describing, very common here. Pole transformer
connected between one primary and the primary neutral.

Primary doesn't have a neutral.

On Tuesday, September 10, 2019 at 9:44:58 AM UTC-4, Scott Lurndal wrote:
trader_4 writes:
On Monday, September 9, 2019 at 3:40:45 PM UTC-4, Dean Hoffman wrote:


And sometimes I see just one primary going down a road too. Just depends
on what the current loads and expected loads are. That's a good picture of
exactly what I was describing, very common here. Pole transformer
connected between one primary and the primary neutral.

Primary doesn't have a neutral.

Of course it does in a wye configuration. Did you look at all those
pictures of pole transformers I posted links to? One connection on top
of the transformer to one primary phase,, the other side is connected
to the neutral, you can see the neutral in some of those pics.

On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 06:40:50 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

An IEEE fellow, professor
of electrical engineering,

I am talking about people in the trade, not some professor who has
never touched a piece of wire.
Terms have meanings. When you have to blur the nomenclature to get
novices to understand you corrupt the meaning of the term.

On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 07:01:54 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Tuesday, September 10, 2019 at 9:44:58 AM UTC-4, Scott Lurndal wrote:
trader_4 writes:
On Monday, September 9, 2019 at 3:40:45 PM UTC-4, Dean Hoffman wrote:


And sometimes I see just one primary going down a road too. Just depends
on what the current loads and expected loads are. That's a good picture of
exactly what I was describing, very common here. Pole transformer
connected between one primary and the primary neutral.

Primary doesn't have a neutral.

Of course it does in a wye configuration. Did you look at all those
pictures of pole transformers I posted links to? One connection on top
of the transformer to one primary phase,, the other side is connected
to the neutral, you can see the neutral in some of those pics.

Again we are talking about the meaning of terms.
"Primaries" refers to the "ungrounded" conductors feeding the input of
a transformer. The NFPA is really trying to get away from the term
"Neutral" because it gets misused so often and they prefer "Grounded
Conductor".
You notice that replacing neutral more in every cycle.

On Tuesday, September 10, 2019 at 11:56:17 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 06:40:50 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

An IEEE fellow, professor
of electrical engineering,

I am talking about people in the trade, not some professor who has
never touched a piece of wire.
Terms have meanings. When you have to blur the nomenclature to get
novices to understand you corrupt the meaning of the term.

In other words, you can't handle the most basic electrical engineering
principles that show electrically what that service is. It's like
denying that tissues are actually a soft paper product made from
trees and insisting that they are just Kleenex, that's all they are,
that's all they ever can be, because that's how they are commonly
referred to.

On 9/10/19 12:05 PM, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, September 10, 2019 at 11:56:17 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 06:40:50 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

An IEEE fellow, professor
of electrical engineering,

I am talking about people in the trade, not some professor who has
never touched a piece of wire.
Terms have meanings. When you have to blur the nomenclature to get
novices to understand you corrupt the meaning of the term.

In other words, you can't handle the most basic electrical engineering
principles that show electrically what that service is. It's like
denying that tissues are actually a soft paper product made from
trees and insisting that they are just Kleenex, that's all they are,
that's all they ever can be, because that's how they are commonly
referred to.




The ubiquitous AA alkaline battery is two phase as well.
If you check the battery voltage, you'll have +1.5 volts.
If you reverse the leads on a voltmeter, you'll have a negative -1.5 volt phase.

On 9/10/19 9:40 AM, trader_4 wrote:
Not this professional, who I've cited before. An IEEE fellow, professor
of electrical engineering, power industry consultant, presenting
a paper at a power engineering conference:

https://www.researchgate.net/publica...condary_Models


Every electrical manufacturer in the US calls it single phase.

You and some nutty professor call it two phase.

You might want to rethink your strategy.

On Tuesday, September 10, 2019 at 12:35:31 PM UTC-4, Professor Nutley wrote:
On 9/10/19 12:05 PM, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, September 10, 2019 at 11:56:17 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 06:40:50 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

An IEEE fellow, professor
of electrical engineering,

I am talking about people in the trade, not some professor who has
never touched a piece of wire.
Terms have meanings. When you have to blur the nomenclature to get
novices to understand you corrupt the meaning of the term.

In other words, you can't handle the most basic electrical engineering
principles that show electrically what that service is. It's like
denying that tissues are actually a soft paper product made from
trees and insisting that they are just Kleenex, that's all they are,
that's all they ever can be, because that's how they are commonly
referred to.




The ubiquitous AA alkaline battery is two phase as well.
If you check the battery voltage, you'll have +1.5 volts.
If you reverse the leads on a voltmeter, you'll have a negative -1.5 volt phase.


Phase only applies to sources with periodic waveforms. What you're
talking about with a DC source is polarity.

On Tuesday, September 10, 2019 at 12:43:40 PM UTC-4, devnull wrote:
On 9/10/19 9:40 AM, trader_4 wrote:
Not this professional, who I've cited before. An IEEE fellow, professor
of electrical engineering, power industry consultant, presenting
a paper at a power engineering conference:

https://www.researchgate.net/publica...condary_Models


Every electrical manufacturer in the US calls it single phase.

You and some nutty professor call it two phase.

You might want to rethink your strategy.

You might want to improve your reading comprehension skills. Neither I
nor the professor said that we would call it two phase. Only that what
is actual there are two voltage sources, two phases that are 180 deg out
of phase with each other. Again, your silly argument is like saying
that because tissues are called Kleenex, that someone who analyzes
them, correctly applies science and says they are a soft paper product
made from trees, is wrong.

How would you draw a Thevenin equivalent circuit that represents the
transformer delivering power to a house?

On 9/10/19 12:57 PM, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, September 10, 2019 at 12:35:31 PM UTC-4, Professor Nutley wrote:
On 9/10/19 12:05 PM, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, September 10, 2019 at 11:56:17 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 06:40:50 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

An IEEE fellow, professor
of electrical engineering,

I am talking about people in the trade, not some professor who has
never touched a piece of wire.
Terms have meanings. When you have to blur the nomenclature to get
novices to understand you corrupt the meaning of the term.

In other words, you can't handle the most basic electrical engineering
principles that show electrically what that service is. It's like
denying that tissues are actually a soft paper product made from
trees and insisting that they are just Kleenex, that's all they are,
that's all they ever can be, because that's how they are commonly
referred to.




The ubiquitous AA alkaline battery is two phase as well.
If you check the battery voltage, you'll have +1.5 volts.
If you reverse the leads on a voltmeter, you'll have a negative -1.5 volt phase.


Phase only applies to sources with periodic waveforms. What you're
talking about with a DC source is polarity.


No, a battery is just a square wave two phase.

On 9/10/19 1:05 PM, trader_4 wrote:
You might want to improve your reading comprehension skills. Neither I
nor the professor said that we would call it two phase. Only that what
is actual there are two voltage sources, two phases that are 180 deg out
of phase with each other.

You only *appear* to have two phases when you hook one pair of your oscilloscope leads up backwards.