[snip]

You start off with the wrong assumption that because one particular system
of two phase was called two phase, that means that defines what two phase
means. To do this right, you first need to define what an N phase power
service would look like. Hint: It's not limited to 90 degrees phase
difference. I have defined it in the past, no one else has.

So, here are your questions. Let's take your second example of what you
say was the old two phase power, ie 90 deg phase difference, three wires with
a common return. I changed the phase difference to 70 deg by rotating
one of the windings on the generator. Are there
still two phases there? Now I change it to 179 deg, are there still
two phases there? I change it to 181, are there still two phases there?
I change it to 180 deg, are there still two phases
there? And how is the latter any electrically different than the
3 wire 240/120V service going into a home? Describe how I could tell
from the panel in your house which of the two I had, how they are
electrically different, how they behave differently?

This is based on semantics without definitions and reliance on what
something was historically, not electrical engineering. Would I call
240/120V, two phase? No, because it's not commonly referred to as that,
but that does not change the fact as to what's actually there, you
have two 120V sources that are 180 deg out of phase with each other.

Whether you have 1 phase or 2 depends on the reference point, either the
middle of the (center tapped) transformer secondary or one end. It seems
normal to use the point that's grounded.

120V, 120V (2 phases, 180 deg. apart))

or

120V, 240V (same phase)

Some people seem to be confusing this with the single phase at the
transformer primary.

--
106 days until the winter celebration (Wed, Dec 25, 2019 12:00:00 AM for
1 day).

"God has done nothing for men and women except to scare them out of
their wits." [Lemuel K. Washburn, _Is The Bible Worth Reading And Other
Essays_]

On 9/9/19 4:28 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:

[snip]

I don't intend to get into a discussion over this, Just wanted to point
out that by definition there is/was 2 phase in a few parts of the US.

That describes a 2-phase system (phases 90 degrees apart, and I don't
think anyone here disagrees with that. That they do disagree with is
that being 2-phase keeps anything else from being 2-phase. "2" and
"phase" are WORDS, and not restricted to a single instance.

It does not matter what anyone says, there is a certain definition
for 2 phase.

And that isn't it. It is an EXAMPLE of a 2-phase system.

It's as if the first truck you ever saw was a propane delivery truck, so
you think dump trucks can't really be trucks.

[SPAM snipped]

On 9/9/19 4:33 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:

[snip]

When derived from 2 phases of a 3 phase supply you get 120 and 208
(the sum of 120 degree out of phase)

I'm not sure if it's the way you're supposed to figure it, but

240 * sin(120)

is approximately 208. I haven't seen it, but have heard of large
apartment buildings wired that way.

--
106 days until the winter celebration (Wed, Dec 25, 2019 12:00:00 AM for
1 day).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"Do not fear to be eccentric in opinion, for every opinion now accepted
was once eccentric." -- Bertrand Russel

In article ,
lid says...

Whether you have 1 phase or 2 depends on the reference point, either the
middle of the (center tapped) transformer secondary or one end. It seems
normal to use the point that's grounded.




Just as if you have a person on the north pole and one on the south pole
of the earth. They are standing and extend their right hand past their
head. Which one is pointing up ?

If you are a space ship and can see them both. The seem to be pointing
in opposit directions. So then which one is point up ?


---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

[snip]

In your world, for some unknown reason, when O=180, we must fall into
some mysterious black hole, where the same rules that apply everywhere
else, no longer apply. In my experience, science and engineering does
not work that way.

It's been a long time since I learned to be suspicious of
discontinuities like that (like that second phase being fine at 179 or
181, but ceasing to exist at 180). It's one way of knowing when a thing
can't be true.

--
106 days until the winter celebration (Wed, Dec 25, 2019 12:00:00 AM for
1 day).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"Do not fear to be eccentric in opinion, for every opinion now accepted
was once eccentric." -- Bertrand Russel

On 9/10/19 8:44 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
trader_4 writes:
On Monday, September 9, 2019 at 3:40:45 PM UTC-4, Dean Hoffman wrote:


And sometimes I see just one primary going down a road too. Just depends
on what the current loads and expected loads are. That's a good picture of
exactly what I was describing, very common here. Pole transformer
connected between one primary and the primary neutral.

Primary doesn't have a neutral.

One end of the primary connects to a live wire. What is the other end
connected to?

--
106 days until the winter celebration (Wed, Dec 25, 2019 12:00:00 AM for
1 day).

"God has done nothing for men and women except to scare them out of
their wits." [Lemuel K. Washburn, _Is The Bible Worth Reading And Other
Essays_]

On Tuesday, September 10, 2019 at 3:36:48 PM UTC-4, Joe W wrote:
On 9/9/19 4:28 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:

[snip]

I don't intend to get into a discussion over this, Just wanted to point
out that by definition there is/was 2 phase in a few parts of the US.

That describes a 2-phase system (phases 90 degrees apart, and I don't
think anyone here disagrees with that. That they do disagree with is
that being 2-phase keeps anything else from being 2-phase. "2" and
"phase" are WORDS, and not restricted to a single instance.

It does not matter what anyone says, there is a certain definition
for 2 phase.

And that isn't it. It is an EXAMPLE of a 2-phase system.

It's as if the first truck you ever saw was a propane delivery truck, so
you think dump trucks can't really be trucks.

[SPAM snipped]

Exactly. And again, since no one will attempt to give a definition of
N phase power, I'll give you what I think a sound definition is:


A power delivery method utilizing N sources that are periodic,
of the same frequency, that differ in phase.

And then it becomes where do you look, what are you analyzing.
If one looks at the primary
side of the transformer, then clearly there is only one phase.
However if you look at the secondary side, the three wires going into
the house, then you have two sources, ie the the two halves of the
transformer that are 180 deg out of phase with each other.
Which is what that IEEE paper is about, how you have to treat it as
such to analyze it. For example, if there is reactive loading on
one side of the transformer, purely resistive loads on the other,
then the voltage and current waveforms on one side can have a
phase difference from the other side of the same transformer.
That is what the professor was pointing out, in terms of how it has
to be treated and analyzed.

On Sun, 08 Sep 2019 10:56:08 +0100, Jack Legg Handyman Service LLC wrote:

On 9/8/19 1:44 AM, Bill H. wrote:
I have single light switch, three romex in ceiling box, TWO LED panel lights
are running out of ceiling box. I want to add TWO more LED drop in panels.
I need to know HOW to add these. Breaker Box turns off electrical outlet, stairs, BOTH LED lights, AND
additional lights in other basement room.
HELP PLEASE!

First and foremost, you need to obtain an electrical permit from your local taxing authority. The permit and inspection in my locale would run ~$250.
Then, and only then, can you shove more wires in that overstuffed ceiling box.

A permit to add lights in your own house. Are you mental?

On 9/10/19 11:35 AM, Professor Nutley wrote:

[snip]

The ubiquitous AA alkaline battery is two phase as well.
If you check the battery voltage, you'll have +1.5 volts.
If you reverse the leads on a voltmeter, you'll have a negative -1.5
volt phase.

"one or the other" is not the same as 2-phase.

--
106 days until the winter celebration (Wed, Dec 25, 2019 12:00:00 AM for
1 day).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"Do not fear to be eccentric in opinion, for every opinion now accepted
was once eccentric." -- Bertrand Russel

[snip]

No, a battery is just a square wave two phase.

That's a really unusual battery, that keeps reversing polarity. Anyway,
you'd just be getting one phase.

--
106 days until the winter celebration (Wed, Dec 25, 2019 12:00:00 AM for
1 day).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"Do not fear to be eccentric in opinion, for every opinion now accepted
was once eccentric." -- Bertrand Russel

On 9/10/19 1:01 PM, devnull wrote:
On 9/10/19 1:05 PM, trader_4 wrote:
You might want to improve your reading comprehension skills.Â* Neither I
nor the professor said that we would call it two phase.Â* Only that what
is actual there are two voltage sources, two phases that are 180 deg out
of phase with each other.

You only *appear* to have two phases when you hook one pair of your
oscilloscope leads up backwards.

On the secondary side of the transformer, you have 2 voltage sources
(both the same voltage). If the phase is the same also, you could
connect both together, for more current.

--
106 days until the winter celebration (Wed, Dec 25, 2019 12:00:00 AM for
1 day).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"Do not fear to be eccentric in opinion, for every opinion now accepted
was once eccentric." -- Bertrand Russel

On Tuesday, September 10, 2019 at 4:32:09 PM UTC-4, Mark Lloyd wrote:
On 9/10/19 1:01 PM, devnull wrote:
On 9/10/19 1:05 PM, trader_4 wrote:
You might want to improve your reading comprehension skills.Â* Neither I
nor the professor said that we would call it two phase.Â* Only that what
is actual there are two voltage sources, two phases that are 180 deg out
of phase with each other.

You only *appear* to have two phases when you hook one pair of your
oscilloscope leads up backwards.

On the secondary side of the transformer, you have 2 voltage sources
(both the same voltage). If the phase is the same also, you could
connect both together, for more current.


That's true and it also demonstrates that when you treat the transformer
as what it is, two voltage sources differing in phase, it's all
covered. With phase difference of zero, you would have two voltage
sources in perfect sync that could deliver current from both,
like you just said.
With phase difference of 180, you have two sources that deliver
120V with respect to the neutral, or 240V between the two sources.
With phase difference of 90, you have Ralph's two phase from 100 years
ago.

On 9/10/19 3:11 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:

[snip]

Just as if you have a person on the north pole and one on the south pole
of the earth. They are standing and extend their right hand past their
head. Which one is pointing up ?

If you are a space ship and can see them both. The seem to be pointing
in opposit directions. So then which one is point up ?

In that case, what is UP?

Look in a mirror and point to the right with your right arm. The image
in the mirror is pointing to the left with its left arm, but you both
are pointing in the same direction. The mirror image is not reversed
left-right, it's left and right that are reversed.

As to that transformer, what is your point of reference when measuring
phase?

[spam snipped]

--
106 days until the winter celebration (Wed, Dec 25, 2019 12:00:00 AM for
1 day).

"God has done nothing for men and women except to scare them out of
their wits." [Lemuel K. Washburn, _Is The Bible Worth Reading And Other
Essays_]

On 9/10/2019 4:19 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 08 Sep 2019 10:56:08 +0100, Jack Legg Handyman Service LLC wrote:

On 9/8/19 1:44 AM, Bill H. wrote:
I have single light switch, three romex in ceiling box, TWO LED panel lights
are running out of ceiling box.* I want to add TWO more LED drop in panels.
I need to know HOW to add these. Breaker Box turns off electrical outlet, stairs, BOTH LED lights, AND
additional lights in other basement room.
HELP PLEASE!

First and foremost, you need to obtain an electrical permit from your local taxing authority.* The permit and inspection in my locale would run ~$250.
Then, and only then, can you shove more wires in that overstuffed ceiling box.

A permit to add lights in your own house.* Are you mental?


If you follow the law, in my township you'd need an electric permit for 1 circuit at a cost of $110.

Upon completion of the work,* you'd need a one circuit inspection at an additional charge of* $125

....if you follow the law, LOL.

On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 23:18:46 +0100, Mike Oxbern wrote:

On 9/10/2019 4:19 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 08 Sep 2019 10:56:08 +0100, Jack Legg Handyman Service LLC wrote:

On 9/8/19 1:44 AM, Bill H. wrote:
I have single light switch, three romex in ceiling box, TWO LED panel lights
are running out of ceiling box. I want to add TWO more LED drop in panels.
I need to know HOW to add these. Breaker Box turns off electrical outlet, stairs, BOTH LED lights, AND
additional lights in other basement room.
HELP PLEASE!

First and foremost, you need to obtain an electrical permit from your local taxing authority. The permit and inspection in my locale would run ~$250.
Then, and only then, can you shove more wires in that overstuffed ceiling box.

A permit to add lights in your own house. Are you mental?


If you follow the law, in my township you'd need an electric permit for 1 circuit at a cost of $110.

Upon completion of the work, you'd need a one circuit inspection at an additional charge of $125

...if you follow the law, LOL.

I thought it was bad here. We only need permits for gas works, or for buildings which can be seen by neighbours. For some reason this excludes conservatories (which are classed as a temporary building?!?), garages, and sheds, as long as they are only 1 storey high. And no I didn't inform anyone when I moved my own gas main. It's MY gas main.

On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 09:05:05 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Tuesday, September 10, 2019 at 11:56:17 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 06:40:50 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

An IEEE fellow, professor
of electrical engineering,

I am talking about people in the trade, not some professor who has
never touched a piece of wire.
Terms have meanings. When you have to blur the nomenclature to get
novices to understand you corrupt the meaning of the term.

In other words, you can't handle the most basic electrical engineering
principles that show electrically what that service is. It's like
denying that tissues are actually a soft paper product made from
trees and insisting that they are just Kleenex, that's all they are,
that's all they ever can be, because that's how they are commonly
referred to.


No people in the trade where there is life on the line use very
specific terms. Blurring them to make concepts understandable for new
students or homeowners is not what they choose to do.

On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 09:57:35 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Tuesday, September 10, 2019 at 12:35:31 PM UTC-4, Professor Nutley wrote:
On 9/10/19 12:05 PM, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, September 10, 2019 at 11:56:17 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 06:40:50 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

An IEEE fellow, professor
of electrical engineering,

I am talking about people in the trade, not some professor who has
never touched a piece of wire.
Terms have meanings. When you have to blur the nomenclature to get
novices to understand you corrupt the meaning of the term.

In other words, you can't handle the most basic electrical engineering
principles that show electrically what that service is. It's like
denying that tissues are actually a soft paper product made from
trees and insisting that they are just Kleenex, that's all they are,
that's all they ever can be, because that's how they are commonly
referred to.




The ubiquitous AA alkaline battery is two phase as well.
If you check the battery voltage, you'll have +1.5 volts.
If you reverse the leads on a voltmeter, you'll have a negative -1.5 volt phase.


Phase only applies to sources with periodic waveforms. What you're
talking about with a DC source is polarity.

It really depends on how fast you can flip a battery over doesn't ?
See what happens when you start confusing terms.

On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 14:01:50 -0400, devnull wrote:

On 9/10/19 1:05 PM, trader_4 wrote:
You might want to improve your reading comprehension skills. Neither I
nor the professor said that we would call it two phase. Only that what
is actual there are two voltage sources, two phases that are 180 deg out
of phase with each other.

You only *appear* to have two phases when you hook one pair of your oscilloscope leads up backwards.

Actually you mean when you hook your scope up in the center of the
single phase winding. I can do the same thing with 2 AA cells and make
it look like the plus end of one battery is actually minus.

On Tuesday, September 10, 2019 at 8:16:05 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 09:05:05 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Tuesday, September 10, 2019 at 11:56:17 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 06:40:50 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

An IEEE fellow, professor
of electrical engineering,

I am talking about people in the trade, not some professor who has
never touched a piece of wire.
Terms have meanings. When you have to blur the nomenclature to get
novices to understand you corrupt the meaning of the term.

In other words, you can't handle the most basic electrical engineering
principles that show electrically what that service is. It's likeOh, p
denying that tissues are actually a soft paper product made from
trees and insisting that they are just Kleenex, that's all they are,
that's all they ever can be, because that's how they are commonly
referred to.


No people in the trade where there is life on the line use very
specific terms. Blurring them to make concepts understandable for new
students or homeowners is not what they choose to do.

Oh, please stop with the "life on the line' nonsense, like a discussion
about phase is going to kill people. And how about
answering the very simple questions I posed to Ralph:



Let's take your second example of what you
say was the old two phase power, ie 90 deg phase difference, three wires with
a common return. I changed the phase difference to 70 deg by rotating
one of the windings on the generator. Are there
still two phases there? Now I change it to 179 deg, are there still
two phases there? I change it to 181, are there still two phases there?
I change it to 180 deg, are there still two phases
there? And how is the latter any electrically different than the
3 wire 240/120V service going into a home? Describe how I could tell
from the panel in your house which of the two power sources I had
supplying it, 240/120 from pole a transformer or two phase from
Ralph's generator that I changed to 180 deg phase shift. How are
they electrically different, how do they behave differently?

On Tuesday, September 10, 2019 at 8:22:06 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 14:01:50 -0400, devnull wrote:

On 9/10/19 1:05 PM, trader_4 wrote:
You might want to improve your reading comprehension skills. Neither I
nor the professor said that we would call it two phase. Only that what
is actual there are two voltage sources, two phases that are 180 deg out
of phase with each other.

You only *appear* to have two phases when you hook one pair of your oscilloscope leads up backwards.

Actually you mean when you hook your scope up in the center of the
single phase winding. I can do the same thing with 2 AA cells and make
it look like the plus end of one battery is actually minus.

Yes, how very unreasonable to hook up a scope using the system neutral,
the system reference point. Is that like an unfair magic trick?
And no, it's not hooking up the scope
backwards. Connect the ground clip to the SYSTEM NEUTRAL. Connect
one probe to L1 you get one sine wave. Connect the other probe to
L2, you get the inverse, 180 phase difference sine wave. Which of
course is exactly what the power source is, two sine wave sources
that are 180 out of phase with each other.

On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 14:40:44 -0500, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

On 9/9/19 4:33 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:

[snip]

When derived from 2 phases of a 3 phase supply you get 120 and 208
(the sum of 120 degree out of phase)

I'm not sure if it's the way you're supposed to figure it, but

240 * sin(120)

is approximately 208. I haven't seen it, but have heard of large
apartment buildings wired that way.
You got it correct. Step to the head of this class.

On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 15:16:47 -0500, Sam E
wrote:

On 9/10/19 8:44 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
trader_4 writes:
On Monday, September 9, 2019 at 3:40:45 PM UTC-4, Dean Hoffman wrote:


And sometimes I see just one primary going down a road too. Just depends
on what the current loads and expected loads are. That's a good picture of
exactly what I was describing, very common here. Pole transformer
connected between one primary and the primary neutral.

Primary doesn't have a neutral.

One end of the primary connects to a live wire. What is the other end
connected to?
Another live wire that is 180 dergrees out of phase.

On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 18:18:46 -0400, Mike Oxbern
wrote:

On 9/10/2019 4:19 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 08 Sep 2019 10:56:08 +0100, Jack Legg Handyman Service LLC wrote:

On 9/8/19 1:44 AM, Bill H. wrote:
I have single light switch, three romex in ceiling box, TWO LED panel lights
are running out of ceiling box.* I want to add TWO more LED drop in panels.
I need to know HOW to add these. Breaker Box turns off electrical outlet, stairs, BOTH LED lights, AND
additional lights in other basement room.
HELP PLEASE!

First and foremost, you need to obtain an electrical permit from your local taxing authority.* The permit and inspection in my locale would run ~$250.
Then, and only then, can you shove more wires in that overstuffed ceiling box.

A permit to add lights in your own house.* Are you mental?


If you follow the law, in my township you'd need an electric permit for 1 circuit at a cost of $110.

Upon completion of the work,* you'd need a one circuit inspection at an additional charge of* $125

...if you follow the law, LOL.

Here it is NOT the "taxing authority" - it is the ESA - the
"Electrical Safety Authority"

On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 20:16:39 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 09:05:05 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Tuesday, September 10, 2019 at 11:56:17 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 06:40:50 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

An IEEE fellow, professor
of electrical engineering,

I am talking about people in the trade, not some professor who has
never touched a piece of wire.
Terms have meanings. When you have to blur the nomenclature to get
novices to understand you corrupt the meaning of the term.

In other words, you can't handle the most basic electrical engineering
principles that show electrically what that service is. It's like
denying that tissues are actually a soft paper product made from
trees and insisting that they are just Kleenex, that's all they are,
that's all they ever can be, because that's how they are commonly
referred to.


No people in the trade where there is life on the line use very
specific terms. Blurring them to make concepts understandable for new
students or homeowners is not what they choose to do.
Arguing with Trader is like wresting with a pig

On 9/10/19 9:11 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 15:16:47 -0500, Sam E
wrote:

On 9/10/19 8:44 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
trader_4 writes:
On Monday, September 9, 2019 at 3:40:45 PM UTC-4, Dean Hoffman wrote:


And sometimes I see just one primary going down a road too. Just depends
on what the current loads and expected loads are. That's a good picture of
exactly what I was describing, very common here. Pole transformer
connected between one primary and the primary neutral.

Primary doesn't have a neutral.

One end of the primary connects to a live wire. What is the other end
connected to?
Another live wire that is 180 dergrees out of phase.

Aren't they talking about that single wire earth return? That
must be really
rare. I don't remember seeing it anywhere in my little world. EXCEPT
for electric
fencers to keep livestock in.

In article ,
says...

No people in the trade where there is life on the line use very
specific terms. Blurring them to make concepts understandable for new
students or homeowners is not what they choose to do.
Arguing with Trader is like wresting with a pig



That is why I try to stay out of it. I just as I thought we would have
another 400 postings on the 2 phase thing.

The 2 phase electrical power system is well defined. Any other
discussion is just a twist of what the uninformed try to make out of it.

Just as you may say water boils at 212 deg F or 100 deg C. It only does
that when under a specific pressure and is pure water.

Water can actually boil over a range of less than room temperature to
several humdred degrees depending on how much pressure it is under.
even just exposed to the normal air, it will boil at a higher
temperature at places lower than sea level and lower temperature at the
top of a mountain.


---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 21:25:02 -0500, Dean Hoffman
wrote:

On 9/10/19 9:11 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 15:16:47 -0500, Sam E
wrote:

On 9/10/19 8:44 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
trader_4 writes:
On Monday, September 9, 2019 at 3:40:45 PM UTC-4, Dean Hoffman wrote:


And sometimes I see just one primary going down a road too. Just depends
on what the current loads and expected loads are. That's a good picture of
exactly what I was describing, very common here. Pole transformer
connected between one primary and the primary neutral.

Primary doesn't have a neutral.

One end of the primary connects to a live wire. What is the other end
connected to?
Another live wire that is 180 dergrees out of phase.

Aren't they talking about that single wire earth return? That
must be really
rare. I don't remember seeing it anywhere in my little world. EXCEPT
for electric
fencers to keep livestock in.
I believe it MAY still be in use in one of the western states of
the USA as well as a small portion of remote rural Saskatchewan, and
parts of the Australian outback - but it's use is declining steadily
even there. It WAS common in the rural electrification schemes of many
areas, but stray voltage issues with livestock, among other concerns,
has curtailed ot's use (voltage differential between water lines and
ground is a SERIOUS issue)

On 9/10/19 11:41 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
Water can actually boil over a range of less than room temperature to
several humdred degrees depending on how much pressure it is under.
even just exposed to the normal air, it will boil at a higher
temperature at places lower than sea level and lower temperature at the
top of a mountain.

Yes, water is 3-phase. ;-)

On Tuesday, September 10, 2019 at 10:16:05 PM UTC-4, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 20:16:39 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 09:05:05 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Tuesday, September 10, 2019 at 11:56:17 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 06:40:50 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

An IEEE fellow, professor
of electrical engineering,

I am talking about people in the trade, not some professor who has
never touched a piece of wire.
Terms have meanings. When you have to blur the nomenclature to get
novices to understand you corrupt the meaning of the term.

In other words, you can't handle the most basic electrical engineering
principles that show electrically what that service is. It's like
denying that tissues are actually a soft paper product made from
trees and insisting that they are just Kleenex, that's all they are,
that's all they ever can be, because that's how they are commonly
referred to.


No people in the trade where there is life on the line use very
specific terms. Blurring them to make concepts understandable for new
students or homeowners is not what they choose to do.
Arguing with Trader is like wresting with a pig

Figures that you'd weigh in with a stupid ad hominem attack.

Let's review. An obvious troll posted what was clearly a joke about
two phase. It was ignored, until YOU took the bait, you were so
dumb you not only couldn't see it was a troll but you responded
as if it was a serious remark, where it was obviously a joke.

Then later you posted this:

'The primary of the branch transformer is
accross ONE phase of the ncoming power,and the secondary is center
tapped - providing a "split" phase where each side of the service is
180 degrees out of phase with the other - making the voltage of the
two phases additive. "


Which of course is consistent with exactly what I've been saying.
Yet you then proceed to attack me, when I agree with you. You're
a real piece of work.

On Tuesday, September 10, 2019 at 11:41:08 PM UTC-4, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article ,
says...

No people in the trade where there is life on the line use very
specific terms. Blurring them to make concepts understandable for new
students or homeowners is not what they choose to do.
Arguing with Trader is like wresting with a pig



That is why I try to stay out of it. I just as I thought we would have
another 400 postings on the 2 phase thing.


If that's the case, why did you join Clare in taking the bait from
an obvious troll? Not only was it a troll, the post was clearly
a joke, not serious.






The 2 phase electrical power system is well defined. Any other
discussion is just a twist of what the uninformed try to make out of it.

You know you're getting really annoying. You have no technical
grounding in this and don't know what you're talking about.
We've been polite and reasonable. I tried to explain to you
that just because 100 years ago there was *one* example of a two
phase power system, that does not define what two phase is.
Joe tried to explain it to you too, saying that it's like
seeing a propane truck and then insisting that defines what a
truck is, that there can be no other trucks. Or saying that
because there was an implementation of 3 phase 480V, 60 hz,
that defines that 3 phase is and that if you had a system
with 3 phases at 400V, 50hz, or with theoretical phase angles
other than 120 degrees, that three phases are not still there.
If I took that 100 year old 90 deg two phase implementation and
move one winding by ten degrees, made it 100 instead of 90 deg,
would we still have two phases present? Or would the world
collapse into some kind of black hole?


No one disputes
that a hundred years ago there was a two phase power system.
That has nothing whatever to do with what the service coming
into a house looks like, what it is or isn't. I even gave you
an IEEE fellow, a professor of electrical engineering with
40 years experience, a guy who consults for power companies
as a source where he writes exactly about this issue, saying
that 240/120 is really a two phase power source. He gave this
paper at a power industry conference and it's published by the
IEEE, ie it's been peer reviewed:

https://www.researchgate.net/publica...condary_Models


Distribution engineers have treated the standard ldquosingle-phaserdquo distribution transformer connection as single phase because, from the primary side of the transformer, these connections are single phase and, in the case of standard rural distribution, single phase line to ground. However, with the advent of detailed circuit modeling, we are beginning to see distribution modeling and analysis being accomplished past the transformer to the secondary, which now brings into focus the reality that standard 120-/240-V secondary systems are not single-phase line-to-ground systems, but they are three-wire systems with two phases and one ground wire. Furthermore, the standard 120-/240-V secondary system is different from the two-phase primary system in that the secondary phases are separated by 180deg instead of three phases separated by 120deg. What all of this means is that analysis software and methods must now deal with an electrical system requiring a different set of algorithms than those used to model and analyze the primary system. This paper will describe the modeling and analysis of the single-phase center-tapped transformer serving 120- and 240-V single-phase loads from a three-wire secondary.






Just as you may say water boils at 212 deg F or 100 deg C. It only does
that when under a specific pressure and is pure water.

Water can actually boil over a range of less than room temperature to
several humdred degrees depending on how much pressure it is under.
even just exposed to the normal air, it will boil at a higher
temperature at places lower than sea level and lower temperature at the
top of a mountain.



Thanks for helping prove our point. Yes, water will boil at
different temperatures depending on the pressure. To apply this
to your case, your position is that water can only boil at 212F
because water was boiled in
Philadelphia in 1920 at 212F, end of story. Inquiring, intelligent
minds look at things like that and ask, what if it was at two
atmospheres pressure, what would change? would it still boil at
212F? And that's why I've posed those simple questions about
your example of two phase power from 100 years ago, to try to
get you to look at it logically. to analyze what is there, why
it was called two phase and how it relates to 240/120 today.
Here are those simple questions again;

Let's take your second example of what you
say was the old two phase power, ie 90 deg phase difference, three wires with
a common return. I changed the phase difference to 70 deg by rotating
one of the windings on the generator. Are there
still two phases there? Now I change it to 179 deg, are there still
two phases there? I change it to 181, are there still two phases there?
I change it to 180 deg, are there still two phases
there? And how is the latter any electrically different than the
3 wire 240/120V service going into a home? Describe how I could tell
from the panel in your house which of the two I had, the old
90 deg two phase morphed or split-phase and how they are
electrically different, how they behave differently?


But sadly neither you nor anyone else on the other side of this
will answer those simple questions, for obvious reasons. I've
answered all the questions put to me. You can do that when you
understand the electrical principles. For some reason, you prefer
to wander in the wilderness.

On Wed, 11 Sep 2019 03:13:52 +0100, Clare Snyder wrote:

On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 18:18:46 -0400, Mike Oxbern
wrote:

On 9/10/2019 4:19 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 08 Sep 2019 10:56:08 +0100, Jack Legg Handyman Service LLC wrote:

On 9/8/19 1:44 AM, Bill H. wrote:
I have single light switch, three romex in ceiling box, TWO LED panel lights
are running out of ceiling box. I want to add TWO more LED drop in panels.
I need to know HOW to add these. Breaker Box turns off electrical outlet, stairs, BOTH LED lights, AND
additional lights in other basement room.
HELP PLEASE!

First and foremost, you need to obtain an electrical permit from your local taxing authority. The permit and inspection in my locale would run ~$250.
Then, and only then, can you shove more wires in that overstuffed ceiling box.

A permit to add lights in your own house. Are you mental?


If you follow the law, in my township you'd need an electric permit for 1 circuit at a cost of $110.

Upon completion of the work, you'd need a one circuit inspection at an additional charge of $125

...if you follow the law, LOL.

Here it is NOT the "taxing authority" - it is the ESA - the
"Electrical Safety Authority"

Who said it was the taxing authority? And whatever name it is, it's just another nosy / money making government scheme.

On Wednesday, September 11, 2019 at 11:41:26 AM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Wed, 11 Sep 2019 03:13:52 +0100, Clare Snyder wrote:

On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 18:18:46 -0400, Mike Oxbern
wrote:

On 9/10/2019 4:19 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 08 Sep 2019 10:56:08 +0100, Jack Legg Handyman Service LLC wrote:

On 9/8/19 1:44 AM, Bill H. wrote:
I have single light switch, three romex in ceiling box, TWO LED panel lights
are running out of ceiling box. I want to add TWO more LED drop in panels.
I need to know HOW to add these. Breaker Box turns off electrical outlet, stairs, BOTH LED lights, AND
additional lights in other basement room.
HELP PLEASE!

First and foremost, you need to obtain an electrical permit from your local taxing authority. The permit and inspection in my locale would run ~$250.
Then, and only then, can you shove more wires in that overstuffed ceiling box.

A permit to add lights in your own house. Are you mental?


If you follow the law, in my township you'd need an electric permit for 1 circuit at a cost of $110.

Upon completion of the work, you'd need a one circuit inspection at an additional charge of $125

...if you follow the law, LOL.

Here it is NOT the "taxing authority" - it is the ESA - the
"Electrical Safety Authority"

Who said it was the taxing authority? And whatever name it is, it's just another nosy / money making government scheme.

The money typically winds up in the same bucket. I guess Clare is one
of those people they have won over with permit fees, registration fees,
user fees, etc. instead of calling it a tax.

On 9/10/19 7:18 PM, wrote:

[snip]

It really depends on how fast you can flip a battery over doesn't ?
See what happens when you start confusing terms.


No flipping speed will have it in both directions at the same time,
which you'd need for 2 phase.

--
105 days until the winter celebration (Wed, Dec 25, 2019 12:00:00 AM for
1 day).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"If our democracy is to flourish, it must have criticism; if our
government is to function, it must have dissent." -- Henry Steele

On 9/10/19 10:41 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:

[snip]


The 2 phase electrical power system is well defined. Any other
discussion is just a twist of what the uninformed try to make out of it.

I'm pointing at my 1996 Honda Accord, "THIS is a car. NOTHING else is."
All other cars you see are illusory :-)

On Tuesday, September 10, 2019 at 2:01:56 PM UTC-4, devnull wrote:
On 9/10/19 1:05 PM, trader_4 wrote:
You might want to improve your reading comprehension skills. Neither I
nor the professor said that we would call it two phase. Only that what
is actual there are two voltage sources, two phases that are 180 deg out
of phase with each other.

You only *appear* to have two phases when you hook one pair of your oscilloscope leads up backwards.

That's totally wrong. Take the scope ground and connect it to the logical
system reference point, the neutral. Take one probe and connect it to
L1 and take another probe and connect it to L2. Nothing "backwards"
there. And you will see two 120V sine wave voltage sources, 180 deg
out of phase with each other. It's how you get 240V between them.

On 9/11/19 5:29 AM, devnull wrote:
On 9/10/19 11:41 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
Water can actually boil over a range of less than room temperature to
several humdred degrees depending on how much pressure it is under.
even just exposed to the normal air, it will boil at a higher
temperature at places lower than sea level and lower temperature at the
top of a mountain.

Yes, water is 3-phase.Â* ;-)

That sounded funny until I remembered that the word "phase" is also used
for the states of matter, such as solid liquid and gas.

--
105 days until the winter celebration (Wed, Dec 25, 2019 12:00:00 AM for
1 day).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"If our democracy is to flourish, it must have criticism; if our
government is to function, it must have dissent." -- Henry Steele

On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 17:39:01 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Tuesday, September 10, 2019 at 8:16:05 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 09:05:05 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Tuesday, September 10, 2019 at 11:56:17 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 06:40:50 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

An IEEE fellow, professor
of electrical engineering,

I am talking about people in the trade, not some professor who has
never touched a piece of wire.
Terms have meanings. When you have to blur the nomenclature to get
novices to understand you corrupt the meaning of the term.

In other words, you can't handle the most basic electrical engineering
principles that show electrically what that service is. It's likeOh, p
denying that tissues are actually a soft paper product made from
trees and insisting that they are just Kleenex, that's all they are,
that's all they ever can be, because that's how they are commonly
referred to.


No people in the trade where there is life on the line use very
specific terms. Blurring them to make concepts understandable for new
students or homeowners is not what they choose to do.

Oh, please stop with the "life on the line' nonsense, like a discussion
about phase is going to kill people. And how about
answering the very simple questions I posed to Ralph:



Let's take your second example of what you
say was the old two phase power, ie 90 deg phase difference, three wires with
a common return. I changed the phase difference to 70 deg by rotating
one of the windings on the generator. Are there
still two phases there? Now I change it to 179 deg, are there still
two phases there? I change it to 181, are there still two phases there?
I change it to 180 deg, are there still two phases
there? And how is the latter any electrically different than the
3 wire 240/120V service going into a home? Describe how I could tell
from the panel in your house which of the two power sources I had
supplying it, 240/120 from pole a transformer or two phase from
Ralph's generator that I changed to 180 deg phase shift. How are
they electrically different, how do they behave differently?


You keep playing these theoretical games with weird phase angles but
the fact is the phases are going to be symmetrical in an alternator.
That can be 120 out or 90 out but each one will be the same. 180 out
is simply single phase, a straight line if you remember your geometry
I am not doing this anymore.

On Wednesday, September 11, 2019 at 1:34:19 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 17:39:01 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Tuesday, September 10, 2019 at 8:16:05 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 09:05:05 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Tuesday, September 10, 2019 at 11:56:17 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 06:40:50 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

An IEEE fellow, professor
of electrical engineering,

I am talking about people in the trade, not some professor who has
never touched a piece of wire.
Terms have meanings. When you have to blur the nomenclature to get
novices to understand you corrupt the meaning of the term.

In other words, you can't handle the most basic electrical engineering
principles that show electrically what that service is. It's likeOh, p
denying that tissues are actually a soft paper product made from
trees and insisting that they are just Kleenex, that's all they are,
that's all they ever can be, because that's how they are commonly
referred to.


No people in the trade where there is life on the line use very
specific terms. Blurring them to make concepts understandable for new
students or homeowners is not what they choose to do.

Oh, please stop with the "life on the line' nonsense, like a discussion
about phase is going to kill people. And how about
answering the very simple questions I posed to Ralph:



Let's take your second example of what you
say was the old two phase power, ie 90 deg phase difference, three wires with
a common return. I changed the phase difference to 70 deg by rotating
one of the windings on the generator. Are there
still two phases there? Now I change it to 179 deg, are there still
two phases there? I change it to 181, are there still two phases there?
I change it to 180 deg, are there still two phases
there? And how is the latter any electrically different than the
3 wire 240/120V service going into a home? Describe how I could tell
from the panel in your house which of the two power sources I had
supplying it, 240/120 from pole a transformer or two phase from
Ralph's generator that I changed to 180 deg phase shift. How are
they electrically different, how do they behave differently?


You keep playing these theoretical games with weird phase angles but
the fact is the phases are going to be symmetrical in an alternator.
That can be 120 out or 90 out but each one will be the same.

Say what? In Ralph's two phase example from 100 years ago, there
are two phases, one 90 deg off from the other. Nothing symmetric
about that. If there are 3 phases, 0, 120, 240, that is symmetric.
There is no reqt that phases have to be symmetric to be phases.

And the reason I bring up those "weird" phase angles, is to try
to get you to see that 90 deg two phase isn't something unique,
it isn't something that defines two phase forever. If you rotate
the one winding ten more degrees, you'd have 100 deg phase difference.
Are there still two phases there? And when you rotate it to 180,
bring it into a house at 120V on 3 wires, then what you have is
electrically identical to split-phase from a transformer. You
have two 120V AC sources, 180 out of phase with each other.
You can't tell them apart.






180 out
is simply single phase, a straight line if you remember your geometry
I am not doing this anymore.

Is it only one phase when Ralph's two phase alternator is at 90 deg,
100 deg or 179 deg phase difference? How about at 181? 270?
If you want to exclude 180 then it would have to be by definition, otherwise
it's just as valid a phase as any of the others. Excluding it would
seem rather odd, because then Ralph's alternator would have 120V
coming out of one winding, 120v with 180 deg phase difference
coming out of the other winding, so if the second one isn't a phase
what would you call it?

On 9/11/2019 2:12 PM, trader_4 wrote:
On Wednesday, September 11, 2019 at 1:34:19 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 17:39:01 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Tuesday, September 10, 2019 at 8:16:05 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 09:05:05 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Tuesday, September 10, 2019 at 11:56:17 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 06:40:50 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

An IEEE fellow, professor
of electrical engineering,
I am talking about people in the trade, not some professor who has
never touched a piece of wire.
Terms have meanings. When you have to blur the nomenclature to get
novices to understand you corrupt the meaning of the term.
In other words, you can't handle the most basic electrical engineering
principles that show electrically what that service is. It's likeOh, p
denying that tissues are actually a soft paper product made from
trees and insisting that they are just Kleenex, that's all they are,
that's all they ever can be, because that's how they are commonly
referred to.


No people in the trade where there is life on the line use very
specific terms. Blurring them to make concepts understandable for new
students or homeowners is not what they choose to do.
Oh, please stop with the "life on the line' nonsense, like a discussion
about phase is going to kill people. And how about
answering the very simple questions I posed to Ralph:



Let's take your second example of what you
say was the old two phase power, ie 90 deg phase difference, three wires with
a common return. I changed the phase difference to 70 deg by rotating
one of the windings on the generator. Are there
still two phases there? Now I change it to 179 deg, are there still
two phases there? I change it to 181, are there still two phases there?
I change it to 180 deg, are there still two phases
there? And how is the latter any electrically different than the
3 wire 240/120V service going into a home? Describe how I could tell
from the panel in your house which of the two power sources I had
supplying it, 240/120 from pole a transformer or two phase from
Ralph's generator that I changed to 180 deg phase shift. How are
they electrically different, how do they behave differently?

You keep playing these theoretical games with weird phase angles but
the fact is the phases are going to be symmetrical in an alternator.
That can be 120 out or 90 out but each one will be the same.
Say what? In Ralph's two phase example from 100 years ago, there
are two phases, one 90 deg off from the other. Nothing symmetric
about that. If there are 3 phases, 0, 120, 240, that is symmetric.
There is no reqt that phases have to be symmetric to be phases.

And the reason I bring up those "weird" phase angles, is to try
to get you to see that 90 deg two phase isn't something unique,
it isn't something that defines two phase forever. If you rotate
the one winding ten more degrees, you'd have 100 deg phase difference.
Are there still two phases there? And when you rotate it to 180,
bring it into a house at 120V on 3 wires, then what you have is
electrically identical to split-phase from a transformer. You
have two 120V AC sources, 180 out of phase with each other.
You can't tell them apart.






180 out
is simply single phase, a straight line if you remember your geometry
I am not doing this anymore.
Is it only one phase when Ralph's two phase alternator is at 90 deg,
100 deg or 179 deg phase difference? How about at 181? 270?
If you want to exclude 180 then it would have to be by definition, otherwise
it's just as valid a phase as any of the others. Excluding it would
seem rather odd, because then Ralph's alternator would have 120V
coming out of one winding, 120v with 180 deg phase difference
coming out of the other winding, so if the second one isn't a phase
what would you call it?


Here are two plots, one at 0 and one at 180 degrees.

Looks like single phase with the second plot having reversed leads.Â* Looks electrically useless to me.

http://fooplot.com/#W3sidHlwZSI6MCwi...lwZSI6MTAwMH1d

Would you like to buy a special dual-polarity AA battery?

On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 17:43:33 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Tuesday, September 10, 2019 at 8:22:06 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 14:01:50 -0400, devnull wrote:

On 9/10/19 1:05 PM, trader_4 wrote:
You might want to improve your reading comprehension skills. Neither I
nor the professor said that we would call it two phase. Only that what
is actual there are two voltage sources, two phases that are 180 deg out
of phase with each other.

You only *appear* to have two phases when you hook one pair of your oscilloscope leads up backwards.

Actually you mean when you hook your scope up in the center of the
single phase winding. I can do the same thing with 2 AA cells and make
it look like the plus end of one battery is actually minus.

Yes, how very unreasonable to hook up a scope using the system neutral,
the system reference point. Is that like an unfair magic trick?
And no, it's not hooking up the scope
backwards. Connect the ground clip to the SYSTEM NEUTRAL. Connect
one probe to L1 you get one sine wave. Connect the other probe to
L2, you get the inverse, 180 phase difference sine wave. Which of
course is exactly what the power source is, two sine wave sources
that are 180 out of phase with each other.

OK so you admit what you see is just an artifact of where you hook up
your scope. If I corner ground a delta using exactly the same
transformer with exactly the same input you won't see anything "180"
out of phase.