I have single light switch, three romex in ceiling box, TWO LED panel lights
are running out of ceiling box. I want to add TWO more LED drop in panels.
I need to know HOW to add these.
Breaker Box turns off electrical outlet, stairs, BOTH LED lights, AND
additional lights in other basement room.
HELP PLEASE!

--
for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/mainte...x-1198964-.htm

On 9/8/19 1:44 AM, Bill H. wrote:
I have single light switch, three romex in ceiling box, TWO LED panel lights
are running out of ceiling box.Â* I want to add TWO more LED drop in panels.
I need to know HOW to add these. Breaker Box turns off electrical outlet, stairs, BOTH LED lights, AND
additional lights in other basement room.
HELP PLEASE!


First and foremost, you need to obtain an electrical permit from your local taxing authority. The permit and inspection in my locale would run ~$250.
Then, and only then, can you shove more wires in that overstuffed ceiling box.

Do you have single-phase or two-phase electric service?

On Sun, 8 Sep 2019 05:56:08 -0400, Jack Legg Handyman Service LLC
wrote:

On 9/8/19 1:44 AM, Bill H. wrote:
I have single light switch, three romex in ceiling box, TWO LED panel lights
are running out of ceiling box.* I want to add TWO more LED drop in panels.
I need to know HOW to add these. Breaker Box turns off electrical outlet, stairs, BOTH LED lights, AND
additional lights in other basement room.
HELP PLEASE!


First and foremost, you need to obtain an electrical permit from your local taxing authority. The permit and inspection in my locale would run ~$250.
Then, and only then, can you shove more wires in that overstuffed ceiling box.

Do you have single-phase or two-phase electric service?
No such thing as 2 phase

In article ,
says...

Do you have single-phase or two-phase electric service?
No such thing as 2 phase



There is (was). What is split phase in most of the US is mistakenly
called 2 phase by some. However there really is 2 phase.
I hop ewe don't have to go through the same old 400 postings about this.



Two-phase electrical power was an early 20th-century polyphase
alternating current electric power distribution system. Two circuits
were used, with voltage phases differing by one-quarter of a cycle, 90°.
Usually circuits used four wires, two for each phase. Less frequently,
three wires were used, with a common wire with a larger-diameter
conductor. Some early two-phase generators had two complete rotor and
field assemblies, with windings physically offset to provide two-phase
power. The generators at Niagara Falls installed in 1895 were the
largest generators in the world at that time and were two-phase
machines. Three-phase systems eventually replaced the original two-phase
power systems for power transmission and utilization. There remain few
two-phase distribution systems, with examples in Philadelphia,
Pennsylvania; many buildings in Center City are permanently wired for
two-phase[2] and Hartford, Connecticut.[3]

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This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
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"Ralph Mowery" says...

Do you have single-phase or two-phase electric service?
No such thing as 2 phase



There is (was). What is split phase in most of the US is
mistakenly
called 2 phase by some. However there really is 2 phase.
I hop ewe don't have to go through the same old 400
postings about this.


Two-phase electrical power was an early 20th-century
polyphase
alternating current electric power distribution system.
Two circuits
were used, with voltage phases differing by one-quarter of
a cycle, 90°.
Usually circuits used four wires, two for each phase. Less
frequently,
three wires were used, with a common wire with a
larger-diameter
conductor. Some early two-phase generators had two
complete rotor and
field assemblies, with windings physically offset to
provide two-phase
power. The generators at Niagara Falls installed in 1895
were the
largest generators in the world at that time and were
two-phase
machines. Three-phase systems eventually replaced the
original two-phase
power systems for power transmission and utilization.
There remain few
two-phase distribution systems, with examples in
Philadelphia,
Pennsylvania; many buildings in Center City are
permanently wired for
two-phase[2] and Hartford, Connecticut.[3]

Thanks for explaining this, Ralph. ;)

On Sun, 8 Sep 2019 19:12:25 -0400, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article ,
says...

Do you have single-phase or two-phase electric service?
No such thing as 2 phase



There is (was). What is split phase in most of the US is mistakenly
called 2 phase by some. However there really is 2 phase.
I hop ewe don't have to go through the same old 400 postings about this.


They were 25 Hz too. Wasn't aware there were any"shaker" transformers
still left in use. Noisy as heck - particularly the old Niagara 25hz
stuff. Transformers heated up from the friction of the laminations
rubbing against each other if they were not oil filled.

Two-phase electrical power was an early 20th-century polyphase
alternating current electric power distribution system. Two circuits
were used, with voltage phases differing by one-quarter of a cycle, 90°.
Usually circuits used four wires, two for each phase. Less frequently,
three wires were used, with a common wire with a larger-diameter
conductor. Some early two-phase generators had two complete rotor and
field assemblies, with windings physically offset to provide two-phase
power. The generators at Niagara Falls installed in 1895 were the
largest generators in the world at that time and were two-phase
machines. Three-phase systems eventually replaced the original two-phase
power systems for power transmission and utilization. There remain few
two-phase distribution systems, with examples in Philadelphia,
Pennsylvania; many buildings in Center City are permanently wired for
two-phase[2] and Hartford, Connecticut.[3]

No real reason the
permanently wired" 2 phase buildings cannot be connected to
"split phase" 120/240 supply. Be a bugger sourcing motors - things
like AC unis, driers, etc for an EXTREMELY limitted market.
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On Sunday, September 8, 2019 at 7:12:34 PM UTC-4, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article ,
says...

Do you have single-phase or two-phase electric service?
No such thing as 2 phase



There is (was). What is split phase in most of the US is mistakenly
called 2 phase by some. However there really is 2 phase.
I hop ewe don't have to go through the same old 400 postings about this.

If you had that hope, why did you take the troll bait?

You start off with the wrong assumption that because one particular system
of two phase was called two phase, that means that defines what two phase
means. To do this right, you first need to define what an N phase power
service would look like. Hint: It's not limited to 90 degrees phase
difference. I have defined it in the past, no one else has.

So, here are your questions. Let's take your second example of what you
say was the old two phase power, ie 90 deg phase difference, three wires with
a common return. I changed the phase difference to 70 deg by rotating
one of the windings on the generator. Are there
still two phases there? Now I change it to 179 deg, are there still
two phases there? I change it to 181, are there still two phases there?
I change it to 180 deg, are there still two phases
there? And how is the latter any electrically different than the
3 wire 240/120V service going into a home? Describe how I could tell
from the panel in your house which of the two I had, how they are
electrically different, how they behave differently?

This is based on semantics without definitions and reliance on what
something was historically, not electrical engineering. Would I call
240/120V, two phase? No, because it's not commonly referred to as that,
but that does not change the fact as to what's actually there, you
have two 120V sources that are 180 deg out of phase with each other.

On Mon, 9 Sep 2019 08:19:58 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:


If you had that hope, why did you take the troll bait?

He knew you would bite.

trader_4 writes:
On Sunday, September 8, 2019 at 7:12:34 PM UTC-4, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article ,
says...

Do you have single-phase or two-phase electric service?
No such thing as 2 phase



There is (was). What is split phase in most of the US is mistakenly
called 2 phase by some. However there really is 2 phase.
I hop ewe don't have to go through the same old 400 postings about this.

If you had that hope, why did you take the troll bait?

You start off with the wrong assumption that because one particular system
of two phase was called two phase, that means that defines what two phase
means. To do this right, you first need to define what an N phase power
service would look like. Hint: It's not limited to 90 degrees phase
difference. I have defined it in the past, no one else has.

So, here are your questions. Let's take your second example of what you
say was the old two phase power, ie 90 deg phase difference, three wires with
a common return. I changed the phase difference to 70 deg by rotating
one of the windings on the generator. Are there
still two phases there? Now I change it to 179 deg, are there still
two phases there? I change it to 181, are there still two phases there?
I change it to 180 deg, are there still two phases
there? And how is the latter any electrically different than the
3 wire 240/120V service going into a home? Describe how I could tell
from the panel in your house which of the two I had, how they are
electrically different, how they behave differently?

This is based on semantics without definitions and reliance on what
something was historically, not electrical engineering. Would I call
240/120V, two phase? No, because it's not commonly referred to as that,
but that does not change the fact as to what's actually there, you
have two 120V sources that are 180 deg out of phase with each other.

Are they 180 degrees? or 120 degrees. Most AC is distributed as three-phase
power. Each neighborhood here gets one of the three phases from the
the power yard where the incoming three-phase 115kVAC is transformed to
21kVAC or 12kVAC (depending on age of neighborhood) for distribution. That means the
two hot conductors at the service entrance are drived from two of the three
distribution phases, which would make them 120 degrees apart. That phase is split
using a grounded conductor (AKA Neutral) into two 120VAC circuits.

[snip]

You start off with the wrong assumption that because one particular system
of two phase was called two phase, that means that defines what two phase
means. To do this right, you first need to define what an N phase power
service would look like. Hint: It's not limited to 90 degrees phase
difference. I have defined it in the past, no one else has.

So, here are your questions. Let's take your second example of what you
say was the old two phase power, ie 90 deg phase difference, three wires with
a common return. I changed the phase difference to 70 deg by rotating
one of the windings on the generator. Are there
still two phases there? Now I change it to 179 deg, are there still
two phases there? I change it to 181, are there still two phases there?
I change it to 180 deg, are there still two phases
there? And how is the latter any electrically different than the
3 wire 240/120V service going into a home? Describe how I could tell
from the panel in your house which of the two I had, how they are
electrically different, how they behave differently?

This is based on semantics without definitions and reliance on what
something was historically, not electrical engineering. Would I call
240/120V, two phase? No, because it's not commonly referred to as that,
but that does not change the fact as to what's actually there, you
have two 120V sources that are 180 deg out of phase with each other.

Whether you have 1 phase or 2 depends on the reference point, either the
middle of the (center tapped) transformer secondary or one end. It seems
normal to use the point that's grounded.

120V, 120V (2 phases, 180 deg. apart))

or

120V, 240V (same phase)

Some people seem to be confusing this with the single phase at the
transformer primary.

--
106 days until the winter celebration (Wed, Dec 25, 2019 12:00:00 AM for
1 day).

"God has done nothing for men and women except to scare them out of
their wits." [Lemuel K. Washburn, _Is The Bible Worth Reading And Other
Essays_]

On Sun, 08 Sep 2019 10:56:08 +0100, Jack Legg Handyman Service LLC wrote:

On 9/8/19 1:44 AM, Bill H. wrote:
I have single light switch, three romex in ceiling box, TWO LED panel lights
are running out of ceiling box. I want to add TWO more LED drop in panels.
I need to know HOW to add these. Breaker Box turns off electrical outlet, stairs, BOTH LED lights, AND
additional lights in other basement room.
HELP PLEASE!

First and foremost, you need to obtain an electrical permit from your local taxing authority. The permit and inspection in my locale would run ~$250.
Then, and only then, can you shove more wires in that overstuffed ceiling box.

A permit to add lights in your own house. Are you mental?

On 9/10/2019 4:19 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 08 Sep 2019 10:56:08 +0100, Jack Legg Handyman Service LLC wrote:

On 9/8/19 1:44 AM, Bill H. wrote:
I have single light switch, three romex in ceiling box, TWO LED panel lights
are running out of ceiling box.* I want to add TWO more LED drop in panels.
I need to know HOW to add these. Breaker Box turns off electrical outlet, stairs, BOTH LED lights, AND
additional lights in other basement room.
HELP PLEASE!

First and foremost, you need to obtain an electrical permit from your local taxing authority.* The permit and inspection in my locale would run ~$250.
Then, and only then, can you shove more wires in that overstuffed ceiling box.

A permit to add lights in your own house.* Are you mental?


If you follow the law, in my township you'd need an electric permit for 1 circuit at a cost of $110.

Upon completion of the work,* you'd need a one circuit inspection at an additional charge of* $125

....if you follow the law, LOL.

On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 23:18:46 +0100, Mike Oxbern wrote:

On 9/10/2019 4:19 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 08 Sep 2019 10:56:08 +0100, Jack Legg Handyman Service LLC wrote:

On 9/8/19 1:44 AM, Bill H. wrote:
I have single light switch, three romex in ceiling box, TWO LED panel lights
are running out of ceiling box. I want to add TWO more LED drop in panels.
I need to know HOW to add these. Breaker Box turns off electrical outlet, stairs, BOTH LED lights, AND
additional lights in other basement room.
HELP PLEASE!

First and foremost, you need to obtain an electrical permit from your local taxing authority. The permit and inspection in my locale would run ~$250.
Then, and only then, can you shove more wires in that overstuffed ceiling box.

A permit to add lights in your own house. Are you mental?


If you follow the law, in my township you'd need an electric permit for 1 circuit at a cost of $110.

Upon completion of the work, you'd need a one circuit inspection at an additional charge of $125

...if you follow the law, LOL.

I thought it was bad here. We only need permits for gas works, or for buildings which can be seen by neighbours. For some reason this excludes conservatories (which are classed as a temporary building?!?), garages, and sheds, as long as they are only 1 storey high. And no I didn't inform anyone when I moved my own gas main. It's MY gas main.

On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 18:18:46 -0400, Mike Oxbern
wrote:

On 9/10/2019 4:19 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 08 Sep 2019 10:56:08 +0100, Jack Legg Handyman Service LLC wrote:

On 9/8/19 1:44 AM, Bill H. wrote:
I have single light switch, three romex in ceiling box, TWO LED panel lights
are running out of ceiling box.* I want to add TWO more LED drop in panels.
I need to know HOW to add these. Breaker Box turns off electrical outlet, stairs, BOTH LED lights, AND
additional lights in other basement room.
HELP PLEASE!

First and foremost, you need to obtain an electrical permit from your local taxing authority.* The permit and inspection in my locale would run ~$250.
Then, and only then, can you shove more wires in that overstuffed ceiling box.

A permit to add lights in your own house.* Are you mental?


If you follow the law, in my township you'd need an electric permit for 1 circuit at a cost of $110.

Upon completion of the work,* you'd need a one circuit inspection at an additional charge of* $125

...if you follow the law, LOL.

Here it is NOT the "taxing authority" - it is the ESA - the
"Electrical Safety Authority"

On Wed, 11 Sep 2019 03:13:52 +0100, Clare Snyder wrote:

On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 18:18:46 -0400, Mike Oxbern
wrote:

On 9/10/2019 4:19 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 08 Sep 2019 10:56:08 +0100, Jack Legg Handyman Service LLC wrote:

On 9/8/19 1:44 AM, Bill H. wrote:
I have single light switch, three romex in ceiling box, TWO LED panel lights
are running out of ceiling box. I want to add TWO more LED drop in panels.
I need to know HOW to add these. Breaker Box turns off electrical outlet, stairs, BOTH LED lights, AND
additional lights in other basement room.
HELP PLEASE!

First and foremost, you need to obtain an electrical permit from your local taxing authority. The permit and inspection in my locale would run ~$250.
Then, and only then, can you shove more wires in that overstuffed ceiling box.

A permit to add lights in your own house. Are you mental?


If you follow the law, in my township you'd need an electric permit for 1 circuit at a cost of $110.

Upon completion of the work, you'd need a one circuit inspection at an additional charge of $125

...if you follow the law, LOL.

Here it is NOT the "taxing authority" - it is the ESA - the
"Electrical Safety Authority"

Who said it was the taxing authority? And whatever name it is, it's just another nosy / money making government scheme.

On Sunday, September 8, 2019 at 1:44:05 AM UTC-4, Bill H. wrote:
I have single light switch, three romex in ceiling box, TWO LED panel lights
are running out of ceiling box. I want to add TWO more LED drop in panels.
I need to know HOW to add these.
Breaker Box turns off electrical outlet, stairs, BOTH LED lights, AND
additional lights in other basement room.
HELP PLEASE!

--
for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/mainte...x-1198964-.htm

Assuming you want the new ones to operate off the same switch, then you
wire them in parallel with the existing light, connecting black to black,
white to white, bare ground wire to bare ground wire. Where you connect
into the exisiting wiring depends on where the new ones are going and
how the existing has been run. Most times you'd connect at the existing
box for the light fixture that's there.

Next issue is how many wires are already in that box and how many it's
allowed to have per code. Typically they accommodate 6 to 10, there
are wire fill tables that show how many wires are allowed for the common
box sizes. You have three romex going in already, if they are each two
conductors, then that's 3x2 conductors + 1 ground =7. If you add another romex to
go to the first new light, that would make it 9. So that box is
supposed to accommodate at least nine 14g wires, assuming it is 14g.
Find the max count in the tables for your box, as long as it's 9 or
more, you're OK. Romex goes into old box, run over to first new box,
daisy chain to next one. Buy old work boxes for the new spots, they
are made to install into existing ceilings.

On Sun, 8 Sep 2019 06:44:13 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Sunday, September 8, 2019 at 1:44:05 AM UTC-4, Bill H. wrote:
I have single light switch, three romex in ceiling box, TWO LED panel lights
are running out of ceiling box. I want to add TWO more LED drop in panels.
I need to know HOW to add these.
Breaker Box turns off electrical outlet, stairs, BOTH LED lights, AND
additional lights in other basement room.
HELP PLEASE!

--
for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/mainte...x-1198964-.htm

Assuming you want the new ones to operate off the same switch, then you
wire them in parallel with the existing light, connecting black to black,
white to white, bare ground wire to bare ground wire. Where you connect
into the exisiting wiring depends on where the new ones are going and
how the existing has been run. Most times you'd connect at the existing
box for the light fixture that's there.

Next issue is how many wires are already in that box and how many it's
allowed to have per code. Typically they accommodate 6 to 10, there
are wire fill tables that show how many wires are allowed for the common
box sizes. You have three romex going in already, if they are each two
conductors, then that's 3x2 conductors + 1 ground =7. If you add another romex to
go to the first new light, that would make it 9. So that box is
supposed to accommodate at least nine 14g wires, assuming it is 14g.
Find the max count in the tables for your box, as long as it's 9 or
more, you're OK. Romex goes into old box, run over to first new box,
daisy chain to next one. Buy old work boxes for the new spots, they
are made to install into existing ceilings.

The typical 4" octagon box used for ceiling lights is 1 1/2" deep and
is full with 7 conductors. (3 14g Romex)
If by remote chance they used a 2 1/8" deep box, it holds 10 14g.
conductors.

http://gfretwell.com/electrical/Box%20fill%20table.jpg

On Sun, 8 Sep 2019 05:44:02 +0000, Bill H.
m wrote:

I have single light switch, three romex in ceiling box, TWO LED panel lights
are running out of ceiling box. I want to add TWO more LED drop in panels.
I need to know HOW to add these.
Breaker Box turns off electrical outlet, stairs, BOTH LED lights, AND
additional lights in other basement room.
HELP PLEASE!
Hire a "sparky" to have it tone properly and safely. Pretty difficult
to see through the ethernet exactly what setup you have.