On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 22:11:17 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 15:16:47 -0500, Sam E
wrote:

On 9/10/19 8:44 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
trader_4 writes:
On Monday, September 9, 2019 at 3:40:45 PM UTC-4, Dean Hoffman wrote:


And sometimes I see just one primary going down a road too. Just depends
on what the current loads and expected loads are. That's a good picture of
exactly what I was describing, very common here. Pole transformer
connected between one primary and the primary neutral.

Primary doesn't have a neutral.

One end of the primary connects to a live wire. What is the other end
connected to?
Another live wire that is 180 dergrees out of phase.

Or a grounded conductor.

Pretty soon you are going to be in a semantics discussion about why 2
conductors of a 3 phase are single phase.

On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 21:25:02 -0500, Dean Hoffman
wrote:

On 9/10/19 9:11 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 15:16:47 -0500, Sam E
wrote:

On 9/10/19 8:44 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
trader_4 writes:
On Monday, September 9, 2019 at 3:40:45 PM UTC-4, Dean Hoffman wrote:


And sometimes I see just one primary going down a road too. Just depends
on what the current loads and expected loads are. That's a good picture of
exactly what I was describing, very common here. Pole transformer
connected between one primary and the primary neutral.

Primary doesn't have a neutral.

One end of the primary connects to a live wire. What is the other end
connected to?
Another live wire that is 180 dergrees out of phase.

Aren't they talking about that single wire earth return? That
must be really
rare. I don't remember seeing it anywhere in my little world. EXCEPT
for electric
fencers to keep livestock in.

No we are talking about wye distribution with one phase conductor and
a grounded conductor although there will always be some earth return.
Measuring the grounding conductor coming down the pole from each
transformer on my street that earth return varies from around a half
amp up to almost 3. I also see current on my service neutral with the
main breaker off but I probably have the best GES on the street so I
get a lot of that current.

On Wed, 11 Sep 2019 06:29:18 -0400, devnull wrote:

Yes, water is 3-phase. ;-)

Liquid, solid or gas

On Wed, 11 Sep 2019 11:12:58 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Wednesday, September 11, 2019 at 1:34:19 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 17:39:01 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Tuesday, September 10, 2019 at 8:16:05 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 09:05:05 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Tuesday, September 10, 2019 at 11:56:17 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 06:40:50 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

An IEEE fellow, professor
of electrical engineering,

I am talking about people in the trade, not some professor who has
never touched a piece of wire.
Terms have meanings. When you have to blur the nomenclature to get
novices to understand you corrupt the meaning of the term.

In other words, you can't handle the most basic electrical engineering
principles that show electrically what that service is. It's likeOh, p
denying that tissues are actually a soft paper product made from
trees and insisting that they are just Kleenex, that's all they are,
that's all they ever can be, because that's how they are commonly
referred to.


No people in the trade where there is life on the line use very
specific terms. Blurring them to make concepts understandable for new
students or homeowners is not what they choose to do.

Oh, please stop with the "life on the line' nonsense, like a discussion
about phase is going to kill people. And how about
answering the very simple questions I posed to Ralph:



Let's take your second example of what you
say was the old two phase power, ie 90 deg phase difference, three wires with
a common return. I changed the phase difference to 70 deg by rotating
one of the windings on the generator. Are there
still two phases there? Now I change it to 179 deg, are there still
two phases there? I change it to 181, are there still two phases there?
I change it to 180 deg, are there still two phases
there? And how is the latter any electrically different than the
3 wire 240/120V service going into a home? Describe how I could tell
from the panel in your house which of the two power sources I had
supplying it, 240/120 from pole a transformer or two phase from
Ralph's generator that I changed to 180 deg phase shift. How are
they electrically different, how do they behave differently?


You keep playing these theoretical games with weird phase angles but
the fact is the phases are going to be symmetrical in an alternator.
That can be 120 out or 90 out but each one will be the same.

Say what? In Ralph's two phase example from 100 years ago, there
are two phases, one 90 deg off from the other. Nothing symmetric
about that. If there are 3 phases, 0, 120, 240, that is symmetric.
There is no reqt that phases have to be symmetric to be phases.


12, 3, 6 and 9 on your clock are 90 out and they are very symmetrical.

And the reason I bring up those "weird" phase angles, is to try
to get you to see that 90 deg two phase isn't something unique,
it isn't something that defines two phase forever. If you rotate
the one winding ten more degrees, you'd have 100 deg phase difference.
Are there still two phases there? And when you rotate it to 180,
bring it into a house at 120V on 3 wires, then what you have is
electrically identical to split-phase from a transformer. You
have two 120V AC sources, 180 out of phase with each other.
You can't tell them apart.


You might be able to create a 100 degree phase shift with electronics
(using a capacitor like starting a motor) but not in an alternator.

On Wednesday, September 11, 2019 at 3:28:12 PM UTC-4, Mike Oxbern wrote:
On 9/11/2019 2:12 PM, trader_4 wrote:
On Wednesday, September 11, 2019 at 1:34:19 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 17:39:01 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Tuesday, September 10, 2019 at 8:16:05 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 09:05:05 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Tuesday, September 10, 2019 at 11:56:17 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 06:40:50 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

An IEEE fellow, professor
of electrical engineering,
I am talking about people in the trade, not some professor who has
never touched a piece of wire.
Terms have meanings. When you have to blur the nomenclature to get
novices to understand you corrupt the meaning of the term.
In other words, you can't handle the most basic electrical engineering
principles that show electrically what that service is. It's likeOh, p
denying that tissues are actually a soft paper product made from
trees and insisting that they are just Kleenex, that's all they are,
that's all they ever can be, because that's how they are commonly
referred to.


No people in the trade where there is life on the line use very
specific terms. Blurring them to make concepts understandable for new
students or homeowners is not what they choose to do.
Oh, please stop with the "life on the line' nonsense, like a discussion
about phase is going to kill people. And how about
answering the very simple questions I posed to Ralph:



Let's take your second example of what you
say was the old two phase power, ie 90 deg phase difference, three wires with
a common return. I changed the phase difference to 70 deg by rotating
one of the windings on the generator. Are there
still two phases there? Now I change it to 179 deg, are there still
two phases there? I change it to 181, are there still two phases there?
I change it to 180 deg, are there still two phases
there? And how is the latter any electrically different than the
3 wire 240/120V service going into a home? Describe how I could tell
from the panel in your house which of the two power sources I had
supplying it, 240/120 from pole a transformer or two phase from
Ralph's generator that I changed to 180 deg phase shift. How are
they electrically different, how do they behave differently?

You keep playing these theoretical games with weird phase angles but
the fact is the phases are going to be symmetrical in an alternator.
That can be 120 out or 90 out but each one will be the same.
Say what? In Ralph's two phase example from 100 years ago, there
are two phases, one 90 deg off from the other. Nothing symmetric
about that. If there are 3 phases, 0, 120, 240, that is symmetric.
There is no reqt that phases have to be symmetric to be phases.

And the reason I bring up those "weird" phase angles, is to try
to get you to see that 90 deg two phase isn't something unique,
it isn't something that defines two phase forever. If you rotate
the one winding ten more degrees, you'd have 100 deg phase difference.
Are there still two phases there? And when you rotate it to 180,
bring it into a house at 120V on 3 wires, then what you have is
electrically identical to split-phase from a transformer. You
have two 120V AC sources, 180 out of phase with each other.
You can't tell them apart.






180 out
is simply single phase, a straight line if you remember your geometry
I am not doing this anymore.
Is it only one phase when Ralph's two phase alternator is at 90 deg,
100 deg or 179 deg phase difference? How about at 181? 270?
If you want to exclude 180 then it would have to be by definition, otherwise
it's just as valid a phase as any of the others. Excluding it would
seem rather odd, because then Ralph's alternator would have 120V
coming out of one winding, 120v with 180 deg phase difference
coming out of the other winding, so if the second one isn't a phase
what would you call it?


Here are two plots, one at 0 and one at 180 degrees.

Looks like single phase with the second plot having reversed leads.Â* Looks electrically useless to me.

http://fooplot.com/#W3sidHlwZSI6MCwi...lwZSI6MTAwMH1d

Would you like to buy a special dual-polarity AA battery?

It's not electrically useless, it's how 240/120 is delivered to your
house on 3 wires. And your graph sure shows two phases, separated by
180 deg. How would you describe that, if not two sine waves, one
180 deg out of phase with the other?

On Wednesday, September 11, 2019 at 7:15:41 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Wed, 11 Sep 2019 11:12:58 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Wednesday, September 11, 2019 at 1:34:19 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 17:39:01 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Tuesday, September 10, 2019 at 8:16:05 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 09:05:05 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Tuesday, September 10, 2019 at 11:56:17 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 06:40:50 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

An IEEE fellow, professor
of electrical engineering,

I am talking about people in the trade, not some professor who has
never touched a piece of wire.
Terms have meanings. When you have to blur the nomenclature to get
novices to understand you corrupt the meaning of the term.

In other words, you can't handle the most basic electrical engineering
principles that show electrically what that service is. It's likeOh, p
denying that tissues are actually a soft paper product made from
trees and insisting that they are just Kleenex, that's all they are,
that's all they ever can be, because that's how they are commonly
referred to.


No people in the trade where there is life on the line use very
specific terms. Blurring them to make concepts understandable for new
students or homeowners is not what they choose to do.

Oh, please stop with the "life on the line' nonsense, like a discussion
about phase is going to kill people. And how about
answering the very simple questions I posed to Ralph:



Let's take your second example of what you
say was the old two phase power, ie 90 deg phase difference, three wires with
a common return. I changed the phase difference to 70 deg by rotating
one of the windings on the generator. Are there
still two phases there? Now I change it to 179 deg, are there still
two phases there? I change it to 181, are there still two phases there?
I change it to 180 deg, are there still two phases
there? And how is the latter any electrically different than the
3 wire 240/120V service going into a home? Describe how I could tell
from the panel in your house which of the two power sources I had
supplying it, 240/120 from pole a transformer or two phase from
Ralph's generator that I changed to 180 deg phase shift. How are
they electrically different, how do they behave differently?


You keep playing these theoretical games with weird phase angles but
the fact is the phases are going to be symmetrical in an alternator.
That can be 120 out or 90 out but each one will be the same.

Say what? In Ralph's two phase example from 100 years ago, there
are two phases, one 90 deg off from the other. Nothing symmetric
about that. If there are 3 phases, 0, 120, 240, that is symmetric.
There is no reqt that phases have to be symmetric to be phases.


12, 3, 6 and 9 on your clock are 90 out and they are very symmetrical.

OMG. There is no 12, 3, 6 and 9. In Ralph's 100 year old 90 deg
two phase example, there is only 12 and 3. Twelve being 0 degrees
and 3 o'clock being 90 deg. Two windings that are 90 deg separated
in phase. Nothing symmetrical about that.




And the reason I bring up those "weird" phase angles, is to try
to get you to see that 90 deg two phase isn't something unique,
it isn't something that defines two phase forever. If you rotate
the one winding ten more degrees, you'd have 100 deg phase difference.
Are there still two phases there? And when you rotate it to 180,
bring it into a house at 120V on 3 wires, then what you have is
electrically identical to split-phase from a transformer. You
have two 120V AC sources, 180 out of phase with each other.
You can't tell them apart.


You might be able to create a 100 degree phase shift with electronics
(using a capacitor like starting a motor) but not in an alternator.

Double OMG. It's very simple. We have two alternators on a common
shaft. Each produces a sine wave voltage. They are arranged so that
one winding is shifted 90 deg from the other. Yes? Just loosen up
the winding on one and rotate it ten more degrees. Now you have 100 deg
separation. It's quite amazing you appear to believe that in fact
90 deg is somehow special, sacred, unique and that any other phase
angle can't just as easily be produced, by simply rotating the winding
of one of the alternators.

On Wednesday, September 11, 2019 at 4:37:34 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 17:43:33 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Tuesday, September 10, 2019 at 8:22:06 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 14:01:50 -0400, devnull wrote:

On 9/10/19 1:05 PM, trader_4 wrote:
You might want to improve your reading comprehension skills. Neither I
nor the professor said that we would call it two phase. Only that what
is actual there are two voltage sources, two phases that are 180 deg out
of phase with each other.

You only *appear* to have two phases when you hook one pair of your oscilloscope leads up backwards.

Actually you mean when you hook your scope up in the center of the
single phase winding. I can do the same thing with 2 AA cells and make
it look like the plus end of one battery is actually minus.

Yes, how very unreasonable to hook up a scope using the system neutral,
the system reference point. Is that like an unfair magic trick?
And no, it's not hooking up the scope
backwards. Connect the ground clip to the SYSTEM NEUTRAL. Connect
one probe to L1 you get one sine wave. Connect the other probe to
L2, you get the inverse, 180 phase difference sine wave. Which of
course is exactly what the power source is, two sine wave sources
that are 180 out of phase with each other.

OK so you admit what you see is just an artifact of where you hook up
your scope.

No, it's not an artifact, you're seeing exactly what is there.
You act like I want to hook the scope ground to some bizarre point,
like out in space or tied to a water bucket. In fact, it's being
hooked to the neutral, which is the common system reference point.
Do you deny that 240/120 looks like and behaves exactly like two
120V voltage sources that are 180 deg out of phase with each other?

And again, if you would follow the very simple example I gave using
Ralph's 90 deg two phase, you'd see how electrically it is the same
as 240/120 with the exception that the phase angle is 180, instead of
90. Again:

Ralph's two phase is two phase, yes? It was three wires, 0 deg
phase hot, 90 deg phase hot, common neutral return, yes? OK,
make it 100 deg phase difference, which of course we could easily
do. Would there still be two phases
there? Make it 179, still two phases? Make it 180, what do you have
now? Still two phases or did something mysterious just happen?
And don't say those phases are "weird", it's irrelevant. We can
write the equations, solve them, for any phase angles we want.
Of course the answer is that there are still two phases there.
And then what you have is electrically the same as the 240/120 service.
They are indistinguishable. That's the beauty when you approach
things like an engineer, logically. If you don't treat it that way,
then you have holes where what should be elegant, logical and
continuous, falls apart.

On Wed, 11 Sep 2019 16:37:09 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 17:43:33 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Tuesday, September 10, 2019 at 8:22:06 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 14:01:50 -0400, devnull wrote:

On 9/10/19 1:05 PM, trader_4 wrote:
You might want to improve your reading comprehension skills. Neither I
nor the professor said that we would call it two phase. Only that what
is actual there are two voltage sources, two phases that are 180 deg out
of phase with each other.

You only *appear* to have two phases when you hook one pair of your oscilloscope leads up backwards.

Actually you mean when you hook your scope up in the center of the
single phase winding. I can do the same thing with 2 AA cells and make
it look like the plus end of one battery is actually minus.

Yes, how very unreasonable to hook up a scope using the system neutral,
the system reference point. Is that like an unfair magic trick?
And no, it's not hooking up the scope
backwards. Connect the ground clip to the SYSTEM NEUTRAL. Connect
one probe to L1 you get one sine wave. Connect the other probe to
L2, you get the inverse, 180 phase difference sine wave. Which of
course is exactly what the power source is, two sine wave sources
that are 180 out of phase with each other.

OK so you admit what you see is just an artifact of where you hook up
your scope. If I corner ground a delta using exactly the same
transformer with exactly the same input you won't see anything "180"
out of phase.
In 3 phase it's all 120 degree phase shift. If you connect the scope
across a single phase, of course that is all you will see

On 9/11/19 7:32 PM, trader_4 wrote:

Cut a bunch.

And again, if you would follow the very simple example I gave using
Ralph's 90 deg two phase, you'd see how electrically it is the same
as 240/120 with the exception that the phase angle is 180, instead of
90. Again:

Ralph's two phase is two phase, yes? It was three wires, 0 deg
phase hot, 90 deg phase hot, common neutral return, yes? OK,
make it 100 deg phase difference, which of course we could easily
do. Would there still be two phases
there? Make it 179, still two phases? Make it 180, what do you have
now? Still two phases or did something mysterious just happen?
And don't say those phases are "weird", it's irrelevant. We can
write the equations, solve them, for any phase angles we want.
Of course the answer is that there are still two phases there.
And then what you have is electrically the same as the 240/120 service.
They are indistinguishable. That's the beauty when you approach
things like an engineer, logically. If you don't treat it that way,
then you have holes where what should be elegant, logical and
continuous, falls apart.

Question. Would the two phase motors from days of yesteryear
start without capacitors?

On 9/11/2019 7:54 PM, trader_4 wrote:
On Wednesday, September 11, 2019 at 3:28:12 PM UTC-4, Mike Oxbern wrote:
On 9/11/2019 2:12 PM, trader_4 wrote:
On Wednesday, September 11, 2019 at 1:34:19 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 17:39:01 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Tuesday, September 10, 2019 at 8:16:05 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 09:05:05 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Tuesday, September 10, 2019 at 11:56:17 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 06:40:50 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

An IEEE fellow, professor
of electrical engineering,
I am talking about people in the trade, not some professor who has
never touched a piece of wire.
Terms have meanings. When you have to blur the nomenclature to get
novices to understand you corrupt the meaning of the term.
In other words, you can't handle the most basic electrical engineering
principles that show electrically what that service is. It's likeOh, p
denying that tissues are actually a soft paper product made from
trees and insisting that they are just Kleenex, that's all they are,
that's all they ever can be, because that's how they are commonly
referred to.


No people in the trade where there is life on the line use very
specific terms. Blurring them to make concepts understandable for new
students or homeowners is not what they choose to do.
Oh, please stop with the "life on the line' nonsense, like a discussion
about phase is going to kill people. And how about
answering the very simple questions I posed to Ralph:



Let's take your second example of what you
say was the old two phase power, ie 90 deg phase difference, three wires with
a common return. I changed the phase difference to 70 deg by rotating
one of the windings on the generator. Are there
still two phases there? Now I change it to 179 deg, are there still
two phases there? I change it to 181, are there still two phases there?
I change it to 180 deg, are there still two phases
there? And how is the latter any electrically different than the
3 wire 240/120V service going into a home? Describe how I could tell
from the panel in your house which of the two power sources I had
supplying it, 240/120 from pole a transformer or two phase from
Ralph's generator that I changed to 180 deg phase shift. How are
they electrically different, how do they behave differently?
You keep playing these theoretical games with weird phase angles but
the fact is the phases are going to be symmetrical in an alternator.
That can be 120 out or 90 out but each one will be the same.
Say what? In Ralph's two phase example from 100 years ago, there
are two phases, one 90 deg off from the other. Nothing symmetric
about that. If there are 3 phases, 0, 120, 240, that is symmetric.
There is no reqt that phases have to be symmetric to be phases.

And the reason I bring up those "weird" phase angles, is to try
to get you to see that 90 deg two phase isn't something unique,
it isn't something that defines two phase forever. If you rotate
the one winding ten more degrees, you'd have 100 deg phase difference.
Are there still two phases there? And when you rotate it to 180,
bring it into a house at 120V on 3 wires, then what you have is
electrically identical to split-phase from a transformer. You
have two 120V AC sources, 180 out of phase with each other.
You can't tell them apart.






180 out
is simply single phase, a straight line if you remember your geometry
I am not doing this anymore.
Is it only one phase when Ralph's two phase alternator is at 90 deg,
100 deg or 179 deg phase difference? How about at 181? 270?
If you want to exclude 180 then it would have to be by definition, otherwise
it's just as valid a phase as any of the others. Excluding it would
seem rather odd, because then Ralph's alternator would have 120V
coming out of one winding, 120v with 180 deg phase difference
coming out of the other winding, so if the second one isn't a phase
what would you call it?

Here are two plots, one at 0 and one at 180 degrees.

Looks like single phase with the second plot having reversed leads.Â* Looks electrically useless to me.

http://fooplot.com/#W3sidHlwZSI6MCwi...lwZSI6MTAwMH1d

Would you like to buy a special dual-polarity AA battery?
It's not electrically useless, it's how 240/120 is delivered to your
house on 3 wires. And your graph sure shows two phases, separated by
180 deg. How would you describe that, if not two sine waves, one
180 deg out of phase with the other?

Look like what I'd expect to see with a two channel scope.

Trace 1:Â* common on L1, signal on L2

Trace 2:Â* signal on L1, common on L2

Again, would you like to buy a magic dual-polarity AA battery?

On Wednesday, September 11, 2019 at 9:27:13 PM UTC-4, Mike Oxbern wrote:
On 9/11/2019 7:54 PM, trader_4 wrote:
On Wednesday, September 11, 2019 at 3:28:12 PM UTC-4, Mike Oxbern wrote:
On 9/11/2019 2:12 PM, trader_4 wrote:
On Wednesday, September 11, 2019 at 1:34:19 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 17:39:01 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Tuesday, September 10, 2019 at 8:16:05 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 09:05:05 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Tuesday, September 10, 2019 at 11:56:17 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 06:40:50 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

An IEEE fellow, professor
of electrical engineering,
I am talking about people in the trade, not some professor who has
never touched a piece of wire.
Terms have meanings. When you have to blur the nomenclature to get
novices to understand you corrupt the meaning of the term.
In other words, you can't handle the most basic electrical engineering
principles that show electrically what that service is. It's likeOh, p
denying that tissues are actually a soft paper product made from
trees and insisting that they are just Kleenex, that's all they are,
that's all they ever can be, because that's how they are commonly
referred to.


No people in the trade where there is life on the line use very
specific terms. Blurring them to make concepts understandable for new
students or homeowners is not what they choose to do.
Oh, please stop with the "life on the line' nonsense, like a discussion
about phase is going to kill people. And how about
answering the very simple questions I posed to Ralph:



Let's take your second example of what you
say was the old two phase power, ie 90 deg phase difference, three wires with
a common return. I changed the phase difference to 70 deg by rotating
one of the windings on the generator. Are there
still two phases there? Now I change it to 179 deg, are there still
two phases there? I change it to 181, are there still two phases there?
I change it to 180 deg, are there still two phases
there? And how is the latter any electrically different than the
3 wire 240/120V service going into a home? Describe how I could tell
from the panel in your house which of the two power sources I had
supplying it, 240/120 from pole a transformer or two phase from
Ralph's generator that I changed to 180 deg phase shift. How are
they electrically different, how do they behave differently?
You keep playing these theoretical games with weird phase angles but
the fact is the phases are going to be symmetrical in an alternator.
That can be 120 out or 90 out but each one will be the same.
Say what? In Ralph's two phase example from 100 years ago, there
are two phases, one 90 deg off from the other. Nothing symmetric
about that. If there are 3 phases, 0, 120, 240, that is symmetric.
There is no reqt that phases have to be symmetric to be phases.

And the reason I bring up those "weird" phase angles, is to try
to get you to see that 90 deg two phase isn't something unique,
it isn't something that defines two phase forever. If you rotate
the one winding ten more degrees, you'd have 100 deg phase difference..
Are there still two phases there? And when you rotate it to 180,
bring it into a house at 120V on 3 wires, then what you have is
electrically identical to split-phase from a transformer. You
have two 120V AC sources, 180 out of phase with each other.
You can't tell them apart.






180 out
is simply single phase, a straight line if you remember your geometry
I am not doing this anymore.
Is it only one phase when Ralph's two phase alternator is at 90 deg,
100 deg or 179 deg phase difference? How about at 181? 270?
If you want to exclude 180 then it would have to be by definition, otherwise
it's just as valid a phase as any of the others. Excluding it would
seem rather odd, because then Ralph's alternator would have 120V
coming out of one winding, 120v with 180 deg phase difference
coming out of the other winding, so if the second one isn't a phase
what would you call it?

Here are two plots, one at 0 and one at 180 degrees.

Looks like single phase with the second plot having reversed leads.Â* Looks electrically useless to me.

http://fooplot.com/#W3sidHlwZSI6MCwi...lwZSI6MTAwMH1d

Would you like to buy a special dual-polarity AA battery?
It's not electrically useless, it's how 240/120 is delivered to your
house on 3 wires. And your graph sure shows two phases, separated by
180 deg. How would you describe that, if not two sine waves, one
180 deg out of phase with the other?

Look like what I'd expect to see with a two channel scope.

Trace 1:Â* common on L1, signal on L2

Trace 2:Â* signal on L1, common on L2

Again, would you like to buy a magic dual-polarity AA battery?

What happened to the NEUTRAL? Do you deny that 240/120V into
a house is TWO 120V sine wave voltage sources, that are 180 deg
out of phase with each other or "of opposite polarity', which
is the same thing? That is the only way you get 240/120 on
three wires.

Or try answering the simple questions I posed from Ralph's
example of two phase, 90 deg power from 100 years ago.
It was two phase, 90 deg apart, on three wires, two hots,
common return. Rotate one
winding so instead of 90 deg, it's 100 deg. Are there still
two phases there? Rotate it to 179 deg. Still two phases?
Rotate it to 180, what happens now? What you have at 180 is
exactly what you have on 240/120V into your house.

On Wednesday, September 11, 2019 at 9:08:19 PM UTC-4, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 9/11/19 7:32 PM, trader_4 wrote:

Cut a bunch.

And again, if you would follow the very simple example I gave using
Ralph's 90 deg two phase, you'd see how electrically it is the same
as 240/120 with the exception that the phase angle is 180, instead of
90. Again:

Ralph's two phase is two phase, yes? It was three wires, 0 deg
phase hot, 90 deg phase hot, common neutral return, yes? OK,
make it 100 deg phase difference, which of course we could easily
do. Would there still be two phases
there? Make it 179, still two phases? Make it 180, what do you have
now? Still two phases or did something mysterious just happen?
And don't say those phases are "weird", it's irrelevant. We can
write the equations, solve them, for any phase angles we want.
Of course the answer is that there are still two phases there.
And then what you have is electrically the same as the 240/120 service.
They are indistinguishable. That's the beauty when you approach
things like an engineer, logically. If you don't treat it that way,
then you have holes where what should be elegant, logical and
continuous, falls apart.

Question. Would the two phase motors from days of yesteryear
start without capacitors?

Yes.

On Wed, 11 Sep 2019 17:11:55 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Wednesday, September 11, 2019 at 7:15:41 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Wed, 11 Sep 2019 11:12:58 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Wednesday, September 11, 2019 at 1:34:19 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 17:39:01 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Tuesday, September 10, 2019 at 8:16:05 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 09:05:05 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Tuesday, September 10, 2019 at 11:56:17 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 06:40:50 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

An IEEE fellow, professor
of electrical engineering,

I am talking about people in the trade, not some professor who has
never touched a piece of wire.
Terms have meanings. When you have to blur the nomenclature to get
novices to understand you corrupt the meaning of the term.

In other words, you can't handle the most basic electrical engineering
principles that show electrically what that service is. It's likeOh, p
denying that tissues are actually a soft paper product made from
trees and insisting that they are just Kleenex, that's all they are,
that's all they ever can be, because that's how they are commonly
referred to.


No people in the trade where there is life on the line use very
specific terms. Blurring them to make concepts understandable for new
students or homeowners is not what they choose to do.

Oh, please stop with the "life on the line' nonsense, like a discussion
about phase is going to kill people. And how about
answering the very simple questions I posed to Ralph:



Let's take your second example of what you
say was the old two phase power, ie 90 deg phase difference, three wires with
a common return. I changed the phase difference to 70 deg by rotating
one of the windings on the generator. Are there
still two phases there? Now I change it to 179 deg, are there still
two phases there? I change it to 181, are there still two phases there?
I change it to 180 deg, are there still two phases
there? And how is the latter any electrically different than the
3 wire 240/120V service going into a home? Describe how I could tell
from the panel in your house which of the two power sources I had
supplying it, 240/120 from pole a transformer or two phase from
Ralph's generator that I changed to 180 deg phase shift. How are
they electrically different, how do they behave differently?


You keep playing these theoretical games with weird phase angles but
the fact is the phases are going to be symmetrical in an alternator.
That can be 120 out or 90 out but each one will be the same.

Say what? In Ralph's two phase example from 100 years ago, there
are two phases, one 90 deg off from the other. Nothing symmetric
about that. If there are 3 phases, 0, 120, 240, that is symmetric.
There is no reqt that phases have to be symmetric to be phases.


12, 3, 6 and 9 on your clock are 90 out and they are very symmetrical.

OMG. There is no 12, 3, 6 and 9. In Ralph's 100 year old 90 deg
two phase example, there is only 12 and 3. Twelve being 0 degrees
and 3 o'clock being 90 deg. Two windings that are 90 deg separated
in phase. Nothing symmetrical about that.




And the reason I bring up those "weird" phase angles, is to try
to get you to see that 90 deg two phase isn't something unique,
it isn't something that defines two phase forever. If you rotate
the one winding ten more degrees, you'd have 100 deg phase difference.
Are there still two phases there? And when you rotate it to 180,
bring it into a house at 120V on 3 wires, then what you have is
electrically identical to split-phase from a transformer. You
have two 120V AC sources, 180 out of phase with each other.
You can't tell them apart.


You might be able to create a 100 degree phase shift with electronics
(using a capacitor like starting a motor) but not in an alternator.

Double OMG. It's very simple. We have two alternators on a common
shaft. Each produces a sine wave voltage. They are arranged so that
one winding is shifted 90 deg from the other. Yes? Just loosen up
the winding on one and rotate it ten more degrees. Now you have 100 deg
separation. It's quite amazing you appear to believe that in fact
90 deg is somehow special, sacred, unique and that any other phase
angle can't just as easily be produced, by simply rotating the winding
of one of the alternators.

I don't know what ralph drew but 2 phase 5 wire looks like a clock

https://www.schneider-electric.us/en/faqs/FA212438/

On Wed, 11 Sep 2019 17:32:47 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Wednesday, September 11, 2019 at 4:37:34 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 17:43:33 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Tuesday, September 10, 2019 at 8:22:06 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 14:01:50 -0400, devnull wrote:

On 9/10/19 1:05 PM, trader_4 wrote:
You might want to improve your reading comprehension skills. Neither I
nor the professor said that we would call it two phase. Only that what
is actual there are two voltage sources, two phases that are 180 deg out
of phase with each other.

You only *appear* to have two phases when you hook one pair of your oscilloscope leads up backwards.

Actually you mean when you hook your scope up in the center of the
single phase winding. I can do the same thing with 2 AA cells and make
it look like the plus end of one battery is actually minus.

Yes, how very unreasonable to hook up a scope using the system neutral,
the system reference point. Is that like an unfair magic trick?
And no, it's not hooking up the scope
backwards. Connect the ground clip to the SYSTEM NEUTRAL. Connect
one probe to L1 you get one sine wave. Connect the other probe to
L2, you get the inverse, 180 phase difference sine wave. Which of
course is exactly what the power source is, two sine wave sources
that are 180 out of phase with each other.

OK so you admit what you see is just an artifact of where you hook up
your scope.

No, it's not an artifact, you're seeing exactly what is there.
You act like I want to hook the scope ground to some bizarre point,
like out in space or tied to a water bucket. In fact, it's being
hooked to the neutral, which is the common system reference point.
Do you deny that 240/120 looks like and behaves exactly like two
120V voltage sources that are 180 deg out of phase with each other?

And again, if you would follow the very simple example I gave using
Ralph's 90 deg two phase, you'd see how electrically it is the same
as 240/120 with the exception that the phase angle is 180, instead of
90. Again:

Ralph's two phase is two phase, yes? It was three wires, 0 deg
phase hot, 90 deg phase hot, common neutral return, yes? OK,
make it 100 deg phase difference, which of course we could easily
do. Would there still be two phases
there? Make it 179, still two phases? Make it 180, what do you have
now? Still two phases or did something mysterious just happen?
And don't say those phases are "weird", it's irrelevant. We can
write the equations, solve them, for any phase angles we want.
Of course the answer is that there are still two phases there.
And then what you have is electrically the same as the 240/120 service.
They are indistinguishable. That's the beauty when you approach
things like an engineer, logically. If you don't treat it that way,
then you have holes where what should be elegant, logical and
continuous, falls apart.

There is nothing bizarre with corner grounded delta and any single
transformer is exactly like the one in front of your house.

On Wed, 11 Sep 2019 20:08:14 -0500, Dean Hoffman
wrote:

On 9/11/19 7:32 PM, trader_4 wrote:

Cut a bunch.

And again, if you would follow the very simple example I gave using
Ralph's 90 deg two phase, you'd see how electrically it is the same
as 240/120 with the exception that the phase angle is 180, instead of
90. Again:

Ralph's two phase is two phase, yes? It was three wires, 0 deg
phase hot, 90 deg phase hot, common neutral return, yes? OK,
make it 100 deg phase difference, which of course we could easily
do. Would there still be two phases
there? Make it 179, still two phases? Make it 180, what do you have
now? Still two phases or did something mysterious just happen?
And don't say those phases are "weird", it's irrelevant. We can
write the equations, solve them, for any phase angles we want.
Of course the answer is that there are still two phases there.
And then what you have is electrically the same as the 240/120 service.
They are indistinguishable. That's the beauty when you approach
things like an engineer, logically. If you don't treat it that way,
then you have holes where what should be elegant, logical and
continuous, falls apart.

Question. Would the two phase motors from days of yesteryear
start without capacitors?
For the same reason a 3 phase motor self starts. What does a capacitor
do? it puts the current out of phase with the voltage - and causes the
magnetic field to effectively rotate. Same thing a multi-phase motor
does - but the multi-phase motor does it much more efficiently. 2phase
makes a noisy motor because it bsically gets "kick - rest ,kick
-rest, kick - rest - where a 3 phase gets kick-kick-kick-kick - with
the kicks overlapping each other

On Wed, 11 Sep 2019 20:08:14 -0500, Dean Hoffman
wrote:

On 9/11/19 7:32 PM, trader_4 wrote:

Cut a bunch.

And again, if you would follow the very simple example I gave using
Ralph's 90 deg two phase, you'd see how electrically it is the same
as 240/120 with the exception that the phase angle is 180, instead of
90. Again:

Ralph's two phase is two phase, yes? It was three wires, 0 deg
phase hot, 90 deg phase hot, common neutral return, yes? OK,
make it 100 deg phase difference, which of course we could easily
do. Would there still be two phases
there? Make it 179, still two phases? Make it 180, what do you have
now? Still two phases or did something mysterious just happen?
And don't say those phases are "weird", it's irrelevant. We can
write the equations, solve them, for any phase angles we want.
Of course the answer is that there are still two phases there.
And then what you have is electrically the same as the 240/120 service.
They are indistinguishable. That's the beauty when you approach
things like an engineer, logically. If you don't treat it that way,
then you have holes where what should be elegant, logical and
continuous, falls apart.

Question. Would the two phase motors from days of yesteryear
start without capacitors?

Yes, just like a 3 phase motor since you already have a phase shift.
That is another indication that single phase is just that, you still
need a capacitor to create a phase angle no matter how you connect a
single phase motor. They do make shaded poll motors that start
without a capacitor but they do a trick with the shaded pole winding
that makes it look like there is a phase shift. They don't have much
starting torque tho.

On Wed, 11 Sep 2019 21:27:09 -0400, Mike Oxbern
wrote:

On 9/11/2019 7:54 PM, trader_4 wrote:
On Wednesday, September 11, 2019 at 3:28:12 PM UTC-4, Mike Oxbern wrote:
On 9/11/2019 2:12 PM, trader_4 wrote:
On Wednesday, September 11, 2019 at 1:34:19 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 17:39:01 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Tuesday, September 10, 2019 at 8:16:05 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 09:05:05 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Tuesday, September 10, 2019 at 11:56:17 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 06:40:50 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

An IEEE fellow, professor
of electrical engineering,
I am talking about people in the trade, not some professor who has
never touched a piece of wire.
Terms have meanings. When you have to blur the nomenclature to get
novices to understand you corrupt the meaning of the term.
In other words, you can't handle the most basic electrical engineering
principles that show electrically what that service is. It's likeOh, p
denying that tissues are actually a soft paper product made from
trees and insisting that they are just Kleenex, that's all they are,
that's all they ever can be, because that's how they are commonly
referred to.


No people in the trade where there is life on the line use very
specific terms. Blurring them to make concepts understandable for new
students or homeowners is not what they choose to do.
Oh, please stop with the "life on the line' nonsense, like a discussion
about phase is going to kill people. And how about
answering the very simple questions I posed to Ralph:



Let's take your second example of what you
say was the old two phase power, ie 90 deg phase difference, three wires with
a common return. I changed the phase difference to 70 deg by rotating
one of the windings on the generator. Are there
still two phases there? Now I change it to 179 deg, are there still
two phases there? I change it to 181, are there still two phases there?
I change it to 180 deg, are there still two phases
there? And how is the latter any electrically different than the
3 wire 240/120V service going into a home? Describe how I could tell
from the panel in your house which of the two power sources I had
supplying it, 240/120 from pole a transformer or two phase from
Ralph's generator that I changed to 180 deg phase shift. How are
they electrically different, how do they behave differently?
You keep playing these theoretical games with weird phase angles but
the fact is the phases are going to be symmetrical in an alternator.
That can be 120 out or 90 out but each one will be the same.
Say what? In Ralph's two phase example from 100 years ago, there
are two phases, one 90 deg off from the other. Nothing symmetric
about that. If there are 3 phases, 0, 120, 240, that is symmetric.
There is no reqt that phases have to be symmetric to be phases.

And the reason I bring up those "weird" phase angles, is to try
to get you to see that 90 deg two phase isn't something unique,
it isn't something that defines two phase forever. If you rotate
the one winding ten more degrees, you'd have 100 deg phase difference.
Are there still two phases there? And when you rotate it to 180,
bring it into a house at 120V on 3 wires, then what you have is
electrically identical to split-phase from a transformer. You
have two 120V AC sources, 180 out of phase with each other.
You can't tell them apart.






180 out
is simply single phase, a straight line if you remember your geometry
I am not doing this anymore.
Is it only one phase when Ralph's two phase alternator is at 90 deg,
100 deg or 179 deg phase difference? How about at 181? 270?
If you want to exclude 180 then it would have to be by definition, otherwise
it's just as valid a phase as any of the others. Excluding it would
seem rather odd, because then Ralph's alternator would have 120V
coming out of one winding, 120v with 180 deg phase difference
coming out of the other winding, so if the second one isn't a phase
what would you call it?

Here are two plots, one at 0 and one at 180 degrees.

Looks like single phase with the second plot having reversed leads.* Looks electrically useless to me.

http://fooplot.com/#W3sidHlwZSI6MCwi...lwZSI6MTAwMH1d

Would you like to buy a special dual-polarity AA battery?
It's not electrically useless, it's how 240/120 is delivered to your
house on 3 wires. And your graph sure shows two phases, separated by
180 deg. How would you describe that, if not two sine waves, one
180 deg out of phase with the other?

Look like what I'd expect to see with a two channel scope.

Trace 1:* common on L1, signal on L2

Trace 2:* signal on L1, common on L2

Again, would you like to buy a magic dual-polarity AA battery?
On a 3 phase power supply each phase is a singlr phase power sourse -
so will look like a single phase.

With a multi-trace scope, you overlay the phases and see them
displaced by 33.3% - or 120 degrees

On the old 2 phase system you would find the 2 phases overlap by 25%
- or 90 degrees.

On a split single phase they overlap 100% - or 180 degrees Connecting
the phases in parallel will cause a direct short circuit

On Wed, 11 Sep 2019 20:54:24 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Wed, 11 Sep 2019 16:37:09 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 17:43:33 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Tuesday, September 10, 2019 at 8:22:06 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 14:01:50 -0400, devnull wrote:

On 9/10/19 1:05 PM, trader_4 wrote:
You might want to improve your reading comprehension skills. Neither I
nor the professor said that we would call it two phase. Only that what
is actual there are two voltage sources, two phases that are 180 deg out
of phase with each other.

You only *appear* to have two phases when you hook one pair of your oscilloscope leads up backwards.

Actually you mean when you hook your scope up in the center of the
single phase winding. I can do the same thing with 2 AA cells and make
it look like the plus end of one battery is actually minus.

Yes, how very unreasonable to hook up a scope using the system neutral,
the system reference point. Is that like an unfair magic trick?
And no, it's not hooking up the scope
backwards. Connect the ground clip to the SYSTEM NEUTRAL. Connect
one probe to L1 you get one sine wave. Connect the other probe to
L2, you get the inverse, 180 phase difference sine wave. Which of
course is exactly what the power source is, two sine wave sources
that are 180 out of phase with each other.

OK so you admit what you see is just an artifact of where you hook up
your scope. If I corner ground a delta using exactly the same
transformer with exactly the same input you won't see anything "180"
out of phase.
In 3 phase it's all 120 degree phase shift. If you connect the scope
across a single phase, of course that is all you will see

But if I ground my scope and look at one of those corner grounded
transformers I will see 120v (RMS) at the center tap and 240v at the
opposite end, in identical phase relationship.

Trader's problem is he can't comprehend that 180 degrees is a straight
line (I guess he had a bent protractor in school) and he starts trying
to confuse the issue with impossible phase shifts.

On 9/11/19 8:36 PM, trader_4 wrote:
On Wednesday, September 11, 2019 at 9:08:19 PM UTC-4, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 9/11/19 7:32 PM, trader_4 wrote:

Cut a bunch.

And again, if you would follow the very simple example I gave using
Ralph's 90 deg two phase, you'd see how electrically it is the same
as 240/120 with the exception that the phase angle is 180, instead of
90. Again:

Ralph's two phase is two phase, yes? It was three wires, 0 deg
phase hot, 90 deg phase hot, common neutral return, yes? OK,
make it 100 deg phase difference, which of course we could easily
do. Would there still be two phases
there? Make it 179, still two phases? Make it 180, what do you have
now? Still two phases or did something mysterious just happen?
And don't say those phases are "weird", it's irrelevant. We can
write the equations, solve them, for any phase angles we want.
Of course the answer is that there are still two phases there.
And then what you have is electrically the same as the 240/120 service.
They are indistinguishable. That's the beauty when you approach
things like an engineer, logically. If you don't treat it that way,
then you have holes where what should be elegant, logical and
continuous, falls apart.

Question. Would the two phase motors from days of yesteryear
start without capacitors?

Yes.

So doesn't that render our modern 240 vac single phase motors
a special case? We call them single phase just because they don't
do the same thing as the old two phase?

On Wednesday, September 11, 2019 at 10:08:01 PM UTC-4, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Wed, 11 Sep 2019 21:27:09 -0400, Mike Oxbern
wrote:

On 9/11/2019 7:54 PM, trader_4 wrote:
On Wednesday, September 11, 2019 at 3:28:12 PM UTC-4, Mike Oxbern wrote:
On 9/11/2019 2:12 PM, trader_4 wrote:
On Wednesday, September 11, 2019 at 1:34:19 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 17:39:01 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Tuesday, September 10, 2019 at 8:16:05 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 09:05:05 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Tuesday, September 10, 2019 at 11:56:17 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 06:40:50 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

An IEEE fellow, professor
of electrical engineering,
I am talking about people in the trade, not some professor who has
never touched a piece of wire.
Terms have meanings. When you have to blur the nomenclature to get
novices to understand you corrupt the meaning of the term.
In other words, you can't handle the most basic electrical engineering
principles that show electrically what that service is. It's likeOh, p
denying that tissues are actually a soft paper product made from
trees and insisting that they are just Kleenex, that's all they are,
that's all they ever can be, because that's how they are commonly
referred to.


No people in the trade where there is life on the line use very
specific terms. Blurring them to make concepts understandable for new
students or homeowners is not what they choose to do.
Oh, please stop with the "life on the line' nonsense, like a discussion
about phase is going to kill people. And how about
answering the very simple questions I posed to Ralph:



Let's take your second example of what you
say was the old two phase power, ie 90 deg phase difference, three wires with
a common return. I changed the phase difference to 70 deg by rotating
one of the windings on the generator. Are there
still two phases there? Now I change it to 179 deg, are there still
two phases there? I change it to 181, are there still two phases there?
I change it to 180 deg, are there still two phases
there? And how is the latter any electrically different than the
3 wire 240/120V service going into a home? Describe how I could tell
from the panel in your house which of the two power sources I had
supplying it, 240/120 from pole a transformer or two phase from
Ralph's generator that I changed to 180 deg phase shift. How are
they electrically different, how do they behave differently?
You keep playing these theoretical games with weird phase angles but
the fact is the phases are going to be symmetrical in an alternator..
That can be 120 out or 90 out but each one will be the same.
Say what? In Ralph's two phase example from 100 years ago, there
are two phases, one 90 deg off from the other. Nothing symmetric
about that. If there are 3 phases, 0, 120, 240, that is symmetric.
There is no reqt that phases have to be symmetric to be phases.

And the reason I bring up those "weird" phase angles, is to try
to get you to see that 90 deg two phase isn't something unique,
it isn't something that defines two phase forever. If you rotate
the one winding ten more degrees, you'd have 100 deg phase difference.
Are there still two phases there? And when you rotate it to 180,
bring it into a house at 120V on 3 wires, then what you have is
electrically identical to split-phase from a transformer. You
have two 120V AC sources, 180 out of phase with each other.
You can't tell them apart.






180 out
is simply single phase, a straight line if you remember your geometry
I am not doing this anymore.
Is it only one phase when Ralph's two phase alternator is at 90 deg,
100 deg or 179 deg phase difference? How about at 181? 270?
If you want to exclude 180 then it would have to be by definition, otherwise
it's just as valid a phase as any of the others. Excluding it would
seem rather odd, because then Ralph's alternator would have 120V
coming out of one winding, 120v with 180 deg phase difference
coming out of the other winding, so if the second one isn't a phase
what would you call it?

Here are two plots, one at 0 and one at 180 degrees.

Looks like single phase with the second plot having reversed leads.Â* Looks electrically useless to me.

http://fooplot.com/#W3sidHlwZSI6MCwi...lwZSI6MTAwMH1d

Would you like to buy a special dual-polarity AA battery?
It's not electrically useless, it's how 240/120 is delivered to your
house on 3 wires. And your graph sure shows two phases, separated by
180 deg. How would you describe that, if not two sine waves, one
180 deg out of phase with the other?

Look like what I'd expect to see with a two channel scope.

Trace 1:Â* common on L1, signal on L2

Trace 2:Â* signal on L1, common on L2

Again, would you like to buy a magic dual-polarity AA battery?
On a 3 phase power supply each phase is a singlr phase power sourse -
so will look like a single phase.

With a multi-trace scope, you overlay the phases and see them
displaced by 33.3% - or 120 degrees

On the old 2 phase system you would find the 2 phases overlap by 25%
- or 90 degrees.

On a split single phase they overlap 100% - or 180 degrees Connecting
the phases in parallel will cause a direct short circuit

And what happens with 3 phase if you try to connect the phases
in a parallel? A direct short.

What happens with Ralph's 100 year old two phase, 90 deg
three wire power if you connect the two phases in parallel?
A direct short. Was there a point there?

Once again, a 180 deg phase difference is just one of the many
possible phase possibilities and we analyze them all the same
way, using the same rules, methods and tools.

And a 180 deg phase difference is not overlapping 100%, it's
a shift of one half period, which in that terminology would be 50%.


Now you can go ahead and say those comments are like wrestling
with a pig. But as I see it, facts are facts and you're wrong
in the above.

On Wednesday, September 11, 2019 at 10:26:01 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Wed, 11 Sep 2019 20:54:24 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Wed, 11 Sep 2019 16:37:09 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 17:43:33 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Tuesday, September 10, 2019 at 8:22:06 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 14:01:50 -0400, devnull wrote:

On 9/10/19 1:05 PM, trader_4 wrote:
You might want to improve your reading comprehension skills. Neither I
nor the professor said that we would call it two phase. Only that what
is actual there are two voltage sources, two phases that are 180 deg out
of phase with each other.

You only *appear* to have two phases when you hook one pair of your oscilloscope leads up backwards.

Actually you mean when you hook your scope up in the center of the
single phase winding. I can do the same thing with 2 AA cells and make
it look like the plus end of one battery is actually minus.

Yes, how very unreasonable to hook up a scope using the system neutral,
the system reference point. Is that like an unfair magic trick?
And no, it's not hooking up the scope
backwards. Connect the ground clip to the SYSTEM NEUTRAL. Connect
one probe to L1 you get one sine wave. Connect the other probe to
L2, you get the inverse, 180 phase difference sine wave. Which of
course is exactly what the power source is, two sine wave sources
that are 180 out of phase with each other.

OK so you admit what you see is just an artifact of where you hook up
your scope. If I corner ground a delta using exactly the same
transformer with exactly the same input you won't see anything "180"
out of phase.
In 3 phase it's all 120 degree phase shift. If you connect the scope
across a single phase, of course that is all you will see

But if I ground my scope and look at one of those corner grounded
transformers I will see 120v (RMS) at the center tap and 240v at the
opposite end, in identical phase relationship.

Trader's problem is he can't comprehend that 180 degrees is a straight
line (I guess he had a bent protractor in school) and he starts trying
to confuse the issue with impossible phase shifts.

I'd say your problem is you don't understand the definition of phase
or it's concept. That's obvious in the above statement. A 180 deg
phase difference means you have a periodic waveform that is shifted
half a period with respect to the another periodic waveform of
the same frequency. It's not a straight line anymore than the
90 deg angle in Ralph's old two phase example is a right angle.
In the case of sine waves and similar, 180 phase difference
is the opposite sine wave. In Ralph's example, it's a quarter period
shift.



http://engineering.electrical-equipm...ansformer.html

"As it can be seen from the figure that this type of configurations gives us two phases through the two parts of the secondary coil, and a total of three wires, in which the middle one, the center tapped wire is the neutral one. So this center tapped configuration is also known as a two phase- three wire transformer system."

On Wednesday, September 11, 2019 at 10:40:24 PM UTC-4, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 9/11/19 8:36 PM, trader_4 wrote:
On Wednesday, September 11, 2019 at 9:08:19 PM UTC-4, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 9/11/19 7:32 PM, trader_4 wrote:

Cut a bunch.

And again, if you would follow the very simple example I gave using
Ralph's 90 deg two phase, you'd see how electrically it is the same
as 240/120 with the exception that the phase angle is 180, instead of
90. Again:

Ralph's two phase is two phase, yes? It was three wires, 0 deg
phase hot, 90 deg phase hot, common neutral return, yes? OK,
make it 100 deg phase difference, which of course we could easily
do. Would there still be two phases
there? Make it 179, still two phases? Make it 180, what do you have
now? Still two phases or did something mysterious just happen?
And don't say those phases are "weird", it's irrelevant. We can
write the equations, solve them, for any phase angles we want.
Of course the answer is that there are still two phases there.
And then what you have is electrically the same as the 240/120 service.
They are indistinguishable. That's the beauty when you approach
things like an engineer, logically. If you don't treat it that way,
then you have holes where what should be elegant, logical and
continuous, falls apart.

Question. Would the two phase motors from days of yesteryear
start without capacitors?

Yes.

So doesn't that render our modern 240 vac single phase motors
a special case? We call them single phase just because they don't
do the same thing as the old two phase?

There are two phases internally when the cap is in the circuit.
That's why it's there, to give a phase shift.
We call the motor single phase, because they run off a single phase
circuit.

On Wednesday, September 11, 2019 at 9:57:53 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Wed, 11 Sep 2019 17:11:55 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Wednesday, September 11, 2019 at 7:15:41 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Wed, 11 Sep 2019 11:12:58 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Wednesday, September 11, 2019 at 1:34:19 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 17:39:01 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Tuesday, September 10, 2019 at 8:16:05 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 09:05:05 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Tuesday, September 10, 2019 at 11:56:17 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 06:40:50 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

An IEEE fellow, professor
of electrical engineering,

I am talking about people in the trade, not some professor who has
never touched a piece of wire.
Terms have meanings. When you have to blur the nomenclature to get
novices to understand you corrupt the meaning of the term.

In other words, you can't handle the most basic electrical engineering
principles that show electrically what that service is. It's likeOh, p
denying that tissues are actually a soft paper product made from
trees and insisting that they are just Kleenex, that's all they are,
that's all they ever can be, because that's how they are commonly
referred to.


No people in the trade where there is life on the line use very
specific terms. Blurring them to make concepts understandable for new
students or homeowners is not what they choose to do.

Oh, please stop with the "life on the line' nonsense, like a discussion
about phase is going to kill people. And how about
answering the very simple questions I posed to Ralph:



Let's take your second example of what you
say was the old two phase power, ie 90 deg phase difference, three wires with
a common return. I changed the phase difference to 70 deg by rotating
one of the windings on the generator. Are there
still two phases there? Now I change it to 179 deg, are there still
two phases there? I change it to 181, are there still two phases there?
I change it to 180 deg, are there still two phases
there? And how is the latter any electrically different than the
3 wire 240/120V service going into a home? Describe how I could tell
from the panel in your house which of the two power sources I had
supplying it, 240/120 from pole a transformer or two phase from
Ralph's generator that I changed to 180 deg phase shift. How are
they electrically different, how do they behave differently?


You keep playing these theoretical games with weird phase angles but
the fact is the phases are going to be symmetrical in an alternator..
That can be 120 out or 90 out but each one will be the same.

Say what? In Ralph's two phase example from 100 years ago, there
are two phases, one 90 deg off from the other. Nothing symmetric
about that. If there are 3 phases, 0, 120, 240, that is symmetric.
There is no reqt that phases have to be symmetric to be phases.


12, 3, 6 and 9 on your clock are 90 out and they are very symmetrical.

OMG. There is no 12, 3, 6 and 9. In Ralph's 100 year old 90 deg
two phase example, there is only 12 and 3. Twelve being 0 degrees
and 3 o'clock being 90 deg. Two windings that are 90 deg separated
in phase. Nothing symmetrical about that.




And the reason I bring up those "weird" phase angles, is to try
to get you to see that 90 deg two phase isn't something unique,
it isn't something that defines two phase forever. If you rotate
the one winding ten more degrees, you'd have 100 deg phase difference..
Are there still two phases there? And when you rotate it to 180,
bring it into a house at 120V on 3 wires, then what you have is
electrically identical to split-phase from a transformer. You
have two 120V AC sources, 180 out of phase with each other.
You can't tell them apart.


You might be able to create a 100 degree phase shift with electronics
(using a capacitor like starting a motor) but not in an alternator.

Double OMG. It's very simple. We have two alternators on a common
shaft. Each produces a sine wave voltage. They are arranged so that
one winding is shifted 90 deg from the other. Yes? Just loosen up
the winding on one and rotate it ten more degrees. Now you have 100 deg
separation. It's quite amazing you appear to believe that in fact
90 deg is somehow special, sacred, unique and that any other phase
angle can't just as easily be produced, by simply rotating the winding
of one of the alternators.

I don't know what ralph drew but 2 phase 5 wire looks like a clock

https://www.schneider-electric.us/en/faqs/FA212438/

This is what Ralph put forth:


"Two circuits were used, with voltage phases differing by one-quarter of a cycle, 90°.
Usually circuits used four wires, two for each phase. Less frequently,
three wires were used, with a common wire with a larger-diameter
conductor. Some early two-phase generators had two complete rotor and
field assemblies, with windings physically offset to provide two-phase
power. "

I chose the second, three wire example and showed you how
by simply changing the phase angle it becomes exactly the same as
240/120 split phase going into your house. But you deflect
claiming that those are "weird" phase angles, that you can't
build a generator with whatever phase angle you want,
etc. I could make you two simple generators, put
them on the same shaft and get whatever phase angle difference
between them that I wanted by simply rotating the winding on one.
Same rules, same methods, same analysis applies to any
number of phases and any phase angles.

On Wednesday, September 11, 2019 at 10:07:43 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Wed, 11 Sep 2019 20:08:14 -0500, Dean Hoffman
wrote:

On 9/11/19 7:32 PM, trader_4 wrote:

Cut a bunch.

And again, if you would follow the very simple example I gave using
Ralph's 90 deg two phase, you'd see how electrically it is the same
as 240/120 with the exception that the phase angle is 180, instead of
90. Again:

Ralph's two phase is two phase, yes? It was three wires, 0 deg
phase hot, 90 deg phase hot, common neutral return, yes? OK,
make it 100 deg phase difference, which of course we could easily
do. Would there still be two phases
there? Make it 179, still two phases? Make it 180, what do you have
now? Still two phases or did something mysterious just happen?
And don't say those phases are "weird", it's irrelevant. We can
write the equations, solve them, for any phase angles we want.
Of course the answer is that there are still two phases there.
And then what you have is electrically the same as the 240/120 service.
They are indistinguishable. That's the beauty when you approach
things like an engineer, logically. If you don't treat it that way,
then you have holes where what should be elegant, logical and
continuous, falls apart.

Question. Would the two phase motors from days of yesteryear
start without capacitors?

Yes, just like a 3 phase motor since you already have a phase shift.
That is another indication that single phase is just that, you still
need a capacitor to create a phase angle no matter how you connect a
single phase motor.

The fact that a 180 deg phase difference can't be used to
create a direction of rotation doesn't mean that a 180 deg
phase doesn't exist. Again, if you would follow the simple
questions I outlined from Ralph's old two phase 90, taking
it from what everyone agrees was two phase, to other phase
angles, you'd see that.

On 9/11/19 3:47 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 11 Sep 2019 06:29:18 -0400, devnull wrote:

Yes, water is 3-phase. ;-)

Liquid, solid or gas

I forgot the name, but there's one where the conditions say water should
be solid, but it is liquid.

--
104 days until the winter celebration (Wed, Dec 25, 2019 12:00:00 AM for
1 day).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to
pause and reflect. -- Mark Twain (1835-1910)"

On 9/11/19 6:15 PM, wrote:

[snip]

12, 3, 6 and 9 on your clock are 90 out and they are very symmetrical.

so are 1,4,7,10 but not 2,3,7,12.

That reminds me of the "clock arithmetic" we had in school once, where 1
- 2 = 11. It's mod12 where you say 12 when you really mean 0.

[snip]

You might be able to create a 100 degree phase shift with electronics
(using a capacitor like starting a motor) but not in an alternator.

I suppose you could if it was wound right.

--
104 days until the winter celebration (Wed, Dec 25, 2019 12:00:00 AM for
1 day).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to
pause and reflect. -- Mark Twain (1835-1910)"

On Thursday, September 12, 2019 at 9:55:03 AM UTC-4, Mark Lloyd wrote:
On 9/11/19 6:15 PM, wrote:

[snip]

12, 3, 6 and 9 on your clock are 90 out and they are very symmetrical.

so are 1,4,7,10 but not 2,3,7,12.

That reminds me of the "clock arithmetic" we had in school once, where 1
- 2 = 11. It's mod12 where you say 12 when you really mean 0.

[snip]

You might be able to create a 100 degree phase shift with electronics
(using a capacitor like starting a motor) but not in an alternator.

I suppose you could if it was wound right.

--
104 days until the winter celebration (Wed, Dec 25, 2019 12:00:00 AM for
1 day).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to
pause and reflect. -- Mark Twain (1835-1910)"

One more time, all you have to do is rotate the winding to get whatever
phase difference you want between two generators on a common shaft.
IDK why that concept is so hard.

On Wed, 11 Sep 2019 22:25:35 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 11 Sep 2019 20:54:24 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Wed, 11 Sep 2019 16:37:09 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 17:43:33 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Tuesday, September 10, 2019 at 8:22:06 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 14:01:50 -0400, devnull wrote:

On 9/10/19 1:05 PM, trader_4 wrote:
You might want to improve your reading comprehension skills. Neither I
nor the professor said that we would call it two phase. Only that what
is actual there are two voltage sources, two phases that are 180 deg out
of phase with each other.

You only *appear* to have two phases when you hook one pair of your oscilloscope leads up backwards.

Actually you mean when you hook your scope up in the center of the
single phase winding. I can do the same thing with 2 AA cells and make
it look like the plus end of one battery is actually minus.

Yes, how very unreasonable to hook up a scope using the system neutral,
the system reference point. Is that like an unfair magic trick?
And no, it's not hooking up the scope
backwards. Connect the ground clip to the SYSTEM NEUTRAL. Connect
one probe to L1 you get one sine wave. Connect the other probe to
L2, you get the inverse, 180 phase difference sine wave. Which of
course is exactly what the power source is, two sine wave sources
that are 180 out of phase with each other.

OK so you admit what you see is just an artifact of where you hook up
your scope. If I corner ground a delta using exactly the same
transformer with exactly the same input you won't see anything "180"
out of phase.
In 3 phase it's all 120 degree phase shift. If you connect the scope
across a single phase, of course that is all you will see

But if I ground my scope and look at one of those corner grounded
transformers I will see 120v (RMS) at the center tap and 240v at the
opposite end, in identical phase relationship.

Trader's problem is he can't comprehend that 180 degrees is a straight
line (I guess he had a bent protractor in school) and he starts trying
to confuse the issue with impossible phase shifts.
That's the least of his problems - - - -

On Wed, 11 Sep 2019 21:40:20 -0500, Dean Hoffman
wrote:

On 9/11/19 8:36 PM, trader_4 wrote:
On Wednesday, September 11, 2019 at 9:08:19 PM UTC-4, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 9/11/19 7:32 PM, trader_4 wrote:

Cut a bunch.

And again, if you would follow the very simple example I gave using
Ralph's 90 deg two phase, you'd see how electrically it is the same
as 240/120 with the exception that the phase angle is 180, instead of
90. Again:

Ralph's two phase is two phase, yes? It was three wires, 0 deg
phase hot, 90 deg phase hot, common neutral return, yes? OK,
make it 100 deg phase difference, which of course we could easily
do. Would there still be two phases
there? Make it 179, still two phases? Make it 180, what do you have
now? Still two phases or did something mysterious just happen?
And don't say those phases are "weird", it's irrelevant. We can
write the equations, solve them, for any phase angles we want.
Of course the answer is that there are still two phases there.
And then what you have is electrically the same as the 240/120 service.
They are indistinguishable. That's the beauty when you approach
things like an engineer, logically. If you don't treat it that way,
then you have holes where what should be elegant, logical and
continuous, falls apart.

Question. Would the two phase motors from days of yesteryear
start without capacitors?

Yes.

So doesn't that render our modern 240 vac single phase motors
a special case? We call them single phase just because they don't
do the same thing as the old two phase?
No - they ARE single phase - they are NOT a special case. Try to buy
a 2 phase motor. They are virtually unavaolable "off the shelf"
because there is SUCH a limitted market for them. Single phase motors
will be used almost exclusively in those very rare locations where 2
phase power is still actually available - and they will be run on one
of the two phases - just like a single phase motor in the 3 phase
world. It is IMPOSSIBLE to connect a single phase motor to either a 2
phase or 3 phase circuit and have it run multi-phase - there are not
enough wires!!!!

On Thu, 12 Sep 2019 08:54:58 -0500, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

On 9/11/19 6:15 PM, wrote:

[snip]

12, 3, 6 and 9 on your clock are 90 out and they are very symmetrical.

so are 1,4,7,10 but not 2,3,7,12.

That reminds me of the "clock arithmetic" we had in school once, where 1
- 2 = 11. It's mod12 where you say 12 when you really mean 0.

[snip]

You might be able to create a 100 degree phase shift with electronics
(using a capacitor like starting a motor) but not in an alternator.

I suppose you could if it was wound right.
Would be awfulldifficult to balance both statically and under load
though - - - - --

On Thursday, September 12, 2019 at 2:15:39 PM UTC-4, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Thu, 12 Sep 2019 08:54:58 -0500, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

On 9/11/19 6:15 PM, wrote:

[snip]

12, 3, 6 and 9 on your clock are 90 out and they are very symmetrical.

so are 1,4,7,10 but not 2,3,7,12.

That reminds me of the "clock arithmetic" we had in school once, where 1
- 2 = 11. It's mod12 where you say 12 when you really mean 0.

[snip]

You might be able to create a 100 degree phase shift with electronics
(using a capacitor like starting a motor) but not in an alternator.

I suppose you could if it was wound right.
Would be awfulldifficult to balance both statically and under load
though - - - - --

And why would that be? If 90 deg isn't a balancing problem, why is rotating the winding ten more degrees suddenly a problem? Take a portable generator. If I rotated the windings, why is there suddenly a balance problem? Take a portable generator and imagine just extending the shaft to a second generator, ignoring any hp issue. I can rotate the second generator to get any phase angle, 0 to 359 degrees between it's output and the first generator's output. Now you have two phase power at any phase difference you want.

On Thu, 12 Sep 2019 12:25:54 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Thursday, September 12, 2019 at 2:15:39 PM UTC-4, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Thu, 12 Sep 2019 08:54:58 -0500, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

On 9/11/19 6:15 PM, wrote:

[snip]

12, 3, 6 and 9 on your clock are 90 out and they are very symmetrical.

so are 1,4,7,10 but not 2,3,7,12.

That reminds me of the "clock arithmetic" we had in school once, where 1
- 2 = 11. It's mod12 where you say 12 when you really mean 0.

[snip]

You might be able to create a 100 degree phase shift with electronics
(using a capacitor like starting a motor) but not in an alternator.

I suppose you could if it was wound right.
Would be awfulldifficult to balance both statically and under load
though - - - - --

And why would that be? If 90 deg isn't a balancing problem, why is rotating the winding ten more degrees suddenly a problem? Take a portable generator. If I rotated the windings, why is there suddenly a balance problem? Take a portable generator and imagine just extending the shaft to a second generator, ignoring any hp issue. I can rotate the second generator to get any phase angle, 0 to 359 degrees between it's output and the first generator's output. Now you have two phase power at any phase difference you want.

You want the rotating field to be symmetrical.

On Thursday, September 12, 2019 at 3:44:40 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Thu, 12 Sep 2019 12:25:54 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Thursday, September 12, 2019 at 2:15:39 PM UTC-4, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Thu, 12 Sep 2019 08:54:58 -0500, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

On 9/11/19 6:15 PM, wrote:

[snip]

12, 3, 6 and 9 on your clock are 90 out and they are very symmetrical.

so are 1,4,7,10 but not 2,3,7,12.

That reminds me of the "clock arithmetic" we had in school once, where 1
- 2 = 11. It's mod12 where you say 12 when you really mean 0.

[snip]

You might be able to create a 100 degree phase shift with electronics
(using a capacitor like starting a motor) but not in an alternator.

I suppose you could if it was wound right.
Would be awfulldifficult to balance both statically and under load
though - - - - --

And why would that be? If 90 deg isn't a balancing problem, why is rotating the winding ten more degrees suddenly a problem? Take a portable generator. If I rotated the windings, why is there suddenly a balance problem? Take a portable generator and imagine just extending the shaft to a second generator, ignoring any hp issue. I can rotate the second generator to get any phase angle, 0 to 359 degrees between it's output and the first generator's output. Now you have two phase power at any phase difference you want.

You want the rotating field to be symmetrical.

Each of those generators above is symmetrical. Round and round they spin.
If you mean with respect to each other, 90 deg two phase sure wasn't symmetrical. There was a winding producing 0 deg and another producing
at 90 deg phase shift and seems Philly, Niagara Falls etc didn't
seem to have balance problems or shake apart.... It's just
how many degrees apart one winding is positioned relative to the other that
determines the phase relationship.

On Thu, 12 Sep 2019 15:44:10 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 12 Sep 2019 12:25:54 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Thursday, September 12, 2019 at 2:15:39 PM UTC-4, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Thu, 12 Sep 2019 08:54:58 -0500, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

On 9/11/19 6:15 PM, wrote:

[snip]

12, 3, 6 and 9 on your clock are 90 out and they are very symmetrical.

so are 1,4,7,10 but not 2,3,7,12.

That reminds me of the "clock arithmetic" we had in school once, where 1
- 2 = 11. It's mod12 where you say 12 when you really mean 0.

[snip]

You might be able to create a 100 degree phase shift with electronics
(using a capacitor like starting a motor) but not in an alternator.

I suppose you could if it was wound right.
Would be awfulldifficult to balance both statically and under load
though - - - - --

And why would that be? If 90 deg isn't a balancing problem, why is rotating the winding ten more degrees suddenly a problem? Take a portable generator. If I rotated the windings, why is there suddenly a balance problem? Take a portable generator and imagine just extending the shaft to a second generator, ignoring any hp issue. I can rotate the second generator to get any phase angle, 0 to 359 degrees between it's output and the first generator's output. Now you have two phase power at any phase difference you want.

You want the rotating field to be symmetrical.
Real simple.
a single full turn of a generator is 360 degrees.There are 2
polarities, so a single phase reversal takes 180 degrees.
Multiple phases in a single rotation need to be evenly devided.
90 degrees would produce either 2 phase or 4. deviding by 3 gives 3
phase at 120 degrees. 60 degrees gives 6 phases. 45 degrees gives 8
phase. 30 degrees gives 12 phase, and 12.5 degrees gives 16.


This refers to the OFFSET of the multiple windings in a stator, using
a single bipolar rotor where the frequency is equal to RPM

Using a 4 pole or 6 pole or 8 pole rotor, etc, limits the number of
phases that can be generated.the number of degrees of separation needs
to be evenly devisable by the number of poles.(which MUST be an even
number)

A 3 phase alternator generally uses 24 poles - but could use 12 or 6 .
Being exclusively bipolar 3 cannot work

Unless you can redifine a complete revollution as something other
than 360 degrees, 100 degrees can NOT work. Nor can 179 or 119 or 121.

And even 2 phase at 90 degrees would require 4 poles.

Not sure how 4 or 8 phase would even work, electrically as I suspect
half of the phases would duplicate each other - - - - - -

On Thu, 12 Sep 2019 13:34:35 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Thursday, September 12, 2019 at 3:44:40 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Thu, 12 Sep 2019 12:25:54 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Thursday, September 12, 2019 at 2:15:39 PM UTC-4, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Thu, 12 Sep 2019 08:54:58 -0500, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

On 9/11/19 6:15 PM, wrote:

[snip]

12, 3, 6 and 9 on your clock are 90 out and they are very symmetrical.

so are 1,4,7,10 but not 2,3,7,12.

That reminds me of the "clock arithmetic" we had in school once, where 1
- 2 = 11. It's mod12 where you say 12 when you really mean 0.

[snip]

You might be able to create a 100 degree phase shift with electronics
(using a capacitor like starting a motor) but not in an alternator.

I suppose you could if it was wound right.
Would be awfulldifficult to balance both statically and under load
though - - - - --

And why would that be? If 90 deg isn't a balancing problem, why is rotating the winding ten more degrees suddenly a problem? Take a portable generator. If I rotated the windings, why is there suddenly a balance problem? Take a portable generator and imagine just extending the shaft to a second generator, ignoring any hp issue. I can rotate the second generator to get any phase angle, 0 to 359 degrees between it's output and the first generator's output. Now you have two phase power at any phase difference you want.

You want the rotating field to be symmetrical.

Each of those generators above is symmetrical. Round and round they spin.
If you mean with respect to each other, 90 deg two phase sure wasn't symmetrical. There was a winding producing 0 deg and another producing
at 90 deg phase shift and seems Philly, Niagara Falls etc didn't
seem to have balance problems or shake apart.... It's just
how many degrees apart one winding is positioned relative to the other that
determines the phase relationship.

There are 2 sets of coils displaced by 90 degrees and they look like
this +
4 points on the circle. Just like 12, 3, 6, 9 on your clock.
It is typically delivered on 5 wires not 3 like you would if it was L
as you theorize.

On Thu, 12 Sep 2019 20:52:49 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 12 Sep 2019 13:34:35 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Thursday, September 12, 2019 at 3:44:40 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Thu, 12 Sep 2019 12:25:54 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Thursday, September 12, 2019 at 2:15:39 PM UTC-4, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Thu, 12 Sep 2019 08:54:58 -0500, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

On 9/11/19 6:15 PM, wrote:

[snip]

12, 3, 6 and 9 on your clock are 90 out and they are very symmetrical.

so are 1,4,7,10 but not 2,3,7,12.

That reminds me of the "clock arithmetic" we had in school once, where 1
- 2 = 11. It's mod12 where you say 12 when you really mean 0.

[snip]

You might be able to create a 100 degree phase shift with electronics
(using a capacitor like starting a motor) but not in an alternator.

I suppose you could if it was wound right.
Would be awfulldifficult to balance both statically and under load
though - - - - --

And why would that be? If 90 deg isn't a balancing problem, why is rotating the winding ten more degrees suddenly a problem? Take a portable generator. If I rotated the windings, why is there suddenly a balance problem? Take a portable generator and imagine just extending the shaft to a second generator, ignoring any hp issue. I can rotate the second generator to get any phase angle, 0 to 359 degrees between it's output and the first generator's output. Now you have two phase power at any phase difference you want.

You want the rotating field to be symmetrical.

Each of those generators above is symmetrical. Round and round they spin.
If you mean with respect to each other, 90 deg two phase sure wasn't symmetrical. There was a winding producing 0 deg and another producing
at 90 deg phase shift and seems Philly, Niagara Falls etc didn't
seem to have balance problems or shake apart.... It's just
how many degrees apart one winding is positioned relative to the other that
determines the phase relationship.

There are 2 sets of coils displaced by 90 degrees and they look like
this +
4 points on the circle. Just like 12, 3, 6, 9 on your clock.
It is typically delivered on 5 wires not 3 like you would if it was L
as you theorize.
I just figured that out as I was going through my last post - 2
phase is 4 phase - stacked

On Thursday, September 12, 2019 at 8:53:19 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Thu, 12 Sep 2019 13:34:35 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Thursday, September 12, 2019 at 3:44:40 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Thu, 12 Sep 2019 12:25:54 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Thursday, September 12, 2019 at 2:15:39 PM UTC-4, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Thu, 12 Sep 2019 08:54:58 -0500, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

On 9/11/19 6:15 PM, wrote:

[snip]

12, 3, 6 and 9 on your clock are 90 out and they are very symmetrical.

so are 1,4,7,10 but not 2,3,7,12.

That reminds me of the "clock arithmetic" we had in school once, where 1
- 2 = 11. It's mod12 where you say 12 when you really mean 0.

[snip]

You might be able to create a 100 degree phase shift with electronics
(using a capacitor like starting a motor) but not in an alternator.

I suppose you could if it was wound right.
Would be awfulldifficult to balance both statically and under load
though - - - - --

And why would that be? If 90 deg isn't a balancing problem, why is rotating the winding ten more degrees suddenly a problem? Take a portable generator. If I rotated the windings, why is there suddenly a balance problem? Take a portable generator and imagine just extending the shaft to a second generator, ignoring any hp issue. I can rotate the second generator to get any phase angle, 0 to 359 degrees between it's output and the first generator's output. Now you have two phase power at any phase difference you want.

In article ,
says...

Simple fact, the example Ralph provided is two phase power. And phase
is not limited to 90 deg, you can make it anything you want, just
rotate the second winding. Of course in physics and engineering, we
don't need to create it physically at all to analyze it, we can do
that on a piece of paper. We take two voltage source


Your simple fact is wrong. For the reason as you take one of the
windings and rotate it say 45 deg as you say. I don't know what it will
look like or what to call it, but during part of the cycle you will have
one winding 45 deg out of phase and the other 135 deg out of phase
during parts of the cycle.. Really a weard wave form. You would have
to add extra windings to get things to even out and may not wven be able
to do that if you just give it a slight rotation of say 5 deg.


The argument is useless as there is a definition of two phase power and
the split phase power as in power distribution circuits. It may very
well be something else or even called something else in other countries
or areas of electricity. Just as if yo go to the local lumber store and
ask for a 2x4 8 feet long. The board you get will not measure 2 inch or
4 inches in any direction. Standard iron pipe will not measure what it
is called either . But it is what it is by definition.



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On Friday, September 13, 2019 at 10:22:46 AM UTC-4, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article ,
says...

Simple fact, the example Ralph provided is two phase power. And phase
is not limited to 90 deg, you can make it anything you want, just
rotate the second winding. Of course in physics and engineering, we
don't need to create it physically at all to analyze it, we can do
that on a piece of paper. We take two voltage source


Your simple fact is wrong.

What fact is wrong? I used your example of a two phase power source.


For the reason as you take one of the
windings and rotate it say 45 deg as you say. I don't know what it will
look like or what to call it,

Then if you don't know, maybe you should just stop right there?


but during part of the cycle you will have
one winding 45 deg out of phase and the other 135 deg out of phase
during parts of the cycle.. Really a weard wave form. You would have
to add extra windings to get things to even out and may not wven be able
to do that if you just give it a slight rotation of say 5 deg.

Why is it not weird at 90 deg? You said that was two phase power,
right? Why is it so hard to understand that I can simply rotate the winding
and get whatever phase angle I want? Is it weird at 89 deg? 95 deg?
That's what logical people do, it's a question a curious student trying
to learn would ask a science teacher. Why is it that 90 deg is so special?
Does it have to be 90? The answer of
course is that it's not, it's just that was one implementation of two
phase power. The general case is two power sources:

sine(wt)
sine (wt+O) where O can be 0 to 359 deg

Your Philly case of 100 years ago, used O=90. That's all there is too it.

Three phase

sine(wt)
sine(wt+O)
sine (wt+P)

If O=P=120, then you have the three phase that's actually implemented today.
But that does not mean that's the only phase angles allowed, that we can't
analyze what happens at all the other possible phase angles. It's
no different than the cases with differing voltages or frequencies.
Yes, 72 volts, 450Hz or whatever are not implemented, but that doesn't
mean that 3 voltage sources, per the above, would not have 3 phases,
that it can't exist, that we can't analyze it.








The argument is useless as there is a definition of two phase power and
the split phase power as in power distribution circuits.

Again, like the other poster tried to explain to you, *one implementation*
of two phase power does not make that the definition of it. That is
like saying an airplane was defined by the bi-plane, no other airplane
can exist.






It may very
well be something else or even called something else in other countries
or areas of electricity. Just as if yo go to the local lumber store and
ask for a 2x4 8 feet long. The board you get will not measure 2 inch or
4 inches in any direction. Standard iron pipe will not measure what it
is called either . But it is what it is by definition.

We're not talking about what it's called, we're talking about analyzing
in electrical engineering terms, what is actually there. Again, this
is like insisting that Kleenex is only Kleenex, that Kleenex is the
definition and to analyze it and describe it as a soft paper product made
from trees incorrect.

On 9/13/19 8:37 AM, trader_4 wrote:

A bunch cut.

Simple fact, the example Ralph provided is two phase power. And phase
is not limited to 90 deg, you can make it anything you want, just
rotate the second winding. Of course in physics and engineering, we
don't need to create it physically at all to analyze it, we can do
that on a piece of paper. We take two voltage sources:

120 Sine(wt)
120 Sine (wt+O) where O is 0 to 359

Connect them on a common return, we have three wires, the same thing as
Ralph's example. Set O=180, what you have is another version of Ralph's
two phase power, the same thing as 240/120 into your house, two voltage
sources, 180 deg out of phase with each other.

But isn't there a point where two phase ceases to exist and
becomes single
phase? Wouldn't that be the point where capacitors or a start winding
are needed to start motors? Practically speaking. That's what I was
trying to get around to earlier.

Someone you know really well wrote this at 8:19 am on 9/12.

"There are two phases internally when the cap is in the circuit.
That's why it's there, to give a phase shift.
We call the motor single phase, because they run off a single phase
circuit."