In article , Libor Striz
wrote:

Are the Google Maps for iOS as well ??

yes.

That is news to me, I would
consider it as "Apple heresy".

why?

I just guess, either iOS has equivalent location service,

it does.

either GM for iOS is compiled not to rely on such a service.

the ios version of google maps uses google's map data.

Ragnusen Ultred Wrote in message:
Am Sat, 31 Mar 2018 08:46:19 +0200 (GMT+02:00), schrieb Libor Striz:

No idea, I have no experience with iOS, noe how it manages
location queries.
Within the Android group, I speak in Android context.

Fair enough.

I didn't think iOS is different than Android in terms of how Google Maps works.


Why though, would Google Maps do things differently on iOS than on Android
given the same lack of GPS and cellular capability?

Are the Google Maps for iOS as well ?? That is news to me, I would
consider it as "Apple heresy".

I just guess, either iOS has equivalent location service,
either GM for iOS is compiled not to rely on such a service.


--
Libor Striz aka Poutnik ( a pilgrim/wanderer/wayfarer)


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

Ragnusen Ultred wrote:

the tablet doesn't have cellular or GPS
capabilities, so I had assumed that the tablet couldn't do map routing on
the road, but it turns out that it can do map routing on the road even
without GPS or cellular signal.
So I'm just asking a simple technical question of /how/ it does that.

iBeacons?

Dne 31/03/2018 v 09:24 nospam napsal(a):
In article , Libor Striz
wrote:

Are the Google Maps for iOS as well ??

yes.

That is news to me, I would
consider it as "Apple heresy".

why?

Like "Google are bad guys and good Apple guys
use nothing from them." :-)

I just guess, either iOS has equivalent location service,

it does.

either GM for iOS is compiled not to rely on such a service.

the ios version of google maps uses google's map data.

Sure, what other data it should use ?
But map data and location service are very different things.


--
Poutnik ( The Pilgrim, Der Wanderer )

A wise man guards words he says,
as they say about him more,
than he says about the subject.

Dne 31/03/2018 v 04:54 Ragnusen Ultred napsal(a):
Am Fri, 30 Mar 2018 22:56:27 +0100, schrieb Andy Burns:

You omit to say what O/S it is using.

I wasn't sure if it mattered which operating system the tablet is using
because I'm asking about Google Maps app location tracking without cellular
or GPS.

Android applications and I suppose iOS ones as well
do not determine location on their own,
but ask the OS what the location is.

So OS does matter, as how it is done is the OS business.

I have few strange questions:

Does it track you only within ranges of supposed Wifis ?

or

Does it even track you without any wifi in the range ?

In case of the former,

Does it track you only at known locations,
where the device has been before ?

Does it track you even at new locations
with wifis unknown to the device ?

It seems to me not probable
to have pre-downloaded all wifi location database.
Perhaps, it may predownload the data for nearby area only.

I would rather believe the tablet does not behave
in the way you suppose it to behave.

Sometimes a particular HW is present,
but not available for the user rather for business reasons,
being either deactivated or just not used.

It is cheaper to produce 1 version
and selectively disable optional features.
Or, selectively disable it just for user applications,
but not for the OS.

E.g. Xiaomi MI A1 does have the FM radio chip,
( one can listen the radio via the service menu )
but it is not mentioned in manual
and there is no builtin nor downloadable FM application
that would work.


--
Poutnik ( The Pilgrim, Der Wanderer )

A wise man guards words he says,
as they say about him more,
than he says about the subject.

On 2018-03-31 06:54, Ragnusen Ultred wrote:
Am Fri, 30 Mar 2018 23:58:54 -0400, schrieb nospam:

they are.

apple combines both gps and cellular for assistive gps. without
cellular, the time for an initial gps fix can potentially be very long.

Does that statement apply to the Wifi-only Apple iPad that has no GPS
nor cellular chip?

How can GPS fix apply to a device with no GPS? The question is nonsensical.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

In article , Andy Burns
wrote:

iBeacons?

ibeacons are generally used to map *indoor* areas, such as museums,
shopping malls, sports arenas, etc.

In article , Libor 'Poutnik' St?í?
wrote:

Android applications and I suppose iOS ones as well
do not determine location on their own,
but ask the OS what the location is.

correct.

So OS does matter, as how it is done is the OS business.

I have few strange questions:

Does it track you only within ranges of supposed Wifis ?

location can be determined via one or more of wifi, cellular, gps
and/or bluetooth, depending many factors.

or

Does it even track you without any wifi in the range ?

it can, but obviously not via wifi.

In case of the former,

Does it track you only at known locations,
where the device has been before ?

for wifi, no.

Does it track you even at new locations
with wifis unknown to the device ?

for wifi, yes.

It seems to me not probable
to have pre-downloaded all wifi location database.
Perhaps, it may predownload the data for nearby area only.

correct.

only a very small subset is kept on the device, which is for the local
area.

the entire database covers the entire world. there is no reason to
cache all of it.

I would rather believe the tablet does not behave
in the way you suppose it to behave.

Sometimes a particular HW is present,
but not available for the user rather for business reasons,
being either deactivated or just not used.

very rarely.

in this case, there are two versions of the ipad, a wifi-only model and
one with cellular/gps.

It is cheaper to produce 1 version
and selectively disable optional features.
Or, selectively disable it just for user applications,
but not for the OS.

except when the additional features incur a significant cost, as with
the cellular/gps ipad, largely due to qualcomm's licensing fees.

E.g. Xiaomi MI A1 does have the FM radio chip,
( one can listen the radio via the service menu )
but it is not mentioned in manual
and there is no builtin nor downloadable FM application
that would work.

that's only because the chipset they use already has fm.

In article , Carlos E.R.
wrote:

On 2018-03-31 06:54, Ragnusen Ultred wrote:
apple combines both gps and cellular for assistive gps. without
cellular, the time for an initial gps fix can potentially be very long.

Does that statement apply to the Wifi-only Apple iPad that has no GPS
nor cellular chip?

How can GPS fix apply to a device with no GPS? The question is nonsensical.

nearly all of what he posts is nonsensical.

Ragnusen Ultred wrote:
[...]
The technical question of what Google Maps is using,
possible together or alone:

1. Is Google using the geolocation of the *connected* WiFi access point?
2. Or is Google using the geolocation of many *unconnected* Wi-Fi APs?

Why do you keep re-asking a question which already has been answered
several times (in this thread)? [1]

'Normally', you keep re-asking when you don't like the answer, i.e.
nearly always. What's your problem this time? [1]

NOTE: When you're on the road, you won't be connected to anything but
wide-open access points, and even then, the tablet might be set to ask
before connecting, so that's why the answer to the question matters.

[1] This is one of them rethorical (hysterical?) thingies.

Dne 31/03/2018 v 16:14 nospam napsal(a):
In article , Libor 'Poutnik' St?Ã*?
wrote:


Does it track you only within ranges of supposed Wifis ?

location can be determined via one or more of wifi, cellular, gps
and/or bluetooth, depending many factors.

Imagine I know it well.

Does it even track you without any wifi in the range ?

it can, but obviously not via wifi.

Imagine I know it well.


In case of the former,

Does it track you only at known locations,
where the device has been before ?

for wifi, no.

Does it track you even at new locations
with wifis unknown to the device ?

for wifi, yes.

Without connection to get wifi location info ?

I would rather believe the tablet does not behave
in the way you suppose it to behave.

Sometimes a particular HW is present,
but not available for the user rather for business reasons,
being either deactivated or just not used.

very rarely.

in this case, there are two versions of the ipad, a wifi-only model and
one with cellular/gps.

It does not exclude what I said.

E.g. Xiaomi MI A1 does have the FM radio chip,
( one can listen the radio via the service menu )
but it is not mentioned in manual
and there is no builtin nor downloadable FM application
that would work.

that's only because the chipset they use already has fm.

Have I said otherwise ?

Have you noticed I did not ask you ?


--
Poutnik ( The Pilgrim, Der Wanderer )

A wise man guards words he says,
as they say about him more,
than he says about the subject.

On Saturday, March 31, 2018 at 2:34:12 AM UTC-4, Ragnusen Ultred wrote:
Am Fri, 30 Mar 2018 23:27:30 -0600, schrieb rbowman:

Basemaps for an area can be downloaded for local use
but I don't know about the SSID position information.

The last I checked this process was years ago, but what the process was, as
I recall, was you first get a free key from Google.

Then you use that key to query an online database of BSSID location
information that Google provides to all free of charge.

As a rudimentary security measure that I doubt Google Maps has to follow,
you have to give it TWO BSSIDs which must be in close proximity to each
other in the Google database, and a signal strength (which can be bogus).

Under those circumstances, as I recall, Google will give you the location.

But all that only works if you're already on the net, which is not possible
for a tablet that has no cellular capability and which is driving down the
road (unless it's fleetingly connecting to unsecured wide-open access
points).

Hence the question is how does Google /still/ know your location?

When you have it working without cellular, without GPS, how well does it
track? If it works just by knowing which wifi spots it sees, it would
seem to me it would be quite erratic in the typical urban setting.
For example, going down a highway, with GPS, if I make a left turn
it knows instantly. If it's just using which wifi it sees at the moment,
then it would not know that I turned for some decent interval and
I'd expect that it would instead show you continuing on the highway,
then maybe 1000 ft later, suddenly correct and have you instantly
jump from the highway to the side street. And by then you could be
onto a side street and it wouldn't know that either. Do you see that?

If not, then it still remains how it can now accurately where you are.
I can see using wifi spots for general location to an approximate area,
but not for showing an accurate route when there are quite a few possible
streets, roads, parking lots, etc that you could be on.

In article , Libor 'Poutnik' St?í?
wrote:

Does it track you even at new locations
with wifis unknown to the device ?

for wifi, yes.

Without connection to get wifi location info ?

yep. it only needs to see nearby wifi networks (not connect or log in)
and does a database lookup of the bssid(s) it sees. signal strength is
also part of it.

Am Fri, 30 Mar 2018 23:24:02 -0600, schrieb rbowman:

Short answer is the secured access points are broadcasting a SSID.

Thank you for trying to answer the question as an adult.

Yes, it's clear to all of us that every access point is broadcasting a
unique BSSID, whether it's secured or wide open, is broadcasting the BSSID
(which, for this thread, we can call an SSID even though, technically,
they're different in that the BSSID is supposed to be unique while the SSID
often is not unique).

And we all know that google *online* servers have this information, along
with the signal strength (as explained prior) and location of the phones
that reported the access point BSSID to Google.

Assuming you have a WiFi connection to any of them, the database can be
queried and the location of each SSID determined.

Ah. Do you see what you just said. Where is the WiFi connection when you're
just driving down the road.

That's the fundamental dilemma with any answer that requires a connection
to the Internet on a tablet that has no cellular data functionality.

You see the dilemma since you mention a connection to the Internet, which
isn't going to be possible in most cases of driving on the road.

So how does it work, if it doesn't connect to open unsecured wifi access
points?

Just walking down a city street you should be able to see a number of
access points even if you can't connect to them. That information is all
you need.

Yes. If you connect. But once you connect then nobody disputes that a
connection to the Internet will identify the location (by a variety of
means).

The problem here is there is no cellular data possible, and you're driving
along the road so you're not likely to be connecting to access points that
you don't even know - but certainly you can 'see' them.

So the question here is whether Google *stores* that BSSID location data
inside the offline map database that you download with Google Maps.

afaik, you still need a connection to Google.

But it seems to work WITHOUT a connection to google!

That's the technical dilemma and the reason for the question!

Many of the services like
routing are not done locally. The device sends the request off to a
server, not necessarily Google, and gets back JSON (usually) data which
it then can use to plot a line on the basemap.

Remember, we're talking about a tablet that has no cellular capability and
no GPS capability and we're driving on the road so we don't know anyone's
SSID or passphrase, and yet, Google Maps _still_ knows where you are.

How?

Am Sat, 31 Mar 2018 01:49:36 -0400, schrieb nospam:

it's done locally because a network query is far too slow, and that's
if it's available.

The question here is whether Google *stores* that BSSID:location data
inside the offline map database that you download with Google Maps.

Am Fri, 30 Mar 2018 23:27:30 -0600, schrieb rbowman:

Any access point that is broadcasting its SSID. I believe you still
need a connection to allow your device to query the database on
someone's server. Basemaps for an area can be downloaded for local use
but I don't know about the SSID position information.

What you bring up is the exact reason for the question.

Let's state the obvious first:
1. The tablet has no GPS and no cellular data is possible.
2. The tablet is in the car which is driving down the road.
3. That means there is no way to connect to an AP unless it's wide open.

*So how does the WiFi-only table know where it is when driving on a road?*

Certainly the tablet "sees" the many secured and unsecured WIFI AP BSSIDs.
The tablet also knows their signal strength (which approximates nearness).
Of that there is no doubt.

How does the tablet /still/ know where it is even when it has no connection
to any of the access points that it can clearly "see"?

That's the question.

Ragnusen Ultred wrote:

The problem here is there is no cellular data possible, and you're driving
along the road so you're not likely to be connecting to access points that
you don't even know - but certainly you can 'see' them.

Did it know where it was, at the time? Or maybe it stored the visible
access points and then pieced the location together after the fact, once
you got back home and connected back to your own wifi?

In article , Ragnusen Ultred
wrote:


The question here is

why you fail to comprehend the numerous explanations, and not just in
this thread either.

Am Sat, 31 Mar 2018 10:14:47 -0400, schrieb nospam:

How can GPS fix apply to a device with no GPS? The question is nonsensical.

nearly all of what he posts is nonsensical.

Sometimes, you actually get it.

I was pointing out to nospam you were being, as Carlos said, "nonsensical".

Your post, as always, didn't apply in the least to the thread topic.

Am Sat, 31 Mar 2018 15:41:28 +0200, schrieb Carlos E.R.:

How can GPS fix apply to a device with no GPS? The question is nonsensical.

Exactly.

Sometimes, you actually get it.

I was pointing out to nospam he was being, as you say, "nonsensical".

His post, as always, didn't apply in the least to the thread topic.

Am 31 Mar 2018 14:26:15 GMT, schrieb Frank Slootweg:

Why do you keep re-asking a question which already has been answered
several times (in this thread)? [1]

Frank,
Why I have to explain the /simplest/ of things to you is not only sad, but
it's a waste of time because you will /never/ add one iota of technical
value to /any/ thread.

But, to explain the obvious, I repeat the question because (a) it has been
unanswered, and (b) it's an attempt to keep the focus of the thread on
topic.

That you can't possibly comprehend a thread topic is obvious since you
/never/ ever once posted an on-topic response to /any/ thread.

So keeping the thread on topic is irrelevant to someone with your stellar
lack of comprehension.

Similarly, people like 'nospam', whom you're quite similar to, will say the
topic has been answered and yet, (a) it hasn't, and worse (b), they have
zero purposeful intent in any post.

To wit, has this question been answered, Frank, or not?

Q: Does Google Maps store the BSSID:location pair /inside/ the offline map
database ... or not?

HINT: To Frank and nospam, this is more than a yes:no answer, which nospam
just guesses at. If you say yes or no, we have to figure out how to prove
whether it's yes or no.

--
I realize this explanation is lost on the children nospam and Frank, but
the hope is that the adults on this newsgroup can comprehend.

In article , Ragnusen Ultred
wrote:


Looking down at the tablet on the passenger seat, I was shocked to see the
blue dot move, along where I was, but in fitful jumps. Huh?

Then I pulled over, and did a "route' back to the library, and lo and
behold, Google Maps, completely offline, showed that route. Huh?

perhaps you'd also be shocked that a lot of incredibly smart people
work at google, far smarter than you are.

On Fri, 30 Mar 2018 13:51:10 +0100, Bod wrote:

On 30/03/2018 13:10, Meanie wrote:
On 3/29/2018 7:55 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Thu, 29 Mar 2018 14:47:47 -0700, Ragnusen* Ultred
wrote:

Recently, I noticed that, on a WiFi-only tablet, the Google Map App was
"tracking" me while on the road, where the WiFi-only tablet
definitely does
not have a GPS chip nor does it have a cellular capability.
http://i.cubeupload.com/jOw0fO.gif

Since this was a surprise to me that a WiFi-only tablet could "route" on
top of an offline (aka "OK MAPS") google map while driving on the
road, I
was telling someone about it, who asked this question:

Q: Is Google using previously stored WiFi AP SSIDs in the offline
maps to
locate your position, or, is the tablet's Wi-Fi automatically
connecting to
open APs, and hence giving away the location by that method?


** It WILL have a gps in it. Over 99% of tablets today - and cell
phones - have GPS. I don't think Apple makes an I-Pad without GPS.


Then you might want to tell me where it is cause I can't find mine
within my WiFi only Apple iPad Air. In fact, I had to purchase a
separate GPS adapter in order to use mapping apps or use my phone as a
hotspot. Otherwise, there isn't any GPS in it.

Then you must have either a very old or a cheap phone.
My phone is nearly 4 years old and has GPS built in.

ALL cell phones made in the last decade, or more, have GPS built in.
'Tis the law, at least in the US. Whether it's useful to any
particular app, is another question.

Ragnusen Ultred wrote:
Am 31 Mar 2018 14:26:15 GMT, schrieb Frank Slootweg:

Why do you keep re-asking a question which already has been answered
several times (in this thread)? [1]

Frank,
Why I have to explain the /simplest/ of things to you is not only sad, but
it's a waste of time because you will /never/ add one iota of technical
value to /any/ thread.

Don't be an obnoxious pompous **** who is looking for - mostly
imaginary - faults in others, but concentrate on your own failings.

But, to explain the obvious, I repeat the question because (a) it has been
unanswered, and (b) it's an attempt to keep the focus of the thread on
topic.

But that's where you're wrong! As I said, the question *has* been
answered, several times. That you don't understand it or/and reject it,
doesn't mean it hasn't been answered.

[More PKB-to-the-max deleted.]

First deliver on news STFU.

On 03/31/2018 10:30 AM, wrote:
ALL cell phones made in the last decade, or more, have GPS built in.
'Tis the law, at least in the US. Whether it's useful to any
particular app, is another question.

https://www.tomsguide.com/us/FCC-Mob...ews-12775.html

https://www.engadget.com/2011/10/05/...-for-improved/

That's the theory but we're talking about a US government agency. iirc
ten years ago or so they tried to force the chipset makers to include
GPS capability. Being good capitalists the chip people quickly realized
that paying fines for non-compliance was cheaper than including the
functionality.

It's like NextGen 911, which is a source of amusement in our company.
There are a lot of mirrors and much smoke but no progress.

On Saturday, March 31, 2018 at 12:31:00 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Fri, 30 Mar 2018 13:51:10 +0100, Bod wrote:

On 30/03/2018 13:10, Meanie wrote:
On 3/29/2018 7:55 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Thu, 29 Mar 2018 14:47:47 -0700, RagnusenÂ* Ultred
wrote:

Recently, I noticed that, on a WiFi-only tablet, the Google Map App was
"tracking" me while on the road, where the WiFi-only tablet
definitely does
not have a GPS chip nor does it have a cellular capability.
http://i.cubeupload.com/jOw0fO.gif

Since this was a surprise to me that a WiFi-only tablet could "route" on
top of an offline (aka "OK MAPS") google map while driving on the
road, I
was telling someone about it, who asked this question:

Q: Is Google using previously stored WiFi AP SSIDs in the offline
maps to
locate your position, or, is the tablet's Wi-Fi automatically
connecting to
open APs, and hence giving away the location by that method?


Â*Â* It WILL have a gps in it. Over 99% of tablets today - and cell
phones - have GPS. I don't think Apple makes an I-Pad without GPS.


Then you might want to tell me where it is cause I can't find mine
within my WiFi only Apple iPad Air. In fact, I had to purchase a
separate GPS adapter in order to use mapping apps or use my phone as a
hotspot. Otherwise, there isn't any GPS in it.

Then you must have either a very old or a cheap phone.
My phone is nearly 4 years old and has GPS built in.

ALL cell phones made in the last decade, or more, have GPS built in.
'Tis the law, at least in the US. Whether it's useful to any
particular app, is another question.


The thread and question is about tablets. Do try to pay attention.

On Sat, 31 Mar 2018 12:11:32 -0600, rbowman
wrote:

On 03/31/2018 10:30 AM, wrote:
ALL cell phones made in the last decade, or more, have GPS built in.
'Tis the law, at least in the US. Whether it's useful to any
particular app, is another question.

https://www.tomsguide.com/us/FCC-Mob...ews-12775.html

https://www.engadget.com/2011/10/05/...-for-improved/

That's the theory but we're talking about a US government agency. iirc
ten years ago or so they tried to force the chipset makers to include
GPS capability. Being good capitalists the chip people quickly realized
that paying fines for non-compliance was cheaper than including the
functionality.'

IIRC, they can't even sell phones in the US without GPS.

It's like NextGen 911, which is a source of amusement in our company.
There are a lot of mirrors and much smoke but no progress.

On Sat, 31 Mar 2018 11:43:28 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Saturday, March 31, 2018 at 12:31:00 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Fri, 30 Mar 2018 13:51:10 +0100, Bod wrote:

On 30/03/2018 13:10, Meanie wrote:
On 3/29/2018 7:55 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Thu, 29 Mar 2018 14:47:47 -0700, Ragnusen* Ultred
wrote:

Recently, I noticed that, on a WiFi-only tablet, the Google Map App was
"tracking" me while on the road, where the WiFi-only tablet
definitely does
not have a GPS chip nor does it have a cellular capability.
http://i.cubeupload.com/jOw0fO.gif

Since this was a surprise to me that a WiFi-only tablet could "route" on
top of an offline (aka "OK MAPS") google map while driving on the
road, I
was telling someone about it, who asked this question:

Q: Is Google using previously stored WiFi AP SSIDs in the offline
maps to
locate your position, or, is the tablet's Wi-Fi automatically
connecting to
open APs, and hence giving away the location by that method?


** It WILL have a gps in it. Over 99% of tablets today - and cell
phones - have GPS. I don't think Apple makes an I-Pad without GPS.


Then you might want to tell me where it is cause I can't find mine
within my WiFi only Apple iPad Air. In fact, I had to purchase a
separate GPS adapter in order to use mapping apps or use my phone as a
hotspot. Otherwise, there isn't any GPS in it.

Then you must have either a very old or a cheap phone.
My phone is nearly 4 years old and has GPS built in.

ALL cell phones made in the last decade, or more, have GPS built in.
'Tis the law, at least in the US. Whether it's useful to any
particular app, is another question.


The thread and question is about tablets. Do try to pay attention.

Once again, Traitor shows just how stupid he really is. Read the post
directly above mine, moron. It's easy, you even kept it in your
asinine response. Your brain cell is really getting lonely Traitor.

trader_4 wrote:
On Friday, March 30, 2018 at 8:51:18 AM UTC-4, Bod wrote:
On 30/03/2018 13:10, Meanie wrote:
On 3/29/2018 7:55 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Thu, 29 Mar 2018 14:47:47 -0700, Ragnusen Ultred
wrote:

Recently, I noticed that, on a WiFi-only tablet, the Google Map App was
"tracking" me while on the road, where the WiFi-only tablet
definitely does
not have a GPS chip nor does it have a cellular capability.
http://i.cubeupload.com/jOw0fO.gif

Since this was a surprise to me that a WiFi-only tablet could "route" on
top of an offline (aka "OK MAPS") google map while driving on the
road, I
was telling someone about it, who asked this question:

Q: Is Google using previously stored WiFi AP SSIDs in the offline
maps to
locate your position, or, is the tablet's Wi-Fi automatically
connecting to
open APs, and hence giving away the location by that method?


It WILL have a gps in it. Over 99% of tablets today - and cell
phones - have GPS. I don't think Apple makes an I-Pad without GPS.


Then you might want to tell me where it is cause I can't find mine
within my WiFi only Apple iPad Air. In fact, I had to purchase a
separate GPS adapter in order to use mapping apps or use my phone as a
hotspot. Otherwise, there isn't any GPS in it.

Then you must have either a very old or a cheap phone.
My phone is nearly 4 years old and has GPS built in.

--
Bod

The discussion is about a TABLET, not phones. Apparently not all tablets
have GPS, the OP specifically said that he's sure his does not. If he
shared the make/model we could check.

My iPad has no GPS and I can turn Off GPS on android. Location still works.

Greg

trader_4 wrote:
On Friday, March 30, 2018 at 11:34:53 AM UTC-4, nospam wrote:
In article , Paul
Colquhoun wrote:

| Recently, I noticed that, on a WiFi-only tablet, the Google Map App was
| "tracking" me while on the road, where the WiFi-only tablet definitely does
| not have a GPS chip nor does it have a cellular capability.
| http://i.cubeupload.com/jOw0fO.gif

That screen shot is from an iPad. Notice the little arrow up in the top
right corner, next to the 18% battery indicator? That means GPS is
active.

nope. it means an app is using location services to obtain the user's
location, which can be done without a hardware gps (and even if there
is a hardware gps, it's not always used).

I don't think Apple have ever made an iPad without a GPS chip.

they did and still do.

wifi-only ipads do not have gps or cellular.

So, the question remains. Assuming the OP is correct and he has a tablet
that does not have GPS or cell service, how is it showing him where he is
on maps while traveling?

Might be a built database of IP locations. I'm not sure if it can
distinguish movement away from set location.

Greg

Clare Snyder wrote:
On Fri, 30 Mar 2018 21:37:36 +1100, Paul Colquhoun
wrote:

On Thu, 29 Mar 2018 14:47:47 -0700, Ragnusen Ultred wrote:
| Recently, I noticed that, on a WiFi-only tablet, the Google Map App was
| "tracking" me while on the road, where the WiFi-only tablet definitely does
| not have a GPS chip nor does it have a cellular capability.
| http://i.cubeupload.com/jOw0fO.gif


That screen shot is from an iPad. Notice the little arrow up in the top
right corner, next to the 18% battery indicator? That means GPS is
active.

I don't think Apple have ever made an iPad without a GPS chip.


I didn't thinkl so either, but upon checking they made a whole
crapload of them.

Basically anything without at least 3G data capability has NO GPS.

Imagine - all that expensive yuppy crap with no basic location service
other than triangulating from wifi??? When a GPS chip is less than $5
- on a board ready to connect to an arduino. Cost to apple must be
less than a buck.


| Since this was a surprise to me that a WiFi-only tablet could "route" on
| top of an offline (aka "OK MAPS") google map while driving on the road, I
| was telling someone about it, who asked this question:
|
| Q: Is Google using previously stored WiFi AP SSIDs in the offline maps to
| locate your position, or, is the tablet's Wi-Fi automatically connecting to
| open APs, and hence giving away the location by that method?

My one 3G tablet seems to have Superior WiFi sensitivity. Still trying to
fix screen.

Greg

Am Sat, 31 Mar 2018 09:21:14 +0200 (GMT+02:00), schrieb Libor Striz:

Are the Google Maps for iOS as well ?? That is news to me, I would
consider it as "Apple heresy".

The Google Maps app was on iOS long before Apple Maps even existed.

As you noted, the iOS platform has far less map app functionality than does
the Android platform (free offline routing-capable topographic maps being
one which hits me hard since I hike a lot), in the case of *road* maps,
while there is still always going to be far less app functionality on the
iOS platform than on Android, the huge major players are the same (e.g.,
Google, CoPilot, Waze, Maps.me, Google Earth) but almost all the major and
minor free online and offline no-registration map players simply don't
exist on iOS - they exist only on Android.

I just guess, either iOS has equivalent location service,
either GM for iOS is compiled not to rely on such a service.

I would have thought the Google Maps on iOS uses the same techniquest that
it uses on Android, which is to utiltize whatever it can from GPS (which in
this case, doesn't exist), and BSSIDs (if the WiFi is turned on), and any
Internet-available geolocation information (which doesn't exist in this
case unless the tablet is connecting fleetingly to wide-open unsecured
access points), and, potentially, an offline BSSID:location lookup *inside*
of the map database itself.

I suspect that the Google Maps app *is* making use of an offline
BSSID:location lookup *inside* of the map database itself, but I don't know
how to prove that just yet, and nobody here has provided any references
that back up that assumption anyway.

Am Sat, 31 Mar 2018 13:34:21 +0200, schrieb Libor 'Poutnik' Støí¾:

But map data and location service are very different things.

Hi Poutnik,
The map itself is different from the location, as you noted, but they are
interconnected because we are talking about the "OK MAPS" download
mechanism to obtain *offline* map data.

That offline map data may contain location data, such as the BSSID:location
pair for every access point that many (most?) Android phones (not mine!)
report to Google every minute of every day.

Hence, the location data is interrelated with the map data *if* Google
stores that location data *inside* the *offline* map data.

Nobody seems to know (and yet, nospam always alludes to being an omnipotent
genius but he can't tell you or he'd have to shoot you) if the
BSSID:location data is stored *inside* of the offline "OK MAPS" downloaded
map data.

In article , Ragnusen Ultred
wrote:

The Google Maps app was on iOS long before Apple Maps even existed.

false.

As you noted, the iOS platform has far less map app functionality than does
the Android platform

false

Am Sat, 31 Mar 2018 14:05:11 +0200, schrieb Libor 'Poutnik' Støí¾:

Android applications and I suppose iOS ones as well
do not determine location on their own,
but ask the OS what the location is.

Hi Poutnik,

That's correct, I don't think that's necessarily the only correct answer
since an app can maintain its own database of whatever it wants to maintain
(e.g., some apps track in a tunnel where they use predictive algorithms).

In the case of the Google Map app, we all know that Google maintains a huge
*online* database of BSSID:location pairs for all access points that have
been reported to it by most (not mine) Android phones.

Everyone on this thread already knows that it's *possible* that Google
simply downloads that BSSID:SSID:location:dBM data to the portion of map
that is downloaded for offline use with the "OK MAPS" mechanism.

The main question is how to prove whether that BSSID:location information
is actually stored inside the *offline* Google Maps database which is
downloaded by the "OK MAPS" mechanism.

Does it track you only within ranges of supposed Wifis ?

I need to run tests, but the preliminary answer is "yes".
It seemed to work best in populated areas moreso than in remote areas.

If that proves out, that would be a hint that Google Maps is using a
previously stored local database of BSSID:location information, which, by
the way, may be the main reason that Google offline maps *expire* after a
month (actually 29 or 30 days, depending on the platform).

Does it even track you without any wifi in the range ?

Preliminary results are that "houses" need to be nearby.

Whether or not that means access points is unknown, but what else can it be
using since there is no GPS possible nor is there cellular data possible?

I think we all suspect that Google maps is downloading to the "OK MAPS"
localized database the access point information that most Android phones
(not mine) hand it every day, but the question is how to prove that is the
case.

In case of the former,

Does it track you only at known locations,
where the device has been before ?

Ah. This is an interesting question, where the tracking was certainly done
in an area that I frequent, since it was "in town", as I was leaving the
library (where I had been connected prior).

The Google Map app does ask if it can get location information even when
the user is not using the app, so, there "may" be something in your
question for us to track down further.

Thanks for thinking of that, which nobody else had mentioned (AFAIR).

Does it track you even at new locations
with wifis unknown to the device ?

That is a good question. I will have to use the tablet in a location where
it has never been before to ascertain that answer.

But, I think we all suspect it simply downloads the BSSID:location
information, which is the same information I queried a long time ago to
prove we could track someone's cellphone from our desktops at home.

You have to have a "key" which Google provides for free, and then you give
Google *two* SSIDs (the reason for two, as I recall, is a rudimentary
security mechanism), and then you give it a bogus signal strength, and if
things match up for Google's liking, it hands back the location.

Of course, Google's own map app is probably not restricted to two SSIDs
even as they would want as many as possible for their "triangulation" to
work reasonably accurately.

It seems to me not probable
to have pre-downloaded all wifi location database.
Perhaps, it may predownload the data for nearby area only.

That's is the conundrum.

How does the Google Map app manage to track you when the tablet has no GPS,
no cellular, and the WiFi doesn't have the credentials to connect to
anything but an access point which is wide open and just happens to be on
the road, but you'd pass by that access point fleetingly so there isn't
much time to connect to the net.

Most of us already suspect the "OK MAPS" mechanism downloads this
BSSID:location information - but the question is how to prove that is the
case.

I would rather believe the tablet does not behave
in the way you suppose it to behave.

That may very well be the case.
And I appreciate that sentiment of yours, which is reasonable.

I think we all know of a good mechanism that might be what it uses; we just
need to figure out how to prove that is the case.

Sometimes a particular HW is present,
but not available for the user rather for business reasons,
being either deactivated or just not used.

This might be the case, but I doubt it (but it's always a possibility).

It is cheaper to produce 1 version
and selectively disable optional features.

Yup. Apple does this all the time, e.g., with their modems where they have
an iOS device with a fast modem and another with a slow modem, so they
permanently slow down the fast modem just so that the user won't see the
speed difference in the two devices.

But this would be permanent, and hence not useful to the app.

Or, selectively disable it just for user applications,
but not for the OS.

This might be the case. I don't see any evidence of this though, in this
case.

E.g. Xiaomi MI A1 does have the FM radio chip,
( one can listen the radio via the service menu )
but it is not mentioned in manual
and there is no builtin nor downloadable FM application
that would work.

This is an interesting example. So it might be the case here, but I doubt
it since Occam's Razor tells us that the simplest solution is the most
obvious one that we all know already, but which we don't yet know how to
prove it's the case.

Q: How can we prove that the Google App "OK MAPS" mechanism downloads the
BSSID:location information of local access points?

Am Sat, 31 Mar 2018 09:18:53 +0100, schrieb Andy Burns:

iBeacons?

Thanks Andy Burns for being purposefully helpful in that you bring up
something that nobody mentioned which might be what the Google Map app uses
to determine location on a tablet that has no GPS and no cellular
capabilities.

I hadn't thought of iBeacons, so I looked them up.
http://www.ibeacon.com/what-is-ibeacon-a-guide-to-beacons/

The iBeacon method (mostly used for advertising purposes, it seems) uses
Bluetooth (low energy), which, we noted in our initial tests, didn't seem
to make a difference - but - they were only quick and preliminary tests of
bluetooth being turned on or off.

Also, the iBeacon standard doesn't include specific location information,
but it does allow each iBeacon to have a unique identifier.

Here is a description of the "typical" use model in that reference:
"The typical scenario looks like this. A consumer carrying a smartphone
walks into a store. Apps installed on a consumer's smartphone listen for
iBeacons. When an app hears an iBeacon, it communicates the relevant data
(UUID, Major, Minor, Tx) to its server, which then triggers an action. This
could be something as simple as a push message ["Welcome to Target! Check
out Doritos on Aisle 3!"], and could include other things like targeted
advertisements, special offers, and helpful reminders ["You're out of
Milk!"]. Other potential applications include mobile payments and shopper
analytics and implementation outside of retail, at airports, concert
venues, theme parks, and more. The potential is limitless."

Am Sat, 31 Mar 2018 11:33:46 -0400, schrieb nospam:

perhaps you'd also be shocked that a lot of incredibly smart people
work at google, far smarter than you are.

You, nospam, always prove in every post that...
1. You lack technical competency to simply answer the question,
2. Hence, you merely guess & worse, you play endless silly semantic games,
3. All done with nary a single helpful well intentioned bone in your body.

Ragnusen Ultred wrote:

the iBeacon standard doesn't include specific location information

I know almost nothing about iBeacons, other than reading that iPads can
use them for "micro-location"

On Sunday, April 1, 2018 at 11:37:30 AM UTC-4, Ragnusen Ultred wrote:
Am Sat, 31 Mar 2018 14:05:11 +0200, schrieb Libor 'Poutnik' StÅ™Ã*ľ:

Android applications and I suppose iOS ones as well
do not determine location on their own,
but ask the OS what the location is.

Hi Poutnik,

That's correct,


Are you sure that's correct for all apps, all cases? I can certainly
see it being the case when GPS is there, for example. Or for cell
triangulation methods. But is anyone sure that it extends to more
exotic methods, eg identifying where you are by the wifi spots that
are nearby?




I don't think that's necessarily the only correct answer
since an app can maintain its own database of whatever it wants to maintain
(e.g., some apps track in a tunnel where they use predictive algorithms).


Then you really mean that you're questioning what he posted, not agreeing with it, because he said all apps get the location from the OS.

In article , Andy Burns
wrote:

the iBeacon standard doesn't include specific location information

I know almost nothing about iBeacons, other than reading that iPads can
use them for "micro-location"

they're not just for ipads, but any bluetooth le capable device,
including iphones and many (but not all) android devices.

ibeacons are mainly used to provide location information inside a
building, often used in museums, for self-directed guides or just to
find out more about whatever the visitor is looking at:

https://www.guggenheim.org/news/gugg...re-to-highligh
t-artworks-near-users
Utilizing iBeacon technology to automatically present visitors with
audio, video, and text related to the artworks and building features
nearest to them, Guggenheim Near Me offers a site-specific experience
for visitors as they move through the museum.

they're also used at airports, sports arenas, stores and many other
places.