FromTheRafters used his keyboard to write :
After serious thinking Oren wrote :
On Wed, 14 Dec 2016 20:27:01 -0500, FromTheRafters
wrote:

New threads usually don't have a "References: " header, but your's does.
It looks like you started a subthread and changed the subject line.

Exactly. In fact they never have a "Reference" (new threads). Derby
was right. Clare did a piggy-back instead of starting a "new" thread
subject.

Yes, I purposefully understated the fact by using 'usually'. I suppose one
could insert such a header field in an actual new thread OP without it being
rejected by the injecting server, and some people would do just that to prove
someone else's statement wrong.

I might test that just to see if it works.

Nope, my MesNews client says that "References" header field is
reserved. Still, that doesn't mean that it cannot be done, only that I
cannot do it with MesNews.

On Wednesday, December 14, 2016 at 8:54:47 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On 14 Dec 2016 17:48:54 GMT, notbob wrote:

On 2016-12-14, Stormin' Norman wrote:

Clare's message does not appear in the LED replacement tube thread.

Yeah, it does.


1 D 25:[Stormin' Nor] Review: LED replacements for T8
Fluorescent Tubes
- D-9999 45:[DerbyDad03 ]
3 D 27:[clare@snyder] Manual tire changers


nb
Well, not sure how it happened. I had my Agent application open and
clicked on "post" "New Usenet Message" and filled in the "subject"
line as "manual tire changers" and went from there - SO SORRY if
somehow I offended the sensative adults in the group

AFAIK, no one was offended.

When I first saw your post in the LED thread, there was nothing else for
me to do except ask why you posted your comments in the LED thread. I had
no way of knowing what process you followed, all I knew was that your comments
were unrelated to the OP.

I did find it interesting how strongly you seem to object to what we
were seeing.

"The thread is very plainly titled "manual tire changers" _ don't
know what you are reading - or who's glasses you have on - - - "

and

"Where in the thread entitled "manual tire changers" do you find
ANYTHING about LED tubes???? I STARTED this damned thread."

No one jumped on you, we simply stated the facts based on what we were
actually seeing. On the other hand, you starting yelling at us.

Interesting, indeed.

On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 10:30:36 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:




"Where in the thread entitled "manual tire changers" do you find
ANYTHING about LED tubes???? I STARTED this damned thread."

Actually, you did not start that thread, I did....... ;-)



No one jumped on you, we simply stated the facts based on what we were
actually seeing. On the other hand, you starting yelling at us.

Interesting, indeed.


There are several of us here, who, when it comes to being critical,
are living in glass houses. I for one could be much less critical.

Of course, I could use the Trump defense and say I only attack after
being attacked, but Trump is full of **** and so is that excuse.

On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 10:30:36 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Wednesday, December 14, 2016 at 8:54:47 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On 14 Dec 2016 17:48:54 GMT, notbob wrote:

On 2016-12-14, Stormin' Norman wrote:

Clare's message does not appear in the LED replacement tube thread.

Yeah, it does.


1 D 25:[Stormin' Nor] Review: LED replacements for T8
Fluorescent Tubes
- D-9999 45:[DerbyDad03 ]
3 D 27:[clare@snyder] Manual tire changers


nb
Well, not sure how it happened. I had my Agent application open and
clicked on "post" "New Usenet Message" and filled in the "subject"
line as "manual tire changers" and went from there - SO SORRY if
somehow I offended the sensative adults in the group

AFAIK, no one was offended.

When I first saw your post in the LED thread, there was nothing else for
me to do except ask why you posted your comments in the LED thread. I had
no way of knowing what process you followed, all I knew was that your comments
were unrelated to the OP.

I did find it interesting how strongly you seem to object to what we
were seeing.

"The thread is very plainly titled "manual tire changers" _ don't
know what you are reading - or who's glasses you have on - - - "

and

"Where in the thread entitled "manual tire changers" do you find
ANYTHING about LED tubes???? I STARTED this damned thread."

No one jumped on you, we simply stated the facts based on what we were
actually seeing. On the other hand, you starting yelling at us.

Interesting, indeed.
Like I said - Sorry. In Agent it all looks normal, so I had no Idea I
had screwed up. I must have had something highlighted somewhere in
Agent when I started the new thread. I had not even been following the
LED TUBE thread

On Thursday, December 15, 2016 at 9:49:01 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 10:30:36 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Wednesday, December 14, 2016 at 8:54:47 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On 14 Dec 2016 17:48:54 GMT, notbob wrote:

On 2016-12-14, Stormin' Norman wrote:

Clare's message does not appear in the LED replacement tube thread.

Yeah, it does.


1 D 25:[Stormin' Nor] Review: LED replacements for T8
Fluorescent Tubes
- D-9999 45:[DerbyDad03 ]
3 D 27:[clare@snyder] Manual tire changers


nb
Well, not sure how it happened. I had my Agent application open and
clicked on "post" "New Usenet Message" and filled in the "subject"
line as "manual tire changers" and went from there - SO SORRY if
somehow I offended the sensative adults in the group

AFAIK, no one was offended.

When I first saw your post in the LED thread, there was nothing else for
me to do except ask why you posted your comments in the LED thread. I had
no way of knowing what process you followed, all I knew was that your comments
were unrelated to the OP.

I did find it interesting how strongly you seem to object to what we
were seeing.

"The thread is very plainly titled "manual tire changers" _ don't
know what you are reading - or who's glasses you have on - - - "

and

"Where in the thread entitled "manual tire changers" do you find
ANYTHING about LED tubes???? I STARTED this damned thread."

No one jumped on you, we simply stated the facts based on what we were
actually seeing. On the other hand, you starting yelling at us.

Interesting, indeed.
Like I said - Sorry. In Agent it all looks normal, so I had no Idea I
had screwed up. I must have had something highlighted somewhere in
Agent when I started the new thread. I had not even been following the
LED TUBE thread

It is a curiosity, that's for sure. No biggy.

You should check out the LED tube thread. Stormin and I have just started replacing some
of our ballast-required flourescent tubes with direct wire LED tubes. Same fixture, you just
cut the ballast out of the circuit and wire 120 V directly to the tombstones.

So far, we like them.

On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 19:45:12 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Thursday, December 15, 2016 at 9:49:01 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 10:30:36 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Wednesday, December 14, 2016 at 8:54:47 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On 14 Dec 2016 17:48:54 GMT, notbob wrote:

On 2016-12-14, Stormin' Norman wrote:

Clare's message does not appear in the LED replacement tube thread.

Yeah, it does.


1 D 25:[Stormin' Nor] Review: LED replacements for T8
Fluorescent Tubes
- D-9999 45:[DerbyDad03 ]
3 D 27:[clare@snyder] Manual tire changers


nb
Well, not sure how it happened. I had my Agent application open and
clicked on "post" "New Usenet Message" and filled in the "subject"
line as "manual tire changers" and went from there - SO SORRY if
somehow I offended the sensative adults in the group

AFAIK, no one was offended.

When I first saw your post in the LED thread, there was nothing else for
me to do except ask why you posted your comments in the LED thread. I had
no way of knowing what process you followed, all I knew was that your comments
were unrelated to the OP.

I did find it interesting how strongly you seem to object to what we
were seeing.

"The thread is very plainly titled "manual tire changers" _ don't
know what you are reading - or who's glasses you have on - - - "

and

"Where in the thread entitled "manual tire changers" do you find
ANYTHING about LED tubes???? I STARTED this damned thread."

No one jumped on you, we simply stated the facts based on what we were
actually seeing. On the other hand, you starting yelling at us.

Interesting, indeed.
Like I said - Sorry. In Agent it all looks normal, so I had no Idea I
had screwed up. I must have had something highlighted somewhere in
Agent when I started the new thread. I had not even been following the
LED TUBE thread

It is a curiosity, that's for sure. No biggy.

You should check out the LED tube thread. Stormin and I have just started replacing some
of our ballast-required flourescent tubes with direct wire LED tubes. Same fixture, you just
cut the ballast out of the circuit and wire 120 V directly to the tombstones.

So far, we like them.
One minor problem up here. No electrical inspector will EVER pass
them if he sees them - they are not CSA approved, and the fixture
isn't any more either when you re-wire it. The tombstones are not
rated for the 120 volts either. Would you get caught? Mabee, mabee not
- but there are direct fits available that ARE CSA approved and fully
legal, as well as purpose designed LED fixtures - but they do cost a
bit more.

What are you paying for the tubes? just for interest.

In article ,
says...


One minor problem up here. No electrical inspector will EVER pass
them if he sees them - they are not CSA approved, and the fixture
isn't any more either when you re-wire it. The tombstones are not
rated for the 120 volts either. Would you get caught? Mabee, mabee not
- but there are direct fits available that ARE CSA approved and fully
legal, as well as purpose designed LED fixtures - but they do cost a
bit more.

What are you paying for the tubes? just for interest.

I checked some tombstones that I pulled out of some of the about $ 10
shop lights. They are rated for 800 volts and UL listed.

Looks to me like the tombstones should be rated for 120 or more volts as
the lamps are hooked directly to the AC line through a ballast that does
not cut the voltage to a much lowe voltage.

On Thursday, December 15, 2016 at 11:42:03 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 19:45:12 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Thursday, December 15, 2016 at 9:49:01 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 10:30:36 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Wednesday, December 14, 2016 at 8:54:47 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On 14 Dec 2016 17:48:54 GMT, notbob wrote:

On 2016-12-14, Stormin' Norman wrote:

Clare's message does not appear in the LED replacement tube thread.

Yeah, it does.


1 D 25:[Stormin' Nor] Review: LED replacements for T8
Fluorescent Tubes
- D-9999 45:[DerbyDad03 ]
3 D 27:[clare@snyder] Manual tire changers


nb
Well, not sure how it happened. I had my Agent application open and
clicked on "post" "New Usenet Message" and filled in the "subject"
line as "manual tire changers" and went from there - SO SORRY if
somehow I offended the sensative adults in the group

AFAIK, no one was offended.

When I first saw your post in the LED thread, there was nothing else for
me to do except ask why you posted your comments in the LED thread. I had
no way of knowing what process you followed, all I knew was that your comments
were unrelated to the OP.

I did find it interesting how strongly you seem to object to what we
were seeing.

"The thread is very plainly titled "manual tire changers" _ don't
know what you are reading - or who's glasses you have on - - - "

and

"Where in the thread entitled "manual tire changers" do you find
ANYTHING about LED tubes???? I STARTED this damned thread."

No one jumped on you, we simply stated the facts based on what we were
actually seeing. On the other hand, you starting yelling at us.

Interesting, indeed.
Like I said - Sorry. In Agent it all looks normal, so I had no Idea I
had screwed up. I must have had something highlighted somewhere in
Agent when I started the new thread. I had not even been following the
LED TUBE thread

It is a curiosity, that's for sure. No biggy.

You should check out the LED tube thread. Stormin and I have just started replacing some
of our ballast-required flourescent tubes with direct wire LED tubes. Same fixture, you just
cut the ballast out of the circuit and wire 120 V directly to the tombstones.

So far, we like them.
One minor problem up here. No electrical inspector will EVER pass
them if he sees them - they are not CSA approved, and the fixture
isn't any more either when you re-wire it. The tombstones are not
rated for the 120 volts either. Would you get caught? Mabee, mabee not
- but there are direct fits available that ARE CSA approved and fully
legal, as well as purpose designed LED fixtures - but they do cost a
bit more.

What are you paying for the tubes? just for interest.

First, I'm curious about this thread thing.

I assume that if you are asking about prices, then you have not seen the
first 2 posts from Stormin' and I regarding the LED tubes that we purchased,
correct?

I assume that you are only seeing the responses since you started the
"Manual tire changers" thread/sub-thread/alternate-universe-thread. ;-)
For some of us, your topic appears as the 3rd post in the LED tube thread
and all the responses just follow in line from there.

I'm really curious as to what you would see if you looked at the thread
entitled "Review: LED replacements for T8 Fluorescent Tubes". Would
you mind checking that out? I wonder if all you see is the first 2
posts.

In any case, here is what Stormin' bought:

http://amzn.to/2h5hwDj

They are apparently "dual-end powered" tubes where the hot is wired to
a tombstone on one of the fixture and the neutral is wired to the
tombstone at the other.

I bought these:

http://tinyurl.com/EarthLED-Tube

These are single end powered so they are wired with the hot and neutral
on a single tombstone with the other end becoming nothing more than a
tube holder.

I paid $12.99 per tube since I bought small quantities. Volume discounts are
available. Similar tubes are $20 at the home centers.

As far as passing an electrical inspection that's a good point. EarthLED
is closed right now, but I'm going to call them later and see what they
say about voiding the UL et al listings.

"The tombstones are not rated for the 120 volts either."

That's an interesting question. I used the tombstones that came with my
fixture. They are non-shunted so they work with the single end tubes.
However, if I had shunted tombstones, I could buy non-shunted tombstones
from EarthLED which are not only UL listed, but also rated for 600V.

https://www.earthled.com/products/th...ersions-4-pack

Now, that doesn't mean the tombstones in *my* fixture are rated for 600V,
but the EarthLED website says:

"Retrofitting a T8 (1 in.) Tube? Be sure to purchase One non-shunted tombstone/lampholder for each tube light. ("Purchase Here" link included)

Have a T12 (1.5 in.) Tube? You are all set! No tombstone change required."

If there was any question as to whether existing tombstones are rated for
120V, I would assume they would mention that and suggest that you buy more
products from them. Instead, they say "No tombstone change required." I
will ask them that question also.

On Fri, 16 Dec 2016 06:39:57 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Thursday, December 15, 2016 at 11:42:03 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 19:45:12 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Thursday, December 15, 2016 at 9:49:01 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 10:30:36 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Wednesday, December 14, 2016 at 8:54:47 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On 14 Dec 2016 17:48:54 GMT, notbob wrote:

On 2016-12-14, Stormin' Norman wrote:

Clare's message does not appear in the LED replacement tube thread.

Yeah, it does.


1 D 25:[Stormin' Nor] Review: LED replacements for T8
Fluorescent Tubes
- D-9999 45:[DerbyDad03 ]
3 D 27:[clare@snyder] Manual tire changers


nb
Well, not sure how it happened. I had my Agent application open and
clicked on "post" "New Usenet Message" and filled in the "subject"
line as "manual tire changers" and went from there - SO SORRY if
somehow I offended the sensative adults in the group

AFAIK, no one was offended.

When I first saw your post in the LED thread, there was nothing else for
me to do except ask why you posted your comments in the LED thread. I had
no way of knowing what process you followed, all I knew was that your comments
were unrelated to the OP.

I did find it interesting how strongly you seem to object to what we
were seeing.

"The thread is very plainly titled "manual tire changers" _ don't
know what you are reading - or who's glasses you have on - - - "

and

"Where in the thread entitled "manual tire changers" do you find
ANYTHING about LED tubes???? I STARTED this damned thread."

No one jumped on you, we simply stated the facts based on what we were
actually seeing. On the other hand, you starting yelling at us.

Interesting, indeed.
Like I said - Sorry. In Agent it all looks normal, so I had no Idea I
had screwed up. I must have had something highlighted somewhere in
Agent when I started the new thread. I had not even been following the
LED TUBE thread

It is a curiosity, that's for sure. No biggy.

You should check out the LED tube thread. Stormin and I have just started replacing some
of our ballast-required flourescent tubes with direct wire LED tubes. Same fixture, you just
cut the ballast out of the circuit and wire 120 V directly to the tombstones.

So far, we like them.
One minor problem up here. No electrical inspector will EVER pass
them if he sees them - they are not CSA approved, and the fixture
isn't any more either when you re-wire it. The tombstones are not
rated for the 120 volts either. Would you get caught? Mabee, mabee not
- but there are direct fits available that ARE CSA approved and fully
legal, as well as purpose designed LED fixtures - but they do cost a
bit more.

What are you paying for the tubes? just for interest.

First, I'm curious about this thread thing.

I assume that if you are asking about prices, then you have not seen the
first 2 posts from Stormin' and I regarding the LED tubes that we purchased,
correct?

I assume that you are only seeing the responses since you started the
"Manual tire changers" thread/sub-thread/alternate-universe-thread. ;-)
For some of us, your topic appears as the 3rd post in the LED tube thread
and all the responses just follow in line from there.

I'm really curious as to what you would see if you looked at the thread
entitled "Review: LED replacements for T8 Fluorescent Tubes". Would
you mind checking that out? I wonder if all you see is the first 2
posts.

In any case, here is what Stormin' bought:

http://amzn.to/2h5hwDj

They are apparently "dual-end powered" tubes where the hot is wired to
a tombstone on one of the fixture and the neutral is wired to the
tombstone at the other.

I bought these:

http://tinyurl.com/EarthLED-Tube

These are single end powered so they are wired with the hot and neutral
on a single tombstone with the other end becoming nothing more than a
tube holder.

I paid $12.99 per tube since I bought small quantities. Volume discounts are
available. Similar tubes are $20 at the home centers.

As far as passing an electrical inspection that's a good point. EarthLED
is closed right now, but I'm going to call them later and see what they
say about voiding the UL et al listings.

"The tombstones are not rated for the 120 volts either."

That's an interesting question. I used the tombstones that came with my
fixture. They are non-shunted so they work with the single end tubes.
However, if I had shunted tombstones, I could buy non-shunted tombstones
from EarthLED which are not only UL listed, but also rated for 600V.

https://www.earthled.com/products/th...ersions-4-pack

Now, that doesn't mean the tombstones in *my* fixture are rated for 600V,
but the EarthLED website says:

"Retrofitting a T8 (1 in.) Tube? Be sure to purchase One non-shunted tombstone/lampholder for each tube light. ("Purchase Here" link included)

Have a T12 (1.5 in.) Tube? You are all set! No tombstone change required."

If there was any question as to whether existing tombstones are rated for
120V, I would assume they would mention that and suggest that you buy more
products from them. Instead, they say "No tombstone change required." I
will ask them that question also.

I too am curious about Ralph's comments, especially the code
restrictions. Am I mistaken or is he in Canada.

The tubes I ordered came with two, self-adhesive labels to be placed
prominently on each fixture to advise the fixtures have been converted
to LED.

As an aside, I noticed Costco is selling a two pack of FEIT brand LED
replacement tubes for about $18. I think they were 4100k and 1800
lumens.

On Friday, December 16, 2016 at 10:02:26 AM UTC-5, Stormin' Norman wrote:
On Fri, 16 Dec 2016 06:39:57 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Thursday, December 15, 2016 at 11:42:03 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 19:45:12 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Thursday, December 15, 2016 at 9:49:01 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 10:30:36 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Wednesday, December 14, 2016 at 8:54:47 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On 14 Dec 2016 17:48:54 GMT, notbob wrote:

On 2016-12-14, Stormin' Norman wrote:

Clare's message does not appear in the LED replacement tube thread.

Yeah, it does.


1 D 25:[Stormin' Nor] Review: LED replacements for T8
Fluorescent Tubes
- D-9999 45:[DerbyDad03 ]
3 D 27:[clare@snyder] Manual tire changers


nb
Well, not sure how it happened. I had my Agent application open and
clicked on "post" "New Usenet Message" and filled in the "subject"
line as "manual tire changers" and went from there - SO SORRY if
somehow I offended the sensative adults in the group

AFAIK, no one was offended.

When I first saw your post in the LED thread, there was nothing else for
me to do except ask why you posted your comments in the LED thread. I had
no way of knowing what process you followed, all I knew was that your comments
were unrelated to the OP.

I did find it interesting how strongly you seem to object to what we
were seeing.

"The thread is very plainly titled "manual tire changers" _ don't
know what you are reading - or who's glasses you have on - - - "

and

"Where in the thread entitled "manual tire changers" do you find
ANYTHING about LED tubes???? I STARTED this damned thread."

No one jumped on you, we simply stated the facts based on what we were
actually seeing. On the other hand, you starting yelling at us.

Interesting, indeed.
Like I said - Sorry. In Agent it all looks normal, so I had no Idea I
had screwed up. I must have had something highlighted somewhere in
Agent when I started the new thread. I had not even been following the
LED TUBE thread

It is a curiosity, that's for sure. No biggy.

You should check out the LED tube thread. Stormin and I have just started replacing some
of our ballast-required flourescent tubes with direct wire LED tubes. Same fixture, you just
cut the ballast out of the circuit and wire 120 V directly to the tombstones.

So far, we like them.
One minor problem up here. No electrical inspector will EVER pass
them if he sees them - they are not CSA approved, and the fixture
isn't any more either when you re-wire it. The tombstones are not
rated for the 120 volts either. Would you get caught? Mabee, mabee not
- but there are direct fits available that ARE CSA approved and fully
legal, as well as purpose designed LED fixtures - but they do cost a
bit more.

What are you paying for the tubes? just for interest.

First, I'm curious about this thread thing.

I assume that if you are asking about prices, then you have not seen the
first 2 posts from Stormin' and I regarding the LED tubes that we purchased,
correct?

I assume that you are only seeing the responses since you started the
"Manual tire changers" thread/sub-thread/alternate-universe-thread. ;-)
For some of us, your topic appears as the 3rd post in the LED tube thread
and all the responses just follow in line from there.

I'm really curious as to what you would see if you looked at the thread
entitled "Review: LED replacements for T8 Fluorescent Tubes". Would
you mind checking that out? I wonder if all you see is the first 2
posts.

In any case, here is what Stormin' bought:

http://amzn.to/2h5hwDj

They are apparently "dual-end powered" tubes where the hot is wired to
a tombstone on one of the fixture and the neutral is wired to the
tombstone at the other.

I bought these:

http://tinyurl.com/EarthLED-Tube

These are single end powered so they are wired with the hot and neutral
on a single tombstone with the other end becoming nothing more than a
tube holder.

I paid $12.99 per tube since I bought small quantities. Volume discounts are
available. Similar tubes are $20 at the home centers.

As far as passing an electrical inspection that's a good point. EarthLED
is closed right now, but I'm going to call them later and see what they
say about voiding the UL et al listings.

"The tombstones are not rated for the 120 volts either."

That's an interesting question. I used the tombstones that came with my
fixture. They are non-shunted so they work with the single end tubes.
However, if I had shunted tombstones, I could buy non-shunted tombstones
from EarthLED which are not only UL listed, but also rated for 600V.

https://www.earthled.com/products/th...ersions-4-pack

Now, that doesn't mean the tombstones in *my* fixture are rated for 600V,
but the EarthLED website says:

"Retrofitting a T8 (1 in.) Tube? Be sure to purchase One non-shunted tombstone/lampholder for each tube light. ("Purchase Here" link included)

Have a T12 (1.5 in.) Tube? You are all set! No tombstone change required."

If there was any question as to whether existing tombstones are rated for
120V, I would assume they would mention that and suggest that you buy more
products from them. Instead, they say "No tombstone change required." I
will ask them that question also.

I too am curious about Ralph's comments, especially the code
restrictions. Am I mistaken or is he in Canada.


Clare is in Canada. He is the one that mention possible problems with
the inspectors. I don't know where Ralph lives but was the one that
mentioned the voltage rating on the tombstones he pulled out.

The tubes I ordered came with two, self-adhesive labels to be placed
prominently on each fixture to advise the fixtures have been converted
to LED.

As an aside, I noticed Costco is selling a two pack of FEIT brand LED
replacement tubes for about $18. I think they were 4100k and 1800
lumens.

HD has some 1800 lumen tubes also. I think they might be to dim.

On Friday, December 16, 2016 at 10:02:26 AM UTC-5, Stormin' Norman wrote:
On Fri, 16 Dec 2016 06:39:57 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Thursday, December 15, 2016 at 11:42:03 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 19:45:12 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Thursday, December 15, 2016 at 9:49:01 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 10:30:36 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Wednesday, December 14, 2016 at 8:54:47 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On 14 Dec 2016 17:48:54 GMT, notbob wrote:

On 2016-12-14, Stormin' Norman wrote:

Clare's message does not appear in the LED replacement tube thread.

Yeah, it does.


1 D 25:[Stormin' Nor] Review: LED replacements for T8
Fluorescent Tubes
- D-9999 45:[DerbyDad03 ]
3 D 27:[clare@snyder] Manual tire changers


nb
Well, not sure how it happened. I had my Agent application open and
clicked on "post" "New Usenet Message" and filled in the "subject"
line as "manual tire changers" and went from there - SO SORRY if
somehow I offended the sensative adults in the group

AFAIK, no one was offended.

When I first saw your post in the LED thread, there was nothing else for
me to do except ask why you posted your comments in the LED thread. I had
no way of knowing what process you followed, all I knew was that your comments
were unrelated to the OP.

I did find it interesting how strongly you seem to object to what we
were seeing.

"The thread is very plainly titled "manual tire changers" _ don't
know what you are reading - or who's glasses you have on - - - "

and

"Where in the thread entitled "manual tire changers" do you find
ANYTHING about LED tubes???? I STARTED this damned thread."

No one jumped on you, we simply stated the facts based on what we were
actually seeing. On the other hand, you starting yelling at us.

Interesting, indeed.
Like I said - Sorry. In Agent it all looks normal, so I had no Idea I
had screwed up. I must have had something highlighted somewhere in
Agent when I started the new thread. I had not even been following the
LED TUBE thread

It is a curiosity, that's for sure. No biggy.

You should check out the LED tube thread. Stormin and I have just started replacing some
of our ballast-required flourescent tubes with direct wire LED tubes. Same fixture, you just
cut the ballast out of the circuit and wire 120 V directly to the tombstones.

So far, we like them.
One minor problem up here. No electrical inspector will EVER pass
them if he sees them - they are not CSA approved, and the fixture
isn't any more either when you re-wire it. The tombstones are not
rated for the 120 volts either. Would you get caught? Mabee, mabee not
- but there are direct fits available that ARE CSA approved and fully
legal, as well as purpose designed LED fixtures - but they do cost a
bit more.

What are you paying for the tubes? just for interest.

First, I'm curious about this thread thing.

I assume that if you are asking about prices, then you have not seen the
first 2 posts from Stormin' and I regarding the LED tubes that we purchased,
correct?

I assume that you are only seeing the responses since you started the
"Manual tire changers" thread/sub-thread/alternate-universe-thread. ;-)
For some of us, your topic appears as the 3rd post in the LED tube thread
and all the responses just follow in line from there.

I'm really curious as to what you would see if you looked at the thread
entitled "Review: LED replacements for T8 Fluorescent Tubes". Would
you mind checking that out? I wonder if all you see is the first 2
posts.

In any case, here is what Stormin' bought:

http://amzn.to/2h5hwDj

They are apparently "dual-end powered" tubes where the hot is wired to
a tombstone on one of the fixture and the neutral is wired to the
tombstone at the other.

I bought these:

http://tinyurl.com/EarthLED-Tube

These are single end powered so they are wired with the hot and neutral
on a single tombstone with the other end becoming nothing more than a
tube holder.

I paid $12.99 per tube since I bought small quantities. Volume discounts are
available. Similar tubes are $20 at the home centers.

As far as passing an electrical inspection that's a good point. EarthLED
is closed right now, but I'm going to call them later and see what they
say about voiding the UL et al listings.

"The tombstones are not rated for the 120 volts either."

That's an interesting question. I used the tombstones that came with my
fixture. They are non-shunted so they work with the single end tubes.
However, if I had shunted tombstones, I could buy non-shunted tombstones
from EarthLED which are not only UL listed, but also rated for 600V.

https://www.earthled.com/products/th...ersions-4-pack

Now, that doesn't mean the tombstones in *my* fixture are rated for 600V,
but the EarthLED website says:

"Retrofitting a T8 (1 in.) Tube? Be sure to purchase One non-shunted tombstone/lampholder for each tube light. ("Purchase Here" link included)

Have a T12 (1.5 in.) Tube? You are all set! No tombstone change required."

If there was any question as to whether existing tombstones are rated for
120V, I would assume they would mention that and suggest that you buy more
products from them. Instead, they say "No tombstone change required." I
will ask them that question also.

I too am curious about Ralph's comments, especially the code
restrictions. Am I mistaken or is he in Canada.

The tubes I ordered came with two, self-adhesive labels to be placed
prominently on each fixture to advise the fixtures have been converted
to LED.

I forgot to comment on this before...

I doubt a label, even if supplied by the LED tube vendor, would sway an
inspector towards passing a fixture that wasn't originally rated for its
"modified use".

All the labels do is warn the user. Labels fade, labels fall off, labels
never get applied. If this really is a code issue - or if enough accidents
happen - then I wouldn't be surprised if (eventually) they change the pin
configuration of LED tubes and supply (sell) LED-specific tombstones.

That would prevent the installation of T8/T12 tubes in a modified fixture.


As an aside, I noticed Costco is selling a two pack of FEIT brand LED
replacement tubes for about $18. I think they were 4100k and 1800
lumens.

On Fri, 16 Dec 2016 07:41:11 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:



I too am curious about Ralph's comments, especially the code
restrictions. Am I mistaken or is he in Canada.

The tubes I ordered came with two, self-adhesive labels to be placed
prominently on each fixture to advise the fixtures have been converted
to LED.

I forgot to comment on this before...

I doubt a label, even if supplied by the LED tube vendor, would sway an
inspector towards passing a fixture that wasn't originally rated for its
"modified use".

All the labels do is warn the user. Labels fade, labels fall off, labels
never get applied. If this really is a code issue - or if enough accidents
happen - then I wouldn't be surprised if (eventually) they change the pin
configuration of LED tubes and supply (sell) LED-specific tombstones.

That would prevent the installation of T8/T12 tubes in a modified fixture.


As an aside, I noticed Costco is selling a two pack of FEIT brand LED
replacement tubes for about $18. I think they were 4100k and 1800
lumens.

I see I erred and it was Clare that made the comments about electrical
codes. I wonder if he has a citation?

I normally don't engage in this kind of rationalization, but I have a
difficult time believing Costco would sell these retrofit tubes if
retrofitting an existing fixture would not pass inspection.

Yes, I know they might, but from a liability perspective, it would
seem to put Costco, with very deep pockets, squarely into the
crosshairs.

On Fri, 16 Dec 2016 09:37:08 -0500, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article ,
says...


One minor problem up here. No electrical inspector will EVER pass
them if he sees them - they are not CSA approved, and the fixture
isn't any more either when you re-wire it. The tombstones are not
rated for the 120 volts either. Would you get caught? Mabee, mabee not
- but there are direct fits available that ARE CSA approved and fully
legal, as well as purpose designed LED fixtures - but they do cost a
bit more.

What are you paying for the tubes? just for interest.

I checked some tombstones that I pulled out of some of the about $ 10
shop lights. They are rated for 800 volts and UL listed.

Looks to me like the tombstones should be rated for 120 or more volts as
the lamps are hooked directly to the AC line through a ballast that does
not cut the voltage to a much lowe voltage.


But there is only a low fillament voltage across the pins. They are
certified forn 800 volta across a 4 foot tube, but only for about 10
volts from pin to pin. Do these units put 120 volts from end to end,
or pin to pin. If end to end the CSA certification is valid. If pin to
pin they are not being used for the approved application and are
therefore non-certified. The ones I saw all used 120 volts pin to pin,
which, to put it mildly, scared the crap out of me.

posted for all of us...



On 14 Dec 2016 17:48:54 GMT, notbob wrote:

On 2016-12-14, Stormin' Norman wrote:

Clare's message does not appear in the LED replacement tube thread.

Yeah, it does.


1 D 25:[Stormin' Nor] Review: LED replacements for T8
Fluorescent Tubes
- D-9999 45:[DerbyDad03 ]
3 D 27:[clare@snyder] Manual tire changers


nb
Well, not sure how it happened. I had my Agent application open and
clicked on "post" "New Usenet Message" and filled in the "subject"
line as "manual tire changers" and went from there - SO SORRY if
somehow I offended the sensative adults in the group

This is a micro-aggression and we meed a safe space, canceling finals, and
most of all therapy dogs. You anteing up? How about the flag US or Canadian?

--
Tekkie

On Fri, 16 Dec 2016 06:39:57 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Thursday, December 15, 2016 at 11:42:03 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 19:45:12 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Thursday, December 15, 2016 at 9:49:01 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 10:30:36 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Wednesday, December 14, 2016 at 8:54:47 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On 14 Dec 2016 17:48:54 GMT, notbob wrote:

On 2016-12-14, Stormin' Norman wrote:

Clare's message does not appear in the LED replacement tube thread.

Yeah, it does.


1 D 25:[Stormin' Nor] Review: LED replacements for T8
Fluorescent Tubes
- D-9999 45:[DerbyDad03 ]
3 D 27:[clare@snyder] Manual tire changers


nb
Well, not sure how it happened. I had my Agent application open and
clicked on "post" "New Usenet Message" and filled in the "subject"
line as "manual tire changers" and went from there - SO SORRY if
somehow I offended the sensative adults in the group

AFAIK, no one was offended.

When I first saw your post in the LED thread, there was nothing else for
me to do except ask why you posted your comments in the LED thread. I had
no way of knowing what process you followed, all I knew was that your comments
were unrelated to the OP.

I did find it interesting how strongly you seem to object to what we
were seeing.

"The thread is very plainly titled "manual tire changers" _ don't
know what you are reading - or who's glasses you have on - - - "

and

"Where in the thread entitled "manual tire changers" do you find
ANYTHING about LED tubes???? I STARTED this damned thread."

No one jumped on you, we simply stated the facts based on what we were
actually seeing. On the other hand, you starting yelling at us.

Interesting, indeed.
Like I said - Sorry. In Agent it all looks normal, so I had no Idea I
had screwed up. I must have had something highlighted somewhere in
Agent when I started the new thread. I had not even been following the
LED TUBE thread

It is a curiosity, that's for sure. No biggy.

You should check out the LED tube thread. Stormin and I have just started replacing some
of our ballast-required flourescent tubes with direct wire LED tubes. Same fixture, you just
cut the ballast out of the circuit and wire 120 V directly to the tombstones.

So far, we like them.
One minor problem up here. No electrical inspector will EVER pass
them if he sees them - they are not CSA approved, and the fixture
isn't any more either when you re-wire it. The tombstones are not
rated for the 120 volts either. Would you get caught? Mabee, mabee not
- but there are direct fits available that ARE CSA approved and fully
legal, as well as purpose designed LED fixtures - but they do cost a
bit more.

What are you paying for the tubes? just for interest.

First, I'm curious about this thread thing.

I assume that if you are asking about prices, then you have not seen the
first 2 posts from Stormin' and I regarding the LED tubes that we purchased,
correct?

I assume that you are only seeing the responses since you started the
"Manual tire changers" thread/sub-thread/alternate-universe-thread. ;-)
For some of us, your topic appears as the 3rd post in the LED tube thread
and all the responses just follow in line from there.

I'm really curious as to what you would see if you looked at the thread
entitled "Review: LED replacements for T8 Fluorescent Tubes". Would
you mind checking that out? I wonder if all you see is the first 2
posts.

In any case, here is what Stormin' bought:

http://amzn.to/2h5hwDj

They are apparently "dual-end powered" tubes where the hot is wired to
a tombstone on one of the fixture and the neutral is wired to the
tombstone at the other.

I bought these:

http://tinyurl.com/EarthLED-Tube

These are single end powered so they are wired with the hot and neutral
on a single tombstone with the other end becoming nothing more than a
tube holder.

I paid $12.99 per tube since I bought small quantities. Volume discounts are
available. Similar tubes are $20 at the home centers.

As far as passing an electrical inspection that's a good point. EarthLED
is closed right now, but I'm going to call them later and see what they
say about voiding the UL et al listings.

"The tombstones are not rated for the 120 volts either."

That's an interesting question. I used the tombstones that came with my
fixture. They are non-shunted so they work with the single end tubes.
However, if I had shunted tombstones, I could buy non-shunted tombstones
from EarthLED which are not only UL listed, but also rated for 600V.

https://www.earthled.com/products/th...ersions-4-pack

Now, that doesn't mean the tombstones in *my* fixture are rated for 600V,
but the EarthLED website says:

"Retrofitting a T8 (1 in.) Tube? Be sure to purchase One non-shunted tombstone/lampholder for each tube light. ("Purchase Here" link included)

Have a T12 (1.5 in.) Tube? You are all set! No tombstone change required."

If there was any question as to whether existing tombstones are rated for
120V, I would assume they would mention that and suggest that you buy more
products from them. Instead, they say "No tombstone change required." I
will ask them that question also.
Stormin's application is within the certification and safe. Yours is
not within the certification, and is, frankly, not safe..
Also, I immagine you are quoting US$ pricing.
At Costco Canada and several other Canadian suppliers we can buy
direct replacement LED tubes - set of 2 40s for IIRC $38.00 Canadion
which translates to about US$14 per tube. Fully CSA and UL approved -
direct fit replacements with no modifications to the fixture.

Can you imagine someone installing a standard tube in your modified
fixture???? Particularly with the power on????
In Stormin's the light wouldn't light, but there would not likely be
any harm done (which is why it is still within the certification -
kinda-sorta-mabee-almost - in a whattheheckish fashion.

On Friday, December 16, 2016 at 3:43:43 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Fri, 16 Dec 2016 09:37:08 -0500, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article ,
says...


One minor problem up here. No electrical inspector will EVER pass
them if he sees them - they are not CSA approved, and the fixture
isn't any more either when you re-wire it. The tombstones are not
rated for the 120 volts either. Would you get caught? Mabee, mabee not
- but there are direct fits available that ARE CSA approved and fully
legal, as well as purpose designed LED fixtures - but they do cost a
bit more.

What are you paying for the tubes? just for interest.

I checked some tombstones that I pulled out of some of the about $ 10
shop lights. They are rated for 800 volts and UL listed.

Looks to me like the tombstones should be rated for 120 or more volts as
the lamps are hooked directly to the AC line through a ballast that does
not cut the voltage to a much lowe voltage.


But there is only a low fillament voltage across the pins. They are
certified forn 800 volta across a 4 foot tube, but only for about 10
volts from pin to pin. Do these units put 120 volts from end to end,
or pin to pin. If end to end the CSA certification is valid. If pin to
pin they are not being used for the approved application and are
therefore non-certified. The ones I saw all used 120 volts pin to pin,
which, to put it mildly, scared the crap out of me.

Why does it scare the crap out of you?

I posted a link to the tombstones sold by EarthLED. They say they are
rated for 600 volts. It doesn't say anything about "over a 4' foot tube".
It specifically says for use with a "single end powered LED" tube.

I'll post it again...

https://www.earthled.com/products/th...ersions-4-pack

I'll quote from the link:

"Retrofitting a fluorescent T8 fixture to single end powered LED T8 ballast bypass direct wire tube light? These non-shunted sockets are for you! They allow the wiring of one side of the tube light with a live and neutral connection.

UL Listed
Rated to 600 Volts, 660 Watts
G13 Pin Type"

On Fri, 16 Dec 2016 15:02:25 +0000, Stormin' Norman
wrote:

On Fri, 16 Dec 2016 06:39:57 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Thursday, December 15, 2016 at 11:42:03 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 19:45:12 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Thursday, December 15, 2016 at 9:49:01 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 10:30:36 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Wednesday, December 14, 2016 at 8:54:47 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On 14 Dec 2016 17:48:54 GMT, notbob wrote:

On 2016-12-14, Stormin' Norman wrote:

Clare's message does not appear in the LED replacement tube thread.

Yeah, it does.


1 D 25:[Stormin' Nor] Review: LED replacements for T8
Fluorescent Tubes
- D-9999 45:[DerbyDad03 ]
3 D 27:[clare@snyder] Manual tire changers


nb
Well, not sure how it happened. I had my Agent application open and
clicked on "post" "New Usenet Message" and filled in the "subject"
line as "manual tire changers" and went from there - SO SORRY if
somehow I offended the sensative adults in the group

AFAIK, no one was offended.

When I first saw your post in the LED thread, there was nothing else for
me to do except ask why you posted your comments in the LED thread. I had
no way of knowing what process you followed, all I knew was that your comments
were unrelated to the OP.

I did find it interesting how strongly you seem to object to what we
were seeing.

"The thread is very plainly titled "manual tire changers" _ don't
know what you are reading - or who's glasses you have on - - - "

and

"Where in the thread entitled "manual tire changers" do you find
ANYTHING about LED tubes???? I STARTED this damned thread."

No one jumped on you, we simply stated the facts based on what we were
actually seeing. On the other hand, you starting yelling at us.

Interesting, indeed.
Like I said - Sorry. In Agent it all looks normal, so I had no Idea I
had screwed up. I must have had something highlighted somewhere in
Agent when I started the new thread. I had not even been following the
LED TUBE thread

It is a curiosity, that's for sure. No biggy.

You should check out the LED tube thread. Stormin and I have just started replacing some
of our ballast-required flourescent tubes with direct wire LED tubes. Same fixture, you just
cut the ballast out of the circuit and wire 120 V directly to the tombstones.

So far, we like them.
One minor problem up here. No electrical inspector will EVER pass
them if he sees them - they are not CSA approved, and the fixture
isn't any more either when you re-wire it. The tombstones are not
rated for the 120 volts either. Would you get caught? Mabee, mabee not
- but there are direct fits available that ARE CSA approved and fully
legal, as well as purpose designed LED fixtures - but they do cost a
bit more.

What are you paying for the tubes? just for interest.

First, I'm curious about this thread thing.

I assume that if you are asking about prices, then you have not seen the
first 2 posts from Stormin' and I regarding the LED tubes that we purchased,
correct?

I assume that you are only seeing the responses since you started the
"Manual tire changers" thread/sub-thread/alternate-universe-thread. ;-)
For some of us, your topic appears as the 3rd post in the LED tube thread
and all the responses just follow in line from there.

I'm really curious as to what you would see if you looked at the thread
entitled "Review: LED replacements for T8 Fluorescent Tubes". Would
you mind checking that out? I wonder if all you see is the first 2
posts.

In any case, here is what Stormin' bought:

http://amzn.to/2h5hwDj

They are apparently "dual-end powered" tubes where the hot is wired to
a tombstone on one of the fixture and the neutral is wired to the
tombstone at the other.

I bought these:

http://tinyurl.com/EarthLED-Tube

These are single end powered so they are wired with the hot and neutral
on a single tombstone with the other end becoming nothing more than a
tube holder.

I paid $12.99 per tube since I bought small quantities. Volume discounts are
available. Similar tubes are $20 at the home centers.

As far as passing an electrical inspection that's a good point. EarthLED
is closed right now, but I'm going to call them later and see what they
say about voiding the UL et al listings.

"The tombstones are not rated for the 120 volts either."

That's an interesting question. I used the tombstones that came with my
fixture. They are non-shunted so they work with the single end tubes.
However, if I had shunted tombstones, I could buy non-shunted tombstones
from EarthLED which are not only UL listed, but also rated for 600V.

https://www.earthled.com/products/th...ersions-4-pack

Now, that doesn't mean the tombstones in *my* fixture are rated for 600V,
but the EarthLED website says:

"Retrofitting a T8 (1 in.) Tube? Be sure to purchase One non-shunted tombstone/lampholder for each tube light. ("Purchase Here" link included)

Have a T12 (1.5 in.) Tube? You are all set! No tombstone change required."

If there was any question as to whether existing tombstones are rated for
120V, I would assume they would mention that and suggest that you buy more
products from them. Instead, they say "No tombstone change required." I
will ask them that question also.

I too am curious about Ralph's comments, especially the code
restrictions. Am I mistaken or is he in Canada.

The tubes I ordered came with two, self-adhesive labels to be placed
prominently on each fixture to advise the fixtures have been converted
to LED.

As an aside, I noticed Costco is selling a two pack of FEIT brand LED
replacement tubes for about $18. I think they were 4100k and 1800
lumens.
$38 Canadian up here - and that is US$28. See how we get raped up
here? You buy them for Can$24 compares to us at $38.
And it is NOT taxes or government interventyion - it's the American
owned dealers like Costco and manufactuerers like FEIT taking
advantage of the smaller Canadian market and the requirement to label
in French and English - - -

On Fri, 16 Dec 2016 07:29:25 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Friday, December 16, 2016 at 10:02:26 AM UTC-5, Stormin' Norman wrote:
On Fri, 16 Dec 2016 06:39:57 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Thursday, December 15, 2016 at 11:42:03 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 19:45:12 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Thursday, December 15, 2016 at 9:49:01 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 10:30:36 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Wednesday, December 14, 2016 at 8:54:47 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On 14 Dec 2016 17:48:54 GMT, notbob wrote:

On 2016-12-14, Stormin' Norman wrote:

Clare's message does not appear in the LED replacement tube thread.

Yeah, it does.


1 D 25:[Stormin' Nor] Review: LED replacements for T8
Fluorescent Tubes
- D-9999 45:[DerbyDad03 ]
3 D 27:[clare@snyder] Manual tire changers


nb
Well, not sure how it happened. I had my Agent application open and
clicked on "post" "New Usenet Message" and filled in the "subject"
line as "manual tire changers" and went from there - SO SORRY if
somehow I offended the sensative adults in the group

AFAIK, no one was offended.

When I first saw your post in the LED thread, there was nothing else for
me to do except ask why you posted your comments in the LED thread. I had
no way of knowing what process you followed, all I knew was that your comments
were unrelated to the OP.

I did find it interesting how strongly you seem to object to what we
were seeing.

"The thread is very plainly titled "manual tire changers" _ don't
know what you are reading - or who's glasses you have on - - - "

and

"Where in the thread entitled "manual tire changers" do you find
ANYTHING about LED tubes???? I STARTED this damned thread."

No one jumped on you, we simply stated the facts based on what we were
actually seeing. On the other hand, you starting yelling at us.

Interesting, indeed.
Like I said - Sorry. In Agent it all looks normal, so I had no Idea I
had screwed up. I must have had something highlighted somewhere in
Agent when I started the new thread. I had not even been following the
LED TUBE thread

It is a curiosity, that's for sure. No biggy.

You should check out the LED tube thread. Stormin and I have just started replacing some
of our ballast-required flourescent tubes with direct wire LED tubes. Same fixture, you just
cut the ballast out of the circuit and wire 120 V directly to the tombstones.

So far, we like them.
One minor problem up here. No electrical inspector will EVER pass
them if he sees them - they are not CSA approved, and the fixture
isn't any more either when you re-wire it. The tombstones are not
rated for the 120 volts either. Would you get caught? Mabee, mabee not
- but there are direct fits available that ARE CSA approved and fully
legal, as well as purpose designed LED fixtures - but they do cost a
bit more.

What are you paying for the tubes? just for interest.

First, I'm curious about this thread thing.

I assume that if you are asking about prices, then you have not seen the
first 2 posts from Stormin' and I regarding the LED tubes that we purchased,
correct?

I assume that you are only seeing the responses since you started the
"Manual tire changers" thread/sub-thread/alternate-universe-thread. ;-)
For some of us, your topic appears as the 3rd post in the LED tube thread
and all the responses just follow in line from there.

I'm really curious as to what you would see if you looked at the thread
entitled "Review: LED replacements for T8 Fluorescent Tubes". Would
you mind checking that out? I wonder if all you see is the first 2
posts.

In any case, here is what Stormin' bought:

http://amzn.to/2h5hwDj

They are apparently "dual-end powered" tubes where the hot is wired to
a tombstone on one of the fixture and the neutral is wired to the
tombstone at the other.

I bought these:

http://tinyurl.com/EarthLED-Tube

These are single end powered so they are wired with the hot and neutral
on a single tombstone with the other end becoming nothing more than a
tube holder.

I paid $12.99 per tube since I bought small quantities. Volume discounts are
available. Similar tubes are $20 at the home centers.

As far as passing an electrical inspection that's a good point. EarthLED
is closed right now, but I'm going to call them later and see what they
say about voiding the UL et al listings.

"The tombstones are not rated for the 120 volts either."

That's an interesting question. I used the tombstones that came with my
fixture. They are non-shunted so they work with the single end tubes.
However, if I had shunted tombstones, I could buy non-shunted tombstones
from EarthLED which are not only UL listed, but also rated for 600V.

https://www.earthled.com/products/th...ersions-4-pack

Now, that doesn't mean the tombstones in *my* fixture are rated for 600V,
but the EarthLED website says:

"Retrofitting a T8 (1 in.) Tube? Be sure to purchase One non-shunted tombstone/lampholder for each tube light. ("Purchase Here" link included)

Have a T12 (1.5 in.) Tube? You are all set! No tombstone change required."

If there was any question as to whether existing tombstones are rated for
120V, I would assume they would mention that and suggest that you buy more
products from them. Instead, they say "No tombstone change required." I
will ask them that question also.

I too am curious about Ralph's comments, especially the code
restrictions. Am I mistaken or is he in Canada.


Clare is in Canada. He is the one that mention possible problems with
the inspectors. I don't know where Ralph lives but was the one that
mentioned the voltage rating on the tombstones he pulled out.

The tubes I ordered came with two, self-adhesive labels to be placed
prominently on each fixture to advise the fixtures have been converted
to LED.

As an aside, I noticed Costco is selling a two pack of FEIT brand LED
replacement tubes for about $18. I think they were 4100k and 1800
lumens.

HD has some 1800 lumen tubes also. I think they might be to dim.
The Feits will almost burn your retinas if you look directly at them.

On Fri, 16 Dec 2016 07:41:11 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Friday, December 16, 2016 at 10:02:26 AM UTC-5, Stormin' Norman wrote:
On Fri, 16 Dec 2016 06:39:57 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Thursday, December 15, 2016 at 11:42:03 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 19:45:12 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Thursday, December 15, 2016 at 9:49:01 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 10:30:36 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Wednesday, December 14, 2016 at 8:54:47 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On 14 Dec 2016 17:48:54 GMT, notbob wrote:

On 2016-12-14, Stormin' Norman wrote:

Clare's message does not appear in the LED replacement tube thread.

Yeah, it does.


1 D 25:[Stormin' Nor] Review: LED replacements for T8
Fluorescent Tubes
- D-9999 45:[DerbyDad03 ]
3 D 27:[clare@snyder] Manual tire changers


nb
Well, not sure how it happened. I had my Agent application open and
clicked on "post" "New Usenet Message" and filled in the "subject"
line as "manual tire changers" and went from there - SO SORRY if
somehow I offended the sensative adults in the group

AFAIK, no one was offended.

When I first saw your post in the LED thread, there was nothing else for
me to do except ask why you posted your comments in the LED thread. I had
no way of knowing what process you followed, all I knew was that your comments
were unrelated to the OP.

I did find it interesting how strongly you seem to object to what we
were seeing.

"The thread is very plainly titled "manual tire changers" _ don't
know what you are reading - or who's glasses you have on - - - "

and

"Where in the thread entitled "manual tire changers" do you find
ANYTHING about LED tubes???? I STARTED this damned thread."

No one jumped on you, we simply stated the facts based on what we were
actually seeing. On the other hand, you starting yelling at us.

Interesting, indeed.
Like I said - Sorry. In Agent it all looks normal, so I had no Idea I
had screwed up. I must have had something highlighted somewhere in
Agent when I started the new thread. I had not even been following the
LED TUBE thread

It is a curiosity, that's for sure. No biggy.

You should check out the LED tube thread. Stormin and I have just started replacing some
of our ballast-required flourescent tubes with direct wire LED tubes. Same fixture, you just
cut the ballast out of the circuit and wire 120 V directly to the tombstones.

So far, we like them.
One minor problem up here. No electrical inspector will EVER pass
them if he sees them - they are not CSA approved, and the fixture
isn't any more either when you re-wire it. The tombstones are not
rated for the 120 volts either. Would you get caught? Mabee, mabee not
- but there are direct fits available that ARE CSA approved and fully
legal, as well as purpose designed LED fixtures - but they do cost a
bit more.

What are you paying for the tubes? just for interest.

First, I'm curious about this thread thing.

I assume that if you are asking about prices, then you have not seen the
first 2 posts from Stormin' and I regarding the LED tubes that we purchased,
correct?

I assume that you are only seeing the responses since you started the
"Manual tire changers" thread/sub-thread/alternate-universe-thread. ;-)
For some of us, your topic appears as the 3rd post in the LED tube thread
and all the responses just follow in line from there.

I'm really curious as to what you would see if you looked at the thread
entitled "Review: LED replacements for T8 Fluorescent Tubes". Would
you mind checking that out? I wonder if all you see is the first 2
posts.

In any case, here is what Stormin' bought:

http://amzn.to/2h5hwDj

They are apparently "dual-end powered" tubes where the hot is wired to
a tombstone on one of the fixture and the neutral is wired to the
tombstone at the other.

I bought these:

http://tinyurl.com/EarthLED-Tube

These are single end powered so they are wired with the hot and neutral
on a single tombstone with the other end becoming nothing more than a
tube holder.

I paid $12.99 per tube since I bought small quantities. Volume discounts are
available. Similar tubes are $20 at the home centers.

As far as passing an electrical inspection that's a good point. EarthLED
is closed right now, but I'm going to call them later and see what they
say about voiding the UL et al listings.

"The tombstones are not rated for the 120 volts either."

That's an interesting question. I used the tombstones that came with my
fixture. They are non-shunted so they work with the single end tubes.
However, if I had shunted tombstones, I could buy non-shunted tombstones
from EarthLED which are not only UL listed, but also rated for 600V.

https://www.earthled.com/products/th...ersions-4-pack

Now, that doesn't mean the tombstones in *my* fixture are rated for 600V,
but the EarthLED website says:

"Retrofitting a T8 (1 in.) Tube? Be sure to purchase One non-shunted tombstone/lampholder for each tube light. ("Purchase Here" link included)

Have a T12 (1.5 in.) Tube? You are all set! No tombstone change required."

If there was any question as to whether existing tombstones are rated for
120V, I would assume they would mention that and suggest that you buy more
products from them. Instead, they say "No tombstone change required." I
will ask them that question also.

I too am curious about Ralph's comments, especially the code
restrictions. Am I mistaken or is he in Canada.

The tubes I ordered came with two, self-adhesive labels to be placed
prominently on each fixture to advise the fixtures have been converted
to LED.

I forgot to comment on this before...

I doubt a label, even if supplied by the LED tube vendor, would sway an
inspector towards passing a fixture that wasn't originally rated for its
"modified use".

All the labels do is warn the user. Labels fade, labels fall off, labels
never get applied. If this really is a code issue - or if enough accidents
happen - then I wouldn't be surprised if (eventually) they change the pin
configuration of LED tubes and supply (sell) LED-specific tombstones.

That would prevent the installation of T8/T12 tubes in a modified fixture.

This would be REQUIRED to get CSA approval on the single end bulbs in
Canada


As an aside, I noticed Costco is selling a two pack of FEIT brand LED
replacement tubes for about $18. I think they were 4100k and 1800
lumens.

On Fri, 16 Dec 2016 16:26:48 +0000, Stormin' Norman
wrote:

On Fri, 16 Dec 2016 07:41:11 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:



I too am curious about Ralph's comments, especially the code
restrictions. Am I mistaken or is he in Canada.

The tubes I ordered came with two, self-adhesive labels to be placed
prominently on each fixture to advise the fixtures have been converted
to LED.

I forgot to comment on this before...

I doubt a label, even if supplied by the LED tube vendor, would sway an
inspector towards passing a fixture that wasn't originally rated for its
"modified use".

All the labels do is warn the user. Labels fade, labels fall off, labels
never get applied. If this really is a code issue - or if enough accidents
happen - then I wouldn't be surprised if (eventually) they change the pin
configuration of LED tubes and supply (sell) LED-specific tombstones.

That would prevent the installation of T8/T12 tubes in a modified fixture.


As an aside, I noticed Costco is selling a two pack of FEIT brand LED
replacement tubes for about $18. I think they were 4100k and 1800
lumens.

I see I erred and it was Clare that made the comments about electrical
codes. I wonder if he has a citation?

I normally don't engage in this kind of rationalization, but I have a
difficult time believing Costco would sell these retrofit tubes if
retrofitting an existing fixture would not pass inspection.

Yes, I know they might, but from a liability perspective, it would
seem to put Costco, with very deep pockets, squarely into the
crosshairs.
They don't sell the conversion tubes in Canada because it is
iullegal. They DO sell the "direct fit" tubes because no modification
is required.

The safety requirements in Canada are generally MUCH more stringent in
the USA. Technically in the US all electrical devices must be UL
"listed" - which really just means they will not burn your house down
in normal use and won't kill you from a distance of 10 feet - or
something like that. It is insurance driven (UL is Underwriters Labs)

In Canada they musr be CSA "approved" - which means there is virtually
no way even an idiot can kill themselves with it, even it the
unlikeliest of circumstances.

The law is not consistantly applied or enforced - but it is a heavy
stick when applied..
I learned all this when employed by a small 3rd tier computer
manufacturer. Getting CSA approval on a system was an expensive and
somewhat daunting task as you needed to certify virtually every
combination of features you were going to offer.

You could start with a CSA approved case, CSA approved power supply,
CSA approved motherboard, video card, modem, NIC, keyboard and mouse
and you still did not have a CSA approved computer - and switching to
a different video card voided the ciertification..
Any non-approved modification of a CSA certified device renders the
CSA certification void..

It is similar to your FAA and a certified plane. Any modifications
without a STC (Supleimental type certificate), or the replacement od
ANYTHING with a non-certified part, or any repair performed by someone
whoi is not a currently licenced AME renders the certification on the
plane VOID - making it illegal to fly - and the penalties are pretty
stiff when applied.

On Friday, December 16, 2016 at 8:36:57 AM UTC-6, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article ,
says...


One minor problem up here. No electrical inspector will EVER pass
them if he sees them - they are not CSA approved, and the fixture
isn't any more either when you re-wire it. The tombstones are not
rated for the 120 volts either. Would you get caught? Mabee, mabee not
- but there are direct fits available that ARE CSA approved and fully
legal, as well as purpose designed LED fixtures - but they do cost a
bit more.

What are you paying for the tubes? just for interest.

I checked some tombstones that I pulled out of some of the about $ 10
shop lights. They are rated for 800 volts and UL listed.

Looks to me like the tombstones should be rated for 120 or more volts as
the lamps are hooked directly to the AC line through a ballast that does
not cut the voltage to a much lowe voltage.


A ballast for a florescent fixture that uses 4 foot bi-pin lamps usually puts out around 600 volts thus the 800 volt rating for the sockets. The insulation for 120/240 volt outlets, switches, screw in lamp sockets and Romex is rated for 600 volts if I remember correctly. If you think about it, a voltage surge will be a much higher voltage than the supply voltage so the insulation in the electrical system of a home needs to be somewhat tolerant of higher voltages. ヽ(ヅ)ノ

[8~{} Uncle Insulated Monster

On Fri, 16 Dec 2016 12:51:57 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Friday, December 16, 2016 at 3:43:43 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Fri, 16 Dec 2016 09:37:08 -0500, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article ,
says...


One minor problem up here. No electrical inspector will EVER pass
them if he sees them - they are not CSA approved, and the fixture
isn't any more either when you re-wire it. The tombstones are not
rated for the 120 volts either. Would you get caught? Mabee, mabee not
- but there are direct fits available that ARE CSA approved and fully
legal, as well as purpose designed LED fixtures - but they do cost a
bit more.

What are you paying for the tubes? just for interest.

I checked some tombstones that I pulled out of some of the about $ 10
shop lights. They are rated for 800 volts and UL listed.

Looks to me like the tombstones should be rated for 120 or more volts as
the lamps are hooked directly to the AC line through a ballast that does
not cut the voltage to a much lowe voltage.


But there is only a low fillament voltage across the pins. They are
certified forn 800 volta across a 4 foot tube, but only for about 10
volts from pin to pin. Do these units put 120 volts from end to end,
or pin to pin. If end to end the CSA certification is valid. If pin to
pin they are not being used for the approved application and are
therefore non-certified. The ones I saw all used 120 volts pin to pin,
which, to put it mildly, scared the crap out of me.

Why does it scare the crap out of you?

I'm talking primarilly about the original tombstones - but also the
FACT that it is "possible" to install a standard tube in that
tombstone - which is NOT SAFE.

However, it's you shop, your fire insurance, your liability
And they are NO DIFFERENT than a standard non-chunted tombstone as
used in virtually every older style flourescent fixture. The listing
on them is NOT for 600 volts pin to pin..

I posted a link to the tombstones sold by EarthLED. They say they are
rated for 600 volts. It doesn't say anything about "over a 4' foot tube".
It specifically says for use with a "single end powered LED" tube.

I'll post it again...

I saw it. Still not impressed. Still won't pass canadian inspection.
Will never neet CSA approval.

https://www.earthled.com/products/th...ersions-4-pack

I'll quote from the link:

"Retrofitting a fluorescent T8 fixture to single end powered LED T8 ballast bypass direct wire tube light? These non-shunted sockets are for you! They allow the wiring of one side of the tube light with a live and neutral connection.

UL Listed
Rated to 600 Volts, 660 Watts
G13 Pin Type"

On Fri, 16 Dec 2016 17:07:34 -0800 (PST), Uncle Monster
wrote:

On Friday, December 16, 2016 at 8:36:57 AM UTC-6, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article ,
says...


One minor problem up here. No electrical inspector will EVER pass
them if he sees them - they are not CSA approved, and the fixture
isn't any more either when you re-wire it. The tombstones are not
rated for the 120 volts either. Would you get caught? Mabee, mabee not
- but there are direct fits available that ARE CSA approved and fully
legal, as well as purpose designed LED fixtures - but they do cost a
bit more.

What are you paying for the tubes? just for interest.

I checked some tombstones that I pulled out of some of the about $ 10
shop lights. They are rated for 800 volts and UL listed.

Looks to me like the tombstones should be rated for 120 or more volts as
the lamps are hooked directly to the AC line through a ballast that does
not cut the voltage to a much lowe voltage.


A ballast for a florescent fixture that uses 4 foot bi-pin lamps usually puts out around 600 volts thus the 800 volt rating for the sockets. The insulation for 120/240 volt outlets, switches, screw in lamp sockets and Romex is rated for 600 volts if I remember correctly. If you think about it, a voltage surge will be a much higher voltage than the supply voltage so the insulation in the electrical system of a home needs to be somewhat tolerant of higher voltages. ?(?)?

[8~{} Uncle Insulated Monster
But the high voltage is NOT impressed across the 2 pins. Across the
pins sees only less than 12 volts in typical operation The 600 or 800
vots is the ionization voltage BETWEEN the 2 filaments - from tomstone
to tomestone.

Thu, 15 Dec 2016 01:22:47 GMT in alt.home.repair, wrote:

On Wed, 14 Dec 2016 04:27:07 -0800 (PST), Uncle Monster
wrote:

On Wednesday, December 14, 2016 at 5:51:16 AM UTC-6, DerbyDad03
wrote:
On Tuesday, December 13, 2016 at 10:01:15 PM UTC-5,
wrote:
For any of you guys following the thread about changing your
own tires at home, I'm not saying you handy guys can't or
shouldn't change your own tires. However, you really should
consider something a few steps above the cheap Harbour Fright
POS that is being discussed. If you want to be a cheap-ass -
sure it is possible for someone who knows how to change tires
to get away with the POS -but there are much better units on
the market - and still at a reasonable price. No, I have not
used the actual unit I am pointing you at.

Look at the Northern Tool offering -- Manual Tire Changing
Station Without Floor Plate, Model# CH-22/23 for $449. Also
available is TSI Manual Tire Changing Station With Floor
Plate, Model# CH-22/23 FP for $649.

It's only 5 times as expensive as the Harbor Fright tool -
but it's
at least 10 times the tool

http://www.northerntool.com/shop/too...0646085_200646
085
or
http://www.northerntool.com/shop/too...0596755_200596
755
See the tubular bead breaker, and the "rim clamp" that won't
chew up
yhose fancy alloy rims, A whole lot more adjustment to the
bead braker, and a much better designed "shoe" on the breaker
too.

With that tool, you might actually pay for it with your
savings
changing your own tires - if you have an understanding of
what's involved and can appreciate the differnce between the
"machines"

Why are you talking about tire changers in a thread about LED
replacement tubes?

Why didn't you start a new thread with a relevant subject line?


Up dere in Canadastan, it's really, really cold so those Canucks
tend to drink a lot of booze to try to stay warm, eh. ?(?)?

[8~{} Uncle Southern Monster
Where in the thread entitled "manual tire changers" do you find
ANYTHING about LED tubes???? I STARTED this damned thread.



No, you didn't start a new thread. You changed the subject line and
hijacked the original thread which is visible in the post you quoted
from Derbydad and responded to. it's the reference MID in your post,
below:

MID:

Ref:

Subject: Review: LED replacements for T8 Fluorescent Tubes

Maybe you shouldn't claim to be some IT expert again in the future,
as clearly, you aren't.


--
Make yourself sheep and the wolves will eat you.
Benjamin Franklin

Thu,
15 Dec 2016 01:54:43 GMT in alt.home.repair, wrote:

On 14 Dec 2016 17:48:54 GMT, notbob wrote:

On 2016-12-14, Stormin' Norman wrote:

Clare's message does not appear in the LED replacement tube thread.

Yeah, it does.


1 D 25:[Stormin' Nor] Review: LED replacements for T8
Fluorescent Tubes
- D-9999 45:[DerbyDad03 ]
3 D 27:[clare@snyder] Manual tire changers


nb
Well, not sure how it happened. I had my Agent application open and
clicked on "post" "New Usenet Message" and filled in the "subject"
line as "manual tire changers" and went from there - SO SORRY if
somehow I offended the sensative adults in the group


It's easy. You replied to a post by Derby and changed the subject. You
didn't create a new thread, idiot savant, you hijacked this one!

http://picpaste.com/vsXrMrMF.bmp


--
Make yourself sheep and the wolves will eat you.
Benjamin Franklin

DerbyDad03
Thu, 15
Dec 2016 18:30:36 GMT in alt.home.repair, wrote:

AFAIK, no one was offended.

I took no offense until I read this:

Message-ID:

Once he decided to call someone an idiot, after he hijacked the damn
thread instead of making a new one, I was offended. It's an oxymoron to
me. He goes and does something really stupid, tries to defend it, calls
someone else an idiot in a thread he hijacked.

And supposedly, this guy has years of IT experience. Yet, doesn't know
how to create a new thread, vs hijack an already existing one. And then
wants to argue with others about it. How stupid can a person be?



--
Make yourself sheep and the wolves will eat you.
Benjamin Franklin

Thu, 15 Dec 2016 01:59:56 GMT in alt.home.repair, wrote:

Did you follow the link I gave to the Northern Tools website???
If you did, you didn't read.
Typical id10t problem

You are just proving what I said before about you and the type of
"customer" you are. The thread was restarted under a differnt
subject for a reason - and you HAD to jump in claiming to be
smarter than the rest of us again - exactly as I expected you
would.

Actually, no, it wasn't restarted. Changing the subject alone doesn't
automagically create a new thread, too. Talk about typical id10t
problem. Pot kettle, black in your case, friend.

http://picpaste.com/vsXrMrMF.bmp

How many years of IT experience was it you claimed to have? Yet, you
can't even properly use your usenet client? And, you want to call
others idiots? What an asshat.







--
Make yourself sheep and the wolves will eat you.
Benjamin Franklin

Thu, 15 Dec 2016 03:04:08 GMT in alt.home.repair, wrote:

Both your suggested tools clearly warn: "Not designed for removal
of passenger car tires."

1.
http://www.northerntool.com/shop/too...6085_200646085
2.
http://www.northerntool.com/shop/too...6755_200596755

So, for the $500 to $650 bucks you recommend, you can change
motorcycle and lawnmower tires, but what do you recommend for
passenger car tires (which was the topic of the thread you
deprecate)?
OK - upon closer reading (mea culpa) it DOES say noit "designed"

Lemme get this straight...

You hijack a thread

You argue with others about hijacking the thread, you thought! you
created a new one, but, you didn't.

You recommend the wrong products for the job

You bitch when someone notices the video is showing a motorcyle tire
being changed, because the products you suggested actually are for
that purpose, and, NOT for the purpose of changing a passenger car
tire.

You call the guy an idiot and offer no apology for that or
recommending the wrong stuff and jumping on him when he originally
notices?

Have I missed anything?



--
Make yourself sheep and the wolves will eat you.
Benjamin Franklin

On Sat, 17 Dec 2016 00:38:30 -0500, wrote:

On Fri, 16 Dec 2016 12:51:57 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Friday, December 16, 2016 at 3:43:43 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Fri, 16 Dec 2016 09:37:08 -0500, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article ,
says...


One minor problem up here. No electrical inspector will EVER pass
them if he sees them - they are not CSA approved, and the fixture
isn't any more either when you re-wire it. The tombstones are not
rated for the 120 volts either. Would you get caught? Mabee, mabee not
- but there are direct fits available that ARE CSA approved and fully
legal, as well as purpose designed LED fixtures - but they do cost a
bit more.

What are you paying for the tubes? just for interest.

I checked some tombstones that I pulled out of some of the about $ 10
shop lights. They are rated for 800 volts and UL listed.

Looks to me like the tombstones should be rated for 120 or more volts as
the lamps are hooked directly to the AC line through a ballast that does
not cut the voltage to a much lowe voltage.


But there is only a low fillament voltage across the pins. They are
certified forn 800 volta across a 4 foot tube, but only for about 10
volts from pin to pin. Do these units put 120 volts from end to end,
or pin to pin. If end to end the CSA certification is valid. If pin to
pin they are not being used for the approved application and are
therefore non-certified. The ones I saw all used 120 volts pin to pin,
which, to put it mildly, scared the crap out of me.

Why does it scare the crap out of you?

I'm talking primarilly about the original tombstones - but also the
FACT that it is "possible" to install a standard tube in that
tombstone - which is NOT SAFE.

However, it's you shop, your fire insurance, your liability
And they are NO DIFFERENT than a standard non-chunted tombstone as
used in virtually every older style flourescent fixture. The listing
on them is NOT for 600 volts pin to pin..

I posted a link to the tombstones sold by EarthLED. They say they are
rated for 600 volts. It doesn't say anything about "over a 4' foot tube".
It specifically says for use with a "single end powered LED" tube.

I'll post it again...

I saw it. Still not impressed. Still won't pass canadian inspection.
Will never neet CSA approval.

https://www.earthled.com/products/th...ersions-4-pack

I'll quote from the link:

"Retrofitting a fluorescent T8 fixture to single end powered LED T8 ballast bypass direct wire tube light? These non-shunted sockets are for you! They allow the wiring of one side of the tube light with a live and neutral connection.

UL Listed
Rated to 600 Volts, 660 Watts
G13 Pin Type"
Took my wife and daughter out to Costco this afternoon - and noticed
they had the Luminous brand 4 ft 19 watt LED direct replacement tubes
on for $20 a pair (actualy $19.99). They are 4000K, 2200 lumens and
when I replaced the T12s in the basement the new ones are noticeably
brighter - the existing tubes are likely 5 years old.
They are CSA approved for installation in an unmodified fixture with
either magnetic or electronic ballasts.

That's the last flourescents of any type now taken out of service in
the house - and the only incandescents left are in the bathrooms
(decorative style :fat alberts) and in the garage (Halogen reflector
floods). Everything else is now LED including outdoor motion sensors.

On Tue, 13 Dec 2016 22:01:12 -0500, advised:

With that tool, you might actually pay for it with your savings
changing your own tires - if you have an understanding of what's
involved and can appreciate the differnce between the "machines"

I finally broke down and bought the HF Pittsburgh Bead Breaker, Harbor
Freight item 92961. ( http://i.cubeupload.com/Lb3Fof.jpg )

I used that harbor freight bead breaker to break the beads on four
difficult steel-rim wheels with Optimo P235/75R15 108T thick-sidewall tires
seemingly glued on.
http://cubeupload.com/im/uFwoAk.jpg

After using it successfully (not without a few curses), I conclude the HF
standalone bead breaker sucks but it sucks differently than the bead
breaker attachment on the Harbor Freight tire changing tool.
http://i.cubeupload.com/rQiNkr.jpg

The HF tire changing tool bead breaker is fine for the three passenger
tires I've done now, but it's far too weak (puny would be more apropos) for
the strong sidewall SUV tires.
http://i.cubeupload.com/sjfJWR.jpg

Luckily (as Clare kindly warned me), all of what sucks in both tools can be
"fixed" if you know ahead of time what to modify (as Clare has kindly shown
us):
http://i.cubeupload.com/GqExGq.jpg

What sucks about the tire-changing tool bead-breaker attachment is:
a. The bead-breaker arms are too weak (and bend like a pretzel)
b. The clevis pins (thanks Clare) are far too sloppy (replace with bolts)
c. The bead breaker arc is far too small (about 1/2 to 1/4 of what you need
d. The tire iron twists out of your hands (use a vise grip to prevent that)
e. The tire iron is too soft so it bends when used as a lever (use pipe)
f. The base *must* be bolted down for SUV tires which require turning force
HF Pittsburgh Bead Breaker, Harbor Freight item #92961
http://www.harborfreight.com/bead-breaker-92961.html

What sucks about the standalone bead breaker tool is:
a. The base is far too short for big tires
b. The base has no attachment holes for securing to concrete or pallets
c. The lever action isn't all that powerful (but it's strong enough)
HF Pittsburgh Manual Tire Changer, Harbor Freight item #62317
http://www.harborfreight.com/automot...ger-62317.html

Here is the first method that I used as an expediency to temporarily
"extend" the base of the HF bead breaking tool (it was a steel shelf from a
Costco shelf rack):
http://cubeupload.com/im/nADolx.jpg

Here is the second method that I used to extend the base (it's just a board
of wood that I had lying around):
http://cubeupload.com/im/uZf7Id.jpg

I changed multiple car tires easily with both tools, but SUV 108T P235/75
tires stressed both tools to the max - where - without the emergency
modifications above - I don't think you can do the job (I couldn't).