On 10/2/2015 1:20 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Friday, October 2, 2015 at 3:04:44 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 10/2/2015 11:54 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Thursday, October 1, 2015 at 10:26:59 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 10/1/2015 5:36 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Thursday, October 1, 2015 at 3:47:16 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
You said it's a common practice for people to leave the batteries out. I say
it's not "common" in relation to how many detectors there are installed across
the globe.

Whether the batteries are left out for a night, a day or a year before the
fatal fires starts has nothing to do with the commonality of the practice.
How often they are left out as compared how often they are not is all that
counts when determining how "common" the practice is.

From a 9/2015 NFPA report:

Smoke Alarm Power Sources
Hardwired smoke alarms were present in 48% of reported home fires with smoke
alarms. Alarms powered by battery only were present in in 46% of reported home
fires.

In reported home fires in which the fire was large enough to activate the
alarm,
- Hardwired smoke alarms operated 94% of the time.
- Battery-powered smoke alarms operated in four out of five (80%) fires.

Reasons that Smoke Alarms Did Not Operate when Present in Large Enough Fires
--------------------------^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
In fires in which the smoke alarms were present but did not operate,
- Almost half (46%) of the smoke alarms had missing or disconnected
batteries. Nuisance alarms were the leading reason for disconnected
smoke alarms.
- Dead batteries caused one-quarter (24%) of the smoke alarm failures.
- Only 7% of the failures were due to hardwired power source problems,
including disconnected smoke alarms, power outages, and power shut-offs.

So, in response to your comment, below:
"Common? Until I see the numbers, I'll vote No."
I vote *yes* (70% of the fires!) -- unless you'd care to offer some OTHER
numbers?

Right, in 70% of homes *in which the smoke alarms were present but did not
operate* dead or missing batteries was the cause. No one denies that dead
or missing batteries will cause a smoke detector not to operate. The problem
is (once again) that that is not what we are discussing.

I'll try again: You said that the practice of leaving batteries out after
they are removed due to chirping is "common". I, once again, say that when
compared to all the cases where the batteries are *not* left out, the
practice is *not* common. The *practice of leaving the batteries out* is not
common. Does it happen? Yes. Do bad things happen when someone does that? Yes.
Is it common? Not in the grand scheme of all detectors everywhere.

Can you stick to that statement and tell me how you know that the practice is
common? Tell me how many times batteries are left out vs. how many times
they are replaced. Citing statistics related to how many smoke
detectors didn't operate due to missing batteries (46%) does nothing to
support your claim that the practice of leaving batteries out is "common". All
that does is tell us that missing batteries is a common cause for smoke
detectors not to operate. Well, yeah. I think that's pretty obvious.

It seems pretty obvious to me that the above statistic cites that 46% of those
FIRES had smoke detectors with batteries "missing or disconnected". Do you
think the "smoke detector police" are going to arbitrarily survey homes
where NO FIRES HAVE BEEN REPORTED to see if their smoke detectors have
batteries in place? If a battery is left out for a year (assume a battery
normally *lasts* a year, does that count as *one* event? Or, more than one?)

Thank you! You have finally made my point that the statistic you cited,
while true, does nothing to support your claim that leaving batteries
out is "common". That statistic is not relevant to this discussion. It
took us a while, but we're finally there.

No, you haven't defined "common"!

It is COMMON for people to run red lights!
(sit at any intersection in ANY city and you WILL see someone run a light!)
It is COMMON for people to be murdered with firearms (in practically any city)!
(listen to the news in any city and, chances are, today or yesterday
*someone* was murdered)
It is COMMON for gunmen to go on rampages at schools, malls, etc.
(how many times does it have to NOT happen to be considered a "rare" event)

If you look at the *probability* of any of these events happening, they
can be surprisingly LOW. But, that doesn't make them LESS COMMON!

It is RARE for us to find evidence of life on other planets!
It is RARE for us to find $100 bills on the sidewalk in front of us!
It is RARE for long lost relatives to show up on doorsteps!

You seem to think "common" means "a majority of the time". That's
not what "common" means:

- of frequent occurrence; usual; familiar:
- occurring or appearing frequently : familiar a common sight
- Occurring frequently or habitually; usual: It is common for movies
to last 90 minutes or more
- happening frequently, or existing in large amounts or numbers

etc.

You want "common" to mean:
- the greater part or number; the number larger than half the total
(opposed to minority)

If that were the case, there would be no "common" names, "common"
foods, "common" practices, etc. as very few things occur in a MAJORITY!

Put a NUMBER on your criteria. Or STFU.

Gee...you seem upset. Perhaps if you'd calm down, you could read what I
posted and grasp it.

Let me ask you a simple, straightforward question just to get us on the
same page:

If something happens 9.2% of the time, would you consider that to be
a common occurrence?

All I require is a simple "Yes" or "No". Can you do that?

You are confusing likelihood with frequency.

My chance of being MURDERED is essentially ZERO! Yet, murders are
FREQUENT and *common* occurrences!

I am *surrounded* by $20 bills. And, people carrying them. Yet,
I *rarely* encounter "loose" $20 bills on the sidewalk, in stores,
etc.

We have electrical storms pretty frequently. Yet, I have NEVER
encountered a person who was struck by lightning. It's a RARE event!

50,000 cars per day travel a half mile stretch of road a few blocks
from here. Some *small* fraction of those encounter a "red light".
An even smaller fraction of them encounter a "questionable" red
light (i.e., "MAYBE I can sneak through a long yellow"). Yet,
I can watch probably 50 people run red lights there in any given
24 hour period. That's 0.1%. FAR LESS THAN YOUR 9.2%!

YET, it is a COMMON OCCURRENCE! It happens frequently -- even if it
only happens some teeny-tiny fraction of the time that it *could* happen!

On Friday, October 2, 2015 at 6:34:39 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 10/2/2015 1:20 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Friday, October 2, 2015 at 3:04:44 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 10/2/2015 11:54 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Thursday, October 1, 2015 at 10:26:59 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 10/1/2015 5:36 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Thursday, October 1, 2015 at 3:47:16 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
You said it's a common practice for people to leave the batteries out. I say
it's not "common" in relation to how many detectors there are installed across
the globe.

Whether the batteries are left out for a night, a day or a year before the
fatal fires starts has nothing to do with the commonality of the practice.
How often they are left out as compared how often they are not is all that
counts when determining how "common" the practice is.

From a 9/2015 NFPA report:

Smoke Alarm Power Sources
Hardwired smoke alarms were present in 48% of reported home fires with smoke
alarms. Alarms powered by battery only were present in in 46% of reported home
fires.

In reported home fires in which the fire was large enough to activate the
alarm,
- Hardwired smoke alarms operated 94% of the time.
- Battery-powered smoke alarms operated in four out of five (80%) fires.

Reasons that Smoke Alarms Did Not Operate when Present in Large Enough Fires
--------------------------^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
In fires in which the smoke alarms were present but did not operate,
- Almost half (46%) of the smoke alarms had missing or disconnected
batteries. Nuisance alarms were the leading reason for disconnected
smoke alarms.
- Dead batteries caused one-quarter (24%) of the smoke alarm failures.
- Only 7% of the failures were due to hardwired power source problems,
including disconnected smoke alarms, power outages, and power shut-offs.

So, in response to your comment, below:
"Common? Until I see the numbers, I'll vote No."
I vote *yes* (70% of the fires!) -- unless you'd care to offer some OTHER
numbers?

Right, in 70% of homes *in which the smoke alarms were present but did not
operate* dead or missing batteries was the cause. No one denies that dead
or missing batteries will cause a smoke detector not to operate. The problem
is (once again) that that is not what we are discussing.

I'll try again: You said that the practice of leaving batteries out after
they are removed due to chirping is "common". I, once again, say that when
compared to all the cases where the batteries are *not* left out, the
practice is *not* common. The *practice of leaving the batteries out* is not
common. Does it happen? Yes. Do bad things happen when someone does that? Yes.
Is it common? Not in the grand scheme of all detectors everywhere.

Can you stick to that statement and tell me how you know that the practice is
common? Tell me how many times batteries are left out vs. how many times
they are replaced. Citing statistics related to how many smoke
detectors didn't operate due to missing batteries (46%) does nothing to
support your claim that the practice of leaving batteries out is "common". All
that does is tell us that missing batteries is a common cause for smoke
detectors not to operate. Well, yeah. I think that's pretty obvious.

It seems pretty obvious to me that the above statistic cites that 46% of those
FIRES had smoke detectors with batteries "missing or disconnected". Do you
think the "smoke detector police" are going to arbitrarily survey homes
where NO FIRES HAVE BEEN REPORTED to see if their smoke detectors have
batteries in place? If a battery is left out for a year (assume a battery
normally *lasts* a year, does that count as *one* event? Or, more than one?)

Thank you! You have finally made my point that the statistic you cited,
while true, does nothing to support your claim that leaving batteries
out is "common". That statistic is not relevant to this discussion. It
took us a while, but we're finally there.

No, you haven't defined "common"!

It is COMMON for people to run red lights!
(sit at any intersection in ANY city and you WILL see someone run a light!)
It is COMMON for people to be murdered with firearms (in practically any city)!
(listen to the news in any city and, chances are, today or yesterday
*someone* was murdered)
It is COMMON for gunmen to go on rampages at schools, malls, etc.
(how many times does it have to NOT happen to be considered a "rare" event)

If you look at the *probability* of any of these events happening, they
can be surprisingly LOW. But, that doesn't make them LESS COMMON!

It is RARE for us to find evidence of life on other planets!
It is RARE for us to find $100 bills on the sidewalk in front of us!
It is RARE for long lost relatives to show up on doorsteps!

You seem to think "common" means "a majority of the time". That's
not what "common" means:

- of frequent occurrence; usual; familiar:
- occurring or appearing frequently : familiar a common sight
- Occurring frequently or habitually; usual: It is common for movies
to last 90 minutes or more
- happening frequently, or existing in large amounts or numbers

etc.

You want "common" to mean:
- the greater part or number; the number larger than half the total
(opposed to minority)

If that were the case, there would be no "common" names, "common"
foods, "common" practices, etc. as very few things occur in a MAJORITY!

Put a NUMBER on your criteria. Or STFU.

Gee...you seem upset. Perhaps if you'd calm down, you could read what I
posted and grasp it.

Let me ask you a simple, straightforward question just to get us on the
same page:

If something happens 9.2% of the time, would you consider that to be
a common occurrence?

All I require is a simple "Yes" or "No". Can you do that?

You are confusing likelihood with frequency.

My chance of being MURDERED is essentially ZERO! Yet, murders are
FREQUENT and *common* occurrences!

I am *surrounded* by $20 bills. And, people carrying them. Yet,
I *rarely* encounter "loose" $20 bills on the sidewalk, in stores,
etc.

We have electrical storms pretty frequently. Yet, I have NEVER
encountered a person who was struck by lightning. It's a RARE event!

50,000 cars per day travel a half mile stretch of road a few blocks
from here. Some *small* fraction of those encounter a "red light".
An even smaller fraction of them encounter a "questionable" red
light (i.e., "MAYBE I can sneak through a long yellow"). Yet,
I can watch probably 50 people run red lights there in any given
24 hour period. That's 0.1%. FAR LESS THAN YOUR 9.2%!

YET, it is a COMMON OCCURRENCE! It happens frequently -- even if it
only happens some teeny-tiny fraction of the time that it *could* happen!

Why am I not surprised that you couldn't stay on topic? Now you're starting to yell and make comparisons that are so far off topic as to be as irrelevant as the statistics you brought up earlier.

Moving on...

On 10/2/2015 4:41 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Friday, October 2, 2015 at 6:34:39 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 10/2/2015 1:20 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Friday, October 2, 2015 at 3:04:44 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 10/2/2015 11:54 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Thursday, October 1, 2015 at 10:26:59 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 10/1/2015 5:36 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Thursday, October 1, 2015 at 3:47:16 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
You said it's a common practice for people to leave the
batteries out. I say it's not "common" in relation to how many
detectors there are installed across the globe.

Whether the batteries are left out for a night, a day or a year
before the fatal fires starts has nothing to do with the
commonality of the practice. How often they are left out as
compared how often they are not is all that counts when
determining how "common" the practice is.

From a 9/2015 NFPA report:

Smoke Alarm Power Sources Hardwired smoke alarms were present
in 48% of reported home fires with smoke alarms. Alarms
powered by battery only were present in in 46% of reported
home fires.

In reported home fires in which the fire was large enough to
activate the alarm, - Hardwired smoke alarms operated 94% of
the time. - Battery-powered smoke alarms operated in four out
of five (80%) fires.

Reasons that Smoke Alarms Did Not Operate when Present in
Large Enough Fires --------------------------^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
In fires in which the smoke alarms were present but did not
operate, - Almost half (46%) of the smoke alarms had missing
or disconnected batteries. Nuisance alarms were the leading
reason for disconnected smoke alarms. - Dead batteries caused
one-quarter (24%) of the smoke alarm failures. - Only 7% of
the failures were due to hardwired power source problems,
including disconnected smoke alarms, power outages, and power
shut-offs.

So, in response to your comment, below: "Common? Until I see
the numbers, I'll vote No." I vote *yes* (70% of the fires!)
-- unless you'd care to offer some OTHER numbers?

Right, in 70% of homes *in which the smoke alarms were present
but did not operate* dead or missing batteries was the cause. No
one denies that dead or missing batteries will cause a smoke
detector not to operate. The problem is (once again) that that
is not what we are discussing.

I'll try again: You said that the practice of leaving batteries
out after they are removed due to chirping is "common". I, once
again, say that when compared to all the cases where the
batteries are *not* left out, the practice is *not* common. The
*practice of leaving the batteries out* is not common. Does it
happen? Yes. Do bad things happen when someone does that? Yes.
Is it common? Not in the grand scheme of all detectors
everywhere.

Can you stick to that statement and tell me how you know that
the practice is common? Tell me how many times batteries are
left out vs. how many times they are replaced. Citing statistics
related to how many smoke detectors didn't operate due to
missing batteries (46%) does nothing to support your claim that
the practice of leaving batteries out is "common". All that does
is tell us that missing batteries is a common cause for smoke
detectors not to operate. Well, yeah. I think that's pretty
obvious.

It seems pretty obvious to me that the above statistic cites that
46% of those FIRES had smoke detectors with batteries "missing or
disconnected". Do you think the "smoke detector police" are going
to arbitrarily survey homes where NO FIRES HAVE BEEN REPORTED to
see if their smoke detectors have batteries in place? If a
battery is left out for a year (assume a battery normally *lasts*
a year, does that count as *one* event? Or, more than one?)

Thank you! You have finally made my point that the statistic you
cited, while true, does nothing to support your claim that leaving
batteries out is "common". That statistic is not relevant to this
discussion. It took us a while, but we're finally there.

No, you haven't defined "common"!

It is COMMON for people to run red lights! (sit at any intersection in
ANY city and you WILL see someone run a light!) It is COMMON for
people to be murdered with firearms (in practically any city)! (listen
to the news in any city and, chances are, today or yesterday *someone*
was murdered) It is COMMON for gunmen to go on rampages at schools,
malls, etc. (how many times does it have to NOT happen to be
considered a "rare" event)

If you look at the *probability* of any of these events happening,
they can be surprisingly LOW. But, that doesn't make them LESS
COMMON!

It is RARE for us to find evidence of life on other planets! It is
RARE for us to find $100 bills on the sidewalk in front of us! It is
RARE for long lost relatives to show up on doorsteps!

You seem to think "common" means "a majority of the time". That's not
what "common" means:

- of frequent occurrence; usual; familiar: - occurring or appearing
frequently : familiar a common sight - Occurring frequently or
habitually; usual: It is common for movies to last 90 minutes or more
- happening frequently, or existing in large amounts or numbers

etc.

You want "common" to mean: - the greater part or number; the number
larger than half the total (opposed to minority)

If that were the case, there would be no "common" names, "common"
foods, "common" practices, etc. as very few things occur in a
MAJORITY!

Put a NUMBER on your criteria. Or STFU.

Gee...you seem upset. Perhaps if you'd calm down, you could read what I
posted and grasp it.

Let me ask you a simple, straightforward question just to get us on the
same page:

If something happens 9.2% of the time, would you consider that to be a
common occurrence?

All I require is a simple "Yes" or "No". Can you do that?

You are confusing likelihood with frequency.

My chance of being MURDERED is essentially ZERO! Yet, murders are
FREQUENT and *common* occurrences!

I am *surrounded* by $20 bills. And, people carrying them. Yet, I
*rarely* encounter "loose" $20 bills on the sidewalk, in stores, etc.

We have electrical storms pretty frequently. Yet, I have NEVER
encountered a person who was struck by lightning. It's a RARE event!

50,000 cars per day travel a half mile stretch of road a few blocks from
here. Some *small* fraction of those encounter a "red light". An even
smaller fraction of them encounter a "questionable" red light (i.e.,
"MAYBE I can sneak through a long yellow"). Yet, I can watch probably 50
people run red lights there in any given 24 hour period. That's 0.1%.
FAR LESS THAN YOUR 9.2%!

YET, it is a COMMON OCCURRENCE! It happens frequently -- even if it only
happens some teeny-tiny fraction of the time that it *could* happen!

Why am I not surprised that you couldn't stay on topic? Now you're starting
to yell and make comparisons that are so far off topic as to be as
irrelevant as the statistics you brought up earlier.

(sigh) You truly don't get it, do you? A percentage is a *portion*;
a likelihood. It has nothing to do with a common-ness... a frequency...
which is a "per unit time" measurement.

My *chance* (likelihood) of being murdered (or, *anyone's* chance of
being murdered) is a probability. OTOH, the *frequency* of murders in
a community is a number of events per unit time. It is a separate and
independent metric from "probability".

A city with 100 million population may have a murder rate (likelihood,
probaility) that is effectively *zero* (0.0001%) yet have a murder EVERY
NIGHT on the evening news! It is a COMMON occurrence. It happens FREQUENTLY!

A city with 1000 population may have a murder rate that is much, much higher!
Maybe *1* percent (i.e., 10,000 times MORE LIKELY), yet murders happen
*monthly* rather than *daily*. It is far less COMMON. Yet, living in
that city is much RISKIER than the first city! You are 10,000 times
more likely to be one of those monthly victims than one of the DAILY
victims in the first location!

If you're thinking in terms of percentages, you're on entirely the
wrong track! Percentages have no concept of time -- of FREQUENCY!
("per unit time")

On Fri, 2 Oct 2015 16:41:12 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Friday, October 2, 2015 at 6:34:39 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 10/2/2015 1:20 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Friday, October 2, 2015 at 3:04:44 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 10/2/2015 11:54 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Thursday, October 1, 2015 at 10:26:59 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 10/1/2015 5:36 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Thursday, October 1, 2015 at 3:47:16 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
You said it's a common practice for people to leave the batteries out. I say
it's not "common" in relation to how many detectors there are installed across
the globe.

Whether the batteries are left out for a night, a day or a year before the
fatal fires starts has nothing to do with the commonality of the practice.
How often they are left out as compared how often they are not is all that
counts when determining how "common" the practice is.

From a 9/2015 NFPA report:

Smoke Alarm Power Sources
Hardwired smoke alarms were present in 48% of reported home fires with smoke
alarms. Alarms powered by battery only were present in in 46% of reported home
fires.

In reported home fires in which the fire was large enough to activate the
alarm,
- Hardwired smoke alarms operated 94% of the time.
- Battery-powered smoke alarms operated in four out of five (80%) fires.

Reasons that Smoke Alarms Did Not Operate when Present in Large Enough Fires
--------------------------^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
In fires in which the smoke alarms were present but did not operate,
- Almost half (46%) of the smoke alarms had missing or disconnected
batteries. Nuisance alarms were the leading reason for disconnected
smoke alarms.
- Dead batteries caused one-quarter (24%) of the smoke alarm failures.
- Only 7% of the failures were due to hardwired power source problems,
including disconnected smoke alarms, power outages, and power shut-offs.

So, in response to your comment, below:
"Common? Until I see the numbers, I'll vote No."
I vote *yes* (70% of the fires!) -- unless you'd care to offer some OTHER
numbers?

Right, in 70% of homes *in which the smoke alarms were present but did not
operate* dead or missing batteries was the cause. No one denies that dead
or missing batteries will cause a smoke detector not to operate. The problem
is (once again) that that is not what we are discussing.

I'll try again: You said that the practice of leaving batteries out after
they are removed due to chirping is "common". I, once again, say that when
compared to all the cases where the batteries are *not* left out, the
practice is *not* common. The *practice of leaving the batteries out* is not
common. Does it happen? Yes. Do bad things happen when someone does that? Yes.
Is it common? Not in the grand scheme of all detectors everywhere.

Can you stick to that statement and tell me how you know that the practice is
common? Tell me how many times batteries are left out vs. how many times
they are replaced. Citing statistics related to how many smoke
detectors didn't operate due to missing batteries (46%) does nothing to
support your claim that the practice of leaving batteries out is "common". All
that does is tell us that missing batteries is a common cause for smoke
detectors not to operate. Well, yeah. I think that's pretty obvious.

It seems pretty obvious to me that the above statistic cites that 46% of those
FIRES had smoke detectors with batteries "missing or disconnected". Do you
think the "smoke detector police" are going to arbitrarily survey homes
where NO FIRES HAVE BEEN REPORTED to see if their smoke detectors have
batteries in place? If a battery is left out for a year (assume a battery
normally *lasts* a year, does that count as *one* event? Or, more than one?)

Thank you! You have finally made my point that the statistic you cited,
while true, does nothing to support your claim that leaving batteries
out is "common". That statistic is not relevant to this discussion. It
took us a while, but we're finally there.

No, you haven't defined "common"!

It is COMMON for people to run red lights!
(sit at any intersection in ANY city and you WILL see someone run a light!)
It is COMMON for people to be murdered with firearms (in practically any city)!
(listen to the news in any city and, chances are, today or yesterday
*someone* was murdered)
It is COMMON for gunmen to go on rampages at schools, malls, etc.
(how many times does it have to NOT happen to be considered a "rare" event)

If you look at the *probability* of any of these events happening, they
can be surprisingly LOW. But, that doesn't make them LESS COMMON!

It is RARE for us to find evidence of life on other planets!
It is RARE for us to find $100 bills on the sidewalk in front of us!
It is RARE for long lost relatives to show up on doorsteps!

You seem to think "common" means "a majority of the time". That's
not what "common" means:

- of frequent occurrence; usual; familiar:
- occurring or appearing frequently : familiar a common sight
- Occurring frequently or habitually; usual: It is common for movies
to last 90 minutes or more
- happening frequently, or existing in large amounts or numbers

etc.

You want "common" to mean:
- the greater part or number; the number larger than half the total
(opposed to minority)

If that were the case, there would be no "common" names, "common"
foods, "common" practices, etc. as very few things occur in a MAJORITY!

Put a NUMBER on your criteria. Or STFU.

Gee...you seem upset. Perhaps if you'd calm down, you could read what I
posted and grasp it.

Let me ask you a simple, straightforward question just to get us on the
same page:

If something happens 9.2% of the time, would you consider that to be
a common occurrence?

All I require is a simple "Yes" or "No". Can you do that?

You are confusing likelihood with frequency.

My chance of being MURDERED is essentially ZERO! Yet, murders are
FREQUENT and *common* occurrences!

I am *surrounded* by $20 bills. And, people carrying them. Yet,
I *rarely* encounter "loose" $20 bills on the sidewalk, in stores,
etc.

We have electrical storms pretty frequently. Yet, I have NEVER
encountered a person who was struck by lightning. It's a RARE event!

50,000 cars per day travel a half mile stretch of road a few blocks
from here. Some *small* fraction of those encounter a "red light".
An even smaller fraction of them encounter a "questionable" red
light (i.e., "MAYBE I can sneak through a long yellow"). Yet,
I can watch probably 50 people run red lights there in any given
24 hour period. That's 0.1%. FAR LESS THAN YOUR 9.2%!

YET, it is a COMMON OCCURRENCE! It happens frequently -- even if it
only happens some teeny-tiny fraction of the time that it *could* happen!

Why am I not surprised that you couldn't stay on topic? Now you're starting to yell and make comparisons that are so far off topic as to be as irrelevant as the statistics you brought up earlier.

Moving on...
And what does all this drivel have to do with inspecting furnace
filters?????

On 10/2/2015 5:05 PM, wrote:

And what does all this drivel have to do with inspecting furnace
filters?????

If you'd read up-thread, you'd see it a consequence of debating the
replacement schedule for said filters...

On Fri, 02 Oct 2015 17:27:35 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

On 10/2/2015 5:05 PM, wrote:

And what does all this drivel have to do with inspecting furnace
filters?????

If you'd read up-thread, you'd see it a consequence of debating the
replacement schedule for said filters...

I don't replace mine. I have a washable electrostatic filter (not a
powered unit) that fits in place of the 1 inch pleated filter. I wash
it every couple months, shake it dry, and put it back in place.
On the old furnace I had the replaceable depth filters - I used a
filterfresh spray on them that made them sticky so they caught more of
the fine stuff like polen etc.
I had electrical discharge electrostatics in my previous house - they
were MISERABLE to clean - they'd get blacker than black - pretty well
needed a dishwasher dedicated to cleaning them

On Friday, October 2, 2015 at 7:53:49 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:


(sigh) You truly don't get it, do you? A percentage is a *portion*;
a likelihood. It has nothing to do with a common-ness... a frequency...
which is a "per unit time" measurement.

Oh, I get now. You can use your percentage of 70% to Vote "Yes" on commonness,
but I can't use 9.2% to vote "No".

Does this sound familiar?

You: So, in response to your comment, below:
Me: "Common? Until I see the numbers, I'll vote No."
You: I vote *yes* (70% of the fires!) -- unless you'd care to offer
some OTHER numbers?

Like I said, but neglected to do...moving on.

On 10/2/2015 6:58 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Friday, October 2, 2015 at 7:53:49 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:


(sigh) You truly don't get it, do you? A percentage is a *portion*;
a likelihood. It has nothing to do with a common-ness... a frequency...
which is a "per unit time" measurement.

Oh, I get now. You can use your percentage of 70% to Vote "Yes" on commonness,
but I can't use 9.2% to vote "No".

The percentages pertain to ACTUAL FIRES! You can count the number of ACTUAL
FIRES in any particular time period. From that (events per unit time) you get
FREQUENCY OF OCCURRENCE. Has nothing to do with how LIKELY a home is to
catch fire! I'm looking at a PORTION (percentage) of a FREQUENCY. So,
it's a measure of "common-ness".

That's the only NUMBER you are going to get -- there are no "smoke detector
police" who will check every residence to see *if* they have a detector and
*if* it has batteries and *if* the batteries are operational. *But*, the
cited report indicates the portion of those ACTUAL FIRES that had battery
powered smoke detectors that DID NOT OPERATE (20% of those fires). Of
these ACTUAL FIRES in which BATTERY POWERED DETECTORS failed to operate,
70% of those were the result of missing, disconnected or dead batteries.

Do the math and you can see that this isn't a small number -- IN A GIVEN
PERIOD OF TIME (ha nothing to do with the likelihood of a fire!).
As such, it is COMMON.

Chance of winning the lottery is essentially ZERO -- 0%! Yet, someone ALWAYS
seems to win! So, winning is COMMON -- but not LIKELY!

Does this sound familiar?

You: So, in response to your comment, below:
Me: "Common? Until I see the numbers, I'll vote No."
You: I vote *yes* (70% of the fires!) -- unless you'd care to offer
some OTHER numbers?

Like I said, but neglected to do...moving on.

This is why so many folks are suckers for gaming machines; failing to
understand what the numbers *mean* and reading more (or less!) into them than
the actual math implies!

On 10/2/2015 6:56 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 02 Oct 2015 17:27:35 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

On 10/2/2015 5:05 PM, wrote:

And what does all this drivel have to do with inspecting furnace
filters?????

If you'd read up-thread, you'd see it a consequence of debating the
replacement schedule for said filters...

I don't replace mine. I have a washable electrostatic filter (not a
powered unit) that fits in place of the 1 inch pleated filter. I wash
it every couple months, shake it dry, and put it back in place.

We simply replace ours every month -- toss the old unit in the trash.
In the summer, it's filtering stuff running through the air conditioner's
A-coil; in the winter, it filters stuff that is running through the
furnace's heat exchanger. Roughly the same total volume of air in each case.

The swamp cooler makes things worse when we opt to run it as it brings
outside air directly into the house (through a very porous "wet" filter).
But, it is impractical to filter as it moves many thousands of cubic feet
per minute.

On the old furnace I had the replaceable depth filters - I used a
filterfresh spray on them that made them sticky so they caught more of
the fine stuff like polen etc.
I had electrical discharge electrostatics in my previous house - they
were MISERABLE to clean - they'd get blacker than black - pretty well
needed a dishwasher dedicated to cleaning them

I've seen homes (smokers) with electrostatic air filtration that had
"smoke-plated" walls (remove the picture frames from the walls and you can
see where they *were*.

On Fri, 02 Oct 2015 19:26:39 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

On 10/2/2015 6:56 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 02 Oct 2015 17:27:35 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

On 10/2/2015 5:05 PM, wrote:

And what does all this drivel have to do with inspecting furnace
filters?????

If you'd read up-thread, you'd see it a consequence of debating the
replacement schedule for said filters...

I don't replace mine. I have a washable electrostatic filter (not a
powered unit) that fits in place of the 1 inch pleated filter. I wash
it every couple months, shake it dry, and put it back in place.

We simply replace ours every month -- toss the old unit in the trash.
In the summer, it's filtering stuff running through the air conditioner's
A-coil; in the winter, it filters stuff that is running through the
furnace's heat exchanger. Roughly the same total volume of air in each case.

We run the fan on low all year,the AC only on the hottest most humid
days ( a couple weeks every summer). The AC runs the fan about half
again as fast as theheat cycle.

The swamp cooler makes things worse when we opt to run it as it brings
outside air directly into the house (through a very porous "wet" filter).
But, it is impractical to filter as it moves many thousands of cubic feet
per minute.

On the old furnace I had the replaceable depth filters - I used a
filterfresh spray on them that made them sticky so they caught more of
the fine stuff like polen etc.
I had electrical discharge electrostatics in my previous house - they
were MISERABLE to clean - they'd get blacker than black - pretty well
needed a dishwasher dedicated to cleaning them

I've seen homes (smokers) with electrostatic air filtration that had
"smoke-plated" walls (remove the picture frames from the walls and you can
see where they *were*.

On 10/2/2015 8:25 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 02 Oct 2015 19:26:39 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

On 10/2/2015 6:56 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 02 Oct 2015 17:27:35 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

On 10/2/2015 5:05 PM, wrote:

And what does all this drivel have to do with inspecting furnace
filters?????

If you'd read up-thread, you'd see it a consequence of debating the
replacement schedule for said filters...

I don't replace mine. I have a washable electrostatic filter (not a
powered unit) that fits in place of the 1 inch pleated filter. I wash
it every couple months, shake it dry, and put it back in place.

We simply replace ours every month -- toss the old unit in the trash.
In the summer, it's filtering stuff running through the air conditioner's
A-coil; in the winter, it filters stuff that is running through the
furnace's heat exchanger. Roughly the same total volume of air in each case.

We run the fan on low all year,the AC only on the hottest most humid
days ( a couple weeks every summer). The AC runs the fan about half
again as fast as theheat cycle.

Our cooling season starts in April and ends in October -- we're still seeing
100F temperatures. The cooler is an excellent device during the dry months
(April, May, June, October, November) but brings lots of "dirt" into the
house (as there is often airborn dirt: google "haboob") as well as pollen
(we have essentially a continuous growing season). When using the cooler,
its fan essentially runs continuously (low vs. high, maintained automatically
by the thermostat) as turning the fan *off* allows hot air to blow *into*
the house (you need to leave windows cracked open for the cooler to function
as it works by *replacing* the air in the house, continuously). The cooler
keeps "positive pressure" in the house to prevent hot, dry air from outside
infiltrating through those open windows.

In recent years, we have opted to just run the ACbrrr continuously instead
of having to deal with *removing* the humidity that the cooler injects into
the building (e.g., doors swell, bath towels "never dry", carpet feels
wet, etc.).

During the rainy parts of winter, the ACbrrr comes on, again, despite
moderate temperatures -- mainly for dehumidification.

On Thursday, October 1, 2015 at 11:40:49 AM UTC-5, Don Y wrote:

Excessive chatter deleted.

On 10/1/2015 2:54 AM, ItsJoanNotJoann wrote:

The smoke alarms 'tweets' when the batteries needs to be changed.

We don't wait until it starts it's INCESSANT chirping. Do you
want to listen to it for an hour, day, week before you get around
to replacing the battery? Easier to be proactive and replace it
before it complains.

I change it immediately upon hearing it tweet.

We don't keep "spare batteries" (for anything) on hand.

Well, I do.

I suspect
this is true of many folks as it seems common for people to UNPLUG
their smoke detectors when they start chirping. Then, forget
to buy the battery and end up operating with no smoke detectors
in place (at least, we hear of homes lost to fire wherein the
smoke detectors had no batteries in them -- this seems like a
logical explanation of what transpired).

I don't suspect what other people do with their smoke alarms.
Not my business.

More chatter deleted.

Experience has taught us that *this* is what works best for us.
We don't "discover" the filter needs to be replaced and then
"discover" we don't have a replacement on hand. Instead, we
treat it like any other "scheduled maintenance" item and
replace it on *our* schedule (instead of *its* schedule) so
we always know when we will *need* replacements.

I don't "discover" the filter needs to be changed. Remember,
I said I write it on my calendar. Also, I DO keep spare
filters on hand, just like I keep spare batteries on hand
for the smoke detectors and those batteries are also used
for clocks and remotes.

On 10/2/2015 7:41 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Friday, October 2, 2015 at 6:34:39 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:

50,000 cars per day travel a half mile stretch of road a few blocks
from here. Some *small* fraction of those encounter a "red light".
An even smaller fraction of them encounter a "questionable" red
light (i.e., "MAYBE I can sneak through a long yellow"). Yet,
I can watch probably 50 people run red lights there in any given
24 hour period. That's 0.1%. FAR LESS THAN YOUR 9.2%!

YET, it is a COMMON OCCURRENCE! It happens frequently -- even if it
only happens some teeny-tiny fraction of the time that it *could* happen!

Why am I not surprised that you couldn't stay on topic? Now you're starting to yell and make comparisons that are so far off topic as to be as irrelevant as the statistics you brought up earlier.

Moving on...


As I've been saying, it's a judgement call. I like to
replace them when it looks like the dust and dirt might
be slowing the air flow.

-
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

On 10/3/2015 2:42 AM, ItsJoanNotJoann wrote:
I don't "discover" the filter needs to be changed. Remember,
I said I write it on my calendar. Also, I DO keep spare
filters on hand, just like I keep spare batteries on hand
for the smoke detectors and those batteries are also used
for clocks and remotes.


Cuts down on trips to the store, to stay a bit
stocked up.

-
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

On 10/3/2015 7:22 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 10/3/2015 2:42 AM, ItsJoanNotJoann wrote:
I don't "discover" the filter needs to be changed. Remember,
I said I write it on my calendar. Also, I DO keep spare
filters on hand, just like I keep spare batteries on hand
for the smoke detectors and those batteries are also used
for clocks and remotes.


Cuts down on trips to the store, to stay a bit
stocked up.

-
.
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
. www.lds.org
.
.
The biggest problem with staying stocked up on batteries is
that it is getting harder and harder to find a pack of
batteries that qualifies, at least to me, as 'that will
be enough to keep me going for a little while'. The packs
are getting bigger and bigger.

Bill

On 10/2/2015 11:42 PM, ItsJoanNotJoann wrote:

Experience has taught us that *this* is what works best for us.
We don't "discover" the filter needs to be replaced and then
"discover" we don't have a replacement on hand. Instead, we
treat it like any other "scheduled maintenance" item and
replace it on *our* schedule (instead of *its* schedule) so
we always know when we will *need* replacements.

I don't "discover" the filter needs to be changed. Remember,
I said I write it on my calendar.

We don't need to "write it" -- just remember to replace it the first
of *every* month.

Also, I DO keep spare
filters on hand, just like I keep spare batteries on hand
for the smoke detectors and those batteries are also used
for clocks and remotes.

Our clocks and remotes use AA or AAA batteries. As do many of
our flashlights, "digital" magnifying glasses, cordless keyboards
and mice, etc. So, those are all outfitted with rechargeable
NiMH cells while a set of 4 of these remains in a charger at all
times (if any device's "batteries" falter, throw *those* in the
charger while taking the ones *from* the charger for the device
in question). If more than 4 cells fail at the same time,
we'll be inconvenienced for an hour or so while the charger
tops off those "other" cells. Four "extra" cells to support
all those devices (instead of a package of 20 "spare" alkalines.

Everything else uses some sort of "specific" rechargeable battery:
the PDAs, cordless phone, cell phone, gyromouse, UPS's, iPods,
BT earpieces, electric wheelbarrow, cordless vacuum, cameras,
the oversized flashlights with built-in chargers and various
scientific instruments.

[We have a LOT of battery powered devices, here. With batteries
ranging in size from fingertip to "car battery" and costs from
pennies to hundreds of dollars. Hence the BIG appeal of *rechargeable*]

This leaves the 2 maglites (3xD cells), the coleman floodlight
(8xD), the "CMOS batteries" in the computers and keyfobs, and the
smoke/CO detectors (9V).

With three of these flashlights (not counting the ones that are
miniature suns), one can always treat two as "spares" in the event
that the batteries in one die -- off to the store at our leisure!
Computers and key fob batteries fail so very infrequently and with a
significant warning so picking up another "coin cell" is no big deal.

That leaves the smoke/CO detectors -- which have the annoying trait
of "complaining"/annoying *when* they die. Simply don't *let* them die!

On 10/3/2015 6:11 AM, Bill Gill wrote:

Cuts down on trips to the store, to stay a bit
stocked up.

The biggest problem with staying stocked up on batteries is
that it is getting harder and harder to find a pack of
batteries that qualifies, at least to me, as 'that will
be enough to keep me going for a little while'. The packs
are getting bigger and bigger.

Planning on replacing particular batteries at particular times
(instead of letting the device complain when *it* wants the battery
to be replaced) means you can buy what you need and *when* you
will need it. Instead of finding a place to *store* (isn't that
what "stores" do?) those additional cells!

Costco has some eneloops going on sale...

On Saturday, October 3, 2015 at 9:11:46 AM UTC-4, Bill Gill wrote:
On 10/3/2015 7:22 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 10/3/2015 2:42 AM, ItsJoanNotJoann wrote:
I don't "discover" the filter needs to be changed. Remember,
I said I write it on my calendar. Also, I DO keep spare
filters on hand, just like I keep spare batteries on hand
for the smoke detectors and those batteries are also used
for clocks and remotes.


Cuts down on trips to the store, to stay a bit
stocked up.

-
.
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
. www.lds.org
.
.
The biggest problem with staying stocked up on batteries is
that it is getting harder and harder to find a pack of
batteries that qualifies, at least to me, as 'that will
be enough to keep me going for a little while'. The packs
are getting bigger and bigger.

Bill

Color me confused.

You can buy batteries in packs of as little as 2 or 4, all the way up to
the bulk packs or 24, 36+ with more options in between.

Is there no combination of those sizes that will fit your needs?

On 10/3/2015 9:45 AM, Don Y wrote:
On 10/3/2015 6:11 AM, Bill Gill wrote:

Cuts down on trips to the store, to stay a bit
stocked up.

The biggest problem with staying stocked up on batteries is
that it is getting harder and harder to find a pack of
batteries that qualifies, at least to me, as 'that will
be enough to keep me going for a little while'. The packs
are getting bigger and bigger.

Planning on replacing particular batteries at particular times
(instead of letting the device complain when *it* wants the battery
to be replaced) means you can buy what you need and *when* you
will need it. Instead of finding a place to *store* (isn't that
what "stores" do?) those additional cells!

Costco has some eneloops going on sale...

what I am talking about is the fact that the packages they
come in are growing. It used to be you could buy packs of
2 AA cells. Then it went to 4, not you are lucky to find a
pack of 8. I prefer to keep enough on hand replace the
batteries in one remote, and get more when I run that bunch
down.

Bill

On 10/3/2015 10:02 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Saturday, October 3, 2015 at 9:11:46 AM UTC-4, Bill Gill wrote:
On 10/3/2015 7:22 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 10/3/2015 2:42 AM, ItsJoanNotJoann wrote:
I don't "discover" the filter needs to be changed. Remember,
I said I write it on my calendar. Also, I DO keep spare
filters on hand, just like I keep spare batteries on hand
for the smoke detectors and those batteries are also used
for clocks and remotes.


Cuts down on trips to the store, to stay a bit
stocked up.

-
.
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
. www.lds.org
.
.
The biggest problem with staying stocked up on batteries is
that it is getting harder and harder to find a pack of
batteries that qualifies, at least to me, as 'that will
be enough to keep me going for a little while'. The packs
are getting bigger and bigger.

Bill

Color me confused.

You can buy batteries in packs of as little as 2 or 4, all the way up to
the bulk packs or 24, 36+ with more options in between.

Is there no combination of those sizes that will fit your needs?

Have you been shopping for batteries lately. Where I have been
buying them, Walmart, Target, etc. They don't have the 2 and
4 packs anymore.

Bill

On Sat, 03 Oct 2015 07:45:56 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

On 10/3/2015 6:11 AM, Bill Gill wrote:

Cuts down on trips to the store, to stay a bit
stocked up.

The biggest problem with staying stocked up on batteries is
that it is getting harder and harder to find a pack of
batteries that qualifies, at least to me, as 'that will
be enough to keep me going for a little while'. The packs
are getting bigger and bigger.

Planning on replacing particular batteries at particular times
(instead of letting the device complain when *it* wants the battery
to be replaced) means you can buy what you need and *when* you
will need it. Instead of finding a place to *store* (isn't that
what "stores" do?) those additional cells!

Costco has some eneloops going on sale...

What helps is eliminating D and C cells. I don't use my D cell
Maglites any more, and probably will plain throw them away soon.
I use AA and AAA for all my flashlights. LED. PC keyboards, mice,
remotes use the same.
I use some remaining Eneloops, and Sony NiMH, with 2 Sony chargers.
One loaded with AA, the other AAA.
Still have to pick up some buttons and 9v occasionally.
But I resist buying anything using other than AA or AAA.

On 10/3/2015 10:02 AM, Bill Gill wrote:

what I am talking about is the fact that the packages they
come in are growing. It used to be you could buy packs of
2 AA cells. Then it went to 4, not you are lucky to find a
pack of 8. I prefer to keep enough on hand replace the
batteries in one remote, and get more when I run that bunch
down.

Yes. Even if you *can* find a "small package" that isn't
"stale" -- because no one seems to want to buy in small lots
(I recall Leno joking that Costco is now selling caskets!
But, you've got to buy *6*...) -- you end up having to buy
the tiny packages at places that are outrageously priced.
Like "the qwikie mart", a *clothing* store, etc.

So, why buy 2 when you can buy 12? Ans: cuz then you have
to *store* 12 -- and, hope they actually work when/if you need
them ("Gee, I *thought* I bought some of these a while ago...
where did I *put* them?")

The AA/AAA rechargeables are less of a problem for us. We have
one of those tiny chargers that holds *just* four cells and
hangs directly off the electric outlet. So, we know exactly
where our "spares" are stored.

I have bigger/fancier chargers that will charge 8 D's, AA's, AAA's
9V, etc. But, we have so few things that use anything *other* than
AA and AAA that its foolish to purchase those sizes -- and leave
them sitting on/in/near a charger for the year or so it might take
for that *one* device to need new batteries!

[The AA/AAA see lots of turnover because *something* always needs
new AA/AAA batteries!]

On 10/3/2015 10:13 AM, Vic Smith wrote:
On Sat, 03 Oct 2015 07:45:56 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

On 10/3/2015 6:11 AM, Bill Gill wrote:

Cuts down on trips to the store, to stay a bit
stocked up.

The biggest problem with staying stocked up on batteries is
that it is getting harder and harder to find a pack of
batteries that qualifies, at least to me, as 'that will
be enough to keep me going for a little while'. The packs
are getting bigger and bigger.

Planning on replacing particular batteries at particular times
(instead of letting the device complain when *it* wants the battery
to be replaced) means you can buy what you need and *when* you
will need it. Instead of finding a place to *store* (isn't that
what "stores" do?) those additional cells!

Costco has some eneloops going on sale...

What helps is eliminating D and C cells. I don't use my D cell
Maglites any more, and probably will plain throw them away soon.

For "around the house", they are pretty much overkill. There
are times when I'm trying to peer deep into the engine compartment
(lots of obstructions, shadows, etc.) that benefit from their brighter,
more focused light (than the little "penlight" or "cranklight"
flashlights).

If I need to look "down the road" or into a neighbor's back yard,
I'll drag out the Thor-X or something similarly sized.

But, to peer behind a computer (located UNDER my workbenches)
or under a bed, etc., a little 2 AA cell maglite works just fine.
Or, the three cell HD give(throw)aways.

Someone once claimed that AA and D cells were essentially the same
"internals", just different shells. I'd find that hard to believe
(unless it's akin to the "11 oz Coors" scam). One *hopes* the
big, heavy, bulky D cells are actually *giving* you something
for the extra size/weight!

I use AA and AAA for all my flashlights. LED. PC keyboards, mice,
remotes use the same.
I use some remaining Eneloops, and Sony NiMH, with 2 Sony chargers.
One loaded with AA, the other AAA.

Many of my devices have special "battery packs" (not counting the
obvious candidates: laptops, cameras, etc.). One of my "digital
magnifying glasses" uses the Sony "SmartLithium" modules that
they used in their cameras. Many other things just require me
to plug in a "charger" (wall wart) and the batteries charge
inside the unit.

Still have to pick up some buttons and 9v occasionally.
But I resist buying anything using other than AA or AAA.

Exactly. I can buy 2032's in quantity as there are so many
things that now use them; just keep them handy and "next time"
I'm inside a computer, pull the old battery and replace it.

It's amusing how 9v "transistor" batteries have fallen from
favor since the days of youth (in "transistor" radios). Aside
from the smoke/CO detectors, I can' think of anything that
uses them (so, why keep them on hand IN ANTICIPATION of a
failure?)

On Sat, 3 Oct 2015 08:20:58 -0400, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 10/2/2015 7:41 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Friday, October 2, 2015 at 6:34:39 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:

50,000 cars per day travel a half mile stretch of road a few blocks
from here. Some *small* fraction of those encounter a "red light".
An even smaller fraction of them encounter a "questionable" red
light (i.e., "MAYBE I can sneak through a long yellow"). Yet,
I can watch probably 50 people run red lights there in any given
24 hour period. That's 0.1%. FAR LESS THAN YOUR 9.2%!

YET, it is a COMMON OCCURRENCE! It happens frequently -- even if it
only happens some teeny-tiny fraction of the time that it *could* happen!

Why am I not surprised that you couldn't stay on topic? Now you're starting to yell and make comparisons that are so far off topic as to be as irrelevant as the statistics you brought up earlier.

Moving on...


As I've been saying, it's a judgement call. I like to
replace them when it looks like the dust and dirt might
be slowing the air flow.

-
.
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
. www.lds.org
.
.
If you want to play with toys, not guess, and always know when the
filter needs changing put a filter-check device on your furnace (like
is used on large engine air-filtes). It is just a differential
pressure guage - can be as simple as a manometer tube connected across
the filter - from the air return duct to the return plenum of the
furnace. A plugged filter will have a higher differential pressure
than a clean one.

On Sat, 3 Oct 2015 12:02:54 -0500, Bill Gill
wrote:

On 10/3/2015 9:45 AM, Don Y wrote:
On 10/3/2015 6:11 AM, Bill Gill wrote:

Cuts down on trips to the store, to stay a bit
stocked up.

The biggest problem with staying stocked up on batteries is
that it is getting harder and harder to find a pack of
batteries that qualifies, at least to me, as 'that will
be enough to keep me going for a little while'. The packs
are getting bigger and bigger.

Planning on replacing particular batteries at particular times
(instead of letting the device complain when *it* wants the battery
to be replaced) means you can buy what you need and *when* you
will need it. Instead of finding a place to *store* (isn't that
what "stores" do?) those additional cells!

Costco has some eneloops going on sale...

what I am talking about is the fact that the packages they
come in are growing. It used to be you could buy packs of
2 AA cells. Then it went to 4, not you are lucky to find a
pack of 8. I prefer to keep enough on hand replace the
batteries in one remote, and get more when I run that bunch
down.

Bill
I can still buy 2-packs of AA and AAA batteries - but they cost
almost the same as a 4 or 6 pack when they go on sale. The 2 packs are
never on sale. With batteries now having 10 year shelf life, buying 24
for $8 makes a lot more sense than buying 2 for $4.

On Sat, 03 Oct 2015 10:50:46 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

On 10/3/2015 10:13 AM, Vic Smith wrote:
On Sat, 03 Oct 2015 07:45:56 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

On 10/3/2015 6:11 AM, Bill Gill wrote:

Cuts down on trips to the store, to stay a bit
stocked up.

The biggest problem with staying stocked up on batteries is
that it is getting harder and harder to find a pack of
batteries that qualifies, at least to me, as 'that will
be enough to keep me going for a little while'. The packs
are getting bigger and bigger.

Planning on replacing particular batteries at particular times
(instead of letting the device complain when *it* wants the battery
to be replaced) means you can buy what you need and *when* you
will need it. Instead of finding a place to *store* (isn't that
what "stores" do?) those additional cells!

Costco has some eneloops going on sale...

What helps is eliminating D and C cells. I don't use my D cell
Maglites any more, and probably will plain throw them away soon.

For "around the house", they are pretty much overkill. There
are times when I'm trying to peer deep into the engine compartment
(lots of obstructions, shadows, etc.) that benefit from their brighter,
more focused light (than the little "penlight" or "cranklight"
flashlights).

If I need to look "down the road" or into a neighbor's back yard,
I'll drag out the Thor-X or something similarly sized.

But, to peer behind a computer (located UNDER my workbenches)
or under a bed, etc., a little 2 AA cell maglite works just fine.
Or, the three cell HD give(throw)aways.

Someone once claimed that AA and D cells were essentially the same
"internals", just different shells. I'd find that hard to believe
(unless it's akin to the "11 oz Coors" scam). One *hopes* the
big, heavy, bulky D cells are actually *giving* you something
for the extra size/weight!

I use AA and AAA for all my flashlights. LED. PC keyboards, mice,
remotes use the same.
I use some remaining Eneloops, and Sony NiMH, with 2 Sony chargers.
One loaded with AA, the other AAA.

Many of my devices have special "battery packs" (not counting the
obvious candidates: laptops, cameras, etc.). One of my "digital
magnifying glasses" uses the Sony "SmartLithium" modules that
they used in their cameras. Many other things just require me
to plug in a "charger" (wall wart) and the batteries charge
inside the unit.

Still have to pick up some buttons and 9v occasionally.
But I resist buying anything using other than AA or AAA.

Exactly. I can buy 2032's in quantity as there are so many
things that now use them; just keep them handy and "next time"
I'm inside a computer, pull the old battery and replace it.

It's amusing how 9v "transistor" batteries have fallen from
favor since the days of youth (in "transistor" radios). Aside
from the smoke/CO detectors, I can' think of anything that
uses them (so, why keep them on hand IN ANTICIPATION of a
failure?)
Blood glucose meters if you have a diabetic in the house, some good
multimeters, my old garage door opener, the transmitter for my radio
controlled "wire puller" (an old R/C truck that runs across suspended
ceilings pulling network cables). I generally have a six-pack of them
available - buy them when Canadian Tire has a good sale on, for less
than a normal 4-pack - and often less than a 2-pack.

wrote:
On Sat, 03 Oct 2015 10:50:46 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

On 10/3/2015 10:13 AM, Vic Smith wrote:
On Sat, 03 Oct 2015 07:45:56 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

On 10/3/2015 6:11 AM, Bill Gill wrote:

Cuts down on trips to the store, to stay a bit
stocked up.

The biggest problem with staying stocked up on batteries is
that it is getting harder and harder to find a pack of
batteries that qualifies, at least to me, as 'that will
be enough to keep me going for a little while'. The packs
are getting bigger and bigger.

Planning on replacing particular batteries at particular times
(instead of letting the device complain when *it* wants the battery
to be replaced) means you can buy what you need and *when* you
will need it. Instead of finding a place to *store* (isn't that
what "stores" do?) those additional cells!

Costco has some eneloops going on sale...

What helps is eliminating D and C cells. I don't use my D cell
Maglites any more, and probably will plain throw them away soon.

For "around the house", they are pretty much overkill. There
are times when I'm trying to peer deep into the engine compartment
(lots of obstructions, shadows, etc.) that benefit from their brighter,
more focused light (than the little "penlight" or "cranklight"
flashlights).

If I need to look "down the road" or into a neighbor's back yard,
I'll drag out the Thor-X or something similarly sized.

But, to peer behind a computer (located UNDER my workbenches)
or under a bed, etc., a little 2 AA cell maglite works just fine.
Or, the three cell HD give(throw)aways.

Someone once claimed that AA and D cells were essentially the same
"internals", just different shells. I'd find that hard to believe
(unless it's akin to the "11 oz Coors" scam). One *hopes* the
big, heavy, bulky D cells are actually *giving* you something
for the extra size/weight!

I use AA and AAA for all my flashlights. LED. PC keyboards, mice,
remotes use the same.
I use some remaining Eneloops, and Sony NiMH, with 2 Sony chargers.
One loaded with AA, the other AAA.

Many of my devices have special "battery packs" (not counting the
obvious candidates: laptops, cameras, etc.). One of my "digital
magnifying glasses" uses the Sony "SmartLithium" modules that
they used in their cameras. Many other things just require me
to plug in a "charger" (wall wart) and the batteries charge
inside the unit.

Still have to pick up some buttons and 9v occasionally.
But I resist buying anything using other than AA or AAA.

Exactly. I can buy 2032's in quantity as there are so many
things that now use them; just keep them handy and "next time"
I'm inside a computer, pull the old battery and replace it.

It's amusing how 9v "transistor" batteries have fallen from
favor since the days of youth (in "transistor" radios). Aside
from the smoke/CO detectors, I can' think of anything that
uses them (so, why keep them on hand IN ANTICIPATION of a
failure?)
Blood glucose meters if you have a diabetic in the house, some good
multimeters, my old garage door opener, the transmitter for my radio
controlled "wire puller" (an old R/C truck that runs across suspended
ceilings pulling network cables). I generally have a six-pack of them
available - buy them when Canadian Tire has a good sale on, for less
than a normal 4-pack - and often less than a 2-pack.

Ditto here but I try to use Lithium equivalent as much as I can.
Last long time. Initial cost is high but at the end not really.
I have drawful of batteries of all sorts.

On Sat, 03 Oct 2015 10:50:46 -0700, Don Y
wrote:



Someone once claimed that AA and D cells were essentially the same
"internals", just different shells. I'd find that hard to believe
(unless it's akin to the "11 oz Coors" scam). One *hopes* the
big, heavy, bulky D cells are actually *giving* you something
for the extra size/weight!


They measure capacity in MaH. This is useful:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_battery_sizes

With LED bulbs I'm satisfied with AA life-span.


It's amusing how 9v "transistor" batteries have fallen from
favor since the days of youth (in "transistor" radios). Aside
from the smoke/CO detectors, I can' think of anything that
uses them (so, why keep them on hand IN ANTICIPATION of a
failure?)

I don't know why they still equip smoke detectors with 9v.
But when I buy some more I'll look for AA equipped.
I see they sell them.

On 10/3/2015 11:22 AM, wrote:

It's amusing how 9v "transistor" batteries have fallen from
favor since the days of youth (in "transistor" radios). Aside
from the smoke/CO detectors, I can' think of anything that
uses them (so, why keep them on hand IN ANTICIPATION of a
failure?)
Blood glucose meters if you have a diabetic in the house,

Most glucometers that I've seen are CR2032 or 2025. The trend
seems to be to make the meters smaller and smaller. Also,
they seem to be treated as largely disposable -- vendors wanting
to "hook" you on a new meter to get you "addicted" to THEIR
(highly profitable) test strips.

[One of the non-profits for which I've done volunteer work recycles
medical... "discards" (not actually "waste", just things that are
no longer "wanted" by hospitals, doctors, patients, etc. So, you
see a LOT of glucometers!]

some good multimeters,

My portable DMM's (venerable Simpson and disposable "1 digit" HD units)
have 9V batteries. The better (5 and 6 digit) DMM's are line powered.

my old garage door opener,

Ours used a tiny -- 1/2 AAAA? -- 12V! battery. Replaced exactly *once*
so the mate (two pack) is still in the refrigerator, somewhere

the transmitter for my radio
controlled "wire puller" (an old R/C truck that runs across suspended
ceilings pulling network cables). I generally have a six-pack of them
available - buy them when Canadian Tire has a good sale on, for less
than a normal 4-pack - and often less than a 2-pack.

I had a box of lithium 9V batteries -- in hermetically sealed pouches
(that smelled, internally, of alcohol or somesuch?) -- that I used
to replenish my meters. The HD units I simply discard when the
battery dies (or, when the displayed reading starts to look *too*
incorrect to put much faith/effort into.

On 10/3/2015 11:35 AM, Vic Smith wrote:
On Sat, 03 Oct 2015 10:50:46 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

Someone once claimed that AA and D cells were essentially the same
"internals", just different shells. I'd find that hard to believe
(unless it's akin to the "11 oz Coors" scam). One *hopes* the
big, heavy, bulky D cells are actually *giving* you something
for the extra size/weight!

They measure capacity in MaH. This is useful:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_battery_sizes

Yes, but *actual* capacity is all over the map! Like buying
a "bottle" of milk and discovering it really only holds a
quart -- even though it *looked* like it was gallon sized!

With LED bulbs I'm satisfied with AA life-span.

I think it depends on the device, the peak power drain and
the operating ("per use") lifetime.

E.g., our portable vacuum cleaner is good for a couple of
minutes of operation (batteries are old and don't hold a
strong charge). This is OK for us as we only use it when
we have "a few crumbs" to clean up -- and don't want to deal with
dragging out the REAL vacuum cleaner for such a small task.

A cordless soldering iron that I have is similar: uses lots of juice
but for just a few seconds at a time. Then, set it back in its
stand (which, amazingly!, is a CHARGER! : ).

OTOH, if I'm stringing network cables on the underside of my work
benches, I will typically use something like:

http://www.harborfreight.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/i/m/image_14142.jpg

sitting flat on the floor, pointing upwards to illuminate the
underside of the tables. After a while, the batteries (esp
if they are the original HF batteries) go dark. So, swap
them out (if rechargeable) with the spare set in the charger
for *next* time.

[crap! I've been meaning Harbor Freight and think I've been
saying "HD" -- instead of HF! : Apologies to Home Despot!]

It's amusing how 9v "transistor" batteries have fallen from
favor since the days of youth (in "transistor" radios). Aside
from the smoke/CO detectors, I can' think of anything that
uses them (so, why keep them on hand IN ANTICIPATION of a
failure?)

I don't know why they still equip smoke detectors with 9v.
But when I buy some more I'll look for AA equipped.
I see they sell them.

I think originally it was because the semiconductor "process"
wasn't as effective at lower voltages and power levels.
When making safety related things, change always draws attention
to you:

Atty: And why, sir, did you authorize the change from the
long standing, well proven, reliable design to this
NEW design? The design that was present in the home
of my client's LATE parents??

wrote in message
...
If you want to play with toys, not guess, and always know when the
filter needs changing put a filter-check device on your furnace (like
is used on large engine air-filtes). It is just a differential
pressure guage - can be as simple as a manometer tube connected across
the filter - from the air return duct to the return plenum of the
furnace. A plugged filter will have a higher differential pressure
than a clean one.

That is what we used at work on the large building air filters. They had a
motor on them so we could roll them up some when the pressure differential
reached a certain level. They were on a large roll at the bottom and the
takeup roll at the top.

There was a pickup tube on each side of the filter.
Some were gauges with alarm switches,and some were simple fluid indicators.

Vic Smith wrote:
On Sat, 03 Oct 2015 10:50:46 -0700, Don Y
wrote:



Someone once claimed that AA and D cells were essentially the same
"internals", just different shells. I'd find that hard to believe
(unless it's akin to the "11 oz Coors" scam). One *hopes* the
big, heavy, bulky D cells are actually *giving* you something
for the extra size/weight!


They measure capacity in MaH. This is useful:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_battery_sizes

With LED bulbs I'm satisfied with AA life-span.


It's amusing how 9v "transistor" batteries have fallen from
favor since the days of youth (in "transistor" radios). Aside
from the smoke/CO detectors, I can' think of anything that
uses them (so, why keep them on hand IN ANTICIPATION of a
failure?)

I don't know why they still equip smoke detectors with 9v.
But when I buy some more I'll look for AA equipped.
I see they sell them.

Our detectors battery is only back up during power failure.
Same with alarm clocks. Power failure is very rare in our
neighborhood. Longest was like 5 hours once years ago during ice
storm. This is there was one during severe thunderstorm, 20 mins.
I have one watch runs on solar and equipped with 3 radios for time
signal. Can receive and sync time in NA, EU and Asia.

"Don Y" wrote in message
...

Most glucometers that I've seen are CR2032 or 2025. The trend
seems to be to make the meters smaller and smaller. Also,
they seem to be treated as largely disposable -- vendors wanting
to "hook" you on a new meter to get you "addicted" to THEIR
(highly profitable) test strips.

[One of the non-profits for which I've done volunteer work recycles
medical... "discards" (not actually "waste", just things that are
no longer "wanted" by hospitals, doctors, patients, etc. So, you
see a LOT of glucometers!]

some good multimeters,

My portable DMM's (venerable Simpson and disposable "1 digit" HD units)
have 9V batteries. The better (5 and 6 digit) DMM's are line powered.


The blood meters are about like the printers. Almost give them away so you
have to buy the strips made just for them. Just as many razors are. Give
away the razor and charge a high price for the blades.

Sort of hard to carry around a line powered DMM. Outside of lab work there
is seldom any need for more than the 4 1/2 digits of the Fluke meters that
run on 9 volt batteries.

On 10/3/2015 12:31 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
"Don Y" wrote in message
...

Most glucometers that I've seen are CR2032 or 2025. The trend
seems to be to make the meters smaller and smaller. Also,
they seem to be treated as largely disposable -- vendors wanting
to "hook" you on a new meter to get you "addicted" to THEIR
(highly profitable) test strips.

[One of the non-profits for which I've done volunteer work recycles
medical... "discards" (not actually "waste", just things that are
no longer "wanted" by hospitals, doctors, patients, etc. So, you
see a LOT of glucometers!]

some good multimeters,

My portable DMM's (venerable Simpson and disposable "1 digit" HD units)
have 9V batteries. The better (5 and 6 digit) DMM's are line powered.

The blood meters are about like the printers. Almost give them away so you
have to buy the strips made just for them. Just as many razors are. Give
away the razor and charge a high price for the blades.

Exactly. "Toilet paper dispensers" :

Sort of hard to carry around a line powered DMM. Outside of lab work there
is seldom any need for more than the 4 1/2 digits of the Fluke meters that
run on 9 volt batteries.

I don't tend to do much design/debug work outside of my office so can
rely on almost everything being line powered. E.g., I pulled an LCD TV
into the living room last night to troubleshoot power supply (or
main board) issues. Need 120V in order to test the TV so I've got
that same 120V to power my DMM, DSO, etc.

I keep a HF DMM in the garage for the times when I suspect the battery in
one of the vehicles may be low or faltering. But, then, I'm really only
looking at how it *sags* when cranking and don't really care much about the
*actual* voltage that it is reporting. Probe battery terminals vs. battery
cables to see if a high resistance connection, etc.

Or, operating as a glorified continuity tester...

Ralph Mowery wrote:
"Don Y" wrote in message
...

Most glucometers that I've seen are CR2032 or 2025. The trend
seems to be to make the meters smaller and smaller. Also,
they seem to be treated as largely disposable -- vendors wanting
to "hook" you on a new meter to get you "addicted" to THEIR
(highly profitable) test strips.

[One of the non-profits for which I've done volunteer work recycles
medical... "discards" (not actually "waste", just things that are
no longer "wanted" by hospitals, doctors, patients, etc. So, you
see a LOT of glucometers!]

some good multimeters,

My portable DMM's (venerable Simpson and disposable "1 digit" HD units)
have 9V batteries. The better (5 and 6 digit) DMM's are line powered.


The blood meters are about like the printers. Almost give them away so you
have to buy the strips made just for them. Just as many razors are. Give
away the razor and charge a high price for the blades.

Sort of hard to carry around a line powered DMM. Outside of lab work there
is seldom any need for more than the 4 1/2 digits of the Fluke meters that
run on 9 volt batteries.

Reminds me of old VTVMs. I still have one around. It can read HF RF
rms with a probe.

On 10/3/2015 1:13 PM, Vic Smith wrote:

What helps is eliminating D and C cells. I don't use my D cell
Maglites any more, and probably will plain throw them away soon.

I'd offer to pay shipping, send em here.

But with the new Cree emitters, AA light
is a bright as the old Mag. And the D cell
three watt mags are excellent.

-
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

"Don Y" wrote in message
...

I don't tend to do much design/debug work outside of my office so can
rely on almost everything being line powered. E.g., I pulled an LCD TV
into the living room last night to troubleshoot power supply (or
main board) issues. Need 120V in order to test the TV so I've got
that same 120V to power my DMM, DSO, etc.

I keep a HF DMM in the garage for the times when I suspect the battery in
one of the vehicles may be low or faltering. But, then, I'm really only
looking at how it *sags* when cranking and don't really care much about
the
*actual* voltage that it is reporting. Probe battery terminals vs.
battery
cables to see if a high resistance connection, etc.

Or, operating as a glorified continuity tester...

I worked in a large plant and mainly used meters in the field. If they had
been line powered, I would have needed 50 to 100 feet of power cord.

I just got a HF DMM (free with purchase) a few weeks ago when the local
store opened. Checked it to about 30 volts of DC and 130 volts of AC
compaired with my Fluke meter. Most of the time the HF was within one
number of the last digit. Ohms were slightly off, but probably within spec.
As I did not need to, I did not try it, but there is one adjustment inside
the meter to calibrate it.

It surprises me how accurate the inexpensive stuff is from China. I bought
4 3 digit DC volt meters (just a circuit board with displays and wire leads)
for around $ 5 shipping included. Hooked all of them and a Fluke to a 0 -24
volt supply. All of them but one read the same thing. That was to a tenth
of a volt. The other was sometimes off by one on the last digit. It had an
adjustment, but did not try it as the meter was close enough for me.

On 10/3/2015 1:50 PM, Don Y wrote:

The biggest problem with staying stocked up on batteries is
that it is getting harder and harder to find a pack of
batteries that qualifies, at least to me, as 'that will
be enough to keep me going for a little while'. The packs
are getting bigger and bigger.

CY: Dollar tree has four packs of AA or AAA alkalines.
Three packs of C or D carbon zinc cells.


But, to peer behind a computer (located UNDER my workbenches)
or under a bed, etc., a little 2 AA cell maglite works just fine.
Or, the three cell HD give(throw)aways.

CY: Those free HD short black lights are amazing.


Someone once claimed that AA and D cells were essentially the same
"internals", just different shells. I'd find that hard to believe
(unless it's akin to the "11 oz Coors" scam). One *hopes* the
big, heavy, bulky D cells are actually *giving* you something
for the extra size/weight!

CY: That used to be the case for some rechargble
cells. Some C and D were 2500 mA hour, and were
probably upsized AA. Alkalines and carbon zincs
are ok with the bigger sizes.


Still have to pick up some buttons and 9v occasionally.
But I resist buying anything using other than AA or AAA.

CY: That's wisdom.


Exactly. I can buy 2032's in quantity as there are so many
things that now use them; just keep them handy and "next time"
I'm inside a computer, pull the old battery and replace it.

It's amusing how 9v "transistor" batteries have fallen from
favor since the days of youth (in "transistor" radios). Aside
from the smoke/CO detectors, I can't think of anything that
uses them (so, why keep them on hand IN ANTICIPATION of a
failure?)

CY: 9V transistor cells are used in some emergency
exit devices in stores. Also in the Comtek hearing
amplifier box I use at church. Also my UEI non contact
infrared thermometer. Also in Harbor Freight cheap
VOM. Other than that, nothing (smile).

-
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

On 10/3/2015 12:21 PM, Tony Hwang wrote:
Vic Smith wrote:
On Sat, 03 Oct 2015 10:50:46 -0700, Don Y
wrote:



Someone once claimed that AA and D cells were essentially the same
"internals", just different shells. I'd find that hard to believe
(unless it's akin to the "11 oz Coors" scam). One *hopes* the
big, heavy, bulky D cells are actually *giving* you something
for the extra size/weight!


They measure capacity in MaH. This is useful:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_battery_sizes

With LED bulbs I'm satisfied with AA life-span.


It's amusing how 9v "transistor" batteries have fallen from
favor since the days of youth (in "transistor" radios). Aside
from the smoke/CO detectors, I can' think of anything that
uses them (so, why keep them on hand IN ANTICIPATION of a
failure?)

I don't know why they still equip smoke detectors with 9v.
But when I buy some more I'll look for AA equipped.
I see they sell them.

Our detectors battery is only back up during power failure.

That's the new trend and, AFAICT, required in new construction.
But, battery is still tested while running on AC power. For
our (dual AC/DC) units:
If any form of battery failure is detected the red LED light
will flash and the unit will “chirp” one time, followed by the
warning message “LOW BATTERY”. This cycle will occur once every
minute, and will continue for at least seven days.
Yeah, I *really* want to listen to that if it happens in the middle
of the night! (not!)

Note that the detector can be temporarily silenced for *nuisance*
alarms ("Dinner will be served at the sound of the smoke detector!")
but not for the low battery reminder (I guess they don't consider it
a NUISANCE to babble "LOW BATTERY" every minute for 10,080 consecutive
minutes!)

Also, the detector *claims* it will conspire with its peers to adjust
its sensitivity -- again, presumably, to minimize spurious alarms.

But, when the battery quits, it will nag you EVEN though you have
AC mains powering the unit! (OhMiGosh! What if the power fails
while the battery is low??)

Same with alarm clocks. Power failure is very rare in our
neighborhood. Longest was like 5 hours once years ago during ice
storm. This is there was one during severe thunderstorm, 20 mins.

We had a distribution transformer for the neighborhood catch fire
which cost us most of a day. Another time, a cable fire in a vault
(our utilities are below grade) ate up a day while new cables
were "pulled".

I have one watch runs on solar and equipped with 3 radios for time signal. Can
receive and sync time in NA, EU and Asia.

I have a couple of crank-powered radios -- along withone that has a
large *mainspring* that will drive the generator mechanism for a
full 15 minutes! And, UPS's serve for short term backup power;
plug a few CFLs into a UPS and the neighbors wonder why *you*
(appear!) to have power but they *don't*! : The batteries
in the electric wheelbarrow will keep the house "lit up"
for close to a day!

A friend is dropping off a genset for me to "rescue". This will allow
us to keep the freezer in the garage operational during outages as
well as the furnace (in the event it is a winter outage). Can't
do much for the ACbrrrr during an outage...

Ralph Mowery wrote:
"Don Y" wrote in message
...

I don't tend to do much design/debug work outside of my office so can
rely on almost everything being line powered. E.g., I pulled an LCD TV
into the living room last night to troubleshoot power supply (or
main board) issues. Need 120V in order to test the TV so I've got
that same 120V to power my DMM, DSO, etc.

I keep a HF DMM in the garage for the times when I suspect the battery in
one of the vehicles may be low or faltering. But, then, I'm really only
looking at how it *sags* when cranking and don't really care much about
the
*actual* voltage that it is reporting. Probe battery terminals vs.
battery
cables to see if a high resistance connection, etc.

Or, operating as a glorified continuity tester...

I worked in a large plant and mainly used meters in the field. If they had
been line powered, I would have needed 50 to 100 feet of power cord.

I just got a HF DMM (free with purchase) a few weeks ago when the local
store opened. Checked it to about 30 volts of DC and 130 volts of AC
compaired with my Fluke meter. Most of the time the HF was within one
number of the last digit. Ohms were slightly off, but probably within spec.
As I did not need to, I did not try it, but there is one adjustment inside
the meter to calibrate it.

It surprises me how accurate the inexpensive stuff is from China. I bought
4 3 digit DC volt meters (just a circuit board with displays and wire leads)
for around $ 5 shipping included. Hooked all of them and a Fluke to a 0 -24
volt supply. All of them but one read the same thing. That was to a tenth
of a volt. The other was sometimes off by one on the last digit. It had an
adjustment, but did not try it as the meter was close enough for me.


When ICs are produced some flunks final QC test. They are not dead but
does not meet standard. Cheap meters have those flunked chips. Radio
shack sold many of those flunked stuffs for hobbyists. Problem with
those are hit and miss and unreliable. If you use one of this *******
chips in a timing critical circuits. The result is very annoying.