Went to add a structure to the studs and need to use screws to assemble
[no real way to pound nails in and pounding would damage existing
structure, so nails are OUT] BUT! vaguely remember some threads here
regarding using readily available 'sheet rock' screws causing failures in
a structure under load.

Thought I should ask the 'experts' here.

Can I use sheetrock screws if they are to be placed only in tension and
never in shear mode? Or, is using sheetrock screws totally stupid? Are
there readily available 'construction' screws from HD that are an all
around better choice?

Problem is that I've had good personal experience using sheetrock screws
in some other [albeit poorly assembled] construction [choice ofsheet-rock
screws was a matter of convenience and they actually held better than
nails]. The long term integrity of the structure didn't matter a great
deal. All the structures came under heavy wind load the nails failed due
to slight movement simply working the nails out. The screws themselves
remained intact, but sometimes they stripped out of their holes and the
structures failed, too.

However, during construction I did 'snap' a few screws off, reminding me
they are a bit brittle. It's just I envision 'construction' screws being
more 'rubbery' and less brittle.

Are screws simply screws and just go ahead? Is it all right to use
sheetrock screws for a bit of construction? [interior, will have some
loading.]

On Friday, 22 November 2013 10:08:16 UTC-5, Robert Macy wrote:
Went to add a structure to the studs and need to use screws to assemble
[no real way to pound nails in and pounding would damage existing
structure, so nails are OUT] BUT! vaguely remember some threads here
regarding using readily available 'sheet rock' screws causing failures in
a structure under load.

Thought I should ask the 'experts' here.

If you're bothering to ask, then yes, save the drywall screws for drywall. They're a hard metal, I guess to withstand the abrasion (and maybe corrosiveness?) of gypsum board, and (as you've found) correspondingly brittle. Drywall is a light-to-moderate, very static load, and mostly in the compressive direction. If you're putting up shelves or cabinets, you're looking at possibly very heavy loads, probably all in shear, plus vibration and occasional shock. Not what drywall screws were made for, even though we all have half-full boxes kicking around.

For load-bearing work, find a general-purpose mild-steel screw long enough to get an inch (or more, if you know there's no wires) into the stud. You can get decking and subfloor screws that work well; these countersink themselves in soft wood and plywood. If you're going through holes in metal brackets, then look for a round head, obviously. For electrical boxes, plumbing strapping, etc I keep a supply of #8 or #10 round-head screws around in 1/2" to 1". For shelf brackets or a cabinet rail I'd use something longer and I'd probably use washers, too.

Now lets see what the *experts* say ...

Chip C
Toronto

RobertMacy wrote:
Went to add a structure to the studs and need to use screws to
assemble [no real way to pound nails in and pounding would damage
existing structure, so nails are OUT]

I love my cheapo palm nailer for tight jobs. I just had to replace studs
alongside a bathtub, and this tool made it easy to nail the bottoms to the sill.
http://www.harborfreight.com/palm-nailer-60242.html

BUT! vaguely remember some
threads here regarding using readily available 'sheet rock' screws
causing failures in a structure under load.

Thought I should ask the 'experts' here.

Can I use sheetrock screws if they are to be placed only in tension
and never in shear mode? Or, is using sheetrock screws totally
stupid?

Use real wood screws. They need some metal inside of the threads. Look at a
drywal screw carefully - how mush actual metal is in the threaded area. Plus,
they are very brittle.

Also, friction is one of the least well understood phenomenon in the world. It takes less total work to zip a drywall screw in with a drywall gun spinning at 30,000 rpm than it does to wrist twist it in by hand or with a cordless drill turning slower. So, while it's not enough to be noticable, higher speeds will overcome friction better than slower speeds.

Deck screws where I live come with Robertson drive heads, and I find those vastly superior to Phillips or slot because you can apply way more torque to the screw head without the drive slipping or coming out of the screw head. Look around to see if you can buy Robertson drive deck screws where you live. In addition, a Robertson drive will jam into the screw head so that you can hold the screw upside down on your screw driver or cordless drill without the screw falling off. You can't do that with Phillips or slot.

RobertMacy writes:

Went to add a structure to the studs and need to use screws to
assemble [no real way to pound nails in and pounding would damage
existing structure, so nails are OUT] BUT! vaguely remember some
threads here regarding using readily available 'sheet rock' screws
causing failures in a structure under load.

Thought I should ask the 'experts' here.

I used deck screws to put together a fence which was partially
demolished by Sandy.

None of the screws broke. A few were pulled out, but mostly
the lumber broke.

So, I think you'll be fine with deck screws.

--
Dan Espen

Went to add a structure to the studs and need to use screws to assemble
[no real way to pound nails in and pounding would damage existing
structure, so nails are OUT] BUT! vaguely remember some threads here
regarding using readily available 'sheet rock' screws causing failures in
a structure under load.

Thought I should ask the 'experts' here.

Can I use sheetrock screws if they are to be placed only in tension and
never in shear mode? Or, is using sheetrock screws totally stupid? Are
there readily available 'construction' screws from HD that are an all
around better choice?

Problem is that I've had good personal experience using sheetrock screws
in some other [albeit poorly assembled] construction [choice ofsheet-rock
screws was a matter of convenience and they actually held better than
nails]. The long term integrity of the structure didn't matter a great
deal. All the structures came under heavy wind load the nails failed due
to slight movement simply working the nails out. The screws themselves
remained intact, but sometimes they stripped out of their holes and the
structures failed, too.

However, during construction I did 'snap' a few screws off, reminding me
they are a bit brittle. It's just I envision 'construction' screws being
more 'rubbery' and less brittle.

Are screws simply screws and just go ahead? Is it all right to use
sheetrock screws for a bit of construction? [interior, will have some
loading.]


*I had a chat with a local building inspector about this several months ago.
He said drywall screws are only to be used for drywall. Regular wood screws
don't qualify for structural connections. Deck screws are for holding down
boards. He told me that structural screws are acceptable as a substitute for
nails. You could try calling your building inspector to see what is
acceptable.

Simpson StrongTie makes structural screws of which Home Depot does stock
some. They also have other structural screws from other manufacturers. You
can also use some structural connectors to make things really strong. Home
Depot carry's the screws for fastening the connectors as well.

http://www.strongtie.com/products/co...ource=fastenhp

http://www.homedepot.com/s/structural+screws?NCNI-5

On Fri, 22 Nov 2013 08:08:16 -0700, RobertMacy
wrote:

Sheet rock screws sheet rock

Wood screws wood

"RobertMacy" wrote in message
newsp.w6yhn2rc2cx0wh@ajm

Are screws simply screws and just go ahead? Is it all
right to use sheetrock screws for a bit of construction?

Wood screws are readily available...McFeeley's has about anything you could
ever want. Even HD/Lowes has a fair amount. Don't know if HD/Lowes carries
square drive wood screws or not but that is way preferable to Phillips.

Besides tending toward brittleness, there are a couple other things about DW
screws that tend to disqualify them. First of all, they are often #7 shank;
for what you are doing I'd want #10, #8 minimally. Secondly is the head
shape; this isn't a biggie but DW screws have a "bugle" head...concave on
the under side. That is great for DW, less so for wood as there is less
bearing surface. As I said, not a biggie especially for soft wood and I
doubt you'll be counter sinking anyway.



--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

"RobertMacy" wrote in message
newsp.w6yhn2rc2cx0wh@ajm

Are screws simply screws and just go ahead? Is it all
right to use sheetrock screws for a bit of construction?

Wood screws are readily available...McFeeley's has about anything you could
ever want. Even HD/Lowes has a fair amount. Don't know if HD/Lowes carries
square drive wood screws or not but that is way preferable to Phillips.

Besides tending toward brittleness, there are a couple other things about DW
screws that tend to disqualify them. First of all, they are often #7 shank;
for what you are doing I'd want #10, #8 minimally. Secondly is the head
shape; this isn't a biggie but DW screws have a "bugle" head...concave on
the under side. That is great for DW, less so for wood as there is less
bearing surface. As I said, not a biggie especially for soft wood and I
doubt you'll be counter sinking anyway.



--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

nestork wrote:
Also, friction is one of the least well understood phenomenon in the
world. It takes less total work to zip a drywall screw in with a
drywall gun spinning at 30,000 rpm than it does to wrist twist it in by
hand or with a cordless drill turning slower. So, while it's not enough
to be noticable, higher speeds will overcome friction better than slower
speeds.

Deck screws where I live come with Robertson drive heads, and I find
those vastly superior to Phillips or slot because you can apply way more
torque to the screw head without the drive slipping or coming out of the
screw head. Look around to see if you can buy Robertson drive deck
screws where you live. In addition, a Robertson drive will jam into the
screw head so that you can hold the screw upside down on your screw
driver or cordless drill without the screw falling off. You can't do
that with Phillips or slot.




These Star drive deck screws are also good for upside down and no slip
driving.

http://images.lowes.com/product/conv...66599437lg.jpg

There are different brands and they typically come with a driver bit in
each box.

My DeWalt cordless has a clip for holding an extra bit. I keep a Star drive
bit in the clip since just about every screw I use is either a #2 Phillips
or Star drive. I always have a bit available whichever screw type I grab.

On 11/22/2013 10:08 AM, RobertMacy wrote:
Went to add a structure to the studs and need to use screws to assemble
[no real way to pound nails in and pounding would damage existing
structure, so nails are OUT] BUT! vaguely remember some threads here
regarding using readily available 'sheet rock' screws causing failures
in a structure under load.

Thought I should ask the 'experts' here.

Can I use sheetrock screws if they are to be placed only in tension and
never in shear mode? Or, is using sheetrock screws totally stupid? Are
there readily available 'construction' screws from HD that are an all
around better choice?

Problem is that I've had good personal experience using sheetrock screws
in some other [albeit poorly assembled] construction [choice
ofsheet-rock screws was a matter of convenience and they actually held
better than nails]. The long term integrity of the structure didn't
matter a great deal. All the structures came under heavy wind load the
nails failed due to slight movement simply working the nails out. The
screws themselves remained intact, but sometimes they stripped out of
their holes and the structures failed, too.

However, during construction I did 'snap' a few screws off, reminding me
they are a bit brittle. It's just I envision 'construction' screws being
more 'rubbery' and less brittle.

Are screws simply screws and just go ahead? Is it all right to use
sheetrock screws for a bit of construction? [interior, will have some
loading.]

Be nice to know more about the operation. What kind of
new work, and used for what? Give us some idea how large,
how much wood, how much load, etc.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On Fri, 22 Nov 2013 14:04:39 -0500, "dadiOH"
wrote:

"RobertMacy" wrote in message
newsp.w6yhn2rc2cx0wh@ajm

Are screws simply screws and just go ahead? Is it all
right to use sheetrock screws for a bit of construction?

Wood screws are readily available...McFeeley's has about anything you could
ever want. Even HD/Lowes has a fair amount. Don't know if HD/Lowes carries
square drive wood screws or not but that is way preferable to Phillips.

Besides tending toward brittleness, there are a couple other things about DW
screws that tend to disqualify them. First of all, they are often #7 shank;
for what you are doing I'd want #10, #8 minimally. Secondly is the head
shape; this isn't a biggie but DW screws have a "bugle" head...concave on
the under side. That is great for DW, less so for wood as there is less
bearing surface. As I said, not a biggie especially for soft wood and I
doubt you'll be counter sinking anyway.

I second the advice of going to McFeeley's. Also check out McFeeley's
recommendation of size of fastener to use for a given application.
Like dadiOH said -- #8 minimum for any type of structure. For
furniture #8's are OK.

In my experience HD/Lowes and other big box stores don't have the
quality McFeeley's has. I did break ONE of their screws once. I was
screwing into some maple and hit the body of a previous screw at about
right angles and the latest screw snapped. That's the only one I ever
broke out of the thousands I've used.

I can't tell for sure from your picture, but I think what you're calling a "Star" drive is a Torx drive.

Everyone acknowledges that Torx is just as good a drive as Robertson.

But, P. L. Robertson, a Canadian, had his drive patented and both the screws and screw drivers in production back in 1909. In it's day, the Robertson drive was hands down the best drive available, and has been for many decades afterwards.

P. L. Robertson wanted Henry Ford to use his screws in the Type A automobile, and Henry figured out that he could save about 7 minutes in the production of each Type A car by switching to the Robertson drive. That's because the Robertson screw could be placed on the screw driver and then driven with one hand. With the slot and Phillips screws, you had to hold the screw with one hand (so it didn't fall off the screw driver) and turn the screw driver with the other hand. Ford really liked the Robertson design and realized those screws could make him more money.

The problem was that Henry didn't want to buy Robertson's screws; he wanted a license from Robertson to produce them in his own factories. Robertson was concerned that he wouldn't know for sure how many such screws Ford was producing and therefore couldn't be sure he was getting paid for all the screws Ford made.

The two men never struck a deal, and the result is that Robertson screws are common throughout all of Canada, but a comparative rarity in the US.

But, Torx screws are becoming progressively more common throughout both the US and Canada. Torx screws allow the operator to apply just as much torque to the screw head as you can with a Roberston drive, which far more than you can with either a Phillips or slot drive. And, Torx has the same advantage as Robertson in that you can put the screw on the driver and it'll stay in place as it's being driven in.

It's too bad Robertson and Ford couldn't strike a deal. Then all Americans would have found out how much better Robertson drive really is. Now, every American is buying Torx screws whenever the opportunity presents itself and no one can blame them. After all, Torx drive is just as good as Robertson.

On Fri, 22 Nov 2013 08:08:16 -0700, RobertMacy
wrote:

Went to add a structure to the studs and need to use screws to assemble
[no real way to pound nails in and pounding would damage existing
structure, so nails are OUT] BUT! vaguely remember some threads here
regarding using readily available 'sheet rock' screws causing failures in
a structure under load.

Don't do that. Sheetrock screws are for, um, sheetrock.

Thought I should ask the 'experts' here.

Can I use sheetrock screws if they are to be placed only in tension and
never in shear mode? Or, is using sheetrock screws totally stupid? Are
there readily available 'construction' screws from HD that are an all
around better choice?

Yes.

Problem is that I've had good personal experience using sheetrock screws
in some other [albeit poorly assembled] construction [choice ofsheet-rock
screws was a matter of convenience and they actually held better than
nails]. The long term integrity of the structure didn't matter a great
deal. All the structures came under heavy wind load the nails failed due
to slight movement simply working the nails out. The screws themselves
remained intact, but sometimes they stripped out of their holes and the
structures failed, too.

Yeah, I sometimes use sheetrock screws for other things, too, but
never in anything that is load bearing or that matters. They're
probably fine for partitions but it's better to get hardware intended
for the use.

However, during construction I did 'snap' a few screws off, reminding me
they are a bit brittle. It's just I envision 'construction' screws being
more 'rubbery' and less brittle.

Are screws simply screws and just go ahead? Is it all right to use
sheetrock screws for a bit of construction? [interior, will have some
loading.]

Don't do it. Get the appropriate hardware.

On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 00:43:46 +0100, nestork
wrote:

I can't tell for sure from your picture, but I think what you're calling
a "Star" drive is a Torx drive.

I have a Torx driver set that includes a "Star" shape...

A Torx driver set can include other shapes, too. It has a Robertson
style driver bit.

Sample Pic:

http://i01.i.aliimg.com/wsphoto/v0/611767605/Freeshipping-NEW-arrival-Tamper-Proof-Security-Screwdriver-Bit-Set-Hole-Torx-Hex-Hand-Tool-Driver-New.jpg_350x350.jpg

Item Features:

9 Star (Torx): 8, 10, 15, 20, 25, 27, 30, 35, 40
6 Hex (SAE): 5/64, 3/32, 7/64, 1/8, 9/64, 5/32
6 Hex (MM): 2, 2.5, 3, 4, 5, 6
4 Tri - Wing: 1, 2, 3, 4
4 Spanner: 4, 6, 8, 10
3 Torque: 6, 8, 10
1 PVC 60 mm magnetic bit holder

On Fri, 22 Nov 2013 16:28:18 -0600, Gordon Shumway
wrote:

On Fri, 22 Nov 2013 14:04:39 -0500, "dadiOH"
wrote:

"RobertMacy" wrote in message
newsp.w6yhn2rc2cx0wh@ajm

Are screws simply screws and just go ahead? Is it all
right to use sheetrock screws for a bit of construction?

Wood screws are readily available...McFeeley's has about anything you could
ever want. Even HD/Lowes has a fair amount. Don't know if HD/Lowes carries
square drive wood screws or not but that is way preferable to Phillips.

Besides tending toward brittleness, there are a couple other things about DW
screws that tend to disqualify them. First of all, they are often #7 shank;
for what you are doing I'd want #10, #8 minimally. Secondly is the head
shape; this isn't a biggie but DW screws have a "bugle" head...concave on
the under side. That is great for DW, less so for wood as there is less
bearing surface. As I said, not a biggie especially for soft wood and I
doubt you'll be counter sinking anyway.

I second the advice of going to McFeeley's. Also check out McFeeley's
recommendation of size of fastener to use for a given application.
Like dadiOH said -- #8 minimum for any type of structure. For
furniture #8's are OK.

McFeeleys is good but they don't carry everything and they're
sometimes on the expensive side, particularly for things that aren't
vanilla screws.

In my experience HD/Lowes and other big box stores don't have the
quality McFeeley's has. I did break ONE of their screws once. I was
screwing into some maple and hit the body of a previous screw at about
right angles and the latest screw snapped. That's the only one I ever
broke out of the thousands I've used.

Robert Macy:

Unlike wood screws, drywall screws are meant to be driven into wood without predrilling. Since doing that will cause a splitting force in the wood, drywall screws have a particularily small "root diameter" to minimize both the splitting force in the wood and the force required to drive them in. Such screws are called "low root screws" in the industry, and that smaller root necessarily makes them weaker than regular wood screws. If this structure you're building is going to have significant loads placed on it, you'd be better off to use a screw with a larger and stronger root, like deck screws or stainless steel wood screws (if the structure will be outdoors).

nestork wrote:
DerbyDad03;3153369 Wrote:

My DeWalt cordless has a clip for holding an extra bit. I keep a Star
drive
bit in the clip since just about every screw I use is either a #2
Phillips
or Star drive. I always have a bit available whichever screw type I
grab.

I can't tell for sure from your picture, but I think what you're calling
a "Star" drive is a Torx drive.

No, what I'm calling a "Star" drive is a "Star" drive.

http://tinyurl.com/Star-Drive

http://preview.tinyurl.com/Star-Drive

(Actual link from http://www.lowes.com/ is too long for my newsreader to
accept)

Everyone acknowledges that Torx is just as good a drive as Robertson.

I wonder what they say about Star.

....snip...

On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 01:43:03 +0000 (UTC), DerbyDad03
wrote:

nestork wrote:
DerbyDad03;3153369 Wrote:

My DeWalt cordless has a clip for holding an extra bit. I keep a Star
drive
bit in the clip since just about every screw I use is either a #2
Phillips
or Star drive. I always have a bit available whichever screw type I
grab.

I can't tell for sure from your picture, but I think what you're calling
a "Star" drive is a Torx drive.

No, what I'm calling a "Star" drive is a "Star" drive.

http://tinyurl.com/Star-Drive

http://preview.tinyurl.com/Star-Drive

(Actual link from http://www.lowes.com/ is too long for my newsreader to
accept)

Everyone acknowledges that Torx is just as good a drive as Robertson.

I wonder what they say about Star.

...snip...

What you and Lowes call a "star" drive is in fact a "Torx" drive. Torx
is the trademark name for a type of screw head characterized by a
6-point star-shaped pattern. There are 5-point tamperproof patterns
as well.

On Fri, 22 Nov 2013 08:39:30 -0800, "Bob F" wrote:

RobertMacy wrote:
Went to add a structure to the studs and need to use screws to
assemble [no real way to pound nails in and pounding would damage
existing structure, so nails are OUT]

I love my cheapo palm nailer for tight jobs. I just had to replace studs
alongside a bathtub, and this tool made it easy to nail the bottoms to the sill.
http://www.harborfreight.com/palm-nailer-60242.html

BUT! vaguely remember some
threads here regarding using readily available 'sheet rock' screws
causing failures in a structure under load.

Thought I should ask the 'experts' here.

Can I use sheetrock screws if they are to be placed only in tension
and never in shear mode? Or, is using sheetrock screws totally
stupid?

Use real wood screws. They need some metal inside of the threads. Look at a
drywal screw carefully - how mush actual metal is in the threaded area. Plus,
they are very brittle.


I once framed some 2x4s with drywall nails. When I lifted the completed
frame, it completely fell apart cuz all the screws broke. Only use them
for drywall.

Deck screws work for your needs, but why do you feel you need screws at
all. People have used nails for centuries. They work fine and are
cheaper too.

On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 00:43:46 +0100, nestork
wrote:

I can't tell for sure from your picture, but I think what you're calling
a "Star" drive is a Torx drive.

It's the same thing!

They also make a "Safety torx", looks the same except has a pin in the
middle so the tip or driver needs a hole. Those are used a lot on
electronics. Possibly the power supply in your desktop computer. They
were made to keep consumers out, but they can be bought.

Everyone acknowledges that Torx is just as good a drive as Robertson.

What is a Robertson? (what does it look like)? I've never seen or heard
of them.

On Fri, 22 Nov 2013 16:28:18 -0600, Gordon Shumway
wrote:

I second the advice of going to McFeeley's. Also check out McFeeley's
recommendation of size of fastener to use for a given application.
Like dadiOH said -- #8 minimum for any type of structure. For
furniture #8's are OK.

In my experience HD/Lowes and other big box stores don't have the
quality McFeeley's has. I did break ONE of their screws once. I was
screwing into some maple and hit the body of a previous screw at about
right angles and the latest screw snapped. That's the only one I ever
broke out of the thousands I've used.

Deck screws are still more brittle than nails. While tearing down a
building, I found lots of deck screws that had been used. A couple were
hidden in the manner the head was buried in the wood and could not be
seen. I snapped off many of those. Nails dont break, they just dont
grip as good, but for 2x4 framing, I still prefer the nails.

On Fri, 22 Nov 2013 20:41:25 -0600, wrote:

I once framed some 2x4s with drywall nails.

Home Guy, smart people have gotten past "drywall nails"; we called
them "blue nails" back in the days of my hanging sheet rock, and
drywall.

The longest "drywall nails " were _for_ 5/8" sheet rock, not for
building a structure. Dagnabitt!

You expect a ~ 2.25 inch nail to hold?

On Fri, 22 Nov 2013 20:55:18 -0600, wrote:

Nails dont break, they just dont
grip as good

Better check both of those assumptions, Home Guy!

Gordon Shumway wrote:
On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 01:43:03 +0000 (UTC), DerbyDad03
wrote:

nestork wrote:
DerbyDad03;3153369 Wrote:

My DeWalt cordless has a clip for holding an extra bit. I keep a Star
drive
bit in the clip since just about every screw I use is either a #2
Phillips
or Star drive. I always have a bit available whichever screw type I
grab.

I can't tell for sure from your picture, but I think what you're calling
a "Star" drive is a Torx drive.

No, what I'm calling a "Star" drive is a "Star" drive.

http://tinyurl.com/Star-Drive

http://preview.tinyurl.com/Star-Drive

(Actual link from http://www.lowes.com/ is too long for my newsreader to
accept)

Everyone acknowledges that Torx is just as good a drive as Robertson.

I wonder what they say about Star.

...snip...

What you and Lowes call a "star" drive is in fact a "Torx" drive. Torx
is the trademark name for a type of screw head characterized by a
6-point star-shaped pattern. There are 5-point tamperproof patterns
as well.

Here's something interesting...

McFeely's sells Torx bits and Torx drivers in all sorts of configurations,
but they don't sell any Torx drive screws. They only sell Star drive
screws.

In fact, if you search for Torx, their search engine asks you if you meant
star. Go figure.

Of course, then there 6 lobe at Fastenal and the always popular
"hexalobular internal".

wrote:
On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 00:43:46 +0100, nestork
wrote:

I can't tell for sure from your picture, but I think what you're
calling a "Star" drive is a Torx drive.

It's the same thing!

They also make a "Safety torx", looks the same except has a pin in the
middle so the tip or driver needs a hole. Those are used a lot on
electronics. Possibly the power supply in your desktop computer.
They were made to keep consumers out, but they can be bought.

I needed one of those to replace an ignition switch in my caravan. $6 for the
set someone else pointer to at the auto parts store.

Oren, I don't see that Caulking-Gunn said anything I wouldn't agree with.

Nails don't break. It's true. In my limited experience banging on the heads of nails with a hammer, I have never broken a nail. I've bent lots of 'em, but nary a one broke on me.

Nails don't grip as good. Well, it depends on the nail, I guess.

Pulling ring shank nails with a claw hammer is like fighting with a bear.
Spiral shank and cement coated nails aren't as bad.
Smooth shank nails are a carefree run through an Irish meadow in spring time.

But, pulling a screw out of wood with a claw hammer is like fighting with 2 bears. My money is on the screw holding better than any nail.

On Friday, November 22, 2013 10:08:16 AM UTC-5, Robert Macy wrote:
Went to add a structure to the studs and need to use screws to assemble

[no real way to pound nails in and pounding would damage existing

structure, so nails are OUT] BUT! vaguely remember some threads here

regarding using readily available 'sheet rock' screws causing failures in

a structure under load.

square vs Torx... which is preferable?

On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 02:39:29 -0800 (PST), Frank Thompson
wrote:

On Friday, November 22, 2013 10:08:16 AM UTC-5, Robert Macy wrote:
Went to add a structure to the studs and need to use screws to assemble

[no real way to pound nails in and pounding would damage existing

structure, so nails are OUT] BUT! vaguely remember some threads here

regarding using readily available 'sheet rock' screws causing failures in

a structure under load.

square vs Torx... which is preferable?

I prefer square. Never had one slip at all. Very little pressure
needed.

On 11/23/2013 1:18 AM, nestork wrote:


But, pulling a screw out of wood with a claw hammer is like fighting
with 2 bears. My money is on the screw holding better than any nail.


Screws will hold better, but the wrong ones will snap and break into
two. I've not kept up with codes, but most would not pass inspection
for constriction of framing.

I still see people using drywall screws because they are cheap and go in
easily. They also break easily.

"nestork" wrote in message

'Oren[_2_ Wrote:
;3153532']On Fri, 22 Nov 2013 20:55:18 -0600,
wrote:
-
Nails dont break, they just dont
grip as good-

Better check both of those assumptions, Home Guy!

Oren, I don't see that Caulking-Gunn said anything I
wouldn't agree with.

Nails don't break. It's true. In my limited experience
banging on the heads of nails with a hammer, I have never
broken a nail. I've bent lots of 'em, but nary a one
broke on me.

Nails don't grip as good. Well, it depends on the nail,
I guess.

Pulling ring shank nails with a claw hammer is like
fighting with a bear.
Spiral shank and cement coated nails aren't as bad.

Smooth shank nails are a carefree run through an Irish
meadow in spring time.

Unless they have been driven at an angle. OK, they are still easy to pull
out but pieces of wood held with two or more driven at an angle don't
separate very well. Or often.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

"dadiOH" wrote:
"nestork" wrote in message

'Oren[_2_ Wrote:
;3153532']On Fri, 22 Nov 2013 20:55:18 -0600,
wrote:
-
Nails dont break, they just dont
grip as good-

Better check both of those assumptions, Home Guy!

Oren, I don't see that Caulking-Gunn said anything I
wouldn't agree with.

Nails don't break. It's true. In my limited experience
banging on the heads of nails with a hammer, I have never
broken a nail. I've bent lots of 'em, but nary a one
broke on me.

Nails don't grip as good. Well, it depends on the nail,
I guess.

Pulling ring shank nails with a claw hammer is like
fighting with a bear.
Spiral shank and cement coated nails aren't as bad.

Smooth shank nails are a carefree run through an Irish
meadow in spring time.

Unless they have been driven at an angle. OK, they are still easy to pull
out but pieces of wood held with two or more driven at an angle don't
separate very well. Or often.

I'd bring up the subject of toe screwing but I'm afraid of where that might
take this thread.

On 11/23/2013 9:05 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
"dadiOH" wrote:
Unless they have been driven at an angle. OK, they are still easy to pull
out but pieces of wood held with two or more driven at an angle don't
separate very well. Or often.

I'd bring up the subject of toe screwing but I'm afraid of where that might
take this thread.


"with that woman, Miss Lewinksy..."

I'm still waiting to hear more details from the
OP, what s/he is building. We don't have a lot
of info.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On Friday, November 22, 2013 9:41:25 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Fri, 22 Nov 2013 08:39:30 -0800, "Bob F" wrote:



RobertMacy wrote:

Went to add a structure to the studs and need to use screws to

assemble [no real way to pound nails in and pounding would damage

existing structure, so nails are OUT]



I love my cheapo palm nailer for tight jobs. I just had to replace studs

alongside a bathtub, and this tool made it easy to nail the bottoms to the sill.

http://www.harborfreight.com/palm-nailer-60242.html



BUT! vaguely remember some

threads here regarding using readily available 'sheet rock' screws

causing failures in a structure under load.



Thought I should ask the 'experts' here.



Can I use sheetrock screws if they are to be placed only in tension

and never in shear mode? Or, is using sheetrock screws totally

stupid?



Use real wood screws. They need some metal inside of the threads. Look at a

drywal screw carefully - how mush actual metal is in the threaded area. Plus,

they are very brittle.





I once framed some 2x4s with drywall nails. When I lifted the completed

frame, it completely fell apart cuz all the screws broke. Only use them

for drywall.



Deck screws work for your needs, but why do you feel you need screws at

all. People have used nails for centuries. They work fine and are

cheaper too.

I believe the OP mentioned that he was doing some renovation type
work and did not want to make more work by damaging what is already
there, eg drywall, by pounding nails. That's a good reason for
using screws.

On 11/23/2013 4:39 AM, Frank Thompson wrote:
On Friday, November 22, 2013 10:08:16 AM UTC-5, Robert Macy wrote:
Went to add a structure to the studs and need to use screws to assemble

[no real way to pound nails in and pounding would damage existing

structure, so nails are OUT] BUT! vaguely remember some threads here

regarding using readily available 'sheet rock' screws causing failures in

a structure under load.

square vs Torx... which is preferable?

A couple carpenters on a job said square was far better than phillips,
and torx was better than square.

On Fri, 22 Nov 2013 10:18:50 -0700, nestork
wrote:


Also, friction is one of the least well understood phenomenon in the
world. It takes less total work to zip a drywall screw in with a
drywall gun spinning at 30,000 rpm than it does to wrist twist it in by
hand or with a cordless drill turning slower. So, while it's not enough
to be noticable, higher speeds will overcome friction better than slower
speeds.

Deck screws where I live come with Robertson drive heads, and I find
those vastly superior to Phillips or slot because you can apply way more
torque to the screw head without the drive slipping or coming out of the
screw head. Look around to see if you can buy Robertson drive deck
screws where you live. In addition, a Robertson drive will jam into the
screw head so that you can hold the screw upside down on your screw
driver or cordless drill without the screw falling off. You can't do
that with Phillips or slot.






I wonder if my 3Rill has a Robretson's Head driver?

Another reply suggests not a good idea to even use deck screws, only
'construction' screws.

On Fri, 22 Nov 2013 09:39:30 -0700, Bob F wrote:
...snip....
Use real wood screws. They need some metal inside of the threads. Look
at a
drywal screw carefully - how mush actual metal is in the threaded area.
Plus,
they are very brittle.


uh, i've got boxes of different dry wall screws. some of them have fine
threads, as fine as metal screws which would normally be used to go into a
nut fastener.

On Fri, 22 Nov 2013 10:31:37 -0700, Dan Espen wrote:

...snip....
None of the screws broke. A few were pulled out, but mostly
the lumber broke.

So, I think you'll be fine with deck screws.


Think you're right. my experience, too the wood failed first.

On Fri, 22 Nov 2013 11:31:59 -0700, John Grabowski
wrote:

...snip...
*I had a chat with a local building inspector about this several months
ago. He said drywall screws are only to be used for drywall. Regular
wood screws don't qualify for structural connections. Deck screws are
for holding down boards. He told me that structural screws are
acceptable as a substitute for nails. You could try calling your
building inspector to see what is acceptable.

Simpson StrongTie makes structural screws of which Home Depot does stock
some. They also have other structural screws from other manufacturers.
You can also use some structural connectors to make things really
strong. Home Depot carry's the screws for fastening the connectors as
well.

http://www.strongtie.com/products/co...ource=fastenhp

http://www.homedepot.com/s/structural+screws?NCNI-5



Thanks for the URLs! I tend to agree with your 'formal' answer. In other
words, use what is DESIGNED for use, not something that 'looks' like it
will work.

On Fri, 22 Nov 2013 11:44:45 -0700, Oren wrote:

On Fri, 22 Nov 2013 08:08:16 -0700, RobertMacy
wrote:

Sheet rock screws sheet rock

Wood screws wood

It was just that 'sheetrock' screws still have to seat into wood. Have
lots lying around. and previous experience suggests the wood fails first.
However, that one reply about using 'construction' screws kind of has me
convinced to look for those.