Years ago, I build a large wall out of 2x4s and fastened them together
with those black drywall screws. (About 3 inch long). I built it on the
ground, and when it was complete, I began to lift it into place, like I
had always dont with walls that I formerly put together with nails.
Well, when lifting the wall, it flexed, and seconds later I had a pile
of 2x4s laying all around me and several that were resting on top of my
body. I quickly learned (the hard way), that those screws are NOT made
for Structural Construction. They are very brittle and break as soon as
they are stressed (such as lifting the wall in place).

After cussing a lot, I had to rebuild that entire wall, using nails. I
have stuck with nails ever since. Over the years I've been reminded
about NOT using those black screws for Structural Construction, while
having to repair things built by other people who used them. In fact I
bought a shed that was for sale and needed to be moved. I was preparing
to move the shed, jacking it up, when the shed walls began coming off
the shed floor. Sure enough, the builder had used those damn screws to
attach the walls to the floor. We had to add lots of nails before
moving the shed, or it would have been in pieces real soon.

Anyhow, recently my neighbor built a fairly large canopy to put over his
door, and prebuilt the whole thing on the ground, complete with steel
roofing. He got it done, and found it was too heavy for two men to lift
above his door. So, he came to me, knowing I have a tractor with a
loader. I took the tractor and lifted it above his door. He shot
several of those gold colored deck screws into the house, and propped
some 2x4's under it until the permanent posts could be placed. I
lowered the tractor loader about 6 inches as the guys tried to raise the
front edge of that canopy with the prop 2x4s because the front was too
low.

It was fortunate I had not removed the tractor loader, or someone could
have been hurt, not to mention damage to the canopy, because it fell
right off the house wall. The cause was those deck screws snapped.

I was a little surprised myself. I thought deck screws were stronger
than those black drywall screws. I guess I was wrong. While they
probably are somewhat stronger, they are still brittle and they will
break.

We got it back in place, but used 16D common nails the next time and
everything worked perfectly. After that incident, I've pretty much come
to the conclusion that Screws are NOT made for Structural Construction.
None of them. Nails may bend, but still hold the boards together. But
screws break, and when they break, the boards do not stay together. In
fact, they're dangerous.

Unless they make a screw specifically for structural construction,
(which I am not aware of), I dont recommend using screws for any
structural construction at all. Stick with nails.

On 07/25/2013 07:08 AM, wrote:
Years ago, I build a large wall out of 2x4s and fastened them together
with those black drywall screws. (About 3 inch long). I built it on the
ground, and when it was complete, I began to lift it into place, like I
had always dont with walls that I formerly put together with nails.
Well, when lifting the wall, it flexed, and seconds later I had a pile
of 2x4s laying all around me and several that were resting on top of my
body. I quickly learned (the hard way), that those screws are NOT made
for Structural Construction. They are very brittle and break as soon as
they are stressed (such as lifting the wall in place).

After cussing a lot, I had to rebuild that entire wall, using nails. I
have stuck with nails ever since. Over the years I've been reminded
about NOT using those black screws for Structural Construction, while
having to repair things built by other people who used them. In fact I
bought a shed that was for sale and needed to be moved. I was preparing
to move the shed, jacking it up, when the shed walls began coming off
the shed floor. Sure enough, the builder had used those damn screws to
attach the walls to the floor. We had to add lots of nails before
moving the shed, or it would have been in pieces real soon.

Anyhow, recently my neighbor built a fairly large canopy to put over his
door, and prebuilt the whole thing on the ground, complete with steel
roofing. He got it done, and found it was too heavy for two men to lift
above his door. So, he came to me, knowing I have a tractor with a
loader. I took the tractor and lifted it above his door. He shot
several of those gold colored deck screws into the house, and propped
some 2x4's under it until the permanent posts could be placed. I
lowered the tractor loader about 6 inches as the guys tried to raise the
front edge of that canopy with the prop 2x4s because the front was too
low.

It was fortunate I had not removed the tractor loader, or someone could
have been hurt, not to mention damage to the canopy, because it fell
right off the house wall. The cause was those deck screws snapped.

I was a little surprised myself. I thought deck screws were stronger
than those black drywall screws. I guess I was wrong. While they
probably are somewhat stronger, they are still brittle and they will
break.

We got it back in place, but used 16D common nails the next time and
everything worked perfectly. After that incident, I've pretty much come
to the conclusion that Screws are NOT made for Structural Construction.
None of them. Nails may bend, but still hold the boards together. But
screws break, and when they break, the boards do not stay together. In
fact, they're dangerous.

Unless they make a screw specifically for structural construction,
(which I am not aware of), I dont recommend using screws for any
structural construction at all. Stick with nails.


they do, DAGS for framing screws.

Drywall screws are not right, as you found, they're not strong enough.

I'm surprised that deck screws didn't work for you, as I would expect
them to be very similar to framing screws but either with better
anti-rust coatings or (the very expensive ones) stainless.

With screws, however, you may have to predrill to prevent splitting.
This doesn't happen so much with nails. Nails are in fact tried and
true and work well. I'd expect proper framing screws to work better,
but still.

When shopping for framing screws make sure you specify that you're using
wood studs... "framing screws" can also refer to sheetmetal type screws
used to hold metal studs together in commercial construction.

nate


--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

Nate Nagel wrote:
On 07/25/2013 07:08 AM, wrote:
Years ago, I build a large wall out of 2x4s and fastened them together
with those black drywall screws. (About 3 inch long). I built it on the
ground, and when it was complete, I began to lift it into place, like I
had always dont with walls that I formerly put together with nails.
Well, when lifting the wall, it flexed, and seconds later I had a pile
of 2x4s laying all around me and several that were resting on top of my
body. I quickly learned (the hard way), that those screws are NOT made
for Structural Construction. They are very brittle and break as soon as
they are stressed (such as lifting the wall in place).

After cussing a lot, I had to rebuild that entire wall, using nails. I
have stuck with nails ever since. Over the years I've been reminded
about NOT using those black screws for Structural Construction, while
having to repair things built by other people who used them. In fact I
bought a shed that was for sale and needed to be moved. I was preparing
to move the shed, jacking it up, when the shed walls began coming off
the shed floor. Sure enough, the builder had used those damn screws to
attach the walls to the floor. We had to add lots of nails before
moving the shed, or it would have been in pieces real soon.

Anyhow, recently my neighbor built a fairly large canopy to put over his
door, and prebuilt the whole thing on the ground, complete with steel
roofing. He got it done, and found it was too heavy for two men to lift
above his door. So, he came to me, knowing I have a tractor with a
loader. I took the tractor and lifted it above his door. He shot
several of those gold colored deck screws into the house, and propped
some 2x4's under it until the permanent posts could be placed. I
lowered the tractor loader about 6 inches as the guys tried to raise the
front edge of that canopy with the prop 2x4s because the front was too
low.

It was fortunate I had not removed the tractor loader, or someone could
have been hurt, not to mention damage to the canopy, because it fell
right off the house wall. The cause was those deck screws snapped.

I was a little surprised myself. I thought deck screws were stronger
than those black drywall screws. I guess I was wrong. While they
probably are somewhat stronger, they are still brittle and they will
break.

We got it back in place, but used 16D common nails the next time and
everything worked perfectly. After that incident, I've pretty much come
to the conclusion that Screws are NOT made for Structural Construction.
None of them. Nails may bend, but still hold the boards together. But
screws break, and when they break, the boards do not stay together. In
fact, they're dangerous.

Unless they make a screw specifically for structural construction,
(which I am not aware of), I dont recommend using screws for any
structural construction at all. Stick with nails.


they do, DAGS for framing screws.

Drywall screws are not right, as you found, they're not strong enough.

I'm surprised that deck screws didn't work for you, as I would expect
them to be very similar to framing screws but either with better
anti-rust coatings or (the very expensive ones) stainless.

Deck screws are not structural. All they are meant to do is to hold
decking to the deck joists so they don't move.
And deck screws can break or tear out if the decking twists enough.



With screws, however, you may have to predrill to prevent splitting.
This doesn't happen so much with nails. Nails are in fact tried and
true and work well. I'd expect proper framing screws to work better,
but still.

When shopping for framing screws make sure you specify that you're using
wood studs... "framing screws" can also refer to sheetmetal type screws
used to hold metal studs together in commercial construction.

nate




--
Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
In the original Orange County. Est. 1683
To email, remove the double zeros after @

On 2013-07-25, wrote:

Unless they make a screw specifically for structural construction,
(which I am not aware of), I dont recommend using screws for any
structural construction at all. Stick with nails.

Thanks for this valuble info. As a backyard handiman, I rebuilt the
steps on my mom's deck. Seeing all the ppl using screws, I bought a
DeWalt and jumped in, using 3-1/2" deck screws, my 8 mos of framing
experience from 40 yrs before serving me fairly well. Discovered
early I needed to pre-drill, but still used deck screws to secure cut
strings to deck. When I replace the tread boards, I'll make sure I
re-enforce the deck screws with framing screws or 16Ds. I think I may
still have my late brother's framing gun. I know I have his framing
hammer and am not too old to swing it. Being basically a mechanical
type, I attached the baluster/spindles and handrail to strings using
3/8" SS nuts/bolts and fender washers. I know those will hold.

nb

wrote:
Years ago, I build a large wall out of 2x4s and fastened them together
with those black drywall screws. (About 3 inch long). I built it on
the ground, and when it was complete, I began to lift it into place,
like I had always dont with walls that I formerly put together with
nails. Well, when lifting the wall, it flexed, and seconds later I
had a pile of 2x4s laying all around me and several that were resting
on top of my body. I quickly learned (the hard way), that those
screws are NOT made for Structural Construction. They are very
brittle and break as soon as they are stressed (such as lifting the
wall in place).

After cussing a lot, I had to rebuild that entire wall, using nails.
I have stuck with nails ever since. Over the years I've been reminded
about NOT using those black screws for Structural Construction, while
having to repair things built by other people who used them. In fact
I bought a shed that was for sale and needed to be moved. I was
preparing to move the shed, jacking it up, when the shed walls began
coming off the shed floor. Sure enough, the builder had used those
damn screws to attach the walls to the floor. We had to add lots of
nails before moving the shed, or it would have been in pieces real
soon.

Anyhow, recently my neighbor built a fairly large canopy to put over
his door, and prebuilt the whole thing on the ground, complete with
steel roofing. He got it done, and found it was too heavy for two
men to lift above his door. So, he came to me, knowing I have a
tractor with a loader. I took the tractor and lifted it above his
door. He shot several of those gold colored deck screws into the
house, and propped some 2x4's under it until the permanent posts
could be placed. I lowered the tractor loader about 6 inches as the
guys tried to raise the front edge of that canopy with the prop 2x4s
because the front was too low.

It was fortunate I had not removed the tractor loader, or someone
could have been hurt, not to mention damage to the canopy, because it
fell right off the house wall. The cause was those deck screws
snapped.

I was a little surprised myself. I thought deck screws were stronger
than those black drywall screws. I guess I was wrong. While they
probably are somewhat stronger, they are still brittle and they will
break.

We got it back in place, but used 16D common nails the next time and
everything worked perfectly. After that incident, I've pretty much
come to the conclusion that Screws are NOT made for Structural
Construction. None of them. Nails may bend, but still hold the
boards together. But screws break, and when they break, the boards
do not stay together. In fact, they're dangerous.

Unless they make a screw specifically for structural construction,
(which I am not aware of), I dont recommend using screws for any
structural construction at all. Stick with nails.

There are plenty of screws that are strong. Drywall screws and deck screws are
not among them. The are made or hard brittle metal to resist the force of
screwing them in, and are too thin to have any real strength. They often break
just screwing them in or out. Look at the thickness of the screw center shaft,
ignoring the threads. There's almost nothing there. Try bending them and see
what happens.

On Thursday, July 25, 2013 7:08:21 AM UTC-4, wrote:
Years ago, I build a large wall out of 2x4s and fastened them together

with those black drywall screws. (About 3 inch long). I built it on the

ground, and when it was complete, I began to lift it into place, like I

had always dont with walls that I formerly put together with nails.

Well, when lifting the wall, it flexed, and seconds later I had a pile

of 2x4s laying all around me and several that were resting on top of my

body. I quickly learned (the hard way), that those screws are NOT made

for Structural Construction. They are very brittle and break as soon as

they are stressed (such as lifting the wall in place).



After cussing a lot, I had to rebuild that entire wall, using nails. I

have stuck with nails ever since. Over the years I've been reminded

about NOT using those black screws for Structural Construction, while

having to repair things built by other people who used them. In fact I

bought a shed that was for sale and needed to be moved. I was preparing

to move the shed, jacking it up, when the shed walls began coming off

the shed floor. Sure enough, the builder had used those damn screws to

attach the walls to the floor. We had to add lots of nails before

moving the shed, or it would have been in pieces real soon.



Anyhow, recently my neighbor built a fairly large canopy to put over his

door, and prebuilt the whole thing on the ground, complete with steel

roofing. He got it done, and found it was too heavy for two men to lift

above his door. So, he came to me, knowing I have a tractor with a

loader. I took the tractor and lifted it above his door. He shot

several of those gold colored deck screws into the house, and propped

some 2x4's under it until the permanent posts could be placed. I

lowered the tractor loader about 6 inches as the guys tried to raise the

front edge of that canopy with the prop 2x4s because the front was too

low.



It was fortunate I had not removed the tractor loader, or someone could

have been hurt, not to mention damage to the canopy, because it fell

right off the house wall. The cause was those deck screws snapped.



I was a little surprised myself. I thought deck screws were stronger

than those black drywall screws. I guess I was wrong. While they

probably are somewhat stronger, they are still brittle and they will

break.



We got it back in place, but used 16D common nails the next time and

everything worked perfectly. After that incident, I've pretty much come

to the conclusion that Screws are NOT made for Structural Construction.

None of them. Nails may bend, but still hold the boards together. But

screws break, and when they break, the boards do not stay together. In

fact, they're dangerous.



Unless they make a screw specifically for structural construction,

(which I am not aware of), I dont recommend using screws for any

structural construction at all. Stick with nails.

Tapcons are pretty good. Especially for forming. Drywall screws are good for drywall one every 4 inches covered with mud and painted.

Violently overthrow the US government

On 2013-07-25, Nate Nagel wrote:

they do, DAGS for framing screws.

OK, I've found structural wood screws, but haven't a clue what "DAGS"
means. Explain, please. TIA

nb

On Thursday, July 25, 2013 8:00:39 AM UTC-7, notbob wrote:
On 2013-07-25, Nate Nagel wrote:



they do, DAGS for framing screws.



OK, I've found structural wood screws, but haven't a clue what "DAGS"

means. Explain, please. TIA



nb

Same here. Tried a google and only got this:

http://www.daggerz.com/daggerz/Techn...erz%20MSDS.pdf

Daggers seems to be a manufacturer's name vice a type of screw though.

Harry K

On Thursday, July 25, 2013 4:08:21 AM UTC-7, wrote:
Years ago, I build a large wall out of 2x4s and fastened them together

with those black drywall screws. (About 3 inch long). I built it on the

ground, and when it was complete, I began to lift it into place, like I

had always dont with walls that I formerly put together with nails.

Well, when lifting the wall, it flexed, and seconds later I had a pile

of 2x4s laying all around me and several that were resting on top of my

body. I quickly learned (the hard way), that those screws are NOT made

for Structural Construction. They are very brittle and break as soon as

they are stressed (such as lifting the wall in place).



After cussing a lot, I had to rebuild that entire wall, using nails. I

have stuck with nails ever since. Over the years I've been reminded

about NOT using those black screws for Structural Construction, while

having to repair things built by other people who used them. In fact I

bought a shed that was for sale and needed to be moved. I was preparing

to move the shed, jacking it up, when the shed walls began coming off

the shed floor. Sure enough, the builder had used those damn screws to

attach the walls to the floor. We had to add lots of nails before

moving the shed, or it would have been in pieces real soon.



Anyhow, recently my neighbor built a fairly large canopy to put over his

door, and prebuilt the whole thing on the ground, complete with steel

roofing. He got it done, and found it was too heavy for two men to lift

above his door. So, he came to me, knowing I have a tractor with a

loader. I took the tractor and lifted it above his door. He shot

several of those gold colored deck screws into the house, and propped

some 2x4's under it until the permanent posts could be placed. I

lowered the tractor loader about 6 inches as the guys tried to raise the

front edge of that canopy with the prop 2x4s because the front was too

low.



It was fortunate I had not removed the tractor loader, or someone could

have been hurt, not to mention damage to the canopy, because it fell

right off the house wall. The cause was those deck screws snapped.



I was a little surprised myself. I thought deck screws were stronger

than those black drywall screws. I guess I was wrong. While they

probably are somewhat stronger, they are still brittle and they will

break.



We got it back in place, but used 16D common nails the next time and

everything worked perfectly. After that incident, I've pretty much come

to the conclusion that Screws are NOT made for Structural Construction.

None of them. Nails may bend, but still hold the boards together. But

screws break, and when they break, the boards do not stay together. In

fact, they're dangerous.



Unless they make a screw specifically for structural construction,

(which I am not aware of), I dont recommend using screws for any

structural construction at all. Stick with nails.

There is no rule that says which screw or nail you can use where.
You may have to alter the design
if you don’t want to alter your choice of screws or nails
but you can use any screw anywhere
as long as you have the experience and common sense
to know how a structure will behave.
Some mistakes people make with screws is that
they place a screw too close to the edge and
crack the wood, especially if they use old dry lumber and
don’t drill a hole first. Another mistake is that a screw
or a nail is not designed to hold up a structure
but to keep the structure that is doing the holding from
moving. In other words a screw or a nail should not be
relied on to hold up a weight but to keep the stud that
is holding the weight from moving.

Harry K wrote:
On Thursday, July 25, 2013 8:00:39 AM UTC-7, notbob wrote:
On 2013-07-25, Nate Nagel wrote:



they do, DAGS for framing screws.



OK, I've found structural wood screws, but haven't a clue
what "DAGS"

means. Explain, please. TIA



nb

Same here. Tried a google and only got this:

http://www.daggerz.com/daggerz/Techn...erz%20MSDS.pdf

Daggers seems to be a manufacturer's name vice a type of
screw though.

Harry K

Do A Google Search.......DAGS
hth

On 2013-07-25, ChairMan wrote:

Do A Google Search.......DAGS

I did. nada....

On 7/25/2013 8:00 AM, notbob wrote:
On 2013-07-25, Nate Nagel wrote:

they do, DAGS for framing screws.

OK, I've found structural wood screws, but haven't a clue what "DAGS"
means. Explain, please. TIA

nb


Do A Google Search

On 2013-07-25, chaniarts wrote:

Do A Google Search

I'm not foolish enough to use google.

https://duckduckgo.com/

nb

notbob wrote:
On 2013-07-25, chaniarts
wrote:

Do A Google Search

I'm not foolish enough to use google.

https://duckduckgo.com/

nb

double WHOOSH

On 2013-07-25, ChairMan wrote:
notbob wrote:

I'm not foolish enough to use google.

double WHOOSH

Three pages of google reveals zip about structural screws with DAGS
ref. What's that make you? A dbl douche?

nb

On Thursday, July 25, 2013 7:08:21 AM UTC-4, wrote:
Years ago, I build a large wall out of 2x4s and fastened them together

with those black drywall screws. (About 3 inch long). I built it on the

ground, and when it was complete, I began to lift it into place, like I

had always dont with walls that I formerly put together with nails.

Well, when lifting the wall, it flexed, and seconds later I had a pile

of 2x4s laying all around me and several that were resting on top of my

body. I quickly learned (the hard way), that those screws are NOT made

for Structural Construction. They are very brittle and break as soon as

they are stressed (such as lifting the wall in place).



After cussing a lot, I had to rebuild that entire wall, using nails. I

have stuck with nails ever since. Over the years I've been reminded

about NOT using those black screws for Structural Construction, while

having to repair things built by other people who used them. In fact I

bought a shed that was for sale and needed to be moved. I was preparing

to move the shed, jacking it up, when the shed walls began coming off

the shed floor. Sure enough, the builder had used those damn screws to

attach the walls to the floor. We had to add lots of nails before

moving the shed, or it would have been in pieces real soon.



Anyhow, recently my neighbor built a fairly large canopy to put over his

door, and prebuilt the whole thing on the ground, complete with steel

roofing. He got it done, and found it was too heavy for two men to lift

above his door. So, he came to me, knowing I have a tractor with a

loader. I took the tractor and lifted it above his door. He shot

several of those gold colored deck screws into the house, and propped

some 2x4's under it until the permanent posts could be placed. I

lowered the tractor loader about 6 inches as the guys tried to raise the

front edge of that canopy with the prop 2x4s because the front was too

low.



It was fortunate I had not removed the tractor loader, or someone could

have been hurt, not to mention damage to the canopy, because it fell

right off the house wall. The cause was those deck screws snapped.



I was a little surprised myself. I thought deck screws were stronger

than those black drywall screws. I guess I was wrong. While they

probably are somewhat stronger, they are still brittle and they will

break.



We got it back in place, but used 16D common nails the next time and

everything worked perfectly. After that incident, I've pretty much come

to the conclusion that Screws are NOT made for Structural Construction.

None of them. Nails may bend, but still hold the boards together. But

screws break, and when they break, the boards do not stay together. In

fact, they're dangerous.



Unless they make a screw specifically for structural construction,

(which I am not aware of), I dont recommend using screws for any

structural construction at all. Stick with nails.


*Simpson, the company that makes structural connectors also make structural screws. Home Depot has them with the Simpson connectors. A building inspector on a job I was on recently confirmed that these screws are rated for shear load.

notbob writes:

On 2013-07-25, chaniarts wrote:

Do A Google Search

I'm not foolish enough to use google.

https://duckduckgo.com/

At the risk that you still don't get it:

_D_o _A_ _G_oogle _S_earch.

The first letter of each word in the phrase
"Do A Google Search".

No, DAGS didn't ring a bell with me either,
but I did eventually get it.

--
Dan Espen

notbob wrote:
On 2013-07-25, ChairMan wrote:

Do A Google Search.......DAGS

I did. nada....


DAGS means:

D o
A
G oogle
S earch


--
Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
In the original Orange County. Est. 1683
To email, remove the double zeros after @

People should be aware that drywall screws are classed as "low root" screws.

The screw "root" is the diameter of solid steel at the center of the screw once one eliminates the screw threads.

http://www.boltscience.com/images/screw3.gif

ALL screws that are meant to be driven into wood without predrilling will be low root screws. The requirement that the screw be driven into wood without predrilling necessitates that the screw have a small root diameter, but it also results in a screw that is physically weaker than a regular wood screw, which is meant to be driven into predrilled holes.

EVERY wood screw will hold better and be structurally stronger than a nail. Nails hold by friction, whereas wood screws have root diameters that are equal to or greater than those of nails, AND wood screws have threads that grip the surrounding wood much better than a nail ever could. Try pulling a screw out of wood with a claw hammer and you'll learn that first hand.

The issue with the title of this thread is that it suggests that screws, in general, don't work as well as nails, and that's just not true. If you want a STRONG joint, just use a STRONG screw, like a wood screw or sheet metal screw and predrill for the large root that screw will have. If you're doing work outdoors, use stainless steel screws instead.

What we have here is a situation where someone is using drywall screws in an application they were never intended for, and warning people away from them because they don't perform to his expectations. Really, the issue here should be to just use the right nail or screw for each job, and you won't have problems with either. If the OP had used 3 inch wood screws instead of 3" drywall screws, I'm sure his experience with them would have been totally different.

On 25 Jul 2013 14:53:30 GMT, notbob wrote:

On 2013-07-25, wrote:

Unless they make a screw specifically for structural construction,
(which I am not aware of), I dont recommend using screws for any
structural construction at all. Stick with nails.

Thanks for this valuble info. As a backyard handiman, I rebuilt the
steps on my mom's deck. Seeing all the ppl using screws, I bought a
DeWalt and jumped in, using 3-1/2" deck screws, my 8 mos of framing
experience from 40 yrs before serving me fairly well. Discovered
early I needed to pre-drill, but still used deck screws to secure cut
strings to deck. When I replace the tread boards, I'll make sure I
re-enforce the deck screws with framing screws or 16Ds. I think I may
still have my late brother's framing gun. I know I have his framing
hammer and am not too old to swing it. Being basically a mechanical
type, I attached the baluster/spindles and handrail to strings using
3/8" SS nuts/bolts and fender washers. I know those will hold.

nb

Combination of construction screws and nails does the job well. Screws
have good holding power, but poor shear. Nails have good shear, but
plain nails hon't have much holding power, and there are (as far as I
know) no "ardox" or spiral nails for nail guns. My brother just put
up his new shop, and he screwed everything together for the initial
assembly (allowing him to remove and re-install if there was any
adjustment required) - then finished up with 3 1/2 inch nails in the
framing nailer ( not easy to find 3 1/2")

On 2013-07-25, Dan Espen wrote:

At the risk that you still don't get it:

_D_o _A_ _G_oogle _S_earch.

Hah!! Got it.

I no doubt missed it due to the fact I'm the founding --and most
likely only-- member of CRAP: Curmudgeons Resisting Acronym
Propagation.


nb

"Bob F" wrote in :

wrote:
Years ago, I build a large wall out of 2x4s and fastened them
together with those black drywall screws. (About 3 inch long). I
built it on the ground, and when it was complete, I began to lift it
into place, like I had always dont with walls that I formerly put
together with nails. Well, when lifting the wall, it flexed, and
seconds later I had a pile of 2x4s laying all around me and several
that were resting on top of my body. I quickly learned (the hard
way), that those screws are NOT made for Structural Construction.
They are very brittle and break as soon as they are stressed (such as
lifting the wall in place).

After cussing a lot, I had to rebuild that entire wall, using nails.
I have stuck with nails ever since. Over the years I've been
reminded about NOT using those black screws for Structural
Construction, while having to repair things built by other people who
used them. In fact I bought a shed that was for sale and needed to
be moved. I was preparing to move the shed, jacking it up, when the
shed walls began coming off the shed floor. Sure enough, the builder
had used those damn screws to attach the walls to the floor. We had
to add lots of nails before moving the shed, or it would have been in
pieces real soon.

Anyhow, recently my neighbor built a fairly large canopy to put over
his door, and prebuilt the whole thing on the ground, complete with
steel roofing. He got it done, and found it was too heavy for two
men to lift above his door. So, he came to me, knowing I have a
tractor with a loader. I took the tractor and lifted it above his
door. He shot several of those gold colored deck screws into the
house, and propped some 2x4's under it until the permanent posts
could be placed. I lowered the tractor loader about 6 inches as the
guys tried to raise the front edge of that canopy with the prop 2x4s
because the front was too low.

It was fortunate I had not removed the tractor loader, or someone
could have been hurt, not to mention damage to the canopy, because it
fell right off the house wall. The cause was those deck screws
snapped.

I was a little surprised myself. I thought deck screws were stronger
than those black drywall screws. I guess I was wrong. While they
probably are somewhat stronger, they are still brittle and they will
break.

We got it back in place, but used 16D common nails the next time and
everything worked perfectly. After that incident, I've pretty much
come to the conclusion that Screws are NOT made for Structural
Construction. None of them. Nails may bend, but still hold the
boards together. But screws break, and when they break, the boards
do not stay together. In fact, they're dangerous.

Unless they make a screw specifically for structural construction,
(which I am not aware of), I dont recommend using screws for any
structural construction at all. Stick with nails.

There are plenty of screws that are strong. Drywall screws and deck
screws are not among them. The are made or hard brittle metal to
resist the force of screwing them in, and are too thin to have any
real strength. They often break just screwing them in or out. Look at
the thickness of the screw center shaft, ignoring the threads. There's
almost nothing there. Try bending them and see what happens.



Try cutting one with a hack saw. Too hard=too brittle=to snap. They are
DRYWALL screws.

I dont recommend using screws for any
structural construction at all.

And if someone has their underlayment nails popping through the vinyl
because they didn't use ring shanks then that means all nails are no good
for anything?

And if someone has a bunch or drywall nail pops because regular nails
were were used vs drywall nails then the nails that were used are no good
for anything. [Yea I know. Who uses drywall nails any more?]

These nails & screws didn't get put in by themself. They were chosen and
put in by someone, a person, "who knew what they were doing".

On Thu, 25 Jul 2013 22:51:25 +0200, nestork
wrote:


People should be aware that drywall screws are classed as "low root"
screws.

The screw "root" is the diameter of solid steel at the center of the
screw once one eliminates the screw threads.

http://www.boltscience.com/images/screw3.gif

ALL screws that are meant to be driven into wood _without_predrilling_
will be low root screws. The requirement that the screw be driven into
wood without predrilling necessitates that the screw have a small root
diameter, but it also results in a screw that is physically weaker than
a regular wood screw, which is meant to be driven into predrilled
holes.

EVERY wood screw will hold better and be structurally stronger than a
nail. Nails hold by friction, whereas wood screws have root diameters
that are equal to or greater than those of nails, AND wood screws have
threads that grip the surrounding wood much better than a nail ever
could. Try pulling a screw out of wood with a claw hammer and you'll
learn that first hand.

The issue with the title of this thread is that it suggests that screws,
in general, don't work as well as nails, and that's just not true. If
you want a STRONG joint, just use a STRONG screw, like a wood screw or
sheet metal screw and predrill for the large root that screw will have.
If you're doing work outdoors, use stainless steel screws instead.

What we have here is a situation where someone is using drywall screws
in an application they were never intended for, and warning people away
from them because they don't perform to his expectations. Really, the
issue here should be to just use the right nail or screw for each job,
and you won't have problems with either. If the OP had used 3 inch wood
screws instead of 3" drywall screws, I'm sure his experience with them
would have been totally different.
The BIG problem today is virtually all "construction screws" are
manufactured in china of "mystery metal".

notbob wrote:
On 2013-07-25, ChairMan wrote:
notbob wrote:

I'm not foolish enough to use google.

double WHOOSH

Three pages of google reveals zip about structural screws
with DAGS
ref. What's that make you? A dbl douche?

nb

your question was not about screws, it was what DAGS stood
for
As Dan pointed out......

At the risk that you still don't get it:

_D_o A _G_oogle _S_earch.

The first letter of each word in the phrase
"Do A Google Search".

No, DAGS didn't ring a bell with me either,
but I did eventually get it.

--
I think that makes you the douche

I did as I already posted. Nothing.

Why not just tell us what it is?

Harry K

On Thursday, July 25, 2013 8:59:12 PM UTC-7, Harry K wrote:
I did as I already posted. Nothing.



Why not just tell us what it is?



Harry K

Okay, got it. Now if you would just tell us what to search FOR. To say that responding DAGS is far less than helpful is an understatement.

Harry K

On Thu, 25 Jul 2013 16:38:25 -0400, willshak
wrote:

notbob wrote:
On 2013-07-25, ChairMan wrote:

Do A Google Search.......DAGS

I did. nada....


DAGS means:

D o
A
G oogle
S earch

Jesus ****ing christ, 15 posts about this ****. Plus Google sucks the
big one anyhow!