On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 21:25:05 +0000 (UTC), Danny D'Amico
wrote:

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 06:38:36 -0800, TimR wrote:

electrons don't actually get pulled from ground and sent to your house,
unless you have a DC supply. In AC, electrons merely bounce back and
forth a short distance, like a millionth of a meter.
The wave travels, but not the electrons. IIRC.

This is a good thought-provoking point.

The electrons do get bounced back and forth, but, isn't there "current"
in so much that *work* is being done, which requires the electrons to
actually "move"?

Ah, so AC power doesn't work? It's good to find that out after 40
years as an electrical engineer. ;-)

The work is being done by the "wave". They do move, just not very
far. They make up for being home bodies (though it's more than a few
micrometers, IIRC) by their numbers. These numbers are fairy easy to
calculate but not tonight. ;-)

On Monday, November 25, 2013 6:33:07 PM UTC-5, Danny D'Amico wrote:
On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 14:15:05 -0800, wrote:



They are *not* both valid. You have it wrong.



Well, this entire discussion is about how the power supply works, so,

it is germane to the discussion how the power company completes the

circuit.


I didn't see anyone here saying it wasn't germane, only
that you're wrong.



I don't have any more arguments, and, we *do* have at least one

reference which supports my statement.


So, now one reference to a light-weight, novice level tutorial on power
distribution is the authoritative source? Why don't you look at
all the other sources that say he's wrong? As I already pointed out,
you can start with looking at what the author of that reference
himself said immediately preceeding:

" "There are four wires coming out of every power plant: the three phases plus a neutral or ground common to all three."


If the power company is using the earth, why would there be a 4th wire?
And clearly the author doesn't understand the difference between a
neutral, which is a current carrying conductor, and a ground. Neither did
you until we explained it to you with regard to split-phase service
to a house. But you don't have a clue to how it works on the primary
side. I've told you at least 6 times now, that with a balanced load,
which is what the world looks like to a power plant, there is no
need for any return circuit path other than the 3 phase wires coming out.
Good grief.




That doesn't mean I'm correct. What it means is we need more references

(either way), instead of our statements (since we all sincerely believe

what we're stating).


If you spent half the time looking that you do arguing, you'd
have found plenty of references by now that say you're wrong.
I'm starting to understand John's annoyance. You came in here
not knowing a ground from a neutral. Now you're here acting like
your opinion is worth as much as anyone else's. I believe John is
an electrician. I'm an EE, Bud is too. All of us are telling you
that you're wrong.




Googling for:

"how does electricity get back to the power company -solar"



This is on the first page (which was referenced already):

http://science.howstuffworks.com/env...rgy/power3.htm

It agrees with what I said (on page 4).



Here it says the same thing (that the earth is the return path):

http://www.science.smith.edu/~jcarde...ecPwr_HSW.html



And he

http://www.electricityforum.com/elec...-it-works.html



But those are all repeats. How about this Physics forum?

http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=429670



Good grief, that's a repeat of the same thing too. Right at
the top it references "How stuff works". All those references
use the exact same words, go back to the one same place, the
same "How stuff works" guy.





Now, that does not prove that the earth is the return path

for the electricity back to the power company, but, it is clearly

a half dozen (or so) references which say what I've always thought

was the case.



Are you that stupid that you think 6 places that use the
same incorrect source somehow makes it right?




That means that the idea isn't so far fetched as it may appear.

Admittedly, most of these references were cut out of the same

mold (probably due to my search terms?), so I welcome someone

who can find a reference that says the earth is *not* the return

path for the HVAC typical power generated in the USA.

Maybe you should do that yourself. You might learn something.

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 21:17:55 +0000 (UTC), Danny D'Amico
wrote:

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 20:43:01 +0100, nestork wrote:

And what about this "ground," as mentioned above? The power company
essentially uses the earth as one of the wires in the power system. The
earth is a pretty good conductor and it is huge, so it makes a good
return path for electrons.

I'm glad you found that, because there MUST be a complete circuit for
current to flow (assuming an imbalance, as someone else noted).

The return or the power company is the other phases.

The fact that the earth isn't obviously a "wire" is lost on some
people who simply assume earth is ground potential and that's that.

But that's not how it works. The Earth is *not* part of the circuit.
It's just used a reference point.

But, that's OK.

That's because *both* ways of thinking work just fine, simply because the
earth contains more electrons than anything on earth (which goes without
saying). It's like the car frame example. Exactly. Only on a huge scale.

Irrelevant. Electrical power would work the same way if the Earth had
no free electrons.

So, both concepts work simply because earth and the car frame are special
things that don't look like wires, but, they act both like zero potential
and like wires.

Nope. Not the same at all.

Specifically, the earth is both a zero potential, and a huge conductor
back to the power company.

Wrong. It is just defined to be zero and everything is referenced to
it.

As Gallileo supposedly said on his deathbed to those who couldn't
fathom the wonders of the earth ... "and yet, it does".

....and here I thought it was Tesla who designed our power system.

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 23:36:07 +0000 (UTC), Danny D'Amico
wrote:

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 13:43:23 -0800, wrote:


As has been explained a dozen times now, there is a complete
circuit and under normal conditions, the earth is *not* part of
it. You continue to ignore the *neutral" and the fact that with
a balanced 3 phase load, the entire current flows in the 3 phase
conductors.

Let's stop arguing *our* viewpoints and come up with references.

It is *NOT* a viewpoint. It is a fact.

I found a half dozen references which said the ground is the
return path to the power company, including one physics forum.

They're wrong.

Let's now try to find a reference that refutes that.

You already have.

Specifically, let's find a reference that says the ground is
*not* the return path to the power company.

Note: It will likely be easy to find references that don't
state either, so, the important point is to find a reference
that specifically says the ground is *not* the return path.

"Danny D'Amico" wrote in message
...
That means that the idea isn't so far fetched as it may appear.
Admittedly, most of these references were cut out of the same
mold (probably due to my search terms?), so I welcome someone
who can find a reference that says the earth is *not* the return
path for the HVAC typical power generated in the USA.


Why would the heating, ventilation and air conditioning go back to the power
generating station ?

On Monday, November 25, 2013 6:45:59 PM UTC-5, Danny D'Amico wrote:
On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 16:26:14 -0500, Ralph Mowery wrote:



the AC power does not use the ground for anything but safety and

not one return leg.

There are a couple on here that will never get it.



If the statement is true, then you should be able to find at least

one reliable reference that supports your supposition. Right?



It's not like the question has never been asked before.



I provided more than a half dozen references which supported the

statement that the ground, in the typical USA AC transmission system,

is the return path to the electric company.



I admit, those references seemed to be from howto, school, and

physics web sites - but it was all that I could find.



However, I could not find a single reference that stated that the

ground is *not* the return path to the power company.



If it's true that the ground is not the return path, given that

clearly a LOT of sites say that it is, then why can't we find a

single reliable reference that explicitly refutes that assumption?



Again, I'm perfectly happy to be wrong if someone can prove they

are right. Merely stating that I'm wrong and that you are right

does nobody any good.



Let's see a single reliable reference that explicitly answers

the question by flatly refuting the (clearly common) assumption

that the ground *is* the return path back to the power company.

Now it's a clearly common assumption? Prior to you bringing
it up, I never heard it before.

Here's a diagram for you:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-phase_electric_power

Go part way down to the animated drawing that shows a 3 phase
power plant connected to it's 3 phase load. Note the 3 wires
and that planet earth is *not* part of the circuit.

That is how power is generated and delivered. They may use the
earth somewhere in the world as part of some power delivery
circuit for something, but if they do, it's the exception, not
the typical 99% part of how power is delivered.

On Monday, November 25, 2013 6:44:17 PM UTC-5, Carson Vos wrote:
On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 14:25:59 -0800, wrote:



Tell that to my lying scope. You put the two hot legs of the

split-phase service on a scope and what do you see? Two phases that

differ by 180 degrees. If they didn't differ by 180 degrees, you would

not have 240V. It's every bit as real as seeing 3 phases on a scope

that are 120 deg seperate.



These are typical of the breakers in my panel.



http://www.amazon.com/Siemens-Q220-2.../dp/B00002N5HI



My panel was installed by a licensed master electrician.

The panel passed inspection.



The breakers are not listed for 2 phase service, only single or 3 phase.



Who should I sue for installing a panel not listed for 2 phase service?

The electrician? Electrical inspector? Siemens?



And last but not least, where do I find 2 phase breakers?

I never said I would call the service 2 phase. It's not referred to as
that in the industry. There is no disagreement that what comes into the panel originates from one phase of the electrical distribution system. It's like
white tissues being called Kleenex. That doesn't change the fact that they
are white, soft, tissues, does it?

I'm still waiting for someone on the other side of this to give your
definition of the term phase. In electrical engineering, the most basic usage is the relationship between two periodic waveforms, expressed in degrees.
If I see two waveforms that are different in phase, be it 120 deg, 90 deg
or 180 deg, then there are two phases present and it can be viewed that way.

And what do you say to the fact that you have a very credible, experienced
power engineer delivering a paper before the IEEE conf of power engineers
that agrees that you have two phases present?

Danny D'Amico wrote:

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 09:53:24 +1100, John G wrote:

I don't believe anyone has said the neutral is not insulated.

I thought it was said here, but, maybe I misinterpreted the quote?

The utility service drop from the pole to the house typically has the
neutral conductor uninsulated. From that point forward to the meter and
the house distribution panel the neutral is insulated. In the house the
ground conductors are typically not insulated, and the ground and
neutral are bonded together only at the distribution panel. The neutral
is a current carrying conductor that is ground*ed*, but being current
carrying it may not be at ground potential at all points. The ground is
a ground*ing* conduction that carries no current except under fault
conditions. The service drop to the house does not contain a ground
conductor, only the neutral and two hot conductors.

On 11/25/13 6:03 PM, wrote:

So, now one reference to a light-weight, novice level tutorial on power
distribution is the authoritative source? Why don't you look at
all the other sources that say he's wrong? As I already pointed out,
you can start with looking at what the author of that reference
himself said immediately preceeding:

" "There are four wires coming out of every power plant: the three phases plus a neutral or ground common to all three."


If the power company is using the earth, why would there be a 4th wire?
And clearly the author doesn't understand the difference between a
neutral, which is a current carrying conductor, and a ground. Neither did
you until we explained it to you with regard to split-phase service
to a house. But you don't have a clue to how it works on the primary
side. I've told you at least 6 times now, that with a balanced load,
which is what the world looks like to a power plant, there is no
need for any return circuit path other than the 3 phase wires coming out.
Good grief.


There is or was something called SWER, single wire earth return.
A bit he http://preview.tinyurl.com/mccxaq2
The source calls itself Transmission and Distribution World.
I don't remember seeing a single wire anywhere in my travels. It's
admittedly not high on my list of things to observe while traveling.
And I haven't traveled outside of the continental U.S.

SWER evidently isn't efficient according to this bit.

Quote:

Conductor characteristics. Line length varies according to customer
distribution, with an average SWER feeder length of 60 km (37 miles),
although a 400-km (250-mile) SWER system is in operation in one state.
Therefore, circuit losses because of the high resistance of the SWER
conductors, reactive losses in the isolating transformers and resistive
losses in the earthing systems can be up to 100% greater compared to
those of a single-phase (two-wire) system serving similar loads.

End quote.

wrote in message ...
On Monday, November 25, 2013 5:53:24 PM UTC-5, John G wrote:

The typical and very common overhead service coming into a house
is an example of an unisulated neutral, isn't it? All the wire
manufacturers sell service cable with an uninsulated neutral, so
somone must be using it.....

OMG! So many spin-offs from something that has clearly been explained,
time and again. So, instead of trying to answer each in turn, one reply
to all that my frustrated head can remember.

In direct answer to your point, yes. The messenger wire is bare. Only
between transformer and weatherhood. Once it goes into a conduit, it
must be insulated. In fact, all wires in a conduit must be insulated.
Bare wires in a conduit have a tendency to mess up the insulation of
the insulated wires. In panels and J-boxes ground wires are allowed
to be bare, but it is preferential to have them insulated, as well.
Sort of the prevent surprises when jostling things about while performing
a task in live boxes and such. Just for the record, I do not like metal
cut-in boxes or nail-on boxes for switches or receptacles. Especially
when solid wire is used (most romex). I pretty much cannot stand solid
wire for most anything, unless it is in an application where the memory
of said wire is desirable.

Another, quick point: Separate utility wiring from building wiring. The
two are separate entities that follow different rules. Before the meter
falls under the P.U.C. After the meter falls under N.E.C. With some
exceptions for before the meter. Underground services that go to a common
junction box may be considered part of the residence in some areas. I
know this is true in Menlo Park, Ca. The utility considers the junction
box in the sidewalk the end of utility responsibility. For the most part,
all overhead to the weatherhood is utility, after the splice, is part of
the residence. So, the splice point seems to be the utility cut-off.

Now, for the more general and completely fubar'd part.

Repeat after me, "The ground is not, never will be, never has been, nor
ever will be a part of an electrical circuit." Not utility, not residence.
The ground is not a good conductor. In fact, the ground is not homogenous,
and in some locales is exceptionally horrid at conducting electricity at
lengths of only a couple of meters. Most areas have already had a GEO
done on them, and the local powers that be are aware of this fact and
will require a ground resistance check to verify the viability of a ground
electrode to facilitate an Earth bond. This is in no way a circuit connection.
It is a potential energy connection. Part of the reason why multiple
ground rods are required, now. Sometimes a bare cable must be installed,
in a trench, to an engineered distance from the service entrance, or, even,
all the way back to the utility ground location if the soil is that bad.

An individual may remove the ground connections at the meter-main, and at
the transformer and the circuit will operate just fine. The ground wire
does not aid nor hinder the electrical circuits. They are for safety, only.
Well, some shady computer-power-supply manufacturers/mobo developers tried
to go around this at one point in time. They don't do that anymore. :-)
In fact, there was a time when one could not find a ground wire in a
residence. The ground on the transformer was for when the overheads
got knocked down from the weatherhood, for whatever reason, and the ground
allowed a fault path back to the transformer so that the fuse on it would
blow.

Now, some places are still stupid and might do things differently, so do
not play the exception is the norm crap with me, please. Hell, go down
to Australia, or some places in Canada, and scratch your head. Hell, there
are places in the States that are that way, and power distribution in the
States is not universal in all areas. Most areas will follow the rules of
whom controls power transmission. Sometimes they don't get along with the
others and will only agree on how the high tension lines are connected
between different sources. After that, it's a local thing.

For instance. Here in Arkansas, at least in my region, there is one hot
wire, and one neutral wire going to the primary of a residential transformer.
Where I grew up in California, there were two hots and a neutral. Though,
that is not necessarily how the whole state operated. Where I grew up was
a long way to the nearest sub-station, and those familiar with poly-phase
systems know that the current on poly-phase systems is substantially lower
than single phase feeds. Just for those who might question: No, the feed
was not two-phase, just two legs from a three-phase. The main trunk had
four wires, three high, one low, on the pole with cable/phone even lower.


Danny, it is easy for a short or power malfunction to blow up more than one
thing. Part of the reason I was wondering if there was a temperary open
neutral condition. Regardless, I would junk your entire alarm system and
install a new system. Check out Ebay. Screw the middle man. As an extra
protection, buy a small U.P.S. and power the new system with that. Unless
you have a contract with someone, your system doesn't do squat, anyway.
So, why bother? If to only have an audible alarm, a much cheaper system
may be obtained. Once again, check Ebay.

That's it, for now. Other things to do...

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 16:44:45 -0800, wrote:

I never said I would call the service 2 phase.

Well thank God we finally agree it is single phase service.

"Danny D'Amico"

Googling for:

"how does electricity get back to the power company -solar"


** The simple answer is it doesn't - so the question is absurd.

Home solar power goes nowhere until the current generated exceeds that being
consumed by the house - the excess then goes to the neighbour's houses via
the local grid.

Ground conductors plus the earth itself carry NO current UNLESS a fault
exists.

Ground conductors exist for safety reasons.

FYI:

Ask Google a crazy question = get a crazy answer.



.... Phil

"Danny D'Amico" wrote in message ...
On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 10:17:08 +1100, John G wrote:

If you had any understanding of electricity you could understand that
the GROUND is not part of the circuit.
It is there to keep all the parts of the system at the same reference
potential.

Well, I *thought* I understood electricity, in that without a "loop",
there would be no current.

Read until you get to semi-conductors. Then read again:

http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_1/index.html

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 16:03:48 -0800, wrote:

I didn't see anyone here saying it wasn't germane, only
that you're wrong.

I'd be perfectly happy to be wrong. It's not a contest.

This is a technical discussion.

We're just looking for a reference that supports the view that
the earth is *not* the return path (since we only found references
that support the view that it is).

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 19:13:25 -0500, Ralph Mowery wrote:

Why would the heating, ventilation and air conditioning go back to the power
generating station ?

High voltage A/C.

"Danny D'Amico" wrote in message ...
On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 15:10:28 -0500, clare wrote:

Maybe that's odd, for the USA though, 'cuz everyone is saying that
the neutral is normally bare.


No, they are not.

"Danny D'Amico" wrote in message ...
On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 13:43:23 -0800, wrote:

That isn't an alternate way of thinking, it's
just wrong.

Again, I don't think we'll get anywhere with you saying it's wrong,
and me saying they're both right. We can repeat ourselves until we're
blue in the face, and we'll get nowhere toward the correct answer.

We clearly showed multiple references, some of them from schools and
physics forums, which clearly stated the ground is the return path
back to the power company. This may or may not be true, but, we
can certainly find people stating that this is the case.

Are your references from Australia?

wrote in message ...
On Monday, November 25, 2013 6:33:07 PM UTC-5, Danny D'Amico wrote:

I didn't see anyone here saying it wasn't germane, only
that you're wrong.



I don't have any more arguments, and, we *do* have at least one

reference which supports my statement.


So, now one reference to a light-weight, novice level tutorial on power
distribution is the authoritative source? Why don't you look at
all the other sources that say he's wrong? As I already pointed out,
you can start with looking at what the author of that reference
himself said immediately preceeding:

" "There are four wires coming out of every power plant: the three phases plus a neutral or ground common to all three."

Terminology, that is the question. Ground common? Hmmm, seems to be a non-North American
phrase. But, we all know that the system is getting dumbed down and proper terminology
is going out the window. It is hard to get people to excise the term "ground" from
their perception of how a circuit works, much less how other aspects of safely implementation
a power distribution system works, or the separation of enforcement and installation
practices vary for each phase of the distribution. It would appear that Danny cannot
separate utility from customer, or the exception from the rule. Nor does he understand
charge, electric potential, electro motive force, or just electricity, in general.

"Dean Hoffman" " wrote in message ...

There is or was something called SWER, single wire earth return.
A bit he http://preview.tinyurl.com/mccxaq2
The source calls itself Transmission and Distribution World.
I don't remember seeing a single wire anywhere in my travels. It's
admittedly not high on my list of things to observe while traveling.
And I haven't traveled outside of the continental U.S.

Ah, a reference to Australia. :-)

seamus formulated on Tuesday :
On 11/25/2013 05:25 PM, wrote:
Tell that to my lying scope. You put the two hot legs of the
split-phase service on a scope and what do you see?

How many phases does your oscilloscope show when you put the probe *reference
clip* on L1 and the probe *tip* on L2?
(Mine shows a single-phase sin wave)

What is the peak to peak voltage when you put the probe *reference clip* on
L1 and the probe *tip* on L2?

What is the RMS voltage when you put the probe *reference clip* on L1 and the
probe *tip* on L2?



For whatever it's worth, my single-phase central air unit is powered only by
L1, L2. The neutral is not used.

If you put the reference clip of your scope on either L1 or L2 and you
have not somehow floated (removed the ground from your scope) it will
likely be the smokey end of the skope and maybe you.

--
John G

wrote in message ...
On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 19:30:08 -0600, Nightcrawler®
wrote:

In fact, all wires in a conduit must be insulated.

Not true at all.
The neutral will be required to be insulated after the service
disconnect where the grounding electrode conductor lands and you will
have to keep it separate from the ground after that. (typically 4
wires now)

At that point the ground can remain uninsulated.
It does not matter if that is in a cable or in a conduit.

It might be grandfathered in, but was never allowed in any new
service installation I was ever around. Could just be local
addendums to code. I don't think I have ever met a smart electrician
that would pull a bare wire in a conduit run. Hell, most do not
like pushing a metal fish-tape through an "in use" conduit. Those
that do often pay the price. Heheh, I do have some stories
on things of that nature.

If a neutral is allowed bare in a metallic conduit, then that conduit
is now a charged entity, theoretically, and goes against the "only
one bonding point to ground" rule. They wouldn't use insulators for
the anchor point for messenger cables at the weatherhood, either.

Just sayin'...

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 20:43:01 +0100, nestork
wrote:


bud--;3155057 Wrote:

The earth does not complete the circuit. Wires complete the circuit.


Bud, until recently I would have agreed with you. But, whomever wrote
this web page obviously knows something about electric power generation
and distribution and seems to disagree:

http://tinyurl.com/y4syno6

Look at the bottom paragraph in the section entitled "The Power Plant:
Three Phase Power" where it says:


And what about this "ground," as mentioned above? The power company
essentially uses the earth as one of the wires in the power system. The
earth is a pretty good conductor and it is huge, so it makes a good
return path for electrons. (Car manufacturers do something similar; they
use the metal body of the car as one of the wires in the car's
electrical system and attach the negative pole of the battery to the
car's body.) "Ground" in the power distribution grid is literally "the
ground" that's all around you when you are walking outside. It is the
dirt, rocks, groundwater, etc., of the earth.


I don't think he could have said it any clearer.
And he COULD have been more accurate. He is wrong, for instance, in
stating each tap takes off 2 phases. It GENERALLY takes off ONE phase
- which feeds a center tapped step-down distribution transformer. The
primary of that thansformer has only 2 conductors, and a single
winding. The secondary has 3 wires, and a center tapped winding,
providing SINGLE PHASE power to the local residential grid..
There are 2 basic 3 phase connection schemes, delta and wye. Wye has a
neutral (so requires 4 wires) while delta uses only 3 wires. Delta
connections take power from l1 to l2, l2 to l3, and l3 to l1. Wye
takes power from l1 to n, l2 to n and l3 to n.

BOTH are used. A 3 phase generator can be either delta or wye. In
North America MOST systems are wye, while in other parts of the world
delta is more common. (but in europe, 4 wire(wye) is used
(400/230volt)
Japan, on the other hand, uses a full 3 phase distribution system and
does not use center tapped transformers to provide high/low voltage to
homes - they actually feed 2 phases to each house like many MURBs in
North America - so they get nominal 120/208 instead of 120/240. Both
50 and 60 hz are used, and much of the country is 100 volt, instead of
120 - and some is 115. (must be fun if moving from place to place
within the country to get the right equipment ----)

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 23:36:07 +0000 (UTC), Danny D'Amico
wrote:

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 13:43:23 -0800, wrote:


As has been explained a dozen times now, there is a complete
circuit and under normal conditions, the earth is *not* part of
it. You continue to ignore the *neutral" and the fact that with
a balanced 3 phase load, the entire current flows in the 3 phase
conductors.

Let's stop arguing *our* viewpoints and come up with references.
I found a half dozen references which said the ground is the
return path to the power company, including one physics forum.

Let's now try to find a reference that refutes that.

Specifically, let's find a reference that says the ground is
*not* the return path to the power company.

Note: It will likely be easy to find references that don't
state either, so, the important point is to find a reference
that specifically says the ground is *not* the return path.
Try
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electri...tion_sy stems

I know, it's only a WIKI, but in part it states:
"A ground connection to local earth is normally provided for the
customer's system as well as for the equipment owned by the utility.
The purpose of connecting the customer's system to ground is to limit
the voltage that may develop if high voltage conductors fall down onto
lower-voltage conductors which are usually mounted lower to the
ground, or if a failure occurs within a distribution transformer. If
all conductive objects are bonded to the same earth grounding system,
the risk of electric shock is minimized. However, multiple connections
between the utility ground and customer ground can lead to stray
voltage problems; customer piping, swimming pools or other equipment
may develop objectionable voltages. These problems may be difficult to
resolve since they often originate from places other than the
customer's premises."

Only in some rather rare circumstances is the "ground" actually used
in place of a current carrying conductor - eg. In New Zealand,
Australia, Saskatchewan, Canada, and South Africa, single wire earth
return systems SWER are used to electrify remote rural areas.Here they
use galvanized iron wire in place of copper and run higher than
normal voltages to compensate for the extra resistances involved.
Obviously these are only single phase, single voltage distribution
systems where a multi-tap transformer is used to adjust the end user
voltage.

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 21:31:54 +0000 (UTC), Danny D'Amico
wrote:

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 15:10:28 -0500, clare wrote:

Line1 and Line2 are generally red and black, with the neutral white
and safety ground bare or green

Everything you said about the "single phase" center tap made perfect sense.

People keep saying the neutral wires is normally bare, but, I must
say, mine is insulated.
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3780/1...9139da3c_o.gif

Maybe that's odd, for the USA though, 'cuz everyone is saying that
the neutral is normally bare.
The "neutral" is NEVER bare in North America (except in some parts
of rural Sakatchewan Canada, where single wire earth return IS
actually still in limited use) In SWERT there is no "safety ground"
and it is not uncommon to get a shock when standing on the "ground"
and touching something that is connected to the "ground" some distance
away - like a water trough, fed with a steel pipe from a somewhat
distant water pump. If the trough is set on rock, or on a wooden base,
and an animal is standing in the mud and goes to take a drink, they
can recieve a rather nasty shock....

Danny D'Amico wrote in :

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 15:10:28 -0500, clare wrote:

Line1 and Line2 are generally red and black, with the neutral white
and safety ground bare or green

Everything you said about the "single phase" center tap made perfect sense.

People keep saying the neutral wires is normally bare, but, I must
say, mine is insulated.
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3780/1...9139da3c_o.gif

Maybe that's odd, for the USA though, 'cuz everyone is saying that
the neutral is normally bare.

Depends mostly on how the wire is brought to the home -- overhead supply often (but not
always) uses an uninsulated neutral, but IME underground supply *always* uses an
insulated neutral.

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 23:45:59 +0000 (UTC), Danny D'Amico
wrote:

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 16:26:14 -0500, Ralph Mowery wrote:

the AC power does not use the ground for anything but safety and
not one return leg.
There are a couple on here that will never get it.

If the statement is true, then you should be able to find at least
one reliable reference that supports your supposition. Right?

It's not like the question has never been asked before.

I provided more than a half dozen references which supported the
statement that the ground, in the typical USA AC transmission system,
is the return path to the electric company.

I admit, those references seemed to be from howto, school, and
physics web sites - but it was all that I could find.

However, I could not find a single reference that stated that the
ground is *not* the return path to the power company.

If it's true that the ground is not the return path, given that
clearly a LOT of sites say that it is, then why can't we find a
single reliable reference that explicitly refutes that assumption?

Again, I'm perfectly happy to be wrong if someone can prove they
are right. Merely stating that I'm wrong and that you are right
does nobody any good.

Let's see a single reliable reference that explicitly answers
the question by flatly refuting the (clearly common) assumption
that the ground *is* the return path back to the power company.


I have given you a couple references that "prove" the ground is not
GENERALLY used as the return, because they specifically mention the
odd case where it DOES get used , SWERT, as an anomoly (being out of
the ordinary)

Just admit it. You don't like to be "wrong" - but in this case, you
and the sources you reference ARE.

wrote in :

The "neutral" is NEVER bare in North America (except in some parts
of rural Sakatchewan Canada, where single wire earth return IS
actually still in limited use)

Absolute nonsense. You see bare neutrals all over the place in rural areas of the U.S. with
overhead service.

http://www.southwire.com/products/Tr...erviceDrop.htm

Don't you think it's time you stopped assuming that what is true in your [obviously limited]
experience is true everywhere?

"Carson Vos" wrote in message ...
On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 14:25:59 -0800, wrote:

Tell that to my lying scope. You put the two hot legs of the
split-phase service on a scope and what do you see? Two phases that
differ by 180 degrees. If they didn't differ by 180 degrees, you would
not have 240V. It's every bit as real as seeing 3 phases on a scope
that are 120 deg seperate.

These are typical of the breakers in my panel.

http://www.amazon.com/Siemens-Q220-2.../dp/B00002N5HI

My panel was installed by a licensed master electrician.
The panel passed inspection.

The breakers are not listed for 2 phase service, only single or 3 phase.

Who should I sue for installing a panel not listed for 2 phase service?
The electrician? Electrical inspector? Siemens?

And last but not least, where do I find 2 phase breakers?

Um, those are typical ITE style (Siemens subsidiary or bought out IIRC) with
a tie handle. The difference is that what you have is a one piece unit, using
two single-pole breakers, riveted together at the factory. However, those tie
handles may be purchased and it is legal to install them on two separate single
pole breakers. I still hate the set-up since in theory when one breaker trips
the tie handle trips the other breaker. In theory *cough*. Actually, this version
works better than some of the other designs I have seen.

I think you would have a hard time finding a two-phase breaker. Especially one for
a 5-wire system. Though, in theory, a single pole breaker could be used for each
hot leg of a 3-wire system installed in a single-phase panel. One would have to
figure out the math for the magnetic trip portion of the breaker, or only have a
current trip. Amperage by any power source is the same, period. Fuses work, too.

(removing tongue from check)

"Doug Miller" wrote in message ...
Danny D'Amico wrote in :

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 15:10:28 -0500, clare wrote:

Line1 and Line2 are generally red and black, with the neutral white
and safety ground bare or green

Everything you said about the "single phase" center tap made perfect sense.

People keep saying the neutral wires is normally bare, but, I must
say, mine is insulated.
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3780/1...9139da3c_o.gif

Maybe that's odd, for the USA though, 'cuz everyone is saying that
the neutral is normally bare.

Depends mostly on how the wire is brought to the home -- overhead supply often (but not
always) uses an uninsulated neutral, but IME underground supply *always* uses an
insulated neutral.


Yep. That's why you see the wire with the fancy stripe. :-) Generally you will
only see the messenger cable used as a neutral for residential services. Poly-
phase drops use four insulated conductors.

(Of course, the exception is the rule types will chime in.)

I've been kind of following this thread, and I can follow the notion that in a perfectly balanced electrical load the voltage and current sine waves would all cancel out when they met at the neutral wire and so there wouldn't be any current or voltage in either the neutral or ground wires.

But, in a real life situation, suppose I made a point of driving my CRT style TV sets (capacitive loads) and CRT style computer monitors with one power line coming into my house, and at the same time I used the other 120 VAC power line to provide power to all of the electric motors in my house, like the circulating pump on my hot water heating system, the motor in my garage door opener and the compressor motor in my fridge.

Now, according to ELI the ICE man, the current sine waves going through the motors is going to lag behind the applied voltage sine wave, while the current sine waves coming out of the CRT style TV sets and computer monitors is going to precede the applied voltage sine wave. That would mean that the current sine waves returning to the main panel along the white wires would occur at different times, and therefore NOT cancel each other out completely.

Now, I cannot fit it into my head that the voltage sine waves in the neutral wires coming back from those two kinds of loads would cancel each other completely in the neutral buss in the main panel, but not the current sine waves. That would mean that you'd have some NET current sine wave, and therefore current, without any driving voltage.

In order for there to be some NET current sine wave, there HAS TO BE some net voltage sine wave in the white neutral buss in the main panel where all the white wires meet to drive that current.

And I can't see why that net voltage sine wave wouldn't energize the ground cable coming out of the main panel and cause current to flow through that cable and into and out of the Good Earth.

What am I missing here?

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 20:03:04 -0600, Nightcrawler® wrote:

Are your references from Australia?

Nope. You saw the references. They were all for standard
power distribution in the United States.

For example, this reference from Smith College, Northampton, MA:
http://www.science.smith.edu/~jcarde...ecPwr_HSW.html

Says:
"The power company essentially uses the earth as one of
the wires in the power system. The earth is a pretty good
conductor and it is huge, so it makes a good return path
for electrons."

That's from an EE class:
http://www.science.smith.edu/~jcardell/Courses/EGR220/
EGR 220, Spring 2013, Engineering Circuit Theory

Taught by Judith Cardell, who researches this stuff:
http://www.science.smith.edu/~jcardell/

So, why do you constantly disparage my comments when I can
easily prove that exactly what I have said all along is being
taught to electrical engineers in college-level courses?

All I'm asking is for you to provide a reference that refutes
the statement above. You can *say* you don't believe it all
you want; but, all I ask is a single reliable reference
backing up the claim that the power company does *not*
use the ground as the a "good return path for electrons".

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 21:52:34 -0500, clare wrote:

Only in some rather rare circumstances is the "ground" actually used
in place of a current carrying conductor

This reference from Smith College, Northampton, MA:
http://www.science.smith.edu/~jcarde...ecPwr_HSW.html

Says:
"The power company essentially uses the earth as one of
the wires in the power system. The earth is a pretty good
conductor and it is huge, so it makes a good return path
for electrons."

That's from an EE class:
http://www.science.smith.edu/~jcardell/Courses/EGR220/
EGR 220, Spring 2013, Engineering Circuit Theory

Taught by Judith Cardell, who researches this stuff:
http://www.science.smith.edu/~jcardell/

She should know, shouldn't she?

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 19:54:22 -0600, Nightcrawler® wrote:

Read until you get to semi-conductors. Then read again:

This reference from Smith College, Northampton, MA:
http://www.science.smith.edu/~jcarde...ecPwr_HSW.html

Says:
"The power company essentially uses the earth as one of
the wires in the power system. The earth is a pretty good
conductor and it is huge, so it makes a good return path
for electrons."

That's from an EE class:
http://www.science.smith.edu/~jcardell/Courses/EGR220/
EGR 220, Spring 2013, Engineering Circuit Theory

Taught by Judith Cardell, who researches this stuff:
http://www.science.smith.edu/~jcardell/

She should know, shouldn't she?

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 22:03:35 -0500, clare wrote:

I have given you a couple references that "prove" the ground is not
GENERALLY used as the return, because they specifically mention the
odd case where it DOES get used , SWERT, as an anomoly (being out of
the ordinary)

Just admit it. You don't like to be "wrong" - but in this case, you
and the sources you reference ARE.

You're getting too personal. This is not a personal issue.
We are all among friends here.
This is merely a discussion about what the TRUTH is.

I don't see a single reference in all your posts which state that
the earth is not used as the return path for electrons in typical
American power distribution.

In contrast, I have provided a half-dozen references which directly
state that the earth is used as the return path for electrons in
power distribution in the United States.

For example, read this reference:
http://www.science.smith.edu/~jcarde...ecPwr_HSW.html

Which states, clearly as the sun shines on the truth:
"The power company essentially uses the earth as one of
the wires in the power system. The earth is a pretty good
conductor and it is huge, so it makes a good return path
for electrons."

This is from this electrical engineering class:
http://www.science.smith.edu/~jcardell/Courses/EGR220/
EGR 220, Spring 2013, Engineering Circuit Theory

Taught by this associate professor:
http://www.science.smith.edu/~jcardell/

Again, this is not a personal issue. I don't care if I'm right or
wrong. I don't care if you are right or wrong.

I just want to know what the truth is.
And, if this EE class is wrong, then I would think we can find a single
reference that refutes the statement I quoted.

I can't find any. No matter how hard I look.
Can you?

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 05:55:20 +0100, nestork wrote:

And I can't see why that net voltage sine wave wouldn't energize the
ground cable coming out of the main panel and cause current to flow
through that cable and into and out of the Good Earth.

I loved your description. It was an elegantly written logical
thought process. I like the way your mind works!

To clarify this important issue, this is what I found:
"The power company essentially uses the earth as one of
the wires in the power system. The earth is a pretty good
conductor and it is huge, so it makes a good return path
for electrons."

That was found in an EE class taught by this associate professor:
http://www.science.smith.edu/~jcardell/

This is the EE class where that concept is being taught:
http://www.science.smith.edu/~jcardell/Courses/EGR220/
EGR 220, Spring 2013, Engineering Circuit Theory

That statement above is part of the curriculum on power generation
and distribution in the United States:
http://www.science.smith.edu/~jcarde...ecPwr_HSW.html

So, like you, since the fact the ground is used as the return path for
electrons seems to be as clear as day, I wonder why there are vehement
arguments (some of which are getting unnecessarily personal) that it's not.

I'm ok with the answer being either way. I don't care who is right
and who is wrong (and I'll admit when I'm wrong any time that I am).

But, this one seems clear as the earth revolves around the sun.

But, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe the earth is *not* used as a return
path for electrons back to the power company.

Q: Can anyone find a reliable reference that refutes the statement
above (taught in EE classes) that the earth is used as a return path
for electrons back to the power company?

nestork wrote:
I've been kind of following this thread, and I can follow the notion
that in a perfectly balanced electrical load the voltage and current
sine waves would all cancel out when they met at the neutral wire and so
there wouldn't be any current or voltage in either the neutral or ground
wires.

But, in a real life situation, suppose I made a point of driving my CRT
style TV sets (capacitive loads) and CRT style computer monitors with
one power line coming into my house, and at the same time I used the
other 120 VAC power line to provide power to all of the electric motors
in my house, like the circulating pump on my hot water heating system,
the motor in my garage door opener and the compressor motor in my
fridge.

Now, according to ELI the ICE man, the current sine waves going through
the motors is going to lag behind the applied voltage sine wave, while
the current sine waves coming out of the CRT style TV sets and computer
monitors is going to precede the applied voltage sine wave. That would
mean that the current sine waves returning to the main panel along the
white wires would occur at different times, and therefore NOT cancel
each other out completely.

Now, I cannot fit it into my head that the voltage sine waves in the
neutral wires coming back from those two kinds of loads would cancel
each other completely in the neutral buss in the main panel, but not the
current sine waves. That would mean that you'd have some NET current
sine wave, and therefore current, without any driving voltage.

In order for there to be some NET current sine wave, there HAS TO BE
some net voltage sine wave in the white neutral buss in the main panel
where all the white wires meet to drive that current.

And I can't see why that net voltage sine wave wouldn't energize the
ground cable coming out of the main panel and cause current to flow
through that cable and into and out of the Good Earth.

What am I missing here?




Hmmm,
You are trying to say if I and V is out of phase by certain degree
there will be a current flow which is wasteful. That current does not
do any work. That is why in big industrial site or buildings use power
factor correction device.

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 22:03:35 -0500, clare wrote:

I have given you a couple references that "prove" the ground is not
GENERALLY used as the return...
Just admit it. You don't like to be "wrong" - but in this case, you
and the sources you reference ARE.

People here know me. I'm civil. I stick to facts. I document them.

As far as *I* can tell, the earth is used as the return path for
electrons back to the power company in the typical US power grid.

Here are some references which say this sentence, verbatim:
"The power company essentially uses the earth as one of
the wires in the power system. The earth is a pretty good
conductor and it is huge, so it makes a good return path
for electrons."

Can all these people, courses, and companies really be dead wrong?

PowerPoint presentation from Fundamentals of Electricity & Electronics:
http://freezow.weebly.com/uploads/2/...e2023_wk06.ppt

EE Class at Smith College in Massachusetts:
http://www.science.smith.edu/~jcarde...ecPwr_HSW.html

Word document on "How Power Grids Work" for a Massachusetts school:
http://www.rcmahar.org/ahartshorn/fi...le-and-Qs.docx

Power Generation Specialists:
http://www.galpower.com/en/resources...owitworks.aspx

Green Lantern Electric Company in California:
http://www.green-lantern-electric.com/Electricity.html

Word document on "How Electricity Works" by a Radio Club:
http://www.rcwa.org/Training/How%20E...y%20Basics.doc

Physics Forum:
http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=429670

Megger Electricity Forum:
http://www.electricityforum.com/elec...-it-works.html

Electrical energy monitoring company in Delewa
http://www.powerkuff.com/Download_Electricity.pdf

Elements of Electricity
http://sandytechprod.wikispaces.com/...lectricity.pdf

Word document from Covenent University
http://eprints.covenantuniversity.ed.../1/BLD223.docx

etc.

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 00:58:15 -0500, gfretwell wrote:

A small amount of the unbalanced neutral current does go back through
the ground. You can see it on the ground wire going up the pole to the
XO on the pole pig.
http://gfretwell.com/electrical/Pole...my%20house.jpg

That is a gorgeously illustrative picture!

I see 860mA of current going through that wire into the ground on
your side of the transformer.

I presume 860mA would be considered indicative of a reasonably
well balanced set of loads inside your home?

This is the voltage drop across the service cable from the pole
to the house.
http://gfretwell.com/electrical/VD%20on%20drop.jpg

Another beautiful picture! Is that 142mV RMS?
If so, there's essentially no voltage drop from the transformer
to the home. Right?

There is also quite a bit of voltage drop on the primary and that
shows up through the ground wire.
This is the first pole on the street.
http://gfretwell.com/electrical/First%20xfmr.jpg

That picture seems to show 2.95A flowing through the ground wire!

If that is on the primary side, wouldn't *that* be the current
which is (essentially) flowing back to the power company?

No, houses very rarely have power factor correction. Most of the reason why is that electrical utilities only charge their residential customers on the actual kilowatts they used, not the KVA the consumed. So, why have power factor correction if it's not going to save you any money on your electric bill?

I'm saying that in the real life situation, electrical loads being carried by L1 and L2 are rarely ever going to be perfectly balanced. The result is always going to be some timing differences in the current sine waves travelling in the white wires returning to the electrical panel. The result is going to be a "net current sine wave" as a result of superposition of all the individual current sine waves in the neutral buss in the main panel.

You can't have current without voltage. Ergo, there is always going to be some net voltage sine wave in that neutral buss, and therefore in the ground wire cable coming out of the main panel. So, how can you NOT have current into and out of the Good Earth through the grounding rod or pipe if there is a voltage imposed on that grounding cable by the white buss?

I'm not saying that current flows back to the generating station through the ground. Or, at least, I'm not saying that yet.

I'm saying that electrical loads are rarely going to be perfectly balanced, and any imbalance in the impedance of electrical loads is going to cause timing differences in the amperage sine waves carried by the white wires connected to the neutral buss in the main panel. That means there HAS TO BE some net voltage sine wave in that neutral buss to drive that net current sine wave.

And, I can't see why a net voltage sine wave in the neutral buss wouldn't cause current flow into and out of the Good Earth at the grounding rod or plumbing pipe.

And, according to one of the pictures posted by G. Fretwell, the current measured through his grounding rod is 0.142 amps. And that's without any intentional effort to imbalance the electrical load at the main panel.

Where am I wrong there?

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 05:07:43 +0000 (UTC), Danny D'Amico
wrote:

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 21:52:34 -0500, clare wrote:

Only in some rather rare circumstances is the "ground" actually used
in place of a current carrying conductor

This reference from Smith College, Northampton, MA:
http://www.science.smith.edu/~jcarde...ecPwr_HSW.html

Says:
"The power company essentially uses the earth as one of
the wires in the power system. The earth is a pretty good
conductor and it is huge, so it makes a good return path
for electrons."

That's from an EE class:
http://www.science.smith.edu/~jcardell/Courses/EGR220/
EGR 220, Spring 2013, Engineering Circuit Theory

Taught by Judith Cardell, who researches this stuff:
http://www.science.smith.edu/~jcardell/

She should know, shouldn't she?
She is referring to the "safety groun d", not the neutral, or she is
"dumming it down". It IS still used as a ground return on a VERY small
basis in very limitted locations - as SWERT.

She SHOULD know, but obviously is not expressing her knowledge very
well.