On Tuesday, November 26, 2013 3:26:15 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 11:49:22 -0800 (PST), TimR

wrote:



After bud's excellent explanation, we can see that Danny is almost right..



The ground IS a parallel path for return, but most of the current will flow along the neutral wire.



If there's not a neutral wire, then..........no don't go there. Yet.



Back to that single phase feeding the house from the transformer secondary for a second.



The center tap of that transformer is bonded to ground. That gives us a zero reference. But that technically is not necessary. Your house would work fine without it. Your oven would still "see" 240 volts and your lights 120. The problem is you might have a voltage difference between some of your equipment and ground.



But transformers are not limited to one tap. This secondary could easily be tapped at 60, 120, 180 and 240 volts referenced from tap to "low" terminal.



Do I now have 4-phase power? Do I have four legs out of phase?



At a certain point we have to stop all of the "phase" BS and just say

this is single phase. Anything else is just wrong. Split phase refers

to the way some motors are wound and two phase is something else

altogether (4 wires with 2 phases 90 degrees out)

Standard 120/240v service is single phase that just happens to be

grounded on the center tap.

Tell that to the IEEE power engineers. From the absract of a paper presented
at a recent IEEE conference of power engineers:

http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/artic...number=4520128

"Distribution engineers have treated the standard "singlephase" distribution transformer connection as single phase because from the primary side of the transformer these connections are single phase and in the case of standard rural distribution single phase line to ground. However, with the advent of detailed circuit modeling we are beginning to see distribution modeling and analysis being accomplished past the transformer to the secondary. Which now brings into focus the reality that standard 120/240 secondary systems are not single phase line to ground systems, instead they are three wire systems with two phases and one ground wires. Further, the standard 120/240 secondary is different from the two phase primary system in that the secondary phases are separated by 180 degrees instead of three phases separated by 120 degrees."


I'm still waiting for you to explain your definition of the word phase.
Should be easy, as it's a very basic engineering term. If you know what
it is, then why can't you define it?

On Tuesday, November 26, 2013 2:49:22 PM UTC-5, TimR wrote:
After bud's excellent explanation, we can see that Danny is almost right.



And how exactly is that? He claimed that the earth is used as
the return path for delivering poser. That isn't anywhere close
to being "almost right".



The ground IS a parallel path for return, but most of the current will flow along the neutral wire.


Most of the current doesn't even have to flow on the neutral back to
the power plant. Look at a balanced 3 phase load. What does the world look like to the power plant?




If there's not a neutral wire, then..........no don't go there. Yet.



Why not?




Back to that single phase feeding the house from the transformer secondary for a second.



The center tap of that transformer is bonded to ground. That gives us a zero reference. But that technically is not necessary. Your house would work fine without it. Your oven would still "see" 240 volts and your lights 120. The problem is you might have a voltage difference between some of your equipment and ground.



That is correct.



But transformers are not limited to one tap. This secondary could easily be tapped at 60, 120, 180 and 240 volts referenced from tap to "low" terminal.



Do I now have 4-phase power? Do I have four legs out of phase?

Now you've gone off the rails and I have no idea what point you're
trying to make. Somehow you're conflating too seperate discussions here.
One is the concept of the phases present in a split-phase service.
The other is whether the earth is a return path used for power
delivery. The two have nothing to do with each other.

On Tuesday, November 26, 2013 5:34:45 PM UTC-5, bud-- wrote:
On 11/26/2013 11:46 AM, wrote:

On Tuesday, November 26, 2013 11:04:53 AM UTC-5, bud-- wrote:

On 11/25/2013 11:07 PM, Danny D'Amico wrote:

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 21:52:34 -0500, clare wrote:



Only in some rather rare circumstances is the "ground" actually used

in place of a current carrying conductor



This reference from Smith College, Northampton, MA:

http://www.science.smith.edu/~jcarde...ecPwr_HSW.html



Says:

"The power company essentially uses the earth as one of

the wires in the power system. The earth is a pretty good

conductor and it is huge, so it makes a good return path

for electrons."

It is fatally flawed, as described in another post.



That's from an EE class:

http://www.science.smith.edu/~jcardell/Courses/EGR220/

EGR 220, Spring 2013, Engineering Circuit Theory



It is not from an EE class.



It is something Smith College picked up from somewhere. As far is I know

it was not written by anyone ever associated with the college.



Taught by Judith Cardell, who researches this stuff:

http://www.science.smith.edu/~jcardell/



She should know, shouldn't she?



What should she know? She didn't write the piece at the top.



Why does everyone who understands power distribution disagree with you?



Bud-



The one and only place AFAIK that all of this is coming from is the website

"How stuff works". That link at the top produces the piece apparently

authored by Marshal Brain. As I understand it, he's the creator of

the "How stuff works" website. ALL the references Danny has are

either the exact verbage from there repeated, a link back to it,

or a copy thereof.



I didn't read Danny's other sources. I am really tired of his arguments.

Interesting they are all the same thing.



I did see that Brain started "How things work" (I have seen other

nonsense at that site).



Brain is presumably an EE. When I graduated there had been no reference

to the NEC, and no practical information about power systems, and in

particular earthing. Brain certainly shows no comprehension. krw, I

think, said most EE course work is electronics. There are at least 3

other EEs here. I haven't noticed any have particular information on

power distribution that they got in school.



You would hope that an assistant prof would

check the stuff, but who knows if she did, who actually posted it

as part of the course, etc. You also have to wonder about any college

that uses stuff from "How stuff works" for course material.



I have not figured out how "she" has anything to do with the "piece"

except "she" is a prof at the same college that put up the "piece".


Well that'a a good point too. You're right. I was giving Danny
the benefit of the doubt that the piece he keeps referencing from
"How stuff works", was included as part of the course at Smith College.
But you're right, from the link provided, it just shows that it's
hosted at the college. Not sure by who or for what purpose.
It's also worth noting that Smith is pretty much a liberal arts
college, not an engineering power house.

It looks like a lot of people have glommed on to that piece.
Probably because it readily comes up when you do a search for
that kind of thing, it appears to be a nice short tutorial
on the subject. But as you say, it's seriously flawed. The sad
thing is that Danny seemed to finally get the idea of the difference
between netural and ground in a residential service.

You and I have pointed out inconsistencies in that piece, eg,
interchanging usage of ground and neutral, saying that power is
transmitted via 3 phase and a 4th neutral/ground and then saying
power relies on the earth for return. You would hope that he could
start to think in terms of what he learned about neutral and ground
in a 240/120V service and start to question that piece himself.

A good question he should ask himself is, if using the earth is
how it's done for power transmission, then why isn't it also done
for that 240/120V service? Why use a neutral at all? The transformer
and house are both connected via earth, so just get rid of all the
neutrals. Think of the cost savings...... So, why do we have a
neutral in the 240/120V service?

Note: For the less informend, I'm only suggesting he think about
that as a rhetorical question.





But Danny found it on the internet....





Hey, didja hear that O J Simpson was framed by Romulans that beamed down

from a cloaked war-bird and tampered with the evidence in the crime lab.

If you don't believe it show me someone who says it isn't true.

LOL.

On Wed, 27 Nov 2013 01:32:13 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote:

wrote in :

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 19:18:41 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote:

wrote in :

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 03:09:10 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote:

wrote in :

The "neutral" is NEVER bare in North America (except in some parts
of rural Sakatchewan Canada, where single wire earth return IS
actually still in limited use)

Absolute nonsense. You see bare neutrals all over the place in rural areas of the U.S.
with
overhead service.

http://www.southwire.com/products/Tr...erviceDrop.htm

Don't you think it's time you stopped assuming that what is true in your [obviously
limited]
experience is true everywhere?
In DISTRIBUTION, yes - but not on the "consumer" side.

Wrong again. Triplex cable (see link above) isn't used for distribution anywhere in the
U.S.
that I'm aware of -- it is, however, very commonly used for service drops (from the
transformer to the customer's service mast).

Like I said... don't you think it's time you stopped assuming that what is true in your
obviously limited experience is true everywhere?
It is "distribution" untill it enters the building., or mast.

Maybe you need to look again at the title of the thread -- which has been *entirely* about
how service entrances are wired.

Bare neutrals on service entrances are very common, your delusions to the contrary
notwithstanding.
To be totally fair, this turkey has been all over the map.

As for LIMITED experience, I've worked on electrical systems in 3 very
widely differing areas of the world - east/central Africa, West
Africa, and Canada - both rural and urban.

On Tuesday, November 26, 2013 6:59:17 PM UTC-5, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 11/25/13 5:33 PM, Danny D'Amico wrote:



Cut a bunch to keep AIOE happy.



Now, that does not prove that the earth is the return path

for the electricity back to the power company, but, it is clearly

a half dozen (or so) references which say what I've always thought

was the case.



That means that the idea isn't so far fetched as it may appear.

Admittedly, most of these references were cut out of the same

mold (probably due to my search terms?), so I welcome someone

who can find a reference that says the earth is *not* the return

path for the HVAC typical power generated in the USA.





Article here http://preview.tinyurl.com/mxd4xb2

talking about power distribution. It was written by a fella with a BSEE

and an MSEE. He spent a bunch of years working in the power industry.

He writes about a possible project in Alaska. Single wire earth

return similar to what the Aussies do.



He says:

A single wire, ground return circuit will require a waiver from the

Alaska legislature or Department of Labor since it does not comply with

the NESC. However, the author does not believe that the single

conductor, earth return circuit should be considered and firmly believes

that a multi-grounded, neutral be considered on all single phase and

three-phase, four-wire circuits.

End quote.



The fact that using the earth return system requires a waiver implies

that it is used very infrequently.

Nice find. I concur with your assessment. And I'd say a paper from
an IEEE fellow trumps "How stuff works".

On Tuesday, November 26, 2013 7:14:52 PM UTC-5, John G wrote:
Danny D'Amico brought next idea :

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 08:19:28 -0500, clare wrote:



That is definitely NOT college level electrical engineering. Looks

like a junior college introduction course to me.







I won't go into a discussion of how facts at a junior college are any

different than facts at a high school or university, or even those same

facts at the power company (the references I cited were from industry also),

simply because, I'll lose any argument like that on the net due to the

old adage...



And, I'll stop asking for references that state the currents *don't* go

back to the power company transformers through the ground...



I will simply continue to locate, read, and quote sources that explain the

return path for current, back to the power company's transformers.



The more I read, the more I find that this return path is not

straightforward.



There are local loops, where the math can get complex, so, I'm trying to

unwind this wye-versus-delta thing as we speak ...



Here's a good starter paper on what those ground paths back to the power

supply transformers looks like that I am still reading with great interest:

www.dataforth.com/catalog/pdf/an108.pdf



That's from a company that makes isolation transformers, so, they're not

"junior college" level, right?



Did you READ the Preamble to that paper you are quoting??



The NEC, National Electrical Code(Ref.4) requires the installation of

grounds for safety and does NOT allow load currents in ground lines.



Ther is your proof. The NEC is the Electrical BIBLE :')



--

John G

Doh! Nice find.

On Tuesday, November 26, 2013 7:50:43 PM UTC-5, Ron wrote:
On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 18:26:25 -0500, Ed wrote:



On 11/26/2013 04:48 PM, nestork wrote:

I think Danny now has a much better idea of how his electrical panel

works, and it's really just that part that matters. If he uses the

technically incorrect but easy to understand notion that power is

delivered by the L1 and L2 power cables that distribute power

throughout his house on red and black wires, and returns back to the

panel on the white wires, and that the L1 and L2 power sources are each

120 VAC relative to the neutral, but 180 degrees out of phase so that

there's 240 VAC between them, then he knows more than most homeowners

and enough not to electrocude himself, and that's what counts.



So I'm confused. Are my 240 volt appliances single phase or two phase?



Look on the manufacturers name plate...you'll likely see that it is

single phase.



L1 to L2 is 240 volt single phase. The center / neutral tap is not

needed for 240 volt service.



The 2 phase claim is bogus.



Beware of trolls.

The IEEE is made up of trolls? From an IEEE published paper given
at a recent IEEE conference on power engineering. You couldn't ask
for a more credible source:

http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/artic...number=4520128


"Distribution engineers have treated the standard "singlephase" distribution transformer connection as single phase because from the primary side of the transformer these connections are single phase and in the case of standard rural distribution single phase line to ground. However, with the advent of detailed circuit modeling we are beginning to see distribution modeling and analysis being accomplished past the transformer to the secondary. Which now brings into focus the reality that standard 120/240 secondary systems are not single phase line to ground systems, instead they are three wire systems with two phases and one ground wires. Further, the standard 120/240 secondary is different from the two phase primary system in that the secondary phases are separated by 180 degrees instead of three phases separated by 120 degrees."


Or how about some electrical eqpt manufacturers:

http://www.behlman.com/applications/AC%20basics.pdf

http://www.samlexamerica.com/support...Circuit s.pdf

On Tuesday, November 26, 2013 8:04:48 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 11:49:22 -0800 (PST), TimR

wrote:



After bud's excellent explanation, we can see that Danny is almost right..



No, he's not.



The ground IS a parallel path for return, but most of the current will flow along the neutral wire.



He's talking about the return though the Earth (capital 'E'). That

just doesn't happen to any degree.



If there's not a neutral wire, then..........no don't go there. Yet.



Then you're screwed. Really bizarre things happen. BTDT.



Back to that single phase feeding the house from the transformer secondary for a second.



The center tap of that transformer is bonded to ground. That gives us a zero reference.



Google groupie's mess unfolded



But that technically is not necessary.



It *IS* necessary.



Your house would work fine without it.



Nope. You wouldn't have both 120 and 240 available.



Of course it would work. You just would not have the transformer
bonded to ground.



Your oven would still "see" 240 volts and your lights 120.



Not without that center tap connected to the neutral, it wouldn't.



Apparently you not only can't read IEEE papers, you can't read
what anyone said. He's clearly not talking about eliminating the
neutral, he's only talking about not earthing it.




The problem is you might have a voltage difference between some of your equipment and ground.



I'm not sure what you're saying, now. You said the center-tapped

transformer wasn't necessary.

He never said that.

If you mean that only the ground bond

from the center tap to ground was unnecessary, well, yeah, if you

don't mind electrocution.



It only took you about 6 tries to get it right.




But transformers are not limited to one tap.



OK... (gotta see where this is going...)



This secondary could easily be tapped at 60, 120, 180 and 240 volts referenced from tap to "low" terminal.



OK, but why



Now that is indeed a good question. He's taken a turn here
that I don't think anyone can figure out.



Do I now have 4-phase power?



Of course not. Starting with one phase you can only have one phase.



The IEEE says you're wrong.


You can't make another. With two phases, you can make any number you

want, though.



Do I have four legs out of phase?



No, they're in phase, just like they are with the classical Edison

connection. That's what Trader can't get through his skull.


Funny thing, I have the IEEE agreeing with me. From a recent IEEE published
paper delivered at an IEEE conference of power engineers.

http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/artic...number=4520128

"Distribution engineers have treated the standard "singlephase" distribution transformer connection as single phase because from the primary side of the transformer these connections are single phase and in the case of standard rural distribution single phase line to ground. However, with the advent of detailed circuit modeling we are beginning to see distribution modeling and analysis being accomplished past the transformer to the secondary. Which now brings into focus the reality that standard 120/240 secondary systems are not single phase line to ground systems, instead they are three wire systems with two phases and one ground wires. Further, the standard 120/240 secondary is different from the two phase primary system in that the secondary phases are separated by 180 degrees instead of three phases separated by 120 degrees."

Pay special attention to those last two sentences.
And just in case you want to claim this is some lightweight engineer,
here's a link to the multitude of IEEE papers he's authored:

http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/search/se....QT.Kersti ng, W.H..QT.&newsearch=true

So, the IEEE is wrong too?

"Harold W." wrote in message news
scrit:

One place that got it wrong, cited 10 times,
doesn't make it right.

I was taught the same thing, and I'm an Industrial Engineer.

Most EEs don't learn power distribution. Most learn basic
transistor theory.

But, when they cover it, at least for us, they tell us that
the earth is the return.

But why does it matter if it's not? It doesn't change the
wiring either way.


Sure it does. Eggs are just eggs, right? Scrambled is the same
as easy-over as poached is the same as a soufflé. Right?

wrote in message news
I believe most generators in the use are Delta, where loads, as you
state, are Wye. Transimisson is Delta as is most distribution, IIRC.

Most, that I have installed, are Wye. Onsite protection of these units
is simpler and more cost effective. 3+ units going straight onto grid
as Wye (stepped up, of course) or a Wye-Delta step-up. However, most
long range delivery is done via a pure Delta (no neutral) system.

The type of transformer system depends on where on the grid the sub-system
is pulling from, and if the utility wants to cooperate with the end-user.
In certain situations they will tell you to bugger off since you might be
the only service trying to pull a Wye drop in a 90%+ Delta grid. I know
of one machine shop that begged for a Wye service to gain 1/3 more 120V
branch circuits out of their almost overloaded 1200 amp Delta service.
The answer was no, unless they wanted to pay for the entire switch over.

It was cheaper to purchase a Delta-Wye transformer and have a new drop
brought in and have all of the 120V circuits transferred over to the 120/
208 panels. Total PITA to accomplish, but allowed the original service
to gain some breaker spaces, equalize the load distribution to all phases,
and permitted the installation of a couple more three phase mills and some
headroom for that poor, old, tired Delta service. On hot days that thing
would be around 1% away from going critical. This was with cooling added
to the distribution panel.

wrote in message ...
On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 19:59:22 -0600, Nightcrawler®
wrote:


"Danny D'Amico" wrote in message ...
On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 15:10:28 -0500, clare wrote:

Maybe that's odd, for the USA though, 'cuz everyone is saying that
the neutral is normally bare.


No, they are not.

Entering the house (on the PowerCo's side of the meter), it often is
bare. There isn't much reason to insulate it since it's tied to
ground at both ends (and is out of reach in the rare case of a fault).

I am aware of this. It is a weight/cost saving move. It is also a fusible
link. :-) Just hope the fuse on the pig blows.

"TimR" wrote in message ...
After bud's excellent explanation, we can see that Danny is almost right.

The ground IS a parallel path for return, but most of the current will flow along the neutral wire.

If there's not a neutral wire, then..........no don't go there. Yet.

Back to that single phase feeding the house from the transformer secondary for a second.

The center tap of that transformer is bonded to ground. That gives us a zero reference. But that technically is not necessary.
Your house would work fine without it. Your oven would still "see" 240 volts and your lights 120. The problem is you might have
a voltage difference between some of your equipment and ground.

But transformers are not limited to one tap. This secondary could easily be tapped at 60, 120, 180 and 240 volts referenced from
tap to "low" terminal.

Do I now have 4-phase power? Do I have four legs out of phase?

I think that what you are trying to say is that an open neutral may have
an adverse reaction with some 120V devices. However, the reference is not
zero. Hehe, it is Earth.

wrote in message ...


Most of the current doesn't even have to flow on the neutral back to
the power plant. Look at a balanced 3 phase load. What does the world look like to the power plant?

I do believe that none of the neutral current is carried back to the
power plant. As you might describe it, with your scope, the neutral
is pulling from another phase to make up the imbalance. So, pulling
from the power plant via a different leg.

"bud--" wrote in message b.com...

Hey, didja hear that O J Simpson was framed by Romulans that beamed down
from a cloaked war-bird and tampered with the evidence in the crime lab.
If you don't believe it show me someone who says it isn't true.

LOL!

Um, that's bad, m'kay?

On Tuesday, November 26, 2013 10:27:50 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 18:00:47 -0800 (PST), "

wrote:



On Tuesday, November 26, 2013 3:26:15 PM UTC-5, wrote:

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 11:49:22 -0800 (PST), TimR



wrote:







After bud's excellent explanation, we can see that Danny is almost right.







The ground IS a parallel path for return, but most of the current will flow along the neutral wire.







If there's not a neutral wire, then..........no don't go there. Yet.







Back to that single phase feeding the house from the transformer secondary for a second.







The center tap of that transformer is bonded to ground. That gives us a zero reference. But that technically is not necessary. Your house would work fine without it. Your oven would still "see" 240 volts and your lights 120. The problem is you might have a voltage difference between some of your equipment and ground.







But transformers are not limited to one tap. This secondary could easily be tapped at 60, 120, 180 and 240 volts referenced from tap to "low" terminal.







Do I now have 4-phase power? Do I have four legs out of phase?







At a certain point we have to stop all of the "phase" BS and just say



this is single phase. Anything else is just wrong. Split phase refers



to the way some motors are wound and two phase is something else



altogether (4 wires with 2 phases 90 degrees out)



Standard 120/240v service is single phase that just happens to be



grounded on the center tap.



Tell that to the IEEE power engineers. From the absract of a paper presented

at a recent IEEE conference of power engineers:



http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/artic...number=4520128



"Distribution engineers have treated the standard "singlephase" distribution transformer connection as single phase because from the primary side of the transformer these connections are single phase and in the case of standard rural distribution single phase line to ground. However, with the advent of detailed circuit modeling we are beginning to see distribution modeling and analysis being accomplished past the transformer to the secondary. Which now brings into focus the reality that standard 120/240 secondary systems are not single phase line to ground systems, instead they are three wire systems with two phases and one ground wires. Further, the standard 120/240 secondary is different from the two phase primary system in that the secondary phases are separated by 180 degrees instead of three phases separated by 120 degrees."





I'm still waiting for you to explain your definition of the word phase.

Should be easy, as it's a very basic engineering term. If you know what

it is, then why can't you define it?



They are confusing "phase" with "ungrounded conductor"



Two points:

1 - Who is the "they" that are confused? The IEEE engineers at a power engineering conference? The IEEE peer reviewed publication? The author
of so many very technical papers published by the IEEE? The two manufacturers
of electrical eqpt with white papers?

2 - Saying "they are confusing phase" isn't a definition of phase.

Why is it that no one that says I'm wrong can give their definition
of a very basic electrical engineering term? Until you can define it,
what's the point? I gave my definition, which I believe is consistent
with it's use in the broadest sense of electrical engineering days ago.



Two ungrounded conductors that are 180 degrees out of phase are simply

single phase, looked at from different ends.



If you draw a line from the north pole to the south pole, it is still

one line, no matter which end you look at it from.

And the north pole still differs by approximately 180 deg from the south pole.
In essence, someone stating that, with regard to split-phase, ie that the two
legs are 180 deg opposite in phase, is what started all this.

all snip

Anyone notice that most of these "How it" whatever websites,
Discovery channel shows, and such, get the physical aspect of
manufacture down (duh, they are filming it), but they always seem
to pull something out of their butts when trying to explain the
science behind how something works? I think this is caused by
having professional writers only having a limited knowledge of
what it is that they are writing about, and winging it when an
item of confusion comes along. Peer review of the final script
obviously is not in the cards.

"Ralph Mowery" wrote in message ...

"John G" wrote in message
. au...
In case you did not realise proof of NEGATIVES is very often hard to find
in any field of endevour. :-?



Negatives are difficult to find any mention of. If I say the sun is green,
I doubt anyone could find any refferance that it is not. You will find
plenty that will call it yellow.



Does this mean that the sky is no longer blue?

On Wed, 27 Nov 2013 11:24:25 +1100, John G wrote:

You are as dumb as the OP Danny :|

Let's stay civil here ...

This is a discussion.

We're not all electrical engineers.

We're all just homeowners.

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 07:00:47 -0800, wrote:

there isn't anything there that says power plants use
the earth as a return path.

Ok. You win.

On Wed, 27 Nov 2013 11:14:52 +1100, John G wrote:

The NEC, National Electrical Code(Ref.4) requires the installation of
grounds for safety and does NOT allow load currents in ground lines.

Ok. You win.

There are no ground currents.

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 07:09:18 -0800, wrote:

Fine, so then we're back to you being wrong.

Ok. You win.

On Wed, 27 Nov 2013 11:01:51 +1100, John G wrote:

In case you did not realise proof of NEGATIVES is very often hard to
find in any field of endevour. :-?

??

As I said way back in the beginning of this long thread-- GO to a real
College and learn the principles of Electricity :-?

OK. You win.

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 19:11:54 -0500, Ralph Mowery wrote:

Negatives are difficult to find any mention of. If I say the sun is green,
I doubt anyone could find any refferance that it is not. You will find
plenty that will call it yellow.

Hi Ralph,

If a LOT of people think that you get a cold from being cold, then
you can rest assured that an MD would explain that you get colds
from viruses.

If a some people think that AIDS can be transmitted by a sneeze,
then you can rest assured that another MD will explain that it's
not transmitted that way.

If a group of people think that high octane gas is more "powerful"
than lower-octane rated fuels, then you can rest assured that the
Gasoline FAQ will explain what an octane rating really means.

If some lesser educated people confuse who versus whom, or lay
versus lie, then you can rest assured that there will be linguists
who explain the difference, in detail, on the web.

Point is, there are *many* examples of negatives being explained.

Anyway, I'm sick and tired of that part of this discussion, simply
because people are wedded to their views and all they can do is
attack the references, without supplying a single reference to the
contrary (yes, I read the entire 10-page paper on grounding systems,
and it didn't cover that specific point at all, at least not in plain
language that *I* could understand).

Anyway, I learned a lot in this thread, and I, for one, am
grateful for the conversation with my friends and compatriots on
a.h.r, from whom I have the greatest respect.

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 07:11:01 -0800, wrote:

If you post that same verbage from "How stuff works", one more time,
we're all going to throw up.

At least I posted a reference.

Now, if that reference is "fatally flawed", then the dozen sites
that repeated it *should* have vetted the information more fully.

Still, at least I posted a reference that directly discussed the
issue, which is more than those with the opposing view provided.

Note: The 10-page PDF on ground distribution was complex, and,
after reading all ten pages, never *directly* discussed the issue,
although I'm sure I'll be reamed for stating that since the *entire*
paper was all about grounding paths (but very technical).

As a (retired) accountant, we never covered *this* stuff in college
way back when.

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 10:40:04 -0800, wrote:

Which again shows how little you know.

Which is why I had asked the question ...

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 22:48:02 +0100, nestork wrote:

I'm glad that this discussion hasn't turned into an insult hurling
contest as so often happens.

We try to stay civil among our a.h.r friends!

I think Danny now has a much better idea of how his electrical panel
works, and it's really just that part that matters.

Yes. Indeed. Thank you *all* very much.

I especially loved the gfretwell pictures (they were gorgeous!).
I can't wait to get an ammeter to test my currents at the pole!

If he uses the technically incorrect but easy to understand notion
then he knows more than most homeowners and enough not to
electrocute himself, and that's what counts.

I agree. Since I'm *not* an EE, and never will be, I'm *just* a
homeowner, who wants to understand a bit more than I did.

And now, I do. I can recognize now things in my main breakers
that I never noticed before, and, I can recognize similar things
in my three subpanels.

This is all good information!

Thanks.

On Wednesday, November 27, 2013 1:32:04 AM UTC-5, Danny D'Amico wrote:
On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 10:40:04 -0800, wrote:



Which again shows how little you know.



Which is why I had asked the question ...

It's not that you asked the question, it's that you wouldn't accept
the answer even after it's been explained to you by several EE's,
electricians, etc. And we did give you references along the way,
you just didn't even acknowledge most of them. Including the one
I gave you from Wikepedia that shows how power is transmitted from
a 3 phase power source to a 3 phase load, the current flows, and
it can be done over just the 3 phase wires. There is no earth path
there and if you looked at the animation, you can see that it's
not needed.

Here's another puzzling angle. You appeared to understand the
difference between a neutral and ground in your own panel after
it was explained to you. Well, if using the earth as a return
path for power is how power is routinely deliverd, what is that
neutral doing there? Why waste money on it? The center tap of
the transformer is grounded, your house neutral bar is grounded.
They are only a couple hundred feet away.
So, why do they have that neutral wire there if the earth is just
as good?

On Wednesday, November 27, 2013 1:35:08 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 20:54:23 -0800 (PST), "

wrote:



They are confusing "phase" with "ungrounded conductor"







Two points:



1 - Who is the "they" that are confused? The IEEE engineers at a power engineering conference? The IEEE peer reviewed publication? The author

of so many very technical papers published by the IEEE? The two manufacturers

of electrical eqpt with white papers?



2 - Saying "they are confusing phase" isn't a definition of phase.



Why is it that no one that says I'm wrong can give their definition

of a very basic electrical engineering term? Until you can define it,

what's the point? I gave my definition, which I believe is consistent

with it's use in the broadest sense of electrical engineering days ago.







Two ungrounded conductors that are 180 degrees out of phase are simply



single phase, looked at from different ends.







If you draw a line from the north pole to the south pole, it is still



one line, no matter which end you look at it from.



And the north pole still differs by approximately 180 deg from the south pole.

In essence, someone stating that, with regard to split-phase, ie that the two

legs are 180 deg opposite in phase, is what started all this.



I imagine I could get an argument started at an IEEE meeting about

what you call single phase too but it would not happen at an IAEI

meeting.

Except of course there is no evidence that there was ever any
argument. The paper was presented by an IEEE engineer with a long
list of technical papers on power systems, power systems modeling,
etc. It was presented at an IEEE conference on power engineering.
It was published by the IEEE.


If you are talking about things in the NEC, the definition is

well established.



The definition of what? You've hurled insults, that I'm confused
or know very little. All I've asked of you is to define the
electrical engineering term phase. Yet, you can't do that.

I asked the question about a multiple tap transformer because I don't understand the details about how a part of a circuit gets "out of phase."

We're using the word phase in several different ways and that's part of the confusion at least for me.

I'm not sure it makes sense to say the two lines of a 240 volt service are 180 degrees out of phase even if technically they are, because that seems to imply a two phase supply, and that you can create an infinite number of phases with a multiple tap transformer.

In my blissful ignorance I just always considered one line to be +120 volts referenced to ground, and the other -120 volts. I'm pretty sure that's wrong, but at least it's not confusing.

I admit I don't understand the fine details here. So, suppose I take my 120 volt singlephase house current, and I connect two incandescent light bulbs in series, each with a resistance of 60 ohms. Total resistance is now 120 ohms so I should have 1 ampere of current flowing. If I measure the voltage across both bulbs I should have 120 volts; but if I measure from between the two light bulbs in either direction I will read 60 volts (and the bulbs won't be all that bright). (but I don't care, I'm not going to read by them; this is a thought experiment)

NOW: are those two voltages 180 degrees out of phase? If not, why not? This is exactly analogous to the center tapped transformer, with the sole exception that I didn't ground the center of the lightbulb circuit.

What if I used 4 bulbs? Etc.

On Wednesday, November 27, 2013 9:06:43 AM UTC-5, TimR wrote:
I asked the question about a multiple tap transformer because I don't understand the details about how a part of a circuit gets "out of phase."



We're using the word phase in several different ways and that's part of the confusion at least for me.



I'm not sure it makes sense to say the two lines of a 240 volt service are 180 degrees out of phase even if technically they are, because that seems to imply a two phase supply, and that you can create an infinite number of phases with a multiple tap transformer.



See the new thread I just started on electrical phases. I laid
out an interesting exercise in looking at phase, where I start out
with what everyone here agrees is 3 phase and morph it into two
phase and it's identical, indistinguishable, from split-phase 240/120V.





In my blissful ignorance I just always considered one line to be +120 volts referenced to ground, and the other -120 volts. I'm pretty sure that's wrong, but at least it's not confusing.


It's not wrong. But when you have a periodic waveform and one
wave is the inverse of the other, it's also referred to as an 180 deg
phase difference. That one leg is 180 deg out of phase with the other.
And if you look at those two waveforms on a scope, that is what you see.

Here from white papers from electrical eqpt manufacturers:

http://www.samlexamerica.com/support...Circuit s.pdf

http://www.behlman.com/applications/AC%20basics.pdf



I admit I don't understand the fine details here. So, suppose I take my 120 volt singlephase house current, and I connect two incandescent light bulbs in series, each with a resistance of 60 ohms. Total resistance is now 120 ohms so I should have 1 ampere of current flowing. If I measure the voltage across both bulbs I should have 120 volts; but if I measure from between the two light bulbs in either direction I will read 60 volts (and the bulbs won't be all that bright). (but I don't care, I'm not going to read by them; this is a thought experiment)



NOW: are those two voltages 180 degrees out of phase? If not, why not?

If you look at the ends of the two bulbs referenced to the mid-point,
then yes. When one is +60, the other will be -60. You could hook up
a scope, use the center as the reference, put one probe on the top of
one bulb, the other on the bottom of the other bulb and you'd see two sine waves, 180 deg out of phase. The disagreement is that those on the other
side of this refuse to call that a phase difference. They say it's just
180 deg opposite. Well, when you have two sine waves that are the opposite
of each other, their phase relationship is that they are 180 deg apart.
Which is why I've asked those on the other side 10 times to simply define
the term phase. Yet despite telling me that I'm the one that is
confused, not one of them can define it. How can you speak about
something and not be able to define it?


This is exactly analogous to the center tapped transformer, with the sole exception that I didn't ground the center of the lightbulb circuit.



What if I used 4 bulbs? Etc.

If you use 4 bulbs in series and used the center point as a reference,
you would see +30V, +60V, -30V, -60V again with the sine waves 180 deg
out of phase.

Not very well. Near me, 5,000 people without power.

..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 11/27/2013 09:06 AM, TimR wrote:
I asked the question about a multiple tap transformer because I don't understand the details about how a part of a circuit gets "out of phase."


It is not two phase, it is a single phase sin wave.

AC current changes direction 120 times per second.

At any point in time (with exception of crossing 0), the electricity is either flowing

from L1 thru the neutral to L2

or

from L2 thru the neutral to L1

On 11/27/2013 10:12 AM, Ed wrote:

It is not two phase, it is a single phase sin wave.

AC current changes direction 120 times per second.

At any point in time (with exception of crossing 0), the electricity is
either flowing

from L1 thru the neutral to L2

or

from L2 thru the neutral to L1

So, 60 cycles per second changes 120 times?


--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On Wednesday, November 27, 2013 10:12:35 AM UTC-5, Ed wrote:
On 11/27/2013 09:06 AM, TimR wrote:

I asked the question about a multiple tap transformer because I don't understand the details about how a part of a circuit gets "out of phase."





It is not two phase, it is a single phase sin wave.



AC current changes direction 120 times per second.



At any point in time (with exception of crossing 0), the electricity is either flowing



from L1 thru the neutral to L2



or



from L2 thru the neutral to L1

Tell that to the IEEE power engineers:

http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/artic...number=4520128

"Distribution engineers have treated the standard "singlephase" distribution transformer connection as single phase because from the primary side of the transformer these connections are single phase and in the case of standard rural distribution single phase line to ground. However, with the advent of detailed circuit modeling we are beginning to see distribution modeling and analysis being accomplished past the transformer to the secondary. Which now brings into focus the reality that standard 120/240 secondary systems are not single phase line to ground systems, instead they are three wire systems with two phases and one ground wires. Further, the standard 120/240 secondary is different from the two phase primary system in that the secondary phases are separated by 180 degrees instead of three phases separated by 120 degrees. "

Or these electrical eqpt manufacturers:

http://www.behlman.com/applications/AC%20basics.pdf

http://www.samlexamerica.com/support...Circuit s.pdf

I've asked 12 times now for those of you who claim you can't view
split-phase as having two phases present to give your definition of
"phase". It's pointless to claim anything when you can't define a
simple engineering term.

Also see the other thread I started where I start out with 3 phase
and morph it into 2 phases, indistinguishable fromm what you have in
a 240/120V split phase service.

On Wednesday, November 27, 2013 10:12:35 AM UTC-5, Ed wrote:
On 11/27/2013 09:06 AM, TimR wrote:

I asked the question about a multiple tap transformer because I don't understand the details about how a part of a circuit gets "out of phase."





It is not two phase, it is a single phase sin wave.


I think perhaps you did not read for comprehension.

I did not say it is two phase. I don't believe it is two phase. But clearly there is a phase relationship between part of the wire and another part, in that ON THE SAME WIRE some part of it is 180 degrees out of phase with another.

On Wed, 27 Nov 2013 08:21:24 -0700, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

...snip...

So, 60 cycles per second changes 120 times?



confusing, but yes. the key phrase is 'changes'

take a sine wave at the top goes from forward to reverse, at the bottom
goes from reverse to forward, so in one cycle at 60 Hz, you've changed
direction twice, or 120 times.

The better point might be to ask, "what the hell have you gained by this
type of confusing model/dialogue?"

People should say what they mean, mean what they say; and get on with it.
This thread has turned into a troll's paradise.

On 11/27/2013 10:21 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 11/27/2013 10:12 AM, Ed wrote:

It is not two phase, it is a single phase sin wave.

AC current changes direction 120 times per second.

At any point in time (with exception of crossing 0), the electricity is
either flowing

from L1 thru the neutral to L2

or

from L2 thru the neutral to L1

So, 60 cycles per second changes 120 times?



Yes, reference a 60 hz AC sin wave. It changes direction twice per cycle.

wrote in :


As for LIMITED experience, I've worked on electrical systems in 3 very
widely differing areas of the world - east/central Africa, West
Africa, and Canada - both rural and urban.

Which obviously qualifies you to make sweeping generalities about the entire North American
continent -- NOT.

And yes, I'd say that working on rural African systems *does* qualify as "limited experience".
You clearly don't understand much beyond Canadian codes and practices.

On 11/27/2013 10:42 AM, Ed wrote:
On 11/27/2013 10:21 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 11/27/2013 10:12 AM, Ed wrote:

It is not two phase, it is a single phase sin wave.

AC current changes direction 120 times per second.

So, 60 cycles per second changes 120 times?



Yes, reference a 60 hz AC sin wave. It changes direction twice per cycle.


I'm a church going man. Won't have sin wave in my house!

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On Wednesday, November 27, 2013 9:06:43 AM UTC-5, TimR wrote:
I asked the question about a multiple tap transformer because I don't understand the details about how a part of a circuit gets "out of phase."



We're using the word phase in several different ways and that's part of the confusion at least for me.



I'm not sure it makes sense to say the two lines of a 240 volt service are 180 degrees out of phase even if technically they are, because that seems to imply a two phase supply, and that you can create an infinite number of phases with a multiple tap transformer.



In my blissful ignorance I just always considered one line to be +120 volts referenced to ground, and the other -120 volts. I'm pretty sure that's wrong, but at least it's not confusing.



I admit I don't understand the fine details here. So, suppose I take my 120 volt singlephase house current, and I connect two incandescent light bulbs in series, each with a resistance of 60 ohms. Total resistance is now 120 ohms so I should have 1 ampere of current flowing. If I measure the voltage across both bulbs I should have 120 volts; but if I measure from between the two light bulbs in either direction I will read 60 volts (and the bulbs won't be all that bright). (but I don't care, I'm not going to read by them; this is a thought experiment)



NOW: are those two voltages 180 degrees out of phase? If not, why not? This is exactly analogous to the center tapped transformer, with the sole exception that I didn't ground the center of the lightbulb circuit.



What if I used 4 bulbs? Etc.

"In my blissful ignorance I just always considered one line to be +120 volts referenced to ground, and the other -120 volts. I'm pretty sure that's wrong, but at least it's not confusing."

It is wrong. And while it seems like it's not confusing, it is in fact confusing you. Because AC is neither negative nor positive, it's both. It is - half the time and + the other half.

http://www.nooutage.com/images/s-1500output.gif

Your home power is 120vac between one line and neutral. If you use both hots the peaks of the sine waves are opposite each other. So that when one is on the positive peak the other is on the negative peak. So the voltage is 240vac.