On 11/27/2013 10:58 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 11/27/2013 10:42 AM, Ed wrote:
On 11/27/2013 10:21 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 11/27/2013 10:12 AM, Ed wrote:

It is not two phase, it is a single phase sin wave.

AC current changes direction 120 times per second.

So, 60 cycles per second changes 120 times?



Yes, reference a 60 hz AC sin wave. It changes direction twice per cycle.


I'm a church going man. Won't have sin wave in my house!


ROFLMAO! I'm so used to using the math function sin(Ø) that I forgot it was spelled sine.

On 11/27/2013 10:38 AM, TimR wrote:
On Wednesday, November 27, 2013 10:12:35 AM UTC-5, Ed wrote:
On 11/27/2013 09:06 AM, TimR wrote:

I asked the question about a multiple tap transformer because I don't understand the details about how a part of a circuit gets "out of phase."





It is not two phase, it is a single phase sin wave.


I think perhaps you did not read for comprehension.

I did not say it is two phase. I don't believe it is two phase. But clearly there is a phase relationship between part of the wire and another part, in that ON THE SAME WIRE some part of it is 180 degrees out of phase with another.


Put the reference clip of a dual-trace oscilloscope on L1.

Put the probe for Trace A on the neutral/center tap.

Put the probe for Trace B on L2.

Here's what you'll see:

The scope will display 2 traces in phase sync with each other.

The only difference between traces will be that Trace B will be twice the amplitude of Trace A

On 11/27/2013 10:39 AM, RobertMacy wrote:
This thread has turned into a troll's paradise.

Yah, you're right. There are a whole bunch of 2-phased trolls here.

+1

"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message ...
Not very well. Near me, 5,000 people without power.

.
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message ...

I'm a church going man. Won't have sin wave in my house!

You must be boring to be around on New Year's Eve. :-)

"jamesgang" wrote in message ...

Your home power is 120vac between one line and neutral. If you use both hots the peaks of the sine waves are opposite
each other. So that when one is on the positive peak the other is on the negative peak. So the voltage is 240vac.

Close. The peaks are the same between L1 and L2 (X1 and X2). Positive, or negative.

On 11/27/2013 11:37 AM, Ed wrote:
On 11/27/2013 10:58 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:

Yes, reference a 60 hz AC sin wave. It changes direction twice per
cycle.


I'm a church going man. Won't have sin wave in my house!


ROFLMAO! I'm so used to using the math function sin(Ø) that I forgot it
was spelled sine.

Didn't know that. Nice to provide a laugh,
now and again. Need a laugh, here, after moving
six inches snow off the driveway. And then the
church sidewalk.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 11/27/2013 12:31 PM, Ed wrote:
On 11/27/2013 10:39 AM, RobertMacy wrote:
This thread has turned into a troll's paradise.

Yah, you're right. There are a whole bunch of 2-phased trolls here.

Can't never trust two phased trolls, living
in houses where they pay for sin waves.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 11/27/2013 2:00 PM, Nightcrawler® wrote:

+1

"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
...
Not very well. Near me, 5,000 people without power.

.
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
.


I wonder what people do, in such a case.
Me, I get the generator out. Light a few
stove burners, light off some candles, oil
lamp, that kind of thing.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 11/27/2013 2:01 PM, Nightcrawler® wrote:

"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
...

I'm a church going man. Won't have sin wave in my house!

You must be boring to be around on New Year's Eve. :-)

After the 27th round of "Angels we have heard
on high", a couple people started to gnaw off
their own legs to get away. They weren't at all
impressed when I tried to put them to bed at
9 PM, sleeping separately of course.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message news
On 11/27/2013 12:31 PM, Ed wrote:
On 11/27/2013 10:39 AM, RobertMacy wrote:
This thread has turned into a troll's paradise.

Yah, you're right. There are a whole bunch of 2-phased trolls here.

Can't never trust two phased trolls, living
in houses where they pay for sin waves.

Actually, they only provide the sin waves. You still pay for them...

"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message ...
On 11/27/2013 2:00 PM, Nightcrawler® wrote:

I wonder what people do, in such a case.
Me, I get the generator out. Light a few
stove burners, light off some candles, oil
lamp, that kind of thing.


I used to have a generator. Not here. I do have a 60,000
BTU floor furnace that could double as a stove. As for
electrical stuff, I guess I could suffer without for a bit.
Lights? I don't need no stinking lights! *thump, doh!*

"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message ...
On 11/27/2013 2:01 PM, Nightcrawler® wrote:

"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
...

I'm a church going man. Won't have sin wave in my house!

You must be boring to be around on New Year's Eve. :-)

After the 27th round of "Angels we have heard
on high", a couple people started to gnaw off
their own legs to get away. They weren't at all
impressed when I tried to put them to bed at
9 PM, sleeping separately of course.


Did you nail the windows shut?

On Wed, 27 Nov 2013 10:21:24 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 11/27/2013 10:12 AM, Ed wrote:

It is not two phase, it is a single phase sin wave.

AC current changes direction 120 times per second.

At any point in time (with exception of crossing 0), the electricity is
either flowing

from L1 thru the neutral to L2

or

from L2 thru the neutral to L1

So, 60 cycles per second changes 120 times?
Yes - 60 up and 60 down One cycle inclues both an up and a down.

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 22:35:46 -0600, Nightcrawler®
wrote:


wrote in message news
I believe most generators in the use are Delta, where loads, as you
state, are Wye. Transimisson is Delta as is most distribution, IIRC.

Most, that I have installed, are Wye. Onsite protection of these units
is simpler and more cost effective. 3+ units going straight onto grid
as Wye (stepped up, of course) or a Wye-Delta step-up. However, most
long range delivery is done via a pure Delta (no neutral) system.

You install power company generators? Why would protection be
simpler?

The type of transformer system depends on where on the grid the sub-system
is pulling from, and if the utility wants to cooperate with the end-user.
In certain situations they will tell you to bugger off since you might be
the only service trying to pull a Wye drop in a 90%+ Delta grid. I know
of one machine shop that begged for a Wye service to gain 1/3 more 120V
branch circuits out of their almost overloaded 1200 amp Delta service.
The answer was no, unless they wanted to pay for the entire switch over.

It was cheaper to purchase a Delta-Wye transformer and have a new drop
brought in and have all of the 120V circuits transferred over to the 120/
208 panels. Total PITA to accomplish, but allowed the original service
to gain some breaker spaces, equalize the load distribution to all phases,
and permitted the installation of a couple more three phase mills and some
headroom for that poor, old, tired Delta service. On hot days that thing
would be around 1% away from going critical. This was with cooling added
to the distribution panel.

"Distribution panel"? Are we talking about the same thing?

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 23:00:20 -0600, Nightcrawler®
wrote:


"Ralph Mowery" wrote in message ...

"John G" wrote in message
. au...
In case you did not realise proof of NEGATIVES is very often hard to find
in any field of endevour. :-?



Negatives are difficult to find any mention of. If I say the sun is green,
I doubt anyone could find any refferance that it is not. You will find
plenty that will call it yellow.



Does this mean that the sky is no longer blue?

Hell no. It fell long ago. Just ask any lefty.

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 22:39:43 -0600, Nightcrawler®
wrote:


wrote in message ...
On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 19:59:22 -0600, Nightcrawler®
wrote:


"Danny D'Amico" wrote in message ...
On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 15:10:28 -0500, clare wrote:

Maybe that's odd, for the USA though, 'cuz everyone is saying that
the neutral is normally bare.


No, they are not.

Entering the house (on the PowerCo's side of the meter), it often is
bare. There isn't much reason to insulate it since it's tied to
ground at both ends (and is out of reach in the rare case of a fault).

I am aware of this. It is a weight/cost saving move. It is also a fusible
link. :-) Just hope the fuse on the pig blows.

How is it a fusible link? There can't be more current in the neutral
than in either of the hots.

On Wed, 27 Nov 2013 06:30:39 +0000 (UTC), Danny D'Amico
wrote:

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 07:11:01 -0800, wrote:

If you post that same verbage from "How stuff works", one more time,
we're all going to throw up.

At least I posted a reference.

Now, if that reference is "fatally flawed", then the dozen sites
that repeated it *should* have vetted the information more fully.

You mean like you did before you referenced it?

Still, at least I posted a reference that directly discussed the
issue, which is more than those with the opposing view provided.

Time is short.

Note: The 10-page PDF on ground distribution was complex, and,
after reading all ten pages, never *directly* discussed the issue,
although I'm sure I'll be reamed for stating that since the *entire*
paper was all about grounding paths (but very technical).

As a (retired) accountant, we never covered *this* stuff in college
way back when.

The engineers, here, did.

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 18:50:43 -0600, Ron wrote:

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 18:26:25 -0500, Ed wrote:

On 11/26/2013 04:48 PM, nestork wrote:
I think Danny now has a much better idea of how his electrical panel
works, and it's really just that part that matters. If he uses the
technically incorrect but easy to understand notion that power is
delivered by the L1 and L2 power cables that distribute power
throughout his house on red and black wires, and returns back to the
panel on the white wires, and that the L1 and L2 power sources are each
120 VAC relative to the neutral, but 180 degrees out of phase so that
there's 240 VAC between them, then he knows more than most homeowners
and enough not to electrocude himself, and that's what counts.

So I'm confused. Are my 240 volt appliances single phase or two phase?

Look on the manufacturers name plate...you'll likely see that it is
single phase.

L1 to L2 is 240 volt single phase. The center / neutral tap is not
needed for 240 volt service.

The 2 phase claim is bogus.

Give it up. Trader will never buy it.

Beware of trolls.

Trader is a lot of things, but troll? That would explain...

On Wed, 27 Nov 2013 10:58:04 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 11/27/2013 10:42 AM, Ed wrote:
On 11/27/2013 10:21 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 11/27/2013 10:12 AM, Ed wrote:

It is not two phase, it is a single phase sin wave.

AC current changes direction 120 times per second.

So, 60 cycles per second changes 120 times?



Yes, reference a 60 hz AC sin wave. It changes direction twice per cycle.


I'm a church going man. Won't have sin wave in my house!

Come on. Everyone knows that a sine wave and it changes sign twice
per cycle. ;-)

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 18:55:26 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Tuesday, November 26, 2013 8:04:48 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 11:49:22 -0800 (PST), TimR

wrote:



After bud's excellent explanation, we can see that Danny is almost right.



No, he's not.



The ground IS a parallel path for return, but most of the current will flow along the neutral wire.



He's talking about the return though the Earth (capital 'E'). That

just doesn't happen to any degree.



If there's not a neutral wire, then..........no don't go there. Yet.



Then you're screwed. Really bizarre things happen. BTDT.



Back to that single phase feeding the house from the transformer secondary for a second.



The center tap of that transformer is bonded to ground. That gives us a zero reference.



Google groupie's mess unfolded



But that technically is not necessary.



It *IS* necessary.



Your house would work fine without it.



Nope. You wouldn't have both 120 and 240 available.



Of course it would work. You just would not have the transformer
bonded to ground.

If you had no center tap, you certainly would not. One or the other,
but not both.

Your oven would still "see" 240 volts and your lights 120.



Not without that center tap connected to the neutral, it wouldn't.



Apparently you not only can't read IEEE papers, you can't read
what anyone said. He's clearly not talking about eliminating the
neutral, he's only talking about not earthing it.

You really are a dumb****.

more asinine Trader drivel snipped

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 22:50:36 -0600, Nightcrawler®
wrote:


wrote in message ...


Most of the current doesn't even have to flow on the neutral back to
the power plant. Look at a balanced 3 phase load. What does the world look like to the power plant?

I do believe that none of the neutral current is carried back to the
power plant. As you might describe it, with your scope, the neutral
is pulling from another phase to make up the imbalance. So, pulling
from the power plant via a different leg.

Correct. Trader got his EE degree from Cracker Jax.

On 11/27/13 4:41 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 27 Nov 2013 10:58:04 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 11/27/2013 10:42 AM, Ed wrote:
On 11/27/2013 10:21 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 11/27/2013 10:12 AM, Ed wrote:

It is not two phase, it is a single phase sin wave.

AC current changes direction 120 times per second.

So, 60 cycles per second changes 120 times?



Yes, reference a 60 hz AC sin wave. It changes direction twice per cycle.


I'm a church going man. Won't have sin wave in my house!

Come on. Everyone knows that a sine wave and it changes sign twice
per cycle. ;-)


And that reminds me of the song Signs by the Five Man Electrical
Band.

On 11/27/2013 4:28 PM, Nightcrawler® wrote:

"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
news
On 11/27/2013 12:31 PM, Ed wrote:
On 11/27/2013 10:39 AM, RobertMacy wrote:
This thread has turned into a troll's paradise.

Yah, you're right. There are a whole bunch of 2-phased trolls here.

Can't never trust two phased trolls, living
in houses where they pay for sin waves.

Actually, they only provide the sin waves. You still pay for them...

Can't never trust two phased trolls, living
in houses where they (trolls) pay for sin waves.


--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 11/27/2013 4:31 PM, Nightcrawler® wrote:

I wonder what people do, in such a case.
Me, I get the generator out. Light a few
stove burners, light off some candles, oil
lamp, that kind of thing.


I used to have a generator. Not here. I do have a 60,000
BTU floor furnace that could double as a stove. As for
electrical stuff, I guess I could suffer without for a bit.
Lights? I don't need no stinking lights! *thump, doh!*

Thanks. Got a laugh out of that mental picture.
So totally Homer Simpson, there.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 11/27/2013 4:31 PM, Nightcrawler® wrote:

I'm a church going man. Won't have sin wave in my house!

You must be boring to be around on New Year's Eve. :-)

After the 27th round of "Angels we have heard
on high", a couple people started to gnaw off
their own legs to get away. They weren't at all
impressed when I tried to put them to bed at
9 PM, sleeping separately of course.


Did you nail the windows shut?

Didn't have to, after the freezing rain about
that time of year. But, it sure is a good idea.
And hide the hammer, so they don't bust out the
glass.


--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 11/27/2013 5:41 PM, wrote:
Yes, reference a 60 hz AC sin wave. It changes direction twice per cycle.

I'm a church going man. Won't have sin wave in my house!

Come on. Everyone knows that a sine wave and it changes sign twice
per cycle. ;-)


http://www.clker.com/cliparts/3/0/C/...rn-left-hi.png

http://www.greenvalleyrecycling.ca/i...right_turn.png

http://www.clker.com/cliparts/3/0/C/...rn-left-hi.png

http://www.greenvalleyrecycling.ca/i...right_turn.png

http://www.clker.com/cliparts/3/0/C/...rn-left-hi.png

http://www.greenvalleyrecycling.ca/i...right_turn.png

http://www.clker.com/cliparts/3/0/C/...rn-left-hi.png

http://www.greenvalleyrecycling.ca/i...right_turn.png

http://www.clker.com/cliparts/3/0/C/...rn-left-hi.png

http://www.greenvalleyrecycling.ca/i...right_turn.png

http://www.clker.com/cliparts/3/0/C/...rn-left-hi.png

http://www.greenvalleyrecycling.ca/i...right_turn.png

http://www.clker.com/cliparts/3/0/C/...rn-left-hi.png

http://www.greenvalleyrecycling.ca/i...right_turn.png

Like that?

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On Wed, 27 Nov 2013 15:31:00 -0600, Nightcrawler®
wrote:


"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message ...
On 11/27/2013 2:00 PM, Nightcrawler® wrote:

I wonder what people do, in such a case.
Me, I get the generator out. Light a few
stove burners, light off some candles, oil
lamp, that kind of thing.


I used to have a generator. Not here. I do have a 60,000
BTU floor furnace that could double as a stove. As for
electrical stuff, I guess I could suffer without for a bit.
Lights? I don't need no stinking lights! *thump, doh!*
That why you're called a night crawler??

On Wed, 27 Nov 2013 18:02:11 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 11/27/2013 5:41 PM, wrote:
Yes, reference a 60 hz AC sin wave. It changes direction twice per cycle.

I'm a church going man. Won't have sin wave in my house!

Come on. Everyone knows that a sine wave and it changes sign twice
per cycle. ;-)


http://www.clker.com/cliparts/3/0/C/...rn-left-hi.png

http://www.greenvalleyrecycling.ca/i...right_turn.png

http://www.clker.com/cliparts/3/0/C/...rn-left-hi.png

http://www.greenvalleyrecycling.ca/i...right_turn.png

http://www.clker.com/cliparts/3/0/C/...rn-left-hi.png

http://www.greenvalleyrecycling.ca/i...right_turn.png

http://www.clker.com/cliparts/3/0/C/...rn-left-hi.png

http://www.greenvalleyrecycling.ca/i...right_turn.png

http://www.clker.com/cliparts/3/0/C/...rn-left-hi.png

http://www.greenvalleyrecycling.ca/i...right_turn.png

http://www.clker.com/cliparts/3/0/C/...rn-left-hi.png

http://www.greenvalleyrecycling.ca/i...right_turn.png

http://www.clker.com/cliparts/3/0/C/...rn-left-hi.png

http://www.greenvalleyrecycling.ca/i...right_turn.png

Like that?

Nope. Not one sine to be seen. However, you did do a good job of
feeding into Dean's post. ;-)

On 11/27/2013 6:37 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 27 Nov 2013 18:02:11 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

Come on. Everyone knows that a sine wave and it changes sign twice
per cycle. ;-)

http://www.clker.com/cliparts/3/0/C/...rn-left-hi.png

http://www.greenvalleyrecycling.ca/i...right_turn.png

Like that?

Nope. Not one sine to be seen. However, you did do a good job of
feeding into Dean's post. ;-)

Here's the wave:
http://static.tumblr.com/tpf5hmn/Toa...waving_gif.gif


--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On Wed, 27 Nov 2013 18:52:07 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 11/27/2013 6:37 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 27 Nov 2013 18:02:11 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

Come on. Everyone knows that a sine wave and it changes sign twice
per cycle. ;-)

http://www.clker.com/cliparts/3/0/C/...rn-left-hi.png

http://www.greenvalleyrecycling.ca/i...right_turn.png

Like that?

Nope. Not one sine to be seen. However, you did do a good job of
feeding into Dean's post. ;-)

Here's the wave:
http://static.tumblr.com/tpf5hmn/Toa...waving_gif.gif

Cute sign, but not a sine to be seen.

On Wednesday, November 27, 2013 12:10:11 PM UTC-5, Ed wrote:
On 11/27/2013 10:38 AM, TimR wrote:

On Wednesday, November 27, 2013 10:12:35 AM UTC-5, Ed wrote:

On 11/27/2013 09:06 AM, TimR wrote:



I asked the question about a multiple tap transformer because I don't understand the details about how a part of a circuit gets "out of phase."











It is not two phase, it is a single phase sin wave.





I think perhaps you did not read for comprehension.



I did not say it is two phase. I don't believe it is two phase. But clearly there is a phase relationship between part of the wire and another part, in that ON THE SAME WIRE some part of it is 180 degrees out of phase with another.





Put the reference clip of a dual-trace oscilloscope on L1.



Put the probe for Trace A on the neutral/center tap.



Put the probe for Trace B on L2.



Here's what you'll see:



The scope will display 2 traces in phase sync with each other.



The only difference between traces will be that Trace B will be twice the amplitude of Trace A

The only problem with that is the accepted reference point
for the system in question is the NEUTRAL/Ground. No one in
their right mind would reference the scope to one of the hot legs.

Don't believe me about two phases, ask the IEEE ppower engineers,
which is about as credible an authority on the subject as you can
get:

http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/artic...number=4520128

"Distribution engineers have treated the standard "singlephase" distribution transformer connection as single phase because from the primary side of the transformer these connections are single phase and in the case of standard rural distribution single phase line to ground. However, with the advent of detailed circuit modeling we are beginning to see distribution modeling and analysis being accomplished past the transformer to the secondary. Which now brings into focus the reality that standard 120/240 secondary systems are not single phase line to ground systems, instead they are three wire systems with two phases and one ground wires. Further, the standard 120/240 secondary is different from the two phase primary system in that the secondary phases are separated by 180 degrees instead of three phases separated by 120 degrees."


Or see the seperate discussion I started where I start out with
3 phase, and show what phases are, how you can morph that step by
step into split-phase using two of the three phases. It winds up
identical to a 240/120V split phase service and one of the phases
doesn't disappear.

BTW, still waiting for one of you alleged experts to define the term
"phase" for me.

On Wednesday, November 27, 2013 5:46:11 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 22:50:36 -0600, Nightcrawler�

wrote:





wrote in message ...





Most of the current doesn't even have to flow on the neutral back to

the power plant. Look at a balanced 3 phase load. What does the world look like to the power plant?



I do believe that none of the neutral current is carried back to the

power plant. As you might describe it, with your scope, the neutral

is pulling from another phase to make up the imbalance. So, pulling

from the power plant via a different leg.



Correct. Trader got his EE degree from Cracker Jax.

He agrees with me. You say correct. And then you hurl another
insult at me. You really are confused here.

On Wednesday, November 27, 2013 5:37:37 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 18:50:43 -0600, Ron wrote:



On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 18:26:25 -0500, Ed wrote:



On 11/26/2013 04:48 PM, nestork wrote:

I think Danny now has a much better idea of how his electrical panel

works, and it's really just that part that matters. If he uses the

technically incorrect but easy to understand notion that power is

delivered by the L1 and L2 power cables that distribute power

throughout his house on red and black wires, and returns back to the

panel on the white wires, and that the L1 and L2 power sources are each

120 VAC relative to the neutral, but 180 degrees out of phase so that

there's 240 VAC between them, then he knows more than most homeowners

and enough not to electrocude himself, and that's what counts.



So I'm confused. Are my 240 volt appliances single phase or two phase?



Look on the manufacturers name plate...you'll likely see that it is

single phase.



L1 to L2 is 240 volt single phase. The center / neutral tap is not

needed for 240 volt service.



The 2 phase claim is bogus.



Give it up. Trader will never buy it.



Neither will the IEEE power engineers:


http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/artic...number=4520128

"Distribution engineers have treated the standard "singlephase" distribution transformer connection as single phase because from the primary side of the transformer these connections are single phase and in the case of standard rural distribution single phase line to ground. However, with the advent of detailed circuit modeling we are beginning to see distribution modeling and analysis being accomplished past the transformer to the secondary. Which now brings into focus the reality that standard 120/240 secondary systems are not single phase line to ground systems, instead they are three wire systems with two phases and one ground wires. Further, the standard 120/240 secondary is different from the two phase primary system in that the secondary phases are separated by 180 degrees instead of three phases separated by 120 degrees."



Beware of trolls.



Trader is a lot of things, but troll? That would explain...

Are the IEEE trolls too? You just hurl insults but refuse to address
the above that clearly shows the IEEE power engineers agree with me.

BTW, still waiting for you to give your definition of "phase".
If you know so much, why can't you do that?

wrote in message ...
On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 22:35:46 -0600, Nightcrawler®
wrote:


wrote in message news
I believe most generators in the use are Delta, where loads, as you
state, are Wye. Transimisson is Delta as is most distribution, IIRC.

Most, that I have installed, are Wye. Onsite protection of these units
is simpler and more cost effective. 3+ units going straight onto grid
as Wye (stepped up, of course) or a Wye-Delta step-up. However, most
long range delivery is done via a pure Delta (no neutral) system.

You install power company generators? Why would protection be
simpler?

I used to install power-plant generators, yes. Not utility
generators. These private plants fed the grid and were under
the ultimate control of the utility, meaning that the utility
could kick them off-line, at will. Most of the plants were
not stand-alone. If the grid went down, they went down. The
gas-turbine plants were stand-alone, and some city service
generation facilities were, also.

Per generator:

A Wye system only has the standard voltage/amperage/frequency/
ground-fault protective systems. Each phase has one bus, two
detection transformers (CT and PT), and the neutral is grounded
through a current transformer. The neutral does not go out
of the plant. The ground fault and generator detection trans-
formers are installed on the generator side of the 52G breaker.

The utility only has one set of detection devices in the plant,
right after the service entry switch. This set-up provides the
best user safety for power generation.

Delta systems are set up primarily the same way with the exception
that they usually do not have a grounded leg, hence, no reference
to ground. To get a reference to ground requires a complicated
and costly system that is separately derived from the direct gener-
ation process. These things take up a lot of space. There is no way
to have these units inside the control room as with the Wye set-
up. Each phase of each generator will have a transformer 1/3 the
size of a standard pole pig. This is quite a footprint. My
memory of the exact set-up is rather vague, but I do recall
a set-up that only sensed the outgoing feed to the step up
transformer. That took up a roughly 8' dia. area of ground.
I might try to pull up a picture via Google maps.

"Distribution panel"? Are we talking about the same thing?

In industrial/commercial building(s)/complex(s), the service is
brought into a distribution panel. This service is 1200 amps
and up. The distribution panel feeds other distribution panels
directly (building), via meters (complex--separate business'), or
a combination of the two. The primary distribution panel uses
large form factor circuit breakers that have adjustable magnetic
trip settings and are sized, amperage wise, for the load anticipated,
either via load calc, or other means. Say, a 400 amp feed to what
will be a production facility that uses large machinery and other
devices that draw heavy current loads. A 200 amp feed to another
section that does not have a purpose at the time of installation
and so on until all of the spaces in the dist. panel are used up,
or only the immediate (known) service sourcing is to be powered.
Why waste the money before the use for the space is known?

(I have to step out for a bit, so I will not be able to finish
at this time)

wrote in message ...
On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 22:39:43 -0600, Nightcrawler®
wrote:



How is it a fusible link? There can't be more current in the neutral
than in either of the hots.

Um, that was a joke. A pin-hole in one of the hots will slowly erode
the messenger cable. A slow blow fusible link?

Craptastic screen capture of a Delta ground fault detection system.

http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/a...ps6a811623.jpg

The items inside the circle are the GFD transformers. This is whole
plant protection for a 480V Wye-Delta/Delta transformer. Yes, three
in one. Since the Wye-Delta is plant side it needs GFD. The Delta
side for the utility is their concern, and most likely is hanging on
a pole, someplace, or non existent. It has been a long time since I
have been there and I am trying to recall some of the features of the
place.

Minor NFO about this power plant:

This was the first landfill gas fired power plant built in the United States.
It was brought into service in 1983. Originally it only had two Cooper style
Superior 8G inline 8 cylinder reciprocating enginators. Yes, that is what they
are called. We just called them Gensets. Each enginator is capable of around
1/2 Megawatt normal, ~3/4 Mw when road hard and usually blowed up. This style
of engine is rather boring when it goes. The Waukesha engines, those you really
do not want to be around. Those are different plants, different stories.

Anyway, this plant was a proof of concept endeavor. They found that landfills
not only had enough methane to power a couple of engines, this tired old landfill
had enough methane production to power four engines. So, this plant was expanded
to four engines around 1989 and really has not had anything special done to it
other than adding a VFD, modern temperature sensing and recording (got to please
the ****ing smog Nazi's of the BAAQMD and CARB). Yes, these old things must
pass smog and must keep records of each exhaust stack temperature and the plant
flow in ECFM. They tried implementing other smog related items, but the exhaust
temp of 1200F+ pretty much melted anything they tried to use. Leave it to
the brainiacs of the Earth First to use plastic sensors to close of a proximity
to the combustion source to not figure out that moving the probe location 10
ft down exhaust will give a more useable location for sensitive measuring
equipment.

F it, thinking about those punks **** me off.

wrote in message ...

That why you're called a night crawler??

LOL! Sure, why not. :-)

On Wed, 27 Nov 2013 20:18:17 -0600, Nightcrawler®
wrote:


wrote in message ...
On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 22:35:46 -0600, Nightcrawler®
wrote:


wrote in message news
I believe most generators in the use are Delta, where loads, as you
state, are Wye. Transimisson is Delta as is most distribution, IIRC.

Most, that I have installed, are Wye. Onsite protection of these units
is simpler and more cost effective. 3+ units going straight onto grid
as Wye (stepped up, of course) or a Wye-Delta step-up. However, most
long range delivery is done via a pure Delta (no neutral) system.

You install power company generators? Why would protection be
simpler?

I used to install power-plant generators, yes. Not utility
generators. These private plants fed the grid and were under
the ultimate control of the utility, meaning that the utility
could kick them off-line, at will. Most of the plants were
not stand-alone. If the grid went down, they went down. The
gas-turbine plants were stand-alone, and some city service
generation facilities were, also.

That's an entirely different kettle. Of course they're Wye connected
because that's what the customer sees. the POWER COMPANY'S generators
*are* delta connected, as is the transmission system.

Per generator:

A Wye system only has the standard voltage/amperage/frequency/
ground-fault protective systems. Each phase has one bus, two
detection transformers (CT and PT), and the neutral is grounded
through a current transformer. The neutral does not go out
of the plant. The ground fault and generator detection trans-
formers are installed on the generator side of the 52G breaker.

At the customer end, OK, but that has nothing to do with the power
company.

The utility only has one set of detection devices in the plant,
right after the service entry switch. This set-up provides the
best user safety for power generation.

Delta systems are set up primarily the same way with the exception
that they usually do not have a grounded leg, hence, no reference
to ground. To get a reference to ground requires a complicated
and costly system that is separately derived from the direct gener-
ation process.

Huh? Delta has no neutral.

These things take up a lot of space. There is no way
to have these units inside the control room as with the Wye set-
up. Each phase of each generator will have a transformer 1/3 the
size of a standard pole pig. This is quite a footprint. My
memory of the exact set-up is rather vague, but I do recall
a set-up that only sensed the outgoing feed to the step up
transformer. That took up a roughly 8' dia. area of ground.
I might try to pull up a picture via Google maps.

"Distribution panel"? Are we talking about the same thing?

In industrial/commercial building(s)/complex(s), the service is
brought into a distribution panel. This service is 1200 amps
and up. The distribution panel feeds other distribution panels
directly (building), via meters (complex--separate business'), or
a combination of the two. The primary distribution panel uses
large form factor circuit breakers that have adjustable magnetic
trip settings and are sized, amperage wise, for the load anticipated,
either via load calc, or other means. Say, a 400 amp feed to what
will be a production facility that uses large machinery and other
devices that draw heavy current loads. A 200 amp feed to another
section that does not have a purpose at the time of installation
and so on until all of the spaces in the dist. panel are used up,
or only the immediate (known) service sourcing is to be powered.
Why waste the money before the use for the space is known?

You're talking about an *entirely* different issue and irrelevant to
the discussion.

(I have to step out for a bit, so I will not be able to finish
at this time)

On 11/27/2013 6:35 PM, wrote:

Neither will the IEEE power engineers:

http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/artic...number=4520128

"Distribution engineers have treated the standard "singlephase" distribution transformer
connection as single phase because from the primary side of the transformer these connections
are single phase and in the case of standard rural distribution single phase line to ground.
However, with the advent of detailed circuit modeling we are beginning to see distribution
modeling and analysis being accomplished past the transformer to the secondary. Which now
brings into focus the reality that standard 120/240 secondary systems are not single phase
line to ground systems, instead they are three wire systems with two phases and one ground
wires. Further, the standard 120/240 secondary is different from the two phase primary system
in that the secondary phases are separated by 180 degrees instead of three phases separated
by 120 degrees."

Not obvious what the author has in mind in the minimal summary of his paper.

He clearly says the standard way of looking at split-phase, 3-wire
supplies is they are single phase. Everyone here but you (that has
provided an opinion) agrees with that.

The author suggests a departure where the 2 hot wires are considered
separate phases for "modeling". And for modeling, if you are looking at
the *currents* in the 3 wires, you have to consider them separate phases
because the currents will be 180 degrees out of phase only if the loads
are resistive. Not obvious what the author is saying beyond that.

But, alas, I don't see where the author's suggestion has been accepted.

The paper confirms what the rest of us have been saying.


My service panel is "single phase". If I replaced it, the only panels
manufacturers have are "single phase". The 2-pole breakers for them are
"single phase".

I propose we resolve this by using L1, in my L1-N-L2 service, as the
reference. L1-N and L1-L2 are in phase.

The standard real 2-phase supplies have 2 transformers 90 degrees apart
with the centertaps connected. Does this then have 4 phases?

In a 3-phase wye system are there 6 phases at the transformers (each
transformer has 2 ends)?