On Tuesday, November 26, 2013 1:10:18 PM UTC-5, Harold W. wrote:
scrit:



he counts it as a new, independent "reference".



He said they all said the same thing so he probably googled

the sentence. It's logical. There's nothing wrong with finding

multiple references that were vetted by multiple people that

say the same thing.



You seem to have a personal problem.

You seem to not understand electricity. And Danny doesn't have
multiple references that were vetted by multiple people.
All I see is one original, that traces back to the website
"How stuff works." That a bunch of people link to it,
means not a wit. The only source that he has that might have
some credibility is the assoc prof at a junior college.
But again, you don't have the prof saying a damn thing, just
a link back to the same old thing. Unless I missed something.
We don't even know if the prof put that link up there, or it
was a TA at the junior college, etc.
And take a look at what Bud just posted, where he shows the author
of the piece doesn't understand the difference between a neutral
and ground. Apparently you don't either, because you made another
post where you said it doesn't matter.

http://preview.tinyurl.com/n8wk3p5

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earthing_system

On Tuesday, November 26, 2013 8:22:48 AM UTC-5, Danny D'Amico wrote:
On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 08:20:23 +0100, nestork wrote:



No, houses very rarely have power factor correction. Most of the reason

why is that electrical utilities only charge their residential customers

on the actual kilowatts they used, not the KVA the consumed.



I always thought they only measured current at the meter?



Which again shows how little you know.




there is always going to be some net voltage sine wave in that

neutral buss, and therefore in the ground wire cable coming out of

the main panel. So, how can you NOT have current into and out of the

Good Earth through the grounding rod or pipe ...



Agreed.



Wrong.

Example: I have just a couple of 240V loads. Zero flow in neutral.



I'm not saying that current flows back to the generating station through

the ground. Or, at least, I'm not saying that yet.







And, I can't see why a net voltage sine wave in the neutral buss

wouldn't cause current flow into and out of the Good Earth at the

grounding rod or plumbing pipe.



Exactly!



Exactly what? That current flow is tiny and incidental. It's is
*not* delivering 99.99% of the power. You could unhook the ground
and power would still be delivered.




And, according to one of the pictures posted by G. Fretwell, the current

measured through his grounding rod is 0.142 amps. And that's without

any intentional effort to imbalance the electrical load at the main

panel.



When it gets light, and I take care of the grandkids getting to school,

I'm going to see if I can find my old ammeter and I'm going to check

my neutral and ground wires too!



Last time after you did some experimenting your alarm system
was toast. What's next?



Those pictures from gfrewell were inspiring!

We can make our own observations!

What in the world does him showing a tiny .14 amps flowing in a ground
have to do with your claim that the earth is used as the return
path for power transmission?

On Tuesday, November 26, 2013 12:52:22 PM UTC-5, Harold W. wrote:
scrit:



I've also tried to educate you on 3 phase power and why those 3 wires

alone are all it takes to deliver power.



Without earth you have a big problem.

Enlighten us. I hook up a 3 phase load to a 3 phase power source
using 3 wires. Why must I have a problem and what exactly is that
problem? Does the load get it's power and work, yes or no?

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 05:55:07 -0800, dave
wrote:

On 11/25/2013 03:33 PM, Danny D'Amico wrote:
On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 14:15:05 -0800, wrote:

They are *not* both valid. You have it wrong.

Well, this entire discussion is about how the power supply works, so,
it is germane to the discussion how the power company completes the
circuit.

I don't have any more arguments, and, we *do* have at least one
reference which supports my statement.

That doesn't mean I'm correct. What it means is we need more references
(either way), instead of our statements (since we all sincerely believe
what we're stating).

Googling for:
"how does electricity get back to the power company -solar"

This is on the first page (which was referenced already):
http://science.howstuffworks.com/env...rgy/power3.htm
It agrees with what I said (on page 4).

Here it says the same thing (that the earth is the return path):
http://www.science.smith.edu/~jcarde...ecPwr_HSW.html

And he
http://www.electricityforum.com/elec...-it-works.html

But those are all repeats. How about this Physics forum?
http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=429670

Now, that does not prove that the earth is the return path
for the electricity back to the power company, but, it is clearly
a half dozen (or so) references which say what I've always thought
was the case.

That means that the idea isn't so far fetched as it may appear.
Admittedly, most of these references were cut out of the same
mold (probably due to my search terms?), so I welcome someone
who can find a reference that says the earth is *not* the return
path for the HVAC typical power generated in the USA.


Modern polyphase power has no ground for reference.

Of course it does. It's a wye at the substation. The center *is*
ground.

This is a major pain
in the ass when trying to find 120Vac on top of a mountain.

....and here I thought the problem was getting the wires up there in
the first place.

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 10:23:23 -0500, "Wild_Bill"
wrote:

I don't see the earlier comment, but from the links and the search question,
I presume the conversation was about a circuit term referred to as "return".

A lot f folks are fixated on naming one power lead as "return", when there
is nothng related to any sort of "return" taking place in a circuit.

Nonsense.

There are 2 conductors.. and one is a higher potential than the other.
That's all there is to it, but you'll probably never fnd ths statement in
any text book.

You can't have current without a closed loop.

The power is disspated at the load, and there is nothing to return to any
other location.

No current = no power.

I don't know where the fantasy of a return originated, but there is none iin
an electrical circuit.

You're blind.

Hydraulic circuit, yes, thre is generally always a return line.. for obvious
reasons.

The same reasons.

The earth, meaning the planet, is not half of an electrical crcuit.. with
maybe one exception being lightning strikes.

It certainly can be, but isn't normally.

Hills and terrain affect RF energy, and the ground/earth at the base of an
antenna is often imbedded with conductors to form a ground plane.

Irrelevant.

Electrical circuts deliver power to an appliance, tool, light bulb etc as
the two differing potentials, and the power is disspated as heat, light,
motion etc at the device beng powered.

Now talk about the other half of the story.

It is aburd to belive that power is returned thru many miles of distribution
gear and back to the generation source, or that it's returned thru the soil.

It's absurd to deny the fact that a "return" exists.

Yet, the majorty of folks believe and continue to express/repeat this
concept.

....and they're correct.

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 21:44:28 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 20:43:01 +0100, nestork
wrote:


bud--;3155057 Wrote:

The earth does not complete the circuit. Wires complete the circuit.


Bud, until recently I would have agreed with you. But, whomever wrote
this web page obviously knows something about electric power generation
and distribution and seems to disagree:

http://tinyurl.com/y4syno6

Look at the bottom paragraph in the section entitled "The Power Plant:
Three Phase Power" where it says:


And what about this "ground," as mentioned above? The power company
essentially uses the earth as one of the wires in the power system. The
earth is a pretty good conductor and it is huge, so it makes a good
return path for electrons. (Car manufacturers do something similar; they
use the metal body of the car as one of the wires in the car's
electrical system and attach the negative pole of the battery to the
car's body.) "Ground" in the power distribution grid is literally "the
ground" that's all around you when you are walking outside. It is the
dirt, rocks, groundwater, etc., of the earth.


I don't think he could have said it any clearer.
And he COULD have been more accurate. He is wrong, for instance, in
stating each tap takes off 2 phases. It GENERALLY takes off ONE phase
- which feeds a center tapped step-down distribution transformer. The
primary of that thansformer has only 2 conductors, and a single
winding. The secondary has 3 wires, and a center tapped winding,
providing SINGLE PHASE power to the local residential grid..
There are 2 basic 3 phase connection schemes, delta and wye. Wye has a
neutral (so requires 4 wires) while delta uses only 3 wires. Delta
connections take power from l1 to l2, l2 to l3, and l3 to l1. Wye
takes power from l1 to n, l2 to n and l3 to n.

BOTH are used. A 3 phase generator can be either delta or wye. In
North America MOST systems are wye, while in other parts of the world
delta is more common. (but in europe, 4 wire(wye) is used
(400/230volt)

I believe most generators in the use are Delta, where loads, as you
state, are Wye. Transimisson is Delta as is most distribution, IIRC.

Japan, on the other hand, uses a full 3 phase distribution system and
does not use center tapped transformers to provide high/low voltage to
homes - they actually feed 2 phases to each house like many MURBs in
North America - so they get nominal 120/208 instead of 120/240. Both
50 and 60 hz are used, and much of the country is 100 volt, instead of
120 - and some is 115. (must be fun if moving from place to place
within the country to get the right equipment ----)

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 17:52:22 +0000 (UTC), "Harold W."
wrote:

scrit:

I've also tried to educate you on 3 phase power and why those 3 wires
alone are all it takes to deliver power.

Without earth you have a big problem.

Yeah, the towers would fall over.

wrote in :

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 03:09:10 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote:

wrote in :

The "neutral" is NEVER bare in North America (except in some parts
of rural Sakatchewan Canada, where single wire earth return IS
actually still in limited use)

Absolute nonsense. You see bare neutrals all over the place in rural areas of the U.S.
with
overhead service.

http://www.southwire.com/products/Tr...erviceDrop.htm

Don't you think it's time you stopped assuming that what is true in your [obviously limited]
experience is true everywhere?
In DISTRIBUTION, yes - but not on the "consumer" side.

Wrong again. Triplex cable (see link above) isn't used for distribution anywhere in the U.S.
that I'm aware of -- it is, however, very commonly used for service drops (from the
transformer to the customer's service mast).

Like I said... don't you think it's time you stopped assuming that what is true in your
obviously limited experience is true everywhere?

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 19:59:22 -0600, Nightcrawler®
wrote:


"Danny D'Amico" wrote in message ...
On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 15:10:28 -0500, clare wrote:

Maybe that's odd, for the USA though, 'cuz everyone is saying that
the neutral is normally bare.


No, they are not.

Entering the house (on the PowerCo's side of the meter), it often is
bare. There isn't much reason to insulate it since it's tied to
ground at both ends (and is out of reach in the rare case of a fault).

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 05:55:20 +0100, nestork
wrote:


I've been kind of following this thread, and I can follow the notion
that in a perfectly balanced electrical load the voltage and current
sine waves would all cancel out when they met at the neutral wire and so
there wouldn't be any current or voltage in either the neutral or ground
wires.

Correct.

But, in a real life situation, suppose I made a point of driving my CRT
style TV sets (capacitive loads) and CRT style computer monitors with
one power line coming into my house, and at the same time I used the
other 120 VAC power line to provide power to all of the electric motors
in my house, like the circulating pump on my hot water heating system,
the motor in my garage door opener and the compressor motor in my
fridge.

Sure, that's why you have a neutral, to carry the difference in the
current of the two legs. That's why it has to be the same gauge as
the hots, unless it's a certain size (where cancellation can be
assured).

Now, according to ELI the ICE man, the current sine waves going through
the motors is going to lag behind the applied voltage sine wave, while
the current sine waves coming out of the CRT style TV sets and computer
monitors is going to precede the applied voltage sine wave. That would
mean that the current sine waves returning to the main panel along the
white wires would occur at different times, and therefore NOT cancel
each other out completely.

Sure. So? That's what the neutral is for. Add to this, the harmonic
content from your switching power supplies and fluroescent lights. It
gets ugly.

Now, I cannot fit it into my head that the voltage sine waves in the
neutral wires coming back from those two kinds of loads would cancel
each other completely in the neutral buss in the main panel, but not the
current sine waves. That would mean that you'd have some NET current
sine wave, and therefore current, without any driving voltage.

Sure. There *is* current in the neutral. That's the reason it's
there.

In order for there to be some NET current sine wave, there HAS TO BE
some net voltage sine wave in the white neutral buss in the main panel
where all the white wires meet to drive that current.

What's the resistance of the wire?

And I can't see why that net voltage sine wave wouldn't energize the
ground cable coming out of the main panel and cause current to flow
through that cable and into and out of the Good Earth.

What am I missing here?

The resistance of the wire.

After bud's excellent explanation, we can see that Danny is almost right.

The ground IS a parallel path for return, but most of the current will flow along the neutral wire.

If there's not a neutral wire, then..........no don't go there. Yet.

Back to that single phase feeding the house from the transformer secondary for a second.

The center tap of that transformer is bonded to ground. That gives us a zero reference. But that technically is not necessary. Your house would work fine without it. Your oven would still "see" 240 volts and your lights 120. The problem is you might have a voltage difference between some of your equipment and ground.

But transformers are not limited to one tap. This secondary could easily be tapped at 60, 120, 180 and 240 volts referenced from tap to "low" terminal.

Do I now have 4-phase power? Do I have four legs out of phase?

Wild_Bill wrote:

I don't see the earlier comment, but from the links and the search question,
I presume the conversation was about a circuit term referred to as "return".

A lot f folks are fixated on naming one power lead as "return", when there
is nothng related to any sort of "return" taking place in a circuit.

There are 2 conductors.. and one is a higher potential than the other.
That's all there is to it, but you'll probably never fnd ths statement in
any text book.

The power is disspated at the load, and there is nothing to return to any
other location.

I don't know where the fantasy of a return originated, but there is none iin
an electrical circuit.
Hydraulic circuit, yes, thre is generally always a return line.. for obvious
reasons.

The earth, meaning the planet, is not half of an electrical crcuit.. with
maybe one exception being lightning strikes.
Hills and terrain affect RF energy, and the ground/earth at the base of an
antenna is often imbedded with conductors to form a ground plane.

Electrical circuts deliver power to an appliance, tool, light bulb etc as
the two differing potentials, and the power is disspated as heat, light,
motion etc at the device beng powered.

It is aburd to belive that power is returned thru many miles of distribution
gear and back to the generation source, or that it's returned thru the soil.
Yet, the majorty of folks believe and continue to express/repeat this
concept.


Idiot. Read this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-wire_earth_return

--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

I dunno.

I'm glad that this discussion hasn't turned into an insult hurling contest as so often happens.

I think Danny now has a much better idea of how his electrical panel works, and it's really just that part that matters. If he uses the technically incorrect but easy to understand notion that power is delivered by the L1 and L2 power cables that distribute power throughout his house on red and black wires, and returns back to the panel on the white wires, and that the L1 and L2 power sources are each 120 VAC relative to the neutral, but 180 degrees out of phase so that there's 240 VAC between them, then he knows more than most homeowners and enough not to electrocude himself, and that's what counts.

And, so far as I'm concerned, I'm going to drop this thread in favour of doing something more productive with my time.

I'm going to see if I can open my mouth so wide that my head turns inside out. I'm just wondering if I can do it. It may take some time to find out for sure if I can do it or not.

Seeing as how we are talking about transformers, and to further confuse
Danny...
And to bring in 2-phase...

Distribution in a relatively large building may be 480/277V 3-phase.
Large motors are 480V 3-phase and lighting is 277V. Scattered around the
building are 480/277V to 208/120V transformer (all of this is 3-phase,
wye). There are 3 transformers in one assembly.

Relatively small transformers can be made with 2 transformers in one
assembly with the transformers in a Scott ( or T) connection. The 2
transformers operate at true 2-phase, 90 degrees out of phase. Long live
2-phase.

The problem with this connection is it screws up the power factor and
the current rating of the transformers has to be lowered. The same thing
happens with open delta.

On 11/26/2013 12:07 PM, Harold W. wrote:
bud-- scrit:

This earth current is not an intentional current flow, but a result of
how electrical systems are earthed for safety

The return path is intentional in so much as the system is engineered
to take it all into account because it's going to happen. All over
the place.

I don't know what "engineered to take it all into account" means.

Engineers would rather not have these earth currents. One place they are
quite detrimental is on a dairy farm where "stray currents" can have a
really large effect on milk production.

On 11/26/2013 1:09 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 21:44:28 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 20:43:01 +0100, nestork
wrote:


bud--;3155057 Wrote:

The earth does not complete the circuit. Wires complete the circuit.


Bud, until recently I would have agreed with you. But, whomever wrote
this web page obviously knows something about electric power generation
and distribution and seems to disagree:

http://tinyurl.com/y4syno6

Look at the bottom paragraph in the section entitled "The Power Plant:
Three Phase Power" where it says:


And what about this "ground," as mentioned above? The power company
essentially uses the earth as one of the wires in the power system. The
earth is a pretty good conductor and it is huge, so it makes a good
return path for electrons. (Car manufacturers do something similar; they
use the metal body of the car as one of the wires in the car's
electrical system and attach the negative pole of the battery to the
car's body.) "Ground" in the power distribution grid is literally "the
ground" that's all around you when you are walking outside. It is the
dirt, rocks, groundwater, etc., of the earth.


I don't think he could have said it any clearer.
And he COULD have been more accurate. He is wrong, for instance, in
stating each tap takes off 2 phases. It GENERALLY takes off ONE phase
- which feeds a center tapped step-down distribution transformer. The
primary of that thansformer has only 2 conductors, and a single
winding. The secondary has 3 wires, and a center tapped winding,
providing SINGLE PHASE power to the local residential grid..
There are 2 basic 3 phase connection schemes, delta and wye. Wye has a
neutral (so requires 4 wires) while delta uses only 3 wires. Delta
connections take power from l1 to l2, l2 to l3, and l3 to l1. Wye
takes power from l1 to n, l2 to n and l3 to n.

BOTH are used. A 3 phase generator can be either delta or wye. In
North America MOST systems are wye, while in other parts of the world
delta is more common. (but in europe, 4 wire(wye) is used
(400/230volt)

I believe most generators in the use are Delta, where loads, as you
state, are Wye. Transimisson is Delta as is most distribution, IIRC.

My recollection is transmission is wye at the source and delta at the
end (that is transmission line connections to the transformers). This is
not something I ever work anywhere near.

Distribution at my house is 13.8kV phase-to-phase and 8kV phase to
neutral. I have an 8kV distribution wire (and distribution neutral)
running down my alley. I believe most distribution is wye. All the
distribution transformers I see have one high voltage insulator, which
has to be wye.

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 11:36:46 -0500, wrote:

Like the old adage says, current doesn't take the path of least
resistance, it takes ALL paths.

Makes me jump thinking about it

On 11/26/2013 11:46 AM, wrote:
On Tuesday, November 26, 2013 11:04:53 AM UTC-5, bud-- wrote:
On 11/25/2013 11:07 PM, Danny D'Amico wrote:
On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 21:52:34 -0500, clare wrote:

Only in some rather rare circumstances is the "ground" actually used
in place of a current carrying conductor

This reference from Smith College, Northampton, MA:
http://www.science.smith.edu/~jcarde...ecPwr_HSW.html

Says:
"The power company essentially uses the earth as one of
the wires in the power system. The earth is a pretty good
conductor and it is huge, so it makes a good return path
for electrons."
It is fatally flawed, as described in another post.

That's from an EE class:
http://www.science.smith.edu/~jcardell/Courses/EGR220/
EGR 220, Spring 2013, Engineering Circuit Theory

It is not from an EE class.

It is something Smith College picked up from somewhere. As far is I know
it was not written by anyone ever associated with the college.

Taught by Judith Cardell, who researches this stuff:
http://www.science.smith.edu/~jcardell/

She should know, shouldn't she?

What should she know? She didn't write the piece at the top.

Why does everyone who understands power distribution disagree with you?

Bud-

The one and only place AFAIK that all of this is coming from is the website
"How stuff works". That link at the top produces the piece apparently
authored by Marshal Brain. As I understand it, he's the creator of
the "How stuff works" website. ALL the references Danny has are
either the exact verbage from there repeated, a link back to it,
or a copy thereof.

I didn't read Danny's other sources. I am really tired of his arguments.
Interesting they are all the same thing.

I did see that Brain started "How things work" (I have seen other
nonsense at that site).

Brain is presumably an EE. When I graduated there had been no reference
to the NEC, and no practical information about power systems, and in
particular earthing. Brain certainly shows no comprehension. krw, I
think, said most EE course work is electronics. There are at least 3
other EEs here. I haven't noticed any have particular information on
power distribution that they got in school.

You would hope that an assistant prof would
check the stuff, but who knows if she did, who actually posted it
as part of the course, etc. You also have to wonder about any college
that uses stuff from "How stuff works" for course material.

I have not figured out how "she" has anything to do with the "piece"
except "she" is a prof at the same college that put up the "piece".


But there is no question it's wrong.

But Danny found it on the internet....


Hey, didja hear that O J Simpson was framed by Romulans that beamed down
from a cloaked war-bird and tampered with the evidence in the crime lab.
If you don't believe it show me someone who says it isn't true.

On 11/26/2013 3:28 PM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Wild_Bill wrote:

I don't see the earlier comment, but from the links and the search question,
I presume the conversation was about a circuit term referred to as "return".

A lot f folks are fixated on naming one power lead as "return", when there
is nothng related to any sort of "return" taking place in a circuit.

There are 2 conductors.. and one is a higher potential than the other.
That's all there is to it, but you'll probably never fnd ths statement in
any text book.

The power is disspated at the load, and there is nothing to return to any
other location.

I don't know where the fantasy of a return originated, but there is none iin
an electrical circuit.
Hydraulic circuit, yes, thre is generally always a return line.. for obvious
reasons.

The earth, meaning the planet, is not half of an electrical crcuit.. with
maybe one exception being lightning strikes.
Hills and terrain affect RF energy, and the ground/earth at the base of an
antenna is often imbedded with conductors to form a ground plane.

Electrical circuts deliver power to an appliance, tool, light bulb etc as
the two differing potentials, and the power is disspated as heat, light,
motion etc at the device beng powered.

It is aburd to belive that power is returned thru many miles of distribution
gear and back to the generation source, or that it's returned thru the soil.
Yet, the majorty of folks believe and continue to express/repeat this
concept.


Idiot. Read this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-wire_earth_return


I think it was used in the early days of the REA.

Where has it been used in the US in the last 50 years.

I don't remember ever seeing transmission or distribution lines without
a neutral.

On 11/26/2013 04:48 PM, nestork wrote:
I think Danny now has a much better idea of how his electrical panel
works, and it's really just that part that matters. If he uses the
technically incorrect but easy to understand notion that power is
delivered by the L1 and L2 power cables that distribute power throughout
his house on red and black wires, and returns back to the panel on the
white wires, and that the L1 and L2 power sources are each 120 VAC
relative to the neutral, but 180 degrees out of phase so that there's
240 VAC between them, then he knows more than most homeowners and enough
not to electrocude himself, and that's what counts.

So I'm confused. Are my 240 volt appliances single phase or two phase?

On 11/26/13 11:55 AM, bud-- wrote:
On 11/26/2013 10:57 AM, wrote:


You are the king of pictures.

(But that should further confuse Danny. Maybe if he started with the
basics...)


There is also a corner grounded delta but you usually only see it in
places like sewer lift stations where there is no L/N load at all.
The equipment will look exactly like single phase with 2 pole breakers
and a white neutral but the voltages are 240 to ground on the
ungrounded legs and 240 P to P

Corner grounded delta is also common, I have heard, for center pivot
irrigation. Not likely something you have in Florida.

At least three of the local REAs use the 480v corner ground delta
for irrigation here in south central Nebraska. One uses the 480v
center tap delta.
I haven't seen any circuit breakers used for irrigation. Everyone
still uses fuses. Electricians do use breakers for grain bin and
building power though. There are a lot more circuits needed for grain
handling and buildings. Plus condensation isn't the issue it can be
with irrigation.

on 27/11/2013, supposed :
On Tuesday, November 26, 2013 11:13:49 AM UTC-5, bud-- wrote:
On 11/25/2013 1:43 PM, nestork wrote:

bud--;3155057 Wrote:



The earth does not complete the circuit. Wires complete the circuit.




Bud, until recently I would have agreed with you. But, whomever wrote
this web page obviously knows something about electric power generation
and distribution and seems to disagree:


http://tinyurl.com/y4syno6



Look at the bottom paragraph in the section entitled "The Power Plant:
Three Phase Power" where it says:





And what about this "ground," as mentioned above? The power company
essentially uses the earth as one of the wires in the power system. The
earth is a pretty good conductor and it is huge, so it makes a good
return path for electrons. (Car manufacturers do something similar; they
use the metal body of the car as one of the wires in the car's
electrical system and attach the negative pole of the battery to the
car's body.) "Ground" in the power distribution grid is literally "the
ground" that's all around you when you are walking outside. It is the
dirt, rocks, groundwater, etc., of the earth.




I don't think he could have said it any clearer.




As trader noted, the author says "there are four wires coming out of

every power plant: the three phases plus a neutral or ground common to

all three."



The 4th wire is a neutral, which is grounded.



The author has a problem of identifying neutrals as grounds throughout

the piece.



Nowhere does the author describe how earth is used as a conductor in

power transmission.

------------------------

"The fourth wire lower on the poles is the ground wire"



The 4th wire is a neutral which is earthed.

--------------------------

"Past a typical house runs a set of poles with one phase of power (at

7,200 volts) and a ground wire (although sometimes there will be two or

three phases on the pole, depending on where the house is located in the

distribution grid)."



The "ground wire" is in fact a neutral wire (which is earthed).

--------------------------

"There are two things to notice in this pictu

There is a bare wire running down the pole.

This is a grounding wire. Every utility pole on the planet has one."



Actually every utility pole does not have one. With the overhead

distribution in Minneapolis poles with transformers have an earthing

wire. Other poles may or may not have one.

---------------------

Continuing "If you examine a pole carefully, you will see that the

ground wire running between poles (and often the guy wires) are attached

to this direct connection to ground."



The wire is a neutral that is earthed.



The distribution voltage in my area has one of the 3-phase wires tapped

off the distribution and feeding 4-8 blocks. The 3-phase neutral is

tapped off the supply neutral at the same place and runs with the phase

wire. As above, the neutral is earthed at multiple locations. The same

primary neutral is used as the secondary neutral, and so the secondary

neutral at the transformer is earthed.

-------------------------------

Continuing

"There are two wires running out of the transformer and three wires

running to the house.

The two from the transformer are insulated, and the third one is

bare. The bare wire is the ground wire."



As about everyone here knows, the 3rd wire is a neutral, not a ground.

-------------------------------

There is an electrical diagram of a transformer with the secondary

center tap labeled "ground".



Also is obviously a neutral.

--------------------------------

There are multiple pictures of distribution lines, all of which have a

neutral. Sometimes the author misidentifies the neutral as "ground".

Transmission lines also have a neutral. Sometimes it is run on the top

for lightning strikes.

----------------------------

"When a 120-volt power line connects directly to ground, its goal in

life is to pump as much electricity as possible through the connection."



The electricity does not flow to earth. It returns to the utility

transformer through the N-G bond at the service and through the service

neutral wire.

-------------------------------

The author consistently misidentifies neutral wires as "ground" wires.

His pictures show neutrals along with distribution wires. He does not

explain how the earth is used in power distribution. He does not appear

to understand power distribution.



This piece is fatally flawed.

My hat's off to you Bud. Excellent job taking it apart piece by
piece. What's ironic is Danny came in here not knowing the difference
between a neutral and ground with a house service. Now he's hitched
his wagon to an author that clearly doesn't know the difference between a
neutral and a ground either.

Absolutely l-)

--
John G

On 11/25/13 5:33 PM, Danny D'Amico wrote:

Cut a bunch to keep AIOE happy.

Now, that does not prove that the earth is the return path
for the electricity back to the power company, but, it is clearly
a half dozen (or so) references which say what I've always thought
was the case.

That means that the idea isn't so far fetched as it may appear.
Admittedly, most of these references were cut out of the same
mold (probably due to my search terms?), so I welcome someone
who can find a reference that says the earth is *not* the return
path for the HVAC typical power generated in the USA.


Article here http://preview.tinyurl.com/mxd4xb2
talking about power distribution. It was written by a fella with a BSEE
and an MSEE. He spent a bunch of years working in the power industry.
He writes about a possible project in Alaska. Single wire earth
return similar to what the Aussies do.

He says:
A single wire, ground return circuit will require a waiver from the
Alaska legislature or Department of Labor since it does not comply with
the NESC. However, the author does not believe that the single
conductor, earth return circuit should be considered and firmly believes
that a multi-grounded, neutral be considered on all single phase and
three-phase, four-wire circuits.
End quote.

The fact that using the earth return system requires a waiver implies
that it is used very infrequently.

wrote in message ...

What in the world does him showing a tiny .14 amps flowing in a ground
have to do with your claim that the earth is used as the return
path for power transmission?

It would appear that the concept of electrical continuity and being part of
a circuit is rather lost on some people. Does the ground perform an important
function? Yes. Is it a current carrying entity in the circuit: No.
Does it carry stray voltage? Yes. Does it carry stray current? Yes.
Does the fact that it does carry voltage and current make it part of the
distribution system? No.

on 27/11/2013, Danny D'Amico supposed :
On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 08:16:40 -0500, clare wrote:

She is referring to the "safety groun d", not the neutral, or she is
"dumming it down". It IS still used as a ground return on a VERY small
basis in very limitted locations - as SWERT.

heh heh ... rather than supply a reference, another guy also attacked
the credentials of the many references providing, implying, essentially,
that facts taught at a junior college are essentially wrong, simply
because it's not a four-year college.

And, now you bring up SWERT, which also has nothing to do with the
question of typical power distribution in the United States, since
neither you nor I are getting our household power through SWERT.

Let's keep SWERT out of this because the entire discussion is about
the typical US power distribution system, which is basically how
we're getting the electrons to do this typing at our keyboards.

Also, let's not try to prove our points simply by stating that the
reference is wrong because it's from a junior college or that the
answer is simplified so therefore it must be wrong.

The statement the professor made is simplified, but, it's not
untrue because it's simplified.

The class teaches students:
"The power company essentially uses the earth as one of
the wires in the power system. The earth is a pretty good
conductor and it is huge, so it makes a good return path
for electrons."

Anyway, I'll stop asking for a reference that shows otherwise.

What I'll do is continue to try to understand the typical power
distribution scheme in the United States, with your help.

You will never understand while you insist on quoting generalised
rubbish.
The neutral is often grounded for safety reasons but except SWER
systems (rare as they are) the mud is NOT used to carry any real part
of the circuit. :-?
In case you did not realise proof of NEGATIVES is very often hard to
find in any field of endevour. :-?

As I said way back in the beginning of this long thread-- GO to a real
College and learn the principles of Electricity :-?

--
John G

"John G" wrote in message
. au...
In case you did not realise proof of NEGATIVES is very often hard to find
in any field of endevour. :-?



Negatives are difficult to find any mention of. If I say the sun is green,
I doubt anyone could find any refferance that it is not. You will find
plenty that will call it yellow.

Danny D'Amico brought next idea :
On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 08:19:28 -0500, clare wrote:

That is definitely NOT college level electrical engineering. Looks
like a junior college introduction course to me.



I won't go into a discussion of how facts at a junior college are any
different than facts at a high school or university, or even those same
facts at the power company (the references I cited were from industry also),
simply because, I'll lose any argument like that on the net due to the
old adage...

And, I'll stop asking for references that state the currents *don't* go
back to the power company transformers through the ground...

I will simply continue to locate, read, and quote sources that explain the
return path for current, back to the power company's transformers.

The more I read, the more I find that this return path is not
straightforward.

There are local loops, where the math can get complex, so, I'm trying to
unwind this wye-versus-delta thing as we speak ...

Here's a good starter paper on what those ground paths back to the power
supply transformers looks like that I am still reading with great interest:
www.dataforth.com/catalog/pdf/an108.pdf

That's from a company that makes isolation transformers, so, they're not
"junior college" level, right?

Did you READ the Preamble to that paper you are quoting??

The NEC, National Electrical Code(Ref.4) requires the installation of
grounds for safety and does NOT allow load currents in ground lines.

Ther is your proof. The NEC is the Electrical BIBLE :')

--
John G

Harold W. expressed precisely :
scrit:

I've also tried to educate you on 3 phase power and why those 3 wires
alone are all it takes to deliver power.

Without earth you have a big problem.

You are as dumb as the OP Danny :|

--
John G

Danny D'Amico formulated on Wednesday :
On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 08:22:27 -0500, clare wrote:

Note the "essentially" - it is not "litterally"

Indeed. The return path to the power company's transformers is complex.

I've found a few references that try to explain it (some of which
are on google books, so I can never tell if you'll see the same
pages that I do).

The math is horrendously complex.

But the summary is simple:
"The power company essentially uses the earth as one of
the wires in the power system. The earth is a pretty good
conductor and it is huge, so it makes a good return path
for electrons."

Anyway, I'm moving on to trying to understand *why* and *when*
the power companies use the wye versus the delta transformers ...

I'm starting with the *simplified* answer, and then working toward
the key details:
http://www.phaseconverterinfo.com/ph...r_deltawye.htm

"Three-phase power is most commonly provided by the electric
utility in a wye configuration. The main advantage to wye power
is that the phase-to-neutral voltage is equal on all three legs."

In Delta configuration there is NO Neutral so whats you point.

The POwer generator almost always uses DELTA configuration of the HV
and Vvery HV lines with only 3 three wires.

The last leg from the local substation to the street transformers (POLE
PIG) will likely be WYE so that each PP only gets a phase and neutral
to convert to 240 volts centre tapped.

--
John G

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 16:54:25 -0600, bud-- wrote:

On 11/26/2013 3:28 PM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Wild_Bill wrote:

I don't see the earlier comment, but from the links and the search question,
I presume the conversation was about a circuit term referred to as "return".

A lot f folks are fixated on naming one power lead as "return", when there
is nothng related to any sort of "return" taking place in a circuit.

There are 2 conductors.. and one is a higher potential than the other.
That's all there is to it, but you'll probably never fnd ths statement in
any text book.

The power is disspated at the load, and there is nothing to return to any
other location.

I don't know where the fantasy of a return originated, but there is none iin
an electrical circuit.
Hydraulic circuit, yes, thre is generally always a return line.. for obvious
reasons.

The earth, meaning the planet, is not half of an electrical crcuit.. with
maybe one exception being lightning strikes.
Hills and terrain affect RF energy, and the ground/earth at the base of an
antenna is often imbedded with conductors to form a ground plane.

Electrical circuts deliver power to an appliance, tool, light bulb etc as
the two differing potentials, and the power is disspated as heat, light,
motion etc at the device beng powered.

It is aburd to belive that power is returned thru many miles of distribution
gear and back to the generation source, or that it's returned thru the soil.
Yet, the majorty of folks believe and continue to express/repeat this
concept.


Idiot. Read this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-wire_earth_return


I think it was used in the early days of the REA.

Where has it been used in the US in the last 50 years.

We had it well inside the city but it was about 50 years ago.

I don't remember ever seeing transmission or distribution lines without
a neutral.

You've never seen a delta? HV lines are often deltas. There really
isn't any need to carry a neutral around. It cost$.

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 15:59:36 -0600, bud-- wrote:

On 11/26/2013 1:09 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 21:44:28 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 20:43:01 +0100, nestork
wrote:


bud--;3155057 Wrote:

The earth does not complete the circuit. Wires complete the circuit.


Bud, until recently I would have agreed with you. But, whomever wrote
this web page obviously knows something about electric power generation
and distribution and seems to disagree:

http://tinyurl.com/y4syno6

Look at the bottom paragraph in the section entitled "The Power Plant:
Three Phase Power" where it says:


And what about this "ground," as mentioned above? The power company
essentially uses the earth as one of the wires in the power system. The
earth is a pretty good conductor and it is huge, so it makes a good
return path for electrons. (Car manufacturers do something similar; they
use the metal body of the car as one of the wires in the car's
electrical system and attach the negative pole of the battery to the
car's body.) "Ground" in the power distribution grid is literally "the
ground" that's all around you when you are walking outside. It is the
dirt, rocks, groundwater, etc., of the earth.


I don't think he could have said it any clearer.
And he COULD have been more accurate. He is wrong, for instance, in
stating each tap takes off 2 phases. It GENERALLY takes off ONE phase
- which feeds a center tapped step-down distribution transformer. The
primary of that thansformer has only 2 conductors, and a single
winding. The secondary has 3 wires, and a center tapped winding,
providing SINGLE PHASE power to the local residential grid..
There are 2 basic 3 phase connection schemes, delta and wye. Wye has a
neutral (so requires 4 wires) while delta uses only 3 wires. Delta
connections take power from l1 to l2, l2 to l3, and l3 to l1. Wye
takes power from l1 to n, l2 to n and l3 to n.

BOTH are used. A 3 phase generator can be either delta or wye. In
North America MOST systems are wye, while in other parts of the world
delta is more common. (but in europe, 4 wire(wye) is used
(400/230volt)

I believe most generators in the use are Delta, where loads, as you
state, are Wye. Transimisson is Delta as is most distribution, IIRC.

My recollection is transmission is wye at the source and delta at the
end (that is transmission line connections to the transformers). This is
not something I ever work anywhere near.

I think you have that backwards. There is no reason to ground
reference the source but there is at the substation. It has to be for
the next level. Doing it that way reduces Earth currents, too.

Distribution at my house is 13.8kV phase-to-phase and 8kV phase to
neutral. I have an 8kV distribution wire (and distribution neutral)
running down my alley. I believe most distribution is wye. All the
distribution transformers I see have one high voltage insulator, which
has to be wye.

Sure, but from the substation the other way, it's likely a delta.
Neutrals are expensive and really not needed.

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 18:26:25 -0500, Ed wrote:

On 11/26/2013 04:48 PM, nestork wrote:
I think Danny now has a much better idea of how his electrical panel
works, and it's really just that part that matters. If he uses the
technically incorrect but easy to understand notion that power is
delivered by the L1 and L2 power cables that distribute power
throughout his house on red and black wires, and returns back to the
panel on the white wires, and that the L1 and L2 power sources are each
120 VAC relative to the neutral, but 180 degrees out of phase so that
there's 240 VAC between them, then he knows more than most homeowners
and enough not to electrocude himself, and that's what counts.

So I'm confused. Are my 240 volt appliances single phase or two phase?

Look on the manufacturers name plate...you'll likely see that it is
single phase.

L1 to L2 is 240 volt single phase. The center / neutral tap is not
needed for 240 volt service.

The 2 phase claim is bogus.

Beware of trolls.

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 16:34:45 -0600, bud-- wrote:

On 11/26/2013 11:46 AM, wrote:
On Tuesday, November 26, 2013 11:04:53 AM UTC-5, bud-- wrote:
On 11/25/2013 11:07 PM, Danny D'Amico wrote:
On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 21:52:34 -0500, clare wrote:

Only in some rather rare circumstances is the "ground" actually used
in place of a current carrying conductor

This reference from Smith College, Northampton, MA:
http://www.science.smith.edu/~jcarde...ecPwr_HSW.html

Says:
"The power company essentially uses the earth as one of
the wires in the power system. The earth is a pretty good
conductor and it is huge, so it makes a good return path
for electrons."
It is fatally flawed, as described in another post.

That's from an EE class:
http://www.science.smith.edu/~jcardell/Courses/EGR220/
EGR 220, Spring 2013, Engineering Circuit Theory

It is not from an EE class.

It is something Smith College picked up from somewhere. As far is I know
it was not written by anyone ever associated with the college.

Taught by Judith Cardell, who researches this stuff:
http://www.science.smith.edu/~jcardell/

She should know, shouldn't she?

What should she know? She didn't write the piece at the top.

Why does everyone who understands power distribution disagree with you?

Bud-

The one and only place AFAIK that all of this is coming from is the website
"How stuff works". That link at the top produces the piece apparently
authored by Marshal Brain. As I understand it, he's the creator of
the "How stuff works" website. ALL the references Danny has are
either the exact verbage from there repeated, a link back to it,
or a copy thereof.

I didn't read Danny's other sources. I am really tired of his arguments.
Interesting they are all the same thing.

I did see that Brain started "How things work" (I have seen other
nonsense at that site).

Brain is presumably an EE. When I graduated there had been no reference
to the NEC, and no practical information about power systems, and in
particular earthing. Brain certainly shows no comprehension. krw, I
think, said most EE course work is electronics. There are at least 3
other EEs here. I haven't noticed any have particular information on
power distribution that they got in school.

I don't know why NEC would be covered in any engineering coursework.
It has no relevance.

Yes, I'm closer to microwatts than megawatts. My entire family are
power engineers, though. I got a lot of it by osmosis, which is as
close as I ever wanted to get to that stuff. ;-)

You would hope that an assistant prof would
check the stuff, but who knows if she did, who actually posted it
as part of the course, etc. You also have to wonder about any college
that uses stuff from "How stuff works" for course material.

I have not figured out how "she" has anything to do with the "piece"
except "she" is a prof at the same college that put up the "piece".

That's the way I see it. I believe she's been slandered.

But there is no question it's wrong.

But Danny found it on the internet....

Bon Jur!

Hey, didja hear that O J Simpson was framed by Romulans that beamed down
from a cloaked war-bird and tampered with the evidence in the crime lab.
If you don't believe it show me someone who says it isn't true.

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 19:18:41 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote:

wrote in :

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 03:09:10 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote:

wrote in :

The "neutral" is NEVER bare in North America (except in some parts
of rural Sakatchewan Canada, where single wire earth return IS
actually still in limited use)

Absolute nonsense. You see bare neutrals all over the place in rural areas of the U.S.
with
overhead service.

http://www.southwire.com/products/Tr...erviceDrop.htm

Don't you think it's time you stopped assuming that what is true in your [obviously limited]
experience is true everywhere?
In DISTRIBUTION, yes - but not on the "consumer" side.

Wrong again. Triplex cable (see link above) isn't used for distribution anywhere in the U.S.
that I'm aware of -- it is, however, very commonly used for service drops (from the
transformer to the customer's service mast).

Like I said... don't you think it's time you stopped assuming that what is true in your
obviously limited experience is true everywhere?
It is "distribution" untill it enters the building., or mast.

On 11/26/2013 01:28 PM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:


Idiot. Read this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-wire_earth_return


"Many national electrical regulations (notably the U.S.) require a
metallic return line from the load to the generator. In these
jurisdictions, each SWER line must be approved by exception."

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 11:49:22 -0800 (PST), TimR
wrote:

After bud's excellent explanation, we can see that Danny is almost right.

No, he's not.

The ground IS a parallel path for return, but most of the current will flow along the neutral wire.

He's talking about the return though the Earth (capital 'E'). That
just doesn't happen to any degree.

If there's not a neutral wire, then..........no don't go there. Yet.

Then you're screwed. Really bizarre things happen. BTDT.

Back to that single phase feeding the house from the transformer secondary for a second.

The center tap of that transformer is bonded to ground. That gives us a zero reference.

Google groupie's mess unfolded

But that technically is not necessary.

It *IS* necessary.

Your house would work fine without it.

Nope. You wouldn't have both 120 and 240 available.

Your oven would still "see" 240 volts and your lights 120.

Not without that center tap connected to the neutral, it wouldn't.

The problem is you might have a voltage difference between some of your equipment and ground.

I'm not sure what you're saying, now. You said the center-tapped
transformer wasn't necessary. If you mean that only the ground bond
from the center tap to ground was unnecessary, well, yeah, if you
don't mind electrocution.

But transformers are not limited to one tap.

OK... (gotta see where this is going...)

This secondary could easily be tapped at 60, 120, 180 and 240 volts referenced from tap to "low" terminal.

OK, but why

Do I now have 4-phase power?

Of course not. Starting with one phase you can only have one phase.
You can't make another. With two phases, you can make any number you
want, though.

Do I have four legs out of phase?

No, they're in phase, just like they are with the classical Edison
connection. That's what Trader can't get through his skull.

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 18:26:25 -0500, Ed wrote:

On 11/26/2013 04:48 PM, nestork wrote:
I think Danny now has a much better idea of how his electrical panel
works, and it's really just that part that matters. If he uses the
technically incorrect but easy to understand notion that power is
delivered by the L1 and L2 power cables that distribute power throughout
his house on red and black wires, and returns back to the panel on the
white wires, and that the L1 and L2 power sources are each 120 VAC
relative to the neutral, but 180 degrees out of phase so that there's
240 VAC between them, then he knows more than most homeowners and enough
not to electrocude himself, and that's what counts.

So I'm confused. Are my 240 volt appliances single phase or two phase?

Single.

wrote in :

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 19:18:41 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote:

wrote in :

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 03:09:10 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote:

wrote in :

The "neutral" is NEVER bare in North America (except in some parts
of rural Sakatchewan Canada, where single wire earth return IS
actually still in limited use)

Absolute nonsense. You see bare neutrals all over the place in rural areas of the U.S.
with
overhead service.

http://www.southwire.com/products/Tr...erviceDrop.htm

Don't you think it's time you stopped assuming that what is true in your [obviously
limited]
experience is true everywhere?
In DISTRIBUTION, yes - but not on the "consumer" side.

Wrong again. Triplex cable (see link above) isn't used for distribution anywhere in the
U.S.
that I'm aware of -- it is, however, very commonly used for service drops (from the
transformer to the customer's service mast).

Like I said... don't you think it's time you stopped assuming that what is true in your
obviously limited experience is true everywhere?
It is "distribution" untill it enters the building., or mast.

Maybe you need to look again at the title of the thread -- which has been *entirely* about
how service entrances are wired.

Bare neutrals on service entrances are very common, your delusions to the contrary
notwithstanding.