On Tuesday, November 26, 2013 8:04:48 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 11:49:22 -0800 (PST), TimR

wrote:



After bud's excellent explanation, we can see that Danny is almost right..



No, he's not.



The ground IS a parallel path for return, but most of the current will flow along the neutral wire.



He's talking about the return though the Earth (capital 'E'). That

just doesn't happen to any degree.



If there's not a neutral wire, then..........no don't go there. Yet.



Then you're screwed. Really bizarre things happen. BTDT.



Back to that single phase feeding the house from the transformer secondary for a second.



The center tap of that transformer is bonded to ground. That gives us a zero reference.



Google groupie's mess unfolded



But that technically is not necessary.



It *IS* necessary.



Your house would work fine without it.



Nope. You wouldn't have both 120 and 240 available.



Of course it would work. You just would not have the transformer
bonded to ground.



Your oven would still "see" 240 volts and your lights 120.



Not without that center tap connected to the neutral, it wouldn't.



Apparently you not only can't read IEEE papers, you can't read
what anyone said. He's clearly not talking about eliminating the
neutral, he's only talking about not earthing it.




The problem is you might have a voltage difference between some of your equipment and ground.



I'm not sure what you're saying, now. You said the center-tapped

transformer wasn't necessary.

He never said that.

If you mean that only the ground bond

from the center tap to ground was unnecessary, well, yeah, if you

don't mind electrocution.



It only took you about 6 tries to get it right.




But transformers are not limited to one tap.



OK... (gotta see where this is going...)



This secondary could easily be tapped at 60, 120, 180 and 240 volts referenced from tap to "low" terminal.



OK, but why



Now that is indeed a good question. He's taken a turn here
that I don't think anyone can figure out.



Do I now have 4-phase power?



Of course not. Starting with one phase you can only have one phase.



The IEEE says you're wrong.


You can't make another. With two phases, you can make any number you

want, though.



Do I have four legs out of phase?



No, they're in phase, just like they are with the classical Edison

connection. That's what Trader can't get through his skull.


Funny thing, I have the IEEE agreeing with me. From a recent IEEE published
paper delivered at an IEEE conference of power engineers.

http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/artic...number=4520128

"Distribution engineers have treated the standard "singlephase" distribution transformer connection as single phase because from the primary side of the transformer these connections are single phase and in the case of standard rural distribution single phase line to ground. However, with the advent of detailed circuit modeling we are beginning to see distribution modeling and analysis being accomplished past the transformer to the secondary. Which now brings into focus the reality that standard 120/240 secondary systems are not single phase line to ground systems, instead they are three wire systems with two phases and one ground wires. Further, the standard 120/240 secondary is different from the two phase primary system in that the secondary phases are separated by 180 degrees instead of three phases separated by 120 degrees."

Pay special attention to those last two sentences.
And just in case you want to claim this is some lightweight engineer,
here's a link to the multitude of IEEE papers he's authored:

http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/search/se....QT.Kersti ng, W.H..QT.&newsearch=true

So, the IEEE is wrong too?