Let's say I need to extend some wires that run in the joist space below a
crawl space attic above a bathroom. The crawl space has 1 x 4 flooring.

I know I can't simply remove the floor boards, install the junction box and
then conceal it with the floorboards.

However, can I replace the cut out floorboards with a piece of plywood with
an acrylic insert so that the junction box can be seen from above?

The plywood would be big enough to be used as an access panel spanning the
joist bay, the "window" would be large enough for the junction box to be
clearly visible.

If not acrylic, what about a steel grate?

On Sep 23, 7:53*pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:
Let's say I need to extend some wires that run in the joist space below a
crawl space attic above a bathroom. The crawl space has 1 x 4 flooring.

I know I can't simply remove the floor boards, install the junction box and
then conceal it with the floorboards.

However, can I replace the cut out floorboards with a piece of plywood with
an acrylic insert so that the junction box can be seen from above?

The plywood would be big enough to be used as an access panel spanning the
joist bay, the "window" would be large enough for the junction box to be
clearly visible.

If not acrylic, what about a steel grate?

Can you make the acrylic large enough to access the box and its cover
and the bushings through the edges of the box that secure the wire?
Maybe put a handle on the acrylic to make it easy to lift out of its
recess in the plywood and more visible to anyone who is in the attic.
Maybe someone with a lot of time can review the NEC.

DerbyDad03 wrote:
Let's say I need to extend some wires that run in the joist space below a
crawl space attic above a bathroom. The crawl space has 1 x 4 flooring.

I know I can't simply remove the floor boards, install the junction box and
then conceal it with the floorboards.

However, can I replace the cut out floorboards with a piece of plywood with
an acrylic insert so that the junction box can be seen from above?

The plywood would be big enough to be used as an access panel spanning the
joist bay, the "window" would be large enough for the junction box to be
clearly visible.

If not acrylic, what about a steel grate?

It doesn't have to be visible, just accessible.

You can "conceal" a junction box above a drop ceiling since it's easy to
access the box by removing a ceiling tile. The same basic principle
works in your attic. Leave a hole in the flooring, make a plywood panel
a couple inches larger than the hole, and screw on a few scraps to the
underside of the panel so it doesn't slide around.

DerbyDad:

I'm guessing you can't make the electrical connections accessible from the bathroom ceiling cuz it's a tiled ceiling. If that's the case, then just ignore this post.

If it's not a tiled ceiling, and you're open to the idea of putting a hole in the bathroom ceiling, then what do you think of:

0. I'd use a laminate trimmer or router with a 1/4 inch straight bit to make progressively deeper cuts in the floor boards over the middle of two neighboring ceiling joists (as you were needing to do anyhow), but then:

1. hold an electrical box snugly to the side of one ceiling joist and trace the outline of that electrical box on the top of the plaster or drywall ceiling.

2. drill small holes at the outer corners of that outline and cut out the plaster or drywall with a coping saw blade:



Hold the blade so that it cuts on the upstroke to make as neat and clean a hole as possible on your bathroom ceiling. Perhaps use a pair of needle nose style locking pliers to grip the coping saw blade and/or a helper in the bathroom below with another pair of locking pliers to help guide the blade.

3. Put the electrical box in position and mark the mounting holes on the side of the joist.

4. Use an awl to dimple the center of each hole location, and predrill the holes using a flexible shaft (which you should be able to get at Home Depot) suitable for mounting in an electric drill:



5. Attach your electrical box, make your connections and cover the hole in your ceiling with a blank plate:



That way, you're not gonna pi$$ off any electrical inspectors, cuz that's the way they'd have wanted you to do it to begin with.

6. Cut some new 1X4's to fit in the hole in your attic floor and fasten them down.

Let's say I need to extend some wires that run in the joist space below a
crawl space attic above a bathroom. The crawl space has 1 x 4 flooring.

I know I can't simply remove the floor boards, install the junction box
and
then conceal it with the floorboards.

However, can I replace the cut out floorboards with a piece of plywood
with
an acrylic insert so that the junction box can be seen from above?

The plywood would be big enough to be used as an access panel spanning the
joist bay, the "window" would be large enough for the junction box to be
clearly visible.

If not acrylic, what about a steel grate?


*You could install the junction box flush with the floorboards and just put
a blank cover on it. If that is not possible, just label the area where the
box is located. Paint the spot with white paint and label it "Junction box
below". It only needs to be accessible, not visible.

If this is that conduit that you were asking about a while back, you could
install a junction box with an extension box or mud ring on it to bring it
up to be flush with the floor.

nestork wrote:
DerbyDad:

I'm guessing you can't make the electrical connections accessible from
the bathroom ceiling cuz it's a tiled ceiling. If that's the case, then
just ignore this post.

If it's not a tiled ceiling, and you're open to the idea of putting a
hole in the bathroom ceiling, then what do you think of:

0. I'd use a laminate trimmer or router with a 1/4 inch straight bit to
make progressively deeper cuts in the floor boards over the middle of
two neighboring ceiling joists (as you were needing to do anyhow), but
then:

1. hold an electrical box snugly to the side of one ceiling joist and
trace the outline of that electrical box on the top of the plaster or
drywall ceiling.

2. drill small holes at the outer corners of that outline and cut out
the plaster or drywall with a coping saw blade:

[image:
http://www.wickes.co.uk/content/ebiz...des_large.jpg]

Hold the blade so that it cuts on the upstroke to make as neat and clean
a hole as possible on your bathroom ceiling. Perhaps use a pair of
needle nose style locking pliers to grip the coping saw blade and/or a
helper in the bathroom below with another pair of locking pliers to help
guide the blade.

3. Put the electrical box in position and mark the mounting holes on the
side of the joist.

4. Use an awl to dimple the center of each hole location, and predrill
the holes using a flexible shaft (which you should be able to get at
Home Depot) suitable for mounting in an electric drill:

[image: http://www.macwood.com.au/images/Flexible%20Shaft.jpg]

5. Attach your electrical box, make your connections and cover the hole
in your ceiling with a blank plate:

[image: http://www.datapro.net/images/76000.jpg]

That way, you're not gonna pi$$ off any electrical inspectors, cuz
that's the way they'd have wanted you to do it to begin with.

6. Cut some new 1X4's to fit in the hole in your attic floor and fasten
them down.




Are you suggesting that I leave the blank cover showing on the ceiling in
the bathroom?

That's not a very good look.

On Sep 24, 7:13*am, "John Grabowski" wrote:
Let's say I need to extend some wires that run in the joist space below a
crawl space attic above a bathroom. The crawl space has 1 x 4 flooring.

I know I can't simply remove the floor boards, install the junction box
and
then conceal it with the floorboards.

However, can I replace the cut out floorboards with a piece of plywood
with
an acrylic insert so that the junction box can be seen from above?

The plywood would be big enough to be used as an access panel spanning the
joist bay, the "window" would be large enough for the junction box to be
clearly visible.

If not acrylic, what about a steel grate?

*You could install the junction box flush with the floorboards and just put
a blank cover on it. *If that is not possible, just label the area where the
box is located. *Paint the spot with white paint and label it "Junction box
below". *It only needs to be accessible, not visible.

If this is that conduit that you were asking about a while back, you could
install a junction box with an extension box or mud ring on it to bring it
up to be flush with the floor.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I'm still trying to figure out the concept of floorboards in
a crawl space attic......

As for acrylic, as pointed out, the electrical box does not
have to be visible only accessible.

On Sep 24, 9:31*am, "
wrote:
On Sep 24, 7:13*am, "John Grabowski" wrote:





Let's say I need to extend some wires that run in the joist space below a
crawl space attic above a bathroom. The crawl space has 1 x 4 flooring.

I know I can't simply remove the floor boards, install the junction box
and
then conceal it with the floorboards.

However, can I replace the cut out floorboards with a piece of plywood
with
an acrylic insert so that the junction box can be seen from above?

The plywood would be big enough to be used as an access panel spanning the
joist bay, the "window" would be large enough for the junction box to be
clearly visible.

If not acrylic, what about a steel grate?

*You could install the junction box flush with the floorboards and just put
a blank cover on it. *If that is not possible, just label the area where the
box is located. *Paint the spot with white paint and label it "Junction box
below". *It only needs to be accessible, not visible.

If this is that conduit that you were asking about a while back, you could
install a junction box with an extension box or mud ring on it to bring it
up to be flush with the floor.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I'm still trying to figure out the concept of floorboards in
a crawl space attic......

To clarify, the entire attic, up to about 2' from where the rafters
meet the top plate of the wall, is floored with 1 x 4 T&G. Walls were
put up to create a room in the center of the attic. Behind these
walls, where the rafters make it impossible to stand, is the "crawl
space" that I am speaking of. My son wants to install a fan/light
fixture in the bathroom below, and lucky for him, the location for the
fan is below this crawl space, not the carpeted area of the finished
room. That gives him access to area above the ceiling, but the wires
for the existing light won't reach the coonections for the fan/light
fixture because of the way the fan is built. We need to extend those
wires with some new romex. I would rather replace the old cloth
covered wires completely, but they go off under the floor to who knows
where.

However, I'm not sure why you are having an issue with the concept.
The attic in my house is a crawl space, but there is plywood on top of
the ceiling joists to create a floor for storage. Why do floorboards
in a crawl space seem like such a strange concept?


As for acrylic, as pointed out, the electrical box does not
have to be visible only accessible.

So replacing the cut out floorboards by simply screwing them back onto
the joists is acceptable?

In article , says...

DerbyDad03 wrote:
Let's say I need to extend some wires that run in the joist space below a
crawl space attic above a bathroom. The crawl space has 1 x 4 flooring.

I know I can't simply remove the floor boards, install the junction box and
then conceal it with the floorboards.

However, can I replace the cut out floorboards with a piece of plywood with
an acrylic insert so that the junction box can be seen from above?

The plywood would be big enough to be used as an access panel spanning the
joist bay, the "window" would be large enough for the junction box to be
clearly visible.

If not acrylic, what about a steel grate?

It doesn't have to be visible, just accessible.


Right! Accessible, not necessarily visible.

The problem is that the wires in a junction box may come loose (need to
be able to open the junction box to fix the problem). Or if there is a
problem with a circuit, you can open that junction box and test the
wires.

If this is in a crawl space, can you get into the crawl space and then
get to that junction box from below? If yes, then it is accessible!

On Sep 23, 10:03*pm, nestork wrote:
DerbyDad:

I'm guessing you can't make the electrical connections accessible from
the bathroom ceiling cuz it's a tiled ceiling. *If that's the case, then
just ignore this post.

If it's not a tiled ceiling, and you're open to the idea of putting a
hole in the bathroom ceiling, then what do you think of:

0. I'd use a laminate trimmer or router with a 1/4 inch straight bit to
make progressively deeper cuts in the floor boards over the middle of
two neighboring ceiling joists (as you were needing to do anyhow), but
then:

1. hold an electrical box snugly to the side of one ceiling joist and
trace the outline of that electrical box on the top of the plaster or
drywall ceiling.

2. drill small holes at the outer corners of that outline and cut out
the plaster or drywall with a coping saw blade:

[image:http://www.wickes.co.uk/content/ebiz...ing-Saw-Bl...]

Hold the blade so that it cuts on the upstroke to make as neat and clean
a hole as possible on your bathroom ceiling. *Perhaps use a pair of
needle nose style locking pliers to grip the coping saw blade and/or a
helper in the bathroom below with another pair of locking pliers to help
guide the blade.

3. Put the electrical box in position and mark the mounting holes on the
side of the joist.

4. Use an awl to dimple the center of each hole location, and predrill
the holes using a flexible shaft (which you should be able to get at
Home Depot) suitable for mounting in an electric drill:

[image:http://www.macwood.com.au/images/Flexible%20Shaft.jpg]

5. Attach your electrical box, make your connections and cover the hole
in your ceiling with a blank plate:

[image:http://www.datapro.net/images/76000.jpg]

That way, you're not gonna pi$$ off any electrical inspectors, cuz
that's the way they'd have wanted you to do it to begin with.

6. Cut some new 1X4's to fit in the hole in your attic floor and fasten
them down.

--
nestork

I did that on my finished back porch. Doesn't allow access to
anything outside the box though. I do have one dtha pobably wouldn't
pass inspection. Done the same way but on a wall and inside a closet.

Harry K

On 9/23/2012 8:53 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
Let's say I need to extend some wires that run in the joist space below a
crawl space attic above a bathroom. The crawl space has 1 x 4 flooring.

I know I can't simply remove the floor boards, install the junction box and
then conceal it with the floorboards.

However, can I replace the cut out floorboards with a piece of plywood with
an acrylic insert so that the junction box can be seen from above?

The plywood would be big enough to be used as an access panel spanning the
joist bay, the "window" would be large enough for the junction box to be
clearly visible.

If not acrylic, what about a steel grate?


The NEC uses the wording readily accessible. That means you need to be
able to get to it without damaging the building. So if your access panel
is easily removable (hinged, pull out without cutting, damaging or
disturbing anything etc) you are good. Visibility is not a requirement
for what you described.

Sorry, somehow I got it in my head that you were wanting to rewire something in your bathroom ceiling, like a fan or ceiling light fixture.

If your new wiring doesn't have anything to do with the bathroom, then I think it would be OK to simply have an appropriately labeled plywood cover in your attic floor to access that junction box. Just paint the plywood or lumber white and mark it with a felt pen.

If the new wiring is going to the bathroom light or fan, then I expect any electrical inspector that ever sees that wiring would want to see access to that junction box from the bathroom.

On 9/24/2012 9:31 AM, wrote:
On Sep 24, 7:13 am, "John Grabowski" wrote:
Let's say I need to extend some wires that run in the joist space below a
crawl space attic above a bathroom. The crawl space has 1 x 4 flooring.

I know I can't simply remove the floor boards, install the junction box
and
then conceal it with the floorboards.

However, can I replace the cut out floorboards with a piece of plywood
with
an acrylic insert so that the junction box can be seen from above?

The plywood would be big enough to be used as an access panel spanning the
joist bay, the "window" would be large enough for the junction box to be
clearly visible.

If not acrylic, what about a steel grate?

*You could install the junction box flush with the floorboards and just put
a blank cover on it. If that is not possible, just label the area where the
box is located. Paint the spot with white paint and label it "Junction box
below". It only needs to be accessible, not visible.

If this is that conduit that you were asking about a while back, you could
install a junction box with an extension box or mud ring on it to bring it
up to be flush with the floor.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I'm still trying to figure out the concept of floorboards in
a crawl space attic......

You can see that on older homes where they did a first class job. The
house where we lived when I was a kid had yellow pine T&G on the minimal
height attic floor.



As for acrylic, as pointed out, the electrical box does not
have to be visible only accessible.

On Sep 24, 10:46*am, George wrote:
On 9/24/2012 9:31 AM, wrote:





On Sep 24, 7:13 am, "John Grabowski" wrote:
Let's say I need to extend some wires that run in the joist space below a
crawl space attic above a bathroom. The crawl space has 1 x 4 flooring.

I know I can't simply remove the floor boards, install the junction box
and
then conceal it with the floorboards.

However, can I replace the cut out floorboards with a piece of plywood
with
an acrylic insert so that the junction box can be seen from above?

The plywood would be big enough to be used as an access panel spanning the
joist bay, the "window" would be large enough for the junction box to be
clearly visible.

If not acrylic, what about a steel grate?

*You could install the junction box flush with the floorboards and just put
a blank cover on it. *If that is not possible, just label the area where the
box is located. *Paint the spot with white paint and label it "Junction box
below". *It only needs to be accessible, not visible.

If this is that conduit that you were asking about a while back, you could
install a junction box with an extension box or mud ring on it to bring it
up to be flush with the floor.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I'm still trying to figure out the concept of floorboards in
a crawl space attic......

You can see that on older homes where they did a first class job. The
house where we lived when I was a kid had yellow pine T&G on the minimal
height attic floor.


My house was built in 1956. All of the floors (except for the attic)
are 1 x 6 T&G pine.

The walls and ceilings are made of some sort of 3/8" x 8" (?) brown
paper covered T&G gypsum board, laid horizontally across the studs,
then covered with 3/8" of plaster, making them 3/4" thick.

There's no wood lath, which makes some projects easier, but there is
metal mesh in the ceiling/wall junctions which make some projects a
major pain. All in all, it's a very well build house.

The house where I'm helping my son with the fan is a mess when it
comes to the wiring. There is some real sloppy work that I simply do
not want to mess with. Whoever wired to room that they added in the
attic was a real hack.


As for acrylic, as pointed out, the electrical box does not
have to be visible only accessible.-.

On Sep 24, 10:43*am, George wrote:
On 9/23/2012 8:53 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

Let's say I need to extend some wires that run in the joist space below a
crawl space attic above a bathroom. The crawl space has 1 x 4 flooring.

I know I can't simply remove the floor boards, install the junction box and
then conceal it with the floorboards.

However, can I replace the cut out floorboards with a piece of plywood with
an acrylic insert so that the junction box can be seen from above?

The plywood would be big enough to be used as an access panel spanning the
joist bay, the "window" would be large enough for the junction box to be
clearly visible.

If not acrylic, what about a steel grate?

The NEC uses the wording readily accessible. That means you need to be
able to get to it without damaging the building. So if your access panel
is easily removable (hinged, pull out without cutting, damaging or
disturbing anything etc) you are good.

What I would like to hear is the word "screwed".

If a plywood panel is screwed across the joists to cover the hole,
would removing the screws be considered "disturbing" anything?

Should I just lay the plywood (maybe 12" x 16") in the opening and not
screw it down? Maybe add a small hole to make it easy to remove?

Visibility is not a requirement
for what you described.

On 9/24/2012 10:47 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Sep 24, 10:43 am, wrote:
On 9/23/2012 8:53 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

Let's say I need to extend some wires that run in the joist space below a
crawl space attic above a bathroom. The crawl space has 1 x 4 flooring.

I know I can't simply remove the floor boards, install the junction box and
then conceal it with the floorboards.

Correct...

....

If a plywood panel is screwed across the joists to cover the hole,
would removing the screws be considered "disturbing" anything?

That's fine but...

Should I just lay the plywood (maybe 12" x 16") in the opening and not
screw it down? Maybe add a small hole to make it easy to remove?

Visibility is not a requirement
for what you described.

If this is only a crawl-accessible attic space, what difference does it
make about having a solid surface in the end, anyway?

I'd just make the access room needed, install the (metal) junction box
w/ whatever blocking scheme is simplest facing up and flush or just
under the flooring height and use a metal cover plate and be done...

The possible fly in the ointment is that you may need two or a larger
than just a square box if you're having to cut into a run as there
possibly won't be sufficient extra length in the existing run to make
only a single junction...if it's the end of a run or you have access
from another junction point that's simpler.

--

On Mon, 24 Sep 2012 11:42:34 +0000 (UTC), DerbyDad03
wrote:

nestork wrote:
DerbyDad:

I'm guessing you can't make the electrical connections accessible from
the bathroom ceiling cuz it's a tiled ceiling. If that's the case, then
just ignore this post.

If it's not a tiled ceiling, and you're open to the idea of putting a
hole in the bathroom ceiling, then what do you think of:

0. I'd use a laminate trimmer or router with a 1/4 inch straight bit to
make progressively deeper cuts in the floor boards over the middle of
two neighboring ceiling joists (as you were needing to do anyhow), but
then:

1. hold an electrical box snugly to the side of one ceiling joist and
trace the outline of that electrical box on the top of the plaster or
drywall ceiling.

2. drill small holes at the outer corners of that outline and cut out
the plaster or drywall with a coping saw blade:

[image:
http://www.wickes.co.uk/content/ebiz...des_large.jpg]

Hold the blade so that it cuts on the upstroke to make as neat and clean
a hole as possible on your bathroom ceiling. Perhaps use a pair of
needle nose style locking pliers to grip the coping saw blade and/or a
helper in the bathroom below with another pair of locking pliers to help
guide the blade.

3. Put the electrical box in position and mark the mounting holes on the
side of the joist.

4. Use an awl to dimple the center of each hole location, and predrill
the holes using a flexible shaft (which you should be able to get at
Home Depot) suitable for mounting in an electric drill:

[image: http://www.macwood.com.au/images/Flexible%20Shaft.jpg]

5. Attach your electrical box, make your connections and cover the hole
in your ceiling with a blank plate:

[image: http://www.datapro.net/images/76000.jpg]

That way, you're not gonna pi$$ off any electrical inspectors, cuz
that's the way they'd have wanted you to do it to begin with.

6. Cut some new 1X4's to fit in the hole in your attic floor and fasten
them down.




Are you suggesting that I leave the blank cover showing on the ceiling in
the bathroom?

That's not a very good look.
The other alternative is to put a piano hinge and latch on the
floorboard you cut for the access.

On Mon, 24 Sep 2012 07:25:54 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Sep 24, 9:31Â*am, "
wrote:
On Sep 24, 7:13Â*am, "John Grabowski" wrote:





Let's say I need to extend some wires that run in the joist space below a
crawl space attic above a bathroom. The crawl space has 1 x 4 flooring.

I know I can't simply remove the floor boards, install the junction box
and
then conceal it with the floorboards.

However, can I replace the cut out floorboards with a piece of plywood
with
an acrylic insert so that the junction box can be seen from above?

The plywood would be big enough to be used as an access panel spanning the
joist bay, the "window" would be large enough for the junction box to be
clearly visible.

If not acrylic, what about a steel grate?

*You could install the junction box flush with the floorboards and just put
a blank cover on it. Â*If that is not possible, just label the area where the
box is located. Â*Paint the spot with white paint and label it "Junction box
below". Â*It only needs to be accessible, not visible.

If this is that conduit that you were asking about a while back, you could
install a junction box with an extension box or mud ring on it to bring it
up to be flush with the floor.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I'm still trying to figure out the concept of floorboards in
a crawl space attic......

To clarify, the entire attic, up to about 2' from where the rafters
meet the top plate of the wall, is floored with 1 x 4 T&G. Walls were
put up to create a room in the center of the attic. Behind these
walls, where the rafters make it impossible to stand, is the "crawl
space" that I am speaking of. My son wants to install a fan/light
fixture in the bathroom below, and lucky for him, the location for the
fan is below this crawl space, not the carpeted area of the finished
room. That gives him access to area above the ceiling, but the wires
for the existing light won't reach the coonections for the fan/light
fixture because of the way the fan is built. We need to extend those
wires with some new romex. I would rather replace the old cloth
covered wires completely, but they go off under the floor to who knows
where.

However, I'm not sure why you are having an issue with the concept.
The attic in my house is a crawl space, but there is plywood on top of
the ceiling joists to create a floor for storage. Why do floorboards
in a crawl space seem like such a strange concept?


As for acrylic, as pointed out, the electrical box does not
have to be visible only accessible.

So replacing the cut out floorboards by simply screwing them back onto
the joists is acceptable?
Techninally, no. Hinging the floorboard at one end and screwing down
the other to make an "access panel" is. The hinge makes it obviously
accessible. A screwed down floorboard less so.

Let's say I need to extend some wires that run in the joist space
below a
crawl space attic above a bathroom. The crawl space has 1 x 4
flooring.

I know I can't simply remove the floor boards, install the junction
box
and
then conceal it with the floorboards.

However, can I replace the cut out floorboards with a piece of plywood
with
an acrylic insert so that the junction box can be seen from above?

The plywood would be big enough to be used as an access panel spanning
the
joist bay, the "window" would be large enough for the junction box to
be
clearly visible.

If not acrylic, what about a steel grate?

*You could install the junction box flush with the floorboards and just
put
a blank cover on it. If that is not possible, just label the area where
the
box is located. Paint the spot with white paint and label it "Junction
box
below". It only needs to be accessible, not visible.

If this is that conduit that you were asking about a while back, you
could
install a junction box with an extension box or mud ring on it to bring
it
up to be flush with the floor.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I'm still trying to figure out the concept of floorboards in
a crawl space attic......

To clarify, the entire attic, up to about 2' from where the rafters
meet the top plate of the wall, is floored with 1 x 4 T&G. Walls were
put up to create a room in the center of the attic. Behind these
walls, where the rafters make it impossible to stand, is the "crawl
space" that I am speaking of. My son wants to install a fan/light
fixture in the bathroom below, and lucky for him, the location for the
fan is below this crawl space, not the carpeted area of the finished
room. That gives him access to area above the ceiling, but the wires
for the existing light won't reach the coonections for the fan/light
fixture because of the way the fan is built. We need to extend those
wires with some new romex. I would rather replace the old cloth
covered wires completely, but they go off under the floor to who knows
where.

However, I'm not sure why you are having an issue with the concept.
The attic in my house is a crawl space, but there is plywood on top of
the ceiling joists to create a floor for storage. Why do floorboards
in a crawl space seem like such a strange concept?


As for acrylic, as pointed out, the electrical box does not
have to be visible only accessible.



So replacing the cut out floorboards by simply screwing them back onto
the joists is acceptable?


*Yes, but please label the location for the next electrician.

On 9/24/2012 11:01 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Sep 24, 10:46 am, George wrote:
On 9/24/2012 9:31 AM, wrote:





On Sep 24, 7:13 am, "John Grabowski" wrote:
Let's say I need to extend some wires that run in the joist space below a
crawl space attic above a bathroom. The crawl space has 1 x 4 flooring.

I know I can't simply remove the floor boards, install the junction box
and
then conceal it with the floorboards.

However, can I replace the cut out floorboards with a piece of plywood
with
an acrylic insert so that the junction box can be seen from above?

The plywood would be big enough to be used as an access panel spanning the
joist bay, the "window" would be large enough for the junction box to be
clearly visible.

If not acrylic, what about a steel grate?

*You could install the junction box flush with the floorboards and just put
a blank cover on it. If that is not possible, just label the area where the
box is located. Paint the spot with white paint and label it "Junction box
below". It only needs to be accessible, not visible.

If this is that conduit that you were asking about a while back, you could
install a junction box with an extension box or mud ring on it to bring it
up to be flush with the floor.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I'm still trying to figure out the concept of floorboards in
a crawl space attic......

You can see that on older homes where they did a first class job. The
house where we lived when I was a kid had yellow pine T&G on the minimal
height attic floor.


My house was built in 1956. All of the floors (except for the attic)
are 1 x 6 T&G pine.

The walls and ceilings are made of some sort of 3/8" x 8" (?) brown
paper covered T&G gypsum board, laid horizontally across the studs,
then covered with 3/8" of plaster, making them 3/4" thick.

Thats how they did plaster walls after migrating away from wood and
metal lath. I don't remember it being 8'. I think it (at least the
stuff I saw) was 4' wide and maybe 16" high. A little searching says it
was called "rock lath"



There's no wood lath, which makes some projects easier, but there is
metal mesh in the ceiling/wall junctions which make some projects a
major pain. All in all, it's a very well build house.

The house where I'm helping my son with the fan is a mess when it
comes to the wiring. There is some real sloppy work that I simply do
not want to mess with. Whoever wired to room that they added in the
attic was a real hack.


As for acrylic, as pointed out, the electrical box does not
have to be visible only accessible.-.

On Sep 24, 12:05*pm, dpb wrote:
On 9/24/2012 10:47 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

On Sep 24, 10:43 am, *wrote:
On 9/23/2012 8:53 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

Let's say I need to extend some wires that run in the joist space below a
crawl space attic above a bathroom. The crawl space has 1 x 4 flooring.

I know I can't simply remove the floor boards, install the junction box and
then conceal it with the floorboards.

Correct...

...

If a plywood panel is screwed across the joists to cover the hole,
would removing the screws be considered "disturbing" anything?

That's fine but...

Should I just lay the plywood (maybe 12" x 16") in the opening and not
screw it down? Maybe add a small hole to make it easy to remove?

* Visibility is not a requirement
for what you described.

If this is only a crawl-accessible attic space, what difference does it
make about having a solid surface in the end, anyway?

The hole we made is bigger than just for the junction box. We opened
the floor above the fan/light we are installing to make it easier to
feed the wires from the source and switches into the junction box that
is built into the fan. That's when we discovered that the source wires
would barely reach into the fan. and besides even if they did reach,
the cloth insulation at the ends was breaking down from heat, movement
etc. I decided to cut them back about a foot to good clean insulation,
install the junction box and run new romex to the fan. That way I have
no cloth covered wire in the fixture.

I'd prefer not to leave the hole above the fan and junction box open
in case someone crawls back there or decides to store something back
there. It's right around a dark corner and I can imagine someone
putting a hand in the hole and hurting themselves or the fan.

Installing the junction box flush with the floor might be possible,
but the old source wire runs under a wall into the finished space
where it's stapled or attached to the joist in some manner. I don't
have a lot of room or much slack. I'm really reluctant to disturb the
old wire any more than I need to because of it's condition. Cutting it
back and adding the junction box in line with the existing wire is
about as much as I want to do. Trust me, if you saw what I was up
against, I think you'd agree.

I think I'll go with a drop-in panel, marked to note that there's a
junction box below and add 2 finger holes marked with "Lift Here To
Open.".

I cut the floorboards back to the center of the joists, so once the
panel is dropped in, it can't fall out, tilt or shift, With that
solution, the junction box and fixture will be accessible from above.

Thanks for the suggestions.


I'd just make the access room needed, install the (metal) junction box
w/ whatever blocking scheme is simplest facing up and flush or just
under the flooring height and use a metal cover plate and be done...

The possible fly in the ointment is that you may need two or a larger
than just a square box if you're having to cut into a run as there
possibly won't be sufficient extra length in the existing run to make
only a single junction...if it's the end of a run or you have access
from another junction point that's simpler.

--

On Sep 24, 1:01*pm, George wrote:
On 9/24/2012 11:01 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:





On Sep 24, 10:46 am, George wrote:
On 9/24/2012 9:31 AM, wrote:

On Sep 24, 7:13 am, "John Grabowski" wrote:
Let's say I need to extend some wires that run in the joist space below a
crawl space attic above a bathroom. The crawl space has 1 x 4 flooring.

I know I can't simply remove the floor boards, install the junction box
and
then conceal it with the floorboards.

However, can I replace the cut out floorboards with a piece of plywood
with
an acrylic insert so that the junction box can be seen from above?

The plywood would be big enough to be used as an access panel spanning the
joist bay, the "window" would be large enough for the junction box to be
clearly visible.

If not acrylic, what about a steel grate?

*You could install the junction box flush with the floorboards and just put
a blank cover on it. *If that is not possible, just label the area where the
box is located. *Paint the spot with white paint and label it "Junction box
below". *It only needs to be accessible, not visible.

If this is that conduit that you were asking about a while back, you could
install a junction box with an extension box or mud ring on it to bring it
up to be flush with the floor.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I'm still trying to figure out the concept of floorboards in
a crawl space attic......

You can see that on older homes where they did a first class job. The
house where we lived when I was a kid had yellow pine T&G on the minimal
height attic floor.

My house was built in 1956. All of the floors (except for the attic)
are 1 x 6 T&G pine.

The walls and ceilings are made of some sort of 3/8" x 8" (?) brown
paper covered T&G gypsum board, laid horizontally across the studs,
then covered with 3/8" of plaster, making them 3/4" thick.

Thats how they did plaster walls after migrating away from wood and
metal lath. *I don't remember it being 8'. *I think it (at least the
stuff I saw) *was 4' wide and maybe 16" high. A little searching says it
was called "rock lath"

You may be right, it might be 16" inches. It's been a while since I've
torn any walls out.

I might check when I get home. If I recall correctly, I can see the
back of a bedroom wall from the access panel for the shower.



There's no wood lath, which makes some projects easier, but there is
metal mesh in the ceiling/wall junctions which make some projects a
major pain. All in all, it's a very well build house.

The house where I'm helping my son with the fan is a mess when it
comes to the wiring. There is some real sloppy work that I simply do
not want to mess with. Whoever wired to room that they added in the
attic was a real hack.

As for acrylic, as pointed out, the electrical box does not
have to be visible only accessible.-.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On Sunday, September 23, 2012 8:53:47 PM UTC-4, DerbyDad03 wrote:
Let's say I need to extend some wires that run in the joist space below a

crawl space attic above a bathroom. The crawl space has 1 x 4 flooring.



I know I can't simply remove the floor boards, install the junction box and

then conceal it with the floorboards.



However, can I replace the cut out floorboards with a piece of plywood with

an acrylic insert so that the junction box can be seen from above?



The plywood would be big enough to be used as an access panel spanning the

joist bay, the "window" would be large enough for the junction box to be

clearly visible.



If not acrylic, what about a steel grate?

a 24 hour security monitored camera would probably be more acceptable to god and the police state.

DerbyDad03 wrote in
:

Let's say I need to extend some wires that run in the joist space below a
crawl space attic above a bathroom. The crawl space has 1 x 4 flooring.

I know I can't simply remove the floor boards, install the junction box and
then conceal it with the floorboards.

You can, if the floorboards are removable. Nail them in place, and you have a Code
violation.

However, can I replace the cut out floorboards with a piece of plywood with
an acrylic insert so that the junction box can be seen from above?

Visibility isn't the issue, it's accessibility.

The NEC says that all junction boxes must be "accessible" and defines that term as
"capable of being removed or exposed without damaging the building structure or finish or
not permanently closed in by the structure or finish of the building."

A junction box located behind a removable solid steel panel, although concealed from
sight, is still accessible and therefore Code-compliant; a box behind a clear acrylic panel
which has been cemented in place is visible but not accessible and therefore not Code-
compliant.

On Sep 24, 3:01*pm, Doug Miller
wrote:
DerbyDad03 wrote :

Let's say I need to extend some wires that run in the joist space below a
crawl space attic above a bathroom. The crawl space has 1 x 4 flooring.

I know I can't simply remove the floor boards, install the junction box and
then conceal it with the floorboards.

You can, if the floorboards are removable. Nail them in place, and you have a Code
violation.

Do screws equate to nails in this instance?

Even though I'm planning on going with a drop-in plywood panel that
will just rest on the joists, I'm still curoius...

Is an access panel secured by screws allowed or does "removable" imply
no tools required?

BTW, the drop-in panel will have a finger hole so that no tools, such
as pry bar, will be required to remove it. We'll let gravity hold it
in place.


However, can I replace the cut out floorboards with a piece of plywood with
an acrylic insert so that the junction box can be seen from above?

Visibility isn't the issue, it's accessibility.

The NEC says that all junction boxes must be "accessible" and defines that term as
"capable of being removed or exposed without damaging the building structure or finish or
not permanently closed in by the structure or finish of the building."

A junction box located behind a removable solid steel panel, although concealed from
sight, is still accessible and therefore Code-compliant; a box behind a clear acrylic panel
which has been cemented in place is visible but not accessible and therefore not Code-
compliant.

On Sep 24, 3:18*pm, wrote:
On Mon, 24 Sep 2012 10:35:56 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03





wrote:
On Sep 24, 1:01*pm, George wrote:
On 9/24/2012 11:01 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

On Sep 24, 10:46 am, George wrote:
On 9/24/2012 9:31 AM, wrote:

On Sep 24, 7:13 am, "John Grabowski" wrote:
Let's say I need to extend some wires that run in the joist space below a
crawl space attic above a bathroom. The crawl space has 1 x 4 flooring.

I know I can't simply remove the floor boards, install the junction box
and
then conceal it with the floorboards.

However, can I replace the cut out floorboards with a piece of plywood
with
an acrylic insert so that the junction box can be seen from above?

The plywood would be big enough to be used as an access panel spanning the
joist bay, the "window" would be large enough for the junction box to be
clearly visible.

If not acrylic, what about a steel grate?

*You could install the junction box flush with the floorboards and just put
a blank cover on it. *If that is not possible, just label the area where the
box is located. *Paint the spot with white paint and label it "Junction box
below". *It only needs to be accessible, not visible.

If this is that conduit that you were asking about a while back, you could
install a junction box with an extension box or mud ring on it to bring it
up to be flush with the floor.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I'm still trying to figure out the concept of floorboards in
a crawl space attic......

You can see that on older homes where they did a first class job. The
house where we lived when I was a kid had yellow pine T&G on the minimal
height attic floor.

My house was built in 1956. All of the floors (except for the attic)
are 1 x 6 T&G pine.

The walls and ceilings are made of some sort of 3/8" x 8" (?) brown
paper covered T&G gypsum board, laid horizontally across the studs,
then covered with 3/8" of plaster, making them 3/4" thick.

Thats how they did plaster walls after migrating away from wood and
metal lath. *I don't remember it being 8'. *I think it (at least the
stuff I saw) *was 4' wide and maybe 16" high. A little searching says it
was called "rock lath"

You may be right, it might be 16" inches. It's been a while since I've
torn any walls out.

I might check when I get home. If I recall correctly, I can see the
back of a bedroom wall from the access panel for the shower.

There's no wood lath, which makes some projects easier, but there is
metal mesh in the ceiling/wall junctions which make some projects a
major pain. All in all, it's a very well build house.

The house where I'm helping my son with the fan is a mess when it
comes to the wiring. There is some real sloppy work that I simply do
not want to mess with. Whoever wired to room that they added in the
attic was a real hack.

As for acrylic, as pointed out, the electrical box does not
have to be visible only accessible.-.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

One elegant solution might be a floor outlet. Get the correct floor
box and you will have plenty of room for your splices and get an extra
outlet to boot.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Not a bad idea...not something I want to get into with this project,
but certainly something to keep in the old back pocket.

On 9/24/2012 12:18 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
....

I think I'll go with a drop-in panel, marked to note that there's a
junction box below and add 2 finger holes marked with "Lift Here To
Open.".

I cut the floorboards back to the center of the joists, so once the
panel is dropped in, it can't fall out, tilt or shift, With that
solution, the junction box and fixture will be accessible from above.
....

That'll work, too...but if you thought ahead and were careful in the
removal process you should be able to just lay the flooring removed back
in the opening...

--

On Sep 24, 7:03*pm, dpb wrote:
On 9/24/2012 12:18 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
...

I think I'll go with a drop-in panel, marked to note that there's a
junction box below and add 2 finger holes marked with "Lift Here To
Open.".

I cut the floorboards back to the center of the joists, so once the
panel is dropped in, it can't fall out, tilt or shift, With that
solution, the junction box and fixture will be accessible from above.

...

That'll work, too...but if you thought ahead and were careful in the
removal process you should be able to just lay the flooring removed back
in the opening...

--

I like the idea of making the box itself directly accessible from the
attic floor, using an extender on the box if necessary to bring it up
to the attic floor level, and then using a regular solid cover on the
box so it is fully covered but easily accessible. In my attic, I did
that, but used a cover with a cutout for an duplex outlet so I have
an easy place in the attic to plug in a trouble light.

dpb wrote:
On 9/24/2012 12:18 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
...

I think I'll go with a drop-in panel, marked to note that there's a
junction box below and add 2 finger holes marked with "Lift Here To
Open.".

I cut the floorboards back to the center of the joists, so once the
panel is dropped in, it can't fall out, tilt or shift, With that
solution, the junction box and fixture will be accessible from above.
...

That'll work, too...but if you thought ahead and were careful in the
removal process you should be able to just lay the flooring removed back in the opening...

--

That's probable...maybe I'll just do that. I could certainly cut a piece of
plywood to fit tighter, but I don't know if that's necessary.

Thanks.

On 9/24/2012 10:43 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
wrote:
....

That'll work, too...but if you thought ahead and were careful in the
removal process you should be able to just lay the flooring
removed back in the opening...

That's probable...maybe I'll just do that. I could certainly cut a piece of
plywood to fit tighter, but I don't know if that's necessary.

Certainly don't see any reason it would be.

--

dpb wrote:
On 9/24/2012 10:43 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
wrote:
...

That'll work, too...but if you thought ahead and were careful in the
removal process you should be able to just lay the flooring
removed back in the opening...

That's probable...maybe I'll just do that. I could certainly cut a piece of
plywood to fit tighter, but I don't know if that's necessary.

Certainly don't see any reason it would be.

--

The main reason would my anal need for something "more finished" than just
lying loose floorboards over a hole.

On 9/25/2012 3:56 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
....

The main reason would my anal need for something "more finished" than just
lying loose floorboards over a hole.

So you'll lay loose ply instead...

Either is "fastenable" if desired (if really needed which is unlikely,
too...)

--

Why do floorboards
in a crawl space seem like such a strange concept?


A "crawl space" typically refers to a basement - one in which you can
not stand up - the level below the 1st floor.

DerbyDad03 wrote in
.
com:

On Sep 24, 3:01*pm, Doug Miller
wrote:
You can, if the floorboards are removable. Nail them in place,
and you have a Code violation.

Do screws equate to nails in this instance?

Even though I'm planning on going with a drop-in plywood panel
that will just rest on the joists, I'm still curoius...

Is an access panel secured by screws allowed or does "removable"
imply no tools required?

No, it does not -- a panel secured by screws is fine.

BTW, the drop-in panel will have a finger hole so that no tools,
such as pry bar, will be required to remove it. We'll let
gravity hold it in place.

That should be great.

On Sep 25, 11:13*am, Bill wrote:
Why do floorboards
in a crawl space seem like such a strange concept?

A "crawl space" typically refers to a basement - one in which you can
not stand up - the level below the 1st floor.

I'm not quite sure what "typically" means in this case.

If you'll read the post that prompted that question, trader said:

"I'm still trying to figure out the concept of floorboards in a crawl
space attic......"

I guess if you say "crawl space" by itself, most people would assume
an area below the 1st floor, but if you qualify it by saying "crawl
space attic", as I did in my OP and as trader did in his post, the
term couldn't be construed as a "below the 1st floor" space.

If you Google "crawl space attic" either as a web search or an image
search, you'll get lots of hits.

On Sep 25, 10:32*am, Doug Miller
wrote:
DerbyDad03 wrote .
com:

On Sep 24, 3:01*pm, Doug Miller
wrote:
You can, if the floorboards are removable. Nail them in place,
and you have a Code violation.

Do screws equate to nails in this instance?

Even though I'm planning on going with a drop-in plywood panel
that will just rest on the joists, I'm still curoius...

Is an access panel secured by screws allowed or does "removable"
imply no tools required?

No, it does not -- a panel secured by screws is fine.



BTW, the drop-in panel will have a finger hole so that no tools,
such as pry bar, will be required to remove it. We'll let
gravity hold it in place.

That should be great.

You could put a hinge along one side of the insert to ensure it does
not get lost when the cover is opened.