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#1
Posted to alt.home.repair,misc.consumers.frugal-living,misc.consumers.house
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New (house) heating system... is this a good/great deal?
I get an unsolicited call around a month ago and it's a woman who says
they are with a program that might install a heater in my house (Berkeley, CA). She didn't say that exactly, but that's where the conversation went because that's what I need. The heater in my almost 2000 square foot two story 101 year old house was a floor heater that's been disconnected and in the crawl space under the house, rusting since I moved in here in 1983. I bought the house (was renting with others before) in 2000. I'm very low income right now and have qualified for a few assistance programs but when contacted in the past I didn't qualify for help putting in a heating system because mine wasn't connected and functioning. I explained this to the woman but she seemed to think it didn't matter. She makes an appointment for a guy to come over and check out the house. The appointment was yesterday and the guy was nice as hell, worked up a plan in a matter of 1/2 hour - 45 minutes and I asked him if I could have a few days to make up my mind. He'd said there was a time limit and a limit on the number of rebates that would be issued, so he'd made it sound like I better act fast (yes, a common tactic and I don't know how for real this was). I asked him if he could call me Tuesday afternoon or Wednesday (today's Sunday). The old heating system sent up heat through a grate in the floor, AFAIK being only a single one in the center of the downstairs in the living room. This guy asked me if there was any ducting or way to send ducts up to the 2nd floor. If not, he said I'd either have to have just one heater (heat gets to the 2nd floor by rising up the staircases, there being one in front and one in back) or have 2 heaters, one in the crawl space and the other in the attic. Without bothering to go up into the attic or have a close look to see if ducting is possible from the crawl space to the 2nd floor, he decides it's not feasible (he may be right in that, but I'm not at all sure), he tells me if I want other than heat rising up the stairwells I need that 2nd heater in the attic. He makes a cell call to a guy in the office and asks about that and says they can get me an even greater rebate on a 2nd heater. If I have just one heater it will cost me around $7500, with 2 it will be $13,290 after 2 rebates from my utility company, PGE (evidently about $150 each), a "voucher amount" of $4000, federal tax credit of $400. He says they will provide 6 supply registers, 2 independent digital thermostats (one upstairs and one downstairs). They will remove the old rusted heater in the crawl space. They will have to widen one opening to the crawl space to get equipment (i.e. the heater itself) into the space and remove the old heater. Most of the accesses are surrounded by brick, but I think there's one they can hack into with saws. Presumably they'll repair. They say they'll install ducting (2"). What it actually says on the form he gave me is "Add new (if required) PVC 2" flue system up to 10ft." The heating system is rated at 95.5% AFUE (efficiency). The form says "Seal ducting system to current Title 24 standards as required by law." He said this included pressure testing. He tells me they have a program where I can go 1 year without interest if I start paying $450/month. Does this seem like a good/great smart deal? Or should I shop around? The company is California Energy Services, and their site is californiaenergyservices.com. This morning it occurred to me that I maybe should ask if it's possible to close off some of the supply lines (registers, I think they're called?). I live alone here and in a cold snap in the winter I might want to just heat part of the house or even one room if possible. If I keep the whole house warm or even half, it would use more gas than necessary. Is that a reasonable idea? Email: dmusicant at pacbell dot net |
#2
Posted to alt.home.repair,misc.consumers.frugal-living,misc.consumers.house
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New (house) heating system... is this a good/great deal?
In article ,
Dan Musicant wrote: Does this seem like a good/great smart deal? It sounds like a complete scam. Or should I shop around? Yes. |
#3
Posted to alt.home.repair,misc.consumers.frugal-living,misc.consumers.house
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New (house) heating system... is this a good/great deal?
My personal take is, I'll do the calling. Absolutely no cold calls for
me. --- snip --- On Jul 3, 10:51*am, Dan Musicant wrote: I get an unsolicited call around a month ago and it's a woman who says they are with a program that might install a heater in my house (Berkeley, CA). She didn't say that exactly, but that's where the |
#4
Posted to alt.home.repair,misc.consumers.frugal-living,misc.consumers.house
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New (house) heating system... is this a good/great deal?
Forgot to say, the system he's proposing is a "Trane System," (he said I
may have heard of them, said they are extremely good, I may have seen them at Home Depot), said their warranty (10 year limited parts and labor and limited lifetime warranty on heat exchanger) would extend to new owner if I sell the house, something he said only Trane does. The form said it's a 2 stage variable air flow system. Dan Email: dmusicant at pacbell dot net |
#5
Posted to alt.home.repair,misc.consumers.frugal-living,misc.consumers.house
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New (house) heating system... is this a good/great deal?
Dan Musicant wrote:
If I have just one heater it will cost me around $7500, with 2 it will be $13,290 after 2 rebates from my utility company, PGE (evidently about $150 each), a "voucher amount" of $4000, federal tax credit of $400. Sounds like an awful lot of money. Get an estimate from a contractor you call and see how it compares before you even consider this. Plus, check with your state contractors licensing agency about the contractor's reputation, and google their name plus the word complaints,or scam, or crime. When you contact the state, make sure you have their state contractor's license #. |
#6
Posted to alt.home.repair,misc.consumers.frugal-living,misc.consumers.house
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New (house) heating system... is this a good/great deal?
On Jul 3, 12:22*pm, "Bob F" wrote:
Dan Musicant wrote: If I have just one heater it will cost me around $7500, with 2 it will be $13,290 after 2 rebates from my utility company, PGE (evidently about $150 each), a "voucher amount" of $4000, federal tax credit of $400. Sounds like an awful lot of money. Get an estimate from a contractor you call and see how it compares before you even consider this. Plus, check with your state contractors licensing agency about the contractor's reputation, and google their name plus the word complaints,or scam, or crime. When you contact the state, make sure you have their state contractor's license #. price sounds too high 3 years ago I got a goodman furnace and air install for 3500 bucks with 10 year warranty..... complete price to fed tax credit that year |
#7
Posted to alt.home.repair,misc.consumers.frugal-living,misc.consumers.house
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New (house) heating system... is this a good/great deal?
Dan Musicant wrote:
I get an unsolicited call around a month ago and it's a woman who says they are with a program that might install a heater in my house (Berkeley, CA). She didn't say that exactly, but that's where the conversation went because that's what I need. The heater in my almost 2000 square foot two story 101 year old house was a floor heater that's been disconnected and in the crawl space under the house, rusting since I moved in here in 1983. I bought the house (was renting with others before) in 2000. .. . . If I have just one heater it will cost me around $7500, with 2 it will be $13,290 after 2 rebates from my utility company, PGE (evidently about $150 each), a "voucher amount" of $4000, federal tax credit of $400. ANY "offer" with a 3-day deadline is likely to be a scam. $7500 for a single Trane 95% furnace is WAY TOO MUCH even BEFORE any "vouchers," rebates, or credits! If you really need a new furnace, call several reputable companies and get estimates. Trane, York, Lennox, and a few other major furnace brands are equivalent in most respects. |
#8
Posted to alt.home.repair,misc.consumers.frugal-living,misc.consumers.house
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New (house) heating system... is this a good/great deal?
On Jul 3, 10:51*am, Dan Musicant wrote:
I get an unsolicited call around a month ago and it's a woman who says they are with a program that might install a heater in my house (Berkeley, CA). She didn't say that exactly, but that's where the conversation went because that's what I need. The heater in my almost 2000 square foot two story 101 year old house was a floor heater that's been disconnected and in the crawl space under the house, rusting since I moved in here in 1983. I bought the house (was renting with others before) in 2000. I'm very low income right now and have qualified for a few assistance programs but when contacted in the past I didn't qualify for help putting in a heating system because mine wasn't connected and functioning. I explained this to the woman but she seemed to think it didn't matter. She makes an appointment for a guy to come over and check out the house. The appointment was yesterday and the guy was nice as hell, worked up a plan in a matter of 1/2 hour - 45 minutes and I asked him if I could have a few days to make up my mind. He'd said there was a time limit and a limit on the number of rebates that would be issued, so he'd made it sound like I better act fast (yes, a common tactic and I don't know how for real this was). I asked him if he could call me Tuesday afternoon or Wednesday (today's Sunday). The old heating system sent up heat through a grate in the floor, AFAIK being only a single one in the center of the downstairs in the living room. This guy asked me if there was any ducting or way to send ducts up to the 2nd floor. If not, he said I'd either have to have just one heater (heat gets to the 2nd floor by rising up the staircases, there being one in front and one in back) or have 2 heaters, one in the crawl space and the other in the attic. Without bothering to go up into the attic or have a close look to see if ducting is possible from the crawl space to the 2nd floor, he decides it's not feasible (he may be right in that, but I'm not at all sure), he tells me if I want other than heat rising up the stairwells I need that 2nd heater in the attic. He makes a cell call to a guy in the office and asks about that and says they can get me an even greater rebate on a 2nd heater. If I have just one heater it will cost me around $7500, with 2 it will be $13,290 after 2 rebates from my utility company, PGE (evidently about $150 each), a "voucher amount" of $4000, federal tax credit of $400. He says they will provide 6 supply registers, 2 independent digital thermostats (one upstairs and one downstairs). They will remove the old rusted heater in the crawl space. They will have to widen one opening to the crawl space to get equipment (i.e. the heater itself) into the space and remove the old heater. Most of the accesses are surrounded by brick, but I think there's one they can hack into with saws. Presumably they'll repair. They say they'll install ducting (2"). What it actually says on the form he gave me is "Add new (if required) PVC 2" flue system up to 10ft." The heating system is rated at 95.5% AFUE (efficiency). The form says "Seal ducting system to current Title 24 standards as required by law." He said this included pressure testing. He tells me they have a program where I can go 1 year without interest if I start paying $450/month. Does this seem like a good/great smart deal? Or should I shop around? The company is California Energy Services, and their site is californiaenergyservices.com. This morning it occurred to me that I maybe should ask if it's possible to close off some of the supply lines (registers, I think they're called?). I live alone here and in a cold snap in the winter I might want to just heat part of the house or even one room if possible. If I keep the whole house warm or even half, it would use more gas than necessary. Is that a reasonable idea? Email: dmusicant at pacbell dot net That kind of approach is almost guaranteed to be a scam. Best approach is to call one or more local contractors that handle recognizable products and get quotes. RonB |
#9
Posted to alt.home.repair,misc.consumers.frugal-living,misc.consumers.house
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New (house) heating system... is this a good/great deal?
On Jul 3, 10:51*am, Dan Musicant wrote:
I get an unsolicited call around a month ago and it's a woman who says they are with a program that might install a heater in my house (Berkeley, CA). She didn't say that exactly, but that's where the conversation went because that's what I need. The heater in my almost 2000 square foot two story 101 year old house was a floor heater that's been disconnected and in the crawl space under the house, rusting since I moved in here in 1983. I bought the house (was renting with others before) in 2000. I'm very low income right now and have qualified for a few assistance programs but when contacted in the past I didn't qualify for help putting in a heating system because mine wasn't connected and functioning. I explained this to the woman but she seemed to think it didn't matter. She makes an appointment for a guy to come over and check out the house. The appointment was yesterday and the guy was nice as hell, worked up a plan in a matter of 1/2 hour - 45 minutes and I asked him if I could have a few days to make up my mind. He'd said there was a time limit and a limit on the number of rebates that would be issued, so he'd made it sound like I better act fast (yes, a common tactic and I don't know how for real this was). I asked him if he could call me Tuesday afternoon or Wednesday (today's Sunday). The old heating system sent up heat through a grate in the floor, AFAIK being only a single one in the center of the downstairs in the living room. This guy asked me if there was any ducting or way to send ducts up to the 2nd floor. If not, he said I'd either have to have just one heater (heat gets to the 2nd floor by rising up the staircases, there being one in front and one in back) or have 2 heaters, one in the crawl space and the other in the attic. Without bothering to go up into the attic or have a close look to see if ducting is possible from the crawl space to the 2nd floor, he decides it's not feasible (he may be right in that, but I'm not at all sure), he tells me if I want other than heat rising up the stairwells I need that 2nd heater in the attic. He makes a cell call to a guy in the office and asks about that and says they can get me an even greater rebate on a 2nd heater. If I have just one heater it will cost me around $7500, with 2 it will be $13,290 after 2 rebates from my utility company, PGE (evidently about $150 each), a "voucher amount" of $4000, federal tax credit of $400. He says they will provide 6 supply registers, 2 independent digital thermostats (one upstairs and one downstairs). They will remove the old rusted heater in the crawl space. They will have to widen one opening to the crawl space to get equipment (i.e. the heater itself) into the space and remove the old heater. Most of the accesses are surrounded by brick, but I think there's one they can hack into with saws. Presumably they'll repair. They say they'll install ducting (2"). What it actually says on the form he gave me is "Add new (if required) PVC 2" flue system up to 10ft." The heating system is rated at 95.5% AFUE (efficiency). The form says "Seal ducting system to current Title 24 standards as required by law." He said this included pressure testing. He tells me they have a program where I can go 1 year without interest if I start paying $450/month. Does this seem like a good/great smart deal? Or should I shop around? The company is California Energy Services, and their site is californiaenergyservices.com. This morning it occurred to me that I maybe should ask if it's possible to close off some of the supply lines (registers, I think they're called?). I live alone here and in a cold snap in the winter I might want to just heat part of the house or even one room if possible. If I keep the whole house warm or even half, it would use more gas than necessary. Is that a reasonable idea? Email: dmusicant at pacbell dot net Run a mile. That is an outrageous price, and the sales approach is an insult to your intelligence. He will probably come back with another rebate when you tell him you're not interested, but don't even think about it. Do it properly and get three quotes from reputable local contractors. Use servicemagic.com if you don't know anyone. Explain to your contractors about your need for flexibility to heat different zones (which I imagine should be easy). |
#10
Posted to alt.home.repair,misc.consumers.frugal-living,misc.consumers.house
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New (house) heating system... is this a good/great deal?
On Sun, 03 Jul 2011 08:51:20 -0700, Dan Musicant wrote:
I get an unsolicited call around a month ago and it's a woman who says they are with a program that might install a heater in my house (Berkeley, CA). She didn't say that exactly, but that's where the conversation went because that's what I need. The heater in my almost 2000 square foot two story 101 year old house was a floor heater that's been disconnected and in the crawl space under the house, rusting since I moved in here in 1983. I bought the house (was renting with others before) in 2000. I'm very low income right now and have qualified for a few assistance programs but when contacted in the past I didn't qualify for help putting in a heating system because mine wasn't connected and functioning. I explained this to the woman but she seemed to think it didn't matter. She makes an appointment for a guy to come over and check out the house. The appointment was yesterday and the guy was nice as hell, worked up a plan in a matter of 1/2 hour - 45 minutes and I asked him if I could have a few days to make up my mind. He'd said there was a time limit and a limit on the number of rebates that would be issued, so he'd made it sound like I better act fast (yes, a common tactic and I don't know how for real this was). I asked him if he could call me Tuesday afternoon or Wednesday (today's Sunday). The old heating system sent up heat through a grate in the floor, AFAIK being only a single one in the center of the downstairs in the living room. This guy asked me if there was any ducting or way to send ducts up to the 2nd floor. If not, he said I'd either have to have just one heater (heat gets to the 2nd floor by rising up the staircases, there being one in front and one in back) or have 2 heaters, one in the crawl space and the other in the attic. Without bothering to go up into the attic or have a close look to see if ducting is possible from the crawl space to the 2nd floor, he decides it's not feasible (he may be right in that, but I'm not at all sure), he tells me if I want other than heat rising up the stairwells I need that 2nd heater in the attic. He makes a cell call to a guy in the office and asks about that and says they can get me an even greater rebate on a 2nd heater. If I have just one heater it will cost me around $7500, with 2 it will be $13,290 after 2 rebates from my utility company, PGE (evidently about $150 each), a "voucher amount" of $4000, federal tax credit of $400. He says they will provide 6 supply registers, 2 independent digital thermostats (one upstairs and one downstairs). They will remove the old rusted heater in the crawl space. They will have to widen one opening to the crawl space to get equipment (i.e. the heater itself) into the space and remove the old heater. Most of the accesses are surrounded by brick, but I think there's one they can hack into with saws. Presumably they'll repair. They say they'll install ducting (2"). What it actually says on the form he gave me is "Add new (if required) PVC 2" flue system up to 10ft." The heating system is rated at 95.5% AFUE (efficiency). The form says "Seal ducting system to current Title 24 standards as required by law." He said this included pressure testing. He tells me they have a program where I can go 1 year without interest if I start paying $450/month. Does this seem like a good/great smart deal? Or should I shop around? The company is California Energy Services, and their site is californiaenergyservices.com. This morning it occurred to me that I maybe should ask if it's possible to close off some of the supply lines (registers, I think they're called?). I live alone here and in a cold snap in the winter I might want to just heat part of the house or even one room if possible. If I keep the whole house warm or even half, it would use more gas than necessary. Is that a reasonable idea? As others have indicated, it's a scam. Anyone cold-calling you, for such purchases, is a scammer. You've already shown interest, so expect to be hounded for months. |
#11
Posted to alt.home.repair,misc.consumers.frugal-living,misc.consumers.house
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New (house) heating system... is this a good/great deal?
In article ,
Dan Musicant wrote: I get an unsolicited call around a month ago and it's a woman who says they are with a program that might install a heater in my house (Berkeley, CA). [ ... ] Unsolicited calls concerning home improvement/repair are generally scams. [ ... ] call to a guy in the office and asks about that and says they can get me an even greater rebate on a 2nd heater. If I have just one heater it will cost me around $7500, with 2 it will be $13,290 after 2 rebates from my utility company, PGE (evidently about $150 each), a "voucher amount" of $4000, federal tax credit of $400. [ ... ] Have you called PG&E and ask them about these vouchers and rebates? Or checked on their web site to see if they have any such program listed? [ ... ] there's one they can hack into with saws. Presumably they'll repair. They say they'll install ducting (2"). What it actually says on the form he gave me is "Add new (if required) PVC 2" flue system up to 10ft." The heating system is rated at 95.5% AFUE (efficiency). The form says "Seal ducting system to current Title 24 standards as required by law." He said this included pressure testing. Red flag; inconsistent comments. 2" ducting would be tiny. He tells me they have a program where I can go 1 year without interest if I start paying $450/month. What's the interest rate, and is that actually no interest for a year, or you just don't pay the interest for a year and it accumulates on the balance of the loan? Does this seem like a good/great smart deal? Or should I shop around? The company is California Energy Services, and their site is californiaenergyservices.com. This morning it occurred to me that I maybe should ask if it's possible to close off some of the supply lines (registers, I think they're called?). I live alone here and in a cold snap in the winter I might want to just heat part of the house or even one room if possible. If I keep the whole house warm or even half, it would use more gas than necessary. Is that a reasonable idea? Closing off ducts in a common practice, but there are limits to how many can be closed at once. I think you'd be better off with an electric space heater; it'll heat one room fine (assuming your wiring is OK) and should cost less than $20 to purchase. A spare blanket is also an inexpensive item to deal with cold snaps. Gary |
#12
Posted to alt.home.repair,misc.consumers.frugal-living,misc.consumers.house
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New (house) heating system... is this a good/great deal?
On Jul 3, 12:25*pm, RonB wrote:
On Jul 3, 10:51*am, Dan Musicant wrote: I get an unsolicited call around a month ago and it's a woman who says they are with a program that might install a heater in my house (Berkeley, CA). She didn't say that exactly, but that's where the conversation went because that's what I need. The heater in my almost 2000 square foot two story 101 year old house was a floor heater that's been disconnected and in the crawl space under the house, rusting since I moved in here in 1983. I bought the house (was renting with others before) in 2000. I'm very low income right now and have qualified for a few assistance programs but when contacted in the past I didn't qualify for help putting in a heating system because mine wasn't connected and functioning. I explained this to the woman but she seemed to think it didn't matter. She makes an appointment for a guy to come over and check out the house. The appointment was yesterday and the guy was nice as hell, worked up a plan in a matter of 1/2 hour - 45 minutes and I asked him if I could have a few days to make up my mind. He'd said there was a time limit and a limit on the number of rebates that would be issued, so he'd made it sound like I better act fast (yes, a common tactic and I don't know how for real this was). I asked him if he could call me Tuesday afternoon or Wednesday (today's Sunday). The old heating system sent up heat through a grate in the floor, AFAIK being only a single one in the center of the downstairs in the living room. This guy asked me if there was any ducting or way to send ducts up to the 2nd floor. If not, he said I'd either have to have just one heater (heat gets to the 2nd floor by rising up the staircases, there being one in front and one in back) or have 2 heaters, one in the crawl space and the other in the attic. Without bothering to go up into the attic or have a close look to see if ducting is possible from the crawl space to the 2nd floor, he decides it's not feasible (he may be right in that, but I'm not at all sure), he tells me if I want other than heat rising up the stairwells I need that 2nd heater in the attic. He makes a cell call to a guy in the office and asks about that and says they can get me an even greater rebate on a 2nd heater. If I have just one heater it will cost me around $7500, with 2 it will be $13,290 after 2 rebates from my utility company, PGE (evidently about $150 each), a "voucher amount" of $4000, federal tax credit of $400. He says they will provide 6 supply registers, 2 independent digital thermostats (one upstairs and one downstairs). They will remove the old rusted heater in the crawl space. They will have to widen one opening to the crawl space to get equipment (i.e. the heater itself) into the space and remove the old heater. Most of the accesses are surrounded by brick, but I think there's one they can hack into with saws. Presumably they'll repair. They say they'll install ducting (2"). What it actually says on the form he gave me is "Add new (if required) PVC 2" flue system up to 10ft." The heating system is rated at 95.5% AFUE (efficiency). The form says "Seal ducting system to current Title 24 standards as required by law." He said this included pressure testing. He tells me they have a program where I can go 1 year without interest if I start paying $450/month. Does this seem like a good/great smart deal? Or should I shop around? The company is California Energy Services, and their site is californiaenergyservices.com. This morning it occurred to me that I maybe should ask if it's possible to close off some of the supply lines (registers, I think they're called?). I live alone here and in a cold snap in the winter I might want to just heat part of the house or even one room if possible. If I keep the whole house warm or even half, it would use more gas than necessary. Is that a reasonable idea? Email: dmusicant at pacbell dot net That kind of approach is almost guaranteed to be a scam. *Best approach is to call one or more local contractors that handle recognizable products and get quotes. RonB Let me provide some perspective. We built a new home 2-1/2 years ago. We installed a Lennox 94% efficiency furnace and Lennox Seer 16 A/C. Cost, which included installation of all ductwork, dryer duct AND parts and labor to install 15' of triple wall fireplace flue was $10,150. Find a contractor. |
#13
Posted to alt.home.repair,misc.consumers.frugal-living,misc.consumers.house
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New (house) heating system... is this a good/great deal?
Dan Musicant wrote:
I get an unsolicited call around a month ago You don't need to say any more. Look at whatever they told you with a giant dose of skepticism. There is a very tiny chance that they are all legit and a great deal. But you won't know that until you call some local folks, get some references, and check their work. -snip- Does this seem like a good/great smart deal? Or should I shop around? The company is California Energy Services, and their site is californiaenergyservices.com. Go to your favorite search engine and enter this string exactly as I show it on the next line; "California Energy Services" scam That should give you some interesting reading to sort through. Jim |
#14
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New (house) heating system... is this a good/great deal?
In article ,
Dan Musicant wrote: He tells me they have a program where I can go 1 year without interest if I start paying $450/month. For $450/month you can use electric spaces heaters much more cheaply And while it has the earmarks of a scam, what kind of prices did you get from the contractors you called? |
#15
Posted to alt.home.repair,misc.consumers.frugal-living,misc.consumers.house
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New (house) heating system... is this a good/great deal?
"Dan Musicant" wrote in message ... I get an unsolicited call around a month ago and it's a woman who says they are with a program that might install a heater in my house (Berkeley, CA). She didn't say that exactly, but that's where the conversation went because that's what I need. The heater in my almost 2000 square foot two story 101 year old house was a floor heater that's been disconnected and in the crawl space under the house, rusting since I moved in here in 1983. I bought the house (was renting with others before) in 2000. I'm very low income right now and have qualified for a few assistance programs but when contacted in the past I didn't qualify for help putting in a heating system because mine wasn't connected and functioning. I explained this to the woman but she seemed to think it didn't matter. She makes an appointment for a guy to come over and check out the house. The appointment was yesterday and the guy was nice as hell, worked up a plan in a matter of 1/2 hour - 45 minutes and I asked him if I could have a few days to make up my mind. He'd said there was a time limit and a limit on the number of rebates that would be issued, so he'd made it sound like I better act fast (yes, a common tactic and I don't know how for real this was). I asked him if he could call me Tuesday afternoon or Wednesday (today's Sunday). The old heating system sent up heat through a grate in the floor, AFAIK being only a single one in the center of the downstairs in the living room. This guy asked me if there was any ducting or way to send ducts up to the 2nd floor. If not, he said I'd either have to have just one heater (heat gets to the 2nd floor by rising up the staircases, there being one in front and one in back) or have 2 heaters, one in the crawl space and the other in the attic. Without bothering to go up into the attic or have a close look to see if ducting is possible from the crawl space to the 2nd floor, he decides it's not feasible (he may be right in that, but I'm not at all sure), he tells me if I want other than heat rising up the stairwells I need that 2nd heater in the attic. He makes a cell call to a guy in the office and asks about that and says they can get me an even greater rebate on a 2nd heater. If I have just one heater it will cost me around $7500, with 2 it will be $13,290 after 2 rebates from my utility company, PGE (evidently about $150 each), a "voucher amount" of $4000, federal tax credit of $400. He says they will provide 6 supply registers, 2 independent digital thermostats (one upstairs and one downstairs). They will remove the old rusted heater in the crawl space. They will have to widen one opening to the crawl space to get equipment (i.e. the heater itself) into the space and remove the old heater. Most of the accesses are surrounded by brick, but I think there's one they can hack into with saws. Presumably they'll repair. They say they'll install ducting (2"). What it actually says on the form he gave me is "Add new (if required) PVC 2" flue system up to 10ft." The heating system is rated at 95.5% AFUE (efficiency). The form says "Seal ducting system to current Title 24 standards as required by law." He said this included pressure testing. He tells me they have a program where I can go 1 year without interest if I start paying $450/month. Does this seem like a good/great smart deal? Or should I shop around? The company is California Energy Services, and their site is californiaenergyservices.com. This morning it occurred to me that I maybe should ask if it's possible to close off some of the supply lines (registers, I think they're called?). I live alone here and in a cold snap in the winter I might want to just heat part of the house or even one room if possible. If I keep the whole house warm or even half, it would use more gas than necessary. Is that a reasonable idea? Email: dmusicant at pacbell dot net Sounds like a San Francisco deal to me. I do hope they lube you well. |
#16
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New (house) heating system... is this a good/great deal?
Sounds like all the earmarks of a scam. Since you aren't
interested or motivated enough to make your own calls before now, there must not be much of a need. I'd walk, run, limp, or hobble away from these scammers. -- Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org .. "Colbyt" wrote in message ... "Dan Musicant" wrote in message ... I get an unsolicited call around a month ago and it's a woman who says they are with a program that might install a heater in my house (Berkeley, CA). She didn't say that exactly, but that's where the Does this seem like a good/great smart deal? Or should I shop around? The company is California Energy Services, and their site is www.californiaenergyservices.com. Email: dmusicant at pacbell dot net Sounds like a San Francisco deal to me. I do hope they lube you well. |
#17
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New (house) heating system... is this a good/great deal?
On Jul 3, 10:51*am, Dan Musicant wrote:
I get an unsolicited call around a month ago and it's a woman who says they are with a program that might install a heater in my house (Berkeley, CA). She didn't say that exactly, but that's where the conversation went because that's what I need. The heater in my almost 2000 square foot two story 101 year old house was a floor heater that's been disconnected and in the crawl space under the house, rusting since I moved in here in 1983. I bought the house (was renting with others before) in 2000. I'm very low income right now and have qualified for a few assistance programs but when contacted in the past I didn't qualify for help putting in a heating system because mine wasn't connected and functioning. I explained this to the woman but she seemed to think it didn't matter. She makes an appointment for a guy to come over and check out the house. The appointment was yesterday and the guy was nice as hell, worked up a plan in a matter of 1/2 hour - 45 minutes and I asked him if I could have a few days to make up my mind. He'd said there was a time limit and a limit on the number of rebates that would be issued, so he'd made it sound like I better act fast (yes, a common tactic and I don't know how for real this was). I asked him if he could call me Tuesday afternoon or Wednesday (today's Sunday). The old heating system sent up heat through a grate in the floor, AFAIK being only a single one in the center of the downstairs in the living room. This guy asked me if there was any ducting or way to send ducts up to the 2nd floor. If not, he said I'd either have to have just one heater (heat gets to the 2nd floor by rising up the staircases, there being one in front and one in back) or have 2 heaters, one in the crawl space and the other in the attic. Without bothering to go up into the attic or have a close look to see if ducting is possible from the crawl space to the 2nd floor, he decides it's not feasible (he may be right in that, but I'm not at all sure), he tells me if I want other than heat rising up the stairwells I need that 2nd heater in the attic. He makes a cell call to a guy in the office and asks about that and says they can get me an even greater rebate on a 2nd heater. If I have just one heater it will cost me around $7500, with 2 it will be $13,290 after 2 rebates from my utility company, PGE (evidently about $150 each), a "voucher amount" of $4000, federal tax credit of $400. He says they will provide 6 supply registers, 2 independent digital thermostats (one upstairs and one downstairs). They will remove the old rusted heater in the crawl space. They will have to widen one opening to the crawl space to get equipment (i.e. the heater itself) into the space and remove the old heater. Most of the accesses are surrounded by brick, but I think there's one they can hack into with saws. Presumably they'll repair. They say they'll install ducting (2"). What it actually says on the form he gave me is "Add new (if required) PVC 2" flue system up to 10ft." The heating system is rated at 95.5% AFUE (efficiency). The form says "Seal ducting system to current Title 24 standards as required by law." He said this included pressure testing. He tells me they have a program where I can go 1 year without interest if I start paying $450/month. Does this seem like a good/great smart deal? Or should I shop around? The company is California Energy Services, and their site is californiaenergyservices.com. This morning it occurred to me that I maybe should ask if it's possible to close off some of the supply lines (registers, I think they're called?). I live alone here and in a cold snap in the winter I might want to just heat part of the house or even one room if possible. If I keep the whole house warm or even half, it would use more gas than necessary. Is that a reasonable idea? Email: dmusicant at pacbell dot net Call the local attorney generals office and also the Better Business bureau and find out if the company has any complaonts. ALso google the name of the company and see if there are complaints on the internet. |
#18
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New (house) heating system... is this a good/great deal?
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#19
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New (house) heating system... is this a good/great deal?
Dan Musicant wrote:
there's one they can hack into with saws. Presumably they'll repair. They say they'll install ducting (2"). What it actually says on the form he gave me is "Add new (if required) PVC 2" flue system up to 10ft." The heating system is rated at 95.5% AFUE (efficiency). The form says "Seal ducting system to current Title 24 standards as required by law." He said this included pressure testing. Red flag; inconsistent comments. 2" ducting would be tiny. Check. I was wondering that (the 2"). What's inconsistent there? The 2" flue is probably 2" PVC pipe for the combustion air and exhaust to/from the furnace. That's what they use for high efficiency furnaces. |
#20
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New (house) heating system... is this a good/great deal?
On Sun, 03 Jul 2011 14:42:20 -0700, "Malcom \"Mal\" Reynolds"
wrote: :In article , : Dan Musicant wrote: : : He tells me they have a program where I can go 1 year without interest : if I start paying $450/month. : :For $450/month you can use electric spaces heaters much more cheaply : :And while it has the earmarks of a scam, what kind of prices did you get from :the contractors you called? I haven't called any contractor's... YET! There's no way I'm going for this at this point without serious evidence that it beats what other people can do. Email: dmusicant at pacbell dot net |
#21
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New (house) heating system... is this a good/great deal?
That's at least double what I paid for a new furnace/central air combination
2-3 years ago in my 2700 square foot house. Before you sign anything, check this outfit out with your county/state consumer affairs department. Also shop around, that price sounds steep. "Dan Musicant" wrote in message ... I get an unsolicited call around a month ago and it's a woman who says they are with a program that might install a heater in my house (Berkeley, CA). She didn't say that exactly, but that's where the conversation went because that's what I need. The heater in my almost 2000 square foot two story 101 year old house was a floor heater that's been disconnected and in the crawl space under the house, rusting since I moved in here in 1983. I bought the house (was renting with others before) in 2000. I'm very low income right now and have qualified for a few assistance programs but when contacted in the past I didn't qualify for help putting in a heating system because mine wasn't connected and functioning. I explained this to the woman but she seemed to think it didn't matter. She makes an appointment for a guy to come over and check out the house. The appointment was yesterday and the guy was nice as hell, worked up a plan in a matter of 1/2 hour - 45 minutes and I asked him if I could have a few days to make up my mind. He'd said there was a time limit and a limit on the number of rebates that would be issued, so he'd made it sound like I better act fast (yes, a common tactic and I don't know how for real this was). I asked him if he could call me Tuesday afternoon or Wednesday (today's Sunday). The old heating system sent up heat through a grate in the floor, AFAIK being only a single one in the center of the downstairs in the living room. This guy asked me if there was any ducting or way to send ducts up to the 2nd floor. If not, he said I'd either have to have just one heater (heat gets to the 2nd floor by rising up the staircases, there being one in front and one in back) or have 2 heaters, one in the crawl space and the other in the attic. Without bothering to go up into the attic or have a close look to see if ducting is possible from the crawl space to the 2nd floor, he decides it's not feasible (he may be right in that, but I'm not at all sure), he tells me if I want other than heat rising up the stairwells I need that 2nd heater in the attic. He makes a cell call to a guy in the office and asks about that and says they can get me an even greater rebate on a 2nd heater. If I have just one heater it will cost me around $7500, with 2 it will be $13,290 after 2 rebates from my utility company, PGE (evidently about $150 each), a "voucher amount" of $4000, federal tax credit of $400. He says they will provide 6 supply registers, 2 independent digital thermostats (one upstairs and one downstairs). They will remove the old rusted heater in the crawl space. They will have to widen one opening to the crawl space to get equipment (i.e. the heater itself) into the space and remove the old heater. Most of the accesses are surrounded by brick, but I think there's one they can hack into with saws. Presumably they'll repair. They say they'll install ducting (2"). What it actually says on the form he gave me is "Add new (if required) PVC 2" flue system up to 10ft." The heating system is rated at 95.5% AFUE (efficiency). The form says "Seal ducting system to current Title 24 standards as required by law." He said this included pressure testing. He tells me they have a program where I can go 1 year without interest if I start paying $450/month. Does this seem like a good/great smart deal? Or should I shop around? The company is California Energy Services, and their site is californiaenergyservices.com. This morning it occurred to me that I maybe should ask if it's possible to close off some of the supply lines (registers, I think they're called?). I live alone here and in a cold snap in the winter I might want to just heat part of the house or even one room if possible. If I keep the whole house warm or even half, it would use more gas than necessary. Is that a reasonable idea? Email: dmusicant at pacbell dot net |
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New (house) heating system... is this a good/great deal?
On Jul 3, 1:50*pm, (Gary Heston) wrote:
In article , Dan Musicant wrote: I get an unsolicited call around a month ago and it's a woman who says they are with a program that might install a heater in my house (Berkeley, CA). * [ ... ] Unsolicited calls concerning home improvement/repair are generally scams. * [ ... ] call to a guy in the office and asks about that and says they can get me an even greater rebate on a 2nd heater. If I have just one heater it will cost me around $7500, with 2 it will be $13,290 after 2 rebates from my utility company, PGE (evidently about $150 each), a "voucher amount" of $4000, federal tax credit of $400. * [ ... ] Have you called PG&E and ask them about these vouchers and rebates? Or checked on their web site to see if they have any such program listed? * [ ... ] there's one they can hack into with saws. Presumably they'll repair. They say they'll install ducting (2"). What it actually says on the form he gave me is "Add new (if required) PVC 2" flue system up to 10ft." The heating system is rated at 95.5% AFUE (efficiency). The form says "Seal ducting system to current Title 24 standards as required by law." He said this included pressure testing. Red flag; inconsistent comments. 2" ducting would be tiny. He tells me they have a program where I can go 1 year without interest if I start paying $450/month. What's the interest rate, and is that actually no interest for a year, or you just don't pay the interest for a year and it accumulates on the balance of the loan? Does this seem like a good/great smart deal? Or should I shop around? The company is California Energy Services, and their site is californiaenergyservices.com. This morning it occurred to me that I maybe should ask if it's possible to close off some of the supply lines (registers, I think they're called?). I live alone here and in a cold snap in the winter I might want to just heat part of the house or even one room if possible. If I keep the whole house warm or even half, it would use more gas than necessary. Is that a reasonable idea? Closing off ducts in a common practice, but there are limits to how many can be closed at once. I think you'd be better off with an electric space heater; it'll heat one room fine (assuming your wiring is OK) and should cost less than $20 to purchase. A spare blanket is also an inexpensive item to deal with cold snaps. Gary @Gary: Clearly you are not informed about all the types and flavors of HVAC equipment out there... 2" duct work is quite common in retrofit applications and uses a higher pressure fan system to move the air... The 2" duct hose can be fished through walls without breaking into them in most situations... The smaller sized duct hoses are used with the systems that have the small round outlets in the ceiling where you would need one outlet per set amount of square footage in each room depending on your building's heat loss/gain conditions... ~~ Evan |
#23
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New (house) heating system... is this a good/great deal?
On Sun, 03 Jul 2011 08:51:20 -0700, Dan Musicant
wrote: I get an unsolicited call around a month ago and it's a woman who says they are with a program that might install a heater in my house (Berkeley, CA). She didn't say that exactly, but that's where the conversation went because that's what I need. The heater in my almost 2000 square foot two story 101 year old house was a floor heater that's been disconnected and in the crawl space under the house, rusting since I moved in here in 1983. I bought the house (was renting with others before) in 2000. I'm very low income right now and have qualified for a few assistance programs but when contacted in the past I didn't qualify for help putting in a heating system because mine wasn't connected and functioning. I explained this to the woman but she seemed to think it didn't matter. She makes an appointment for a guy to come over and check out the house. The appointment was yesterday and the guy was nice as hell, worked up a plan in a matter of 1/2 hour - 45 minutes and I asked him if I could have a few days to make up my mind. He'd said there was a time limit and a limit on the number of rebates that would be issued, so he'd made it sound like I better act fast (yes, a common tactic and I don't know how for real this was). I asked him if he could call me Tuesday afternoon or Wednesday (today's Sunday). Zone heating is done often in the SFBA, but you're on a tight budget and the amount they want to charge is steep. Call Atlas for a comparison estimate. They are an old, reliable company around here. http://www.atlasheating.com/ Do what others have advised and check out the installation company thoroughly. Do your homework; it's a lot of money to be spending. http://www.trane.com/Residential/Tra...Credit-Summary " As a part of the recently passed tax bill, Congress modified and extended its energy efficiency tax credits for appliances, new homes and retrofits to existing homes, which includes the 25C heating and cooling equipment tax incentive for another year. The new bill extends eligibility to the end of 2011, but reduces the incentive to a $500** maximum tax credit. " Read more about what qualifies for the rebate here - http://www.trane.com/Residential/Tra...-Stimulus-2011 -- Today's mighty oak is just yesterday's nut that held its ground. |
#24
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New (house) heating system... is this a good/great deal?
"Dan Musicant" wrote in message ... I get an unsolicited call around a month ago and it's a woman who says they are with a program that might install a heater in my house (Berkeley, CA). Take a pass. There is always another deal around the corner, and anyone who says you need to sign right now should cause you concern. You should get quotes from at least two other contractors, and you should ask for the numbers of several customers you can talk to about their experiences with this company. From what you posted here this company smells fishy to me, at the very least they're trying to over-charge you. |
#25
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New (house) heating system... is this a good/great deal?
Dan Musicant wrote:
:He tells me they have a program where I can go 1 year without interest :if I start paying $450/month. : :What's the interest rate, and is that actually no interest for a year, r you just don't pay the interest for a year and it accumulates on the :balance of the loan? Don't know. Absolutely don't know. BEWARE! Some of these "deals" require you to pay ALL interest on the loan if you do not pay it off in full before the end of the [one year] initial term! Find out the interest rate AND the terms! Further, ANY "deal" like that implies that a discount is available for cash, since the company has to "buy" the loan. I got a 13% cash discount on my last furnace; you should be able to find a home improvement loan for less than that if you have reasonable credit... :They say they'll install ducting (2"). What it actually says on the form :he gave me is "Add new (if required) PVC 2" flue system up to 10ft." The :heating system is rated at 95.5% AFUE (efficiency). The form says "Seal :ducting system to current Title 24 standards as required by law." He :said this included pressure testing. : :Red flag; inconsistent comments. 2" ducting would be tiny. Check. I was wondering that (the 2"). What's inconsistent there? There's a lot that wasn't talked about, though. Lots of reasons to ask questions. I want to know with any job what the total cost is going to be before I sign. Also, who's paying for permits. With the new high-efficiency furnaces, 2" PVC piping is used for combustion air intake and exhaust. There is no more large galvanized flue through the roof. |
#26
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New (house) heating system... is this a good/great deal?
Evan wrote:
Clearly you are not informed about all the types and flavors of HVAC equipment out there... 2" duct work is quite common in retrofit applications and uses a higher pressure fan system to move the air... The 2" duct hose can be fished through walls without breaking into them in most situations... The smaller sized duct hoses are used with the systems that have the small round outlets in the ceiling where you would need one outlet per set amount of square footage in each room depending on your building's heat loss/gain conditions... I would guess that the higher velocity air from a 2" duct would be quite noisy. How is the noise controlled? |
#27
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New (house) heating system... is this a good/great deal?
On Jul 3, 11:51*am, Dan Musicant wrote:
I get an unsolicited call around a month ago and it's a woman who says they are with a program that might install a heater in my house (Berkeley, CA). She didn't say that exactly, but that's where the conversation went because that's what I need. The heater in my almost 2000 square foot two story 101 year old house was a floor heater that's been disconnected and in the crawl space under the house, rusting since I moved in here in 1983. I bought the house (was renting with others before) in 2000. I'm very low income right now and have qualified for a few assistance programs but when contacted in the past I didn't qualify for help putting in a heating system because mine wasn't connected and functioning. I explained this to the woman but she seemed to think it didn't matter. She makes an appointment for a guy to come over and check out the house. The appointment was yesterday and the guy was nice as hell, worked up a plan in a matter of 1/2 hour - 45 minutes and I asked him if I could have a few days to make up my mind. He'd said there was a time limit and a limit on the number of rebates that would be issued, so he'd made it sound like I better act fast (yes, a common tactic and I don't know how for real this was). I asked him if he could call me Tuesday afternoon or Wednesday (today's Sunday). The old heating system sent up heat through a grate in the floor, AFAIK being only a single one in the center of the downstairs in the living room. This guy asked me if there was any ducting or way to send ducts up to the 2nd floor. If not, he said I'd either have to have just one heater (heat gets to the 2nd floor by rising up the staircases, there being one in front and one in back) or have 2 heaters, one in the crawl space and the other in the attic. Without bothering to go up into the attic or have a close look to see if ducting is possible from the crawl space to the 2nd floor, he decides it's not feasible (he may be right in that, but I'm not at all sure), he tells me if I want other than heat rising up the stairwells I need that 2nd heater in the attic. He makes a cell call to a guy in the office and asks about that and says they can get me an even greater rebate on a 2nd heater. If I have just one heater it will cost me around $7500, with 2 it will be $13,290 after 2 rebates from my utility company, PGE (evidently about $150 each), a "voucher amount" of $4000, federal tax credit of $400. He says they will provide 6 supply registers, 2 independent digital thermostats (one upstairs and one downstairs). They will remove the old rusted heater in the crawl space. They will have to widen one opening to the crawl space to get equipment (i.e. the heater itself) into the space and remove the old heater. Most of the accesses are surrounded by brick, but I think there's one they can hack into with saws. Presumably they'll repair. They say they'll install ducting (2"). What it actually says on the form he gave me is "Add new (if required) PVC 2" flue system up to 10ft." The heating system is rated at 95.5% AFUE (efficiency). The form says "Seal ducting system to current Title 24 standards as required by law." He said this included pressure testing. He tells me they have a program where I can go 1 year without interest if I start paying $450/month. Does this seem like a good/great smart deal? Or should I shop around? The company is California Energy Services, and their site is californiaenergyservices.com. This morning it occurred to me that I maybe should ask if it's possible to close off some of the supply lines (registers, I think they're called?). I live alone here and in a cold snap in the winter I might want to just heat part of the house or even one room if possible. If I keep the whole house warm or even half, it would use more gas than necessary. Is that a reasonable idea? Email: dmusicant at pacbell dot net What I would look at, were I in your position, is something I'm looking at. My smallish house was built in the 70s, when electricity was cheap, and there was a drive to use electricity to heat houses. So my 3 bedroom 2 story house (plus basement) has no furnace or ductwork. We could install a traditional gas furnace but we would lose scarce living space and installing the ducts from the basement to the top floor would be complex and expensive. What I've looked into is "mini split" heat pumps. Some are cooling only, but many can both cool and heat the house. The split is that part of the unit is outside the house, and part is inside. You can have units where you have 2 or more "head" units inside to cover multiple floors. So it is electrical heating, but the heat pump is supposed to be much more efficient than space heaters. The claims are up to 66% more efficient. The units start pretty inexpensively, around the $2000 mark for name brands. The install would be mounting the outside unit on a shelf, and drilling holes in the brick for the pipes leading to the head units. I haven't priced install yet, but I think for two head units, I'm probably around the $5-6,000 mark. Now apparently they loose some efficiency in severe cold (-10F) so you might to still have space heating on the coldest days. Where you are, you probably don't need space heating if you have the heat pump. |
#28
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New (house) heating system... is this a good/great deal?
On Mon, 4 Jul 2011 13:03:43 -0700 (PDT), James wrote:
On Jul 3, 11:51*am, Dan Musicant wrote: I get an unsolicited call around a month ago and it's a woman who says they are with a program that might install a heater in my house (Berkeley, CA). She didn't say that exactly, but that's where the conversation went because that's what I need. The heater in my almost 2000 square foot two story 101 year old house was a floor heater that's been disconnected and in the crawl space under the house, rusting since I moved in here in 1983. I bought the house (was renting with others before) in 2000. I'm very low income right now and have qualified for a few assistance programs but when contacted in the past I didn't qualify for help putting in a heating system because mine wasn't connected and functioning. I explained this to the woman but she seemed to think it didn't matter. She makes an appointment for a guy to come over and check out the house. The appointment was yesterday and the guy was nice as hell, worked up a plan in a matter of 1/2 hour - 45 minutes and I asked him if I could have a few days to make up my mind. He'd said there was a time limit and a limit on the number of rebates that would be issued, so he'd made it sound like I better act fast (yes, a common tactic and I don't know how for real this was). I asked him if he could call me Tuesday afternoon or Wednesday (today's Sunday). The old heating system sent up heat through a grate in the floor, AFAIK being only a single one in the center of the downstairs in the living room. This guy asked me if there was any ducting or way to send ducts up to the 2nd floor. If not, he said I'd either have to have just one heater (heat gets to the 2nd floor by rising up the staircases, there being one in front and one in back) or have 2 heaters, one in the crawl space and the other in the attic. Without bothering to go up into the attic or have a close look to see if ducting is possible from the crawl space to the 2nd floor, he decides it's not feasible (he may be right in that, but I'm not at all sure), he tells me if I want other than heat rising up the stairwells I need that 2nd heater in the attic. He makes a cell call to a guy in the office and asks about that and says they can get me an even greater rebate on a 2nd heater. If I have just one heater it will cost me around $7500, with 2 it will be $13,290 after 2 rebates from my utility company, PGE (evidently about $150 each), a "voucher amount" of $4000, federal tax credit of $400. He says they will provide 6 supply registers, 2 independent digital thermostats (one upstairs and one downstairs). They will remove the old rusted heater in the crawl space. They will have to widen one opening to the crawl space to get equipment (i.e. the heater itself) into the space and remove the old heater. Most of the accesses are surrounded by brick, but I think there's one they can hack into with saws. Presumably they'll repair. They say they'll install ducting (2"). What it actually says on the form he gave me is "Add new (if required) PVC 2" flue system up to 10ft." The heating system is rated at 95.5% AFUE (efficiency). The form says "Seal ducting system to current Title 24 standards as required by law." He said this included pressure testing. He tells me they have a program where I can go 1 year without interest if I start paying $450/month. Does this seem like a good/great smart deal? Or should I shop around? The company is California Energy Services, and their site is californiaenergyservices.com. This morning it occurred to me that I maybe should ask if it's possible to close off some of the supply lines (registers, I think they're called?). I live alone here and in a cold snap in the winter I might want to just heat part of the house or even one room if possible. If I keep the whole house warm or even half, it would use more gas than necessary. Is that a reasonable idea? Email: dmusicant at pacbell dot net What I would look at, were I in your position, is something I'm looking at. My smallish house was built in the 70s, when electricity was cheap, and there was a drive to use electricity to heat houses. So my 3 bedroom 2 story house (plus basement) has no furnace or ductwork. We could install a traditional gas furnace but we would lose scarce living space and installing the ducts from the basement to the top floor would be complex and expensive. What I've looked into is "mini split" heat pumps. Some are cooling only, but many can both cool and heat the house. The split is that part of the unit is outside the house, and part is inside. You can have units where you have 2 or more "head" units inside to cover multiple floors. So it is electrical heating, but the heat pump is supposed to be much more efficient than space heaters. The claims are up to 66% more efficient. The units start pretty inexpensively, around the $2000 mark for name brands. The install would be mounting the outside unit on a shelf, and drilling holes in the brick for the pipes leading to the head units. I haven't priced install yet, but I think for two head units, I'm probably around the $5-6,000 mark. Now apparently they loose some efficiency in severe cold (-10F) so you might to still have space heating on the coldest days. Where you are, you probably don't need space heating if you have the heat pump. They don't just lose "some efficiency" at those temperatures. They aren't useful at below 30F, or so. Heat pumps usually have resistance (auxiliary) heat and switch over at around freezing. Heat pumps aren't a good solution if you have temperatures that cold. Heat pumps work very well here (I have two heat pumps, a 2.5T and 3.5T unit) but it doesn't get colder than about 15F here and rarely doesn't make it into the 30s during the day. I'll likely put a mini-split unit in a room over the garage I'm converting into a workshop. I would connect it to the upstairs unit (the 2.5T unit) but don't want the air exchange. |
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New (house) heating system... is this a good/great deal?
On Jul 4, 1:13*pm, "John Weiss" wrote:
Evan wrote: Clearly you are not informed about all the types and flavors of HVAC equipment out there... *2" duct work is quite common in retrofit applications and uses a higher pressure fan system to move the air... The 2" duct hose can be fished through walls without breaking into them in most situations... *The smaller sized duct hoses are used with the systems that have the small round outlets in the ceiling where you would need one outlet per set amount of square footage in each room depending on your building's heat loss/gain conditions... I would guess that the higher velocity air from a 2" duct would be quite noisy. *How is the noise controlled? @John Weiss: The main trunk lines in such high pressure HVAC systems are constructed out of sound dampening materials rather than sheet metal... They are just as quiet as traditional systems and the insulated 2" flex duct hose from the trunk line to the room outlet are a lot easier to locate in a retrofit job than the typical sheet metal duct work outlet boots which require open access below the floor to install... ~~ Evan |
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New (house) heating system... is this a good/great deal?
On Sun, 3 Jul 2011 09:22:06 -0700, "Bob F" wrote:
an Musicant wrote: : If I have just one heater it will cost me around $7500, with 2 it : will be $13,290 after 2 rebates from my utility company, PGE : (evidently about $150 each), a "voucher amount" of $4000, federal tax : credit of $400. : :Sounds like an awful lot of money. Get an estimate from a contractor you call :and see how it compares before you even consider this. Plus, check with your :state contractors licensing agency about the contractor's reputation, and google :their name plus the word complaints,or scam, or crime. When you contact the :state, make sure you have their state contractor's license #. I did Google searches as suggested and found nothing negative. In fact the BBB indicates they are "accredited" and that there are zero complaints against them in the last 12 months. Doesn't mean their "bid" isn't high, but my sense that they are legit seems correct. Well, that they probably do good work. Still, I'm sure going to get other bids. Also, when this guy calls back I'm going to ask him to fill in the blanks, stuff like who pays to repair the holes they make in the walls to get stuff in and out, what are the exact terms of the financing, who pays for permits, zone heating... Dan Email: dmusicant at pacbell dot net |
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New (house) heating system... is this a good/great deal?
On Jul 4, 12:46*pm, "DGDevin" wrote:
"Dan Musicant" *wrote in message ... I get an unsolicited call around a month ago and it's a woman who says they are with a program that might install a heater in my house (Berkeley, CA). Take a pass. *There is always another deal around the corner, and anyone who says you need to sign right now should cause you concern. *You should get quotes from at least two other contractors, and you should ask for the numbers of several customers you can talk to about their experiences with this company. *From what you posted here this company smells fishy to me, at the very least they're trying to over-charge you. Nobody commented on this gem: " Without bothering to go up into the attic or have a close look to see if ducting is possible from the crawl space to the 2nd floor, he decides it's not feasible (he may be right in that, but I'm not at all sure), he tells me if I want other than heat rising up the stairwells I need that 2nd heater in the attic. " That alone is enough to cross this company off your list. A real, honest, professional company would have looked over the entire house BEFORE writing any proposal. To just start quoting installing a second furnace in an a attic without even looking at it is a sure sign of a shyster. To size the systems correctly they also need to know the true size of the house, what kind of insulation, window types and numbers, etc. |
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New (house) heating system... is this a good/great deal?
In my experience, the BBB doesn't mean squat. Someone can have a terrible
reputation, scads of dissatisfied customers, and still have a clean record with the BBB. Contact your state or county consumer affairs bureau. "Dan Musicant" wrote in message ... On Sun, 3 Jul 2011 09:22:06 -0700, "Bob F" wrote: an Musicant wrote: : If I have just one heater it will cost me around $7500, with 2 it : will be $13,290 after 2 rebates from my utility company, PGE : (evidently about $150 each), a "voucher amount" of $4000, federal tax : credit of $400. : :Sounds like an awful lot of money. Get an estimate from a contractor you call :and see how it compares before you even consider this. Plus, check with your :state contractors licensing agency about the contractor's reputation, and :their name plus the word complaints,or scam, or crime. When you contact the :state, make sure you have their state contractor's license #. I did Google searches as suggested and found nothing negative. In fact the BBB indicates they are "accredited" and that there are zero complaints against them in the last 12 months. Doesn't mean their "bid" isn't high, but my sense that they are legit seems correct. Well, that they probably do good work. Still, I'm sure going to get other bids. Also, when this guy calls back I'm going to ask him to fill in the blanks, stuff like who pays to repair the holes they make in the walls to get stuff in and out, what are the exact terms of the financing, who pays for permits, zone heating... Dan Email: dmusicant at pacbell dot net |
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New (house) heating system... is this a good/great deal?
On 07/05/11 16:32, Lou wrote:
In my experience, the BBB doesn't mean squat. Someone can have a terrible reputation, scads of dissatisfied customers, and still have a clean record with the BBB. Last time I checked, a couple of decades ago, BBB seemed to be a write-only organization. I never tried again. Contact your state or county consumer affairs bureau. -- Cheers, Bev xoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxox "Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." -- H.L. Mencken |
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New (house) heating system... is this a good/great deal?
"Lou" wrote in :
In my experience, the BBB doesn't mean squat. Someone can have a terrible reputation, scads of dissatisfied customers, and still have a clean record with the BBB. Contact your state or county consumer affairs bureau. "Dan Musicant" wrote in message ... On Sun, 3 Jul 2011 09:22:06 -0700, "Bob F" wrote: an Musicant wrote: : If I have just one heater it will cost me around $7500, with 2 it : will be $13,290 after 2 rebates from my utility company, PGE : (evidently about $150 each), a "voucher amount" of $4000, federal : tax credit of $400. : :Sounds like an awful lot of money. Get an estimate from a contractor :you call :and see how it compares before you even consider this. Plus, check :with your :state contractors licensing agency about the contractor's :reputation, and :their name plus the word complaints,or scam, or crime. When you :contact the :state, make sure you have their state contractor's license #. I did Google searches as suggested and found nothing negative. In fact the BBB indicates they are "accredited" and that there are zero complaints against them in the last 12 months. Doesn't mean their "bid" isn't high, but my sense that they are legit seems correct. Well, that they probably do good work. Still, I'm sure going to get other bids. Also, when this guy calls back I'm going to ask him to fill in the blanks, stuff like who pays to repair the holes they make in the walls to get stuff in and out, what are the exact terms of the financing, who pays for permits, zone heating... Dan Email: dmusicant at pacbell dot net "The Tricks Behind Infomercial Get-Rich Pitches" http://finance.yahoo.com/banking-bud...pitches-street "The BBB did initially accredit Dalbey's company in 2003, but revoked that seal of approval within a year." So, anyone who had faith on the BBB rating got screwed. |
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New (house) heating system... is this a good/great deal?
On Tue, 5 Jul 2011 16:26:35 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote: :On Jul 4, 12:46*pm, "DGDevin" wrote: : "Dan Musicant" *wrote in message : : ... : : I get an unsolicited call around a month ago and it's a woman who says : they are with a program that might install a heater in my house : (Berkeley, CA). : : Take a pass. *There is always another deal around the corner, and anyone who : says you need to sign right now should cause you concern. *You should get : quotes from at least two other contractors, and you should ask for the : numbers of several customers you can talk to about their experiences with : this company. *From what you posted here this company smells fishy to me, at : the very least they're trying to over-charge you. : :Nobody commented on this gem: : :" Without bothering to go up into the attic or :have a close look to see if ducting is possible from the crawl space :to :the 2nd floor, he decides it's not feasible (he may be right in that, :but I'm not at all sure), he tells me if I want other than heat :rising :up the stairwells I need that 2nd heater in the attic. " : :That alone is enough to cross this company off your list. A real, :honest, rofessional company would have looked over the entire house BEFORE :writing any proposal. To just start quoting installing a second :furnace in : an a attic without even looking at it is a sure sign of a shyster. :To size :the systems correctly they also need to know the true size of the :house, :what kind of insulation, window types and numbers, etc. On Tue, 5 Jul 2011 16:26:35 -0700 (PDT), in alt.home.repair you wrote: :On Jul 4, 12:46*pm, "DGDevin" wrote: : "Dan Musicant" *wrote in message : : ... : : I get an unsolicited call around a month ago and it's a woman who says : they are with a program that might install a heater in my house : (Berkeley, CA). : : Take a pass. *There is always another deal around the corner, and anyone who : says you need to sign right now should cause you concern. *You should get : quotes from at least two other contractors, and you should ask for the : numbers of several customers you can talk to about their experiences with : this company. *From what you posted here this company smells fishy to me, at : the very least they're trying to over-charge you. : :Nobody commented on this gem: : :" Without bothering to go up into the attic or :have a close look to see if ducting is possible from the crawl space :to :the 2nd floor, he decides it's not feasible (he may be right in that, :but I'm not at all sure), he tells me if I want other than heat :rising :up the stairwells I need that 2nd heater in the attic. " : :That alone is enough to cross this company off your list. A real, :honest, rofessional company would have looked over the entire house BEFORE :writing any proposal. To just start quoting installing a second :furnace in : an a attic without even looking at it is a sure sign of a shyster. :To size :the systems correctly they also need to know the true size of the :house, :what kind of insulation, window types and numbers, etc. Thank you very much for this post. More than any other it confirms my suspicions. I was looking at the whole thing through rose colored glasses. I might even install my own system (maybe with help). I had a long talk with a friend over the phone this afternoon. He's installed two heating systems himself, one in a home he bought, fixed up and sold and the other in a property he co-owns and rents. He told me to work up dimensions for my rooms. volumes for each room, a plan, visit Home Depot and look at their heating systems, possibly look online for used furnaces, etc. In any case, I think it would be smart to get several quotes from local contractors. My friend tells me that with the economy being what it is, I will likely get some pretty low quotes. Dan Email: dmusicant at pacbell dot net |
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New (house) heating system... is this a good/great deal? -- Follow up call from guy who inspected my house
I just got a call from the guy who came over my house on Saturday. I
told him I'm investigating my options. Then I asked a few questions: I tried to find out what exact relationship his company has with Pacific Gas and Electric (PG&E, my utility company), and he says that this is a state program (CA), and that it's just with PG&E and California Energy Services, noone else, and that the contract was awarded to CES because of their stellar record, rated A+ and 15 years without a complaint. He says that the Trane discount on the furnaces is $2000 apiece (2 furnaces proposed for my house) for a total of $4000 and that that discount will expire at the end of the month (i.e. end of July 2011). PG&E's rebates are $150/furnace. He says that the Trane discounts are for this program only (I asked him that question specifically). He said there's also a tax credit available of up to $200/system, but in my case it probably doesn't matter. My income was so low the last two years I paid zero federal taxes. I asked him about permitting (I'm in Berkeley, CA) and he said the inspector would come out and check out the furnace installation, nothing else and that it would be part of the program, no charge to me. If the program wasn't involved, I would be subject to a $300-$500 permit fee. The no interest loan for one year is just that, never pay any interest with one catch, being that I have to pay off the loan entirely by the end of one year or I pay plenty of interest. The loan is through Wells Fargo. If I don't anticipate being able to pay off by the end of a year I can get a 9% fixed interest loan, otherwise it could be 25-26%. I have a HELOC, so I could pay off the loan no problem before a year's up. He says the furnaces would be 20,000 BTU apiece (he said that since my house is almost 2000 square feet, the rule of thumb to have 10,000 BTU/500 square feet of floor space determines that), with 6 registers each. He said if I need a 7th register it would be no problem, no charge. The ducts would be 6-8" R6 insulated. They'll run flu exhaust as required, the one in the attic up through the roof and sealed as required. The furnaces would be suspended (i.e. in the crawl space, it would be suspended above the ground by brackets) and would be in the center of the house to avoid long/short runs, or at least ameliorate them. The problem of access was another thing I brought up. I wanted to know if I'd have to pay extra for that. He said around $150-200. The furnaces are 95.5% efficient, dimensioned 20" x 30" x 40", so they'd need a 20x30" hole to get them in. Do you guys still think this is a scam or that I'm being over charged or that they really should check out the house more carefully? Dan Email: dmusicant at pacbell dot net |
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New (house) heating system... is this a good/great deal? -- Follow up call from guy who inspected my house
Dan Musicant wrote in
: I just got a call from the guy who came over my house on Saturday. I told him I'm investigating my options. Then I asked a few questions: I tried to find out what exact relationship his company has with Pacific Gas and Electric (PG&E, my utility company), and he says that this is a state program (CA), and that it's just with PG&E and California Energy Services, noone else, and that the contract was awarded to CES because of their stellar record, rated A+ and 15 years without a complaint. He says that the Trane discount on the furnaces is $2000 apiece (2 furnaces proposed for my house) for a total of $4000 and that that discount will expire at the end of the month (i.e. end of July 2011). PG&E's rebates are $150/furnace. He says that the Trane discounts are for this program only (I asked him that question specifically). He said there's also a tax credit available of up to $200/system, but in my case it probably doesn't matter. My income was so low the last two years I paid zero federal taxes. I asked him about permitting (I'm in Berkeley, CA) and he said the inspector would come out and check out the furnace installation, nothing else and that it would be part of the program, no charge to me. If the program wasn't involved, I would be subject to a $300-$500 permit fee. The no interest loan for one year is just that, never pay any interest with one catch, being that I have to pay off the loan entirely by the end of one year or I pay plenty of interest. The loan is through Wells Fargo. If I don't anticipate being able to pay off by the end of a year I can get a 9% fixed interest loan, otherwise it could be 25-26%. I have a HELOC, so I could pay off the loan no problem before a year's up. He says the furnaces would be 20,000 BTU apiece (he said that since my house is almost 2000 square feet, the rule of thumb to have 10,000 BTU/500 square feet of floor space determines that), with 6 registers each. He said if I need a 7th register it would be no problem, no charge. The ducts would be 6-8" R6 insulated. They'll run flu exhaust as required, the one in the attic up through the roof and sealed as required. The furnaces would be suspended (i.e. in the crawl space, it would be suspended above the ground by brackets) and would be in the center of the house to avoid long/short runs, or at least ameliorate them. The problem of access was another thing I brought up. I wanted to know if I'd have to pay extra for that. He said around $150-200. The furnaces are 95.5% efficient, dimensioned 20" x 30" x 40", so they'd need a 20x30" hole to get them in. Do you guys still think this is a scam or that I'm being over charged or that they really should check out the house more carefully? Dan Email: dmusicant at pacbell dot net Make sure you can keep the humidity low in the crawl space. Someone I know has a furnace there and had to replace it a couple of times because it got rusty and quit working. |
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New (house) heating system... is this a good/great deal? --Follow up call from guy who inspected my house
On Jul 6, 11:46*pm, Dan Musicant wrote:
I just got a call from the guy who came over my house on Saturday. I told him I'm investigating my options. Then I asked a few questions: I tried to find out what exact relationship his company has with Pacific Gas and Electric (PG&E, my utility company), and he says that this is a state program (CA), and that it's just with PG&E and California Energy Services, noone else, and that the contract was awarded to CES because of their stellar record, rated A+ and 15 years without a complaint. He says that the Trane discount on the furnaces is $2000 apiece (2 furnaces proposed for my house) for a total of $4000 and that that discount will expire at the end of the month (i.e. end of July 2011). You can go online and find the prices that you could buy the furnaces for. ACwholesalers.com is one site, you can find others. As an example, you'll find that you can buy a Rheem gas furnace that's 45K BTU for $1200 including delivery. That's a 95%, dual stage, variable speed blower, a top of the line unit. And that's YOUR cost for buying one. Presumably a HVAC company can get even better pricing. If you want AC too, that adds a similar amount. Trane eqpt costs a bit more than Rheem, but it sure isn't enough more that they could be giving a true $2K discount on a furnace or it would be free. Also, according to ConsumerReports, Rheem actually got a higher rating than Trane and some of the other companies. I think overall thought CR said that the differences were not statistically significant, so I would not be paying a premium price to get a Trane. PG&E's rebates are $150/furnace. He says that the Trane discounts are for this program only (I asked him that question specifically). He said there's also a tax credit available of up to $200/system, but in my case it probably doesn't matter. My income was so low the last two years I paid zero federal taxes. I asked him about permitting (I'm in Berkeley, CA) and he said the inspector would come out and check out the furnace installation, nothing else and that it would be part of the program, no charge to me. If the program wasn't involved, I would be subject to a $300-$500 permit fee. That sound fishy too. I've never heard of a municipality waving permit fees because of any special program. But a quick call to the building department could verify it. It's Berkely so the fees could be high, but $300 to $500 sounds high to me. Here in NJ you need 3 permits and the cost is around $200. The no interest loan for one year is just that, never pay any interest with one catch, being that I have to pay off the loan entirely by the end of one year or I pay plenty of interest. The loan is through Wells Fargo. If I don't anticipate being able to pay off by the end of a year I can get a 9% fixed interest loan, otherwise it could be 25-26%. I have a HELOC, so I could pay off the loan no problem before a year's up. He says the furnaces would be 20,000 BTU apiece (he said that since my house is almost 2000 square feet, the rule of thumb to have 10,000 BTU/500 square feet of floor space determines that), with 6 registers each. * He said if I need a 7th register it would be no problem, no charge. The ducts would be 6-8" R6 insulated. They'll run flu exhaust as required, the one in the attic up through the roof and sealed as required. The furnaces would be suspended (i.e. in the crawl space, it would be suspended above the ground by brackets) and would be in the center of the house to avoid long/short runs, or at least ameliorate them. That is where a lot of the total cost is, running the required ducting for a new install. The prices you had posted for the complete system, ie $7500 for one furnace, $13,000 for two, actually sounds reasonable. The problem of access was another thing I brought up. I wanted to know if I'd have to pay extra for that. He said around $150-200. The furnaces are 95.5% efficient, dimensioned 20" x 30" x 40", so they'd need a 20x30" hole to get them in. That sounds very low if modifications have to be made to get access to an attic. Also, what kind of access? Something that leaves a permanent access thats larger or just a temporary hole cut in the ceiling and then covered back up? Either way, $200 sounds very low. Do you guys still think this is a scam or that I'm being over charged or that they really should check out the house more carefully? Dan Email: dmusicant at pacbell dot net As I said before, they guy didn't even go into the attic to look before quoting the job and proposing to install a furnace up there. That is shyster. If they do business like that, I don't want to find out what else they would pull in the middle of the job. |
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New (house) heating system... is this a good/great deal? -- Follow up call from guy who inspected my house
On Thu, 7 Jul 2011 06:03:04 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote: :On Jul 6, 11:46*pm, Dan Musicant wrote: : I just got a call from the guy who came over my house on Saturday. I : told him I'm investigating my options. Then I asked a few questions: : : I tried to find out what exact relationship his company has with Pacific : Gas and Electric (PG&E, my utility company), and he says that this is a : state program (CA), and that it's just with PG&E and California Energy : Services, noone else, and that the contract was awarded to CES because : of their stellar record, rated A+ and 15 years without a complaint. : : He says that the Trane discount on the furnaces is $2000 apiece (2 : furnaces proposed for my house) for a total of $4000 and that that : discount will expire at the end of the month (i.e. end of July 2011). : : :You can go online and find the prices that you could buy the :furnaces for. ACwholesalers.com is one site, you can find thers. As an example, you'll find that you can buy a :Rheem gas furnace that's 45K BTU for $1200 including :delivery. That's a 95%, dual stage, variable speed blower, :a top of the line unit. :And that's YOUR cost for buying one. Presumably :a HVAC company can get even better pricing. If you want :AC too, that adds a similar amount. Trane eqpt costs a :bit more than Rheem, but it sure isn't enough more that :they could be giving a true $2K discount on a furnace or :it would be free. : :Also, according to ConsumerReports, Rheem actually :got a higher rating than Trane and some of the other :companies. I think overall thought CR said that the :differences were not statistically significant, so I would :not be paying a premium price to get a Trane. I talked at length with a friend of mine who's installed two home heating systems and his attitude is I should do my homework and figure out what I need to do and do it myself, with help where required. He said the information I need is mostly stamped right there on the heater. He installed one in the house he bought, totally fixed up and sold and bought a used heater for $500 or so and installed it in a house he's partners on and rents. I'm going to look into buying online as you suggest. I'm also going to get some contractors to come over and figure out systems and get quotes. I may go for one of those or maybe work a deal where I do some of the work, especially if cutting access and repairing it is part of the project. I have most of the tools and some experience. : : : : : : PG&E's rebates are $150/furnace. He says that the Trane discounts are : for this program only (I asked him that question specifically). He said : there's also a tax credit available of up to $200/system, but in my case : it probably doesn't matter. My income was so low the last two years I : paid zero federal taxes. : : I asked him about permitting (I'm in Berkeley, CA) and he said the : inspector would come out and check out the furnace installation, nothing : else and that it would be part of the program, no charge to me. If the : program wasn't involved, I would be subject to a $300-$500 permit fee. : : :That sound fishy too. I've never heard of a municipality waving ermit fees because of any special program. But a quick :call to the building department could verify it. It's Berkely so :the fees could be high, but $300 to $500 sounds high to me. :Here in NJ you need 3 permits and the cost is around $200. : : : : : : The no interest loan for one year is just that, never pay any interest : with one catch, being that I have to pay off the loan entirely by the : end of one year or I pay plenty of interest. The loan is through Wells : Fargo. If I don't anticipate being able to pay off by the end of a year : I can get a 9% fixed interest loan, otherwise it could be 25-26%. I have : a HELOC, so I could pay off the loan no problem before a year's up. : : He says the furnaces would be 20,000 BTU apiece (he said that since my : house is almost 2000 square feet, the rule of thumb to have 10,000 : BTU/500 square feet of floor space determines that), with 6 registers : each. * He said if I need a 7th register it would be no problem, no : charge. The ducts would be 6-8" R6 insulated. They'll run flu exhaust as : required, the one in the attic up through the roof and sealed as : required. The furnaces would be suspended (i.e. in the crawl space, it : would be suspended above the ground by brackets) and would be in the : center of the house to avoid long/short runs, or at least ameliorate : them. : :That is where a lot of the total cost is, running the required ducting :for :a new install. The prices you had posted for the complete system, :ie $7500 for one furnace, $13,000 for two, actually sounds reasonable. This concerns me. I haven't done stuff like that before, running ducting, installing registers. Would it be possible for me to pressure test it? : : : : : The problem of access was another thing I brought up. I wanted to know : if I'd have to pay extra for that. He said around $150-200. The furnaces : are 95.5% efficient, dimensioned 20" x 30" x 40", so they'd need a : 20x30" hole to get them in. : :That sounds very low if modifications have to be made to get access :to an attic. Also, what kind of access? Something that leaves a ermanent access thats larger or just a temporary hole cut in the :ceiling and then covered back up? Either way, $200 sounds very :low. Yes, I could maybe do that myself. Some carpentry, wallboard afterward. : : : : : Do you guys still think this is a scam or that I'm being over charged or : that they really should check out the house more carefully? : : Dan : : Email: dmusicant at pacbell dot net : :As I said before, they guy didn't even go into the attic to look :before quoting the job and proposing to install a furnace :up there. That is shyster. If they do business like that, I :don't want to find out what else they would pull in the :middle of the job. Yes, that alone has me thinking I have to get some contractors over here. Next time he calls me (probably in a couple of weeks) I will ask him for some phone numbers of customers I can call for references. I have a feeling he won't provide that. However, I think I should call the utility company and the state, if possible, to ask about the program to which he says his company is the exclusive access. Dan Email: dmusicant at pacbell dot net |
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Posted to alt.home.repair,misc.consumers.frugal-living,misc.consumers.house
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New (house) heating system... is this a good/great deal? --Follow up call from guy who inspected my house
On Jul 7, 2:54*pm, Dan Musicant wrote:
On Thu, 7 Jul 2011 06:03:04 -0700 (PDT), " wrote: :On Jul 6, 11:46*pm, Dan Musicant wrote: : I just got a call from the guy who came over my house on Saturday. I : told him I'm investigating my options. Then I asked a few questions: : : I tried to find out what exact relationship his company has with Pacific : Gas and Electric (PG&E, my utility company), and he says that this is a : state program (CA), and that it's just with PG&E and California Energy : Services, noone else, and that the contract was awarded to CES because : of their stellar record, rated A+ and 15 years without a complaint. : : He says that the Trane discount on the furnaces is $2000 apiece (2 : furnaces proposed for my house) for a total of $4000 and that that : discount will expire at the end of the month (i.e. end of July 2011). : : :You can go online and find the prices that you could buy the :furnaces for. *ACwholesalers.com is one site, you can find thers. * As an example, you'll find that you can buy a :Rheem gas furnace that's 45K BTU for $1200 including :delivery. * That's a 95%, dual stage, variable speed blower, :a top of the line unit. :And that's YOUR cost for buying one. *Presumably :a HVAC company can get even better pricing. * If you want :AC too, that adds a similar amount. *Trane eqpt costs a :bit more than Rheem, but it sure isn't enough more that :they could be giving a true $2K discount on a furnace or :it would be free. : :Also, according to ConsumerReports, Rheem actually :got a higher rating than Trane and some of the other :companies. *I think overall thought CR said that the :differences were not statistically significant, so I would :not be paying a premium price to get a Trane. I talked at length with a friend of mine who's installed two home heating systems and his attitude is I should do my homework and figure out what I need to do and do it myself, with help where required. He said the information I need is mostly stamped right there on the heater. Not much of anything is stamped on a furnace, except the model #, BTU rating, and efficiency. There are installation instructions availabe and you can find them online. Replacing an existing furnace is something a reasonably skilled DIY person could do. It consists of swapping out the furnace, reconnecting gas and electric, venting the furnace which will be via 2" PVC for a high eff furnace, and doing whatever sheetmetal work is needed to mate up the existing duct work with the new furnace. However you have no existing duct system , nor is it clear if you need one furnace, two furnaces, how many registers, returns, etc. Doing that duct work is not trivial and without the right tools and skills I'd say it's beyond a DIY. Exactly how you would engage with a contractor to have you do part of it is not clear to me. I'd think most of them would want no part of that kind of deal because of all the potential problems. He installed one in the house he bought, totally fixed up and sold and bought a used heater for $500 or so and installed it in a house he's partners on and rents. Were those new installs that included doing the duct work or just replacements of the furnace? I'm going to look into buying online as you suggest. I'm also going to get some contractors to come over and figure out systems and get quotes. I may go for one of those or maybe work a deal where I do some of the work, especially if cutting access and repairing it is part of the project. I have most of the tools and some experience. : : : : : : PG&E's rebates are $150/furnace. He says that the Trane discounts are : for this program only (I asked him that question specifically). He said : there's also a tax credit available of up to $200/system, but in my case : it probably doesn't matter. My income was so low the last two years I : paid zero federal taxes. : : I asked him about permitting (I'm in Berkeley, CA) and he said the : inspector would come out and check out the furnace installation, nothing : else and that it would be part of the program, no charge to me. If the : program wasn't involved, I would be subject to a $300-$500 permit fee. : : :That sound fishy too. *I've never heard of a municipality waving ermit fees because of any special program. *But a quick :call to the building department could verify it. *It's Berkely so :the fees could be high, but $300 to $500 sounds high to me. :Here in NJ you need 3 permits and the cost is around $200. : : : : : : The no interest loan for one year is just that, never pay any interest : with one catch, being that I have to pay off the loan entirely by the : end of one year or I pay plenty of interest. The loan is through Wells : Fargo. If I don't anticipate being able to pay off by the end of a year : I can get a 9% fixed interest loan, otherwise it could be 25-26%. I have : a HELOC, so I could pay off the loan no problem before a year's up. : : He says the furnaces would be 20,000 BTU apiece (he said that since my : house is almost 2000 square feet, the rule of thumb to have 10,000 : BTU/500 square feet of floor space determines that), with 6 registers : each. * He said if I need a 7th register it would be no problem, no : charge. The ducts would be 6-8" R6 insulated. They'll run flu exhaust as : required, the one in the attic up through the roof and sealed as : required. The furnaces would be suspended (i.e. in the crawl space, it : would be suspended above the ground by brackets) and would be in the : center of the house to avoid long/short runs, or at least ameliorate : them. : :That is where a lot of the total cost is, running the required ducting :for :a new install. *The prices you had posted for the complete system, :ie $7500 for one furnace, $13,000 for two, actually sounds reasonable. This concerns me. I haven't done stuff like that before, running ducting, installing registers. Would it be possible for me to pressure test it? : : There is no pressure testing involved. : : : The problem of access was another thing I brought up. I wanted to know : if I'd have to pay extra for that. He said around $150-200. The furnaces : are 95.5% efficient, dimensioned 20" x 30" x 40", so they'd need a : 20x30" hole to get them in. : :That sounds very low if modifications have to be made to get access :to an attic. *Also, what kind of access? * Something that leaves a ermanent access thats larger or just a temporary hole cut in the :ceiling and then covered back up? * Either way, $200 sounds very :low. Yes, I could maybe do that myself. Some carpentry, wallboard afterward. : : : : : Do you guys still think this is a scam or that I'm being over charged or : that they really should check out the house more carefully? : : Dan : : Email: dmusicant at pacbell dot net : :As I said before, they guy didn't even go into the attic to look :before quoting the job and proposing to install a furnace :up there. *That is shyster. *If they do business like that, I :don't want to find out what else they would pull in the :middle of the job. Yes, that alone has me thinking I have to get some contractors over here. Next time he calls me (probably in a couple of weeks) I will ask him for some phone numbers of customers I can call for references. I have a feeling he won't provide that. However, I think I should call the utility company and the state, if possible, to ask about the program to which he says his company is the exclusive access. Dan Email: dmusicant at pacbell dot net I'd be very surprised if the state had a program to assist with the cost of new furnaces for low income folks and it was only through one company. Typically the state will provide some of the funding, but in every case I've heard of it's been open to all vendors. To do otherwise would be grossly unfair and have all the other vendors bitching. |
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