On Jul 7, 2:54*pm, Dan Musicant wrote:
On Thu, 7 Jul 2011 06:03:04 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:
:On Jul 6, 11:46*pm, Dan Musicant wrote:
: I just got a call from the guy who came over my house on Saturday. I
: told him I'm investigating my options. Then I asked a few questions:
:
: I tried to find out what exact relationship his company has with Pacific
: Gas and Electric (PG&E, my utility company), and he says that this is a
: state program (CA), and that it's just with PG&E and California Energy
: Services, noone else, and that the contract was awarded to CES because
: of their stellar record, rated A+ and 15 years without a complaint.
:
: He says that the Trane discount on the furnaces is $2000 apiece (2
: furnaces proposed for my house) for a total of $4000 and that that
: discount will expire at the end of the month (i.e. end of July 2011).
:
:
:You can go online and find the prices that you could buy the
:furnaces for. *ACwholesalers.com is one site, you can find
thers. * As an example, you'll find that you can buy a
:Rheem gas furnace that's 45K BTU for $1200 including
:delivery. * That's a 95%, dual stage, variable speed blower,
:a top of the line unit.
:And that's YOUR cost for buying one. *Presumably
:a HVAC company can get even better pricing. * If you want
:AC too, that adds a similar amount. *Trane eqpt costs a
:bit more than Rheem, but it sure isn't enough more that
:they could be giving a true $2K discount on a furnace or
:it would be free.
:
:Also, according to ConsumerReports, Rheem actually
:got a higher rating than Trane and some of the other
:companies. *I think overall thought CR said that the
:differences were not statistically significant, so I would
:not be paying a premium price to get a Trane.
I talked at length with a friend of mine who's installed two home
heating systems and his attitude is I should do my homework and figure
out what I need to do and do it myself, with help where required. He
said the information I need is mostly stamped right there on the heater.
Not much of anything is
stamped on a furnace, except the model #, BTU rating, and
efficiency. There are installation instructions availabe and you
can find them online.
Replacing an existing furnace is something a reasonably skilled
DIY person could do. It consists of swapping out the furnace,
reconnecting gas and electric, venting the furnace which
will be via 2" PVC for a high eff furnace, and doing whatever
sheetmetal work is needed to mate up the
existing duct work with the new furnace.
However you have no existing duct system
, nor is it clear if you need one furnace, two furnaces, how many
registers, returns, etc. Doing that duct work is not trivial and
without the right tools and skills I'd say it's beyond a DIY.
Exactly how you would engage with a contractor to have you
do part of it is not clear to me. I'd think most of them would
want no part of that kind of deal because of all the potential
problems.
He installed one in the house he bought, totally fixed up and sold and
bought a used heater for $500 or so and installed it in a house he's
partners on and rents.
Were those new installs that included doing the duct work or
just replacements of the furnace?
I'm going to look into buying online as you suggest. I'm also going to
get some contractors to come over and figure out systems and get quotes.
I may go for one of those or maybe work a deal where I do some of the
work, especially if cutting access and repairing it is part of the
project. I have most of the tools and some experience.
:
:
:
:
:
: PG&E's rebates are $150/furnace. He says that the Trane discounts are
: for this program only (I asked him that question specifically). He said
: there's also a tax credit available of up to $200/system, but in my case
: it probably doesn't matter. My income was so low the last two years I
: paid zero federal taxes.
:
: I asked him about permitting (I'm in Berkeley, CA) and he said the
: inspector would come out and check out the furnace installation, nothing
: else and that it would be part of the program, no charge to me. If the
: program wasn't involved, I would be subject to a $300-$500 permit fee.
:
:
:That sound fishy too. *I've never heard of a municipality waving
ermit fees because of any special program. *But a quick
:call to the building department could verify it. *It's Berkely so
:the fees could be high, but $300 to $500 sounds high to me.
:Here in NJ you need 3 permits and the cost is around $200.
:
:
:
:
:
: The no interest loan for one year is just that, never pay any interest
: with one catch, being that I have to pay off the loan entirely by the
: end of one year or I pay plenty of interest. The loan is through Wells
: Fargo. If I don't anticipate being able to pay off by the end of a year
: I can get a 9% fixed interest loan, otherwise it could be 25-26%. I have
: a HELOC, so I could pay off the loan no problem before a year's up.
:
: He says the furnaces would be 20,000 BTU apiece (he said that since my
: house is almost 2000 square feet, the rule of thumb to have 10,000
: BTU/500 square feet of floor space determines that), with 6 registers
: each. * He said if I need a 7th register it would be no problem, no
: charge. The ducts would be 6-8" R6 insulated. They'll run flu exhaust as
: required, the one in the attic up through the roof and sealed as
: required. The furnaces would be suspended (i.e. in the crawl space, it
: would be suspended above the ground by brackets) and would be in the
: center of the house to avoid long/short runs, or at least ameliorate
: them.
:
:That is where a lot of the total cost is, running the required ducting
:for
:a new install. *The prices you had posted for the complete system,
:ie $7500 for one furnace, $13,000 for two, actually sounds reasonable.
This concerns me. I haven't done stuff like that before, running
ducting, installing registers. Would it be possible for me to pressure
test it?
:
:
There is no pressure testing involved.
:
:
: The problem of access was another thing I brought up. I wanted to know
: if I'd have to pay extra for that. He said around $150-200. The furnaces
: are 95.5% efficient, dimensioned 20" x 30" x 40", so they'd need a
: 20x30" hole to get them in.
:
:That sounds very low if modifications have to be made to get access
:to an attic. *Also, what kind of access? * Something that leaves a
ermanent access thats larger or just a temporary hole cut in the
:ceiling and then covered back up? * Either way, $200 sounds very
:low.
Yes, I could maybe do that myself. Some carpentry, wallboard afterward.
:
:
:
:
: Do you guys still think this is a scam or that I'm being over charged or
: that they really should check out the house more carefully?
:
: Dan
:
: Email: dmusicant at pacbell dot net
:
:As I said before, they guy didn't even go into the attic to look
:before quoting the job and proposing to install a furnace
:up there. *That is shyster. *If they do business like that, I
:don't want to find out what else they would pull in the
:middle of the job.
Yes, that alone has me thinking I have to get some contractors over
here. Next time he calls me (probably in a couple of weeks) I will ask
him for some phone numbers of customers I can call for references. I
have a feeling he won't provide that. However, I think I should call the
utility company and the state, if possible, to ask about the program to
which he says his company is the exclusive access.
Dan
Email: dmusicant at pacbell dot net
I'd be very surprised if the state had a program to assist with the
cost of new furnaces for low income folks and it was only
through one company. Typically the state will provide some of the
funding, but in every case I've heard of it's been open to
all vendors. To do otherwise would be grossly unfair and have
all the other vendors bitching.