On 7/7/2011 1:54 PM, Dan Musicant wrote:

Yes, that alone has me thinking I have to get some contractors over
here. Next time he calls me (probably in a couple of weeks) I will ask
him for some phone numbers of customers I can call for references. I
have a feeling he won't provide that. However, I think I should call the
utility company and the state, if possible, to ask about the program to
which he says his company is the exclusive access.

A few years ago I got a card in the mail from a local organization
that said it had two programs to provide energy-related repairs and
upgrades to qualified homeowners, and suggested I contact them to
learn all the details. Turned out the programs were gov't funded,
limited to properties that, upon inspection and following an energy
audit, were deemed to be in good condition, yet would benefit from
energy-related improvements. There were additional income/home value
guidelines that had to be met.

Anyhow: the program didn't work with an exclusive contractor. I had to
get three bids, and anyone who wanted the work could bid on it. I
can't imagine a state-funded program getting away with limiting its
work to any particular contractor, because the others would
justifiably cry foul. I think they'd do the same if the local energy
company played favorites, too. So I'd certainly ask the state and
utility about this - and you might ask if there are any (other/legit)
programs that you might qualify for. If this is some sort of scam, you
might still find a program that'll help you out.

In my case, they had two programs available: qualified
homeowners/properties could either get an outright grant of funds for
authorized improvements, or get a no-interest deferred loan that was
fully forgiven after ten years _if_ the homeowner continued to own and
occupy the home for the duration of the loan. If the home was sold
prior to the end of the loan term, you have to pay a pro-rated amount:
90% after one year, 50% after five years, etc. These types of programs
are pretty common across the country, so it can't hurt to call your
city and county and inquire if they have such a program.

On Thu, 7 Jul 2011 13:20:34 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

:On Jul 7, 2:54*pm, Dan Musicant wrote:
: On Thu, 7 Jul 2011 06:03:04 -0700 (PDT), "
:
: wrote:
:
: :On Jul 6, 11:46*pm, Dan Musicant wrote:
: : I just got a call from the guy who came over my house on Saturday. I
: : told him I'm investigating my options. Then I asked a few questions:
: :
: : I tried to find out what exact relationship his company has with Pacific
: : Gas and Electric (PG&E, my utility company), and he says that this is a
: : state program (CA), and that it's just with PG&E and California Energy
: : Services, noone else, and that the contract was awarded to CES because
: : of their stellar record, rated A+ and 15 years without a complaint.
: :
: : He says that the Trane discount on the furnaces is $2000 apiece (2
: : furnaces proposed for my house) for a total of $4000 and that that
: : discount will expire at the end of the month (i.e. end of July 2011).
: :
: :
: :You can go online and find the prices that you could buy the
: :furnaces for. *ACwholesalers.com is one site, you can find
: thers. * As an example, you'll find that you can buy a
: :Rheem gas furnace that's 45K BTU for $1200 including
: :delivery. * That's a 95%, dual stage, variable speed blower,
: :a top of the line unit.
: :And that's YOUR cost for buying one. *Presumably
: :a HVAC company can get even better pricing. * If you want
: :AC too, that adds a similar amount. *Trane eqpt costs a
: :bit more than Rheem, but it sure isn't enough more that
: :they could be giving a true $2K discount on a furnace or
: :it would be free.
: :
: :Also, according to ConsumerReports, Rheem actually
: :got a higher rating than Trane and some of the other
: :companies. *I think overall thought CR said that the
: :differences were not statistically significant, so I would
: :not be paying a premium price to get a Trane.
:
: I talked at length with a friend of mine who's installed two home
: heating systems and his attitude is I should do my homework and figure
: out what I need to do and do it myself, with help where required. He
: said the information I need is mostly stamped right there on the heater.
:
:Not much of anything is
:stamped on a furnace, except the model #, BTU rating, and
:efficiency. There are installation instructions availabe and you
:can find them online.

Check. My "friend" is given to rants and hyperbole. He's cool, smart,
talented, painted houses (mostly interiors, I think) for a living until
he made some serious money buying fixing up and selling a house with
pretty damn good timing during the early 2000's housing boom. I have to
take a lot of things he says with a grain of salt.
:
:Replacing an existing furnace is something a reasonably skilled
IY person could do. It consists of swapping out the furnace,
:reconnecting gas and electric, venting the furnace which
:will be via 2" PVC for a high eff furnace, and doing whatever
:sheetmetal work is needed to mate up the
:existing duct work with the new furnace.
:
: However you have no existing duct system
:, nor is it clear if you need one furnace, two furnaces, how many
:registers, returns, etc. Doing that duct work is not trivial and
:without the right tools and skills I'd say it's beyond a DIY.
:Exactly how you would engage with a contractor to have you
:do part of it is not clear to me. I'd think most of them would
:want no part of that kind of deal because of all the potential
roblems.

I think I understand. I will probably get at least a handful of bids and
go with one. I was pricing ducting at Home Depot today. Looks to me like
that would cost me there from $400-$800, but I wouldn't even know what
to get, how to install it. I have zero experience in HVAC.
:
:
:
: He installed one in the house he bought, totally fixed up and sold and
: bought a used heater for $500 or so and installed it in a house he's
: partners on and rents.
:
:Were those new installs that included doing the duct work or
:just replacements of the furnace?

The first install was, I think, mostly if not entirely a new install. He
said he rand ducts and installed the registers himself, at least some of
them. This was a conversation we had last night, I don't remember
exactly, but the house was old, just as old as my 101 year old house. I
don't know what heating it had before he installed the furnace.

The furnace in the house he co-owns and rents was an insert furnace,
that I believe went in what had been a fireplace. The installation
probably didn't involve ducting at all. I think they ran a flue up the
chimney (?). He said that he and his partner did it in 2 days.
:
:
: I'm going to look into buying online as you suggest. I'm also going to
: get some contractors to come over and figure out systems and get quotes.
: I may go for one of those or maybe work a deal where I do some of the
: work, especially if cutting access and repairing it is part of the
: project. I have most of the tools and some experience.
:
: :
: :
: :
: :
: :
: : PG&E's rebates are $150/furnace. He says that the Trane discounts are
: : for this program only (I asked him that question specifically). He said
: : there's also a tax credit available of up to $200/system, but in my case
: : it probably doesn't matter. My income was so low the last two years I
: : paid zero federal taxes.
: :
: : I asked him about permitting (I'm in Berkeley, CA) and he said the
: : inspector would come out and check out the furnace installation, nothing
: : else and that it would be part of the program, no charge to me. If the
: : program wasn't involved, I would be subject to a $300-$500 permit fee.
: :
: :
: :That sound fishy too. *I've never heard of a municipality waving
: ermit fees because of any special program. *But a quick
: :call to the building department could verify it. *It's Berkely so
: :the fees could be high, but $300 to $500 sounds high to me.
: :Here in NJ you need 3 permits and the cost is around $200.
: :
: :
: :
: :
: :
: : The no interest loan for one year is just that, never pay any interest
: : with one catch, being that I have to pay off the loan entirely by the
: : end of one year or I pay plenty of interest. The loan is through Wells
: : Fargo. If I don't anticipate being able to pay off by the end of a year
: : I can get a 9% fixed interest loan, otherwise it could be 25-26%. I have
: : a HELOC, so I could pay off the loan no problem before a year's up.
: :
: : He says the furnaces would be 20,000 BTU apiece (he said that since my
: : house is almost 2000 square feet, the rule of thumb to have 10,000
: : BTU/500 square feet of floor space determines that), with 6 registers
: : each. * He said if I need a 7th register it would be no problem, no
: : charge. The ducts would be 6-8" R6 insulated. They'll run flu exhaust as
: : required, the one in the attic up through the roof and sealed as
: : required. The furnaces would be suspended (i.e. in the crawl space, it
: : would be suspended above the ground by brackets) and would be in the
: : center of the house to avoid long/short runs, or at least ameliorate
: : them.
: :
: :That is where a lot of the total cost is, running the required ducting
: :for
: :a new install. *The prices you had posted for the complete system,
: :ie $7500 for one furnace, $13,000 for two, actually sounds reasonable.
:
: This concerns me. I haven't done stuff like that before, running
: ducting, installing registers. Would it be possible for me to pressure
: test it?
: :
: :
:
:There is no pressure testing involved.
:
The guy from California Energy Services did say they'd pressure test the
system.
:
:
: :
: :
: : The problem of access was another thing I brought up. I wanted to know
: : if I'd have to pay extra for that. He said around $150-200. The furnaces
: : are 95.5% efficient, dimensioned 20" x 30" x 40", so they'd need a
: : 20x30" hole to get them in.
: :
: :That sounds very low if modifications have to be made to get access
: :to an attic. *Also, what kind of access? * Something that leaves a
: ermanent access thats larger or just a temporary hole cut in the
: :ceiling and then covered back up? * Either way, $200 sounds very
: :low.
:
: Yes, I could maybe do that myself. Some carpentry, wallboard afterward.
: :
: :
: :
: :
: : Do you guys still think this is a scam or that I'm being over charged or
: : that they really should check out the house more carefully?
: :
: : Dan
: :
: : Email: dmusicant at pacbell dot net
: :
: :As I said before, they guy didn't even go into the attic to look
: :before quoting the job and proposing to install a furnace
: :up there. *That is shyster. *If they do business like that, I
: :don't want to find out what else they would pull in the
: :middle of the job.
:
: Yes, that alone has me thinking I have to get some contractors over
: here. Next time he calls me (probably in a couple of weeks) I will ask
: him for some phone numbers of customers I can call for references. I
: have a feeling he won't provide that. However, I think I should call the
: utility company and the state, if possible, to ask about the program to
: which he says his company is the exclusive access.
:
: Dan
:
: Email: dmusicant at pacbell dot net
:
:I'd be very surprised if the state had a program to assist with the
:cost of new furnaces for low income folks and it was only
:through one company. Typically the state will provide some of the
:funding, but in every case I've heard of it's been open to
:all vendors. To do otherwise would be grossly unfair and have
:all the other vendors bitching.

I'm going to try to get to the bottom of that. I can call my utility
company and ask them for specifics and maybe call the state and find
out. Thanks for the help!



Email: dmusicant at pacbell dot net

On Thu, 07 Jul 2011 15:43:59 -0500, Hell Toupee wrote:

:On 7/7/2011 1:54 PM, Dan Musicant wrote:
:
: Yes, that alone has me thinking I have to get some contractors over
: here. Next time he calls me (probably in a couple of weeks) I will ask
: him for some phone numbers of customers I can call for references. I
: have a feeling he won't provide that. However, I think I should call the
: utility company and the state, if possible, to ask about the program to
: which he says his company is the exclusive access.
:
:A few years ago I got a card in the mail from a local organization
:that said it had two programs to provide energy-related repairs and
:upgrades to qualified homeowners, and suggested I contact them to
:learn all the details. Turned out the programs were gov't funded,
:limited to properties that, upon inspection and following an energy
:audit, were deemed to be in good condition, yet would benefit from
:energy-related improvements. There were additional income/home value
:guidelines that had to be met.

Interestingly, this company and the guy they sent out did not ask me
about my income. Possibly, they already know that I am already qualified
for a cut on my utility bills (based on my income) and I was therefore
pre-screened.
:
:Anyhow: the program didn't work with an exclusive contractor. I had to
:get three bids, and anyone who wanted the work could bid on it. I
:can't imagine a state-funded program getting away with limiting its
:work to any particular contractor, because the others would
:justifiably cry foul. I think they'd do the same if the local energy
:company played favorites, too. So I'd certainly ask the state and
:utility about this - and you might ask if there are any (other/legit)
rograms that you might qualify for. If this is some sort of scam, you
:might still find a program that'll help you out.

Either it's limited to this company or the guy was lieing. I'm going to
make some calls and find out!
:
:In my case, they had two programs available: qualified
:homeowners/properties could either get an outright grant of funds for
:authorized improvements, or get a no-interest deferred loan that was
:fully forgiven after ten years _if_ the homeowner continued to own and
ccupy the home for the duration of the loan. If the home was sold
rior to the end of the loan term, you have to pay a pro-rated amount:
:90% after one year, 50% after five years, etc. These types of programs
:are pretty common across the country, so it can't hurt to call your
:city and county and inquire if they have such a program.

I'm going to see what I can come up with. About 6-7 years ago I found
out about a program with the city I live in (Berkeley, CA) where for low
income homeowners, I could apply for interest free loans, up to two of
$35,000 each. I qualified and used some of the $70,000 allocated to me
to tear off and replace my roof. It had gotten to the point where it was
imperative, it not looking like the patching with roofing tar that I'd
been doing personally for a few years was going to get me through
another winter! I got several bids and picked one that looked good and
cost effective. That cost about $18,000, and it happened at the end of
2005. I tapped this again around 3-4 years ago when I suddenly needed a
trenchless sewer pipe replacement during which it was revealed that I
needed my water main replaced. Again, I found the company that did the
work.

So, I owe $27,000 right now, interest free until I either sell the house
or turn 90 years old. If I want to use that again I believe I have to
reapply. Not sure it's there for me until I talk to them, which I
haven't done since the sewer work. It is money I have to repay
eventually. Maybe there's something else, though, maybe something
involving the utility or a state program, or maybe county, as you say. I
haven't heard of a county program, but it can't hurt to inquire.



Email: dmusicant at pacbell dot net

On Fri, 8 Jul 2011 04:40:31 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

:On Jul 7, 10:24*pm, Dan Musicant wrote:
: : This concerns me. I haven't done stuff like that before, running
: : ducting, installing registers. Would it be possible for me to pressure
: : test it?
: : :
: : :
: :
: :There is no pressure testing involved.
: :
: The guy from California Energy Services did say they'd pressure test the
: system.
: :
: :
:
:He may be talking about a "blower door test", which is
:done as part of an energy audit to find air leaking into
:the house. Basicly they place a fan into a door or
:similar opening, seal it up and then use it to create
:as slight pressure differential betwen inside
:and outside the house.
:Then they look for drafts coming into the house around
:windows, doors, outlets, etc to identify points that can be
:sealed to reduce heating/cooling load.
:
:That kind of audit can be part of meeting the reqts
:for the programs where the state or utility kick in
:rebates, funding, etc

Understood. Seems like a good test to do. Maybe my utility company will
do that for me. I have had some weatherizaiton done here but I'm sure
I'll want to look at those issues again once a gas heating system is
installed.




Email: dmusicant at pacbell dot net

Dan Musicant wrote:

I just got a call from the guy who came over my house on Saturday. I
told him I'm investigating my options. Then I asked a few questions:

I tried to find out what exact relationship his company has with
Pacific Gas and Electric (PG&E, my utility company), and he says that
this is a state program (CA), and that it's just with PG&E and
California Energy Services, noone else, and that the contract was
awarded to CES because of their stellar record, rated A+ and 15 years
without a complaint.

He says that the Trane discount on the furnaces is $2000 apiece (2
furnaces proposed for my house) for a total of $4000 and that that
discount will expire at the end of the month (i.e. end of July 2011).
PG&E's rebates are $150/furnace. He says that the Trane discounts are
for this program only (I asked him that question specifically). He
said there's also a tax credit available of up to $200/system, but in
my case it probably doesn't matter. My income was so low the last two
years I paid zero federal taxes.

I asked him about permitting (I'm in Berkeley, CA) and he said the
inspector would come out and check out the furnace installation,
nothing else and that it would be part of the program, no charge to
me. If the program wasn't involved, I would be subject to a $300-$500
permit fee.

The no interest loan for one year is just that, never pay any interest
with one catch, being that I have to pay off the loan entirely by the
end of one year or I pay plenty of interest. The loan is through Wells
Fargo. If I don't anticipate being able to pay off by the end of a
year I can get a 9% fixed interest loan, otherwise it could be
25-26%. I have a HELOC, so I could pay off the loan no problem before
a year's up.

He says the furnaces would be 20,000 BTU apiece (he said that since my
house is almost 2000 square feet, the rule of thumb to have 10,000
BTU/500 square feet of floor space determines that), with 6 registers
each. He said if I need a 7th register it would be no problem, no
charge. The ducts would be 6-8" R6 insulated. They'll run flu exhaust
as required, the one in the attic up through the roof and sealed as
required. The furnaces would be suspended (i.e. in the crawl space, it
would be suspended above the ground by brackets) and would be in the
center of the house to avoid long/short runs, or at least ameliorate
them.

The problem of access was another thing I brought up. I wanted to know
if I'd have to pay extra for that. He said around $150-200. The
furnaces are 95.5% efficient, dimensioned 20" x 30" x 40", so they'd
need a 20x30" hole to get them in.

Do you guys still think this is a scam or that I'm being over charged
or that they really should check out the house more carefully?

40,000 BTU total sounds quite low from my experience. I just had an
80,000 BTU York (98% efficiency) installed in my house in Seattle. All
my previous houses (around the country) had furnaces of around 100,000
BTU (80% efficiency).

If there is an "exclusive state program," he should be able to refer
you to the appropriate state agency for information and confirmation of
details.

Permit fees are often included in the quote from major installers.

The 25%+ interest for not paying in full within a year is typical. It
is likely that that rate will be charged on the FULL amount, even if
only a small payment remains. Be sure you KNOW all the terms in
advance!

Again, get at least one other quote from a contractor of your choice;
preferably 3. Find out what they recommend in the way of number, size,
and positioning of the furnaces as well as the cost.

On Jul 9, 9:57*pm, "John Weiss" wrote:
Dan Musicant wrote:
I just got a call from the guy who came over my house on Saturday. I
told him I'm investigating my options. Then I asked a few questions:

I tried to find out what exact relationship his company has with
Pacific Gas and Electric (PG&E, my utility company), and he says that
this is a state program (CA), and that it's just with PG&E and
California Energy Services, noone else, and that the contract was
awarded to CES because of their stellar record, rated A+ and 15 years
without a complaint.

He says that the Trane discount on the furnaces is $2000 apiece (2
furnaces proposed for my house) for a total of $4000 and that that
discount will expire at the end of the month (i.e. end of July 2011).
PG&E's rebates are $150/furnace. He says that the Trane discounts are
for this program only (I asked him that question specifically). He
said there's also a tax credit available of up to $200/system, but in
my case it probably doesn't matter. My income was so low the last two
years I paid zero federal taxes.

I asked him about permitting (I'm in Berkeley, CA) and he said the
inspector would come out and check out the furnace installation,
nothing else and that it would be part of the program, no charge to
me. If the program wasn't involved, I would be subject to a $300-$500
permit fee.

The no interest loan for one year is just that, never pay any interest
with one catch, being that I have to pay off the loan entirely by the
end of one year or I pay plenty of interest. The loan is through Wells
Fargo. If I don't anticipate being able to pay off by the end of a
year I can get a 9% fixed interest loan, otherwise it could be
25-26%. I have a HELOC, so I could pay off the loan no problem before
a year's up.

He says the furnaces would be 20,000 BTU apiece (he said that since my
house is almost 2000 square feet, the rule of thumb to have 10,000
BTU/500 square feet of floor space determines that), with 6 registers
each. * He said if I need a 7th register it would be no problem, no
charge. The ducts would be 6-8" R6 insulated. They'll run flu exhaust
as required, the one in the attic up through the roof and sealed as
required. The furnaces would be suspended (i.e. in the crawl space, it
would be suspended above the ground by brackets) and would be in the
center of the house to avoid long/short runs, or at least ameliorate
them.

The problem of access was another thing I brought up. I wanted to know
if I'd have to pay extra for that. He said around $150-200. The
furnaces are 95.5% efficient, dimensioned 20" x 30" x 40", so they'd
need a 20x30" hole to get them in.

Do you guys still think this is a scam or that I'm being over charged
or that they really should check out the house more carefully?

40,000 BTU total sounds quite low from my experience. *I just had an
80,000 BTU York (98% efficiency) installed in my house in Seattle. *All
my previous houses (around the country) had furnaces of around 100,000
BTU (80% efficiency).


Good point.
I think you may be right. I would have thought 40,000 would be
enough for the bay area. But here's an online rough estimator
that says for 2,000 sq ft, you need 58,0000 OUTPUT btu. Assuming
95% eff, he'd need 61,000 btus.

Of course, this is just a rough estimate calculator, but I'd trust
it more than the shyster he's dealing with. Given the more
temperate climate, I'd also go with a two stage if possible so
that it can fire on low most days.





If there is an "exclusive state program," he should be able to refer
you to the appropriate state agency for information and confirmation of
details.

Permit fees are often included in the quote from major installers.

The 25%+ interest for not paying in full within a year is typical. *It
is likely that that rate will be charged on the FULL amount, even if
only a small payment remains. *Be sure you KNOW all the terms in
advance!

Again, get at least one other quote from a contractor of your choice;
preferably 3. *Find out what they recommend in the way of number, size,
and positioning of the furnaces as well as the cost.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

wrote:

40,000 BTU total sounds quite low from my experience. *I just had an
80,000 BTU York (98% efficiency) installed in my house in Seattle.
*All my previous houses (around the country) had furnaces of around
100,000 BTU (80% efficiency).

Good point.
I think you may be right. I would have thought 40,000 would be
enough for the bay area. But here's an online rough estimator
that says for 2,000 sq ft, you need 58,0000 OUTPUT btu. Assuming
95% eff, he'd need 61,000 btus.

Of course, this is just a rough estimate calculator, but I'd trust
it more than the shyster he's dealing with. Given the more
temperate climate, I'd also go with a two stage if possible so
that it can fire on low most days.

I don't know that there are any gas-fired furnaces at the 95%+
efficiency rating that are not multi-stage. The one in my old house
was 3-stage, and my new one has a 3-stage fan with a true variable
burner.