On Thu, 7 Jul 2011 13:20:34 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

:On Jul 7, 2:54*pm, Dan Musicant wrote:
: On Thu, 7 Jul 2011 06:03:04 -0700 (PDT), "
:
: wrote:
:
: :On Jul 6, 11:46*pm, Dan Musicant wrote:
: : I just got a call from the guy who came over my house on Saturday. I
: : told him I'm investigating my options. Then I asked a few questions:
: :
: : I tried to find out what exact relationship his company has with Pacific
: : Gas and Electric (PG&E, my utility company), and he says that this is a
: : state program (CA), and that it's just with PG&E and California Energy
: : Services, noone else, and that the contract was awarded to CES because
: : of their stellar record, rated A+ and 15 years without a complaint.
: :
: : He says that the Trane discount on the furnaces is $2000 apiece (2
: : furnaces proposed for my house) for a total of $4000 and that that
: : discount will expire at the end of the month (i.e. end of July 2011).
: :
: :
: :You can go online and find the prices that you could buy the
: :furnaces for. *ACwholesalers.com is one site, you can find
: thers. * As an example, you'll find that you can buy a
: :Rheem gas furnace that's 45K BTU for $1200 including
: :delivery. * That's a 95%, dual stage, variable speed blower,
: :a top of the line unit.
: :And that's YOUR cost for buying one. *Presumably
: :a HVAC company can get even better pricing. * If you want
: :AC too, that adds a similar amount. *Trane eqpt costs a
: :bit more than Rheem, but it sure isn't enough more that
: :they could be giving a true $2K discount on a furnace or
: :it would be free.
: :
: :Also, according to ConsumerReports, Rheem actually
: :got a higher rating than Trane and some of the other
: :companies. *I think overall thought CR said that the
: :differences were not statistically significant, so I would
: :not be paying a premium price to get a Trane.
:
: I talked at length with a friend of mine who's installed two home
: heating systems and his attitude is I should do my homework and figure
: out what I need to do and do it myself, with help where required. He
: said the information I need is mostly stamped right there on the heater.
:
:Not much of anything is
:stamped on a furnace, except the model #, BTU rating, and
:efficiency. There are installation instructions availabe and you
:can find them online.

Check. My "friend" is given to rants and hyperbole. He's cool, smart,
talented, painted houses (mostly interiors, I think) for a living until
he made some serious money buying fixing up and selling a house with
pretty damn good timing during the early 2000's housing boom. I have to
take a lot of things he says with a grain of salt.
:
:Replacing an existing furnace is something a reasonably skilled
IY person could do. It consists of swapping out the furnace,
:reconnecting gas and electric, venting the furnace which
:will be via 2" PVC for a high eff furnace, and doing whatever
:sheetmetal work is needed to mate up the
:existing duct work with the new furnace.
:
: However you have no existing duct system
:, nor is it clear if you need one furnace, two furnaces, how many
:registers, returns, etc. Doing that duct work is not trivial and
:without the right tools and skills I'd say it's beyond a DIY.
:Exactly how you would engage with a contractor to have you
:do part of it is not clear to me. I'd think most of them would
:want no part of that kind of deal because of all the potential
roblems.

I think I understand. I will probably get at least a handful of bids and
go with one. I was pricing ducting at Home Depot today. Looks to me like
that would cost me there from $400-$800, but I wouldn't even know what
to get, how to install it. I have zero experience in HVAC.
:
:
:
: He installed one in the house he bought, totally fixed up and sold and
: bought a used heater for $500 or so and installed it in a house he's
: partners on and rents.
:
:Were those new installs that included doing the duct work or
:just replacements of the furnace?

The first install was, I think, mostly if not entirely a new install. He
said he rand ducts and installed the registers himself, at least some of
them. This was a conversation we had last night, I don't remember
exactly, but the house was old, just as old as my 101 year old house. I
don't know what heating it had before he installed the furnace.

The furnace in the house he co-owns and rents was an insert furnace,
that I believe went in what had been a fireplace. The installation
probably didn't involve ducting at all. I think they ran a flue up the
chimney (?). He said that he and his partner did it in 2 days.
:
:
: I'm going to look into buying online as you suggest. I'm also going to
: get some contractors to come over and figure out systems and get quotes.
: I may go for one of those or maybe work a deal where I do some of the
: work, especially if cutting access and repairing it is part of the
: project. I have most of the tools and some experience.
:
: :
: :
: :
: :
: :
: : PG&E's rebates are $150/furnace. He says that the Trane discounts are
: : for this program only (I asked him that question specifically). He said
: : there's also a tax credit available of up to $200/system, but in my case
: : it probably doesn't matter. My income was so low the last two years I
: : paid zero federal taxes.
: :
: : I asked him about permitting (I'm in Berkeley, CA) and he said the
: : inspector would come out and check out the furnace installation, nothing
: : else and that it would be part of the program, no charge to me. If the
: : program wasn't involved, I would be subject to a $300-$500 permit fee.
: :
: :
: :That sound fishy too. *I've never heard of a municipality waving
: ermit fees because of any special program. *But a quick
: :call to the building department could verify it. *It's Berkely so
: :the fees could be high, but $300 to $500 sounds high to me.
: :Here in NJ you need 3 permits and the cost is around $200.
: :
: :
: :
: :
: :
: : The no interest loan for one year is just that, never pay any interest
: : with one catch, being that I have to pay off the loan entirely by the
: : end of one year or I pay plenty of interest. The loan is through Wells
: : Fargo. If I don't anticipate being able to pay off by the end of a year
: : I can get a 9% fixed interest loan, otherwise it could be 25-26%. I have
: : a HELOC, so I could pay off the loan no problem before a year's up.
: :
: : He says the furnaces would be 20,000 BTU apiece (he said that since my
: : house is almost 2000 square feet, the rule of thumb to have 10,000
: : BTU/500 square feet of floor space determines that), with 6 registers
: : each. * He said if I need a 7th register it would be no problem, no
: : charge. The ducts would be 6-8" R6 insulated. They'll run flu exhaust as
: : required, the one in the attic up through the roof and sealed as
: : required. The furnaces would be suspended (i.e. in the crawl space, it
: : would be suspended above the ground by brackets) and would be in the
: : center of the house to avoid long/short runs, or at least ameliorate
: : them.
: :
: :That is where a lot of the total cost is, running the required ducting
: :for
: :a new install. *The prices you had posted for the complete system,
: :ie $7500 for one furnace, $13,000 for two, actually sounds reasonable.
:
: This concerns me. I haven't done stuff like that before, running
: ducting, installing registers. Would it be possible for me to pressure
: test it?
: :
: :
:
:There is no pressure testing involved.
:
The guy from California Energy Services did say they'd pressure test the
system.
:
:
: :
: :
: : The problem of access was another thing I brought up. I wanted to know
: : if I'd have to pay extra for that. He said around $150-200. The furnaces
: : are 95.5% efficient, dimensioned 20" x 30" x 40", so they'd need a
: : 20x30" hole to get them in.
: :
: :That sounds very low if modifications have to be made to get access
: :to an attic. *Also, what kind of access? * Something that leaves a
: ermanent access thats larger or just a temporary hole cut in the
: :ceiling and then covered back up? * Either way, $200 sounds very
: :low.
:
: Yes, I could maybe do that myself. Some carpentry, wallboard afterward.
: :
: :
: :
: :
: : Do you guys still think this is a scam or that I'm being over charged or
: : that they really should check out the house more carefully?
: :
: : Dan
: :
: : Email: dmusicant at pacbell dot net
: :
: :As I said before, they guy didn't even go into the attic to look
: :before quoting the job and proposing to install a furnace
: :up there. *That is shyster. *If they do business like that, I
: :don't want to find out what else they would pull in the
: :middle of the job.
:
: Yes, that alone has me thinking I have to get some contractors over
: here. Next time he calls me (probably in a couple of weeks) I will ask
: him for some phone numbers of customers I can call for references. I
: have a feeling he won't provide that. However, I think I should call the
: utility company and the state, if possible, to ask about the program to
: which he says his company is the exclusive access.
:
: Dan
:
: Email: dmusicant at pacbell dot net
:
:I'd be very surprised if the state had a program to assist with the
:cost of new furnaces for low income folks and it was only
:through one company. Typically the state will provide some of the
:funding, but in every case I've heard of it's been open to
:all vendors. To do otherwise would be grossly unfair and have
:all the other vendors bitching.

I'm going to try to get to the bottom of that. I can call my utility
company and ask them for specifics and maybe call the state and find
out. Thanks for the help!



Email: dmusicant at pacbell dot net