Last week, I posted about running 12/2 wire for a kitchen reno. Well
all the circuits are run. I decided on running all 12/2 instead of
12/3 and splitting circuits. Looking ahead to outlets, had a question.
I think I know the answer, but just wanted to confirm.

I ran 4 new circuits for the fridge, microwave/range hood, and counter
outlets. Am I allowed to use regular 15A outlets? For the counter
outlets, I am using regular 15A Decora and GFI's, and for the fridge,
microwave just wanted to use regular outlets, like the kind you can
get a 10Pk for like $5 at Lowes.

"Mikepier" wrote in message
...
Last week, I posted about running 12/2 wire for a kitchen reno. Well
all the circuits are run. I decided on running all 12/2 instead of
12/3 and splitting circuits. Looking ahead to outlets, had a question.
I think I know the answer, but just wanted to confirm.

I ran 4 new circuits for the fridge, microwave/range hood, and counter
outlets. Am I allowed to use regular 15A outlets? For the counter
outlets, I am using regular 15A Decora and GFI's, and for the fridge,
microwave just wanted to use regular outlets, like the kind you can
get a 10Pk for like $5 at Lowes.

15 amp outlets are fine. The refrigerator doesn't need to be GFCI protected,
but all the counter outlets do. A 15 amp GFCI outlet has a 20 amp feed
through

"RBM" wrote in message
...

"Mikepier" wrote in message
...
Last week, I posted about running 12/2 wire for a kitchen reno. Well
all the circuits are run. I decided on running all 12/2 instead of
12/3 and splitting circuits. Looking ahead to outlets, had a question.
I think I know the answer, but just wanted to confirm.

I ran 4 new circuits for the fridge, microwave/range hood, and counter
outlets. Am I allowed to use regular 15A outlets? For the counter
outlets, I am using regular 15A Decora and GFI's, and for the fridge,
microwave just wanted to use regular outlets, like the kind you can
get a 10Pk for like $5 at Lowes.

15 amp outlets are fine. The refrigerator doesn't need to be GFCI
protected, but all the counter outlets do. A 15 amp GFCI outlet has a 20
amp feed through

Just to clarify. A single 15 amp outlet can't be installed on a 20 amp
dedicated circuit, but a duplex is fine

On Oct 12, 7:56*am, "RBM" wrote:
"RBM" wrote in message

...







"Mikepier" wrote in message
....
Last week, I posted about running 12/2 wire for a kitchen reno. Well
all the circuits are run. I decided on running all 12/2 instead of
12/3 and splitting circuits. Looking ahead to outlets, had a question.
I think I know the answer, but just wanted to confirm.

I ran 4 new circuits for the fridge, microwave/range hood, and counter
outlets. Am I allowed to use regular 15A outlets? For the counter
outlets, I am using regular 15A Decora and GFI's, and for the fridge,
microwave just wanted to use regular outlets, like the kind you can
get a 10Pk for like $5 at Lowes.

15 amp outlets are fine. The refrigerator doesn't need to be GFCI
protected, but all the counter outlets do. A 15 amp GFCI outlet has a 20
amp feed through

Just to clarify. A single 15 amp outlet can't be installed on a 20 amp
dedicated circuit, but a duplex is fine



- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

This is another example of things in the code that don't seem to make
any sense, at least to me. If one can install multiple 15 amp
outlets on a 20 amp circuit, why the restriction on installing just
one?

And while we're at it, the code also says you can use a 20 amp single
outlet on a 15 amp circuit, but you can't install multiple 20's on a
15 amp circuit.

Why the big distinction between single versus multiple outlets?

On Oct 12, 8:56*am, wrote:
On Oct 12, 7:56*am, "RBM" wrote:





"RBM" wrote in message

...

"Mikepier" wrote in message
....
Last week, I posted about running 12/2 wire for a kitchen reno. Well
all the circuits are run. I decided on running all 12/2 instead of
12/3 and splitting circuits. Looking ahead to outlets, had a question.

On Oct 12, 9:21*am, N8N wrote:
On Oct 12, 8:56*am, wrote:





On Oct 12, 7:56*am, "RBM" wrote:

"RBM" wrote in message

...

"Mikepier" wrote in message
...
Last week, I posted about running 12/2 wire for a kitchen reno. Well
all the circuits are run. I decided on running all 12/2 instead of
12/3 and splitting circuits. Looking ahead to outlets, had a question.
I think I know the answer, but just wanted to confirm.

I ran 4 new circuits for the fridge, microwave/range hood, and counter
outlets. Am I allowed to use regular 15A outlets? For the counter
outlets, I am using regular 15A Decora and GFI's, and for the fridge,
microwave just wanted to use regular outlets, like the kind you can
get a 10Pk for like $5 at Lowes.

15 amp outlets are fine. The refrigerator doesn't need to be GFCI
protected, but all the counter outlets do. A 15 amp GFCI outlet has a 20
amp feed through

Just to clarify. A single 15 amp outlet can't be installed on a 20 amp
dedicated circuit, but a duplex is fine

- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

This is another example of things in the code that don't seem to make
any sense, at least to me. * If one can install multiple 15 amp
outlets on a 20 amp circuit, why the restriction on installing just
one?

And while we're at it, the code also says you can use a 20 amp single
outlet on a 15 amp circuit, but you can't install multiple 20's on a
15 amp circuit.

Why the big distinction between single versus multiple outlets?

I would ASSume because that if you were drawing, say, 18A on a circuit
that only had one 15A single receptacle on it, it'd be a fair bet that
it was whatever was plugged into that recep that was drawing all that
current. *However, with a *duplex* recep that is not necessarily the
case.

nate- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

But let's say you have a coffee maker and a toaster plugged into one
15A duplex, and both are being used at the same time. Obviously now
you are drawing more than 15A. Can the duplex handle that? Is each
outlet rated for 15A, or is the entire device rated for 15A?

On 10/12/2010 8:43 AM, Mikepier wrote:
On Oct 12, 9:21 am, wrote:
On Oct 12, 8:56 am, wrote:





On Oct 12, 7:56 am, wrote:

wrote in message

...

wrote in message
...
Last week, I posted about running 12/2 wire for a kitchen reno. Well
all the circuits are run. I decided on running all 12/2 instead of
12/3 and splitting circuits. Looking ahead to outlets, had a question.
I think I know the answer, but just wanted to confirm.

I ran 4 new circuits for the fridge, microwave/range hood, and counter
outlets. Am I allowed to use regular 15A outlets? For the counter
outlets, I am using regular 15A Decora and GFI's, and for the fridge,
microwave just wanted to use regular outlets, like the kind you can
get a 10Pk for like $5 at Lowes.

15 amp outlets are fine. The refrigerator doesn't need to be GFCI
protected, but all the counter outlets do. A 15 amp GFCI outlet has a 20
amp feed through

Just to clarify. A single 15 amp outlet can't be installed on a 20 amp
dedicated circuit, but a duplex is fine

- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

This is another example of things in the code that don't seem to make
any sense, at least to me. If one can install multiple 15 amp
outlets on a 20 amp circuit, why the restriction on installing just
one?

And while we're at it, the code also says you can use a 20 amp single
outlet on a 15 amp circuit, but you can't install multiple 20's on a
15 amp circuit.

Why the big distinction between single versus multiple outlets?

I would ASSume because that if you were drawing, say, 18A on a circuit
that only had one 15A single receptacle on it, it'd be a fair bet that
it was whatever was plugged into that recep that was drawing all that
current. However, with a *duplex* recep that is not necessarily the
case.

nate- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

But let's say you have a coffee maker and a toaster plugged into one
15A duplex, and both are being used at the same time. Obviously now
you are drawing more than 15A. Can the duplex handle that? Is each
outlet rated for 15A, or is the entire device rated for 15A?

they been handling it for years in every house i've ever seen. I've
never seen a 20a outlet installed. Ever.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

Mikepier wrote:
On Oct 12, 9:21 am, N8N wrote:
On Oct 12, 8:56 am, wrote:





On Oct 12, 7:56 am, "RBM" wrote:
"RBM" wrote in message
...
"Mikepier" wrote in message
...
Last week, I posted about running 12/2 wire for a kitchen reno. Well
all the circuits are run. I decided on running all 12/2 instead of
12/3 and splitting circuits. Looking ahead to outlets, had a question.
I think I know the answer, but just wanted to confirm.
I ran 4 new circuits for the fridge, microwave/range hood, and counter
outlets. Am I allowed to use regular 15A outlets? For the counter
outlets, I am using regular 15A Decora and GFI's, and for the fridge,
microwave just wanted to use regular outlets, like the kind you can
get a 10Pk for like $5 at Lowes.
15 amp outlets are fine. The refrigerator doesn't need to be GFCI
protected, but all the counter outlets do. A 15 amp GFCI outlet has a 20
amp feed through
Just to clarify. A single 15 amp outlet can't be installed on a 20 amp
dedicated circuit, but a duplex is fine

This is another example of things in the code that don't seem to make
any sense, at least to me. If one can install multiple 15 amp
outlets on a 20 amp circuit, why the restriction on installing just
one?

To make sure the distinction is clear, if you have a 20A circuit and
there is only a single receptacle (not duplex) on the whole circuit it
can't be a 15A one. If it was, the receptacle would not allow the
circuit to be used at 20A. Wouldn't be the worst thing in the world, but
IMHO a reasonable restriction.

And while we're at it, the code also says you can use a 20 amp single
outlet on a 15 amp circuit, but you can't install multiple 20's on a
15 amp circuit.

You can't install any 20A receptacles on a 15A circuit. If you did, you
could plug in devices with a rating of over 15A (has a 20A plug) on the
15A circuit.

Why the big distinction between single versus multiple outlets?
I would ASSume because that if you were drawing, say, 18A on a circuit
that only had one 15A single receptacle on it, it'd be a fair bet that
it was whatever was plugged into that recep that was drawing all that
current. However, with a *duplex* recep that is not necessarily the
case.

Presumably a device with a 15A plug would not draw 18A. A plug-in strip
is likely to have a circuit breaker. (You could with an extension cord
with 3 outlets.)


nate

But let's say you have a coffee maker and a toaster plugged into one
15A duplex, and both are being used at the same time. Obviously now
you are drawing more than 15A. Can the duplex handle that? Is each
outlet rated for 15A, or is the entire device rated for 15A?

Each half is rated 15A and the whole device is rated 20A. Also rated 20A
wire-through. (As a practical matter, I suspect it would be hard to make
a receptacle that would be OK at 15A but not at 20A.)

--
bud--

On Oct 12, 7:43*am, Mikepier wrote:
On Oct 12, 9:21*am, N8N wrote:



On Oct 12, 8:56*am, wrote:

On Oct 12, 7:56*am, "RBM" wrote:

"RBM" wrote in message

...

"Mikepier" wrote in message
...
Last week, I posted about running 12/2 wire for a kitchen reno. Well
all the circuits are run. I decided on running all 12/2 instead of
12/3 and splitting circuits. Looking ahead to outlets, had a question.
I think I know the answer, but just wanted to confirm.

I ran 4 new circuits for the fridge, microwave/range hood, and counter
outlets. Am I allowed to use regular 15A outlets? For the counter
outlets, I am using regular 15A Decora and GFI's, and for the fridge,
microwave just wanted to use regular outlets, like the kind you can
get a 10Pk for like $5 at Lowes.

15 amp outlets are fine. The refrigerator doesn't need to be GFCI
protected, but all the counter outlets do. A 15 amp GFCI outlet has a 20
amp feed through

Just to clarify. A single 15 amp outlet can't be installed on a 20 amp
dedicated circuit, but a duplex is fine

- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

This is another example of things in the code that don't seem to make
any sense, at least to me. * If one can install multiple 15 amp
outlets on a 20 amp circuit, why the restriction on installing just
one?

And while we're at it, the code also says you can use a 20 amp single
outlet on a 15 amp circuit, but you can't install multiple 20's on a
15 amp circuit.

Why the big distinction between single versus multiple outlets?

I would ASSume because that if you were drawing, say, 18A on a circuit
that only had one 15A single receptacle on it, it'd be a fair bet that
it was whatever was plugged into that recep that was drawing all that
current. *However, with a *duplex* recep that is not necessarily the
case.

nate- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

But let's say you have a coffee maker and a toaster plugged into one
15A duplex, and both are being used at the same time. Obviously now
you are drawing more than 15A. Can the duplex handle that? Is each
outlet rated for 15A, or is the entire device rated for 15A?

==
You'd better re-read the code book. There is a difference with "split"
receptacles in wiring procedure. If you plug two appliances and each
are drawing 15 amp into an unsplit duplex receptacle which is serviced
by one duplex cable, you will blow the circuit breaker. If the split
receptacle is serviced by two different hot leads each appliance will
draw 15 amp and the load is 15 amp on each HALF of the receptacle.
Most code books that I've seen diagram how to do kitchen circuits as
most "counter" circuits require 20 amp breakers.

Bob wrote:
On Oct 12, 11:07 am, Roy wrote:
....

You'd better re-read the code book. There is a difference with "split"
receptacles in wiring procedure. If you plug two appliances and each
are drawing 15 amp into an unsplit duplex receptacle which is serviced
by one duplex cable, you will blow the circuit breaker. If the split
receptacle is serviced by two different hot leads each appliance will
draw 15 amp and the load is 15 amp on each HALF of the receptacle.
Most code books that I've seen diagram how to do kitchen circuits as
most "counter" circuits require 20 amp breakers.- Hide quoted text -

....
The only code book that counts is the NEC, and it doesn't show
diagrams of how to do kitchen circuits or anything else for that
matter.

As for the question about whether a 15 amp duplex receptacle can
handle two seperate loads that combined are more than 15amps, I'd say
the answer is yes. Clearly the NEC allows using multiple 15 amp
duplex outlets on a 20 amp circuit. If any duplex outlet could not
safely handle 16, 17..., 20 amps combined, there would be a big safety
issue.

This is from memory and I've not kept up w/ changes (but I'd be
surprised if this has changed)...

15A branch circuits. NEC has no limits on number of outlets/circuit;
commonsense prevails. Receptacles may be no more than 15A rated. Any
one cord-and-plug appliance may exceed 12A. If the circuit also
supplies any load fastened in place, that load may not exceed 7-1/2A.

20A branch circuits. Receptacles may be either 15A or 20A. No single
cord-and-plug appliance may exceed 16A. If the circuit also supplies
any load(s) fastened in place, the total load may not exceed 10A.

--

wrote:
On Oct 12, 10:39 am, bud-- wrote:
Mikepier wrote:
On Oct 12, 9:21 am, N8N wrote:
On Oct 12, 8:56 am, wrote:
On Oct 12, 7:56 am, "RBM" wrote:
"RBM" wrote in message
...
"Mikepier" wrote in message
...
Last week, I posted about running 12/2 wire for a kitchen reno. Well
all the circuits are run. I decided on running all 12/2 instead of
12/3 and splitting circuits. Looking ahead to outlets, had a question.
I think I know the answer, but just wanted to confirm.
I ran 4 new circuits for the fridge, microwave/range hood, and counter
outlets. Am I allowed to use regular 15A outlets? For the counter
outlets, I am using regular 15A Decora and GFI's, and for the fridge,
microwave just wanted to use regular outlets, like the kind you can
get a 10Pk for like $5 at Lowes.
15 amp outlets are fine. The refrigerator doesn't need to be GFCI
protected, but all the counter outlets do. A 15 amp GFCI outlet has a 20
amp feed through
Just to clarify. A single 15 amp outlet can't be installed on a 20 amp
dedicated circuit, but a duplex is fine
This is another example of things in the code that don't seem to make
any sense, at least to me. If one can install multiple 15 amp
outlets on a 20 amp circuit, why the restriction on installing just
one?
To make sure the distinction is clear, if you have a 20A circuit and
there is only a single receptacle (not duplex) on the whole circuit it
can't be a 15A one. If it was, the receptacle would not allow the
circuit to be used at 20A. Wouldn't be the worst thing in the world, but
IMHO a reasonable restriction.

And while we're at it, the code also says you can use a 20 amp single
outlet on a 15 amp circuit, but you can't install multiple 20's on a
15 amp circuit.
You can't install any 20A receptacles on a 15A circuit. If you did, you
could plug in devices with a rating of over 15A (has a 20A plug) on the
15A circuit.

And I have to disagree on that one. I can find the code section for
you later, but essentially it comes down to this. The code draws a
distinction between circuits with only one outlet and those with more
than one. With more than one outlet, it says you can't use a 20A
outlet on 15A circuit. But for a circuit with only ONE outlet, the
code says the outlet rating must have a current rating at least equal
to the circuit rating. Hence, a 20A single outlet can be use on a 15
amp circuit.

I agree that it doesn't make any sense to me. But, at the end of the
day, the critical thing is that the circuit breaker be correctly
sized.


Most of the thread uses 210.21. It says what you say above, which I
agree is odd.

A while back I ran across 406.3-A which, IMHO, prohibits almost all 20A
single receptacles on a 15A circuit:
15/20A receptacles "shall be installed only on circuits of the voltage
class and current for which they are rated." This applies only to
"grounding-type" receptacles, so you presumably could put an ungrounded
20A single receptacle as the only receptacle on a 15A circuit (and only
in those cases where you can use an ungrounded receptacle). Oddness
remains, but is greatly limited.

--
bud--

dpb wrote:
Bob wrote:
On Oct 12, 11:07 am, Roy wrote:
...

You'd better re-read the code book. There is a difference with "split"
receptacles in wiring procedure. If you plug two appliances and each
are drawing 15 amp into an unsplit duplex receptacle which is serviced
by one duplex cable, you will blow the circuit breaker. If the split
receptacle is serviced by two different hot leads each appliance will
draw 15 amp and the load is 15 amp on each HALF of the receptacle.
Most code books that I've seen diagram how to do kitchen circuits as
most "counter" circuits require 20 amp breakers.- Hide quoted text -

...
The only code book that counts is the NEC, and it doesn't show
diagrams of how to do kitchen circuits or anything else for that
matter.

As for the question about whether a 15 amp duplex receptacle can
handle two seperate loads that combined are more than 15amps, I'd say
the answer is yes. Clearly the NEC allows using multiple 15 amp
duplex outlets on a 20 amp circuit. If any duplex outlet could not
safely handle 16, 17..., 20 amps combined, there would be a big safety
issue.

This is from memory and I've not kept up w/ changes (but I'd be
surprised if this has changed)...

15A branch circuits. NEC has no limits on number of outlets/circuit;
commonsense prevails. Receptacles may be no more than 15A rated. Any
one cord-and-plug appliance may exceed 12A.

Minor typo.

If the circuit also
supplies any load fastened in place, that load may not exceed 7-1/2A.

20A branch circuits. Receptacles may be either 15A or 20A. No single
cord-and-plug appliance may exceed 16A. If the circuit also supplies
any load(s) fastened in place, the total load may not exceed 10A.


The 12 and 16A limits on 15 and 20A circuits is in 210.21-B-2. A while
ago there were several proposals written to change this section. One of
the common arguments is that UL allows a 15A plug on devices that draw
over 12A (maybe a hair dryer). The same is probably true for 20A plugs.
The code panel response was 'we're right, UL is wrong'. (Another of the
arguments was that the NEC does not normally make unenforceable
restrictions about what happens after the inspector leaves.)

I am confident everyone will watch what they plug in to insure they
don't use a UL listed product whose use does not conform to the NEC.

--
bud--

wrote in message
...
On Oct 12, 7:56 am, "RBM" wrote:
"RBM" wrote in message

...







"Mikepier" wrote in message
...
Last week, I posted about running 12/2 wire for a kitchen reno. Well
all the circuits are run. I decided on running all 12/2 instead of
12/3 and splitting circuits. Looking ahead to outlets, had a question.
I think I know the answer, but just wanted to confirm.

I ran 4 new circuits for the fridge, microwave/range hood, and counter
outlets. Am I allowed to use regular 15A outlets? For the counter
outlets, I am using regular 15A Decora and GFI's, and for the fridge,
microwave just wanted to use regular outlets, like the kind you can
get a 10Pk for like $5 at Lowes.

15 amp outlets are fine. The refrigerator doesn't need to be GFCI
protected, but all the counter outlets do. A 15 amp GFCI outlet has a 20
amp feed through

Just to clarify. A single 15 amp outlet can't be installed on a 20 amp
dedicated circuit, but a duplex is fine



- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

This is another example of things in the code that don't seem to make
any sense, at least to me. If one can install multiple 15 amp
outlets on a 20 amp circuit, why the restriction on installing just
one?

And while we're at it, the code also says you can use a 20 amp single
outlet on a 15 amp circuit, but you can't install multiple 20's on a
15 amp circuit.

Why the big distinction between single versus multiple outlets?

The feed through of a 15 amp outlet is 20 amps. You cannot install a 20 amp
outlet on a 15 amp circuit Nec 210.21 B3

I'd use "spec grade" everywhere on principle. last house I think
receps were done in mid 80s and there were enough of them that didn't
grab a plug with reassuring tightness that I replaced 'em all, every
last one. Downstairs was Decora at the request of SWMBO and big box
only had contractor specials but when I did upstairs I used
traditional duplexes with antique plates & also had found supply house
that was open on Saturdays so got spec grade for those at about the
same price as the el cheapos from the big box. Also found some old
spec grade switches both SPST and 3-way NIB for dirt cheap @
architectural salvage place. go me.

of course if you are only going to be in house 5 years it probably
doesn't matter. In my case the spec grade didn't get me anything but
the satisfaction of a job well done because my plans changed and I no
longer live there. But at least I did it right. nobody'll be
bitching about the quality of my work, unlike my opinion of whoever
did the last go-round (wasn't just the cheap receps that ****ed me
off, there were other issues...)

nate

On Oct 12, 12:37*pm, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
I've found that 12 ga wire won't go into the back stabs of 15 amp
sockets. Which is a good thing. Helps keep people from using heavy
loads on cheap sockets.

The more pricey 15 amp sockets, the screw tightens two pieces of metal
to grab the wire. These, I like. If you're plugging and unplugging
frequently, I'd use the $2 sockets, not the 50 cent sockets.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
*www.lds.org
.

"Mikepier" wrote in message

...
Last week, I posted about running 12/2 wire for a kitchen reno. Well
all the circuits are run. I decided on running all 12/2 instead of
12/3 and splitting circuits. Looking ahead to outlets, had a question.
I think I know the answer, but just wanted to confirm.

I ran 4 new circuits for the fridge, microwave/range hood, and counter
outlets. Am I allowed to use regular 15A outlets? For the counter
outlets, I am using regular 15A Decora and GFI's, and for the fridge,
microwave just wanted to use regular outlets, like the kind you can
get a 10Pk for like $5 at Lowes.

wrote in message
...
On Tue, 12 Oct 2010 07:55:15 -0400, "RBM" wrote:


"Mikepier" wrote in message
...
Last week, I posted about running 12/2 wire for a kitchen reno. Well
all the circuits are run. I decided on running all 12/2 instead of
12/3 and splitting circuits. Looking ahead to outlets, had a question.
I think I know the answer, but just wanted to confirm.

I ran 4 new circuits for the fridge, microwave/range hood, and counter
outlets. Am I allowed to use regular 15A outlets? For the counter
outlets, I am using regular 15A Decora and GFI's, and for the fridge,
microwave just wanted to use regular outlets, like the kind you can
get a 10Pk for like $5 at Lowes.

15 amp outlets are fine. The refrigerator doesn't need to be GFCI
protected,
but all the counter outlets do. A 15 amp GFCI outlet has a 20 amp feed
through


He is NOT using a GFCI on the fridge. Read it again.
NEVER use a GFCI on a fridge or freezer.

I misread that, but just for clarification, the Nec requires GFCI protection
by receptacle location, not by what you're planning to plug into the outlet.
Every receptacle in a garage, or unfinished part of a basement requires GFCI
protection, even if you plan to plug in a fridge or freezer

Should work fine on the cheaper outlets. Please wrap the wire around
the screw, and snug down. Back stab cheap outlets are problem waiting
to happen.

The one "high demaned" place for outlets is hallway in church. Weekly
vacuum cleaner plug in and out.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Mikepier" wrote in message
...

The more pricey 15 amp sockets, the screw tightens two pieces of
metal
to grab the wire. These, I like. If you're plugging and unplugging
frequently, I'd use the $2 sockets, not the 50 cent sockets.

The outlets will be for stuff that will always be plugged in such as
fridge, microwave/range hood, and the outlets inside the wall cabinets
( for the undercabinet lighting).

Do you bang on the steering wheel when stopped at traffic lights?

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


wrote in message
...
On Tue, 12 Oct 2010 07:55:15 -0400, "RBM" wrote:

He is NOT using a GFCI on the fridge. Read it again.
NEVER use a GFCI on a fridge or freezer.

On 10/12/2010 6:29 PM, RBM wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Tue, 12 Oct 2010 07:55:15 -0400, wrote:


wrote in message
...
Last week, I posted about running 12/2 wire for a kitchen reno. Well
all the circuits are run. I decided on running all 12/2 instead of
12/3 and splitting circuits. Looking ahead to outlets, had a question.
I think I know the answer, but just wanted to confirm.

I ran 4 new circuits for the fridge, microwave/range hood, and counter
outlets. Am I allowed to use regular 15A outlets? For the counter
outlets, I am using regular 15A Decora and GFI's, and for the fridge,
microwave just wanted to use regular outlets, like the kind you can
get a 10Pk for like $5 at Lowes.

15 amp outlets are fine. The refrigerator doesn't need to be GFCI
protected,
but all the counter outlets do. A 15 amp GFCI outlet has a 20 amp feed
through


He is NOT using a GFCI on the fridge. Read it again.
NEVER use a GFCI on a fridge or freezer.

I misread that, but just for clarification, the Nec requires GFCI protection
by receptacle location, not by what you're planning to plug into the outlet.
Every receptacle in a garage, or unfinished part of a basement requires GFCI
protection, even if you plan to plug in a fridge or freezer


UNLESS.... there's always an exception.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

"RBM" wrote in message
...

"Mikepier" wrote in message
...
, I am using regular 15A Decora and GFI's, and for the fridge,
microwave just wanted to use regular outlets, like the kind you can
get a 10Pk for like $5 at Lowes.

15 amp outlets are fine. The refrigerator doesn't need to be GFCI
protected, but all the counter outlets do.

The refrigerator should NOT be on a GFI. Let me repeat that, do NOT put the
fridge on a GFI. If it trips, the fridge goes dead and the food spoils.

wrote
outlets, I am using regular 15A Decora and GFI's, and for the fridge,
microwave just wanted to use regular outlets, like the kind you can
get a 10Pk for like $5 at Lowes.

15 amp outlets are fine. The refrigerator doesn't need to be GFCI
protected,
but all the counter outlets do. A 15 amp GFCI outlet has a 20 amp feed
through


He is NOT using a GFCI on the fridge. Read it again.
NEVER use a GFCI on a fridge or freezer.


I read it too fast too. Ooops.

In article , wrote:

And while we're at it, the code also says you can use a 20 amp single
outlet on a 15 amp circuit,

It says no such thing.

In article , wrote:

And I have to disagree on that one. I can find the code section for
you later,

Yeah, you do that. We'll wait.

but essentially it comes down to this. The code draws a
distinction between circuits with only one outlet and those with more
than one. With more than one outlet, it says you can't use a 20A
outlet on 15A circuit.

Wrong. It says you can't use a 20A outlet on a 15A circuit, period. You've
apparently become confused by the provision that you can put 15A outlets on a
20A circuit as long as there's more than one outlet. That's perfectly OK.
Putting a 20A outlet on a 15A circuit is a violation in all cases, without
regard to how many there are.

But for a circuit with only ONE outlet, the
code says the outlet rating must have a current rating at least equal
to the circuit rating.

It says no such thing. It is, for example, a violation to put a 50A outlet on
a 20A circuit.

Hence, a 20A single outlet can be use on a 15
amp circuit.

No, it cannot. Look at Table 210.21(B)(3), where it lists the permissible
receptacle ratings. For a 15-amp circuit, the maximum receptacle rating is
"not over 15".

I agree that it doesn't make any sense to me.

Doesn't make any sense to me either. Of course, that's because you're
completely wrong about the rules.

In article , bud-- wrote:

Most of the thread uses 210.21. It says what you say above, which I
agree is odd.

No, it doesn't. Read Table 210.21(B)(3). The permitted receptacle ratings on a
15A circuit are "not over 15". On a 20A circuit, it's "15 or 20".

A while back I ran across 406.3-A which, IMHO, prohibits almost all 20A
single receptacles on a 15A circuit:

Never mind that. Table 210.21(B)(3) prohibits *all* 20A receptacles, single or
duplex, on a 15A circuit.

15/20A receptacles "shall be installed only on circuits of the voltage
class and current for which they are rated." This applies only to
"grounding-type" receptacles, so you presumably could put an ungrounded
20A single receptacle as the only receptacle on a 15A circuit (and only
in those cases where you can use an ungrounded receptacle). Oddness
remains, but is greatly limited.

No, you can't. 15A circuits may not have receptacles rated over 15A. Period.
There are no exceptions.

On 10/12/2010 3:55 PM N8N spake thus:

Downstairs was Decora at the request of SWMBO and big box
only had contractor specials but when I did upstairs I used
traditional duplexes with antique plates [...]

So you like those "vintage" cover plates too? I've got a big box full of
'em, gleaned mostly from a local recycled-goods store. (I assume you're
talking about the old ivory plastic plates with various molded designs).
So much better looking than those boring new plastic ones.


--
The fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring,
with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags.

- Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com)

wrote in message
...
On Tue, 12 Oct 2010 19:29:45 -0400, "RBM" wrote:

I misread that, but just for clarification, the Nec requires GFCI
protection
by receptacle location, not by what you're planning to plug into the
outlet.
Every receptacle in a garage, or unfinished part of a basement requires
GFCI
protection, even if you plan to plug in a fridge or freezer


Then you run an extension cord from an outlet in the house into the
garage, for the fridge.

None of my garage outlets have any GFCIs The original wiring from the
1920's or 30's was constantly shorting out, especially those hanging
light sockets hung by cotton covered wires which were half bare from
age. And the old turn type bakelite switch with exposed hot wire
screws was sparking quite a but when it was turned, probably because
of years of water leaking down that wall from a bad roof. And most of
the outlets were single ones, not duplex and not one had a ground.
The wiring was a combination of knob and tube, some sort of cloth
covered romex, metal sheathed cable, and a small section of conduit,
which was actually black gas pipe. The fuse box was supposed to have
two 15A plug fuses, but both were 30A fuses, with one cartridge fuse
for a main fuses also being 30A, and a pull down shut off handle with
both sides of the line switched (hot and neutral) and exposed so
anyone could touch it.

No one ever died from it. So why the hell do I need GFCIs now?

As fas as this old wiring, about ten years ago the garage roof
collapsed from snow, and caused the wiring to completely short out
when the wires got torn apart as the roof fell. Those old hanging
lights got crushed, and the fuse box was mangled. Well, I had to
build a new roof, and in the process, I replaced 3 of the 4 walls due
to rot and cracked studs from the roof collapse. I ended up having to
replace the fuse box with a new breaker box having 12 breakers instead
of two fuses. Then I had to rewire with modern romex and new light
fixtures and outlets. Of course all of the old wiring was
grandfathered in, because this was an old garage from the 1920's, it
just had a new roof, and 3 new walls, so I was not required to follow
any electrical codes on an 80 year old garage building like this. I
even put that old turn type bakelite switch back on the wall just for
memories, even though it's not connected.

By the way, a year later I built an addition on to the garage and
destroyed all but 8 feet of the studs of that original wall. So, it's
now a completely new building. except for about 6 or 7 2x4's. But
hey, this is an 80 year old building, so I dont need no stinking GFCI
outlets or other useless modern nonsense. Hell, if the inspectors
were to come, I'll just hammer out the dents on that old fuse box, and
screw it to a piece of plywood, and put that plywood over the top of
my breaker box. This is an 80 year old building (or actually 90 now),
and they did not have breakers or GFCIs in 1920.


Unfortunately, your conclusion that "no one ever died from it" is completely
incorrect. Not only have people died from it, but buildings have burned down
from it. This is exactly why the National Electrical Code has evolved, and
every three years has an upgrade. Whether you agree with it or not, the
intent of the NFPA and it's NEC is to safeguard life and property.

On Oct 13, 1:24*am, David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 10/12/2010 3:55 PM N8N spake thus:

Downstairs was Decora at the request of SWMBO and big box
only had contractor specials but when I did upstairs I used
traditional duplexes with antique plates [...]

So you like those "vintage" cover plates too? I've got a big box full of
'em, gleaned mostly from a local recycled-goods store. (I assume you're
talking about the old ivory plastic plates with various molded designs).
So much better looking than those boring new plastic ones.

Actually the ones I used were the pressed brass ones; they have a nice
patina and also the bevels are super crisp unlike the ones you can buy
today.

I know what you're talking about though, I remember those and would
prefer those to new as well.

nate

On Oct 12, 10:47*pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article , wrote:

And I have to disagree on that one. * I can find the code section for
you later,

Yeah, you do that. We'll wait.

You didn't have to wait long. Here it is. No need to get sarcastic
and snippy.


" 210.21 Outlet Devices.
(B) Receptacles.
(1) Single Receptacle on an Individual Branch Circuit. A single
receptacle installed on an individual branch circuit shall have an
ampere rating not less than that of the branch circuit."


That is clear as day. A 20 amp single receptacle has an ampere rating
greater than that of the circuit, hence it MAY be used. If they
wanted to prohibit using a 20 amp or greater single receptacle on a 15
amp circuit, all they had to do was say the receptacle has to have a
rating EQUAL to the circuit.




but essentially it comes down to this. * The code draws a
distinction between circuits with only one outlet and those with more
than one. * With more than one outlet, it says you can't use a 20A
outlet on 15A circuit.

Wrong. It says you can't use a 20A outlet on a 15A circuit, period. You've
apparently become confused by the provision that you can put 15A outlets on a
20A circuit as long as there's more than one outlet. That's perfectly OK.
Putting a 20A outlet on a 15A circuit is a violation in all cases, without
regard to how many there are.

* But for a circuit with only ONE outlet, the
code says the outlet rating must have a current rating at least equal
to the circuit rating. *

It says no such thing. It is, for example, a violation to put a 50A outlet on
a 20A circuit.

Actually it does say exactly what I said it does, as shown above.
You're the one who's confused, which is OK, but why the attitude?



Hence, a 20A single outlet can be use on a 15
amp circuit.

No, it cannot. Look at Table 210.21(B)(3), where it lists the permissible
receptacle ratings. For a 15-amp circuit, the maximum receptacle rating is
"not over 15".

Yes, let's look at that section. In the same section where it starts
to explain those tables it starts off with:

"210.21(B)(3) Receptacle Ratings. Where connected to a branch circuit
supplying TWO or MORE receptacles or outlets, receptacle ratings shall
conform to the values listed in Table 210.21(B)(3)"

The added emphasis is mine. Since we are talking about using a SINGLE
20 amp outlet on a 15 amp circuit, those tables do NOT apply.



I agree that it doesn't make any sense to me.

Doesn't make any sense to me either. Of course, that's because you're
completely wrong about the rules.

Actually it's quite clear that you're the one who's wrong here. A
simple admission to that and apollogy for getting snippy will suffice.

On Oct 12, 10:36*pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article , wrote:



And while we're at it, the code also says you can use a 20 amp single
outlet on a 15 amp circuit,

It says no such thing.

Actually it does:

" 210.21 Outlet Devices.
(B) Receptacles.
(1) Single Receptacle on an Individual Branch Circuit. A single
receptacle installed on an individual branch circuit shall have an
ampere rating not less than that of the branch circuit."


Since 20amps is greater than 15amps, the 20 amp receptacle may be used
on a circuit where it is the only receptacle.

On Oct 12, 6:41*pm, "RBM" wrote:
wrote in message

...
On Oct 12, 7:56 am, "RBM" wrote:





"RBM" wrote in message

...

"Mikepier" wrote in message
....
Last week, I posted about running 12/2 wire for a kitchen reno. Well
all the circuits are run. I decided on running all 12/2 instead of
12/3 and splitting circuits. Looking ahead to outlets, had a question.

On Oct 13, 6:58*am, "RBM" wrote:
wrote in message

...





On Tue, 12 Oct 2010 19:29:45 -0400, "RBM" wrote:

I misread that, but just for clarification, the Nec requires GFCI
protection
by receptacle location, not by what you're planning to plug into the
outlet.
Every receptacle in a garage, or unfinished part of a basement requires
GFCI
protection, even if you plan to plug in a fridge or freezer

Then you run an extension cord from an outlet in the house into the
garage, for the fridge.

None of my garage outlets have any GFCIs The original wiring from the
1920's or 30's was constantly shorting out, especially those hanging
light sockets hung by cotton covered wires which were half bare from
age. *And the old turn type bakelite switch with exposed hot wire
screws was sparking quite a but when it was turned, probably because
of years of water leaking down that wall from a bad roof. *And most of
the outlets were single ones, not duplex and not one had a ground.
The wiring was a combination of knob and tube, some sort of cloth
covered romex, metal sheathed cable, and a small section of conduit,
which was actually black gas pipe. *The fuse box was supposed to have
two 15A plug fuses, but both were 30A fuses, with one cartridge fuse
for a main fuses also being 30A, and a pull down shut off handle with
both sides of the line switched (hot and neutral) and exposed so
anyone could touch it.

No one ever died from it. *So why the hell do I need GFCIs now?

As fas as this old wiring, about ten years ago the garage roof
collapsed from snow, and caused the wiring to completely short out
when the wires got torn apart as the roof fell. *Those old hanging
lights got crushed, and the fuse box was mangled. *Well, I had to
build a new roof, and in the process, I replaced 3 of the 4 walls due
to rot and cracked studs from the roof collapse. *I ended up having to
replace the fuse box with a new breaker box having 12 breakers instead
of two fuses. *Then I had to rewire with modern romex and new light
fixtures and outlets. *Of course all of the old wiring was
grandfathered in, because this was an old garage from the 1920's, it
just had a new roof, and 3 new walls, so I was not required to follow
any electrical codes on an 80 year old garage building like this. *I
even put that old turn type bakelite switch back on the wall just for
memories, even though it's not connected.

By the way, a year later I built an addition on to the garage and
destroyed all but 8 feet of the studs of that original wall. *So, it's
now a completely new building. except for about 6 or 7 2x4's. *But
hey, this is an 80 year old building, so I dont need no stinking GFCI
outlets or other useless modern nonsense. *Hell, if the inspectors
were to come, I'll just hammer out the dents on that old fuse box, and
screw it to a piece of plywood, and put that plywood over the top of
my breaker box. *This is an 80 year old building (or actually 90 now),
and they did not have breakers or GFCIs in 1920.

Unfortunately, your conclusion that "no one ever died from it" is completely
incorrect. Not only have people died from it, but buildings have burned down
from it. This is exactly why the National Electrical Code has evolved, and
every three years has an upgrade. Whether you agree with it or not, the
intent of the NFPA and it's NEC is to safeguard life and property.



I find interesting the statment that:

"Of course all of the old wiring was
grandfathered in, because this was an old garage from the 1920's, it
just had a new roof, and 3 new walls, so I was not required to follow
any electrical codes on an 80 year old garage building like this."

Say what? The roof collapsed causing lights, wiring, even the fuse
box to be damaged to the point they had to be replaced and you were
not required to follow any codes because it was grandfathered?
Where do you live? Every place I'm aware of you would be required to
not only follow code, but bring the part that is being replaced up to
the current code.

And if, as you claim, you were not required to follow code, then why
the need for this statement:

"Hell, if the inspectors
were to come, I'll just hammer out the dents on that old fuse box,
and
screw it to a piece of plywood, and put that plywood over the top of
my breaker box. "


Your approach to safety seems to be that since nothing bad has
happened so far, that means you should just keep doing the same thing
and not learn from standards and practices that are in place based on
the experience from millions of similar situations over decades.
Kind of like texting while driving and since you haven't had a wreck
or killed anyone so far, it must be OK to keep doing it.

Steve Barker wrote:
On 10/12/2010 6:29 PM, RBM wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Tue, 12 Oct 2010 07:55:15 -0400, wrote:


wrote in message
...

Last week, I posted about running 12/2 wire for a kitchen reno. Well
all the circuits are run. I decided on running all 12/2 instead of
12/3 and splitting circuits. Looking ahead to outlets, had a question.
I think I know the answer, but just wanted to confirm.

I ran 4 new circuits for the fridge, microwave/range hood, and counter
outlets. Am I allowed to use regular 15A outlets? For the counter
outlets, I am using regular 15A Decora and GFI's, and for the fridge,
microwave just wanted to use regular outlets, like the kind you can
get a 10Pk for like $5 at Lowes.

15 amp outlets are fine. The refrigerator doesn't need to be GFCI
protected,
but all the counter outlets do. A 15 amp GFCI outlet has a 20 amp feed
through


He is NOT using a GFCI on the fridge. Read it again.
NEVER use a GFCI on a fridge or freezer.

I misread that, but just for clarification, the Nec requires GFCI
protection
by receptacle location, not by what you're planning to plug into the
outlet.
Every receptacle in a garage, or unfinished part of a basement
requires GFCI
protection, even if you plan to plug in a fridge or freezer


UNLESS.... there's always an exception.


All but one of the exceptions disappeared in the 2008 NEC. (The
remaining one is for alarm panels.)

The NEC panel does not see a problem with refrigeration on GFCI. In
commercial kitchens plug-in refrigeration (15/20A, 120V) is required to
be on GFCIs. The UL allowed leakage is around 0.5mA if I remember right.

--
bud--

On Wed, 13 Oct 2010 02:36:56 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , wrote:

And while we're at it, the code also says you can use a 20 amp single
outlet on a 15 amp circuit,

It says no such thing.
If it is fused at 15 amps it doesn't matter what kind of plug is on
the end (as long as it is rated for at LEAST 15 amps - the circuit is
protected. - code issues - if any- aside.

On Wed, 13 Oct 2010 02:49:40 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , bud-- wrote:

Most of the thread uses 210.21. It says what you say above, which I
agree is odd.

No, it doesn't. Read Table 210.21(B)(3). The permitted receptacle ratings on a
15A circuit are "not over 15". On a 20A circuit, it's "15 or 20".

A while back I ran across 406.3-A which, IMHO, prohibits almost all 20A
single receptacles on a 15A circuit:

Never mind that. Table 210.21(B)(3) prohibits *all* 20A receptacles, single or
duplex, on a 15A circuit.

15/20A receptacles "shall be installed only on circuits of the voltage
class and current for which they are rated." This applies only to
"grounding-type" receptacles, so you presumably could put an ungrounded
20A single receptacle as the only receptacle on a 15A circuit (and only
in those cases where you can use an ungrounded receptacle). Oddness
remains, but is greatly limited.

No, you can't. 15A circuits may not have receptacles rated over 15A. Period.
There are no exceptions.

When you lookk at it logically - from an electrical point of view -
it would make more sense to allow a 20 amp receptacle on a 15 amp
circuit than the other way around. Look at it from this point of view.
A 20 amp receptacle ic designed to handle 20 amp loads - on a 15 amp
circuit it is protected to 15 amps. This is definitely safe as nothing
can operate above its rated or protected current .
A 15 amp receptacle is designed for a 15 amp load and when installed
on a 20 amp circuit is protected at 20 amps and wired with wiring that
is rated at 20 amps. The receptacle is now the week link, and being
somewhat resistive in nature it is succeptible to overload damage if a
load plugged into it draws more than it's rated current - as it is
"protected" to a current higher than its rating.. This definitely has
the possibility of being unsafe as the receptacle can operate above
its rated current.

On Wed, 13 Oct 2010 06:58:03 -0400, "RBM" wrote:


wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 12 Oct 2010 19:29:45 -0400, "RBM" wrote:

I misread that, but just for clarification, the Nec requires GFCI
protection
by receptacle location, not by what you're planning to plug into the
outlet.
Every receptacle in a garage, or unfinished part of a basement requires
GFCI
protection, even if you plan to plug in a fridge or freezer


Then you run an extension cord from an outlet in the house into the
garage, for the fridge.

None of my garage outlets have any GFCIs The original wiring from the
1920's or 30's was constantly shorting out, especially those hanging
light sockets hung by cotton covered wires which were half bare from
age. And the old turn type bakelite switch with exposed hot wire
screws was sparking quite a but when it was turned, probably because
of years of water leaking down that wall from a bad roof. And most of
the outlets were single ones, not duplex and not one had a ground.
The wiring was a combination of knob and tube, some sort of cloth
covered romex, metal sheathed cable, and a small section of conduit,
which was actually black gas pipe. The fuse box was supposed to have
two 15A plug fuses, but both were 30A fuses, with one cartridge fuse
for a main fuses also being 30A, and a pull down shut off handle with
both sides of the line switched (hot and neutral) and exposed so
anyone could touch it.

No one ever died from it. So why the hell do I need GFCIs now?

As fas as this old wiring, about ten years ago the garage roof
collapsed from snow, and caused the wiring to completely short out
when the wires got torn apart as the roof fell. Those old hanging
lights got crushed, and the fuse box was mangled. Well, I had to
build a new roof, and in the process, I replaced 3 of the 4 walls due
to rot and cracked studs from the roof collapse. I ended up having to
replace the fuse box with a new breaker box having 12 breakers instead
of two fuses. Then I had to rewire with modern romex and new light
fixtures and outlets. Of course all of the old wiring was
grandfathered in, because this was an old garage from the 1920's, it
just had a new roof, and 3 new walls, so I was not required to follow
any electrical codes on an 80 year old garage building like this. I
even put that old turn type bakelite switch back on the wall just for
memories, even though it's not connected.

By the way, a year later I built an addition on to the garage and
destroyed all but 8 feet of the studs of that original wall. So, it's
now a completely new building. except for about 6 or 7 2x4's. But
hey, this is an 80 year old building, so I dont need no stinking GFCI
outlets or other useless modern nonsense. Hell, if the inspectors
were to come, I'll just hammer out the dents on that old fuse box, and
screw it to a piece of plywood, and put that plywood over the top of
my breaker box. This is an 80 year old building (or actually 90 now),
and they did not have breakers or GFCIs in 1920.


Unfortunately, your conclusion that "no one ever died from it" is completely
incorrect. Not only have people died from it, but buildings have burned down
from it. This is exactly why the National Electrical Code has evolved, and
every three years has an upgrade. Whether you agree with it or not, the
intent of the NFPA and it's NEC is to safeguard life and property.



I believe he was saying nobody had ever died from HIS terribly
dangerous and inadequate garage wiring.
However, the fact that he allowed the garage to collapse before
repairing the water leaks and rewiring the garage doesn't say an
awfull lot for his analytic capacity or his maintenance regimen!!!!

wrote in message
...
On Oct 12, 6:41 pm, "RBM" wrote:
wrote in message

...
On Oct 12, 7:56 am, "RBM" wrote:





"RBM" wrote in message

...

"Mikepier" wrote in message
...
Last week, I posted about running 12/2 wire for a kitchen reno. Well
all the circuits are run. I decided on running all 12/2 instead of
12/3 and splitting circuits. Looking ahead to outlets, had a
question.
I think I know the answer, but just wanted to confirm.

I ran 4 new circuits for the fridge, microwave/range hood, and
counter
outlets. Am I allowed to use regular 15A outlets? For the counter
outlets, I am using regular 15A Decora and GFI's, and for the fridge,
microwave just wanted to use regular outlets, like the kind you can
get a 10Pk for like $5 at Lowes.

15 amp outlets are fine. The refrigerator doesn't need to be GFCI
protected, but all the counter outlets do. A 15 amp GFCI outlet has a
20
amp feed through

Just to clarify. A single 15 amp outlet can't be installed on a 20 amp
dedicated circuit, but a duplex is fine

- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

This is another example of things in the code that don't seem to make
any sense, at least to me. If one can install multiple 15 amp
outlets on a 20 amp circuit, why the restriction on installing just
one?

And while we're at it, the code also says you can use a 20 amp single
outlet on a 15 amp circuit, but you can't install multiple 20's on a
15 amp circuit.

Why the big distinction between single versus multiple outlets?

The feed through of a 15 amp outlet is 20 amps. You cannot install a 20
amp
outlet on a 15 amp circuit Nec 210.21 B3- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

NEC 210.21(B)(3) starts off by saying that section only applies to
circuits with more than one outlet. We are talking about a SINGLE
outlet. In which case, the following section applies:

" 210.21 Outlet Devices.
(B) Receptacles.
(1) Single Receptacle on an Individual Branch Circuit. A single
receptacle installed on an individual branch circuit shall have an
ampere rating not less than that of the branch circuit."


Since the 20 amp outlet has a rating greater than the 15 amp circuit,
it may be used. Now, I would agree it doesn't make much, but that
is what is says, and hence was my point.

That text is only part of the article, the table clarifies the rest. There
is no ambiguity in the table.

wrote in message
...
On Oct 12, 10:47 pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article
,
wrote:

And I have to disagree on that one. I can find the code section for
you later,

Yeah, you do that. We'll wait.

You didn't have to wait long. Here it is. No need to get sarcastic
and snippy.


" 210.21 Outlet Devices.
(B) Receptacles.
(1) Single Receptacle on an Individual Branch Circuit. A single
receptacle installed on an individual branch circuit shall have an
ampere rating not less than that of the branch circuit."


That is clear as day. A 20 amp single receptacle has an ampere rating
greater than that of the circuit, hence it MAY be used. If they
wanted to prohibit using a 20 amp or greater single receptacle on a 15
amp circuit, all they had to do was say the receptacle has to have a
rating EQUAL to the circuit.




but essentially it comes down to this. The code draws a
distinction between circuits with only one outlet and those with more
than one. With more than one outlet, it says you can't use a 20A
outlet on 15A circuit.

Wrong. It says you can't use a 20A outlet on a 15A circuit, period. You've
apparently become confused by the provision that you can put 15A outlets
on a
20A circuit as long as there's more than one outlet. That's perfectly OK.
Putting a 20A outlet on a 15A circuit is a violation in all cases, without
regard to how many there are.

But for a circuit with only ONE outlet, the
code says the outlet rating must have a current rating at least equal
to the circuit rating.

It says no such thing. It is, for example, a violation to put a 50A outlet
on
a 20A circuit.

Actually it does say exactly what I said it does, as shown above.
You're the one who's confused, which is OK, but why the attitude?



Hence, a 20A single outlet can be use on a 15
amp circuit.

No, it cannot. Look at Table 210.21(B)(3), where it lists the permissible
receptacle ratings. For a 15-amp circuit, the maximum receptacle rating is
"not over 15".

Yes, let's look at that section. In the same section where it starts
to explain those tables it starts off with:

"210.21(B)(3) Receptacle Ratings. Where connected to a branch circuit
supplying TWO or MORE receptacles or outlets, receptacle ratings shall
conform to the values listed in Table 210.21(B)(3)"

The added emphasis is mine. Since we are talking about using a SINGLE
20 amp outlet on a 15 amp circuit, those tables do NOT apply.



I agree that it doesn't make any sense to me.

Doesn't make any sense to me either. Of course, that's because you're
completely wrong about the rules.

Actually it's quite clear that you're the one who's wrong here. A
simple admission to that and apollogy for getting snippy will suffice.


I think the reason for that initial statement in the code, is because a 40
amp receptacle can be wired with a 40 or 50 amp circuit, but the table makes
it perfectly clear that a 20 amp receptacle can't be wired with a 15 amp
circuit

"Steve Barker" wrote in message
...
On 10/13/2010 9:35 AM, bud-- wrote:
Steve Barker wrote:
On 10/12/2010 6:29 PM, RBM wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Tue, 12 Oct 2010 07:55:15 -0400, wrote:


wrote in message
...

Last week, I posted about running 12/2 wire for a kitchen reno. Well
all the circuits are run. I decided on running all 12/2 instead of
12/3 and splitting circuits. Looking ahead to outlets, had a
question.
I think I know the answer, but just wanted to confirm.

I ran 4 new circuits for the fridge, microwave/range hood, and
counter
outlets. Am I allowed to use regular 15A outlets? For the counter
outlets, I am using regular 15A Decora and GFI's, and for the
fridge,
microwave just wanted to use regular outlets, like the kind you can
get a 10Pk for like $5 at Lowes.

15 amp outlets are fine. The refrigerator doesn't need to be GFCI
protected,
but all the counter outlets do. A 15 amp GFCI outlet has a 20 amp
feed
through


He is NOT using a GFCI on the fridge. Read it again.
NEVER use a GFCI on a fridge or freezer.

I misread that, but just for clarification, the Nec requires GFCI
protection
by receptacle location, not by what you're planning to plug into the
outlet.
Every receptacle in a garage, or unfinished part of a basement
requires GFCI
protection, even if you plan to plug in a fridge or freezer


UNLESS.... there's always an exception.


All but one of the exceptions disappeared in the 2008 NEC. (The
remaining one is for alarm panels.)

The NEC panel does not see a problem with refrigeration on GFCI. In
commercial kitchens plug-in refrigeration (15/20A, 120V) is required to
be on GFCIs. The UL allowed leakage is around 0.5mA if I remember right.


I only know what my local AHJ goes by. And that is the 2005 version. They
just switched (last year) from the 1994 version. I'm sure there'll be no
switching again for quite some time. G

Also, i think some of the confusion comes from the interpretation of the
term "single outlet". SINGLE outlet does NOT mean a duplex outlet. And
SINGLE (non gfci) outlets are allowed in basement and garages on a circuit
for sump pumps and refrigerators. Whereas nothing else can be plugged
into them without unplugging the device the outlet was intended for. Has
this been eliminated for the 2008 version?

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

Yes it has. There are no longer any exceptions

wrote in message
...
On Wed, 13 Oct 2010 06:58:03 -0400, "RBM" wrote:

Unfortunately, your conclusion that "no one ever died from it" is
completely
incorrect. Not only have people died from it, but buildings have burned
down
from it. This is exactly why the National Electrical Code has evolved, and
every three years has an upgrade. Whether you agree with it or not, the
intent of the NFPA and it's NEC is to safeguard life and property.

Yes, the "INTENT" is as you said, but many of the rules are totally
stupid. For example, they even put a green ground screw on switches
now. WHY? If the switch is in a metal box, it's grounded by the
screws, but even in a plastic box, that small piece of metal on the
front of the switch is covered by a plastic plate. Those old bakelite
rotary swithces with the exposed HOT WIRE screws WERE dangerous, VERY
dangerous. I would not even think of allowing such a thing. Not only
can children touch them, but when I walk into a dark room fiddling
around for the switch, I could easily touch them. In fact when I had
that switch in my garage, I planned to replace it, but when I moved
onto this property there were a million projects and all had
priorities. Yet, I did apply some electrical tape over those screws
shortly after moving here.

Old wiring was extremely dangerous. Much did not even make common
sense, such as any exposed HOT electricity. Those old knife switches
were insane on 120V AC. They were fine for a 6 or 12 V battery
circuit, but allowing them, or even using them on 120V AC was just
stupid. Yes, people were electricuted and some died, and fires
started. Then in the 1950's and 60's, all wiring was in metal.
Conduit, BX, metal boxes, etc. That was likely the safest wiring ever
made. Now we have plastic coated cable in plastic boxes. Plastic
burns. It's not as safe, but we rely on breakers rather than plug
fuses which could often be oversized. Yet, nothing stops someone from
hooking that #14 wire to a 30A breaker if they know how. It's just
that back when fuses were used, ANYONE could change a fuse, now it
involves the use of tools and some guys wont open any electrical box.

In some ways, wiring has improved, in others, it's gone backwards. I
still believe that the old metal enclosed wiring was superior to what
is used today. But much of that old metal enclosed wiring was
connected to fuses, so we have advanced in the regard of breakers.

I do have GFCIs on all my outdoor outlets, but not those in my garage,
basement, or bathroom. But those are all existing installations and
have not been rewired except for a few outlets that were replaced due
to wearing out or just wanting a grounded one to avoid hunting down
those damn adaptors all the time.

Ground screws come on switches because there are a variety of ways to ground
equipment, and some methods do require a ground screw.
FYI in the 50's and 60's all wiring wasn't in metal. As early as the 20's
wiring was available with or without a metal jacket, just as it is today.
The conductor insulation has and continues to be improved as better
materials become available.

wrote in message
...
On Wed, 13 Oct 2010 02:36:56 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article
,
wrote:

And while we're at it, the code also says you can use a 20 amp single
outlet on a 15 amp circuit,

It says no such thing.
If it is fused at 15 amps it doesn't matter what kind of plug is on
the end (as long as it is rated for at LEAST 15 amps - the circuit is
protected. - code issues - if any- aside.

According to the article it does matter. First of all, in legalese, saying
"not less than" doesn't mean that it can be greater than. It just can't be
less than. Second, the table in the same article shows that a receptacle on
a 15 amp circuit cant' be rated over 15 amps.
Personally, I'd like to know that if I have an appliance that has a 20 amp
plug on it, and I find a 20 amp receptacle that I can plug it into, a 15 amp
breaker isn't limiting the current.

On Oct 13, 5:42*pm, "RBM" wrote:
wrote in message

...
On Oct 12, 10:47 pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:

In article
,
wrote:

And I have to disagree on that one. I can find the code section for
you later,

Yeah, you do that. We'll wait.

You didn't have to wait long. * Here it is. *No need to get sarcastic
and snippy.

" 210.21 Outlet Devices.
(B) Receptacles.
(1) Single Receptacle on an Individual Branch Circuit. A single
receptacle installed on an individual branch circuit shall have an
ampere rating not less than that of the branch circuit."

That is clear as day. *A 20 amp single receptacle has an ampere rating
greater than that of the circuit, hence it MAY be used. *If they
wanted to prohibit using a 20 amp or greater single receptacle on a 15
amp circuit, all they had to do was say the receptacle has to have a
rating EQUAL to the circuit.







but essentially it comes down to this. The code draws a
distinction between circuits with only one outlet and those with more
than one. With more than one outlet, it says you can't use a 20A
outlet on 15A circuit.

Wrong. It says you can't use a 20A outlet on a 15A circuit, period. You've
apparently become confused by the provision that you can put 15A outlets
on a
20A circuit as long as there's more than one outlet. That's perfectly OK.
Putting a 20A outlet on a 15A circuit is a violation in all cases, without
regard to how many there are.

But for a circuit with only ONE outlet, the
code says the outlet rating must have a current rating at least equal
to the circuit rating.

It says no such thing. It is, for example, a violation to put a 50A outlet
on
a 20A circuit.

Actually it does say exactly what I said it does, as shown above.
You're the one who's confused, which is OK, but why the attitude?



Hence, a 20A single outlet can be use on a 15
amp circuit.

No, it cannot. Look at Table 210.21(B)(3), where it lists the permissible
receptacle ratings. For a 15-amp circuit, the maximum receptacle rating is
"not over 15".

Yes, let's look at that section. * In the same section where it starts
to explain those tables it starts off with:

"210.21(B)(3) Receptacle Ratings. *Where connected to a branch circuit
supplying TWO or MORE receptacles or outlets, receptacle ratings shall
conform to the values listed in Table 210.21(B)(3)"

The added emphasis is mine. *Since we are talking about using a SINGLE
20 amp outlet on a 15 amp circuit, those tables do NOT apply.



I agree that it doesn't make any sense to me.

Doesn't make any sense to me either. Of course, that's because you're
completely wrong about the rules.

Actually it's quite clear that you're the one who's wrong here. * A
simple admission to that and apollogy for getting snippy will suffice.

I think the reason for that initial statement in the code, is because a 40
amp receptacle can be wired with a 40 or 50 amp circuit, but the table makes
it perfectly clear that a 20 amp receptacle can't be wired with a 15 amp
circuit- Hide quoted text -



That table is preceeded by the statement, which I provided and is
shown above, that says it applies to circuits with TWO or more
receptacles. If they wanted it to apply to ALL receptacles, including
single outlet ones, they could have simply omitted the word TWO, but
they did not. And the section right before it clearly covers the
case of a SINGLE receptacle and allows a receptacle with a current
rating equal to or greater than the circuit to be used.

It doesn't make a lot of sense to me, but that is what it says and it
allows using a single 20 amp receptacle on a 15 amp circuit.