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15A outlets on 20A circuits
Last week, I posted about running 12/2 wire for a kitchen reno. Well
all the circuits are run. I decided on running all 12/2 instead of 12/3 and splitting circuits. Looking ahead to outlets, had a question. I think I know the answer, but just wanted to confirm. I ran 4 new circuits for the fridge, microwave/range hood, and counter outlets. Am I allowed to use regular 15A outlets? For the counter outlets, I am using regular 15A Decora and GFI's, and for the fridge, microwave just wanted to use regular outlets, like the kind you can get a 10Pk for like $5 at Lowes. |
15A outlets on 20A circuits
"Mikepier" wrote in message ... Last week, I posted about running 12/2 wire for a kitchen reno. Well all the circuits are run. I decided on running all 12/2 instead of 12/3 and splitting circuits. Looking ahead to outlets, had a question. I think I know the answer, but just wanted to confirm. I ran 4 new circuits for the fridge, microwave/range hood, and counter outlets. Am I allowed to use regular 15A outlets? For the counter outlets, I am using regular 15A Decora and GFI's, and for the fridge, microwave just wanted to use regular outlets, like the kind you can get a 10Pk for like $5 at Lowes. 15 amp outlets are fine. The refrigerator doesn't need to be GFCI protected, but all the counter outlets do. A 15 amp GFCI outlet has a 20 amp feed through |
15A outlets on 20A circuits
"RBM" wrote in message ... "Mikepier" wrote in message ... Last week, I posted about running 12/2 wire for a kitchen reno. Well all the circuits are run. I decided on running all 12/2 instead of 12/3 and splitting circuits. Looking ahead to outlets, had a question. I think I know the answer, but just wanted to confirm. I ran 4 new circuits for the fridge, microwave/range hood, and counter outlets. Am I allowed to use regular 15A outlets? For the counter outlets, I am using regular 15A Decora and GFI's, and for the fridge, microwave just wanted to use regular outlets, like the kind you can get a 10Pk for like $5 at Lowes. 15 amp outlets are fine. The refrigerator doesn't need to be GFCI protected, but all the counter outlets do. A 15 amp GFCI outlet has a 20 amp feed through Just to clarify. A single 15 amp outlet can't be installed on a 20 amp dedicated circuit, but a duplex is fine |
15A outlets on 20A circuits
On Oct 12, 7:56*am, "RBM" wrote:
"RBM" wrote in message ... "Mikepier" wrote in message .... Last week, I posted about running 12/2 wire for a kitchen reno. Well all the circuits are run. I decided on running all 12/2 instead of 12/3 and splitting circuits. Looking ahead to outlets, had a question. I think I know the answer, but just wanted to confirm. I ran 4 new circuits for the fridge, microwave/range hood, and counter outlets. Am I allowed to use regular 15A outlets? For the counter outlets, I am using regular 15A Decora and GFI's, and for the fridge, microwave just wanted to use regular outlets, like the kind you can get a 10Pk for like $5 at Lowes. 15 amp outlets are fine. The refrigerator doesn't need to be GFCI protected, but all the counter outlets do. A 15 amp GFCI outlet has a 20 amp feed through Just to clarify. A single 15 amp outlet can't be installed on a 20 amp dedicated circuit, but a duplex is fine - Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - This is another example of things in the code that don't seem to make any sense, at least to me. If one can install multiple 15 amp outlets on a 20 amp circuit, why the restriction on installing just one? And while we're at it, the code also says you can use a 20 amp single outlet on a 15 amp circuit, but you can't install multiple 20's on a 15 amp circuit. Why the big distinction between single versus multiple outlets? |
15A outlets on 20A circuits
On Oct 12, 8:56*am, wrote:
On Oct 12, 7:56*am, "RBM" wrote: "RBM" wrote in message ... "Mikepier" wrote in message .... Last week, I posted about running 12/2 wire for a kitchen reno. Well all the circuits are run. I decided on running all 12/2 instead of 12/3 and splitting circuits. Looking ahead to outlets, had a question. |
15A outlets on 20A circuits
On Oct 12, 9:21*am, N8N wrote:
On Oct 12, 8:56*am, wrote: On Oct 12, 7:56*am, "RBM" wrote: "RBM" wrote in message ... "Mikepier" wrote in message ... Last week, I posted about running 12/2 wire for a kitchen reno. Well all the circuits are run. I decided on running all 12/2 instead of 12/3 and splitting circuits. Looking ahead to outlets, had a question. I think I know the answer, but just wanted to confirm. I ran 4 new circuits for the fridge, microwave/range hood, and counter outlets. Am I allowed to use regular 15A outlets? For the counter outlets, I am using regular 15A Decora and GFI's, and for the fridge, microwave just wanted to use regular outlets, like the kind you can get a 10Pk for like $5 at Lowes. 15 amp outlets are fine. The refrigerator doesn't need to be GFCI protected, but all the counter outlets do. A 15 amp GFCI outlet has a 20 amp feed through Just to clarify. A single 15 amp outlet can't be installed on a 20 amp dedicated circuit, but a duplex is fine - Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - This is another example of things in the code that don't seem to make any sense, at least to me. * If one can install multiple 15 amp outlets on a 20 amp circuit, why the restriction on installing just one? And while we're at it, the code also says you can use a 20 amp single outlet on a 15 amp circuit, but you can't install multiple 20's on a 15 amp circuit. Why the big distinction between single versus multiple outlets? I would ASSume because that if you were drawing, say, 18A on a circuit that only had one 15A single receptacle on it, it'd be a fair bet that it was whatever was plugged into that recep that was drawing all that current. *However, with a *duplex* recep that is not necessarily the case. nate- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - But let's say you have a coffee maker and a toaster plugged into one 15A duplex, and both are being used at the same time. Obviously now you are drawing more than 15A. Can the duplex handle that? Is each outlet rated for 15A, or is the entire device rated for 15A? |
15A outlets on 20A circuits
On 10/12/2010 8:43 AM, Mikepier wrote:
On Oct 12, 9:21 am, wrote: On Oct 12, 8:56 am, wrote: On Oct 12, 7:56 am, wrote: wrote in message ... wrote in message ... Last week, I posted about running 12/2 wire for a kitchen reno. Well all the circuits are run. I decided on running all 12/2 instead of 12/3 and splitting circuits. Looking ahead to outlets, had a question. I think I know the answer, but just wanted to confirm. I ran 4 new circuits for the fridge, microwave/range hood, and counter outlets. Am I allowed to use regular 15A outlets? For the counter outlets, I am using regular 15A Decora and GFI's, and for the fridge, microwave just wanted to use regular outlets, like the kind you can get a 10Pk for like $5 at Lowes. 15 amp outlets are fine. The refrigerator doesn't need to be GFCI protected, but all the counter outlets do. A 15 amp GFCI outlet has a 20 amp feed through Just to clarify. A single 15 amp outlet can't be installed on a 20 amp dedicated circuit, but a duplex is fine - Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - This is another example of things in the code that don't seem to make any sense, at least to me. If one can install multiple 15 amp outlets on a 20 amp circuit, why the restriction on installing just one? And while we're at it, the code also says you can use a 20 amp single outlet on a 15 amp circuit, but you can't install multiple 20's on a 15 amp circuit. Why the big distinction between single versus multiple outlets? I would ASSume because that if you were drawing, say, 18A on a circuit that only had one 15A single receptacle on it, it'd be a fair bet that it was whatever was plugged into that recep that was drawing all that current. However, with a *duplex* recep that is not necessarily the case. nate- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - But let's say you have a coffee maker and a toaster plugged into one 15A duplex, and both are being used at the same time. Obviously now you are drawing more than 15A. Can the duplex handle that? Is each outlet rated for 15A, or is the entire device rated for 15A? they been handling it for years in every house i've ever seen. I've never seen a 20a outlet installed. Ever. -- Steve Barker remove the "not" from my address to email |
15A outlets on 20A circuits
Mikepier wrote:
On Oct 12, 9:21 am, N8N wrote: On Oct 12, 8:56 am, wrote: On Oct 12, 7:56 am, "RBM" wrote: "RBM" wrote in message ... "Mikepier" wrote in message ... Last week, I posted about running 12/2 wire for a kitchen reno. Well all the circuits are run. I decided on running all 12/2 instead of 12/3 and splitting circuits. Looking ahead to outlets, had a question. I think I know the answer, but just wanted to confirm. I ran 4 new circuits for the fridge, microwave/range hood, and counter outlets. Am I allowed to use regular 15A outlets? For the counter outlets, I am using regular 15A Decora and GFI's, and for the fridge, microwave just wanted to use regular outlets, like the kind you can get a 10Pk for like $5 at Lowes. 15 amp outlets are fine. The refrigerator doesn't need to be GFCI protected, but all the counter outlets do. A 15 amp GFCI outlet has a 20 amp feed through Just to clarify. A single 15 amp outlet can't be installed on a 20 amp dedicated circuit, but a duplex is fine This is another example of things in the code that don't seem to make any sense, at least to me. If one can install multiple 15 amp outlets on a 20 amp circuit, why the restriction on installing just one? To make sure the distinction is clear, if you have a 20A circuit and there is only a single receptacle (not duplex) on the whole circuit it can't be a 15A one. If it was, the receptacle would not allow the circuit to be used at 20A. Wouldn't be the worst thing in the world, but IMHO a reasonable restriction. And while we're at it, the code also says you can use a 20 amp single outlet on a 15 amp circuit, but you can't install multiple 20's on a 15 amp circuit. You can't install any 20A receptacles on a 15A circuit. If you did, you could plug in devices with a rating of over 15A (has a 20A plug) on the 15A circuit. Why the big distinction between single versus multiple outlets? I would ASSume because that if you were drawing, say, 18A on a circuit that only had one 15A single receptacle on it, it'd be a fair bet that it was whatever was plugged into that recep that was drawing all that current. However, with a *duplex* recep that is not necessarily the case. Presumably a device with a 15A plug would not draw 18A. A plug-in strip is likely to have a circuit breaker. (You could with an extension cord with 3 outlets.) nate But let's say you have a coffee maker and a toaster plugged into one 15A duplex, and both are being used at the same time. Obviously now you are drawing more than 15A. Can the duplex handle that? Is each outlet rated for 15A, or is the entire device rated for 15A? Each half is rated 15A and the whole device is rated 20A. Also rated 20A wire-through. (As a practical matter, I suspect it would be hard to make a receptacle that would be OK at 15A but not at 20A.) -- bud-- |
15A outlets on 20A circuits
On Oct 12, 7:43*am, Mikepier wrote:
On Oct 12, 9:21*am, N8N wrote: On Oct 12, 8:56*am, wrote: On Oct 12, 7:56*am, "RBM" wrote: "RBM" wrote in message ... "Mikepier" wrote in message ... Last week, I posted about running 12/2 wire for a kitchen reno. Well all the circuits are run. I decided on running all 12/2 instead of 12/3 and splitting circuits. Looking ahead to outlets, had a question. I think I know the answer, but just wanted to confirm. I ran 4 new circuits for the fridge, microwave/range hood, and counter outlets. Am I allowed to use regular 15A outlets? For the counter outlets, I am using regular 15A Decora and GFI's, and for the fridge, microwave just wanted to use regular outlets, like the kind you can get a 10Pk for like $5 at Lowes. 15 amp outlets are fine. The refrigerator doesn't need to be GFCI protected, but all the counter outlets do. A 15 amp GFCI outlet has a 20 amp feed through Just to clarify. A single 15 amp outlet can't be installed on a 20 amp dedicated circuit, but a duplex is fine - Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - This is another example of things in the code that don't seem to make any sense, at least to me. * If one can install multiple 15 amp outlets on a 20 amp circuit, why the restriction on installing just one? And while we're at it, the code also says you can use a 20 amp single outlet on a 15 amp circuit, but you can't install multiple 20's on a 15 amp circuit. Why the big distinction between single versus multiple outlets? I would ASSume because that if you were drawing, say, 18A on a circuit that only had one 15A single receptacle on it, it'd be a fair bet that it was whatever was plugged into that recep that was drawing all that current. *However, with a *duplex* recep that is not necessarily the case. nate- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - But let's say you have a coffee maker and a toaster plugged into one 15A duplex, and both are being used at the same time. Obviously now you are drawing more than 15A. Can the duplex handle that? Is each outlet rated for 15A, or is the entire device rated for 15A? == You'd better re-read the code book. There is a difference with "split" receptacles in wiring procedure. If you plug two appliances and each are drawing 15 amp into an unsplit duplex receptacle which is serviced by one duplex cable, you will blow the circuit breaker. If the split receptacle is serviced by two different hot leads each appliance will draw 15 amp and the load is 15 amp on each HALF of the receptacle. Most code books that I've seen diagram how to do kitchen circuits as most "counter" circuits require 20 amp breakers. |
15A outlets on 20A circuits
Bob wrote:
On Oct 12, 11:07 am, Roy wrote: .... You'd better re-read the code book. There is a difference with "split" receptacles in wiring procedure. If you plug two appliances and each are drawing 15 amp into an unsplit duplex receptacle which is serviced by one duplex cable, you will blow the circuit breaker. If the split receptacle is serviced by two different hot leads each appliance will draw 15 amp and the load is 15 amp on each HALF of the receptacle. Most code books that I've seen diagram how to do kitchen circuits as most "counter" circuits require 20 amp breakers.- Hide quoted text - .... The only code book that counts is the NEC, and it doesn't show diagrams of how to do kitchen circuits or anything else for that matter. As for the question about whether a 15 amp duplex receptacle can handle two seperate loads that combined are more than 15amps, I'd say the answer is yes. Clearly the NEC allows using multiple 15 amp duplex outlets on a 20 amp circuit. If any duplex outlet could not safely handle 16, 17..., 20 amps combined, there would be a big safety issue. This is from memory and I've not kept up w/ changes (but I'd be surprised if this has changed)... 15A branch circuits. NEC has no limits on number of outlets/circuit; commonsense prevails. Receptacles may be no more than 15A rated. Any one cord-and-plug appliance may exceed 12A. If the circuit also supplies any load fastened in place, that load may not exceed 7-1/2A. 20A branch circuits. Receptacles may be either 15A or 20A. No single cord-and-plug appliance may exceed 16A. If the circuit also supplies any load(s) fastened in place, the total load may not exceed 10A. -- |
15A outlets on 20A circuits
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15A outlets on 20A circuits
dpb wrote:
Bob wrote: On Oct 12, 11:07 am, Roy wrote: ... You'd better re-read the code book. There is a difference with "split" receptacles in wiring procedure. If you plug two appliances and each are drawing 15 amp into an unsplit duplex receptacle which is serviced by one duplex cable, you will blow the circuit breaker. If the split receptacle is serviced by two different hot leads each appliance will draw 15 amp and the load is 15 amp on each HALF of the receptacle. Most code books that I've seen diagram how to do kitchen circuits as most "counter" circuits require 20 amp breakers.- Hide quoted text - ... The only code book that counts is the NEC, and it doesn't show diagrams of how to do kitchen circuits or anything else for that matter. As for the question about whether a 15 amp duplex receptacle can handle two seperate loads that combined are more than 15amps, I'd say the answer is yes. Clearly the NEC allows using multiple 15 amp duplex outlets on a 20 amp circuit. If any duplex outlet could not safely handle 16, 17..., 20 amps combined, there would be a big safety issue. This is from memory and I've not kept up w/ changes (but I'd be surprised if this has changed)... 15A branch circuits. NEC has no limits on number of outlets/circuit; commonsense prevails. Receptacles may be no more than 15A rated. Any one cord-and-plug appliance may exceed 12A. Minor typo. If the circuit also supplies any load fastened in place, that load may not exceed 7-1/2A. 20A branch circuits. Receptacles may be either 15A or 20A. No single cord-and-plug appliance may exceed 16A. If the circuit also supplies any load(s) fastened in place, the total load may not exceed 10A. The 12 and 16A limits on 15 and 20A circuits is in 210.21-B-2. A while ago there were several proposals written to change this section. One of the common arguments is that UL allows a 15A plug on devices that draw over 12A (maybe a hair dryer). The same is probably true for 20A plugs. The code panel response was 'we're right, UL is wrong'. (Another of the arguments was that the NEC does not normally make unenforceable restrictions about what happens after the inspector leaves.) I am confident everyone will watch what they plug in to insure they don't use a UL listed product whose use does not conform to the NEC. -- bud-- |
15A outlets on 20A circuits
wrote in message ... On Oct 12, 7:56 am, "RBM" wrote: "RBM" wrote in message ... "Mikepier" wrote in message ... Last week, I posted about running 12/2 wire for a kitchen reno. Well all the circuits are run. I decided on running all 12/2 instead of 12/3 and splitting circuits. Looking ahead to outlets, had a question. I think I know the answer, but just wanted to confirm. I ran 4 new circuits for the fridge, microwave/range hood, and counter outlets. Am I allowed to use regular 15A outlets? For the counter outlets, I am using regular 15A Decora and GFI's, and for the fridge, microwave just wanted to use regular outlets, like the kind you can get a 10Pk for like $5 at Lowes. 15 amp outlets are fine. The refrigerator doesn't need to be GFCI protected, but all the counter outlets do. A 15 amp GFCI outlet has a 20 amp feed through Just to clarify. A single 15 amp outlet can't be installed on a 20 amp dedicated circuit, but a duplex is fine - Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - This is another example of things in the code that don't seem to make any sense, at least to me. If one can install multiple 15 amp outlets on a 20 amp circuit, why the restriction on installing just one? And while we're at it, the code also says you can use a 20 amp single outlet on a 15 amp circuit, but you can't install multiple 20's on a 15 amp circuit. Why the big distinction between single versus multiple outlets? The feed through of a 15 amp outlet is 20 amps. You cannot install a 20 amp outlet on a 15 amp circuit Nec 210.21 B3 |
15A outlets on 20A circuits
I'd use "spec grade" everywhere on principle. last house I think
receps were done in mid 80s and there were enough of them that didn't grab a plug with reassuring tightness that I replaced 'em all, every last one. Downstairs was Decora at the request of SWMBO and big box only had contractor specials but when I did upstairs I used traditional duplexes with antique plates & also had found supply house that was open on Saturdays so got spec grade for those at about the same price as the el cheapos from the big box. Also found some old spec grade switches both SPST and 3-way NIB for dirt cheap @ architectural salvage place. go me. of course if you are only going to be in house 5 years it probably doesn't matter. In my case the spec grade didn't get me anything but the satisfaction of a job well done because my plans changed and I no longer live there. But at least I did it right. nobody'll be bitching about the quality of my work, unlike my opinion of whoever did the last go-round (wasn't just the cheap receps that ****ed me off, there were other issues...) nate On Oct 12, 12:37*pm, "Stormin Mormon" wrote: I've found that 12 ga wire won't go into the back stabs of 15 amp sockets. Which is a good thing. Helps keep people from using heavy loads on cheap sockets. The more pricey 15 amp sockets, the screw tightens two pieces of metal to grab the wire. These, I like. If you're plugging and unplugging frequently, I'd use the $2 sockets, not the 50 cent sockets. -- Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus *www.lds.org . "Mikepier" wrote in message ... Last week, I posted about running 12/2 wire for a kitchen reno. Well all the circuits are run. I decided on running all 12/2 instead of 12/3 and splitting circuits. Looking ahead to outlets, had a question. I think I know the answer, but just wanted to confirm. I ran 4 new circuits for the fridge, microwave/range hood, and counter outlets. Am I allowed to use regular 15A outlets? For the counter outlets, I am using regular 15A Decora and GFI's, and for the fridge, microwave just wanted to use regular outlets, like the kind you can get a 10Pk for like $5 at Lowes. |
15A outlets on 20A circuits
wrote in message ... On Tue, 12 Oct 2010 07:55:15 -0400, "RBM" wrote: "Mikepier" wrote in message ... Last week, I posted about running 12/2 wire for a kitchen reno. Well all the circuits are run. I decided on running all 12/2 instead of 12/3 and splitting circuits. Looking ahead to outlets, had a question. I think I know the answer, but just wanted to confirm. I ran 4 new circuits for the fridge, microwave/range hood, and counter outlets. Am I allowed to use regular 15A outlets? For the counter outlets, I am using regular 15A Decora and GFI's, and for the fridge, microwave just wanted to use regular outlets, like the kind you can get a 10Pk for like $5 at Lowes. 15 amp outlets are fine. The refrigerator doesn't need to be GFCI protected, but all the counter outlets do. A 15 amp GFCI outlet has a 20 amp feed through He is NOT using a GFCI on the fridge. Read it again. NEVER use a GFCI on a fridge or freezer. I misread that, but just for clarification, the Nec requires GFCI protection by receptacle location, not by what you're planning to plug into the outlet. Every receptacle in a garage, or unfinished part of a basement requires GFCI protection, even if you plan to plug in a fridge or freezer |
15A outlets on 20A circuits
Should work fine on the cheaper outlets. Please wrap the wire around
the screw, and snug down. Back stab cheap outlets are problem waiting to happen. The one "high demaned" place for outlets is hallway in church. Weekly vacuum cleaner plug in and out. -- Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org .. "Mikepier" wrote in message ... The more pricey 15 amp sockets, the screw tightens two pieces of metal to grab the wire. These, I like. If you're plugging and unplugging frequently, I'd use the $2 sockets, not the 50 cent sockets. The outlets will be for stuff that will always be plugged in such as fridge, microwave/range hood, and the outlets inside the wall cabinets ( for the undercabinet lighting). |
15A outlets on 20A circuits
Do you bang on the steering wheel when stopped at traffic lights?
-- Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org .. wrote in message ... On Tue, 12 Oct 2010 07:55:15 -0400, "RBM" wrote: He is NOT using a GFCI on the fridge. Read it again. NEVER use a GFCI on a fridge or freezer. |
15A outlets on 20A circuits
On 10/12/2010 6:29 PM, RBM wrote:
wrote in message ... On Tue, 12 Oct 2010 07:55:15 -0400, wrote: wrote in message ... Last week, I posted about running 12/2 wire for a kitchen reno. Well all the circuits are run. I decided on running all 12/2 instead of 12/3 and splitting circuits. Looking ahead to outlets, had a question. I think I know the answer, but just wanted to confirm. I ran 4 new circuits for the fridge, microwave/range hood, and counter outlets. Am I allowed to use regular 15A outlets? For the counter outlets, I am using regular 15A Decora and GFI's, and for the fridge, microwave just wanted to use regular outlets, like the kind you can get a 10Pk for like $5 at Lowes. 15 amp outlets are fine. The refrigerator doesn't need to be GFCI protected, but all the counter outlets do. A 15 amp GFCI outlet has a 20 amp feed through He is NOT using a GFCI on the fridge. Read it again. NEVER use a GFCI on a fridge or freezer. I misread that, but just for clarification, the Nec requires GFCI protection by receptacle location, not by what you're planning to plug into the outlet. Every receptacle in a garage, or unfinished part of a basement requires GFCI protection, even if you plan to plug in a fridge or freezer UNLESS.... there's always an exception. -- Steve Barker remove the "not" from my address to email |
15A outlets on 20A circuits
"RBM" wrote in message ... "Mikepier" wrote in message ... , I am using regular 15A Decora and GFI's, and for the fridge, microwave just wanted to use regular outlets, like the kind you can get a 10Pk for like $5 at Lowes. 15 amp outlets are fine. The refrigerator doesn't need to be GFCI protected, but all the counter outlets do. The refrigerator should NOT be on a GFI. Let me repeat that, do NOT put the fridge on a GFI. If it trips, the fridge goes dead and the food spoils. |
15A outlets on 20A circuits
wrote outlets, I am using regular 15A Decora and GFI's, and for the fridge, microwave just wanted to use regular outlets, like the kind you can get a 10Pk for like $5 at Lowes. 15 amp outlets are fine. The refrigerator doesn't need to be GFCI protected, but all the counter outlets do. A 15 amp GFCI outlet has a 20 amp feed through He is NOT using a GFCI on the fridge. Read it again. NEVER use a GFCI on a fridge or freezer. I read it too fast too. Ooops. |
15A outlets on 20A circuits
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15A outlets on 20A circuits
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15A outlets on 20A circuits
In article , bud-- wrote:
Most of the thread uses 210.21. It says what you say above, which I agree is odd. No, it doesn't. Read Table 210.21(B)(3). The permitted receptacle ratings on a 15A circuit are "not over 15". On a 20A circuit, it's "15 or 20". A while back I ran across 406.3-A which, IMHO, prohibits almost all 20A single receptacles on a 15A circuit: Never mind that. Table 210.21(B)(3) prohibits *all* 20A receptacles, single or duplex, on a 15A circuit. 15/20A receptacles "shall be installed only on circuits of the voltage class and current for which they are rated." This applies only to "grounding-type" receptacles, so you presumably could put an ungrounded 20A single receptacle as the only receptacle on a 15A circuit (and only in those cases where you can use an ungrounded receptacle). Oddness remains, but is greatly limited. No, you can't. 15A circuits may not have receptacles rated over 15A. Period. There are no exceptions. |
15A outlets on 20A circuits
On 10/12/2010 3:55 PM N8N spake thus:
Downstairs was Decora at the request of SWMBO and big box only had contractor specials but when I did upstairs I used traditional duplexes with antique plates [...] So you like those "vintage" cover plates too? I've got a big box full of 'em, gleaned mostly from a local recycled-goods store. (I assume you're talking about the old ivory plastic plates with various molded designs). So much better looking than those boring new plastic ones. -- The fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring, with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags. - Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com) |
15A outlets on 20A circuits
wrote in message ... On Tue, 12 Oct 2010 19:29:45 -0400, "RBM" wrote: I misread that, but just for clarification, the Nec requires GFCI protection by receptacle location, not by what you're planning to plug into the outlet. Every receptacle in a garage, or unfinished part of a basement requires GFCI protection, even if you plan to plug in a fridge or freezer Then you run an extension cord from an outlet in the house into the garage, for the fridge. None of my garage outlets have any GFCIs The original wiring from the 1920's or 30's was constantly shorting out, especially those hanging light sockets hung by cotton covered wires which were half bare from age. And the old turn type bakelite switch with exposed hot wire screws was sparking quite a but when it was turned, probably because of years of water leaking down that wall from a bad roof. And most of the outlets were single ones, not duplex and not one had a ground. The wiring was a combination of knob and tube, some sort of cloth covered romex, metal sheathed cable, and a small section of conduit, which was actually black gas pipe. The fuse box was supposed to have two 15A plug fuses, but both were 30A fuses, with one cartridge fuse for a main fuses also being 30A, and a pull down shut off handle with both sides of the line switched (hot and neutral) and exposed so anyone could touch it. No one ever died from it. So why the hell do I need GFCIs now? As fas as this old wiring, about ten years ago the garage roof collapsed from snow, and caused the wiring to completely short out when the wires got torn apart as the roof fell. Those old hanging lights got crushed, and the fuse box was mangled. Well, I had to build a new roof, and in the process, I replaced 3 of the 4 walls due to rot and cracked studs from the roof collapse. I ended up having to replace the fuse box with a new breaker box having 12 breakers instead of two fuses. Then I had to rewire with modern romex and new light fixtures and outlets. Of course all of the old wiring was grandfathered in, because this was an old garage from the 1920's, it just had a new roof, and 3 new walls, so I was not required to follow any electrical codes on an 80 year old garage building like this. I even put that old turn type bakelite switch back on the wall just for memories, even though it's not connected. By the way, a year later I built an addition on to the garage and destroyed all but 8 feet of the studs of that original wall. So, it's now a completely new building. except for about 6 or 7 2x4's. But hey, this is an 80 year old building, so I dont need no stinking GFCI outlets or other useless modern nonsense. Hell, if the inspectors were to come, I'll just hammer out the dents on that old fuse box, and screw it to a piece of plywood, and put that plywood over the top of my breaker box. This is an 80 year old building (or actually 90 now), and they did not have breakers or GFCIs in 1920. Unfortunately, your conclusion that "no one ever died from it" is completely incorrect. Not only have people died from it, but buildings have burned down from it. This is exactly why the National Electrical Code has evolved, and every three years has an upgrade. Whether you agree with it or not, the intent of the NFPA and it's NEC is to safeguard life and property. |
15A outlets on 20A circuits
On Oct 13, 1:24*am, David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 10/12/2010 3:55 PM N8N spake thus: Downstairs was Decora at the request of SWMBO and big box only had contractor specials but when I did upstairs I used traditional duplexes with antique plates [...] So you like those "vintage" cover plates too? I've got a big box full of 'em, gleaned mostly from a local recycled-goods store. (I assume you're talking about the old ivory plastic plates with various molded designs). So much better looking than those boring new plastic ones. Actually the ones I used were the pressed brass ones; they have a nice patina and also the bevels are super crisp unlike the ones you can buy today. I know what you're talking about though, I remember those and would prefer those to new as well. nate |
15A outlets on 20A circuits
On Oct 12, 10:47*pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article , wrote: And I have to disagree on that one. * I can find the code section for you later, Yeah, you do that. We'll wait. You didn't have to wait long. Here it is. No need to get sarcastic and snippy. " 210.21 Outlet Devices. (B) Receptacles. (1) Single Receptacle on an Individual Branch Circuit. A single receptacle installed on an individual branch circuit shall have an ampere rating not less than that of the branch circuit." That is clear as day. A 20 amp single receptacle has an ampere rating greater than that of the circuit, hence it MAY be used. If they wanted to prohibit using a 20 amp or greater single receptacle on a 15 amp circuit, all they had to do was say the receptacle has to have a rating EQUAL to the circuit. but essentially it comes down to this. * The code draws a distinction between circuits with only one outlet and those with more than one. * With more than one outlet, it says you can't use a 20A outlet on 15A circuit. Wrong. It says you can't use a 20A outlet on a 15A circuit, period. You've apparently become confused by the provision that you can put 15A outlets on a 20A circuit as long as there's more than one outlet. That's perfectly OK. Putting a 20A outlet on a 15A circuit is a violation in all cases, without regard to how many there are. * But for a circuit with only ONE outlet, the code says the outlet rating must have a current rating at least equal to the circuit rating. * It says no such thing. It is, for example, a violation to put a 50A outlet on a 20A circuit. Actually it does say exactly what I said it does, as shown above. You're the one who's confused, which is OK, but why the attitude? Hence, a 20A single outlet can be use on a 15 amp circuit. No, it cannot. Look at Table 210.21(B)(3), where it lists the permissible receptacle ratings. For a 15-amp circuit, the maximum receptacle rating is "not over 15". Yes, let's look at that section. In the same section where it starts to explain those tables it starts off with: "210.21(B)(3) Receptacle Ratings. Where connected to a branch circuit supplying TWO or MORE receptacles or outlets, receptacle ratings shall conform to the values listed in Table 210.21(B)(3)" The added emphasis is mine. Since we are talking about using a SINGLE 20 amp outlet on a 15 amp circuit, those tables do NOT apply. I agree that it doesn't make any sense to me. Doesn't make any sense to me either. Of course, that's because you're completely wrong about the rules. Actually it's quite clear that you're the one who's wrong here. A simple admission to that and apollogy for getting snippy will suffice. |
15A outlets on 20A circuits
On Oct 12, 10:36*pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article , wrote: And while we're at it, the code also says you can use a 20 amp single outlet on a 15 amp circuit, It says no such thing. Actually it does: " 210.21 Outlet Devices. (B) Receptacles. (1) Single Receptacle on an Individual Branch Circuit. A single receptacle installed on an individual branch circuit shall have an ampere rating not less than that of the branch circuit." Since 20amps is greater than 15amps, the 20 amp receptacle may be used on a circuit where it is the only receptacle. |
15A outlets on 20A circuits
On Oct 12, 6:41*pm, "RBM" wrote:
wrote in message ... On Oct 12, 7:56 am, "RBM" wrote: "RBM" wrote in message ... "Mikepier" wrote in message .... Last week, I posted about running 12/2 wire for a kitchen reno. Well all the circuits are run. I decided on running all 12/2 instead of 12/3 and splitting circuits. Looking ahead to outlets, had a question. |
15A outlets on 20A circuits
On Oct 13, 6:58*am, "RBM" wrote:
wrote in message ... On Tue, 12 Oct 2010 19:29:45 -0400, "RBM" wrote: I misread that, but just for clarification, the Nec requires GFCI protection by receptacle location, not by what you're planning to plug into the outlet. Every receptacle in a garage, or unfinished part of a basement requires GFCI protection, even if you plan to plug in a fridge or freezer Then you run an extension cord from an outlet in the house into the garage, for the fridge. None of my garage outlets have any GFCIs The original wiring from the 1920's or 30's was constantly shorting out, especially those hanging light sockets hung by cotton covered wires which were half bare from age. *And the old turn type bakelite switch with exposed hot wire screws was sparking quite a but when it was turned, probably because of years of water leaking down that wall from a bad roof. *And most of the outlets were single ones, not duplex and not one had a ground. The wiring was a combination of knob and tube, some sort of cloth covered romex, metal sheathed cable, and a small section of conduit, which was actually black gas pipe. *The fuse box was supposed to have two 15A plug fuses, but both were 30A fuses, with one cartridge fuse for a main fuses also being 30A, and a pull down shut off handle with both sides of the line switched (hot and neutral) and exposed so anyone could touch it. No one ever died from it. *So why the hell do I need GFCIs now? As fas as this old wiring, about ten years ago the garage roof collapsed from snow, and caused the wiring to completely short out when the wires got torn apart as the roof fell. *Those old hanging lights got crushed, and the fuse box was mangled. *Well, I had to build a new roof, and in the process, I replaced 3 of the 4 walls due to rot and cracked studs from the roof collapse. *I ended up having to replace the fuse box with a new breaker box having 12 breakers instead of two fuses. *Then I had to rewire with modern romex and new light fixtures and outlets. *Of course all of the old wiring was grandfathered in, because this was an old garage from the 1920's, it just had a new roof, and 3 new walls, so I was not required to follow any electrical codes on an 80 year old garage building like this. *I even put that old turn type bakelite switch back on the wall just for memories, even though it's not connected. By the way, a year later I built an addition on to the garage and destroyed all but 8 feet of the studs of that original wall. *So, it's now a completely new building. except for about 6 or 7 2x4's. *But hey, this is an 80 year old building, so I dont need no stinking GFCI outlets or other useless modern nonsense. *Hell, if the inspectors were to come, I'll just hammer out the dents on that old fuse box, and screw it to a piece of plywood, and put that plywood over the top of my breaker box. *This is an 80 year old building (or actually 90 now), and they did not have breakers or GFCIs in 1920. Unfortunately, your conclusion that "no one ever died from it" is completely incorrect. Not only have people died from it, but buildings have burned down from it. This is exactly why the National Electrical Code has evolved, and every three years has an upgrade. Whether you agree with it or not, the intent of the NFPA and it's NEC is to safeguard life and property. I find interesting the statment that: "Of course all of the old wiring was grandfathered in, because this was an old garage from the 1920's, it just had a new roof, and 3 new walls, so I was not required to follow any electrical codes on an 80 year old garage building like this." Say what? The roof collapsed causing lights, wiring, even the fuse box to be damaged to the point they had to be replaced and you were not required to follow any codes because it was grandfathered? Where do you live? Every place I'm aware of you would be required to not only follow code, but bring the part that is being replaced up to the current code. And if, as you claim, you were not required to follow code, then why the need for this statement: "Hell, if the inspectors were to come, I'll just hammer out the dents on that old fuse box, and screw it to a piece of plywood, and put that plywood over the top of my breaker box. " Your approach to safety seems to be that since nothing bad has happened so far, that means you should just keep doing the same thing and not learn from standards and practices that are in place based on the experience from millions of similar situations over decades. Kind of like texting while driving and since you haven't had a wreck or killed anyone so far, it must be OK to keep doing it. |
15A outlets on 20A circuits
Steve Barker wrote:
On 10/12/2010 6:29 PM, RBM wrote: wrote in message ... On Tue, 12 Oct 2010 07:55:15 -0400, wrote: wrote in message ... Last week, I posted about running 12/2 wire for a kitchen reno. Well all the circuits are run. I decided on running all 12/2 instead of 12/3 and splitting circuits. Looking ahead to outlets, had a question. I think I know the answer, but just wanted to confirm. I ran 4 new circuits for the fridge, microwave/range hood, and counter outlets. Am I allowed to use regular 15A outlets? For the counter outlets, I am using regular 15A Decora and GFI's, and for the fridge, microwave just wanted to use regular outlets, like the kind you can get a 10Pk for like $5 at Lowes. 15 amp outlets are fine. The refrigerator doesn't need to be GFCI protected, but all the counter outlets do. A 15 amp GFCI outlet has a 20 amp feed through He is NOT using a GFCI on the fridge. Read it again. NEVER use a GFCI on a fridge or freezer. I misread that, but just for clarification, the Nec requires GFCI protection by receptacle location, not by what you're planning to plug into the outlet. Every receptacle in a garage, or unfinished part of a basement requires GFCI protection, even if you plan to plug in a fridge or freezer UNLESS.... there's always an exception. All but one of the exceptions disappeared in the 2008 NEC. (The remaining one is for alarm panels.) The NEC panel does not see a problem with refrigeration on GFCI. In commercial kitchens plug-in refrigeration (15/20A, 120V) is required to be on GFCIs. The UL allowed leakage is around 0.5mA if I remember right. -- bud-- |
15A outlets on 20A circuits
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15A outlets on 20A circuits
On Wed, 13 Oct 2010 06:58:03 -0400, "RBM" wrote:
wrote in message .. . On Tue, 12 Oct 2010 19:29:45 -0400, "RBM" wrote: I misread that, but just for clarification, the Nec requires GFCI protection by receptacle location, not by what you're planning to plug into the outlet. Every receptacle in a garage, or unfinished part of a basement requires GFCI protection, even if you plan to plug in a fridge or freezer Then you run an extension cord from an outlet in the house into the garage, for the fridge. None of my garage outlets have any GFCIs The original wiring from the 1920's or 30's was constantly shorting out, especially those hanging light sockets hung by cotton covered wires which were half bare from age. And the old turn type bakelite switch with exposed hot wire screws was sparking quite a but when it was turned, probably because of years of water leaking down that wall from a bad roof. And most of the outlets were single ones, not duplex and not one had a ground. The wiring was a combination of knob and tube, some sort of cloth covered romex, metal sheathed cable, and a small section of conduit, which was actually black gas pipe. The fuse box was supposed to have two 15A plug fuses, but both were 30A fuses, with one cartridge fuse for a main fuses also being 30A, and a pull down shut off handle with both sides of the line switched (hot and neutral) and exposed so anyone could touch it. No one ever died from it. So why the hell do I need GFCIs now? As fas as this old wiring, about ten years ago the garage roof collapsed from snow, and caused the wiring to completely short out when the wires got torn apart as the roof fell. Those old hanging lights got crushed, and the fuse box was mangled. Well, I had to build a new roof, and in the process, I replaced 3 of the 4 walls due to rot and cracked studs from the roof collapse. I ended up having to replace the fuse box with a new breaker box having 12 breakers instead of two fuses. Then I had to rewire with modern romex and new light fixtures and outlets. Of course all of the old wiring was grandfathered in, because this was an old garage from the 1920's, it just had a new roof, and 3 new walls, so I was not required to follow any electrical codes on an 80 year old garage building like this. I even put that old turn type bakelite switch back on the wall just for memories, even though it's not connected. By the way, a year later I built an addition on to the garage and destroyed all but 8 feet of the studs of that original wall. So, it's now a completely new building. except for about 6 or 7 2x4's. But hey, this is an 80 year old building, so I dont need no stinking GFCI outlets or other useless modern nonsense. Hell, if the inspectors were to come, I'll just hammer out the dents on that old fuse box, and screw it to a piece of plywood, and put that plywood over the top of my breaker box. This is an 80 year old building (or actually 90 now), and they did not have breakers or GFCIs in 1920. Unfortunately, your conclusion that "no one ever died from it" is completely incorrect. Not only have people died from it, but buildings have burned down from it. This is exactly why the National Electrical Code has evolved, and every three years has an upgrade. Whether you agree with it or not, the intent of the NFPA and it's NEC is to safeguard life and property. I believe he was saying nobody had ever died from HIS terribly dangerous and inadequate garage wiring. However, the fact that he allowed the garage to collapse before repairing the water leaks and rewiring the garage doesn't say an awfull lot for his analytic capacity or his maintenance regimen!!!! |
15A outlets on 20A circuits
wrote in message ... On Oct 12, 6:41 pm, "RBM" wrote: wrote in message ... On Oct 12, 7:56 am, "RBM" wrote: "RBM" wrote in message ... "Mikepier" wrote in message ... Last week, I posted about running 12/2 wire for a kitchen reno. Well all the circuits are run. I decided on running all 12/2 instead of 12/3 and splitting circuits. Looking ahead to outlets, had a question. I think I know the answer, but just wanted to confirm. I ran 4 new circuits for the fridge, microwave/range hood, and counter outlets. Am I allowed to use regular 15A outlets? For the counter outlets, I am using regular 15A Decora and GFI's, and for the fridge, microwave just wanted to use regular outlets, like the kind you can get a 10Pk for like $5 at Lowes. 15 amp outlets are fine. The refrigerator doesn't need to be GFCI protected, but all the counter outlets do. A 15 amp GFCI outlet has a 20 amp feed through Just to clarify. A single 15 amp outlet can't be installed on a 20 amp dedicated circuit, but a duplex is fine - Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - This is another example of things in the code that don't seem to make any sense, at least to me. If one can install multiple 15 amp outlets on a 20 amp circuit, why the restriction on installing just one? And while we're at it, the code also says you can use a 20 amp single outlet on a 15 amp circuit, but you can't install multiple 20's on a 15 amp circuit. Why the big distinction between single versus multiple outlets? The feed through of a 15 amp outlet is 20 amps. You cannot install a 20 amp outlet on a 15 amp circuit Nec 210.21 B3- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - NEC 210.21(B)(3) starts off by saying that section only applies to circuits with more than one outlet. We are talking about a SINGLE outlet. In which case, the following section applies: " 210.21 Outlet Devices. (B) Receptacles. (1) Single Receptacle on an Individual Branch Circuit. A single receptacle installed on an individual branch circuit shall have an ampere rating not less than that of the branch circuit." Since the 20 amp outlet has a rating greater than the 15 amp circuit, it may be used. Now, I would agree it doesn't make much, but that is what is says, and hence was my point. That text is only part of the article, the table clarifies the rest. There is no ambiguity in the table. |
15A outlets on 20A circuits
wrote in message ... On Oct 12, 10:47 pm, (Doug Miller) wrote: In article , wrote: And I have to disagree on that one. I can find the code section for you later, Yeah, you do that. We'll wait. You didn't have to wait long. Here it is. No need to get sarcastic and snippy. " 210.21 Outlet Devices. (B) Receptacles. (1) Single Receptacle on an Individual Branch Circuit. A single receptacle installed on an individual branch circuit shall have an ampere rating not less than that of the branch circuit." That is clear as day. A 20 amp single receptacle has an ampere rating greater than that of the circuit, hence it MAY be used. If they wanted to prohibit using a 20 amp or greater single receptacle on a 15 amp circuit, all they had to do was say the receptacle has to have a rating EQUAL to the circuit. but essentially it comes down to this. The code draws a distinction between circuits with only one outlet and those with more than one. With more than one outlet, it says you can't use a 20A outlet on 15A circuit. Wrong. It says you can't use a 20A outlet on a 15A circuit, period. You've apparently become confused by the provision that you can put 15A outlets on a 20A circuit as long as there's more than one outlet. That's perfectly OK. Putting a 20A outlet on a 15A circuit is a violation in all cases, without regard to how many there are. But for a circuit with only ONE outlet, the code says the outlet rating must have a current rating at least equal to the circuit rating. It says no such thing. It is, for example, a violation to put a 50A outlet on a 20A circuit. Actually it does say exactly what I said it does, as shown above. You're the one who's confused, which is OK, but why the attitude? Hence, a 20A single outlet can be use on a 15 amp circuit. No, it cannot. Look at Table 210.21(B)(3), where it lists the permissible receptacle ratings. For a 15-amp circuit, the maximum receptacle rating is "not over 15". Yes, let's look at that section. In the same section where it starts to explain those tables it starts off with: "210.21(B)(3) Receptacle Ratings. Where connected to a branch circuit supplying TWO or MORE receptacles or outlets, receptacle ratings shall conform to the values listed in Table 210.21(B)(3)" The added emphasis is mine. Since we are talking about using a SINGLE 20 amp outlet on a 15 amp circuit, those tables do NOT apply. I agree that it doesn't make any sense to me. Doesn't make any sense to me either. Of course, that's because you're completely wrong about the rules. Actually it's quite clear that you're the one who's wrong here. A simple admission to that and apollogy for getting snippy will suffice. I think the reason for that initial statement in the code, is because a 40 amp receptacle can be wired with a 40 or 50 amp circuit, but the table makes it perfectly clear that a 20 amp receptacle can't be wired with a 15 amp circuit |
15A outlets on 20A circuits
"Steve Barker" wrote in message ... On 10/13/2010 9:35 AM, bud-- wrote: Steve Barker wrote: On 10/12/2010 6:29 PM, RBM wrote: wrote in message ... On Tue, 12 Oct 2010 07:55:15 -0400, wrote: wrote in message ... Last week, I posted about running 12/2 wire for a kitchen reno. Well all the circuits are run. I decided on running all 12/2 instead of 12/3 and splitting circuits. Looking ahead to outlets, had a question. I think I know the answer, but just wanted to confirm. I ran 4 new circuits for the fridge, microwave/range hood, and counter outlets. Am I allowed to use regular 15A outlets? For the counter outlets, I am using regular 15A Decora and GFI's, and for the fridge, microwave just wanted to use regular outlets, like the kind you can get a 10Pk for like $5 at Lowes. 15 amp outlets are fine. The refrigerator doesn't need to be GFCI protected, but all the counter outlets do. A 15 amp GFCI outlet has a 20 amp feed through He is NOT using a GFCI on the fridge. Read it again. NEVER use a GFCI on a fridge or freezer. I misread that, but just for clarification, the Nec requires GFCI protection by receptacle location, not by what you're planning to plug into the outlet. Every receptacle in a garage, or unfinished part of a basement requires GFCI protection, even if you plan to plug in a fridge or freezer UNLESS.... there's always an exception. All but one of the exceptions disappeared in the 2008 NEC. (The remaining one is for alarm panels.) The NEC panel does not see a problem with refrigeration on GFCI. In commercial kitchens plug-in refrigeration (15/20A, 120V) is required to be on GFCIs. The UL allowed leakage is around 0.5mA if I remember right. I only know what my local AHJ goes by. And that is the 2005 version. They just switched (last year) from the 1994 version. I'm sure there'll be no switching again for quite some time. G Also, i think some of the confusion comes from the interpretation of the term "single outlet". SINGLE outlet does NOT mean a duplex outlet. And SINGLE (non gfci) outlets are allowed in basement and garages on a circuit for sump pumps and refrigerators. Whereas nothing else can be plugged into them without unplugging the device the outlet was intended for. Has this been eliminated for the 2008 version? -- Steve Barker remove the "not" from my address to email Yes it has. There are no longer any exceptions |
15A outlets on 20A circuits
wrote in message ... On Wed, 13 Oct 2010 06:58:03 -0400, "RBM" wrote: Unfortunately, your conclusion that "no one ever died from it" is completely incorrect. Not only have people died from it, but buildings have burned down from it. This is exactly why the National Electrical Code has evolved, and every three years has an upgrade. Whether you agree with it or not, the intent of the NFPA and it's NEC is to safeguard life and property. Yes, the "INTENT" is as you said, but many of the rules are totally stupid. For example, they even put a green ground screw on switches now. WHY? If the switch is in a metal box, it's grounded by the screws, but even in a plastic box, that small piece of metal on the front of the switch is covered by a plastic plate. Those old bakelite rotary swithces with the exposed HOT WIRE screws WERE dangerous, VERY dangerous. I would not even think of allowing such a thing. Not only can children touch them, but when I walk into a dark room fiddling around for the switch, I could easily touch them. In fact when I had that switch in my garage, I planned to replace it, but when I moved onto this property there were a million projects and all had priorities. Yet, I did apply some electrical tape over those screws shortly after moving here. Old wiring was extremely dangerous. Much did not even make common sense, such as any exposed HOT electricity. Those old knife switches were insane on 120V AC. They were fine for a 6 or 12 V battery circuit, but allowing them, or even using them on 120V AC was just stupid. Yes, people were electricuted and some died, and fires started. Then in the 1950's and 60's, all wiring was in metal. Conduit, BX, metal boxes, etc. That was likely the safest wiring ever made. Now we have plastic coated cable in plastic boxes. Plastic burns. It's not as safe, but we rely on breakers rather than plug fuses which could often be oversized. Yet, nothing stops someone from hooking that #14 wire to a 30A breaker if they know how. It's just that back when fuses were used, ANYONE could change a fuse, now it involves the use of tools and some guys wont open any electrical box. In some ways, wiring has improved, in others, it's gone backwards. I still believe that the old metal enclosed wiring was superior to what is used today. But much of that old metal enclosed wiring was connected to fuses, so we have advanced in the regard of breakers. I do have GFCIs on all my outdoor outlets, but not those in my garage, basement, or bathroom. But those are all existing installations and have not been rewired except for a few outlets that were replaced due to wearing out or just wanting a grounded one to avoid hunting down those damn adaptors all the time. Ground screws come on switches because there are a variety of ways to ground equipment, and some methods do require a ground screw. FYI in the 50's and 60's all wiring wasn't in metal. As early as the 20's wiring was available with or without a metal jacket, just as it is today. The conductor insulation has and continues to be improved as better materials become available. |
15A outlets on 20A circuits
wrote in message ... On Wed, 13 Oct 2010 02:36:56 GMT, (Doug Miller) wrote: In article , wrote: And while we're at it, the code also says you can use a 20 amp single outlet on a 15 amp circuit, It says no such thing. If it is fused at 15 amps it doesn't matter what kind of plug is on the end (as long as it is rated for at LEAST 15 amps - the circuit is protected. - code issues - if any- aside. According to the article it does matter. First of all, in legalese, saying "not less than" doesn't mean that it can be greater than. It just can't be less than. Second, the table in the same article shows that a receptacle on a 15 amp circuit cant' be rated over 15 amps. Personally, I'd like to know that if I have an appliance that has a 20 amp plug on it, and I find a 20 amp receptacle that I can plug it into, a 15 amp breaker isn't limiting the current. |
15A outlets on 20A circuits
On Oct 13, 5:42*pm, "RBM" wrote:
wrote in message ... On Oct 12, 10:47 pm, (Doug Miller) wrote: In article , wrote: And I have to disagree on that one. I can find the code section for you later, Yeah, you do that. We'll wait. You didn't have to wait long. * Here it is. *No need to get sarcastic and snippy. " 210.21 Outlet Devices. (B) Receptacles. (1) Single Receptacle on an Individual Branch Circuit. A single receptacle installed on an individual branch circuit shall have an ampere rating not less than that of the branch circuit." That is clear as day. *A 20 amp single receptacle has an ampere rating greater than that of the circuit, hence it MAY be used. *If they wanted to prohibit using a 20 amp or greater single receptacle on a 15 amp circuit, all they had to do was say the receptacle has to have a rating EQUAL to the circuit. but essentially it comes down to this. The code draws a distinction between circuits with only one outlet and those with more than one. With more than one outlet, it says you can't use a 20A outlet on 15A circuit. Wrong. It says you can't use a 20A outlet on a 15A circuit, period. You've apparently become confused by the provision that you can put 15A outlets on a 20A circuit as long as there's more than one outlet. That's perfectly OK. Putting a 20A outlet on a 15A circuit is a violation in all cases, without regard to how many there are. But for a circuit with only ONE outlet, the code says the outlet rating must have a current rating at least equal to the circuit rating. It says no such thing. It is, for example, a violation to put a 50A outlet on a 20A circuit. Actually it does say exactly what I said it does, as shown above. You're the one who's confused, which is OK, but why the attitude? Hence, a 20A single outlet can be use on a 15 amp circuit. No, it cannot. Look at Table 210.21(B)(3), where it lists the permissible receptacle ratings. For a 15-amp circuit, the maximum receptacle rating is "not over 15". Yes, let's look at that section. * In the same section where it starts to explain those tables it starts off with: "210.21(B)(3) Receptacle Ratings. *Where connected to a branch circuit supplying TWO or MORE receptacles or outlets, receptacle ratings shall conform to the values listed in Table 210.21(B)(3)" The added emphasis is mine. *Since we are talking about using a SINGLE 20 amp outlet on a 15 amp circuit, those tables do NOT apply. I agree that it doesn't make any sense to me. Doesn't make any sense to me either. Of course, that's because you're completely wrong about the rules. Actually it's quite clear that you're the one who's wrong here. * A simple admission to that and apollogy for getting snippy will suffice. I think the reason for that initial statement in the code, is because a 40 amp receptacle can be wired with a 40 or 50 amp circuit, but the table makes it perfectly clear that a 20 amp receptacle can't be wired with a 15 amp circuit- Hide quoted text - That table is preceeded by the statement, which I provided and is shown above, that says it applies to circuits with TWO or more receptacles. If they wanted it to apply to ALL receptacles, including single outlet ones, they could have simply omitted the word TWO, but they did not. And the section right before it clearly covers the case of a SINGLE receptacle and allows a receptacle with a current rating equal to or greater than the circuit to be used. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me, but that is what it says and it allows using a single 20 amp receptacle on a 15 amp circuit. |
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