Last week, I posted about running 12/2 wire for a kitchen reno. Well
all the circuits are run. I decided on running all 12/2 instead of
12/3 and splitting circuits. Looking ahead to outlets, had a question.
I think I know the answer, but just wanted to confirm.

I ran 4 new circuits for the fridge, microwave/range hood, and counter
outlets. Am I allowed to use regular 15A outlets? For the counter
outlets, I am using regular 15A Decora and GFI's, and for the fridge,
microwave just wanted to use regular outlets, like the kind you can
get a 10Pk for like $5 at Lowes.

"Mikepier" wrote in message
...
Last week, I posted about running 12/2 wire for a kitchen reno. Well
all the circuits are run. I decided on running all 12/2 instead of
12/3 and splitting circuits. Looking ahead to outlets, had a question.
I think I know the answer, but just wanted to confirm.

I ran 4 new circuits for the fridge, microwave/range hood, and counter
outlets. Am I allowed to use regular 15A outlets? For the counter
outlets, I am using regular 15A Decora and GFI's, and for the fridge,
microwave just wanted to use regular outlets, like the kind you can
get a 10Pk for like $5 at Lowes.

15 amp outlets are fine. The refrigerator doesn't need to be GFCI protected,
but all the counter outlets do. A 15 amp GFCI outlet has a 20 amp feed
through

"RBM" wrote in message
...

"Mikepier" wrote in message
...
Last week, I posted about running 12/2 wire for a kitchen reno. Well
all the circuits are run. I decided on running all 12/2 instead of
12/3 and splitting circuits. Looking ahead to outlets, had a question.
I think I know the answer, but just wanted to confirm.

I ran 4 new circuits for the fridge, microwave/range hood, and counter
outlets. Am I allowed to use regular 15A outlets? For the counter
outlets, I am using regular 15A Decora and GFI's, and for the fridge,
microwave just wanted to use regular outlets, like the kind you can
get a 10Pk for like $5 at Lowes.

15 amp outlets are fine. The refrigerator doesn't need to be GFCI
protected, but all the counter outlets do. A 15 amp GFCI outlet has a 20
amp feed through

Just to clarify. A single 15 amp outlet can't be installed on a 20 amp
dedicated circuit, but a duplex is fine

On Oct 12, 7:56*am, "RBM" wrote:
"RBM" wrote in message

...







"Mikepier" wrote in message
....
Last week, I posted about running 12/2 wire for a kitchen reno. Well
all the circuits are run. I decided on running all 12/2 instead of
12/3 and splitting circuits. Looking ahead to outlets, had a question.
I think I know the answer, but just wanted to confirm.

I ran 4 new circuits for the fridge, microwave/range hood, and counter
outlets. Am I allowed to use regular 15A outlets? For the counter
outlets, I am using regular 15A Decora and GFI's, and for the fridge,
microwave just wanted to use regular outlets, like the kind you can
get a 10Pk for like $5 at Lowes.

15 amp outlets are fine. The refrigerator doesn't need to be GFCI
protected, but all the counter outlets do. A 15 amp GFCI outlet has a 20
amp feed through

Just to clarify. A single 15 amp outlet can't be installed on a 20 amp
dedicated circuit, but a duplex is fine



- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

This is another example of things in the code that don't seem to make
any sense, at least to me. If one can install multiple 15 amp
outlets on a 20 amp circuit, why the restriction on installing just
one?

And while we're at it, the code also says you can use a 20 amp single
outlet on a 15 amp circuit, but you can't install multiple 20's on a
15 amp circuit.

Why the big distinction between single versus multiple outlets?

On Oct 12, 8:56*am, wrote:
On Oct 12, 7:56*am, "RBM" wrote:





"RBM" wrote in message

...

"Mikepier" wrote in message
....
Last week, I posted about running 12/2 wire for a kitchen reno. Well
all the circuits are run. I decided on running all 12/2 instead of
12/3 and splitting circuits. Looking ahead to outlets, had a question.

On Oct 12, 9:21*am, N8N wrote:
On Oct 12, 8:56*am, wrote:





On Oct 12, 7:56*am, "RBM" wrote:

"RBM" wrote in message

...

"Mikepier" wrote in message
...
Last week, I posted about running 12/2 wire for a kitchen reno. Well
all the circuits are run. I decided on running all 12/2 instead of
12/3 and splitting circuits. Looking ahead to outlets, had a question.
I think I know the answer, but just wanted to confirm.

I ran 4 new circuits for the fridge, microwave/range hood, and counter
outlets. Am I allowed to use regular 15A outlets? For the counter
outlets, I am using regular 15A Decora and GFI's, and for the fridge,
microwave just wanted to use regular outlets, like the kind you can
get a 10Pk for like $5 at Lowes.

15 amp outlets are fine. The refrigerator doesn't need to be GFCI
protected, but all the counter outlets do. A 15 amp GFCI outlet has a 20
amp feed through

Just to clarify. A single 15 amp outlet can't be installed on a 20 amp
dedicated circuit, but a duplex is fine

- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

This is another example of things in the code that don't seem to make
any sense, at least to me. * If one can install multiple 15 amp
outlets on a 20 amp circuit, why the restriction on installing just
one?

And while we're at it, the code also says you can use a 20 amp single
outlet on a 15 amp circuit, but you can't install multiple 20's on a
15 amp circuit.

Why the big distinction between single versus multiple outlets?

I would ASSume because that if you were drawing, say, 18A on a circuit
that only had one 15A single receptacle on it, it'd be a fair bet that
it was whatever was plugged into that recep that was drawing all that
current. *However, with a *duplex* recep that is not necessarily the
case.

nate- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

But let's say you have a coffee maker and a toaster plugged into one
15A duplex, and both are being used at the same time. Obviously now
you are drawing more than 15A. Can the duplex handle that? Is each
outlet rated for 15A, or is the entire device rated for 15A?

wrote in message
...
On Oct 12, 7:56 am, "RBM" wrote:
"RBM" wrote in message

...







"Mikepier" wrote in message
...
Last week, I posted about running 12/2 wire for a kitchen reno. Well
all the circuits are run. I decided on running all 12/2 instead of
12/3 and splitting circuits. Looking ahead to outlets, had a question.
I think I know the answer, but just wanted to confirm.

I ran 4 new circuits for the fridge, microwave/range hood, and counter
outlets. Am I allowed to use regular 15A outlets? For the counter
outlets, I am using regular 15A Decora and GFI's, and for the fridge,
microwave just wanted to use regular outlets, like the kind you can
get a 10Pk for like $5 at Lowes.

15 amp outlets are fine. The refrigerator doesn't need to be GFCI
protected, but all the counter outlets do. A 15 amp GFCI outlet has a 20
amp feed through

Just to clarify. A single 15 amp outlet can't be installed on a 20 amp
dedicated circuit, but a duplex is fine



- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

This is another example of things in the code that don't seem to make
any sense, at least to me. If one can install multiple 15 amp
outlets on a 20 amp circuit, why the restriction on installing just
one?

And while we're at it, the code also says you can use a 20 amp single
outlet on a 15 amp circuit, but you can't install multiple 20's on a
15 amp circuit.

Why the big distinction between single versus multiple outlets?

The feed through of a 15 amp outlet is 20 amps. You cannot install a 20 amp
outlet on a 15 amp circuit Nec 210.21 B3

On Oct 12, 6:41*pm, "RBM" wrote:
wrote in message

...
On Oct 12, 7:56 am, "RBM" wrote:





"RBM" wrote in message

...

"Mikepier" wrote in message
....
Last week, I posted about running 12/2 wire for a kitchen reno. Well
all the circuits are run. I decided on running all 12/2 instead of
12/3 and splitting circuits. Looking ahead to outlets, had a question.

On Oct 12, 6:41*pm, "RBM" wrote:
wrote in message

...
On Oct 12, 7:56 am, "RBM" wrote:





"RBM" wrote in message

...

"Mikepier" wrote in message
....
Last week, I posted about running 12/2 wire for a kitchen reno. Well
all the circuits are run. I decided on running all 12/2 instead of
12/3 and splitting circuits. Looking ahead to outlets, had a question.

In article , wrote:

And while we're at it, the code also says you can use a 20 amp single
outlet on a 15 amp circuit,

It says no such thing.

On Oct 12, 10:36*pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article , wrote:



And while we're at it, the code also says you can use a 20 amp single
outlet on a 15 amp circuit,

It says no such thing.

Actually it does:

" 210.21 Outlet Devices.
(B) Receptacles.
(1) Single Receptacle on an Individual Branch Circuit. A single
receptacle installed on an individual branch circuit shall have an
ampere rating not less than that of the branch circuit."


Since 20amps is greater than 15amps, the 20 amp receptacle may be used
on a circuit where it is the only receptacle.

On Wed, 13 Oct 2010 02:36:56 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , wrote:

And while we're at it, the code also says you can use a 20 amp single
outlet on a 15 amp circuit,

It says no such thing.
If it is fused at 15 amps it doesn't matter what kind of plug is on
the end (as long as it is rated for at LEAST 15 amps - the circuit is
protected. - code issues - if any- aside.

"RBM" wrote in message
...

"Mikepier" wrote in message
...
, I am using regular 15A Decora and GFI's, and for the fridge,
microwave just wanted to use regular outlets, like the kind you can
get a 10Pk for like $5 at Lowes.

15 amp outlets are fine. The refrigerator doesn't need to be GFCI
protected, but all the counter outlets do.

The refrigerator should NOT be on a GFI. Let me repeat that, do NOT put the
fridge on a GFI. If it trips, the fridge goes dead and the food spoils.

wrote in message
...
On Tue, 12 Oct 2010 07:55:15 -0400, "RBM" wrote:


"Mikepier" wrote in message
...
Last week, I posted about running 12/2 wire for a kitchen reno. Well
all the circuits are run. I decided on running all 12/2 instead of
12/3 and splitting circuits. Looking ahead to outlets, had a question.
I think I know the answer, but just wanted to confirm.

I ran 4 new circuits for the fridge, microwave/range hood, and counter
outlets. Am I allowed to use regular 15A outlets? For the counter
outlets, I am using regular 15A Decora and GFI's, and for the fridge,
microwave just wanted to use regular outlets, like the kind you can
get a 10Pk for like $5 at Lowes.

15 amp outlets are fine. The refrigerator doesn't need to be GFCI
protected,
but all the counter outlets do. A 15 amp GFCI outlet has a 20 amp feed
through


He is NOT using a GFCI on the fridge. Read it again.
NEVER use a GFCI on a fridge or freezer.

I misread that, but just for clarification, the Nec requires GFCI protection
by receptacle location, not by what you're planning to plug into the outlet.
Every receptacle in a garage, or unfinished part of a basement requires GFCI
protection, even if you plan to plug in a fridge or freezer

On 10/12/2010 6:29 PM, RBM wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Tue, 12 Oct 2010 07:55:15 -0400, wrote:


wrote in message
...
Last week, I posted about running 12/2 wire for a kitchen reno. Well
all the circuits are run. I decided on running all 12/2 instead of
12/3 and splitting circuits. Looking ahead to outlets, had a question.
I think I know the answer, but just wanted to confirm.

I ran 4 new circuits for the fridge, microwave/range hood, and counter
outlets. Am I allowed to use regular 15A outlets? For the counter
outlets, I am using regular 15A Decora and GFI's, and for the fridge,
microwave just wanted to use regular outlets, like the kind you can
get a 10Pk for like $5 at Lowes.

15 amp outlets are fine. The refrigerator doesn't need to be GFCI
protected,
but all the counter outlets do. A 15 amp GFCI outlet has a 20 amp feed
through


He is NOT using a GFCI on the fridge. Read it again.
NEVER use a GFCI on a fridge or freezer.

I misread that, but just for clarification, the Nec requires GFCI protection
by receptacle location, not by what you're planning to plug into the outlet.
Every receptacle in a garage, or unfinished part of a basement requires GFCI
protection, even if you plan to plug in a fridge or freezer


UNLESS.... there's always an exception.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

Steve Barker wrote:
On 10/12/2010 6:29 PM, RBM wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Tue, 12 Oct 2010 07:55:15 -0400, wrote:


wrote in message
...

Last week, I posted about running 12/2 wire for a kitchen reno. Well
all the circuits are run. I decided on running all 12/2 instead of
12/3 and splitting circuits. Looking ahead to outlets, had a question.
I think I know the answer, but just wanted to confirm.

I ran 4 new circuits for the fridge, microwave/range hood, and counter
outlets. Am I allowed to use regular 15A outlets? For the counter
outlets, I am using regular 15A Decora and GFI's, and for the fridge,
microwave just wanted to use regular outlets, like the kind you can
get a 10Pk for like $5 at Lowes.

15 amp outlets are fine. The refrigerator doesn't need to be GFCI
protected,
but all the counter outlets do. A 15 amp GFCI outlet has a 20 amp feed
through


He is NOT using a GFCI on the fridge. Read it again.
NEVER use a GFCI on a fridge or freezer.

I misread that, but just for clarification, the Nec requires GFCI
protection
by receptacle location, not by what you're planning to plug into the
outlet.
Every receptacle in a garage, or unfinished part of a basement
requires GFCI
protection, even if you plan to plug in a fridge or freezer


UNLESS.... there's always an exception.


All but one of the exceptions disappeared in the 2008 NEC. (The
remaining one is for alarm panels.)

The NEC panel does not see a problem with refrigeration on GFCI. In
commercial kitchens plug-in refrigeration (15/20A, 120V) is required to
be on GFCIs. The UL allowed leakage is around 0.5mA if I remember right.

--
bud--

wrote in message
...
On Tue, 12 Oct 2010 19:29:45 -0400, "RBM" wrote:

I misread that, but just for clarification, the Nec requires GFCI
protection
by receptacle location, not by what you're planning to plug into the
outlet.
Every receptacle in a garage, or unfinished part of a basement requires
GFCI
protection, even if you plan to plug in a fridge or freezer


Then you run an extension cord from an outlet in the house into the
garage, for the fridge.

None of my garage outlets have any GFCIs The original wiring from the
1920's or 30's was constantly shorting out, especially those hanging
light sockets hung by cotton covered wires which were half bare from
age. And the old turn type bakelite switch with exposed hot wire
screws was sparking quite a but when it was turned, probably because
of years of water leaking down that wall from a bad roof. And most of
the outlets were single ones, not duplex and not one had a ground.
The wiring was a combination of knob and tube, some sort of cloth
covered romex, metal sheathed cable, and a small section of conduit,
which was actually black gas pipe. The fuse box was supposed to have
two 15A plug fuses, but both were 30A fuses, with one cartridge fuse
for a main fuses also being 30A, and a pull down shut off handle with
both sides of the line switched (hot and neutral) and exposed so
anyone could touch it.

No one ever died from it. So why the hell do I need GFCIs now?

As fas as this old wiring, about ten years ago the garage roof
collapsed from snow, and caused the wiring to completely short out
when the wires got torn apart as the roof fell. Those old hanging
lights got crushed, and the fuse box was mangled. Well, I had to
build a new roof, and in the process, I replaced 3 of the 4 walls due
to rot and cracked studs from the roof collapse. I ended up having to
replace the fuse box with a new breaker box having 12 breakers instead
of two fuses. Then I had to rewire with modern romex and new light
fixtures and outlets. Of course all of the old wiring was
grandfathered in, because this was an old garage from the 1920's, it
just had a new roof, and 3 new walls, so I was not required to follow
any electrical codes on an 80 year old garage building like this. I
even put that old turn type bakelite switch back on the wall just for
memories, even though it's not connected.

By the way, a year later I built an addition on to the garage and
destroyed all but 8 feet of the studs of that original wall. So, it's
now a completely new building. except for about 6 or 7 2x4's. But
hey, this is an 80 year old building, so I dont need no stinking GFCI
outlets or other useless modern nonsense. Hell, if the inspectors
were to come, I'll just hammer out the dents on that old fuse box, and
screw it to a piece of plywood, and put that plywood over the top of
my breaker box. This is an 80 year old building (or actually 90 now),
and they did not have breakers or GFCIs in 1920.


Unfortunately, your conclusion that "no one ever died from it" is completely
incorrect. Not only have people died from it, but buildings have burned down
from it. This is exactly why the National Electrical Code has evolved, and
every three years has an upgrade. Whether you agree with it or not, the
intent of the NFPA and it's NEC is to safeguard life and property.

On Oct 13, 6:58*am, "RBM" wrote:
wrote in message

...





On Tue, 12 Oct 2010 19:29:45 -0400, "RBM" wrote:

I misread that, but just for clarification, the Nec requires GFCI
protection
by receptacle location, not by what you're planning to plug into the
outlet.
Every receptacle in a garage, or unfinished part of a basement requires
GFCI
protection, even if you plan to plug in a fridge or freezer

Then you run an extension cord from an outlet in the house into the
garage, for the fridge.

None of my garage outlets have any GFCIs The original wiring from the
1920's or 30's was constantly shorting out, especially those hanging
light sockets hung by cotton covered wires which were half bare from
age. *And the old turn type bakelite switch with exposed hot wire
screws was sparking quite a but when it was turned, probably because
of years of water leaking down that wall from a bad roof. *And most of
the outlets were single ones, not duplex and not one had a ground.
The wiring was a combination of knob and tube, some sort of cloth
covered romex, metal sheathed cable, and a small section of conduit,
which was actually black gas pipe. *The fuse box was supposed to have
two 15A plug fuses, but both were 30A fuses, with one cartridge fuse
for a main fuses also being 30A, and a pull down shut off handle with
both sides of the line switched (hot and neutral) and exposed so
anyone could touch it.

No one ever died from it. *So why the hell do I need GFCIs now?

As fas as this old wiring, about ten years ago the garage roof
collapsed from snow, and caused the wiring to completely short out
when the wires got torn apart as the roof fell. *Those old hanging
lights got crushed, and the fuse box was mangled. *Well, I had to
build a new roof, and in the process, I replaced 3 of the 4 walls due
to rot and cracked studs from the roof collapse. *I ended up having to
replace the fuse box with a new breaker box having 12 breakers instead
of two fuses. *Then I had to rewire with modern romex and new light
fixtures and outlets. *Of course all of the old wiring was
grandfathered in, because this was an old garage from the 1920's, it
just had a new roof, and 3 new walls, so I was not required to follow
any electrical codes on an 80 year old garage building like this. *I
even put that old turn type bakelite switch back on the wall just for
memories, even though it's not connected.

By the way, a year later I built an addition on to the garage and
destroyed all but 8 feet of the studs of that original wall. *So, it's
now a completely new building. except for about 6 or 7 2x4's. *But
hey, this is an 80 year old building, so I dont need no stinking GFCI
outlets or other useless modern nonsense. *Hell, if the inspectors
were to come, I'll just hammer out the dents on that old fuse box, and
screw it to a piece of plywood, and put that plywood over the top of
my breaker box. *This is an 80 year old building (or actually 90 now),
and they did not have breakers or GFCIs in 1920.

Unfortunately, your conclusion that "no one ever died from it" is completely
incorrect. Not only have people died from it, but buildings have burned down
from it. This is exactly why the National Electrical Code has evolved, and
every three years has an upgrade. Whether you agree with it or not, the
intent of the NFPA and it's NEC is to safeguard life and property.



I find interesting the statment that:

"Of course all of the old wiring was
grandfathered in, because this was an old garage from the 1920's, it
just had a new roof, and 3 new walls, so I was not required to follow
any electrical codes on an 80 year old garage building like this."

Say what? The roof collapsed causing lights, wiring, even the fuse
box to be damaged to the point they had to be replaced and you were
not required to follow any codes because it was grandfathered?
Where do you live? Every place I'm aware of you would be required to
not only follow code, but bring the part that is being replaced up to
the current code.

And if, as you claim, you were not required to follow code, then why
the need for this statement:

"Hell, if the inspectors
were to come, I'll just hammer out the dents on that old fuse box,
and
screw it to a piece of plywood, and put that plywood over the top of
my breaker box. "


Your approach to safety seems to be that since nothing bad has
happened so far, that means you should just keep doing the same thing
and not learn from standards and practices that are in place based on
the experience from millions of similar situations over decades.
Kind of like texting while driving and since you haven't had a wreck
or killed anyone so far, it must be OK to keep doing it.

On Wed, 13 Oct 2010 06:58:03 -0400, "RBM" wrote:


wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 12 Oct 2010 19:29:45 -0400, "RBM" wrote:

I misread that, but just for clarification, the Nec requires GFCI
protection
by receptacle location, not by what you're planning to plug into the
outlet.
Every receptacle in a garage, or unfinished part of a basement requires
GFCI
protection, even if you plan to plug in a fridge or freezer


Then you run an extension cord from an outlet in the house into the
garage, for the fridge.

None of my garage outlets have any GFCIs The original wiring from the
1920's or 30's was constantly shorting out, especially those hanging
light sockets hung by cotton covered wires which were half bare from
age. And the old turn type bakelite switch with exposed hot wire
screws was sparking quite a but when it was turned, probably because
of years of water leaking down that wall from a bad roof. And most of
the outlets were single ones, not duplex and not one had a ground.
The wiring was a combination of knob and tube, some sort of cloth
covered romex, metal sheathed cable, and a small section of conduit,
which was actually black gas pipe. The fuse box was supposed to have
two 15A plug fuses, but both were 30A fuses, with one cartridge fuse
for a main fuses also being 30A, and a pull down shut off handle with
both sides of the line switched (hot and neutral) and exposed so
anyone could touch it.

No one ever died from it. So why the hell do I need GFCIs now?

As fas as this old wiring, about ten years ago the garage roof
collapsed from snow, and caused the wiring to completely short out
when the wires got torn apart as the roof fell. Those old hanging
lights got crushed, and the fuse box was mangled. Well, I had to
build a new roof, and in the process, I replaced 3 of the 4 walls due
to rot and cracked studs from the roof collapse. I ended up having to
replace the fuse box with a new breaker box having 12 breakers instead
of two fuses. Then I had to rewire with modern romex and new light
fixtures and outlets. Of course all of the old wiring was
grandfathered in, because this was an old garage from the 1920's, it
just had a new roof, and 3 new walls, so I was not required to follow
any electrical codes on an 80 year old garage building like this. I
even put that old turn type bakelite switch back on the wall just for
memories, even though it's not connected.

By the way, a year later I built an addition on to the garage and
destroyed all but 8 feet of the studs of that original wall. So, it's
now a completely new building. except for about 6 or 7 2x4's. But
hey, this is an 80 year old building, so I dont need no stinking GFCI
outlets or other useless modern nonsense. Hell, if the inspectors
were to come, I'll just hammer out the dents on that old fuse box, and
screw it to a piece of plywood, and put that plywood over the top of
my breaker box. This is an 80 year old building (or actually 90 now),
and they did not have breakers or GFCIs in 1920.


Unfortunately, your conclusion that "no one ever died from it" is completely
incorrect. Not only have people died from it, but buildings have burned down
from it. This is exactly why the National Electrical Code has evolved, and
every three years has an upgrade. Whether you agree with it or not, the
intent of the NFPA and it's NEC is to safeguard life and property.



I believe he was saying nobody had ever died from HIS terribly
dangerous and inadequate garage wiring.
However, the fact that he allowed the garage to collapse before
repairing the water leaks and rewiring the garage doesn't say an
awfull lot for his analytic capacity or his maintenance regimen!!!!

wrote in message
...
On Wed, 13 Oct 2010 06:58:03 -0400, "RBM" wrote:

Unfortunately, your conclusion that "no one ever died from it" is
completely
incorrect. Not only have people died from it, but buildings have burned
down
from it. This is exactly why the National Electrical Code has evolved, and
every three years has an upgrade. Whether you agree with it or not, the
intent of the NFPA and it's NEC is to safeguard life and property.

Yes, the "INTENT" is as you said, but many of the rules are totally
stupid. For example, they even put a green ground screw on switches
now. WHY? If the switch is in a metal box, it's grounded by the
screws, but even in a plastic box, that small piece of metal on the
front of the switch is covered by a plastic plate. Those old bakelite
rotary swithces with the exposed HOT WIRE screws WERE dangerous, VERY
dangerous. I would not even think of allowing such a thing. Not only
can children touch them, but when I walk into a dark room fiddling
around for the switch, I could easily touch them. In fact when I had
that switch in my garage, I planned to replace it, but when I moved
onto this property there were a million projects and all had
priorities. Yet, I did apply some electrical tape over those screws
shortly after moving here.

Old wiring was extremely dangerous. Much did not even make common
sense, such as any exposed HOT electricity. Those old knife switches
were insane on 120V AC. They were fine for a 6 or 12 V battery
circuit, but allowing them, or even using them on 120V AC was just
stupid. Yes, people were electricuted and some died, and fires
started. Then in the 1950's and 60's, all wiring was in metal.
Conduit, BX, metal boxes, etc. That was likely the safest wiring ever
made. Now we have plastic coated cable in plastic boxes. Plastic
burns. It's not as safe, but we rely on breakers rather than plug
fuses which could often be oversized. Yet, nothing stops someone from
hooking that #14 wire to a 30A breaker if they know how. It's just
that back when fuses were used, ANYONE could change a fuse, now it
involves the use of tools and some guys wont open any electrical box.

In some ways, wiring has improved, in others, it's gone backwards. I
still believe that the old metal enclosed wiring was superior to what
is used today. But much of that old metal enclosed wiring was
connected to fuses, so we have advanced in the regard of breakers.

I do have GFCIs on all my outdoor outlets, but not those in my garage,
basement, or bathroom. But those are all existing installations and
have not been rewired except for a few outlets that were replaced due
to wearing out or just wanting a grounded one to avoid hunting down
those damn adaptors all the time.

Ground screws come on switches because there are a variety of ways to ground
equipment, and some methods do require a ground screw.
FYI in the 50's and 60's all wiring wasn't in metal. As early as the 20's
wiring was available with or without a metal jacket, just as it is today.
The conductor insulation has and continues to be improved as better
materials become available.

On Wed, 13 Oct 2010 16:30:46 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 13 Oct 2010 14:29:30 -0500, wrote:

For example, they even put a green ground screw on switches
now. WHY? If the switch is in a metal box, it's grounded by the
screws, but even in a plastic box, that small piece of metal on the
front of the switch is covered by a plastic plate.

You are only properly grounded in a metal box if the device is listed
as self grounding (a spring or brass clip on the yoke)
In a plastic box, there is no guarantee the plate will be plastic and
you still have metal screws. Before the grounded switches, they only
allowed plastic screws on switch plates but that rule was not followed
much either


..In almost 60 years I've NEVER seen a plastic plate screw.

wrote in message
...
On Wed, 13 Oct 2010 16:30:46 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 13 Oct 2010 14:29:30 -0500, wrote:

For example, they even put a green ground screw on switches
now. WHY? If the switch is in a metal box, it's grounded by the
screws, but even in a plastic box, that small piece of metal on the
front of the switch is covered by a plastic plate.

You are only properly grounded in a metal box if the device is listed
as self grounding (a spring or brass clip on the yoke)
In a plastic box, there is no guarantee the plate will be plastic and
you still have metal screws. Before the grounded switches, they only
allowed plastic screws on switch plates but that rule was not followed
much either


.In almost 60 years I've NEVER seen a plastic plate screw.

They do exist:
http://www.mcfeelys.com/product/0610...chplate-Screws

wrote:
On Wed, 13 Oct 2010 14:29:30 -0500, wrote:

For example, they even put a green ground screw on switches
now. WHY? If the switch is in a metal box, it's grounded by the
screws, but even in a plastic box, that small piece of metal on the
front of the switch is covered by a plastic plate.

You are only properly grounded in a metal box if the device is listed
as self grounding (a spring or brass clip on the yoke)
In a plastic box, there is no guarantee the plate will be plastic and
you still have metal screws. Before the grounded switches, they only
allowed plastic screws on switch plates but that rule was not followed
much either.

Far as I know, a switch doesn't need to be "self grounding". The NEC
just requires metal screws and a grounded metal box. (Receptacles that
use the mounting screws must be "self grounding".)

If I remember right, the argument was that you might have a plastic
plate now, but someone could install a metal plate in the future.

--
bud--

Do you bang on the steering wheel when stopped at traffic lights?

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


wrote in message
...
On Tue, 12 Oct 2010 07:55:15 -0400, "RBM" wrote:

He is NOT using a GFCI on the fridge. Read it again.
NEVER use a GFCI on a fridge or freezer.

wrote
outlets, I am using regular 15A Decora and GFI's, and for the fridge,
microwave just wanted to use regular outlets, like the kind you can
get a 10Pk for like $5 at Lowes.

15 amp outlets are fine. The refrigerator doesn't need to be GFCI
protected,
but all the counter outlets do. A 15 amp GFCI outlet has a 20 amp feed
through


He is NOT using a GFCI on the fridge. Read it again.
NEVER use a GFCI on a fridge or freezer.


I read it too fast too. Ooops.