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#41
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15A outlets on 20A circuits
On Oct 12, 6:41*pm, "RBM" wrote:
wrote in message ... On Oct 12, 7:56 am, "RBM" wrote: "RBM" wrote in message ... "Mikepier" wrote in message .... Last week, I posted about running 12/2 wire for a kitchen reno. Well all the circuits are run. I decided on running all 12/2 instead of 12/3 and splitting circuits. Looking ahead to outlets, had a question. |
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#42
Posted to alt.home.repair
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15A outlets on 20A circuits
On Oct 13, 5:36*pm, "RBM" wrote:
wrote in message ... On Oct 12, 6:41 pm, "RBM" wrote: wrote in message ... On Oct 12, 7:56 am, "RBM" wrote: "RBM" wrote in message ... "Mikepier" wrote in message ... Last week, I posted about running 12/2 wire for a kitchen reno. Well all the circuits are run. I decided on running all 12/2 instead of 12/3 and splitting circuits. Looking ahead to outlets, had a question. I think I know the answer, but just wanted to confirm. I ran 4 new circuits for the fridge, microwave/range hood, and counter outlets. Am I allowed to use regular 15A outlets? For the counter outlets, I am using regular 15A Decora and GFI's, and for the fridge, microwave just wanted to use regular outlets, like the kind you can get a 10Pk for like $5 at Lowes. 15 amp outlets are fine. The refrigerator doesn't need to be GFCI protected, but all the counter outlets do. A 15 amp GFCI outlet has a 20 amp feed through Just to clarify. A single 15 amp outlet can't be installed on a 20 amp dedicated circuit, but a duplex is fine - Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - This is another example of things in the code that don't seem to make any sense, at least to me. If one can install multiple 15 amp outlets on a 20 amp circuit, why the restriction on installing just one? And while we're at it, the code also says you can use a 20 amp single outlet on a 15 amp circuit, but you can't install multiple 20's on a 15 amp circuit. Why the big distinction between single versus multiple outlets? The feed through of a 15 amp outlet is 20 amps. You cannot install a 20 amp outlet on a 15 amp circuit Nec 210.21 B3- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - NEC 210.21(B)(3) starts off by saying that section only applies to circuits with more than one outlet. * We are talking about a SINGLE outlet. * In which case, the following section applies: " 210.21 Outlet Devices. (B) Receptacles. (1) Single Receptacle on an Individual Branch Circuit. A single receptacle installed on an individual branch circuit shall have an ampere rating not less than that of the branch circuit." Since the 20 amp outlet has a rating greater than the 15 amp circuit, it may be used. * *Now, I would agree it doesn't make much, but that is what is says, and hence was my point. That text is only part of the article, the table clarifies the rest. There is no ambiguity in the table.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I agree there is no abiguity in the table. The problem is the table applies to circuits with two or more receptacles and we are talking about a circuit with just one. 210.21 (B) (3) Receptacle Ratings. Where connected to a branch circuit supplying TWO OR MORE receptacles or outlets, receptacle ratings shall conform to the values listed in Table 210.21 (B) (3).... Here;s the section that covers the single receptacle: 21210.21 (B) (1) Single receptacle on an individual branch circuit. A single receptacle installed on an individual branch circuit shall have an ampere rating not less than that of the branch circuit. |
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#43
Posted to alt.home.repair
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15A outlets on 20A circuits
wrote in message ... On Oct 13, 5:42 pm, "RBM" wrote: wrote in message ... On Oct 12, 10:47 pm, (Doug Miller) wrote: In article , wrote: And I have to disagree on that one. I can find the code section for you later, Yeah, you do that. We'll wait. You didn't have to wait long. Here it is. No need to get sarcastic and snippy. " 210.21 Outlet Devices. (B) Receptacles. (1) Single Receptacle on an Individual Branch Circuit. A single receptacle installed on an individual branch circuit shall have an ampere rating not less than that of the branch circuit." That is clear as day. A 20 amp single receptacle has an ampere rating greater than that of the circuit, hence it MAY be used. If they wanted to prohibit using a 20 amp or greater single receptacle on a 15 amp circuit, all they had to do was say the receptacle has to have a rating EQUAL to the circuit. but essentially it comes down to this. The code draws a distinction between circuits with only one outlet and those with more than one. With more than one outlet, it says you can't use a 20A outlet on 15A circuit. Wrong. It says you can't use a 20A outlet on a 15A circuit, period. You've apparently become confused by the provision that you can put 15A outlets on a 20A circuit as long as there's more than one outlet. That's perfectly OK. Putting a 20A outlet on a 15A circuit is a violation in all cases, without regard to how many there are. But for a circuit with only ONE outlet, the code says the outlet rating must have a current rating at least equal to the circuit rating. It says no such thing. It is, for example, a violation to put a 50A outlet on a 20A circuit. Actually it does say exactly what I said it does, as shown above. You're the one who's confused, which is OK, but why the attitude? Hence, a 20A single outlet can be use on a 15 amp circuit. No, it cannot. Look at Table 210.21(B)(3), where it lists the permissible receptacle ratings. For a 15-amp circuit, the maximum receptacle rating is "not over 15". Yes, let's look at that section. In the same section where it starts to explain those tables it starts off with: "210.21(B)(3) Receptacle Ratings. Where connected to a branch circuit supplying TWO or MORE receptacles or outlets, receptacle ratings shall conform to the values listed in Table 210.21(B)(3)" The added emphasis is mine. Since we are talking about using a SINGLE 20 amp outlet on a 15 amp circuit, those tables do NOT apply. I agree that it doesn't make any sense to me. Doesn't make any sense to me either. Of course, that's because you're completely wrong about the rules. Actually it's quite clear that you're the one who's wrong here. A simple admission to that and apollogy for getting snippy will suffice. I think the reason for that initial statement in the code, is because a 40 amp receptacle can be wired with a 40 or 50 amp circuit, but the table makes it perfectly clear that a 20 amp receptacle can't be wired with a 15 amp circuit- Hide quoted text - That table is preceeded by the statement, which I provided and is shown above, that says it applies to circuits with TWO or more receptacles. If they wanted it to apply to ALL receptacles, including single outlet ones, they could have simply omitted the word TWO, but they did not. And the section right before it clearly covers the case of a SINGLE receptacle and allows a receptacle with a current rating equal to or greater than the circuit to be used. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me, but that is what it says and it allows using a single 20 amp receptacle on a 15 amp circuit. I see what you're reading, but there is no text that says any receptacle, single or duplex, can have a rating higher than the circuit feeding it. |
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#44
Posted to alt.home.repair
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15A outlets on 20A circuits
wrote in message ... On Oct 12, 6:41 pm, "RBM" wrote: wrote in message ... On Oct 12, 7:56 am, "RBM" wrote: "RBM" wrote in message ... "Mikepier" wrote in message ... Last week, I posted about running 12/2 wire for a kitchen reno. Well all the circuits are run. I decided on running all 12/2 instead of 12/3 and splitting circuits. Looking ahead to outlets, had a question. I think I know the answer, but just wanted to confirm. I ran 4 new circuits for the fridge, microwave/range hood, and counter outlets. Am I allowed to use regular 15A outlets? For the counter outlets, I am using regular 15A Decora and GFI's, and for the fridge, microwave just wanted to use regular outlets, like the kind you can get a 10Pk for like $5 at Lowes. 15 amp outlets are fine. The refrigerator doesn't need to be GFCI protected, but all the counter outlets do. A 15 amp GFCI outlet has a 20 amp feed through Just to clarify. A single 15 amp outlet can't be installed on a 20 amp dedicated circuit, but a duplex is fine - Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - This is another example of things in the code that don't seem to make any sense, at least to me. If one can install multiple 15 amp outlets on a 20 amp circuit, why the restriction on installing just one? And while we're at it, the code also says you can use a 20 amp single outlet on a 15 amp circuit, but you can't install multiple 20's on a 15 amp circuit. Why the big distinction between single versus multiple outlets? The feed through of a 15 amp outlet is 20 amps. You cannot install a 20 amp outlet on a 15 amp circuit Nec 210.21 B3- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Again, here's what the section you are referring to says. From 2008 NEC, 210.21 (B) (3) Receptacle Ratings. Where connected to a branch circuit supplying TWO OR MORE receptacles or outlets, receptacle ratings shall conform to the values listed in Table 210.21 (B) (3).... The added emphasis is mine. We are talking about a SINGLE receptacle, so that section and it's table do not apply. Section 210.21 (B) (1), which preceeds it, specifically addresses the case of a single receptacle. 21210.21 (B) (1) Single receptacle on an individual branch circuit. A single receptacle installed on an individual branch circuit shall have an ampere rating not less than that of the branch circuit. Do you not agree that a single 20 amp outlet on a 15 amp circuit meets that requirement? Note that I'm not saying it makes sense to me, but it's clearly what it says. No, I respect your logic, but I think that the Nec is written in an often incoherent legalese, which is why I use the handbook. It says that it can't be less than, but it doesn't say that it can be greater than. I think from a practical perspective, one should be able to expect a 20 amp receptacle to be fed by a 20 amp circuit |
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#47
Posted to alt.home.repair
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15A outlets on 20A circuits
On Wed, 13 Oct 2010 16:30:46 -0400, wrote:
On Wed, 13 Oct 2010 14:29:30 -0500, wrote: For example, they even put a green ground screw on switches now. WHY? If the switch is in a metal box, it's grounded by the screws, but even in a plastic box, that small piece of metal on the front of the switch is covered by a plastic plate. You are only properly grounded in a metal box if the device is listed as self grounding (a spring or brass clip on the yoke) In a plastic box, there is no guarantee the plate will be plastic and you still have metal screws. Before the grounded switches, they only allowed plastic screws on switch plates but that rule was not followed much either ..In almost 60 years I've NEVER seen a plastic plate screw. |
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#48
Posted to alt.home.repair
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15A outlets on 20A circuits
On Wed, 13 Oct 2010 18:41:13 -0400, "RBM" wrote:
wrote in message .. . On Wed, 13 Oct 2010 02:36:56 GMT, (Doug Miller) wrote: In article , wrote: And while we're at it, the code also says you can use a 20 amp single outlet on a 15 amp circuit, It says no such thing. If it is fused at 15 amps it doesn't matter what kind of plug is on the end (as long as it is rated for at LEAST 15 amps - the circuit is protected. - code issues - if any- aside. According to the article it does matter. First of all, in legalese, saying "not less than" doesn't mean that it can be greater than. It just can't be less than. Second, the table in the same article shows that a receptacle on a 15 amp circuit cant' be rated over 15 amps. Personally, I'd like to know that if I have an appliance that has a 20 amp plug on it, and I find a 20 amp receptacle that I can plug it into, a 15 amp breaker isn't limiting the current. You don't understand english very well - particularly when boolian logic is involved. "not less than" means exactly that. Equal to or greater than equals not less than. PERIOD. And a 15 amp breaker does not LIMIT current - it interrupts current when current excedes the limit. Limitting current would controll the current by reducing voltage to hold the current to the maximum limit. A 20 amp 115/125 volt receptacle also accepts 15 amp plugs perfectly. |
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#49
Posted to alt.home.repair
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15A outlets on 20A circuits
wrote in message ... On Wed, 13 Oct 2010 16:30:46 -0400, wrote: On Wed, 13 Oct 2010 14:29:30 -0500, wrote: For example, they even put a green ground screw on switches now. WHY? If the switch is in a metal box, it's grounded by the screws, but even in a plastic box, that small piece of metal on the front of the switch is covered by a plastic plate. You are only properly grounded in a metal box if the device is listed as self grounding (a spring or brass clip on the yoke) In a plastic box, there is no guarantee the plate will be plastic and you still have metal screws. Before the grounded switches, they only allowed plastic screws on switch plates but that rule was not followed much either .In almost 60 years I've NEVER seen a plastic plate screw. They do exist: http://www.mcfeelys.com/product/0610...chplate-Screws |
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#51
Posted to alt.home.repair
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15A outlets on 20A circuits
On Wed, 13 Oct 2010 20:02:46 -0400, "RBM" wrote:
wrote in message ... On Oct 12, 6:41 pm, "RBM" wrote: wrote in message ... On Oct 12, 7:56 am, "RBM" wrote: "RBM" wrote in message ... "Mikepier" wrote in message ... Last week, I posted about running 12/2 wire for a kitchen reno. Well all the circuits are run. I decided on running all 12/2 instead of 12/3 and splitting circuits. Looking ahead to outlets, had a question. I think I know the answer, but just wanted to confirm. I ran 4 new circuits for the fridge, microwave/range hood, and counter outlets. Am I allowed to use regular 15A outlets? For the counter outlets, I am using regular 15A Decora and GFI's, and for the fridge, microwave just wanted to use regular outlets, like the kind you can get a 10Pk for like $5 at Lowes. 15 amp outlets are fine. The refrigerator doesn't need to be GFCI protected, but all the counter outlets do. A 15 amp GFCI outlet has a 20 amp feed through Just to clarify. A single 15 amp outlet can't be installed on a 20 amp dedicated circuit, but a duplex is fine - Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - This is another example of things in the code that don't seem to make any sense, at least to me. If one can install multiple 15 amp outlets on a 20 amp circuit, why the restriction on installing just one? And while we're at it, the code also says you can use a 20 amp single outlet on a 15 amp circuit, but you can't install multiple 20's on a 15 amp circuit. Why the big distinction between single versus multiple outlets? The feed through of a 15 amp outlet is 20 amps. You cannot install a 20 amp outlet on a 15 amp circuit Nec 210.21 B3- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Again, here's what the section you are referring to says. From 2008 NEC, 210.21 (B) (3) Receptacle Ratings. Where connected to a branch circuit supplying TWO OR MORE receptacles or outlets, receptacle ratings shall conform to the values listed in Table 210.21 (B) (3).... The added emphasis is mine. We are talking about a SINGLE receptacle, so that section and it's table do not apply. Section 210.21 (B) (1), which preceeds it, specifically addresses the case of a single receptacle. 21210.21 (B) (1) Single receptacle on an individual branch circuit. A single receptacle installed on an individual branch circuit shall have an ampere rating not less than that of the branch circuit. Do you not agree that a single 20 amp outlet on a 15 amp circuit meets that requirement? Note that I'm not saying it makes sense to me, but it's clearly what it says. No, I respect your logic, but I think that the Nec is written in an often incoherent legalese, which is why I use the handbook. It says that it can't be less than, but it doesn't say that it can be greater than. I think from a practical perspective, one should be able to expect a 20 amp receptacle to be fed by a 20 amp circuit Not reasonable. You have a multibranch 15 amp circuit with 4 duplex 15 amp receptacles. You think it is only reasonable to expect to be able to plug 8 15 amp devices into the circuit?? Give your head a shake. |
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#52
Posted to alt.home.repair
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15A outlets on 20A circuits
wrote in message news  On Wed, 13 Oct 2010 20:02:46 -0400, "RBM" wrote: wrote in message ... On Oct 12, 6:41 pm, "RBM" wrote: wrote in message ... On Oct 12, 7:56 am, "RBM" wrote: "RBM" wrote in message ... "Mikepier" wrote in message ... Last week, I posted about running 12/2 wire for a kitchen reno. Well all the circuits are run. I decided on running all 12/2 instead of 12/3 and splitting circuits. Looking ahead to outlets, had a question. I think I know the answer, but just wanted to confirm. I ran 4 new circuits for the fridge, microwave/range hood, and counter outlets. Am I allowed to use regular 15A outlets? For the counter outlets, I am using regular 15A Decora and GFI's, and for the fridge, microwave just wanted to use regular outlets, like the kind you can get a 10Pk for like $5 at Lowes. 15 amp outlets are fine. The refrigerator doesn't need to be GFCI protected, but all the counter outlets do. A 15 amp GFCI outlet has a 20 amp feed through Just to clarify. A single 15 amp outlet can't be installed on a 20 amp dedicated circuit, but a duplex is fine - Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - This is another example of things in the code that don't seem to make any sense, at least to me. If one can install multiple 15 amp outlets on a 20 amp circuit, why the restriction on installing just one? And while we're at it, the code also says you can use a 20 amp single outlet on a 15 amp circuit, but you can't install multiple 20's on a 15 amp circuit. Why the big distinction between single versus multiple outlets? The feed through of a 15 amp outlet is 20 amps. You cannot install a 20 amp outlet on a 15 amp circuit Nec 210.21 B3- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Again, here's what the section you are referring to says. From 2008 NEC, 210.21 (B) (3) Receptacle Ratings. Where connected to a branch circuit supplying TWO OR MORE receptacles or outlets, receptacle ratings shall conform to the values listed in Table 210.21 (B) (3).... The added emphasis is mine. We are talking about a SINGLE receptacle, so that section and it's table do not apply. Section 210.21 (B) (1), which preceeds it, specifically addresses the case of a single receptacle. 21210.21 (B) (1) Single receptacle on an individual branch circuit. A single receptacle installed on an individual branch circuit shall have an ampere rating not less than that of the branch circuit. Do you not agree that a single 20 amp outlet on a 15 amp circuit meets that requirement? Note that I'm not saying it makes sense to me, but it's clearly what it says. No, I respect your logic, but I think that the Nec is written in an often incoherent legalese, which is why I use the handbook. It says that it can't be less than, but it doesn't say that it can be greater than. I think from a practical perspective, one should be able to expect a 20 amp receptacle to be fed by a 20 amp circuit Not reasonable. You have a multibranch 15 amp circuit with 4 duplex 15 amp receptacles. You think it is only reasonable to expect to be able to plug 8 15 amp devices into the circuit?? Give your head a shake. No, but I would expect to be able to plug in one 15 amp device, and I would be correct, unlike having a 20 amp receptacle on a 15 amp circuit, where the same expectation wouldn't be met. Must just be my Boolean logic |
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#53
Posted to alt.home.repair
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15A outlets on 20A circuits
On Thu, 14 Oct 2010 01:10:34 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote: In article , wrote: On Wed, 13 Oct 2010 02:49:40 GMT, (Doug Miller) wrote: In article , bud-- wrote: Most of the thread uses 210.21. It says what you say above, which I agree is odd. No, it doesn't. Read Table 210.21(B)(3). The permitted receptacle ratings on a 15A circuit are "not over 15". On a 20A circuit, it's "15 or 20". A while back I ran across 406.3-A which, IMHO, prohibits almost all 20A single receptacles on a 15A circuit: Never mind that. Table 210.21(B)(3) prohibits *all* 20A receptacles, single or duplex, on a 15A circuit. 15/20A receptacles "shall be installed only on circuits of the voltage class and current for which they are rated." This applies only to "grounding-type" receptacles, so you presumably could put an ungrounded 20A single receptacle as the only receptacle on a 15A circuit (and only in those cases where you can use an ungrounded receptacle). Oddness remains, but is greatly limited. No, you can't. 15A circuits may not have receptacles rated over 15A. Period. There are no exceptions. When you lookk at it logically - from an electrical point of view - it would make more sense to allow a 20 amp receptacle on a 15 amp circuit than the other way around. Look at it from this point of view. A 20 amp receptacle ic designed to handle 20 amp loads - on a 15 amp circuit it is protected to 15 amps. This is definitely safe as nothing can operate above its rated or protected current . No, it is not "definitely safe". It's of questionable safety at best You obviously do not understand electrical theory any more than you understand the code book. You explain to me how a 20 amp receptacle on a 15 amp fused/protected circuit is a safety issue. Give it your best crack. A 15 amp receptacle is designed for a 15 amp load and when installed on a 20 amp circuit is protected at 20 amps and wired with wiring that is rated at 20 amps. The receptacle is now the week link, and being somewhat resistive in nature it is succeptible to overload damage if a load plugged into it draws more than it's rated current - as it is "protected" to a current higher than its rating.. This definitely has the possibility of being unsafe as the receptacle can operate above its rated current. No, it can't, because any device that draws enough current to overload a 15A circuit is not permitted to have a plug that will fit into a 15A receptacle. It will have a plug that fits only into 20A receptacles. That's why a 20A receptacle has a different configuration. No, you are wrong. 100% The fuse is their to prevent damage due to, and protect against FAULT CURRENT. Any device, irregardless of it's rating, can draw excessive current due to a FAULT. And a 15 amp plug fits a 20 amp receptacle. By your logic, twisted as it is, all 15 amp receptacles on a multi-branch circuit would have to be designed, built, and installed in such a way that if anything was plugged into one receptacle drawing close to 15 amps (or anything with a 15 amp plug, for that matter) , it would be impossible to plug anything else into any other receptacle on the circuit. That's not the way it works (thankfully), nor should it. The "ring wiring" system used (at least untill recently) in brittain and some parts of europe makes sense, with fused outlets. There is also a proposed standard (smart home) that would have each plug identify the rated current of the device and centrally monitor the current draw, shutting the device down if current ratings are exceded without shutting down anything else. This system uses RFID chips for identity - and yes - it IS being worked on - I know one of the engineers involved in the project. |
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#54
Posted to alt.home.repair
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15A outlets on 20A circuits
On 10/13/2010 4:44 PM, RBM wrote:
"Steve wrote in message ... On 10/13/2010 9:35 AM, bud-- wrote: Steve Barker wrote: On 10/12/2010 6:29 PM, RBM wrote: wrote in message ... On Tue, 12 Oct 2010 07:55:15 -0400, wrote: wrote in message ... Last week, I posted about running 12/2 wire for a kitchen reno. Well all the circuits are run. I decided on running all 12/2 instead of 12/3 and splitting circuits. Looking ahead to outlets, had a question. I think I know the answer, but just wanted to confirm. I ran 4 new circuits for the fridge, microwave/range hood, and counter outlets. Am I allowed to use regular 15A outlets? For the counter outlets, I am using regular 15A Decora and GFI's, and for the fridge, microwave just wanted to use regular outlets, like the kind you can get a 10Pk for like $5 at Lowes. 15 amp outlets are fine. The refrigerator doesn't need to be GFCI protected, but all the counter outlets do. A 15 amp GFCI outlet has a 20 amp feed through He is NOT using a GFCI on the fridge. Read it again. NEVER use a GFCI on a fridge or freezer. I misread that, but just for clarification, the Nec requires GFCI protection by receptacle location, not by what you're planning to plug into the outlet. Every receptacle in a garage, or unfinished part of a basement requires GFCI protection, even if you plan to plug in a fridge or freezer UNLESS.... there's always an exception. All but one of the exceptions disappeared in the 2008 NEC. (The remaining one is for alarm panels.) The NEC panel does not see a problem with refrigeration on GFCI. In commercial kitchens plug-in refrigeration (15/20A, 120V) is required to be on GFCIs. The UL allowed leakage is around 0.5mA if I remember right. I only know what my local AHJ goes by. And that is the 2005 version. They just switched (last year) from the 1994 version. I'm sure there'll be no switching again for quite some time.G Also, i think some of the confusion comes from the interpretation of the term "single outlet". SINGLE outlet does NOT mean a duplex outlet. And SINGLE (non gfci) outlets are allowed in basement and garages on a circuit for sump pumps and refrigerators. Whereas nothing else can be plugged into them without unplugging the device the outlet was intended for. Has this been eliminated for the 2008 version? -- Steve Barker remove the "not" from my address to email Yes it has. There are no longer any exceptions guess i'll be breaking that rule then. I will NOT put a sump pump on a gfci. period. -- Steve Barker remove the "not" from my address to email |
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#55
Posted to alt.home.repair
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15A outlets on 20A circuits
On Wed, 13 Oct 2010 22:08:36 -0400, "RBM" wrote:
wrote in message .. . On Wed, 13 Oct 2010 16:30:46 -0400, wrote: On Wed, 13 Oct 2010 14:29:30 -0500, wrote: For example, they even put a green ground screw on switches now. WHY? If the switch is in a metal box, it's grounded by the screws, but even in a plastic box, that small piece of metal on the front of the switch is covered by a plastic plate. You are only properly grounded in a metal box if the device is listed as self grounding (a spring or brass clip on the yoke) In a plastic box, there is no guarantee the plate will be plastic and you still have metal screws. Before the grounded switches, they only allowed plastic screws on switch plates but that rule was not followed much either .In almost 60 years I've NEVER seen a plastic plate screw. They do exist: http://www.mcfeelys.com/product/0610...chplate-Screws I didn't say they didn't exist - just that they were so uncommon I never saw one. |
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#56
Posted to alt.home.repair
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15A outlets on 20A circuits
On Wed, 13 Oct 2010 22:21:22 -0400, "RBM" wrote:
wrote in message news On Wed, 13 Oct 2010 20:02:46 -0400, "RBM" wrote: wrote in message ... On Oct 12, 6:41 pm, "RBM" wrote: wrote in message ... On Oct 12, 7:56 am, "RBM" wrote: "RBM" wrote in message ... "Mikepier" wrote in message ... Last week, I posted about running 12/2 wire for a kitchen reno. Well all the circuits are run. I decided on running all 12/2 instead of 12/3 and splitting circuits. Looking ahead to outlets, had a question. I think I know the answer, but just wanted to confirm. I ran 4 new circuits for the fridge, microwave/range hood, and counter outlets. Am I allowed to use regular 15A outlets? For the counter outlets, I am using regular 15A Decora and GFI's, and for the fridge, microwave just wanted to use regular outlets, like the kind you can get a 10Pk for like $5 at Lowes. 15 amp outlets are fine. The refrigerator doesn't need to be GFCI protected, but all the counter outlets do. A 15 amp GFCI outlet has a 20 amp feed through Just to clarify. A single 15 amp outlet can't be installed on a 20 amp dedicated circuit, but a duplex is fine - Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - This is another example of things in the code that don't seem to make any sense, at least to me. If one can install multiple 15 amp outlets on a 20 amp circuit, why the restriction on installing just one? And while we're at it, the code also says you can use a 20 amp single outlet on a 15 amp circuit, but you can't install multiple 20's on a 15 amp circuit. Why the big distinction between single versus multiple outlets? The feed through of a 15 amp outlet is 20 amps. You cannot install a 20 amp outlet on a 15 amp circuit Nec 210.21 B3- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Again, here's what the section you are referring to says. From 2008 NEC, 210.21 (B) (3) Receptacle Ratings. Where connected to a branch circuit supplying TWO OR MORE receptacles or outlets, receptacle ratings shall conform to the values listed in Table 210.21 (B) (3).... The added emphasis is mine. We are talking about a SINGLE receptacle, so that section and it's table do not apply. Section 210.21 (B) (1), which preceeds it, specifically addresses the case of a single receptacle. 21210.21 (B) (1) Single receptacle on an individual branch circuit. A single receptacle installed on an individual branch circuit shall have an ampere rating not less than that of the branch circuit. Do you not agree that a single 20 amp outlet on a 15 amp circuit meets that requirement? Note that I'm not saying it makes sense to me, but it's clearly what it says. No, I respect your logic, but I think that the Nec is written in an often incoherent legalese, which is why I use the handbook. It says that it can't be less than, but it doesn't say that it can be greater than. I think from a practical perspective, one should be able to expect a 20 amp receptacle to be fed by a 20 amp circuit Not reasonable. You have a multibranch 15 amp circuit with 4 duplex 15 amp receptacles. You think it is only reasonable to expect to be able to plug 8 15 amp devices into the circuit?? Give your head a shake. No, but I would expect to be able to plug in one 15 amp device, and I would be correct, unlike having a 20 amp receptacle on a 15 amp circuit, where the same expectation wouldn't be met. Must just be my Boolean logic lots of 20 amp plugged devices will actually run on 15 amps under "normal" conditions but can draw up to 20 (or even more) under cold-start or other special, but not fault, conditions. And you can ONLY expect to plug in one 15 amp device if it is a DEDICATED outlet. - which is the only time a 20 amp receptacle IS allowed on a 15 amp circuit under current code. |
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#57
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15A outlets on 20A circuits
On Oct 13, 8:49*pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article , wrote: On Oct 12, 10:36=A0pm, (Doug Miller) wrote: In article .= com, wrote: And while we're at it, the code also says you can use a 20 amp single outlet on a 15 amp circuit, It says no such thing. Actually it does: It does not. " 210.21 Outlet Devices. (B) Receptacles. (1) Single Receptacle on an Individual Branch Circuit. A single receptacle installed on an individual branch circuit shall have an ampere rating not less than that of the branch circuit." You stopped reading too soon. Table 210.21(B)(3) specifically lists the permissible rating of receptacles on a 15A circuit as "not over 15A". It's you who either can't read, or more likely, as usually, will not simply admit that there was something that you didn't know about and were wrong. I already pointed out that the table you are referring to, Table 210.21(B)(3), DOES NOT APPLY because it starts off by clearly saying right there in plain English that the table applies to circuits with TWO OR MORE receptacles. You do understand that TWO receptacles is not the same thing as ONE receptacle, don;t you? Here again is what you are relying on to make your case: "210.21(B)(3) Receptacle Ratings. Where connected to a branch circuit supplying TWO or MORE receptacles or outlets, receptacle ratings shall conform to the values listed in Table 210.21(B)(3)" We are talking about a SINGLE receptacle. The rules for receptacles are clearly seperated in the NEC into two cases, circuits with single receptacles and circuits with multiple receptacles. Multiple outlets are covered by the section with the table you keep trying to use. The code covers single outlets in the section just before it, 210.21(B) (1): " 210.21 Outlet Devices. (B) Receptacles. (1) Single Receptacle on an Individual Branch Circuit. A single receptacle installed on an individual branch circuit shall have an ampere rating not less than that of the branch circuit." Since 20 amps is greater than 15 amps, the 20 amp receptacle may be used on a circuit where it is the only receptacle. Following your process, one coud use a table in the code that says it applies to circuits less than 600 volts and apply it to circuits over 600 volts or vice versa. Somehow I think it doesn't work that way. Anyone who wants to read the sections in the actual NEC, and make up their own minds, which I encourage, it's available online he http://www.nfpa.org/aboutthecodes/Ab...&EditionID=238 It's a good resource for everyone to have. After you have the book open, click on the TOC button in the lower left to bring up the table of contents, then go to section 2, flip through a few pages until you get to 210.21 It's all there in a few short, clear paragraphs. |
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#58
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15A outlets on 20A circuits
On Oct 13, 10:08*pm, "RBM" wrote:
wrote in message ... On Wed, 13 Oct 2010 16:30:46 -0400, wrote: On Wed, 13 Oct 2010 14:29:30 -0500, wrote: For example, they even put a green ground screw on switches now. *WHY? *If the switch is in a metal box, it's grounded by the screws, but even in a plastic box, that small piece of metal on the front of the switch is covered by a plastic plate. You are only properly grounded in a metal box if the device is listed as self grounding (a spring or brass clip on the yoke) In a plastic box, there is no guarantee the plate will be plastic and you still have metal screws. Before the grounded switches, *they only allowed plastic screws on switch plates but that rule was not followed much either .In almost 60 years I've NEVER seen a plastic plate screw. They do exist:http://www.mcfeelys.com/product/0610...Switchplat...- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Yes, I've seen and used plastic plate screws too. |
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#59
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15A outlets on 20A circuits
On Oct 13, 6:41*pm, "RBM" wrote:
wrote in message ... On Wed, 13 Oct 2010 02:36:56 GMT, (Doug Miller) wrote: In article , wrote: And while we're at it, the code also says you can use a 20 amp single outlet on a 15 amp circuit, It says no such thing. If it is fused at 15 amps it doesn't matter what kind of plug is on the end (as long as it is rated for at LEAST 15 amps - the circuit is protected. - code issues - if any- aside. According to the article it does matter. First of all, in legalese, saying "not less than" doesn't mean that it can be greater than. It just can't be less than. This isn't much of a case of legalese, which is usually used to refer to long, winding sentences that are difficult to decipher. This is one short, direct sentence. Saying it can't be "less than" leaves open exactly two possibilities: A - It can equal to B - It can be greater than Either of those options is valid and not restricted. If they wanted to retrict it to just A, all they had to do was say the receptacle has to be equal to the circuit rating. Let's take some other examples. Suppose the law says that on a certain section of road you must maintain a vehicle speed not less than 40MPH. Would you argue they mean I can't drive at 55MPH? Or that a section of the plumbing code says a pipe must be rated not less than 160 PSI. Does that mean I can't use a pipe rated at 250 PSI ? Second, the table in the same article shows that a receptacle on a 15 amp circuit cant' be rated over 15 amps. Personally, I'd like to know that if I have an appliance that has a 20 amp plug on it, and I find a 20 amp receptacle that I can plug it into, a 15 amp breaker isn't limiting the current. On that I agree with you 100%, which is why I brought up the issue in the first place. Like you and I think 99% of the rest of the world, I would not put a 20 amp receptacle on any 15 amp circuit, as at the very least, it leads to confusion. |
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#60
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15A outlets on 20A circuits
RBM wrote:
wrote in message ... On Oct 13, 5:42 pm, "RBM" wrote: wrote in message ... On Oct 12, 10:47 pm, (Doug Miller) wrote: In article , wrote: And I have to disagree on that one. I can find the code section for you later, Yeah, you do that. We'll wait. You didn't have to wait long. Here it is. No need to get sarcastic and snippy. " 210.21 Outlet Devices. (B) Receptacles. (1) Single Receptacle on an Individual Branch Circuit. A single receptacle installed on an individual branch circuit shall have an ampere rating not less than that of the branch circuit." That is clear as day. A 20 amp single receptacle has an ampere rating greater than that of the circuit, hence it MAY be used. If they wanted to prohibit using a 20 amp or greater single receptacle on a 15 amp circuit, all they had to do was say the receptacle has to have a rating EQUAL to the circuit. but essentially it comes down to this. The code draws a distinction between circuits with only one outlet and those with more than one. With more than one outlet, it says you can't use a 20A outlet on 15A circuit. Wrong. It says you can't use a 20A outlet on a 15A circuit, period. You've apparently become confused by the provision that you can put 15A outlets on a 20A circuit as long as there's more than one outlet. That's perfectly OK. Putting a 20A outlet on a 15A circuit is a violation in all cases, without regard to how many there are. But for a circuit with only ONE outlet, the code says the outlet rating must have a current rating at least equal to the circuit rating. It says no such thing. It is, for example, a violation to put a 50A outlet on a 20A circuit. Actually it does say exactly what I said it does, as shown above. You're the one who's confused, which is OK, but why the attitude? Hence, a 20A single outlet can be use on a 15 amp circuit. No, it cannot. Look at Table 210.21(B)(3), where it lists the permissible receptacle ratings. For a 15-amp circuit, the maximum receptacle rating is "not over 15". Yes, let's look at that section. In the same section where it starts to explain those tables it starts off with: "210.21(B)(3) Receptacle Ratings. Where connected to a branch circuit supplying TWO or MORE receptacles or outlets, receptacle ratings shall conform to the values listed in Table 210.21(B)(3)" The added emphasis is mine. Since we are talking about using a SINGLE 20 amp outlet on a 15 amp circuit, those tables do NOT apply. I agree that it doesn't make any sense to me. Doesn't make any sense to me either. Of course, that's because you're completely wrong about the rules. Actually it's quite clear that you're the one who's wrong here. A simple admission to that and apollogy for getting snippy will suffice. I think the reason for that initial statement in the code, is because a 40 amp receptacle can be wired with a 40 or 50 amp circuit, but the table makes it perfectly clear that a 20 amp receptacle can't be wired with a 15 amp circuit- Hide quoted text - That table is preceeded by the statement, which I provided and is shown above, that says it applies to circuits with TWO or more receptacles. If they wanted it to apply to ALL receptacles, including single outlet ones, they could have simply omitted the word TWO, but they did not. And the section right before it clearly covers the case of a SINGLE receptacle and allows a receptacle with a current rating equal to or greater than the circuit to be used. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me, but that is what it says and it allows using a single 20 amp receptacle on a 15 amp circuit. I see what you're reading, but there is no text that says any receptacle, single or duplex, can have a rating higher than the circuit feeding it. |
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#61
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15A outlets on 20A circuits
wrote:
On Thu, 14 Oct 2010 01:10:34 GMT, (Doug Miller) wrote: In article , wrote: On Wed, 13 Oct 2010 02:49:40 GMT, (Doug Miller) wrote: In article , bud-- wrote: Most of the thread uses 210.21. It says what you say above, which I agree is odd. No, it doesn't. Read Table 210.21(B)(3). The permitted receptacle ratings on a 15A circuit are "not over 15". On a 20A circuit, it's "15 or 20". A while back I ran across 406.3-A which, IMHO, prohibits almost all 20A single receptacles on a 15A circuit: Never mind that. Table 210.21(B)(3) prohibits *all* 20A receptacles, single or duplex, on a 15A circuit. 15/20A receptacles "shall be installed only on circuits of the voltage class and current for which they are rated." This applies only to "grounding-type" receptacles, so you presumably could put an ungrounded 20A single receptacle as the only receptacle on a 15A circuit (and only in those cases where you can use an ungrounded receptacle). Oddness remains, but is greatly limited. No, you can't. 15A circuits may not have receptacles rated over 15A. Period. There are no exceptions. When you lookk at it logically - from an electrical point of view - it would make more sense to allow a 20 amp receptacle on a 15 amp circuit than the other way around. Look at it from this point of view. A 20 amp receptacle ic designed to handle 20 amp loads - on a 15 amp circuit it is protected to 15 amps. This is definitely safe as nothing can operate above its rated or protected current . No, it is not "definitely safe". It's of questionable safety at best You obviously do not understand electrical theory any more than you understand the code book. You explain to me how a 20 amp receptacle on a 15 amp fused/protected circuit is a safety issue. Give it your best crack. trader already did in a perfectly good answer (below). A 15 amp receptacle is designed for a 15 amp load and when installed on a 20 amp circuit is protected at 20 amps and wired with wiring that is rated at 20 amps. The receptacle is now the week link, and being somewhat resistive in nature it is succeptible to overload damage if a load plugged into it draws more than it's rated current - as it is "protected" to a current higher than its rating.. This definitely has the possibility of being unsafe as the receptacle can operate above its rated current. No, it can't, because any device that draws enough current to overload a 15A circuit is not permitted to have a plug that will fit into a 15A receptacle. It will have a plug that fits only into 20A receptacles. That's why a 20A receptacle has a different configuration. No, you are wrong. 100% The fuse is their to prevent damage due to, and protect against FAULT CURRENT. Any device, irregardless of it's rating, can draw excessive current due to a FAULT. What a brilliant idea. We can ignore current trips at a little over the circuit rating and just trip on fault current - maybe 80A and higher. By your logic, twisted as it is, all 15 amp receptacles on a multi-branch circuit would have to be designed, built, and installed in such a way that if anything was plugged into one receptacle drawing close to 15 amps (or anything with a 15 amp plug, for that matter) , it would be impossible to plug anything else into any other receptacle on the circuit. I posted earlier that a 15A duplex receptacle is rated for a total 20A in both halves. There have been a couple posts that a 15A receptacle is rated 20A wire-through. That's not the way it works (thankfully), nor should it. You appear to have little idea of "the way it works". Perhaps the cold electrons in Canada behave differently. Else you should stick to cars. There is no shock hazard and less to burn down. -- bud-- |
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#62
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15A outlets on 20A circuits
RBM wrote:
wrote in message ... On Oct 13, 5:42 pm, "RBM" wrote: wrote in message ... On Oct 12, 10:47 pm, (Doug Miller) wrote: In article , wrote: And I have to disagree on that one. I can find the code section for you later, Yeah, you do that. We'll wait. You didn't have to wait long. Here it is. No need to get sarcastic and snippy. " 210.21 Outlet Devices. (B) Receptacles. (1) Single Receptacle on an Individual Branch Circuit. A single receptacle installed on an individual branch circuit shall have an ampere rating not less than that of the branch circuit." That is clear as day. A 20 amp single receptacle has an ampere rating greater than that of the circuit, hence it MAY be used. If they wanted to prohibit using a 20 amp or greater single receptacle on a 15 amp circuit, all they had to do was say the receptacle has to have a rating EQUAL to the circuit. but essentially it comes down to this. The code draws a distinction between circuits with only one outlet and those with more than one. With more than one outlet, it says you can't use a 20A outlet on 15A circuit. Wrong. It says you can't use a 20A outlet on a 15A circuit, period. You've apparently become confused by the provision that you can put 15A outlets on a 20A circuit as long as there's more than one outlet. That's perfectly OK. Putting a 20A outlet on a 15A circuit is a violation in all cases, without regard to how many there are. But for a circuit with only ONE outlet, the code says the outlet rating must have a current rating at least equal to the circuit rating. It says no such thing. It is, for example, a violation to put a 50A outlet on a 20A circuit. Actually it does say exactly what I said it does, as shown above. You're the one who's confused, which is OK, but why the attitude? Hence, a 20A single outlet can be use on a 15 amp circuit. No, it cannot. Look at Table 210.21(B)(3), where it lists the permissible receptacle ratings. For a 15-amp circuit, the maximum receptacle rating is "not over 15". Yes, let's look at that section. In the same section where it starts to explain those tables it starts off with: "210.21(B)(3) Receptacle Ratings. Where connected to a branch circuit supplying TWO or MORE receptacles or outlets, receptacle ratings shall conform to the values listed in Table 210.21(B)(3)" The added emphasis is mine. Since we are talking about using a SINGLE 20 amp outlet on a 15 amp circuit, those tables do NOT apply. I agree that it doesn't make any sense to me. Doesn't make any sense to me either. Of course, that's because you're completely wrong about the rules. Actually it's quite clear that you're the one who's wrong here. A simple admission to that and apollogy for getting snippy will suffice. I think the reason for that initial statement in the code, is because a 40 amp receptacle can be wired with a 40 or 50 amp circuit, but the table makes it perfectly clear that a 20 amp receptacle can't be wired with a 15 amp circuit- Hide quoted text - That table is preceeded by the statement, which I provided and is shown above, that says it applies to circuits with TWO or more receptacles. If they wanted it to apply to ALL receptacles, including single outlet ones, they could have simply omitted the word TWO, but they did not. And the section right before it clearly covers the case of a SINGLE receptacle and allows a receptacle with a current rating equal to or greater than the circuit to be used. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me, but that is what it says and it allows using a single 20 amp receptacle on a 15 amp circuit. [trader] I agree that 210 does not prohibit a single 20A receptacle on a 15A circuit But a 20A receptacle is virtually never allowed under 406.3-B. It would make sense to at least point to 406 in 210. The logic is probably that 406 (Receptacles...) is the primary article and is modified by 210. There is a reference to 210 in 406.3. Most people would not be dumb enough to want a 20A receptacle on a 15A circuit (there seems to be one exception). I see what you're reading, but there is no text that says any receptacle, single or duplex, can have a rating higher than the circuit feeding it. [RBM] There is text that you can put a 20A receptacle on a 15A circuit. There is no text in 210 that you can't have a higher rating, like 20A (or 50A, or 100A) as the single receptacle. There is text in 406.3 that you can't put a 20A receptacle on a 15A circuit. This is what we all (except one) expect. -- bud-- |
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#63
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15A outlets on 20A circuits
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#64
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15A outlets on 20A circuits
wrote:
On Wed, 13 Oct 2010 14:29:30 -0500, wrote: For example, they even put a green ground screw on switches now. WHY? If the switch is in a metal box, it's grounded by the screws, but even in a plastic box, that small piece of metal on the front of the switch is covered by a plastic plate. You are only properly grounded in a metal box if the device is listed as self grounding (a spring or brass clip on the yoke) In a plastic box, there is no guarantee the plate will be plastic and you still have metal screws. Before the grounded switches, they only allowed plastic screws on switch plates but that rule was not followed much either. Far as I know, a switch doesn't need to be "self grounding". The NEC just requires metal screws and a grounded metal box. (Receptacles that use the mounting screws must be "self grounding".) If I remember right, the argument was that you might have a plastic plate now, but someone could install a metal plate in the future. -- bud-- |
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#65
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15A outlets on 20A circuits
On Oct 14, 11:53*am, bud-- wrote:
RBM wrote: wrote in message .... On Oct 13, 5:42 pm, "RBM" wrote: wrote in message .... On Oct 12, 10:47 pm, (Doug Miller) wrote: In article , wrote: And I have to disagree on that one. I can find the code section for you later, Yeah, you do that. We'll wait. You didn't have to wait long. Here it is. No need to get sarcastic and snippy. " 210.21 Outlet Devices. (B) Receptacles. (1) Single Receptacle on an Individual Branch Circuit. A single receptacle installed on an individual branch circuit shall have an ampere rating not less than that of the branch circuit." That is clear as day. A 20 amp single receptacle has an ampere rating greater than that of the circuit, hence it MAY be used. If they wanted to prohibit using a 20 amp or greater single receptacle on a 15 amp circuit, all they had to do was say the receptacle has to have a rating EQUAL to the circuit. but essentially it comes down to this. The code draws a distinction between circuits with only one outlet and those with more than one. With more than one outlet, it says you can't use a 20A outlet on 15A circuit. Wrong. It says you can't use a 20A outlet on a 15A circuit, period. You've apparently become confused by the provision that you can put 15A outlets on a 20A circuit as long as there's more than one outlet. That's perfectly OK. Putting a 20A outlet on a 15A circuit is a violation in all cases, without regard to how many there are. But for a circuit with only ONE outlet, the code says the outlet rating must have a current rating at least equal to the circuit rating. It says no such thing. It is, for example, a violation to put a 50A outlet on a 20A circuit. Actually it does say exactly what I said it does, as shown above. You're the one who's confused, which is OK, but why the attitude? Hence, a 20A single outlet can be use on a 15 amp circuit. No, it cannot. Look at Table 210.21(B)(3), where it lists the permissible receptacle ratings. For a 15-amp circuit, the maximum receptacle rating is "not over 15". Yes, let's look at that section. In the same section where it starts to explain those tables it starts off with: "210.21(B)(3) Receptacle Ratings. Where connected to a branch circuit supplying TWO or MORE receptacles or outlets, receptacle ratings shall conform to the values listed in Table 210.21(B)(3)" The added emphasis is mine. Since we are talking about using a SINGLE 20 amp outlet on a 15 amp circuit, those tables do NOT apply. I agree that it doesn't make any sense to me. Doesn't make any sense to me either. Of course, that's because you're completely wrong about the rules. Actually it's quite clear that you're the one who's wrong here. A simple admission to that and apollogy for getting snippy will suffice. I think the reason for that initial statement in the code, is because a 40 amp receptacle can be wired with a 40 or 50 amp circuit, but the table makes it perfectly clear that a 20 amp receptacle can't be wired with a 15 amp circuit- Hide quoted text - That table is preceeded by the statement, which I provided and is shown above, that says it applies to circuits with TWO or more receptacles. *If they wanted it to apply to ALL receptacles, including single outlet ones, they could have simply omitted the word TWO, but they did not. * And the section right before it clearly covers the case of a SINGLE receptacle and allows a receptacle with a current rating equal to or greater than the circuit to be used. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me, but that is what it says and it allows using a single 20 amp receptacle on a 15 amp circuit. [trader] I agree that 210 does not prohibit a single 20A receptacle on a 15A circuit But a 20A receptacle is virtually never allowed under 406.3-B. It would make sense to at least point to 406 in 210. The logic is probably that 406 (Receptacles...) is the primary article and is modified by 210. There is a reference to 210 in 406.3. Most people would not be dumb enough to want a 20A receptacle on a 15A circuit (there seems to be one exception). I see what you're reading, but there is no text that says any receptacle, single or duplex, can have a rating higher than the circuit feeding it. [RBM] There is text that you can put a 20A receptacle on a 15A circuit. There is no text in 210 that you can't have a higher rating, like 20A (or 50A, or 100A) as the single receptacle. There is text in 406.3 that you can't put a 20A receptacle on a 15A circuit. This is what we all (except one) expect. -- bud--- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I don't think the issue ever was what we expect. I would not have expected the code to allow a 20 amp receptacle on a 15 amp circuit either, which is why I brought it up in the first place. I also would not wire a circuit that way, because it's misleading at best. But what one expects and what is actually written in the code can be two different things. I think there are actually three differing opinions on this subject. It looks like cl and I read the code as allowing a single 20 amp receptacle on a 15 amp circuit. Doug makes the claim, which I think is totally bogus, that the table in 210.21 (B) (3) says it is not allowed. But that is just plain wrong, because that table is preceeded by verbage that says it applies to circuits with two or more receptacles. I believe you and I agree on that point. Then there is your position, which is that while not prohibited by section 210, it is prohibited by 406.3. That is a new point, which I had never heard used before. But let;s look at what that says. It doesn't actually say you can't put a 20A receptacle on a 15A circuit. What it says is this: 406.3 (A) "Grounding type receptacles shall be installed only on circuits of the voltage class and current for which they are rated, except as provided in Table 210.21 (B)(2) and Table 210.21(B)(3)." A 20A receptable is rated to handle 0 through 20 amps of current. A 15 amp circuit falls in that range, so I would interpret the above to mean that the 20A receptacle is permitted. Especially in view of the fact that when they specifically address the issue of a single outlet they could have just said that in the case of a single outlet you must use a receptacle with a rating equal to the circuit, but they did not and instead said this: " 210.21 Outlet Devices. (B) Receptacles. (1) Single Receptacle on an Individual Branch Circuit. A single receptacle installed on an individual branch circuit shall have an ampere rating not less than that of the branch circuit. Suppose instead of talking about receptacles, 406.3 talked about wire and said wire gauge shall only be installed on circuits of the voltage class and current for which it is rated. Would that mean that I couldn't use 12 gauge wire on a 15 amp circuit? |
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#66
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15A outlets on 20A circuits
On Thu, 14 Oct 2010 10:46:04 -0500, bud--
wrote: wrote: On Thu, 14 Oct 2010 01:10:34 GMT, (Doug Miller) wrote: In article , wrote: On Wed, 13 Oct 2010 02:49:40 GMT, (Doug Miller) wrote: In article , bud-- wrote: Most of the thread uses 210.21. It says what you say above, which I agree is odd. No, it doesn't. Read Table 210.21(B)(3). The permitted receptacle ratings on a 15A circuit are "not over 15". On a 20A circuit, it's "15 or 20". A while back I ran across 406.3-A which, IMHO, prohibits almost all 20A single receptacles on a 15A circuit: Never mind that. Table 210.21(B)(3) prohibits *all* 20A receptacles, single or duplex, on a 15A circuit. 15/20A receptacles "shall be installed only on circuits of the voltage class and current for which they are rated." This applies only to "grounding-type" receptacles, so you presumably could put an ungrounded 20A single receptacle as the only receptacle on a 15A circuit (and only in those cases where you can use an ungrounded receptacle). Oddness remains, but is greatly limited. No, you can't. 15A circuits may not have receptacles rated over 15A. Period. There are no exceptions. When you lookk at it logically - from an electrical point of view - it would make more sense to allow a 20 amp receptacle on a 15 amp circuit than the other way around. Look at it from this point of view. A 20 amp receptacle ic designed to handle 20 amp loads - on a 15 amp circuit it is protected to 15 amps. This is definitely safe as nothing can operate above its rated or protected current . No, it is not "definitely safe". It's of questionable safety at best You obviously do not understand electrical theory any more than you understand the code book. You explain to me how a 20 amp receptacle on a 15 amp fused/protected circuit is a safety issue. Give it your best crack. trader already did in a perfectly good answer (below). I don't see anything SAFETY relatee anywhere in trader's post. All he's talking is inconvenience. A 15 amp receptacle is designed for a 15 amp load and when installed on a 20 amp circuit is protected at 20 amps and wired with wiring that is rated at 20 amps. The receptacle is now the week link, and being somewhat resistive in nature it is succeptible to overload damage if a load plugged into it draws more than it's rated current - as it is "protected" to a current higher than its rating.. This definitely has the possibility of being unsafe as the receptacle can operate above its rated current. No, it can't, because any device that draws enough current to overload a 15A circuit is not permitted to have a plug that will fit into a 15A receptacle. It will have a plug that fits only into 20A receptacles. That's why a 20A receptacle has a different configuration. No, you are wrong. 100% The fuse is their to prevent damage due to, and protect against FAULT CURRENT. Any device, irregardless of it's rating, can draw excessive current due to a FAULT. What a brilliant idea. We can ignore current trips at a little over the circuit rating and just trip on fault current - maybe 80A and higher. By your logic, twisted as it is, all 15 amp receptacles on a multi-branch circuit would have to be designed, built, and installed in such a way that if anything was plugged into one receptacle drawing close to 15 amps (or anything with a 15 amp plug, for that matter) , it would be impossible to plug anything else into any other receptacle on the circuit. I posted earlier that a 15A duplex receptacle is rated for a total 20A in both halves. Not germain to the discussion at hand. You guys seem to think it's your "god given right" to expect to be able to plug a 15 amp device into any 15 amp receptacle in a building and not have a breaker trip. That can ONLY happen if every receptacle in the building is a split on a double breaker. I only know of one house where that is the case - every receptacle in the house is a 20 amp, separately supplied direct from one of several 400 amp panels distributed throughout the house. About half of them are also remotely switched. Took a very good electrician several months to wire that monstrosity. There have been a couple posts that a 15A receptacle is rated 20A wire-through. That's not the way it works (thankfully), nor should it. You appear to have little idea of "the way it works". Perhaps the cold electrons in Canada behave differently. Else you should stick to cars. There is no shock hazard and less to burn down. |
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#67
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15A outlets on 20A circuits
On Thu, 14 Oct 2010 10:53:36 -0500, bud--
wrote: RBM wrote: wrote in message ... On Oct 13, 5:42 pm, "RBM" wrote: wrote in message ... On Oct 12, 10:47 pm, (Doug Miller) wrote: In article , wrote: And I have to disagree on that one. I can find the code section for you later, Yeah, you do that. We'll wait. You didn't have to wait long. Here it is. No need to get sarcastic and snippy. " 210.21 Outlet Devices. (B) Receptacles. (1) Single Receptacle on an Individual Branch Circuit. A single receptacle installed on an individual branch circuit shall have an ampere rating not less than that of the branch circuit." That is clear as day. A 20 amp single receptacle has an ampere rating greater than that of the circuit, hence it MAY be used. If they wanted to prohibit using a 20 amp or greater single receptacle on a 15 amp circuit, all they had to do was say the receptacle has to have a rating EQUAL to the circuit. but essentially it comes down to this. The code draws a distinction between circuits with only one outlet and those with more than one. With more than one outlet, it says you can't use a 20A outlet on 15A circuit. Wrong. It says you can't use a 20A outlet on a 15A circuit, period. You've apparently become confused by the provision that you can put 15A outlets on a 20A circuit as long as there's more than one outlet. That's perfectly OK. Putting a 20A outlet on a 15A circuit is a violation in all cases, without regard to how many there are. But for a circuit with only ONE outlet, the code says the outlet rating must have a current rating at least equal to the circuit rating. It says no such thing. It is, for example, a violation to put a 50A outlet on a 20A circuit. Actually it does say exactly what I said it does, as shown above. You're the one who's confused, which is OK, but why the attitude? Hence, a 20A single outlet can be use on a 15 amp circuit. No, it cannot. Look at Table 210.21(B)(3), where it lists the permissible receptacle ratings. For a 15-amp circuit, the maximum receptacle rating is "not over 15". Yes, let's look at that section. In the same section where it starts to explain those tables it starts off with: "210.21(B)(3) Receptacle Ratings. Where connected to a branch circuit supplying TWO or MORE receptacles or outlets, receptacle ratings shall conform to the values listed in Table 210.21(B)(3)" The added emphasis is mine. Since we are talking about using a SINGLE 20 amp outlet on a 15 amp circuit, those tables do NOT apply. I agree that it doesn't make any sense to me. Doesn't make any sense to me either. Of course, that's because you're completely wrong about the rules. Actually it's quite clear that you're the one who's wrong here. A simple admission to that and apollogy for getting snippy will suffice. I think the reason for that initial statement in the code, is because a 40 amp receptacle can be wired with a 40 or 50 amp circuit, but the table makes it perfectly clear that a 20 amp receptacle can't be wired with a 15 amp circuit- Hide quoted text - That table is preceeded by the statement, which I provided and is shown above, that says it applies to circuits with TWO or more receptacles. If they wanted it to apply to ALL receptacles, including single outlet ones, they could have simply omitted the word TWO, but they did not. And the section right before it clearly covers the case of a SINGLE receptacle and allows a receptacle with a current rating equal to or greater than the circuit to be used. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me, but that is what it says and it allows using a single 20 amp receptacle on a 15 amp circuit. [trader] I agree that 210 does not prohibit a single 20A receptacle on a 15A circuit But a 20A receptacle is virtually never allowed under 406.3-B. It would make sense to at least point to 406 in 210. The logic is probably that 406 (Receptacles...) is the primary article and is modified by 210. There is a reference to 210 in 406.3. Most people would not be dumb enough to want a 20A receptacle on a 15A circuit (there seems to be one exception). A 20 amp receptacle is going to outlast even the hospital duty 15 amp receptacle under moderate to heavy use. Absolutely no reason you cannot use a 20 amp receptacle anywhere in your house that code allows it, or anywhere in the house PERIOD if code is not in effect. Just like there is nothing stopping you from using AWG 12 wiring throught the entire house. The entire house can be wired for 20 amp circuits, and protected by 15 amp breakers or fuses without posing ANY safety issues. There will be cost issues, and IF you attempt to plug in a 20 amp device the breaker will eventually trip. The advantage is, all you need to do is install a 20 amp breaker in place of the 15 and any outlet in the house can instantly become a 20 amp circuit. I see what you're reading, but there is no text that says any receptacle, single or duplex, can have a rating higher than the circuit feeding it. [RBM] There is text that you can put a 20A receptacle on a 15A circuit. There is no text in 210 that you can't have a higher rating, like 20A (or 50A, or 100A) as the single receptacle. There is text in 406.3 that you can't put a 20A receptacle on a 15A circuit. This is what we all (except one) expect. |
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#68
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15A outlets on 20A circuits
wrote in message ... On Oct 13, 5:42 pm, "RBM" wrote: wrote in message ... On Oct 12, 10:47 pm, (Doug Miller) wrote: In article , wrote: And I have to disagree on that one. I can find the code section for you later, Yeah, you do that. We'll wait. You didn't have to wait long. Here it is. No need to get sarcastic and snippy. " 210.21 Outlet Devices. (B) Receptacles. (1) Single Receptacle on an Individual Branch Circuit. A single receptacle installed on an individual branch circuit shall have an ampere rating not less than that of the branch circuit." That is clear as day. A 20 amp single receptacle has an ampere rating greater than that of the circuit, hence it MAY be used. If they wanted to prohibit using a 20 amp or greater single receptacle on a 15 amp circuit, all they had to do was say the receptacle has to have a rating EQUAL to the circuit. but essentially it comes down to this. The code draws a distinction between circuits with only one outlet and those with more than one. With more than one outlet, it says you can't use a 20A outlet on 15A circuit. Wrong. It says you can't use a 20A outlet on a 15A circuit, period. You've apparently become confused by the provision that you can put 15A outlets on a 20A circuit as long as there's more than one outlet. That's perfectly OK. Putting a 20A outlet on a 15A circuit is a violation in all cases, without regard to how many there are. But for a circuit with only ONE outlet, the code says the outlet rating must have a current rating at least equal to the circuit rating. It says no such thing. It is, for example, a violation to put a 50A outlet on a 20A circuit. Actually it does say exactly what I said it does, as shown above. You're the one who's confused, which is OK, but why the attitude? Hence, a 20A single outlet can be use on a 15 amp circuit. No, it cannot. Look at Table 210.21(B)(3), where it lists the permissible receptacle ratings. For a 15-amp circuit, the maximum receptacle rating is "not over 15". Yes, let's look at that section. In the same section where it starts to explain those tables it starts off with: "210.21(B)(3) Receptacle Ratings. Where connected to a branch circuit supplying TWO or MORE receptacles or outlets, receptacle ratings shall conform to the values listed in Table 210.21(B)(3)" The added emphasis is mine. Since we are talking about using a SINGLE 20 amp outlet on a 15 amp circuit, those tables do NOT apply. I agree that it doesn't make any sense to me. Doesn't make any sense to me either. Of course, that's because you're completely wrong about the rules. Actually it's quite clear that you're the one who's wrong here. A simple admission to that and apollogy for getting snippy will suffice. I think the reason for that initial statement in the code, is because a 40 amp receptacle can be wired with a 40 or 50 amp circuit, but the table makes it perfectly clear that a 20 amp receptacle can't be wired with a 15 amp circuit- Hide quoted text - That table is preceeded by the statement, which I provided and is shown above, that says it applies to circuits with TWO or more receptacles. If they wanted it to apply to ALL receptacles, including single outlet ones, they could have simply omitted the word TWO, but they did not. And the section right before it clearly covers the case of a SINGLE receptacle and allows a receptacle with a current rating equal to or greater than the circuit to be used. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me, but that is what it says and it allows using a single 20 amp receptacle on a 15 amp circuit. |
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#69
Posted to alt.home.repair
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15A outlets on 20A circuits
wrote in message ... On Oct 14, 11:53 am, bud-- wrote: RBM wrote: wrote in message ... On Oct 13, 5:42 pm, "RBM" wrote: wrote in message ... On Oct 12, 10:47 pm, (Doug Miller) wrote: In article , wrote: And I have to disagree on that one. I can find the code section for you later, Yeah, you do that. We'll wait. You didn't have to wait long. Here it is. No need to get sarcastic and snippy. " 210.21 Outlet Devices. (B) Receptacles. (1) Single Receptacle on an Individual Branch Circuit. A single receptacle installed on an individual branch circuit shall have an ampere rating not less than that of the branch circuit." That is clear as day. A 20 amp single receptacle has an ampere rating greater than that of the circuit, hence it MAY be used. If they wanted to prohibit using a 20 amp or greater single receptacle on a 15 amp circuit, all they had to do was say the receptacle has to have a rating EQUAL to the circuit. but essentially it comes down to this. The code draws a distinction between circuits with only one outlet and those with more than one. With more than one outlet, it says you can't use a 20A outlet on 15A circuit. Wrong. It says you can't use a 20A outlet on a 15A circuit, period. You've apparently become confused by the provision that you can put 15A outlets on a 20A circuit as long as there's more than one outlet. That's perfectly OK. Putting a 20A outlet on a 15A circuit is a violation in all cases, without regard to how many there are. But for a circuit with only ONE outlet, the code says the outlet rating must have a current rating at least equal to the circuit rating. It says no such thing. It is, for example, a violation to put a 50A outlet on a 20A circuit. Actually it does say exactly what I said it does, as shown above. You're the one who's confused, which is OK, but why the attitude? Hence, a 20A single outlet can be use on a 15 amp circuit. No, it cannot. Look at Table 210.21(B)(3), where it lists the permissible receptacle ratings. For a 15-amp circuit, the maximum receptacle rating is "not over 15". Yes, let's look at that section. In the same section where it starts to explain those tables it starts off with: "210.21(B)(3) Receptacle Ratings. Where connected to a branch circuit supplying TWO or MORE receptacles or outlets, receptacle ratings shall conform to the values listed in Table 210.21(B)(3)" The added emphasis is mine. Since we are talking about using a SINGLE 20 amp outlet on a 15 amp circuit, those tables do NOT apply. I agree that it doesn't make any sense to me. Doesn't make any sense to me either. Of course, that's because you're completely wrong about the rules. Actually it's quite clear that you're the one who's wrong here. A simple admission to that and apollogy for getting snippy will suffice. I think the reason for that initial statement in the code, is because a 40 amp receptacle can be wired with a 40 or 50 amp circuit, but the table makes it perfectly clear that a 20 amp receptacle can't be wired with a 15 amp circuit- Hide quoted text - That table is preceeded by the statement, which I provided and is shown above, that says it applies to circuits with TWO or more receptacles. If they wanted it to apply to ALL receptacles, including single outlet ones, they could have simply omitted the word TWO, but they did not. And the section right before it clearly covers the case of a SINGLE receptacle and allows a receptacle with a current rating equal to or greater than the circuit to be used. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me, but that is what it says and it allows using a single 20 amp receptacle on a 15 amp circuit. [trader] I agree that 210 does not prohibit a single 20A receptacle on a 15A circuit But a 20A receptacle is virtually never allowed under 406.3-B. It would make sense to at least point to 406 in 210. The logic is probably that 406 (Receptacles...) is the primary article and is modified by 210. There is a reference to 210 in 406.3. Most people would not be dumb enough to want a 20A receptacle on a 15A circuit (there seems to be one exception). I see what you're reading, but there is no text that says any receptacle, single or duplex, can have a rating higher than the circuit feeding it. [RBM] There is text that you can put a 20A receptacle on a 15A circuit. There is no text in 210 that you can't have a higher rating, like 20A (or 50A, or 100A) as the single receptacle. There is text in 406.3 that you can't put a 20A receptacle on a 15A circuit. This is what we all (except one) expect. -- bud--- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I don't think the issue ever was what we expect. I would not have expected the code to allow a 20 amp receptacle on a 15 amp circuit either, which is why I brought it up in the first place. I also would not wire a circuit that way, because it's misleading at best. But what one expects and what is actually written in the code can be two different things. I think there are actually three differing opinions on this subject. It looks like cl and I read the code as allowing a single 20 amp receptacle on a 15 amp circuit. Doug makes the claim, which I think is totally bogus, that the table in 210.21 (B) (3) says it is not allowed. But that is just plain wrong, because that table is preceeded by verbage that says it applies to circuits with two or more receptacles. I believe you and I agree on that point. Then there is your position, which is that while not prohibited by section 210, it is prohibited by 406.3. That is a new point, which I had never heard used before. But let;s look at what that says. It doesn't actually say you can't put a 20A receptacle on a 15A circuit. What it says is this: 406.3 (A) "Grounding type receptacles shall be installed only on circuits of the voltage class and current for which they are rated, except as provided in Table 210.21 (B)(2) and Table 210.21(B)(3)." A 20A receptable is rated to handle 0 through 20 amps of current. A 15 amp circuit falls in that range, so I would interpret the above to mean that the 20A receptacle is permitted. Especially in view of the fact that when they specifically address the issue of a single outlet they could have just said that in the case of a single outlet you must use a receptacle with a rating equal to the circuit, but they did not and instead said this: " 210.21 Outlet Devices. (B) Receptacles. (1) Single Receptacle on an Individual Branch Circuit. A single receptacle installed on an individual branch circuit shall have an ampere rating not less than that of the branch circuit. Suppose instead of talking about receptacles, 406.3 talked about wire and said wire gauge shall only be installed on circuits of the voltage class and current for which it is rated. Would that mean that I couldn't use 12 gauge wire on a 15 amp circuit? OK Trader, After looking it over, and over, I think I'm starting to agree with you. The table is clearly prefaced by the text referring to other than single receptacles. I question if it may be an oversight as it sure doesn't make any sense to me, or you and Bud for that matter. Now I'm curious to get the opinion of one of the local electrical inspectors, not that that's necessarily definitive |
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#70
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15A outlets on 20A circuits
On Oct 14, 5:19*pm, "RBM" wrote:
wrote in message ... On Oct 14, 11:53 am, bud-- wrote: RBM wrote: wrote in message .... On Oct 13, 5:42 pm, "RBM" wrote: wrote in message .... On Oct 12, 10:47 pm, (Doug Miller) wrote: In article , wrote: And I have to disagree on that one. I can find the code section for you later, Yeah, you do that. We'll wait. You didn't have to wait long. Here it is. No need to get sarcastic and snippy. " 210.21 Outlet Devices. (B) Receptacles. (1) Single Receptacle on an Individual Branch Circuit. A single receptacle installed on an individual branch circuit shall have an ampere rating not less than that of the branch circuit." That is clear as day. A 20 amp single receptacle has an ampere rating greater than that of the circuit, hence it MAY be used. If they wanted to prohibit using a 20 amp or greater single receptacle on a 15 amp circuit, all they had to do was say the receptacle has to have a rating EQUAL to the circuit. but essentially it comes down to this. The code draws a distinction between circuits with only one outlet and those with more than one. With more than one outlet, it says you can't use a 20A outlet on 15A circuit. Wrong. It says you can't use a 20A outlet on a 15A circuit, period. You've apparently become confused by the provision that you can put 15A outlets on a 20A circuit as long as there's more than one outlet. That's perfectly OK. Putting a 20A outlet on a 15A circuit is a violation in all cases, without regard to how many there are. But for a circuit with only ONE outlet, the code says the outlet rating must have a current rating at least equal to the circuit rating. It says no such thing. It is, for example, a violation to put a 50A outlet on a 20A circuit. Actually it does say exactly what I said it does, as shown above. You're the one who's confused, which is OK, but why the attitude? Hence, a 20A single outlet can be use on a 15 amp circuit. No, it cannot. Look at Table 210.21(B)(3), where it lists the permissible receptacle ratings. For a 15-amp circuit, the maximum receptacle rating is "not over 15". Yes, let's look at that section. In the same section where it starts to explain those tables it starts off with: "210.21(B)(3) Receptacle Ratings. Where connected to a branch circuit supplying TWO or MORE receptacles or outlets, receptacle ratings shall conform to the values listed in Table 210.21(B)(3)" The added emphasis is mine. Since we are talking about using a SINGLE 20 amp outlet on a 15 amp circuit, those tables do NOT apply. I agree that it doesn't make any sense to me. Doesn't make any sense to me either. Of course, that's because you're completely wrong about the rules. Actually it's quite clear that you're the one who's wrong here. A simple admission to that and apollogy for getting snippy will suffice. I think the reason for that initial statement in the code, is because a 40 amp receptacle can be wired with a 40 or 50 amp circuit, but the table makes it perfectly clear that a 20 amp receptacle can't be wired with a 15 amp circuit- Hide quoted text - That table is preceeded by the statement, which I provided and is shown above, that says it applies to circuits with TWO or more receptacles. If they wanted it to apply to ALL receptacles, including single outlet ones, they could have simply omitted the word TWO, but they did not. And the section right before it clearly covers the case of a SINGLE receptacle and allows a receptacle with a current rating equal to or greater than the circuit to be used. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me, but that is what it says and it allows using a single 20 amp receptacle on a 15 amp circuit. [trader] I agree that 210 does not prohibit a single 20A receptacle on a 15A circuit But a 20A receptacle is virtually never allowed under 406.3-B. It would make sense to at least point to 406 in 210. The logic is probably that 406 (Receptacles...) is the primary article and is modified by 210. There is a reference to 210 in 406.3. Most people would not be dumb enough to want a 20A receptacle on a 15A circuit (there seems to be one exception). I see what you're reading, but there is no text that says any receptacle, single or duplex, can have a rating higher than the circuit feeding it. |
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#71
Posted to alt.home.repair
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15A outlets on 20A circuits
On Oct 14, 7:19*pm, "RBM" wrote:
wrote in message ... On Oct 14, 11:53 am, bud-- wrote: RBM wrote: wrote in message .... On Oct 13, 5:42 pm, "RBM" wrote: wrote in message .... On Oct 12, 10:47 pm, (Doug Miller) wrote: In article , wrote: And I have to disagree on that one. I can find the code section for you later, Yeah, you do that. We'll wait. You didn't have to wait long. Here it is. No need to get sarcastic and snippy. " 210.21 Outlet Devices. (B) Receptacles. (1) Single Receptacle on an Individual Branch Circuit. A single receptacle installed on an individual branch circuit shall have an ampere rating not less than that of the branch circuit." That is clear as day. A 20 amp single receptacle has an ampere rating greater than that of the circuit, hence it MAY be used. If they wanted to prohibit using a 20 amp or greater single receptacle on a 15 amp circuit, all they had to do was say the receptacle has to have a rating EQUAL to the circuit. but essentially it comes down to this. The code draws a distinction between circuits with only one outlet and those with more than one. With more than one outlet, it says you can't use a 20A outlet on 15A circuit. Wrong. It says you can't use a 20A outlet on a 15A circuit, period. You've apparently become confused by the provision that you can put 15A outlets on a 20A circuit as long as there's more than one outlet. That's perfectly OK. Putting a 20A outlet on a 15A circuit is a violation in all cases, without regard to how many there are. But for a circuit with only ONE outlet, the code says the outlet rating must have a current rating at least equal to the circuit rating. It says no such thing. It is, for example, a violation to put a 50A outlet on a 20A circuit. Actually it does say exactly what I said it does, as shown above. You're the one who's confused, which is OK, but why the attitude? Hence, a 20A single outlet can be use on a 15 amp circuit. No, it cannot. Look at Table 210.21(B)(3), where it lists the permissible receptacle ratings. For a 15-amp circuit, the maximum receptacle rating is "not over 15". Yes, let's look at that section. In the same section where it starts to explain those tables it starts off with: "210.21(B)(3) Receptacle Ratings. Where connected to a branch circuit supplying TWO or MORE receptacles or outlets, receptacle ratings shall conform to the values listed in Table 210.21(B)(3)" The added emphasis is mine. Since we are talking about using a SINGLE 20 amp outlet on a 15 amp circuit, those tables do NOT apply. I agree that it doesn't make any sense to me. Doesn't make any sense to me either. Of course, that's because you're completely wrong about the rules. Actually it's quite clear that you're the one who's wrong here. A simple admission to that and apollogy for getting snippy will suffice. I think the reason for that initial statement in the code, is because a 40 amp receptacle can be wired with a 40 or 50 amp circuit, but the table makes it perfectly clear that a 20 amp receptacle can't be wired with a 15 amp circuit- Hide quoted text - That table is preceeded by the statement, which I provided and is shown above, that says it applies to circuits with TWO or more receptacles. If they wanted it to apply to ALL receptacles, including single outlet ones, they could have simply omitted the word TWO, but they did not. And the section right before it clearly covers the case of a SINGLE receptacle and allows a receptacle with a current rating equal to or greater than the circuit to be used. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me, but that is what it says and it allows using a single 20 amp receptacle on a 15 amp circuit. [trader] I agree that 210 does not prohibit a single 20A receptacle on a 15A circuit But a 20A receptacle is virtually never allowed under 406.3-B. It would make sense to at least point to 406 in 210. The logic is probably that 406 (Receptacles...) is the primary article and is modified by 210. There is a reference to 210 in 406.3. Most people would not be dumb enough to want a 20A receptacle on a 15A circuit (there seems to be one exception). I see what you're reading, but there is no text that says any receptacle, single or duplex, can have a rating higher than the circuit feeding it. |
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#72
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15A outlets on 20A circuits
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#73
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15A outlets on 20A circuits
On Oct 15, 11:35*am, bud-- wrote:
wrote: On Oct 14, 11:53 am, bud-- wrote: RBM wrote: wrote in message .... On Oct 13, 5:42 pm, "RBM" wrote: wrote in message .... On Oct 12, 10:47 pm, (Doug Miller) wrote: In article , wrote: And I have to disagree on that one. I can find the code section for you later, Yeah, you do that. We'll wait. You didn't have to wait long. Here it is. No need to get sarcastic and snippy. " 210.21 Outlet Devices. (B) Receptacles. (1) Single Receptacle on an Individual Branch Circuit. A single receptacle installed on an individual branch circuit shall have an ampere rating not less than that of the branch circuit." That is clear as day. A 20 amp single receptacle has an ampere rating greater than that of the circuit, hence it MAY be used. If they wanted to prohibit using a 20 amp or greater single receptacle on a 15 amp circuit, all they had to do was say the receptacle has to have a rating EQUAL to the circuit. but essentially it comes down to this. The code draws a distinction between circuits with only one outlet and those with more than one. With more than one outlet, it says you can't use a 20A outlet on 15A circuit. Wrong. It says you can't use a 20A outlet on a 15A circuit, period. You've apparently become confused by the provision that you can put 15A outlets on a 20A circuit as long as there's more than one outlet. That's perfectly OK. Putting a 20A outlet on a 15A circuit is a violation in all cases, without regard to how many there are. But for a circuit with only ONE outlet, the code says the outlet rating must have a current rating at least equal to the circuit rating. It says no such thing. It is, for example, a violation to put a 50A outlet on a 20A circuit. Actually it does say exactly what I said it does, as shown above. You're the one who's confused, which is OK, but why the attitude? Hence, a 20A single outlet can be use on a 15 amp circuit. No, it cannot. Look at Table 210.21(B)(3), where it lists the permissible receptacle ratings. For a 15-amp circuit, the maximum receptacle rating is "not over 15". Yes, let's look at that section. In the same section where it starts to explain those tables it starts off with: "210.21(B)(3) Receptacle Ratings. Where connected to a branch circuit supplying TWO or MORE receptacles or outlets, receptacle ratings shall conform to the values listed in Table 210.21(B)(3)" The added emphasis is mine. Since we are talking about using a SINGLE 20 amp outlet on a 15 amp circuit, those tables do NOT apply. I agree that it doesn't make any sense to me. Doesn't make any sense to me either. Of course, that's because you're completely wrong about the rules. Actually it's quite clear that you're the one who's wrong here. A simple admission to that and apollogy for getting snippy will suffice. I think the reason for that initial statement in the code, is because a 40 amp receptacle can be wired with a 40 or 50 amp circuit, but the table makes it perfectly clear that a 20 amp receptacle can't be wired with a 15 amp circuit- Hide quoted text - That table is preceeded by the statement, which I provided and is shown above, that says it applies to circuits with TWO or more receptacles. *If they wanted it to apply to ALL receptacles, including single outlet ones, they could have simply omitted the word TWO, but they did not. * And the section right before it clearly covers the case of a SINGLE receptacle and allows a receptacle with a current rating equal to or greater than the circuit to be used. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me, but that is what it says and it allows using a single 20 amp receptacle on a 15 amp circuit. [trader] I agree that 210 does not prohibit a single 20A receptacle on a 15A circuit But a 20A receptacle is virtually never allowed under 406.3-B. It would make sense to at least point to 406 in 210. The logic is probably that 406 (Receptacles...) is the primary article and is modified by 210. There is a reference to 210 in 406.3. Most people would not be dumb enough to want a 20A receptacle on a 15A circuit (there seems to be one exception). I see what you're reading, but there is no text that says any receptacle, single or duplex, can have a rating higher than the circuit feeding it. |
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#74
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15A outlets on 20A circuits
On Oct 14, 2:59*pm, wrote:
On Thu, 14 Oct 2010 10:53:36 -0500, bud-- wrote: RBM wrote: wrote in message .... On Oct 13, 5:42 pm, "RBM" wrote: wrote in message .... On Oct 12, 10:47 pm, (Doug Miller) wrote: In article , wrote: And I have to disagree on that one. I can find the code section for you later, Yeah, you do that. We'll wait. You didn't have to wait long. Here it is. No need to get sarcastic and snippy. " 210.21 Outlet Devices. (B) Receptacles. (1) Single Receptacle on an Individual Branch Circuit. A single receptacle installed on an individual branch circuit shall have an ampere rating not less than that of the branch circuit." That is clear as day. A 20 amp single receptacle has an ampere rating greater than that of the circuit, hence it MAY be used. If they wanted to prohibit using a 20 amp or greater single receptacle on a 15 amp circuit, all they had to do was say the receptacle has to have a rating EQUAL to the circuit. but essentially it comes down to this. The code draws a distinction between circuits with only one outlet and those with more than one. With more than one outlet, it says you can't use a 20A outlet on 15A circuit. Wrong. It says you can't use a 20A outlet on a 15A circuit, period. You've apparently become confused by the provision that you can put 15A outlets on a 20A circuit as long as there's more than one outlet. That's perfectly OK. Putting a 20A outlet on a 15A circuit is a violation in all cases, without regard to how many there are. But for a circuit with only ONE outlet, the code says the outlet rating must have a current rating at least equal to the circuit rating. It says no such thing. It is, for example, a violation to put a 50A outlet on a 20A circuit. Actually it does say exactly what I said it does, as shown above. You're the one who's confused, which is OK, but why the attitude? Hence, a 20A single outlet can be use on a 15 amp circuit. No, it cannot. Look at Table 210.21(B)(3), where it lists the permissible receptacle ratings. For a 15-amp circuit, the maximum receptacle rating is "not over 15". Yes, let's look at that section. In the same section where it starts to explain those tables it starts off with: "210.21(B)(3) Receptacle Ratings. Where connected to a branch circuit supplying TWO or MORE receptacles or outlets, receptacle ratings shall conform to the values listed in Table 210.21(B)(3)" The added emphasis is mine. Since we are talking about using a SINGLE 20 amp outlet on a 15 amp circuit, those tables do NOT apply. I agree that it doesn't make any sense to me. Doesn't make any sense to me either. Of course, that's because you're completely wrong about the rules. Actually it's quite clear that you're the one who's wrong here. A simple admission to that and apollogy for getting snippy will suffice.. I think the reason for that initial statement in the code, is because a 40 amp receptacle can be wired with a 40 or 50 amp circuit, but the table makes it perfectly clear that a 20 amp receptacle can't be wired with a 15 amp circuit- Hide quoted text - That table is preceeded by the statement, which I provided and is shown above, that says it applies to circuits with TWO or more receptacles. *If they wanted it to apply to ALL receptacles, including single outlet ones, they could have simply omitted the word TWO, but they did not. * And the section right before it clearly covers the case of a SINGLE receptacle and allows a receptacle with a current rating equal to or greater than the circuit to be used. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me, but that is what it says and it allows using a single 20 amp receptacle on a 15 amp circuit. [trader] I agree that 210 does not prohibit a single 20A receptacle on a 15A circuit But a 20A receptacle is virtually never allowed under 406.3-B. It would make sense to at least point to 406 in 210. The logic is probably that 406 (Receptacles...) is the primary article and is modified by 210. There is a reference to 210 in 406.3. Most people would not be dumb enough to want a 20A receptacle on a 15A circuit (there seems to be one exception). A 20 amp receptacle is going to outlast even the hospital duty 15 amp receptacle under moderate to heavy use. Absolutely no reason you cannot use a 20 amp receptacle anywhere in your house that code allows it, or anywhere in the house PERIOD if code is not in effect. Just like there is nothing stopping you from using AWG 12 wiring throught the entire house. The entire house can be wired for 20 amp circuits, and protected by 15 amp breakers or fuses without posing ANY safety issues. There will be cost issues, and IF you attempt to plug in a 20 amp device the breaker will eventually trip. I think everyone here, except possibly you, agrees at this point that in the USA, the ONLY place code MAY allow doing what you describe is on a 15A circuit with a 20A single outlet. That was what the discussion was about. NEC 210 clearly prohibits putting 20A receptacles on any 15A circuit with more than one outlet. So, to do what you suggest, you'd have to use a single 20A outlet, not a duplex one, and do a homerun back to the panel for each outlet. That indeed involves cost issues, because your basic 15A duplex outlet would now be replaced by two single outlets with two cable runs back to the panel and two 15A breakers. And the point to doing it would be? To confuse people who see a 20A outlet and think they can plug in a 16 to 20A load? And it's currently very much up in the air if code even allows it in the case of a single outlet. I'm starting to lean towards that it does not. The advantage is, all you need to do is install a 20 amp breaker in place of the 15 and any outlet in the house can instantly become a 20 amp circuit. And if you thought you might want 20A outlets in the future, the reason for doing it the way you proposed, as opposed to just wiring the place with a 20A breaker, 20A outlets wherever you want them to begin with, which would cost less than half and give them to you right away, would be? |
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#76
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15A outlets on 20A circuits
On Oct 17, 12:10*pm, wrote:
On Sun, 17 Oct 2010 09:59:30 -0500, bud-- wrote: As I said, IMHO a 20A receptacle on a 15A circuit can be tagged under 403.6-A. Greg? I would tag it and have the installer explain to me why he did it. I agree there is some ambiguous language in the text of 210.21(B)(3) but when 406.3(A) directly addresses table 210.21(B)(3) it seems clear to me. The problem is that 210.21(b)(3) clearly says it and the table apply to circuits with more than one receptacle. And everyone is in agreement that using a 20A outlet on a 15A circuit with more than one receptacle is not allowed. It's 210.21(b)(1) that addresses the issue of a single outlet. |
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