And what was your electric bill last month?

My electric bill is about $120 less each month because of things I have done
in the past to save energy. Basically many little things and a couple of big
things which all add up.

1 plus 2 plus 1 plus 8 plus 1 plus 1 = 14

This same idea works at the gas station. 10 cents less a gallon at a
particular station, fill up 15 gallon tank, do this 3 times a week... Can
make quite a difference if you know how to add.

This project was paid for by money I am saving on my electric bill. And it
was only about $8 because the transformer is in a closet by the door, so
short wire run. So $120 savings minus $8 leaves me with $112 *extra* money
actually.

Everything was installed and wired to code. Metal box and brass plate are
grounded, on GFCI circuit (wet location), wire is 14 gauge romex (regular
electrical wiring, not doorbell wiring), and the momentary push button
switch is rated at 120VAC (not a low voltage doorbell button).

This is my 401K. What better way to go into retirement than to set yourself
up for a low cost of living!

My electric rates went up 13 percent just this year. How much will they go
up in the next 20 years?

Basically there has been a trend to manufacture products which always use
electricity. I'm reversing that trend at my house. I turn this stuff off
when not in use (power strips with switches on them). And switches similar
to this...
http://www.orphanespresso.com/images...l%20switch.jpg

On Nov 20, 10:39*am, "Bill" wrote:
And what was your electric bill last month?


Oh, I dunno, a couple of hundred dollars. We have an outdoor hot tub,
so
the power consumption of doorbells and light bulbs really is in the
noise.

Cindy Hamilton

Bill wrote:
Wired doorbells have a transformer which is always on and always using
electricity. This is yet one more thing in the house which does this like
TV, microwave, remote control things, things with clocks, plug-in phones,
etc.

These things add up...

I replaced/rewired my switch so the transformer is only on when the doorbell
button is pressed! Thus the transformer is off most of the time now.

I installed a regular electrical box at my front door, ran 14 ga. romex from
this box to the doorbell transformer, then got a nice brass blank wall
plate, drilled a hole in this plate, then installed a 120V momentary push
switch in the plate. Then wired this to switch on the transformer when the
button is pressed. Then connected the two wires which were going to the old
button so the doorbell would ring as soon as it receives power from the
transformer.


Hi,
So what is the pay back time for the materials you used? The transformer
when idle uses very small amount of energy. Turning it on/off frequently
may shorten it's life. computers, most appliances draws small amount of
energy when idle. Automobiles are same. Do you see decreased mount in
power bill as a result? I pay 7 cents for 1KW/h. For that door bell to
use 1KW/h will be quite long time. MTW, our house has motorozied chime
palying Westminster bells.

On Nov 20, 12:39*pm, "Bill" wrote:
And what was your electric bill last month?

My electric bill is about $120 less each month because of things I have done
in the past to save energy. Basically many little things and a couple of big
things which all add up.

Wow that $120 is half my average total monthly energy bill for this 4
bedroom all-electric house in a cold climate!

What do you use for heating? Gas (said to be cheaper) not available
here. And oil just too expensive and too much of a liability and
maintenance expense.

A neighbour (also all electric house, as most are here) has gone all
CFLs but says it makes very little difference to their electric bill.

CFLs make sense for outdoor locations so maybe when our long life
incandescent burns out (after several years) will try one outside.
Can't use CFLs in our two motion sensor fixtures, but those only come
on for short periods when activated.

Red Green wrote:
"Bill" wrote in
:


Wired doorbells have a transformer which is always on and always using
electricity. This is yet one more thing in the house which does this
like TV, microwave, remote control things, things with clocks, plug-in
phones, etc.

These things add up...

I replaced/rewired my switch so the transformer is only on when the
doorbell button is pressed! Thus the transformer is off most of the
time now.

I installed a regular electrical box at my front door, ran 14 ga.
romex from this box to the doorbell transformer, then got a nice brass
blank wall plate, drilled a hole in this plate, then installed a 120V
momentary push switch in the plate. Then wired this to switch on the
transformer when the button is pressed. Then connected the two wires
which were going to the old button so the doorbell would ring as soon
as it receives power from the transformer.





It's probably stamped right on it but I never looked. Any idea how many
watts it's uses in it's standby state?

This whole thread is about chasing the "little yellow hole in the snow."
It's trivial.

When the bell is not ringing, the current that is measured is largely
reactive or imaginary current. It is the current determined by the
transformer's magnetizing inductance. The only dissipation is some
small core heating and trivial wire losses. The true dissipation is far
less than what most are calculating by multiplying measured volts and
measured current.

Worry about something important...like preserving the US Constitution.

Boden

terry wrote:


Such a door bell transformer is typically capable of a maximum of 7
watts or less when it is actually ringing the bell or door chime. Many
are not designed for continuous use. Next time I have spare moment
will measure the amount of electrcity such a transformer takes in it'
'idle' state.
It's most likely a few milliamps. Well lets say 10 milliamps (A 100th
of one amp) to be generous to a fairly low grade transformer.
One 100th of an amp at 115 volts = 1.15 watts per hour, 27.6 watt
hours per day or 10,074 watt hours per year. That's just over 10
kilowatt hours per year. Although I doubt it is that high?
At my cost of electrcity (ten cents per kilowatt hour) that's just
about one dollar per year. A saving of one dollar per year (over 20
years) could probably amortize a capital saving at the start of that
period of around $12. Spend more that and it not economic.
Our transformer which has been in place for the last 38 years does run
slightly warm. In this cool climate that warmth does very, very
slightly, but insignificantly, contribute to the electric house
heating. Probably less so than normally leaving the bath and shower
water to cool down to house temperature.
Seemed like rather pointless exercise?

Actually, a big transformer that draws an amp with no load may use less
power than a little transformer that draws half an amp. It's resistance
from the copper windings and the iron core that uses power. Without
resistance, the current is 90 degrees out of phase with supplied
voltage, and that means no power.

I think the solution is a DC chime with a modern wall wart. To get the
Energy Star rating, a wall wart up to 50 watts can't use more than 0.3
watts idling. That would mean about 25 cents a year for electricity.
My remaining question is how long a particular wall wart would last.

Dave Garland wrote:
E Z Peaces wrote:
I've tried battery-powered wireless door chimes. I used AA alkalines,
which have a much longer shelf life than conventional carbon-zinc. The
problem was the current draw of the receivers. A set of batteries would
last only a few months, and a lot of visitors might leave frustrated
before I realized my chime was out of service.

Why use battery-powered chimes (as opposed to transmitters)? My
wireless chimes plug into outlets (upstairs and downstairs chimes).
Being as they make noise, it's not like precise location is critical.
The transmitters use a "N" battery every 3-4 years. You do have to
check occasionally to make sure it's still working.

The operating cost (75 cents per year for batteries, and whatever the
line draw is) is probably more than a transformer-operated bell but
we're way down in the noise range of expense.

Dave

If I went wireless again, I use an outlet-powered receiver. I'd be
concerned about its service life and how much power it sucked.

The Daring Dufas wrote:
Bill wrote:

Wired doorbells have a transformer which is always on and always using
electricity. This is yet one more thing in the house which does this
like TV, microwave, remote control things, things with clocks, plug-in
phones, etc.

These things add up...

I replaced/rewired my switch so the transformer is only on when the
doorbell button is pressed! Thus the transformer is off most of the
time now.

I installed a regular electrical box at my front door, ran 14 ga.
romex from this box to the doorbell transformer, then got a nice brass
blank wall plate, drilled a hole in this plate, then installed a 120V
momentary push switch in the plate. Then wired this to switch on the
transformer when the button is pressed. Then connected the two wires
which were going to the old button so the doorbell would ring as soon
as it receives power from the transformer.


I had a friend some years ago who ran the communications
division of the local power company. This was back when
they had HF radios for communications and the techs actually
had to know something about electronics. They would get
electronic interference complaints which were often traced
to doorbell transformers. It was a very common problem and
one that many people don't even think of today.

TDD


Sorry, but I have a hard time believing that.

If it was "a very common problem", can you offer a cite proving that a
60 hz transformer and 10-50 feet of unshielded wire with 24 vac on it
can cause interference at radio frequencies?

Wouldn't you expect that if that story was true those big pole pig
transformers and all that higher voltage wiring running on the poles on
nearly every street would have caused the radios to melt? G

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia
(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
The speed of light is 1.8*10^12 furlongs per fortnight.

On Thu, 20 Nov 2008 07:39:11 -0800, Bill wrote:
And what was your electric bill last month?

My electric bill is about $120 less each month because of things I have done
in the past to save energy. Basically many little things and a couple of big
things which all add up.

You didn't trim $120/month by eliminating three cent/month transformers.


1 plus 2 plus 1 plus 8 plus 1 plus 1 = 14

This same idea works at the gas station. 10 cents less a gallon at a
particular station, fill up 15 gallon tank, do this 3 times a week... Can
make quite a difference if you know how to add.

I also know that spending two hundred hours to trim three dollars a
year off one's electric bill is insanity.

Turn the thermostat two degrees and it'll outweigh removing every
single transformer in the house.

On Thu, 20 Nov 2008 07:39:11 -0800, "Bill"
wrote:

And what was your electric bill last month?

My electric bill is about $120 less each month because of things I have done
in the past to save energy. Basically many little things and a couple of big
things which all add up.

1 plus 2 plus 1 plus 8 plus 1 plus 1 = 14

This same idea works at the gas station. 10 cents less a gallon at a
particular station, fill up 15 gallon tank, do this 3 times a week... Can
make quite a difference if you know how to add.

This project was paid for by money I am saving on my electric bill. And it
was only about $8 because the transformer is in a closet by the door, so
short wire run. So $120 savings minus $8 leaves me with $112 *extra* money
actually.

Your bell transformer was using $120 worth of electricity? That must
have been one hell of a big transformer, and an even bigger bell!


Everything was installed and wired to code. Metal box and brass plate are
grounded, on GFCI circuit (wet location), wire is 14 gauge romex (regular
electrical wiring, not doorbell wiring), and the momentary push button
switch is rated at 120VAC (not a low voltage doorbell button).

This is my 401K. What better way to go into retirement than to set yourself
up for a low cost of living!

Try considering a cost/benefit analysis next time then do something
that is meaningful. Bottom line is that you saved perhaps a dollar or
two a year if you eliminated the door-bell transformer, not that
sillyi $120 you are quoting!


My electric rates went up 13 percent just this year. How much will they go
up in the next 20 years?

Basically there has been a trend to manufacture products which always use
electricity. I'm reversing that trend at my house. I turn this stuff off
when not in use (power strips with switches on them). And switches similar
to this...
http://www.orphanespresso.com/images...l%20switch.jpg

Harry K wrote:

How about a brass door-knocker which needs no electricity from any
source?

But...but...but...what is the payback? A brass door knocker will run
some bucks and if you only spend 25 cents/yr on electric....

Harry K

Pride of ownership. Just think how jealous your neighbors will be when they
see you polishing that brass on a nice warm autumn day.

Why not just a plain-old fashioned door knocker? No batteries, works
well, very reliable, even works if the power is off, and it's *green*
(especially if made from cheap brass imported from China!)-

the cheao chinese brass was a big polluter in china ands added to
world pollution

E Z Peaces wrote:
terry wrote:


Such a door bell transformer is typically capable of a maximum of 7
watts or less when it is actually ringing the bell or door chime.
Many are not designed for continuous use. Next time I have spare
moment will measure the amount of electrcity such a transformer
takes in it' 'idle' state.
It's most likely a few milliamps. Well lets say 10 milliamps (A 100th
of one amp) to be generous to a fairly low grade transformer.
One 100th of an amp at 115 volts = 1.15 watts per hour, 27.6 watt
hours per day or 10,074 watt hours per year. That's just over 10
kilowatt hours per year. Although I doubt it is that high?
At my cost of electrcity (ten cents per kilowatt hour) that's just
about one dollar per year. A saving of one dollar per year (over 20
years) could probably amortize a capital saving at the start of that
period of around $12. Spend more that and it not economic.
Our transformer which has been in place for the last 38 years does
run slightly warm. In this cool climate that warmth does very, very
slightly, but insignificantly, contribute to the electric house
heating. Probably less so than normally leaving the bath and shower
water to cool down to house temperature.
Seemed like rather pointless exercise?

Actually, a big transformer that draws an amp with no load may use
less power than a little transformer that draws half an amp. It's
resistance from the copper windings and the iron core that uses
power. Without resistance, the current is 90 degrees out of phase
with supplied voltage, and that means no power.

I think the solution is a DC chime with a modern wall wart. To get
the Energy Star rating, a wall wart up to 50 watts can't use more
than 0.3 watts idling. That would mean about 25 cents a year for
electricity. My remaining question is how long a particular wall wart
would last.

Good idea. Everybody has boxes full of wall-warts whose original device has
passed on. Shouldn't be too much of a problem to modify one of the right
voltage.

DGDevin wrote:
Harry K wrote:

How about a brass door-knocker which needs no electricity from any
source?
But...but...but...what is the payback? A brass door knocker will run
some bucks and if you only spend 25 cents/yr on electric....

Harry K

Pride of ownership. Just think how jealous your neighbors will be when they
see you polishing that brass on a nice warm autumn day.

I have a real bell with a pull rope.

If I had to do it over I might just leave the axe by the door. They
could just chop their way in, same as the fire department does, if I
didn't hear the knocking.

Jeff

On Wed, 19 Nov 2008 18:44:47 -0800 (PST), Mikepier
wrote:

On Nov 19, 9:21Â*pm, "Bill" wrote:
Wired doorbells have a transformer which is always on and always using
electricity. This is yet one more thing in the house which does this like
TV, microwave, remote control things, things with clocks, plug-in phones,
etc.

These things add up...

I replaced/rewired my switch so the transformer is only on when the doorbell
button is pressed! Thus the transformer is off most of the time now.

I installed a regular electrical box at my front door, ran 14 ga. romex from
this box to the doorbell transformer, then got a nice brass blank wall
plate, drilled a hole in this plate, then installed a 120V momentary push
switch in the plate. Then wired this to switch on the transformer when the
button is pressed. Then connected the two wires which were going to the old
button so the doorbell would ring as soon as it receives power from the
transformer.

Congratulations, you've just saved yourself 25 cents a year in
electricity.
Not to mention it might not be safe if someone is standing on wet
pavement and they gey shocked by 120V.
You probably spent more in the material than if you let the Xfmr stay
on for 20 years.
Now how are you going to deal with the TV, fridge, phone, alarm clock,
microwave. Wait don't forget VCR/DVD player, cable box, heating
system, computer, sprinkler timer,


Go "Amish"

On Wed, 19 Nov 2008 21:44:40 -0600, "HeyBub"
wrote:

Vic Smith wrote:

Congratulations, you've just saved yourself 25 cents a year in
electricity.
Not to mention it might not be safe if someone is standing on wet
pavement and they gey shocked by 120V.

Geeze, I replaced the transformer powered doorbell in my house 10
years ago with a 15 buck wireless chimer. Couple screws and it's
done. Replaced the AAA batteries once in all that time.


$15 at 25c/year means you'll recover your costs in 60 years. But the
batteries cost, oh, $1.00 every ten years, so that's another six bucks which
will take another 12 years to recover. But 12 years means one more set of
batteries, which requires another four years. Let's see, now (mumble,
mumble, carry-the-three), ah, yes.

Your wireless solution will save you money after a mere 73 years of service.
This does not count lost opportunity costs of the original $15.

Delete from that cost the cost of repairing/replacing whatever was
wrong with the original system (cost of transformer, button, chime and
wire plus labour to replace)

He might still be saving money.

On Wed, 19 Nov 2008 23:13:13 -0800, "DGDevin"
wrote:

E Z Peaces wrote:

I've tried battery-powered wireless door chimes. I used AA alkalines,
which have a much longer shelf life than conventional carbon-zinc. The
problem was the current draw of the receivers. A set of
batteries would last only a few months, and a lot of visitors might
leave frustrated before I realized my chime was out of service.

How about a wired chime using a lithium battery? The battery could
outlast a transformer and be cheaper to replace.

How about a brass door-knocker which needs no electricity from any source?

Or the old "crank" bell - or the one with the plunger you push
(kinda like an old Klaxon horn)

On Wed, 19 Nov 2008 21:44:09 -0600, Red Green
wrote:

Seerialmom wrote in
:

On Nov 19, 6:21Â*pm, "Bill" wrote:
Wired doorbells have a transformer which is always on and always
using electricity. This is yet one more thing in the house which does
this like TV, microwave, remote control things, things with clocks,
plug-in phones, etc.

These things add up...

I replaced/rewired my switch so the transformer is only on when the
doorb
ell
button is pressed! Thus the transformer is off most of the time now.

I installed a regular electrical box at my front door, ran 14 ga.
romex f
rom
this box to the doorbell transformer, then got a nice brass blank
wall plate, drilled a hole in this plate, then installed a 120V
momentary push switch in the plate. Then wired this to switch on the
transformer when th
e
button is pressed. Then connected the two wires which were going to
the o
ld
button so the doorbell would ring as soon as it receives power from
the transformer.

My first thought when reading this was "ok...so we'd save a few
pennies a month". But I investigated and found a rather interesting
read related to your theory where the author actually tested the
doorbell transformer using a Kill-A-Watt:

http://www.newenglandbreeze.com/nl/TEM20080901.html

Luckily my doorbell isn't lighted, so it's probably not worth my time
and effort to change.


Great... I'll eat the three bucks a year and take the beating for being
an environmental criminal.

The KillA Watt does not compensate for the terrible power factor of
an idle transformer - It will be indicating significantly higher than
the actual power disipation of the transformer.
The incandescent lamp in the lighted doorbel button is likely 80% of
the real draw.

Put a power factor correction capacitor across the transformer primary
and I'll bet the KillAWatt reads less than 1 watt.

On Thu, 20 Nov 2008 07:48:22 -0500, George
wrote:

Leroy wrote:


yeah, the article stated 3 lousy watts for a *lighted* doorbell. I doubt
that an unlighted doorbell switch even draws a watt. It's a transformer
but it has *no* load on it at all except for the brief moment it's pushed.
Much ado about Nothing.


But a transformer with no load consumes power which is largely given off
as heat. You can observe this by feeling the transformer. Such loads
collectively add up to a lot of waste. If you have purchased any devices
that use external power supplies (cell phone charger, router in recent
times you will notice that that they no longer use transformers and come
with much more efficient switching power supplies. When it comes to
power waste slow and steady wins the race.

One watt for a year would be about a dollar a year. The payback
on all the OP's effort will take a Long time. g

The fact that my doorbell transformer is not remotely warm to the
touch would indicate to me it is not dissipating 3 watts of power (and
it IS powering an incandescent lighted push button)

The lighted button helps find the key in the dark, so I don't really
care if it costs me $3 a year.

On Thu, 20 Nov 2008 13:17:05 -0600, AZ Nomad
wrote:

On Thu, 20 Nov 2008 07:39:11 -0800, Bill wrote:
And what was your electric bill last month?

My electric bill is about $120 less each month because of things I have done
in the past to save energy. Basically many little things and a couple of big
things which all add up.

You didn't trim $120/month by eliminating three cent/month transformers.


1 plus 2 plus 1 plus 8 plus 1 plus 1 = 14

This same idea works at the gas station. 10 cents less a gallon at a
particular station, fill up 15 gallon tank, do this 3 times a week... Can
make quite a difference if you know how to add.

I also know that spending two hundred hours to trim three dollars a
year off one's electric bill is insanity.

Turn the thermostat two degrees and it'll outweigh removing every
single transformer in the house.


And instead of driving all over town to save $0.05 a gallon on fuel,
drive less, don't haul junk in the car, drive an efficient vehicle,
keep it tuned and the tires inflated, and stay home more.

wrote:

The KillA Watt does not compensate for the terrible power factor of
an idle transformer - It will be indicating significantly higher than
the actual power disipation of the transformer.
The incandescent lamp in the lighted doorbel button is likely 80% of
the real draw.

Put a power factor correction capacitor across the transformer primary
and I'll bet the KillAWatt reads less than 1 watt.


The 4400, which I think is their base model, is supposed to show volts,
amps, volt-amps, power factor, watts, Hertz, kilowatt hours, and hours.
Accuracy is advertised at 0.2%.

Almost all customers love it. I was about to buy one until I read a
review by someone who claims to have bought several for an R&D lab.

He found them inaccurate when new, and they were likely to freeze when
current exceeded 7 amps. This made them useless for anything with a
starting surge that high.

All failed between 30 and 50 hours, giving wild readings or none at all.

I believe him because his description is good. It reminds me of
problems I've had with DMMs that can measure up to 10 amps. If you run
several amps through a resistor with little mass, I suppose sudden
temperature changes can lead to microscopic cracks, which affect
accuracy and cause increasingly fast deterioration. I imagine
Kill-a-watt's manufacturer could solve the problem with R&D.

Boden wrote in :

Red Green wrote:
"Bill" wrote in
:


Wired doorbells have a transformer which is always on and always
using electricity. This is yet one more thing in the house which does
this like TV, microwave, remote control things, things with clocks,
plug-in phones, etc.

These things add up...

I replaced/rewired my switch so the transformer is only on when the
doorbell button is pressed! Thus the transformer is off most of the
time now.

I installed a regular electrical box at my front door, ran 14 ga.
romex from this box to the doorbell transformer, then got a nice
brass blank wall plate, drilled a hole in this plate, then installed
a 120V momentary push switch in the plate. Then wired this to switch
on the transformer when the button is pressed. Then connected the two
wires which were going to the old button so the doorbell would ring
as soon as it receives power from the transformer.





It's probably stamped right on it but I never looked. Any idea how
many watts it's uses in it's standby state?

This whole thread is about chasing the "little yellow hole in the
snow."
It's trivial.

When the bell is not ringing, the current that is measured is largely
reactive or imaginary current. It is the current determined by the
transformer's magnetizing inductance. The only dissipation is some
small core heating and trivial wire losses. The true dissipation is
far less than what most are calculating by multiplying measured volts
and measured current.

Worry about something important...like preserving the US Constitution.

Boden



Yellow holes in snow are not trivial.

Watch out where the huskies go and dont you eat that yellow snow. [Frank
Zappa]

Jeff Wisnia wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote:


I had a friend some years ago who ran the communications
division of the local power company. This was back when
they had HF radios for communications and the techs actually
had to know something about electronics. They would get
electronic interference complaints which were often traced
to doorbell transformers. It was a very common problem and
one that many people don't even think of today.

TDD


Sorry, but I have a hard time believing that.

If it was "a very common problem", can you offer a cite proving that a
60 hz transformer and 10-50 feet of unshielded wire with 24 vac on it
can cause interference at radio frequencies?

Wouldn't you expect that if that story was true those big pole pig
transformers and all that higher voltage wiring running on the poles on
nearly every street would have caused the radios to melt? G

Jeff


According to the FCC Interference Handbook, defective doorbell
transformers are often a source of interference to TVs and other
household electronics. It may be a neighbor's transformer. I think it
happens when part of the core comes loose and vibrates.

E Z Peaces wrote:
If I went wireless again, I use an outlet-powered receiver. I'd be
concerned about its service life and how much power it sucked.

I've had one in service for at least a decade. It's outlasted several
of the button/transmitter units. And a second (upstairs) for 3-4 years.
The nameplate current is 50ma (which would be 6W) on one, and about
twice that on the other, but I think that must be when actually making
noise, as I couldn't measure *any* current drain.

Dave

E Z Peaces wrote:
Jeff Wisnia wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote:


I had a friend some years ago who ran the communications
division of the local power company. This was back when
they had HF radios for communications and the techs actually
had to know something about electronics. They would get
electronic interference complaints which were often traced
to doorbell transformers. It was a very common problem and
one that many people don't even think of today.

TDD


Sorry, but I have a hard time believing that.

If it was "a very common problem", can you offer a cite proving that a
60 hz transformer and 10-50 feet of unshielded wire with 24 vac on it
can cause interference at radio frequencies?

Wouldn't you expect that if that story was true those big pole pig
transformers and all that higher voltage wiring running on the poles
on nearly every street would have caused the radios to melt? G

Jeff


According to the FCC Interference Handbook, defective doorbell
transformers are often a source of interference to TVs and other
household electronics. It may be a neighbor's transformer. I think it
happens when part of the core comes loose and vibrates.

I'm no EE, but I would guess that most of the in-house interference is
back down along the power lines, not through the air. I know that on the
baby shortwave I use to AM-band DX myself to sleep at night, when some
unknown something in my house (or one of the neighbor's houses on the
same pole can) is running, I can't get S**t to come in. But if I unplug
the wall wart and run on batteries it comes in fine, as long as the
unplugged cord is over a foot from the radio. Intermittent as hell, and
annoying.

--
aem sends...

Bill wrote:
And what was your electric bill last month?

My electric bill is about $120 less each month because of things I have done

Eek! My electric bill is around $40-45 total for my house, and I've got
an old refrigerator and several computers that run 24/7. But gas heat.

Dave

E Z Peaces wrote:
Jeff Wisnia wrote:

The Daring Dufas wrote:



I had a friend some years ago who ran the communications
division of the local power company. This was back when
they had HF radios for communications and the techs actually
had to know something about electronics. They would get
electronic interference complaints which were often traced
to doorbell transformers. It was a very common problem and
one that many people don't even think of today.

TDD



Sorry, but I have a hard time believing that.

If it was "a very common problem", can you offer a cite proving that a
60 hz transformer and 10-50 feet of unshielded wire with 24 vac on it
can cause interference at radio frequencies?

Wouldn't you expect that if that story was true those big pole pig
transformers and all that higher voltage wiring running on the poles
on nearly every street would have caused the radios to melt? G

Jeff


According to the FCC Interference Handbook, defective doorbell
transformers are often a source of interference to TVs and other
household electronics. It may be a neighbor's transformer. I think it
happens when part of the core comes loose and vibrates.

If the Guberment says so it must be so. I just don't believe it.

"Phisherman" wrote in message


I need to clear off some folks on my front stoop from time to time.
Would this really work with Jahova witnessess?

I'm looking forward to their next visit. They came last week when no one
was home and left the storm door unlatched. Wind took it and did some
damage, bent the hinge. I'll bet my house will be on the "do not knock"
list after the next visit.

Boden wrote:
E Z Peaces wrote:
Jeff Wisnia wrote:

The Daring Dufas wrote:



I had a friend some years ago who ran the communications
division of the local power company. This was back when
they had HF radios for communications and the techs actually
had to know something about electronics. They would get
electronic interference complaints which were often traced
to doorbell transformers. It was a very common problem and
one that many people don't even think of today.

TDD



Sorry, but I have a hard time believing that.

If it was "a very common problem", can you offer a cite proving that
a 60 hz transformer and 10-50 feet of unshielded wire with 24 vac on
it can cause interference at radio frequencies?

Wouldn't you expect that if that story was true those big pole pig
transformers and all that higher voltage wiring running on the poles
on nearly every street would have caused the radios to melt? G

Jeff


According to the FCC Interference Handbook, defective doorbell
transformers are often a source of interference to TVs and other
household electronics. It may be a neighbor's transformer. I think
it happens when part of the core comes loose and vibrates.

If the Guberment says so it must be so. I just don't believe it.

Several electric utilities say so. It can also come from microarcs in
transformers on poles. When they get a complaint, they check poles with
an ultrasound detector to pick up noise from an arc.

When a doorbell transformer fails, I imagine it's usually an open
primary. When it first opens, I imagine the vibration of the
transformer could keep the break arcing indefinitely.

Jeff Wisnia wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote:
Bill wrote:


I had a friend some years ago who ran the communications
division of the local power company. This was back when
they had HF radios for communications and the techs actually
had to know something about electronics. They would get
electronic interference complaints which were often traced
to doorbell transformers. It was a very common problem and
one that many people don't even think of today.

TDD


Sorry, but I have a hard time believing that.

If it was "a very common problem", can you offer a cite proving that a
60 hz transformer and 10-50 feet of unshielded wire with 24 vac on it
can cause interference at radio frequencies?

Wouldn't you expect that if that story was true those big pole pig
transformers and all that higher voltage wiring running on the poles on
nearly every street would have caused the radios to melt? G

Jeff


Do you know what voltage most (USA) doorbells operate on?

TDD

The Daring Dufas wrote:
Jeff Wisnia wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote:
Bill wrote:


I had a friend some years ago who ran the communications
division of the local power company. This was back when
they had HF radios for communications and the techs actually
had to know something about electronics. They would get
electronic interference complaints which were often traced
to doorbell transformers. It was a very common problem and
one that many people don't even think of today.

TDD


Sorry, but I have a hard time believing that.

If it was "a very common problem", can you offer a cite proving that a
60 hz transformer and 10-50 feet of unshielded wire with 24 vac on it
can cause interference at radio frequencies?

Wouldn't you expect that if that story was true those big pole pig
transformers and all that higher voltage wiring running on the poles on
nearly every street would have caused the radios to melt? G

Jeff


Do you know what voltage most (USA) doorbells operate on?

TDD

twenty volts or under, while thermostat transformers are typically
twenty four volts.

Leroy wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote:
Jeff Wisnia wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote:
Bill wrote:


I had a friend some years ago who ran the communications
division of the local power company. This was back when
they had HF radios for communications and the techs actually
had to know something about electronics. They would get
electronic interference complaints which were often traced
to doorbell transformers. It was a very common problem and
one that many people don't even think of today.

TDD


Sorry, but I have a hard time believing that.

If it was "a very common problem", can you offer a cite proving that a
60 hz transformer and 10-50 feet of unshielded wire with 24 vac on it
can cause interference at radio frequencies?

Wouldn't you expect that if that story was true those big pole pig
transformers and all that higher voltage wiring running on the poles on
nearly every street would have caused the radios to melt? G

Jeff


Do you know what voltage most (USA) doorbells operate on?

TDD

twenty volts or under, while thermostat transformers are typically
twenty four volts.

I believe I asked Jeff. Do you know what your
name is?

TDD

I went through a lot of the replies, the one thing no one thought of is the
EMF pulse through the transformer when its powered up and down quickly, it's
sorta like a old style igition coil, there is a pulse of voltage then the
magneitic field colapases, and having full line voltage at a doorbell button
outside where it may get wet, exposed to the weather is not a good idea
either, but if one realy wants to go green, go with the old fashioned door
knocker, but when we remodeled and put the front door in, I installed a
wired doorbell button and all.
"Bill" wrote in message
...
Wired doorbells have a transformer which is always on and always using
electricity. This is yet one more thing in the house which does this like
TV, microwave, remote control things, things with clocks, plug-in phones,
etc.

These things add up...

I replaced/rewired my switch so the transformer is only on when the
doorbell I wen button is pressed! Thus the transformer is off most of the
time now.

I installed a regular electrical box at my front door, ran 14 ga. romex
from this box to the doorbell transformer, then got a nice brass blank
wall plate, drilled a hole in this plate, then installed a 120V momentary
push switch in the plate. Then wired this to switch on the transformer
when the button is pressed. Then connected the two wires which were going
to the old button so the doorbell would ring as soon as it receives power
from the transformer.

On Nov 21, 7:21�am, "Craig M" wrote:
I went through a lot of the replies, the one thing no one thought of is the
EMF pulse through the transformer when its powered up and down quickly, it's
sorta like a old style igition coil, there is a pulse of voltage then the
magneitic field colapases, and having full line voltage at a doorbell button
outside where it may get wet, exposed to the weather is not a good idea
either, but if one realy wants to go green, go with the old fashioned door
knocker, but when we remodeled and put the front door in, I installed a
wired doorbell button and all."Bill" wrote in message

...



Wired doorbells have a transformer which is always on and always using
electricity. This is yet one more thing in the house which does this like
TV, microwave, remote control things, things with clocks, plug-in phones,
etc.

These things add up...

I replaced/rewired my switch so the transformer is only on when the
doorbell I wen button is pressed! Thus the transformer is off most of the
time now.

I installed a regular electrical box at my front door, ran 14 ga. romex
from this box to the doorbell transformer, then got a nice brass blank
wall plate, drilled a hole in this plate, then installed a 120V momentary
push switch in the plate. Then wired this to switch on the transformer
when the button is pressed. Then connected the two wires which were going
to the old button so the doorbell would ring as soon as it receives power
from the transformer.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

EMF pulse, you worry too much.

Doorbell transformers are highly reliable only had one fail in my
lifetime.

I was about 10 when it got noisey and warm so i replaced it. want to
walk thru our former home someday, wonder if its still in use.

it got noisey and pretty warm, a fond memory of a big fix at the time

In article ,
"Bill" wrote:

Wired doorbells have a transformer which is always on and always
using electricity.

So what? I lose more money each year in coins that have fallen between
the seats in my car.

Save the planet? Hardly. If everyone on the grid turned-off their
doorbell transformer, it wouldn't make ANY difference - not ONE iota -
in climate change. None. Zippo.

This is yet one more thing in the house which does this like
TV, microwave, remote control things, things with clocks,
plug-in phones, etc.

These things add up...

So what? Hang one - ONE - load of laundry on a line to dry instead of
using the clothes dryer and you've compensated for a LIFETIME of such
minor energy usage.

I replaced/rewired my switch so the transformer is only on when the doorbell
button is pressed! Thus the transformer is off most of the time now.

You need to get a job or a life - or both.

You could have saved yourself a lot of time, effort and money by simply
turning-off the transformer and removing the doorbell button. Let 'em
KNOCK.

[Shaking my head, walking away and muttering] Unbelievable.
--

JR

On Thu, 20 Nov 2008 17:14:47 -0500, wrote:

[snip]

The incandescent lamp in the lighted doorbel button is likely 80% of
the real draw.


Can you get doorbell buttons with LEDs?

[snip]
--
34 days until the winter solstice celebration

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"The government of the United States is not, in
any sense, founded on the Christian religion."

On Fri, 21 Nov 2008 01:14:34 -0600, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

Leroy wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote:
Jeff Wisnia wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote:
Bill wrote:


I had a friend some years ago who ran the communications
division of the local power company. This was back when
they had HF radios for communications and the techs actually
had to know something about electronics. They would get
electronic interference complaints which were often traced
to doorbell transformers. It was a very common problem and
one that many people don't even think of today.

TDD


Sorry, but I have a hard time believing that.

If it was "a very common problem", can you offer a cite proving that a
60 hz transformer and 10-50 feet of unshielded wire with 24 vac on it
can cause interference at radio frequencies?

Wouldn't you expect that if that story was true those big pole pig
transformers and all that higher voltage wiring running on the poles on
nearly every street would have caused the radios to melt? G

Jeff


Do you know what voltage most (USA) doorbells operate on?

TDD

twenty volts or under, while thermostat transformers are typically
twenty four volts.

I believe I asked Jeff. Do you know what your
name is?

TDD

You didn't ask Jeff personally. Had you done so, it would have been an
email, instead you asked a general question on Usenet, and someone was
nice enough to reply with good information. And, yes, we know what
your name is: "Asshole".

That pulse can pack a pretty good hit, want to try something, flash a 9 volt
batt on the low voltage side of a doorbell transformer, and feel what you
get on the other side.
that pulse can back feed through the house wiring, and posiblilty zap
something else.
Thats all I was worried about.

wrote in message
...
On Nov 21, 7:21?am, "Craig M" wrote:
I went through a lot of the replies, the one thing no one thought of is
the
EMF pulse through the transformer when its powered up and down quickly,
it's
sorta like a old style igition coil, there is a pulse of voltage then the
magneitic field colapases, and having full line voltage at a doorbell
button
outside where it may get wet, exposed to the weather is not a good idea
either, but if one realy wants to go green, go with the old fashioned door
knocker, but when we remodeled and put the front door in, I installed a
wired doorbell button and all."Bill" wrote
in message

...



Wired doorbells have a transformer which is always on and always using
electricity. This is yet one more thing in the house which does this
like
TV, microwave, remote control things, things with clocks, plug-in
phones,
etc.

These things add up...

I replaced/rewired my switch so the transformer is only on when the
doorbell I wen button is pressed! Thus the transformer is off most of
the
time now.

I installed a regular electrical box at my front door, ran 14 ga. romex
from this box to the doorbell transformer, then got a nice brass blank
wall plate, drilled a hole in this plate, then installed a 120V
momentary
push switch in the plate. Then wired this to switch on the transformer
when the button is pressed. Then connected the two wires which were
going
to the old button so the doorbell would ring as soon as it receives
power
from the transformer.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

EMF pulse, you worry too much.

Doorbell transformers are highly reliable only had one fail in my
lifetime.

I was about 10 when it got noisey and warm so i replaced it. want to
walk thru our former home someday, wonder if its still in use.

it got noisey and pretty warm, a fond memory of a big fix at the time

On Nov 19, 6:21*pm, "Bill" wrote:
Wired doorbells have a transformer which is always on and always using
electricity. This is yet one more thing in the house which does this like
TV, microwave, remote control things, things with clocks, plug-in phones,
etc.

These things add up...

I replaced/rewired my switch so the transformer is only on when the doorbell
button is pressed! Thus the transformer is off most of the time now.

I installed a regular electrical box at my front door, ran 14 ga. romex from
this box to the doorbell transformer, then got a nice brass blank wall
plate, drilled a hole in this plate, then installed a 120V momentary push
switch in the plate. Then wired this to switch on the transformer when the
button is pressed. Then connected the two wires which were going to the old
button so the doorbell would ring as soon as it receives power from the
transformer.

It is great to see someone actually measured the watt draw then did
the math for the houses in this country. Our houses have so many
small loads in them that we need to get busy and decrease them. No
I’m not recommending making them unsafe, just efficient.

Here is some information from the California Energy Comission


1. "Energy Use of Household Electronics: Taming the Wild Growth" is a
two-page technical brief. The phantom load (the power used by
appliances that are in standby mode) of residential appliances in 50
California homes have been measured. Contrary to what might have been
expected, findings indicate that phantom load prevention (mostly by
unplugging appliances that are not in use), while still advisable,
would not save a great deal of energy. The loads of appliances in
active mode represent the lion's share of energy consumption, and
suggestions to reduce this energy use are offered as a means to bring
about much more dramatic energy savings than phantom load reductions
might. View this document at
http://www.esource.com/esource/getpu...df/cec/CEC-TB-
32_HsholdElectronics.pdf.

2. "What Lies Within: Improving the Efficiency of Internal Power
Supplies" is a two-page technical brief. It describes how Ecos
Consulting and the Electric Power Research Institute have developed
energy efficiencies for appliances, how they are interacting with
various members of the appliance sector to encourage the
implementation of those energy efficiencies, and how they are working
with others to encourage energy-efficiency appliance standards. See
this document at
http://www.esource.com/esource/getpu...df/cec/CEC-TB-
41_IntPowerSupplies.pdf.

I unwired my transformer about 8 years ago and installed a door
knocker. My friends know to knock and the sales people push the door
bell (too bad I miss them). I also have had a negative electric bill
since June 2002. We first got efficient then installed Solar Electric
(PV).

So the concept of reducing the bill is great, let’s do it SAFE. We
all need to question the power consumption on and off of anything we
buy. If the sales person cannot provide us with the rated consumption
we should tell them no thanks. When sales drops enough the companies
will start providing the info.

Some may say it will hurt our economy. Just look at what being
inefficient has done for us. Sending nearly 1 Trillion dollars out of
our country every year, being spent on a product that has a finite
supply and spews pollution into our precious atmosphere, causing
health issues we do not even know about yet. The possibility of
climate change (for those who still do not believe, I do). The cost
of these things are un-totaled and likely far exceed the cost of the
fuel.

Think Whole House Performance, it’s the right thing to do.

Andy

PeterD wrote:
On Fri, 21 Nov 2008 01:14:34 -0600, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

Leroy wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote:
Jeff Wisnia wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote:
Bill wrote:

I had a friend some years ago who ran the communications
division of the local power company. This was back when
they had HF radios for communications and the techs actually
had to know something about electronics. They would get
electronic interference complaints which were often traced
to doorbell transformers. It was a very common problem and
one that many people don't even think of today.

TDD

Sorry, but I have a hard time believing that.

If it was "a very common problem", can you offer a cite proving that a
60 hz transformer and 10-50 feet of unshielded wire with 24 vac on it
can cause interference at radio frequencies?

Wouldn't you expect that if that story was true those big pole pig
transformers and all that higher voltage wiring running on the poles on
nearly every street would have caused the radios to melt? G

Jeff

Do you know what voltage most (USA) doorbells operate on?

TDD
twenty volts or under, while thermostat transformers are typically
twenty four volts.

I believe I asked Jeff. Do you know what your
name is?

TDD

You didn't ask Jeff personally. Had you done so, it would have been an
email, instead you asked a general question on Usenet, and someone was
nice enough to reply with good information. And, yes, we know what
your name is: "Asshole".


I didn't ask you either. You obviously missed the
point of the question, it was a little dig. I did
not ask the general either. *snicker*

TDD