In article , "George E. Cawthon" wrote:
Rick Blaine wrote:
"George E. Cawthon" wrote:

Course the real problem is that the customer
charge (mainly billing) is as much as the actual
water charge (deliver costs plus maintenance).

And then you run into the municipalities that use the water bill as a back
door
way of taxing the residents without having to get voter approval...

Do not how that would work since water is
usually/often provided by a public utility.
However, water usage during 4-5 months when
irrigation use is highly unlikely is used to
determine the sewer bill.

The water is provided by a utility not the
government. As such it is regulated by a state
agency, but the state or the city do not get the
money.

In many communities, the municipality owns the water utility, and thus the
water *is* provided by the government, and the city *does* get the money.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

On Sun, 21 Jan 2007 00:15:41 GMT, "George E. Cawthon"
wrote:

mm wrote:
On 20 Jan 2007 08:05:29 -0800, "Harry K"
wrote:

Because a 'unit' is a much more useable measure for that much volume.
Much easier to look at a bill and see "oh, I used 3 units this month
instead of the usual 1' rather than seeing the volume in thousands of
gallons.

I think if this were designed for single family homes, it would be
better to use an average of 30 units, for example. So one wouldn't
have to cut or increase his usage by a whole third to see the number
change.

I would agree, but the units are probably measured
to the third decimal place not just whole numbers.
I know that CCF on my bill are to the fourth
decimal place as is the charge per CCF in dollars.

OK. I've never gotten a water bill from the water company. It seems
we would have to pay someone to read each house's meter, so we just
let them read the main meter and divide by 109, the number of houses.

So I get a bill from the HOA management company, with no details at
all, just a dollar amount.

Same reason some items are measured/sold by 'hundred weight' or 'tons'
vice pounds.

Harry K

"mm" wrote in message

OK. I've never gotten a water bill from the water company. It seems
we would have to pay someone to read each house's meter, so we just
let them read the main meter and divide by 109, the number of houses.

So I get a bill from the HOA management company, with no details at
all, just a dollar amount.

And 109 people are OK with that? Only way I'd accept that policy is if I
was one of the user abusers and let the other homeowners subsidize me. Get
a copy of the real bill, read your own meter and see if you are getting
screwed.

Louisville resident here.
Three thousand gallons is used as the minimum billing amount.
So even if water is not being used, but is an active account, 3,000
will be billed.
We use it, as a 2-person household. We do the regular stuff, with
daily showers, dishes, laundry for two, etc. We don't use the minimum
in a two month period.
So....
That water is $17.
The sewer charge is $23.
The drainage fee, charged by the sewer company
and tacked onto the water bill is $3/month, or $6 for
the billing period.
So the cost of getting water, and using or not using 3,000 gallons
of water, after taxes have been tacked on, is $52. That's easy
enough to see that a thousand gallons of water is about $17.
BTW, it's in an area of combined sewers, and the EPA is calling for
that to be corrected. So no surprise that the bills are climbing.

David Starr wrote:
On Fri, 19 Jan 2007 23:03:29 -0500, Terry wrote:

My bill was 11$. It said my usage was 2 units. I know that is not
gallons.

My usage was 6 units.
Water $20.64
Water service charge $9.97
Sewage fee $9.36
Sewage service charge $12.10
Total $52.07

Sewage fees are for the use of the sewer system

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Now I can do what I enjoy: Large Format Photography

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"Michael B" wrote in message
Three thousand gallons is used as the minimum billing amount.
So even if water is not being used, but is an active account, 3,000
will be billed.
We use it, as a 2-person household. We do the regular stuff, with
daily showers, dishes, laundry for two, etc. We don't use the minimum
in a two month period.
So....
That water is $17.
The sewer charge is $23.
The drainage fee, charged by the sewer company
and tacked onto the water bill is $3/month, or $6 for
the billing period.
So the cost of getting water, and using or not using 3,000 gallons
of water, after taxes have been tacked on, is $52. That's easy
enough to see that a thousand gallons of water is about $17.
BTW, it's in an area of combined sewers, and the EPA is calling for
that to be corrected. So no surprise that the bills are climbing.

My billing is quarterly.

Three months was 16,000 gallons The meter reading is thousands of
gallons.894 to 910.
$72.50 for the water
$39.45 for sewer
There is a minimum billing bit I'm not sure what that is.

"George E. Cawthon" wrote:

Do not how that would work since water is
usually/often provided by a public utility.

In many communities in the US, the water department is a city or (less often) a
county department. Any revenue generated by this department goes into the city
coffers, just like local taxes and police ticket revenue.

On Sun, 21 Jan 2007 12:49:42 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski"
wrote:


"mm" wrote in message

OK. I've never gotten a water bill from the water company. It seems
we would have to pay someone to read each house's meter, so we just
let them read the main meter and divide by 109, the number of houses.

So I get a bill from the HOA management company, with no details at
all, just a dollar amount.

And 109 people are OK with that?

Most people are like sheep. And it's more than 109, because people
sell and new people buy, and I've only heard one person ask and no one
complain. These were starter homes for the first set of buyers, and
I'm told Americans on average move every 5 years, so in 27 years it
must be close to 400**

**I lowered this because I think they only get every five years by
counting college and grad students and the low-ranks of the army who
might move every year.

Only way I'd accept that policy is if I
was one of the user abusers and let the other homeowners subsidize me. Get
a copy of the real bill, read your own meter and see if you are getting
screwed.

It requires a 5-sided socket to open the box for my meter. Although
maybe vice grips would do it. The bill is low anyhow. I'll have to
look for a new bill but I vaguely remember years ago it was 20 dollars
every three months.

Rich256 writes:
Terry wrote:
My bill was 11$. It said my usage was 2 units. I know that is not
gallons.

I expect that the unit is 100 Cubic Foot. About 1500 gallons. Possible
for one person in cool weather.

Most cities have a minimum fee.

Then comes the cost of delivery. If close to a river or lake the cost
can be very low. However, take Los Angeles which brings much of their
water in from the center of the state.

And the Colorado River and the Central California Project
and...

The city of Denver, has a tunnel

More than one.

under the continental divide bringing their Colorado River water in from
100 miles away. Their neighboring city of Aurora came late and the
nearby water rights were gone. Their main supply is on the Arkansas
river near Leadville. Their portion of the water flows to near the city
of Pubelo and then is pumped north over 100 miles. Aurora rate is
something over $4 a thousand gallons.

Las Vegas gets their water from the Colorado River,

Not believed to be true.

same as Denver but they just let it flow to Lake Mead

"to" Lake Mead? Las Vegas is substantially higher than
Lake Mead.

so their cost is much lower than Denver.

"mm" wrote in message
The bill is low anyhow. I'll have to
look for a new bill but I vaguely remember years ago it was 20 dollars
every three months.

If that is the case, no reason to complain or check anything. Just pay and
smile. My bill for three months runs about $110.

Not necessarily true. It many places like, for instance, NYC the funds are
segregated into different accounts, although the "creative" types in
governemnt keep on coming up with new ways that they can bill the Water
Board accounts for services provided by the City.
--
Peace,
BobJ

"Rick Blaine" wrote in message
...
"George E. Cawthon" wrote:

Do not how that would work since water is
usually/often provided by a public utility.

In many communities in the US, the water department is a city or (less
often) a
county department. Any revenue generated by this department goes into the
city
coffers, just like local taxes and police ticket revenue.

"Steve Barker" wrote in message
...
Ours is in gallons. Can't imagine why they would measure water in cubic
anything. Liquids are measured in gallons.

And in CUBIC METERS

wrote:
On Fri, 19 Jan 2007 23:19:29 -0600, "Steve Barker"
wrote:

Ours is in gallons. Can't imagine why they would measure water in cubic
anything. Liquids are measured in gallons.

Water is measured in units. One unit equals 100 cubic feet (hcf)
1 hcf equals 748 gallons

Water is usually measured by volume such as cubic feet, cubic meters,
gallons, liters etc. "units" are just an invention of suppliers. This
reminds me of that sleezy life insurance company that is always
advertising "you can get coverage for only $10/unit"

JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
"Steve Barker" wrote in message
...
Having lived within 300 miles my whole life, I guess I'm am in fact not
familiar with other places water meters. Every place I've ever lived had
read out directly in gallons.


Same here. I don't understand why some nerd with a pocket protector would
bother to create an arbitrary unit of measurement, other than to justify his
job at the water authority.



I don't think it would be the nerd who is responsible. Decisions like
that are often made by the creative ambiguity manager of the marketing
department. And it even extends to stuff like life insurance. You may
have heard that sleezy TV commercial "you can buy life insurance for
only $10/unit".

"George" wrote in message
...
JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
"Steve Barker" wrote in message
...
Having lived within 300 miles my whole life, I guess I'm am in fact not
familiar with other places water meters. Every place I've ever lived
had read out directly in gallons.


Same here. I don't understand why some nerd with a pocket protector would
bother to create an arbitrary unit of measurement, other than to justify
his job at the water authority.

I don't think it would be the nerd who is responsible. Decisions like that
are often made by the creative ambiguity manager of the marketing
department. And it even extends to stuff like life insurance. You may have
heard that sleezy TV commercial "you can buy life insurance for only
$10/unit".


Dilbert's boss is running the world. Seriously. Or, Dogbert.

Harry K wrote:
JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
"Steve Barker" wrote in message
...
Having lived within 300 miles my whole life, I guess I'm am in fact not
familiar with other places water meters. Every place I've ever lived had
read out directly in gallons.

Same here. I don't understand why some nerd with a pocket protector would
bother to create an arbitrary unit of measurement, other than to justify his
job at the water authority.

Because a 'unit' is a much more useable measure for that much volume.
Much easier to look at a bill and see "oh, I used 3 units this month
instead of the usual 1' rather than seeing the volume in thousands of
gallons.

Same reason some items are measured/sold by 'hundred weight' or 'tons'
vice pounds.

Harry K


Not for me. I know how much a gallon is and I can relate to using any
quantity. Using x units of water makes no intuitive sense to me.

A "ton" has a uniform definition.

In order for it to make sense to me I would have to determine what the
"unit" might mean.

Would you buy a car if it was advertised to get "50 miles per unit"?

wrote in message
...
And in CUBIC METERS

But that is 1000 liters, or 1000 kilograms funny how that metric
system simplifies things huh?

Nah we like gallons, yards and pounds.

Ok, take 6 gallons of Pepsi, add 3 yards of Bacardi and drop in 2 pounds of
limes

and you get the worlds biggest Cuba Libre

Rudy wrote:
"Steve Barker" wrote in message
...
Ours is in gallons. Can't imagine why they would measure water in cubic
anything. Liquids are measured in gallons.

And in CUBIC METERS



Around here Acre Foot is quite common (about 326,000 gallons, 1233 cubic
meters). That also happens to be a approximate amount that a family of
4 uses in a year.

That's 27,000+ gallons a month. My house never used a tenth of that with 5
in it.

--
Steve Barker

"Rich256" wrote in message
...

Around here Acre Foot is quite common (about 326,000 gallons, 1233 cubic
meters). That also happens to be a approximate amount that a family of 4
uses in a year.

In article ,
says...

Around here Acre Foot is quite common (about 326,000 gallons, 1233 cubic
meters).

Baloney. What water utility measures *residential* water usage in acre-
feet?? Agricultural or industrial, perhaps. But residential? No way.

That also happens to be a approximate amount that a family of
4 uses in a year.

Baloney again. Do the math.

No, wait, here, I'll do it for you, since you're obviously "challenged"
in that area.

1 a-f = 326000 gallons (you did get that part right -- but that's all)
326000 gallons in a year = 892 gallons PER DAY
Now divide by 4 people...

223 gallons PER PERSON PER DAY.

Baloney.

Steve Barker wrote:
That's 27,000+ gallons a month. My house never used a tenth of that with 5
in it.


Sounds a little high to me, too. I think our
highest one month usage was 23,000 gallons, which
included a lot of irrigation. Usage between
irrigation seasons is normally around 4000
gallons. To be fair, usage varies greatly
throughout the nation.

George writes:

A "ton" has a uniform definition.

Do you mean a short ton, a long ton, or a metric ton?

Dave

In article ,
lid says...
Not for me. I know how much a gallon is and I can relate to using any
quantity. Using x units of water makes no intuitive sense to me.

Only because you haven't troubled yourself to find out what units your
water utility is using.

A "ton" has a uniform definition.

Uh-huh. Right. Which "ton" are you talking about, the one that weighs
2000 pounds, the one that weighs 2240 pounds, or the one that weighs
1000 kilograms?


In order for it to make sense to me I would have to determine what the
"unit" might mean.

So how hard is it, exactly, to call the water utility and ask them what
it means?

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
.net...
In article ,
lid says...
Not for me. I know how much a gallon is and I can relate to using any
quantity. Using x units of water makes no intuitive sense to me.

Only because you haven't troubled yourself to find out what units your
water utility is using.

A "ton" has a uniform definition.

Uh-huh. Right. Which "ton" are you talking about, the one that weighs
2000 pounds, the one that weighs 2240 pounds, or the one that weighs
1000 kilograms?


In order for it to make sense to me I would have to determine what the
"unit" might mean.

So how hard is it, exactly, to call the water utility and ask them what
it means?


That would require a local phonecall, using a telephone, and speaking to
another human being.

In article ,
Steve Barker wrote:
That's 27,000+ gallons a month. My house never used a tenth of that with 5
in it.


I agree that an acre-foot seems hig for annual use for 4 people, but a
tenth of that for 5 comes to about 20 gallons a day per person. Good
for you and your family if yo achieve that, but average residential
use is closer to 100 gallons per person.


--
For every complicated, difficult problem, there is a simple, easy
solution that does not work.

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf.lonestar.org

That works up to 12,000 gal a month for a family of 4. WHEW! Not even, not
here. Ever. And that was with 3+gallon toilets back then. We might have
come close on the month we opened the pool each year. It usually took about
6000 to top it off each year.

--
Steve Barker


"L" wrote in message
...
I agree that an acre-foot seems hig for annual use for 4 people, but a
tenth of that for 5 comes to about 20 gallons a day per person. Good
for you and your family if yo achieve that, but average residential
use is closer to 100 gallons per person.

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
. net...
In article ,
says...

Around here Acre Foot is quite common (about 326,000 gallons, 1233 cubic
meters).

Baloney. What water utility measures *residential* water usage in acre-
feet?? Agricultural or industrial, perhaps. But residential? No way.

That also happens to be a approximate amount that a family of
4 uses in a year.

Baloney again. Do the math.

No, wait, here, I'll do it for you, since you're obviously "challenged"
in that area.

1 a-f = 326000 gallons (you did get that part right -- but that's all)
326000 gallons in a year = 892 gallons PER DAY
Now divide by 4 people...

223 gallons PER PERSON PER DAY.

Baloney.

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
. net...
In article ,
says...

Around here Acre Foot is quite common (about 326,000 gallons, 1233 cubic
meters).

Baloney. What water utility measures *residential* water usage in acre-
feet?? Agricultural or industrial, perhaps. But residential? No way.

That also happens to be a approximate amount that a family of
4 uses in a year.

Baloney again. Do the math.

No, wait, here, I'll do it for you, since you're obviously "challenged"
in that area.

1 a-f = 326000 gallons (you did get that part right -- but that's all)
326000 gallons in a year = 892 gallons PER DAY
Now divide by 4 people...

223 gallons PER PERSON PER DAY.

Baloney.

Here in Las Vegas (desert climate) per capita usage is commonly stated to be
300 gallons per person per day. That is a water utility planning figure and
includes commercial usage and rather heavy residential irrigation usage. In
most areas of the country, 100 gpd is more common as I recall.

My in-house use measured at the water softener is about 100 gpd for two
people. In the summer my total usage goes up to 2500 gallons per day
including the water used to irrigate a large yard.

SJF

Some of these numbers have me scratching my head. Between September
23rd and January 2nd, our two-person household averaged 137 litres per
day; that's 18.2 gallons per person, per day.

We both shower every day, we do an average of two to three loads of
laundry each week, we run the dishwasher once every four to five days
and we flush toilets after use. Nothing, I assume, too far out of the
ordinary.

I realize our consumption falls below most households and twice the
water commission has sent someone out to verify that our meter is
working correctly (no problems found). Still, we would need to
increase our consumption six fold just to bring it up to what is said
to be the national average, and the only way we could do that would be
to leave both kitchen taps running.

Cheers,
Paul

"SJF" wrote in message
In the summer my total usage goes up to 2500 gallons per day including
the water used to irrigate a large yard.

It's the desert. Why irrigate a large yard? Plant sand and rocks.

In article , "SJF" wrote:

Here in Las Vegas (desert climate) per capita usage is commonly stated to be
300 gallons per person per day. That is a water utility planning figure and
includes commercial usage and rather heavy residential irrigation usage. In
most areas of the country, 100 gpd is more common as I recall.

My in-house use measured at the water softener is about 100 gpd for two
people. In the summer my total usage goes up to 2500 gallons per day
including the water used to irrigate a large yard.

If you wanted a large lush yard.... why the hell are you living in a desert?
Quit wasting water.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Doug Miller wrote:
In article ,
says...
Around here Acre Foot is quite common (about 326,000 gallons, 1233 cubic
meters).

Baloney. What water utility measures *residential* water usage in acre-
feet?? Agricultural or industrial, perhaps. But residential? No way.

That also happens to be a approximate amount that a family of
4 uses in a year.

Baloney again. Do the math.

No, wait, here, I'll do it for you, since you're obviously "challenged"
in that area.

1 a-f = 326000 gallons (you did get that part right -- but that's all)
326000 gallons in a year = 892 gallons PER DAY
Now divide by 4 people...

223 gallons PER PERSON PER DAY.

Baloney.



As Will Rogers once said "I only know what I read in the paper".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acre-foot

Why irrigate a yard ANYwhere?

--
Steve Barker


"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
. net...

"SJF" wrote in message
In the summer my total usage goes up to 2500 gallons per day including
the water used to irrigate a large yard.

It's the desert. Why irrigate a large yard? Plant sand and rocks.

Doug Miller wrote:
In article , "SJF" wrote:

Here in Las Vegas (desert climate) per capita usage is commonly stated to be
300 gallons per person per day. That is a water utility planning figure and
includes commercial usage and rather heavy residential irrigation usage. In
most areas of the country, 100 gpd is more common as I recall.

My in-house use measured at the water softener is about 100 gpd for two
people. In the summer my total usage goes up to 2500 gallons per day
including the water used to irrigate a large yard.

If you wanted a large lush yard.... why the hell are you living in a desert?
Quit wasting water.


I have to agree but I think one reasons is that the water is cheap
compared to other places. It flows down the Colorado right into their
back yard.

So if they conserve, where does it go? Back into the Pacific Ocean.

From what I have seen, not many in LV have very much grass. Perhaps
much of that usage is the Casinos with their huge fountains etc. And,
to supply all the tourists with baths and showers!! Lots of water used
in the larger air conditioning systems too.

Doug Miller wrote:
In article ,
lid says...
Not for me. I know how much a gallon is and I can relate to using any
quantity. Using x units of water makes no intuitive sense to me.

Only because you haven't troubled yourself to find out what units your
water utility is using.
A "ton" has a uniform definition.

Uh-huh. Right. Which "ton" are you talking about, the one that weighs
2000 pounds, the one that weighs 2240 pounds, or the one that weighs
1000 kilograms?


Since I am in the US the standard commercial definition of a ton is
2,000 lbs. A 1000 kg mass is spelled "tonne" to distinguish it from
others. The "ton" that is derived from Imperial measurement is noted as
a "long ton" to distinguish it from others.


In order for it to make sense to me I would have to determine what the
"unit" might mean.

So how hard is it, exactly, to call the water utility and ask them what
it means?

So how hard is it, exactly, to just state an actual commonly used volume
such as gallons instead of inventing a unit of measure called "unit"
that requires someone to inquire what it might mean?

It just plain silly to reinvent stuff like that especially in the case
of water there is a really common volume measurement that is recognized
by everyone. What if you walked into a bakery and donuts were priced
$5/unit? or you were interested in a new car and found that the fuel
economy was 25 miles/unit?

JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
"Doug Miller" wrote in message
.net...
In article ,
lid says...
Not for me. I know how much a gallon is and I can relate to using any
quantity. Using x units of water makes no intuitive sense to me.
Only because you haven't troubled yourself to find out what units your
water utility is using.
A "ton" has a uniform definition.
Uh-huh. Right. Which "ton" are you talking about, the one that weighs
2000 pounds, the one that weighs 2240 pounds, or the one that weighs
1000 kilograms?

In order for it to make sense to me I would have to determine what the
"unit" might mean.
So how hard is it, exactly, to call the water utility and ask them what
it means?


That would require a local phonecall, using a telephone, and speaking to
another human being.



And not a problem if there was some sensible reason to do it.

In article , George wrote:

It just plain silly to reinvent stuff like that especially in the case
of water there is a really common volume measurement that is recognized
by everyone. What if you walked into a bakery and donuts were priced
$5/unit? or you were interested in a new car and found that the fuel
economy was 25 miles/unit?

Aound here, Safeway price their donuts by the dozen. However,
Safeway have also redefined the dozen as 14 donuts. Which all
goes to prove that... stuff happens.

--
|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|
| Malcolm Hoar "The more I practice, the luckier I get". |
| Gary Player. |
| http://www.malch.com/ Shpx gur PQN. |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

On Tue, 23 Jan 2007 00:47:16 GMT, Doug Miller
wrote:

In article ,
says...

Around here Acre Foot is quite common (about 326,000 gallons, 1233 cubic
meters).

Baloney. What water utility measures *residential* water usage in acre-
feet?? Agricultural or industrial, perhaps. But residential? No way.

That also happens to be a approximate amount that a family of
4 uses in a year.

Baloney again. Do the math.

No, wait, here, I'll do it for you, since you're obviously "challenged"
in that area.

1 a-f = 326000 gallons (you did get that part right -- but that's all)
326000 gallons in a year = 892 gallons PER DAY
Now divide by 4 people...

223 gallons PER PERSON PER DAY.


That's not far of for water-district budgeting purposes...
For instance:

"...Similarly, while Austin's average gallons per capita per day is
180, the dry year gallons per capita per day used for determining
future demand is 221 (occurring in 1984). ..."

But that's total water use for everything, not household
water use. Whats the design value for septic systems,
120 gallons/bedroom/day, or 60 gallons/person?

On Tue, 23 Jan 2007 05:57:35 GMT, Paul M. Eldridge
wrote:

Some of these numbers have me scratching my head. Between September
23rd and January 2nd, our two-person household averaged 137 litres per
day; that's 18.2 gallons per person, per day.

We both shower every day, we do an average of two to three loads of
laundry each week, we run the dishwasher once every four to five days
and we flush toilets after use. Nothing, I assume, too far out of the
ordinary.

I realize our consumption falls below most households and twice the
water commission has sent someone out to verify that our meter is
working correctly (no problems found). Still, we would need to
increase our consumption six fold just to bring it up to what is said
to be the national average, and the only way we could do that would be
to leave both kitchen taps running.

Cheers,
Paul


If you're the kind of person who basks in the shower,
you can easily run through 30 gallons of water right there.

On Tue, 23 Jan 2007 09:17:19 -0600, "Steve Barker"
wrote:

Why irrigate a yard ANYwhere?


Environmental cooling. A lawn with non-dormant
grass can easily be 10 degrees cooler than the
same surface baked into straw-covered tile.
IF water is cheap enough, this is a reasonable
response to a heat wave.

st areas of the country, 100 gpd is more common as I recall.

My in-house use measured at the water softener is about 100 gpd for two
people. In the summer my total usage goes up to 2500 gallons per day
including the water used to irrigate a large yard.

SJF



which is why all residential irrigation ought to be outlawed. Which it
is getting pretty close to in LV I understand. Stupid ass waste of
drinking water. SHHH, don't tell my wife...