Do contractors bluff their way into men's lives in the same fashion
that they do women?

Or, are men smarter than women on projects?

"MRS. CLEAN" wrote in message
ups.com...

Do contractors bluff their way into men's lives in the same fashion
that they do women?

Or, are men smarter than women on projects?


I think women are sometimes hesitant to keep asking questions until they
understand what they're paying for. I was never totally knowledgeable about
everything I've paid for (major car repairs, furnace/AC, electrical), but
one of my criteria for hiring people has always been to insist on someone
who is willing and able to answer questions.

You can often stack the odds in your favor by getting referrals from other
people who've been happy with a particular contractor. If you can't find
friends who've used a certain type of service, do what someone did in a
large office where I used to work: She put notes on the mirrors in the men's
& women's bathrooms, saying she was looking for a good electrician. The
place was too big and too busy for her to walk around checking with
everyone.

JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
"MRS. CLEAN" wrote in message
ups.com...

Do contractors bluff their way into men's lives in the same fashion
that they do women?

Or, are men smarter than women on projects?


I think women are sometimes hesitant to keep asking questions until they
understand what they're paying for. I was never totally knowledgeable about
everything I've paid for (major car repairs, furnace/AC, electrical), but
one of my criteria for hiring people has always been to insist on someone
who is willing and able to answer questions.

You can often stack the odds in your favor by getting referrals from other
people who've been happy with a particular contractor. If you can't find
friends who've used a certain type of service, do what someone did in a
large office where I used to work: She put notes on the mirrors in the men's
& women's bathrooms, saying she was looking for a good electrician. The
place was too big and too busy for her to walk around checking with
everyone.

I remember asking specifically how long the job would take (electrical
svc panel) and he said "I don't know." He actually refused to give an
estimate on labor. We all know that this job should take 2-3 hrs. He
then said about the same as parts (labor).

That is $333 per hour.

Does it say stupid on my forehead? Don't pee on my leg and tell me
it's raining.

"MRS. CLEAN" wrote in message
ups.com...

JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
"MRS. CLEAN" wrote in message
ups.com...

Do contractors bluff their way into men's lives in the same fashion
that they do women?

Or, are men smarter than women on projects?


I think women are sometimes hesitant to keep asking questions until they
understand what they're paying for. I was never totally knowledgeable
about
everything I've paid for (major car repairs, furnace/AC, electrical), but
one of my criteria for hiring people has always been to insist on someone
who is willing and able to answer questions.

You can often stack the odds in your favor by getting referrals from
other
people who've been happy with a particular contractor. If you can't find
friends who've used a certain type of service, do what someone did in a
large office where I used to work: She put notes on the mirrors in the
men's
& women's bathrooms, saying she was looking for a good electrician. The
place was too big and too busy for her to walk around checking with
everyone.

I remember asking specifically how long the job would take (electrical
svc panel) and he said "I don't know." He actually refused to give an
estimate on labor. We all know that this job should take 2-3 hrs. He
then said about the same as parts (labor).

That is $333 per hour.

Does it say stupid on my forehead? Don't pee on my leg and tell me
it's raining.


That's why it's good to get referrals. Sometimes, there really IS no way of
knowing how long something will take. But, at least you can know ahead of
time that the person you're hiring isn't an asshole. My ex-wife just had a
new wire run from the house to the free standing garage. Looks like it was
done beautifully, based on the parts that are visible. I asked her how much
it cost. She said she hadn't gotten the bill yet! I was only partially
surprised at the idea of working this way, but the electrician is a guy who
did some work for us in the past, and whose prices were VERY reasonable.
So....there's the other side.

"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message
I asked her how much it cost. She said she hadn't gotten the bill yet! I
was only partially surprised at the idea of working this way, but the
electrician is a guy who did some work for us in the past, and whose
prices were VERY reasonable. So....there's the other side.

There are a few contractors that you can trust to work like that. I happen
to have a plumber and an electrician that we use at work. I just tell them
what I want and they do the job at reasonable cost. I may ask for a number
for budgeting a big job, but it is never set in stone. These guys have been
working with us for about 15 years. I'd not do it with anyone I don't have
any experience with.

"MRS. CLEAN" wrote:

JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
"MRS. CLEAN" wrote in message
ups.com...

Do contractors bluff their way into men's lives in the same fashion
that they do women?

Or, are men smarter than women on projects?


I think women are sometimes hesitant to keep asking questions until they
understand what they're paying for. I was never totally knowledgeable about
everything I've paid for (major car repairs, furnace/AC, electrical), but
one of my criteria for hiring people has always been to insist on someone
who is willing and able to answer questions.

You can often stack the odds in your favor by getting referrals from other
people who've been happy with a particular contractor. If you can't find
friends who've used a certain type of service, do what someone did in a
large office where I used to work: She put notes on the mirrors in the men's
& women's bathrooms, saying she was looking for a good electrician. The
place was too big and too busy for her to walk around checking with
everyone.

I remember asking specifically how long the job would take (electrical
svc panel) and he said "I don't know." He actually refused to give an
estimate on labor. We all know that this job should take 2-3 hrs. He
then said about the same as parts (labor).

That is $333 per hour.

Does it say stupid on my forehead? Don't pee on my leg and tell me
it's raining.

It can certainly take longer than 2-3 hours depending on the conditions
and whether it's one electrician working or two. That said I can't think
of many conditions that would make it impossible to give a reasonable
time estimate.

I know working by myself at a modest pace and periodically resting when
my carpal tunnel was making my hands numb, it took me about 6 hours to
complete my panel replacement under decent working conditions.

Pete C.

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
news:AEk6h.2764$dz.2038@trndny09...

"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message
I asked her how much it cost. She said she hadn't gotten the bill yet! I
was only partially surprised at the idea of working this way, but the
electrician is a guy who did some work for us in the past, and whose
prices were VERY reasonable. So....there's the other side.

There are a few contractors that you can trust to work like that. I
happen to have a plumber and an electrician that we use at work. I just
tell them what I want and they do the job at reasonable cost. I may ask
for a number for budgeting a big job, but it is never set in stone. These
guys have been working with us for about 15 years. I'd not do it with
anyone I don't have any experience with.


Send me the plumber! I thought I had a good one, but he's lost his mind
recently.

In my old house, the kitchen was right above the laundry room, and the old
iron pipes were set up like this:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v21/Bascoe/image5.gif

They were constantly clogging, and some were installed low enough to kill
anyone taller than 5'10". The plumber was already at the house doing a
warranty repair on my water heater, so I asked him how much to replace all
the iron with PVC, and re-route a couple of them. He said something like
$450. I said "Wanna do it right now?" Two hours later, done.

Three years later, new (used) house: Same basic arrangement. I called the
same plumber, who lives 5 minutes away. He takes a look and says $1500 to
$1800! I said I understood that the job wasn't absolutely identical, but why
THAT much more? He says "I was already at your other house. No travel
charges. And, I don't recall doing it that cheap". I save bills. I went and
got it and showed it to him. Didn't matter. I said "No thanks".

Travel charges - I could charter a private jet cheaper for a short business
trip.

MRS. CLEAN wrote:
Do contractors bluff their way into men's lives in the same fashion
that they do women?

Or, are men smarter than women on projects?

I don't see the point in stereotyping contractors anymore than
stereotyping women.

R

Many stereotypes about women are correct.

Why do we need to learn the job?

Why do we need to get several estimates?

Because the stereotype on contractors are true.

RicodJour wrote:
MRS. CLEAN wrote:
Do contractors bluff their way into men's lives in the same fashion
that they do women?

Or, are men smarter than women on projects?

I don't see the point in stereotyping contractors anymore than
stereotyping women.

R

MRS. CLEAN wrote:
Many stereotypes about women are correct.

Some. Maybe. For some women.

Why do we need to learn the job?

You don't.

Why do we need to get several estimates?

Because it's the prudent thing to do when you don't have a contractor
that you can trust - and that also trusts you.

Because the stereotype on contractors are true.

You should be aware that such a crappy attitude about ALL contractors,
and feeling put upon because of your gender in such situations, that
your attitude comes through loud and clear. In other words, I'd add
five hundred to the price of a small job because you'd be a pain in the
ass to work with. And frankly, I'd probably never even get back to you
or I'd give your number to the worst contractor I knew.

Building a relationship with a contractor is only important if you
intend to use them again. And if they would ever work with you again.
Think about it.

R

MRS. CLEAN wrote:
Many stereotypes about women are correct.

Why do we need to learn the job?

Why do we need to get several estimates?

Because the stereotype on contractors are true.

RicodJour wrote:
MRS. CLEAN wrote:
Do contractors bluff their way into men's lives in the same fashion
that they do women?

Or, are men smarter than women on projects?

I don't see the point in stereotyping contractors anymore than
stereotyping women.

R

It isn't stereotypes of women so much as that women in general have a
totally different life experience. Few of them have the 'fix-it'
background to be knowledgeable about the building trades. As for the
'How much':

I won't sign a contract on a 'cost plus' basis if it includes labor as
part of the cost - that is opening the door to a raid on your pocket
book. Now if it is 'cost plus a perecentage of material costs' that is
a different matter.

I prefer contracts on the 'total cost' so I know exactly what I will be
paying. Of course I expect the contractor to build in a fudge factor
and I may pay more than a 'cost plus' but...

Harry K

MRS. CLEAN wrote:

I remember asking specifically how long the job would take (electrical
svc panel) and he said "I don't know." He actually refused to give an
estimate on labor. We all know that this job should take 2-3 hrs. He
then said about the same as parts (labor).

That is $333 per hour.

Does it say stupid on my forehead? Don't pee on my leg and tell me
it's raining.

I can't tell about the forehead from here. Post a picture.

The "we all know" part doesn't compute. Job conditions and electrician
speed vary greatly. If you take your car in for service they have a
sign that reads that they'll compute it hourly or by the book rate.
Service panel changes are close to a book rate around this area. If
your electrician knows that everybody and his brother electrician get
$1500 for a service panel (or whatever), then there's not a big
incentive for him to knock the price down. They're running a business,
right?

Some contractor's are loathe to estimate hours on something they're
bidding as a lump sum because other people, you for example, might use
those numbers against them in an effort to chisel them down.

Find a contractor you can trust, try not to be too much of a pain in
the ass, and move on to the next windmill.

R

Harry K wrote:

I won't sign a contract on a 'cost plus' basis if it includes labor as
part of the cost - that is opening the door to a raid on your pocket
book. Now if it is 'cost plus a perecentage of material costs' that is
a different matter.

I don't follow your logic. A cost plus arrangement is only a good idea
if you have a contractor you know, have worked with before, and you
trust. Labor is a cost to the contractor. Labor can be the biggest
variable. Most contractors wouldn't have the foggiest idea of how to
do a cost plus on materials only with a fixed labor cost. How can
materials be an unknown and the labor be known? That makes no sense.

I prefer contracts on the 'total cost' so I know exactly what I will be
paying. Of course I expect the contractor to build in a fudge factor
and I may pay more than a 'cost plus' but...

I think what you're looking to do is to have a cost plus arrangement,
including labor, and have an upset or not-to-exceed price capping your
risk. The standard arrangement is to have a bonus for the contractor
if he brings the project in under the cap. In other words, he'd get
more money for working fewer hours, and that money is in his pocket not
the labor crew.

Google around a little bit, you'll definitely find a better way of
writing your contracts that won't alienate contractors.

R

"MRS. CLEAN" wrote in message
oups.com...

Many stereotypes about women are correct.

Why do we need to learn the job?

Why do we need to get several estimates?

Because the stereotype on contractors are true.

Not just for women though. Unless you are well aware of who you are dealing
with, proceed with caution. I'm getting estimates on a siding job. Large
old building, more than the typical house. I'm getting at least three
quotes. So far, one is $35,000, next is $48,000, and another is $89,000.
How do you decide? All of these companies have been in business for 20+
years, so you figure they know what is involved.

My guess is the cheapest does not realize the complexity, the highest is
over allowing for little problems that will come up. The middle price, I'm
just not sure about. If two were close, I'd decide on the basis of who I
thought would be the better contractor. Give or take a thousand dollars is
not much on a job of that magnitude. But a difference of over 200% makes
you wonder just who is right.

Another factor is the time to quote. One took a week, one took over two
weeks and two visits, another took less than four hours. Does that
determine who is the most interested or the most competent?

In article AEk6h.2764$dz.2038@trndny09, Edwin Pawlowski says...


"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message
I asked her how much it cost. She said she hadn't gotten the bill yet! I
was only partially surprised at the idea of working this way, but the
electrician is a guy who did some work for us in the past, and whose
prices were VERY reasonable. So....there's the other side.

There are a few contractors that you can trust to work like that. I happen
to have a plumber and an electrician that we use at work. I just tell them
what I want and they do the job at reasonable cost. I may ask for a number
for budgeting a big job, but it is never set in stone. These guys have been
working with us for about 15 years. I'd not do it with anyone I don't have
any experience with.



I have a general contractor/carpenter like that, although we do set up a
specific contract for big jobs. And have set aside certain jobs as cost plus,
where he and I anticipate possible issues on opening up. Right now he's setting
up some new windows - on the older addition we'll be looking for possible
carpenter ant damage, and will decide if some framing wood replacement will need
to happen or not. If not, the price is that already set. If so, it will be
more depending on what we find. There has to be some decent way to handle that
kind of thing, and it can't all be set before the walls are opened up.

I also have an electrician that I just tell him what I want. I even have to
chase him to bill me sometimes... he knows when he gets to me I'll pay. Found
him through that contractor.

After some time in this area, as a homeowner I've built up some experience, and
follow the gambler's creed - knowing when to hold 'em, when to fold 'em.
Keeping the good cards, so to speak.

The only plumber I've found so far that I really trust is a big outfit that is a
little pricey and gives written estimates before any work; so I'm doing that.
The work is always good though. Maybe down the road I'll find a different
arrangement and save some bucks.

So, just do the best you can do with what you find, and recognize and keep the
good cards. If you think they're all *bad*, that will never happen.

If I don't have somewhere to start on a big job, like when I had the house
painted, the driveway repaved, and some foundation work, I got several
estimates. It's not just to compare the prices (and you dont' necessarily want
the lowest! But the highest may be someone on the take or just trying to price
themselves out the of job), it's also to get a read on what kind of person this
is. Kind of like a job interview. If he (or she, had a married set of masons!)
seems on top of things, and communicates well answering questions and offers
reasonable opinions and ideas, doesn't push or try to "sell" me, it's probably a
good card. I've had pretty good luck with that approach.

What part do *I* do? I value my time, so I do the part that I like only, that I
need to do often enough to actually accumalate some skill and knowledge. That's
the painting/staining and prep and related stuff. Yes, even running a
paintbrush or roller up and down takes a feeling for the task and some skill. I
wouldn't do my own tiling, although I find the task attractive. I just don't do
it enough, and it's too permanent, for me not to want a pro to do it. Maybe
when I'm retired and have had a chance to do some standalone projects like table
tops or accent walls.

BTW, I'm also a single woman.

Banty

In article .com, "MRS. CLEAN" wrote:

Why do we need to get several estimates?

Because the stereotype on contractors are true.

Mrs Clean is, in fact, correct. If you check with the BBB
and other consumer organizations, certain classes of
businesses generate many time more complaints than others.

Cell phone companies, cable companies and contractors
are ranked amongst the worst.

Fast food outlets are ranked among the best. Despite
the crap quality of the burgers, consumers seem to
feel that they get good and consistent value :-)

Contractors do get a bad rap and perhaps that's unfair
to the really good ones. But, for the group as a whole,
the bad rap is justified by the hard data.

--
|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|
| Malcolm Hoar "The more I practice, the luckier I get". |
| Gary Player. |
| http://www.malch.com/ Shpx gur PQN. |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Banty" wrote in message
...

After some time in this area, as a homeowner I've built up some
experience, and
follow the gambler's creed - knowing when to hold 'em, when to fold 'em.
Keeping the good cards, so to speak.

If you're anywhere near Rochester NY, I know an auto repair shop you'd love.
They used to be 10 minutes away, but they moved to be closer to where the 3
guys live. Now, they're 35 minutes away. They lost pretty much NO customers.
People drive that distance even just for an oil change.

In article . com, MRS. CLEAN
says...


JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
"MRS. CLEAN" wrote in message
ups.com...

Do contractors bluff their way into men's lives in the same fashion
that they do women?

Or, are men smarter than women on projects?


I think women are sometimes hesitant to keep asking questions until they
understand what they're paying for. I was never totally knowledgeable about
everything I've paid for (major car repairs, furnace/AC, electrical), but
one of my criteria for hiring people has always been to insist on someone
who is willing and able to answer questions.

This is the A-number one thing that works for me - someone who I can communicate
with. Someone who has some enthusiasm about what he's doing is a plus.


You can often stack the odds in your favor by getting referrals from other
people who've been happy with a particular contractor. If you can't find
friends who've used a certain type of service, do what someone did in a
large office where I used to work: She put notes on the mirrors in the men's
& women's bathrooms, saying she was looking for a good electrician. The
place was too big and too busy for her to walk around checking with
everyone.

I remember asking specifically how long the job would take (electrical
svc panel) and he said "I don't know." He actually refused to give an
estimate on labor. We all know that this job should take 2-3 hrs. He
then said about the same as parts (labor).

That is $333 per hour.

Does it say stupid on my forehead? Don't pee on my leg and tell me
it's raining.



"We all know" ...what?

Maybe he honestly didn't know - he may find he needs to add circuits, etc., if
he finds poor work there before him.

Or maybe he's a jerk.

Either way, thank him, jot some notes on the estimate and keep it with the
written estimate, then call two more electricians.

Maybe he's judged you as a PITA and has given the price he feels makes it
worthwhile. Or not. You might be the sweetest lady in the world.

You just have to do some groundwork when you hire someone. Just like any other
business or person that hires work out or obtains employees. Dunno how you
expect to get around that. Contractors are humans, not plug-compatible fixit
unitoids.

Banty

In article , JoeSpareBedroom says...

"Banty" wrote in message
...

After some time in this area, as a homeowner I've built up some
experience, and
follow the gambler's creed - knowing when to hold 'em, when to fold 'em.
Keeping the good cards, so to speak.

If you're anywhere near Rochester NY, I know an auto repair shop you'd love.
They used to be 10 minutes away, but they moved to be closer to where the 3
guys live. Now, they're 35 minutes away. They lost pretty much NO customers.
People drive that distance even just for an oil change.



Oh funny, I *did* live there, but it's too late - I used to work for the Great
Yellow Father; now I've moved and work for the Big Blue.

Banty

"Banty" wrote in message
...
In article . com, MRS.
CLEAN
says...


JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
"MRS. CLEAN" wrote in message
ups.com...

Do contractors bluff their way into men's lives in the same fashion
that they do women?

Or, are men smarter than women on projects?


I think women are sometimes hesitant to keep asking questions until they
understand what they're paying for. I was never totally knowledgeable
about
everything I've paid for (major car repairs, furnace/AC, electrical),
but
one of my criteria for hiring people has always been to insist on
someone
who is willing and able to answer questions.

This is the A-number one thing that works for me - someone who I can
communicate
with. Someone who has some enthusiasm about what he's doing is a plus.


I've met a few carpenters who were great mathematicians. It irks me when I
hear people say "Some kids aren't college material - they end up in the
trades". Excuse me? Like being a master carpenter is 3 steps below a
stockbroker?


Maybe he honestly didn't know - he may find he needs to add circuits,
etc., if
he finds poor work there before him.

My previous house was a perfect example of endless unknowns. The first
electrical mods I made were in the garage, where I found modern wire. So, I
figured "OK....next, put a dimmer in the dining room - 20 minutes". Not. The
rest of the house had this ancient wire whose insulation crumbled when it
was exposed the light of day after removing the switch covers. Dimmer: 2
hours.

I'd put it this way:

99% of contractors give the others a bad name.

Mrs. Clean


Malcolm Hoar wrote:
In article .com, "MRS. CLEAN" wrote:

Why do we need to get several estimates?

Because the stereotype on contractors are true.

Mrs Clean is, in fact, correct. If you check with the BBB
and other consumer organizations, certain classes of
businesses generate many time more complaints than others.

Cell phone companies, cable companies and contractors
are ranked amongst the worst.

Fast food outlets are ranked among the best. Despite
the crap quality of the burgers, consumers seem to
feel that they get good and consistent value :-)

Contractors do get a bad rap and perhaps that's unfair
to the really good ones. But, for the group as a whole,
the bad rap is justified by the hard data.

--
|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|
| Malcolm Hoar "The more I practice, the luckier I get". |
| Gary Player. |
| http://www.malch.com/ Shpx gur PQN. |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

In article .com, MRS. CLEAN
says...


I'd put it this way:

99% of contractors give the others a bad name.

Mrs. Clean

I'd put it this way:

If you have problems with 99% of just about anything, the problem is with you.

Banty

Banty wrote:
In article .com, MRS. CLEAN
says...


I'd put it this way:

99% of contractors give the others a bad name.

Mrs. Clean

I'd put it this way:

If you have problems with 99% of just about anything, the problem is with you.

Banty


LOL

I'd also put it with way:

99% of attorneys give the others a bad name.

Am I the only one who thinks Mrs. C is just trying to pick a fight
lately? Same with her rant about laying tile. No advice asked for or
needed -- apparently just needs to vent and insult as many trades and
genders as she can while she's at it.

Jo Ann

Banty wrote:
In article .com, MRS. CLEAN
says...


I'd put it this way:

99% of contractors give the others a bad name.

Mrs. Clean

I'd put it this way:

If you have problems with 99% of just about anything, the problem is with you.

Banty

LOL

I am collecting antedoctal evidence, but it appears there is objective
evidence to support my experiences.

Regards,
Mrs. Clean


wrote:
Am I the only one who thinks Mrs. C is just trying to pick a fight
lately? Same with her rant about laying tile. No advice asked for or
needed -- apparently just needs to vent and insult as many trades and
genders as she can while she's at it.

Jo Ann

Banty wrote:
In article .com, MRS. CLEAN
says...


I'd put it this way:

99% of contractors give the others a bad name.

Mrs. Clean

I'd put it this way:

If you have problems with 99% of just about anything, the problem is with you.

Banty

MRS. CLEAN wrote:

I am collecting antedoctal evidence, but it appears there is objective
evidence to support my experiences.

I'm surprised that you could type "objective" without bursting into
flames or melting or whatever it is *you people* do when confronting
gross irony.

If anyone really believes any of the BS the OP jamoke foments, check
out their posting history. Sometimes it's a guy, sometimes it's a
girl, sometimes you just don't care. Same verbiage and tone - same
person. Read more than a few posts and you'll see the person sees
conspiracies around every corner. I'm shocked (s)he(it) lets
contractors through the door in the first place.

R

wrote:
On 14 Nov 2006 06:11:36 -0800, "MRS. CLEAN"
wrote:


Do contractors bluff their way into men's lives in the same fashion
that they do women?

Pretty much. We sneak up on everyone we can.


Or, are men smarter than women on projects?

Nope. The dumbest are the contractors themselves. Be better off as
a civil servant with a whopping great, indexed pension.

Ken


I think I figured out Mrs. C's requirement.....

she wants the job done in the fashion of the typical high bidder but
at a cost of the low bid.

Mrs. C you can have the job done

fast, cheap or good ......pick two

this rule holds true pretty much all of the time

unless you are extremely lucky, then you might get all three

cheers
Bob

On Tue, 14 Nov 2006 20:13:11 GMT, wrote:

Nope. The dumbest are the contractors themselves. Be better off as
a civil servant with a whopping great, indexed pension.

Ken

Until the fund is robbed blind and then abandoned for a "newer, better
pension" - later to be plundered....

--
Oren

"Well, it doesn't happen all the time, but when it happens, it happens constantly."

In article . com, MRS. CLEAN
says...


LOL

I am collecting antedoctal evidence, but it appears there is objective
evidence to support my experiences.

Regards,
Mrs. Clean


What - one person mentions that BBB shows a lot of contractor complaints?
Nothing about what number panned out to be real issues, what the total number of
jobs was, if customer expectations were in line with reality, or anything like
that?

Oh yeah - you heard what you want to hear, one poster had something on that
order; you're set.

I, and others, have told you some approaches to get *good* folks working for
you. I think you've also pretty much let on that your expectations may be out
of line.

But you'd rather believe your 99% number and strut around and laugh about it. I
mean, certainly there's room for reasonable complaints and concerns about this,
but not like you're doing here.

OK, whatever, whatever floats your boat, but you're being a crotchety jerk about
this and and probably getting your jollies pulling our chains a bit. And any
credibility you had is going down the toilet.

Banty

"RicodJour" wrote in message
oups.com...
MRS. CLEAN wrote:

I am collecting antedoctal evidence, but it appears there is objective
evidence to support my experiences.

I'm surprised that you could type "objective" without bursting into
flames or melting or whatever it is *you people* do when confronting
gross irony.

You know, it *IS* possible that you could randomly pick 3 contractors out of
the yellow pages, and end up picking 3 awful ones. If you happened to be
looking for someone to deal with wet basement problems, the likelihood of
picking bad ones would be multiplied exponentially. If you had this
experience, then you could that 100% of them seemed shifty to you.

Nobody can beat these odds, unless they get estimates from every available
contractor, or get referrals that improve the odds.

On 14 Nov 2006 12:24:15 -0800, "RicodJour"
wrote:
conspiracies around every corner. I'm shocked (s)he(it) lets
contractors through the door in the first place.

R

Commonly referred to as a SHIM.........
--
Oren

"Well, it doesn't happen all the time, but when it happens, it happens constantly."

In article , "JoeSpareBedroom" wrote:
"RicodJour" wrote in message
roups.com...
MRS. CLEAN wrote:

I am collecting antedoctal evidence, but it appears there is objective
evidence to support my experiences.

I'm surprised that you could type "objective" without bursting into
flames or melting or whatever it is *you people* do when confronting
gross irony.

You know, it *IS* possible that you could randomly pick 3 contractors out of
the yellow pages, and end up picking 3 awful ones. If you happened to be
looking for someone to deal with wet basement problems, the likelihood of
picking bad ones would be multiplied exponentially. If you had this
experience, then you could that 100% of them seemed shifty to you.

Yes, but the fact is, the industry *does* have a problem.

There is plenty of statistically significant evidence
available on-line if you care to look for it, much of it
from credible sources. It tends to be a few years out of
date but that's the reality of aggregated and quality
controlled data. Here's one example:

http://money.cnn.com/2003/11/24/pf/c...ints/index.htm

and another:

http://www.bbb.org/alerts/article.asp?ID=510

I'm not endorsing Mrs Clean's 99% claim which is clearly
over the top, but evidence of a problem is hard and real.

--
|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|
| Malcolm Hoar "The more I practice, the luckier I get". |
| Gary Player. |
| http://www.malch.com/ Shpx gur PQN. |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Malcolm Hoar" wrote in message
...
In article , "JoeSpareBedroom"
wrote:
"RicodJour" wrote in message
groups.com...
MRS. CLEAN wrote:

I am collecting antedoctal evidence, but it appears there is objective
evidence to support my experiences.

I'm surprised that you could type "objective" without bursting into
flames or melting or whatever it is *you people* do when confronting
gross irony.

You know, it *IS* possible that you could randomly pick 3 contractors out
of
the yellow pages, and end up picking 3 awful ones. If you happened to be
looking for someone to deal with wet basement problems, the likelihood of
picking bad ones would be multiplied exponentially. If you had this
experience, then you could that 100% of them seemed shifty to you.

Yes, but the fact is, the industry *does* have a problem.

I'm not disputing that. I'm agreeing.

While shopping for a roofer recently, I found out that an acquaintance did
that kind of work. Thinking I could save a little money, I had the guy come
out and take a look. He showed up one day to look. He showed up a week later
to measure. He showed up 3 days later to tell me he'd measured. On that day,
I mentioned that my bathroom fan was jury-rigged to a regular roof vent, and
that I'd like to route it to a vent made for the purpose. He gave me this
blank stare and said he'd have to find out more about it. He was obviously
clueless. I decided to mull over this fact, and think about how much of a
problem it could be. I decided it could be a huge problem, and I'll be using
someone else - a real live company that's been around forever. Mr. Less
Expensive got all bent out of shape when I told him my reasons. By the way,
when I got 3 other estimates, all 3 people showed me pictures of fan vents.

This is a mild example, but who knows what sort of train wreck could've
occurred?

Malcolm Hoar wrote:

Yes, but the fact is, the industry *does* have a problem.

I see. You're differentiating, stereotyping, based on industry instead
of race or creed. Most enlightened of you. If you don't mind, would
you please point out an industry that *doesn't* have a problem?

There is plenty of statistically significant evidence
available on-line if you care to look for it, much of it
from credible sources. It tends to be a few years out of
date but that's the reality of aggregated and quality
controlled data. Here's one example:

http://money.cnn.com/2003/11/24/pf/c...ints/index.htm

and another:

http://www.bbb.org/alerts/article.asp?ID=510

I'm not endorsing Mrs Clean's 99% claim which is clearly
over the top, but evidence of a problem is hard and real.

You're preaching to the choir, brother. As in most everything in life,
there is a small percentage of crooked people that taint any, and
every, industry. It has absolutely nothing to do with the troll
posting, other than being convenient fodder for people without the
creativity to come up with something original.

R

In article .com, "RicodJour" wrote:
Malcolm Hoar wrote:

Yes, but the fact is, the industry *does* have a problem.

I see. You're differentiating, stereotyping, based on industry instead
of race or creed. Most enlightened of you.

Ummm, yes, that is exactly what I'm saying. Sorry if it
offends you. But, like most other people (ooops, more
shocking stereotyping) I take a different approach to
buying say:

* A loaf of bread
* A new roof
* A used automobile
* A laptop computer
* A mortgage
* An attorney to defend me against frivolous charges of
industrial stereotyping.

because each of those industries/markets has its own
set of characteristics and issues.

If you don't mind, would
you please point out an industry that *doesn't* have a problem?

The rhetorical questions industry, apparently.

--
|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|
| Malcolm Hoar "The more I practice, the luckier I get". |
| Gary Player. |
| http://www.malch.com/ Shpx gur PQN. |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

MRS. CLEAN wrote:
Do contractors bluff their way into men's lives in the same fashion
that they do women?

Or, are men smarter than women on projects?



This thread got me wondering if anyone can offer comments about whether
any seriously useful contractor selection help can be gotten from
Angie's List?

http://www.angieslist.com/AngiesList/

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia
(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
The speed of light is 1.8*10^12 furlongs per fortnight.

Malcolm Hoar wrote:
"RicodJour" wrote:
Malcolm Hoar wrote:

Yes, but the fact is, the industry *does* have a problem.

I see. You're differentiating, stereotyping, based on industry instead
of race or creed. Most enlightened of you.

Ummm, yes, that is exactly what I'm saying. Sorry if it
offends you. But, like most other people (ooops, more
shocking stereotyping) I take a different approach to
buying say:

* A loaf of bread
* A new roof
* A used automobile
* A laptop computer
* A mortgage
* An attorney to defend me against frivolous charges of
industrial stereotyping.

Exactly! In other words you _learn_! You don't base your behavior on
some preconceived notion. You tailor your behavior to fit the
situation. If the OP could only take your cue. Instead of spewing
about what the other people do wrong, and maybe focusing a bit on what
_they're_ doing wrong, I bet you that they'd learn too! Wouldn't that
be great?

Next time you're in the market for one of those things you listed, try
coping a major attitude when dealing with the person on the other side.
Let me know how the transaction turns out.*

I knew you only stereotyped because the cool kids are doing it.

R

* If you're insane enough to take that challenge, whatever you do,
DON'T eat the bread!

http://www.bbb.org/alerts/article.asp?ID=510

I'm not endorsing Mrs Clean's 99% claim which is clearly
over the top, but evidence of a problem is hard and real.

You're preaching to the choir, brother. As in most everything in life,
there is a small percentage of crooked people that taint any, and
every, industry. It has absolutely nothing to do with the troll
posting, other than being convenient fodder for people without the
creativity to come up with something original.

Just to add my experience...

It is ALWAYS cheaper for me to do ANY job I need around my home. Even if I
do it wrong and need to tear it out ten times, it's still cheaper.

Why? Because nobody will even return a phonecall to discuss the job, let
alone come and see the job.

It took a year of active looking to find someone to build my garage. I had
to wait a year before they started.

I made several calls to companies in the Yellow Pages to finish my basement
and have yet to get a call back. My message? "This is Steve at 555-1212. I'm
looking to have my basement finished. It's 18'x24', insulated and vapor
barrier. No ceiling and concrete floor. Can you get back to me to make
arrangements for this please?"

I want to add a 12'x12' to 15'x15' solarium at the rear of my home and I'm
dreading the work I'll put into it - either trying to find someone, or doing
it myself.

In article .com, "RicodJour" wrote:

Ummm, yes, that is exactly what I'm saying. Sorry if it
offends you. But, like most other people (ooops, more
shocking stereotyping) I take a different approach to
buying say:

* A loaf of bread
* A new roof
* A used automobile
* A laptop computer
* A mortgage
* An attorney to defend me against frivolous charges of
industrial stereotyping.

Exactly! In other words you _learn_! You don't base your behavior on
some preconceived notion. You tailor your behavior to fit the
situation. If the OP could only take your cue. Instead of spewing
about what the other people do wrong, and maybe focusing a bit on what
_they're_ doing wrong, I bet you that they'd learn too! Wouldn't that
be great?

I have preconceived notions too. They're largely based on
accumulated experience -- my own plus that derived from
other trusted sources (individual and institutional).

I hope that they evolve from time to time as new data
surface.

--
|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|
| Malcolm Hoar "The more I practice, the luckier I get". |
| Gary Player. |
| http://www.malch.com/ Shpx gur PQN. |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

RicodJour wrote:

You should be aware that such a crappy attitude about ALL contractors,
and feeling put upon because of your gender in such situations, that
your attitude comes through loud and clear. In other words, I'd add
five hundred to the price of a small job because you'd be a pain in
the ass to work with. And frankly, I'd probably never even get back
to you or I'd give your number to the worst contractor I knew.


Then how do you explain the "official" super-double-secret calendar for
contractors I recently saw?

It had no Mondays on it.