Do contractors bluff their way into men's lives in the same fashion
that they do women?

Or, are men smarter than women on projects?

"MRS. CLEAN" wrote in message
ups.com...

Do contractors bluff their way into men's lives in the same fashion
that they do women?

Or, are men smarter than women on projects?


I think women are sometimes hesitant to keep asking questions until they
understand what they're paying for. I was never totally knowledgeable about
everything I've paid for (major car repairs, furnace/AC, electrical), but
one of my criteria for hiring people has always been to insist on someone
who is willing and able to answer questions.

You can often stack the odds in your favor by getting referrals from other
people who've been happy with a particular contractor. If you can't find
friends who've used a certain type of service, do what someone did in a
large office where I used to work: She put notes on the mirrors in the men's
& women's bathrooms, saying she was looking for a good electrician. The
place was too big and too busy for her to walk around checking with
everyone.

JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
"MRS. CLEAN" wrote in message
ups.com...

Do contractors bluff their way into men's lives in the same fashion
that they do women?

Or, are men smarter than women on projects?


I think women are sometimes hesitant to keep asking questions until they
understand what they're paying for. I was never totally knowledgeable about
everything I've paid for (major car repairs, furnace/AC, electrical), but
one of my criteria for hiring people has always been to insist on someone
who is willing and able to answer questions.

You can often stack the odds in your favor by getting referrals from other
people who've been happy with a particular contractor. If you can't find
friends who've used a certain type of service, do what someone did in a
large office where I used to work: She put notes on the mirrors in the men's
& women's bathrooms, saying she was looking for a good electrician. The
place was too big and too busy for her to walk around checking with
everyone.

I remember asking specifically how long the job would take (electrical
svc panel) and he said "I don't know." He actually refused to give an
estimate on labor. We all know that this job should take 2-3 hrs. He
then said about the same as parts (labor).

That is $333 per hour.

Does it say stupid on my forehead? Don't pee on my leg and tell me
it's raining.

"MRS. CLEAN" wrote in message
ups.com...

JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
"MRS. CLEAN" wrote in message
ups.com...

Do contractors bluff their way into men's lives in the same fashion
that they do women?

Or, are men smarter than women on projects?


I think women are sometimes hesitant to keep asking questions until they
understand what they're paying for. I was never totally knowledgeable
about
everything I've paid for (major car repairs, furnace/AC, electrical), but
one of my criteria for hiring people has always been to insist on someone
who is willing and able to answer questions.

You can often stack the odds in your favor by getting referrals from
other
people who've been happy with a particular contractor. If you can't find
friends who've used a certain type of service, do what someone did in a
large office where I used to work: She put notes on the mirrors in the
men's
& women's bathrooms, saying she was looking for a good electrician. The
place was too big and too busy for her to walk around checking with
everyone.

I remember asking specifically how long the job would take (electrical
svc panel) and he said "I don't know." He actually refused to give an
estimate on labor. We all know that this job should take 2-3 hrs. He
then said about the same as parts (labor).

That is $333 per hour.

Does it say stupid on my forehead? Don't pee on my leg and tell me
it's raining.


That's why it's good to get referrals. Sometimes, there really IS no way of
knowing how long something will take. But, at least you can know ahead of
time that the person you're hiring isn't an asshole. My ex-wife just had a
new wire run from the house to the free standing garage. Looks like it was
done beautifully, based on the parts that are visible. I asked her how much
it cost. She said she hadn't gotten the bill yet! I was only partially
surprised at the idea of working this way, but the electrician is a guy who
did some work for us in the past, and whose prices were VERY reasonable.
So....there's the other side.

"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message
I asked her how much it cost. She said she hadn't gotten the bill yet! I
was only partially surprised at the idea of working this way, but the
electrician is a guy who did some work for us in the past, and whose
prices were VERY reasonable. So....there's the other side.

There are a few contractors that you can trust to work like that. I happen
to have a plumber and an electrician that we use at work. I just tell them
what I want and they do the job at reasonable cost. I may ask for a number
for budgeting a big job, but it is never set in stone. These guys have been
working with us for about 15 years. I'd not do it with anyone I don't have
any experience with.

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
news:AEk6h.2764$dz.2038@trndny09...

"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message
I asked her how much it cost. She said she hadn't gotten the bill yet! I
was only partially surprised at the idea of working this way, but the
electrician is a guy who did some work for us in the past, and whose
prices were VERY reasonable. So....there's the other side.

There are a few contractors that you can trust to work like that. I
happen to have a plumber and an electrician that we use at work. I just
tell them what I want and they do the job at reasonable cost. I may ask
for a number for budgeting a big job, but it is never set in stone. These
guys have been working with us for about 15 years. I'd not do it with
anyone I don't have any experience with.


Send me the plumber! I thought I had a good one, but he's lost his mind
recently.

In my old house, the kitchen was right above the laundry room, and the old
iron pipes were set up like this:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v21/Bascoe/image5.gif

They were constantly clogging, and some were installed low enough to kill
anyone taller than 5'10". The plumber was already at the house doing a
warranty repair on my water heater, so I asked him how much to replace all
the iron with PVC, and re-route a couple of them. He said something like
$450. I said "Wanna do it right now?" Two hours later, done.

Three years later, new (used) house: Same basic arrangement. I called the
same plumber, who lives 5 minutes away. He takes a look and says $1500 to
$1800! I said I understood that the job wasn't absolutely identical, but why
THAT much more? He says "I was already at your other house. No travel
charges. And, I don't recall doing it that cheap". I save bills. I went and
got it and showed it to him. Didn't matter. I said "No thanks".

Travel charges - I could charter a private jet cheaper for a short business
trip.

In article AEk6h.2764$dz.2038@trndny09, Edwin Pawlowski says...


"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message
I asked her how much it cost. She said she hadn't gotten the bill yet! I
was only partially surprised at the idea of working this way, but the
electrician is a guy who did some work for us in the past, and whose
prices were VERY reasonable. So....there's the other side.

There are a few contractors that you can trust to work like that. I happen
to have a plumber and an electrician that we use at work. I just tell them
what I want and they do the job at reasonable cost. I may ask for a number
for budgeting a big job, but it is never set in stone. These guys have been
working with us for about 15 years. I'd not do it with anyone I don't have
any experience with.



I have a general contractor/carpenter like that, although we do set up a
specific contract for big jobs. And have set aside certain jobs as cost plus,
where he and I anticipate possible issues on opening up. Right now he's setting
up some new windows - on the older addition we'll be looking for possible
carpenter ant damage, and will decide if some framing wood replacement will need
to happen or not. If not, the price is that already set. If so, it will be
more depending on what we find. There has to be some decent way to handle that
kind of thing, and it can't all be set before the walls are opened up.

I also have an electrician that I just tell him what I want. I even have to
chase him to bill me sometimes... he knows when he gets to me I'll pay. Found
him through that contractor.

After some time in this area, as a homeowner I've built up some experience, and
follow the gambler's creed - knowing when to hold 'em, when to fold 'em.
Keeping the good cards, so to speak.

The only plumber I've found so far that I really trust is a big outfit that is a
little pricey and gives written estimates before any work; so I'm doing that.
The work is always good though. Maybe down the road I'll find a different
arrangement and save some bucks.

So, just do the best you can do with what you find, and recognize and keep the
good cards. If you think they're all *bad*, that will never happen.

If I don't have somewhere to start on a big job, like when I had the house
painted, the driveway repaved, and some foundation work, I got several
estimates. It's not just to compare the prices (and you dont' necessarily want
the lowest! But the highest may be someone on the take or just trying to price
themselves out the of job), it's also to get a read on what kind of person this
is. Kind of like a job interview. If he (or she, had a married set of masons!)
seems on top of things, and communicates well answering questions and offers
reasonable opinions and ideas, doesn't push or try to "sell" me, it's probably a
good card. I've had pretty good luck with that approach.

What part do *I* do? I value my time, so I do the part that I like only, that I
need to do often enough to actually accumalate some skill and knowledge. That's
the painting/staining and prep and related stuff. Yes, even running a
paintbrush or roller up and down takes a feeling for the task and some skill. I
wouldn't do my own tiling, although I find the task attractive. I just don't do
it enough, and it's too permanent, for me not to want a pro to do it. Maybe
when I'm retired and have had a chance to do some standalone projects like table
tops or accent walls.

BTW, I'm also a single woman.

Banty

"MRS. CLEAN" wrote:

JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
"MRS. CLEAN" wrote in message
ups.com...

Do contractors bluff their way into men's lives in the same fashion
that they do women?

Or, are men smarter than women on projects?


I think women are sometimes hesitant to keep asking questions until they
understand what they're paying for. I was never totally knowledgeable about
everything I've paid for (major car repairs, furnace/AC, electrical), but
one of my criteria for hiring people has always been to insist on someone
who is willing and able to answer questions.

You can often stack the odds in your favor by getting referrals from other
people who've been happy with a particular contractor. If you can't find
friends who've used a certain type of service, do what someone did in a
large office where I used to work: She put notes on the mirrors in the men's
& women's bathrooms, saying she was looking for a good electrician. The
place was too big and too busy for her to walk around checking with
everyone.

I remember asking specifically how long the job would take (electrical
svc panel) and he said "I don't know." He actually refused to give an
estimate on labor. We all know that this job should take 2-3 hrs. He
then said about the same as parts (labor).

That is $333 per hour.

Does it say stupid on my forehead? Don't pee on my leg and tell me
it's raining.

It can certainly take longer than 2-3 hours depending on the conditions
and whether it's one electrician working or two. That said I can't think
of many conditions that would make it impossible to give a reasonable
time estimate.

I know working by myself at a modest pace and periodically resting when
my carpal tunnel was making my hands numb, it took me about 6 hours to
complete my panel replacement under decent working conditions.

Pete C.

MRS. CLEAN wrote:

I remember asking specifically how long the job would take (electrical
svc panel) and he said "I don't know." He actually refused to give an
estimate on labor. We all know that this job should take 2-3 hrs. He
then said about the same as parts (labor).

That is $333 per hour.

Does it say stupid on my forehead? Don't pee on my leg and tell me
it's raining.

I can't tell about the forehead from here. Post a picture.

The "we all know" part doesn't compute. Job conditions and electrician
speed vary greatly. If you take your car in for service they have a
sign that reads that they'll compute it hourly or by the book rate.
Service panel changes are close to a book rate around this area. If
your electrician knows that everybody and his brother electrician get
$1500 for a service panel (or whatever), then there's not a big
incentive for him to knock the price down. They're running a business,
right?

Some contractor's are loathe to estimate hours on something they're
bidding as a lump sum because other people, you for example, might use
those numbers against them in an effort to chisel them down.

Find a contractor you can trust, try not to be too much of a pain in
the ass, and move on to the next windmill.

R

In article . com, MRS. CLEAN
says...


JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
"MRS. CLEAN" wrote in message
ups.com...

Do contractors bluff their way into men's lives in the same fashion
that they do women?

Or, are men smarter than women on projects?


I think women are sometimes hesitant to keep asking questions until they
understand what they're paying for. I was never totally knowledgeable about
everything I've paid for (major car repairs, furnace/AC, electrical), but
one of my criteria for hiring people has always been to insist on someone
who is willing and able to answer questions.

This is the A-number one thing that works for me - someone who I can communicate
with. Someone who has some enthusiasm about what he's doing is a plus.


You can often stack the odds in your favor by getting referrals from other
people who've been happy with a particular contractor. If you can't find
friends who've used a certain type of service, do what someone did in a
large office where I used to work: She put notes on the mirrors in the men's
& women's bathrooms, saying she was looking for a good electrician. The
place was too big and too busy for her to walk around checking with
everyone.

I remember asking specifically how long the job would take (electrical
svc panel) and he said "I don't know." He actually refused to give an
estimate on labor. We all know that this job should take 2-3 hrs. He
then said about the same as parts (labor).

That is $333 per hour.

Does it say stupid on my forehead? Don't pee on my leg and tell me
it's raining.



"We all know" ...what?

Maybe he honestly didn't know - he may find he needs to add circuits, etc., if
he finds poor work there before him.

Or maybe he's a jerk.

Either way, thank him, jot some notes on the estimate and keep it with the
written estimate, then call two more electricians.

Maybe he's judged you as a PITA and has given the price he feels makes it
worthwhile. Or not. You might be the sweetest lady in the world.

You just have to do some groundwork when you hire someone. Just like any other
business or person that hires work out or obtains employees. Dunno how you
expect to get around that. Contractors are humans, not plug-compatible fixit
unitoids.

Banty

"Banty" wrote in message
...
In article . com, MRS.
CLEAN
says...


JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
"MRS. CLEAN" wrote in message
ups.com...

Do contractors bluff their way into men's lives in the same fashion
that they do women?

Or, are men smarter than women on projects?


I think women are sometimes hesitant to keep asking questions until they
understand what they're paying for. I was never totally knowledgeable
about
everything I've paid for (major car repairs, furnace/AC, electrical),
but
one of my criteria for hiring people has always been to insist on
someone
who is willing and able to answer questions.

This is the A-number one thing that works for me - someone who I can
communicate
with. Someone who has some enthusiasm about what he's doing is a plus.


I've met a few carpenters who were great mathematicians. It irks me when I
hear people say "Some kids aren't college material - they end up in the
trades". Excuse me? Like being a master carpenter is 3 steps below a
stockbroker?


Maybe he honestly didn't know - he may find he needs to add circuits,
etc., if
he finds poor work there before him.

My previous house was a perfect example of endless unknowns. The first
electrical mods I made were in the garage, where I found modern wire. So, I
figured "OK....next, put a dimmer in the dining room - 20 minutes". Not. The
rest of the house had this ancient wire whose insulation crumbled when it
was exposed the light of day after removing the switch covers. Dimmer: 2
hours.

MRS. CLEAN wrote:
Do contractors bluff their way into men's lives in the same fashion
that they do women?

Or, are men smarter than women on projects?

I don't see the point in stereotyping contractors anymore than
stereotyping women.

R

Many stereotypes about women are correct.

Why do we need to learn the job?

Why do we need to get several estimates?

Because the stereotype on contractors are true.

RicodJour wrote:
MRS. CLEAN wrote:
Do contractors bluff their way into men's lives in the same fashion
that they do women?

Or, are men smarter than women on projects?

I don't see the point in stereotyping contractors anymore than
stereotyping women.

R

MRS. CLEAN wrote:
Many stereotypes about women are correct.

Some. Maybe. For some women.

Why do we need to learn the job?

You don't.

Why do we need to get several estimates?

Because it's the prudent thing to do when you don't have a contractor
that you can trust - and that also trusts you.

Because the stereotype on contractors are true.

You should be aware that such a crappy attitude about ALL contractors,
and feeling put upon because of your gender in such situations, that
your attitude comes through loud and clear. In other words, I'd add
five hundred to the price of a small job because you'd be a pain in the
ass to work with. And frankly, I'd probably never even get back to you
or I'd give your number to the worst contractor I knew.

Building a relationship with a contractor is only important if you
intend to use them again. And if they would ever work with you again.
Think about it.

R

RicodJour wrote:

You should be aware that such a crappy attitude about ALL contractors,
and feeling put upon because of your gender in such situations, that
your attitude comes through loud and clear. In other words, I'd add
five hundred to the price of a small job because you'd be a pain in
the ass to work with. And frankly, I'd probably never even get back
to you or I'd give your number to the worst contractor I knew.


Then how do you explain the "official" super-double-secret calendar for
contractors I recently saw?

It had no Mondays on it.

MRS. CLEAN wrote:
Many stereotypes about women are correct.

Why do we need to learn the job?

Why do we need to get several estimates?

Because the stereotype on contractors are true.

RicodJour wrote:
MRS. CLEAN wrote:
Do contractors bluff their way into men's lives in the same fashion
that they do women?

Or, are men smarter than women on projects?

I don't see the point in stereotyping contractors anymore than
stereotyping women.

R

It isn't stereotypes of women so much as that women in general have a
totally different life experience. Few of them have the 'fix-it'
background to be knowledgeable about the building trades. As for the
'How much':

I won't sign a contract on a 'cost plus' basis if it includes labor as
part of the cost - that is opening the door to a raid on your pocket
book. Now if it is 'cost plus a perecentage of material costs' that is
a different matter.

I prefer contracts on the 'total cost' so I know exactly what I will be
paying. Of course I expect the contractor to build in a fudge factor
and I may pay more than a 'cost plus' but...

Harry K

Harry K wrote:

I won't sign a contract on a 'cost plus' basis if it includes labor as
part of the cost - that is opening the door to a raid on your pocket
book. Now if it is 'cost plus a perecentage of material costs' that is
a different matter.

I don't follow your logic. A cost plus arrangement is only a good idea
if you have a contractor you know, have worked with before, and you
trust. Labor is a cost to the contractor. Labor can be the biggest
variable. Most contractors wouldn't have the foggiest idea of how to
do a cost plus on materials only with a fixed labor cost. How can
materials be an unknown and the labor be known? That makes no sense.

I prefer contracts on the 'total cost' so I know exactly what I will be
paying. Of course I expect the contractor to build in a fudge factor
and I may pay more than a 'cost plus' but...

I think what you're looking to do is to have a cost plus arrangement,
including labor, and have an upset or not-to-exceed price capping your
risk. The standard arrangement is to have a bonus for the contractor
if he brings the project in under the cap. In other words, he'd get
more money for working fewer hours, and that money is in his pocket not
the labor crew.

Google around a little bit, you'll definitely find a better way of
writing your contracts that won't alienate contractors.

R

"MRS. CLEAN" wrote in message
oups.com...

Many stereotypes about women are correct.

Why do we need to learn the job?

Why do we need to get several estimates?

Because the stereotype on contractors are true.

Not just for women though. Unless you are well aware of who you are dealing
with, proceed with caution. I'm getting estimates on a siding job. Large
old building, more than the typical house. I'm getting at least three
quotes. So far, one is $35,000, next is $48,000, and another is $89,000.
How do you decide? All of these companies have been in business for 20+
years, so you figure they know what is involved.

My guess is the cheapest does not realize the complexity, the highest is
over allowing for little problems that will come up. The middle price, I'm
just not sure about. If two were close, I'd decide on the basis of who I
thought would be the better contractor. Give or take a thousand dollars is
not much on a job of that magnitude. But a difference of over 200% makes
you wonder just who is right.

Another factor is the time to quote. One took a week, one took over two
weeks and two visits, another took less than four hours. Does that
determine who is the most interested or the most competent?

In article .com, "MRS. CLEAN" wrote:

Why do we need to get several estimates?

Because the stereotype on contractors are true.

Mrs Clean is, in fact, correct. If you check with the BBB
and other consumer organizations, certain classes of
businesses generate many time more complaints than others.

Cell phone companies, cable companies and contractors
are ranked amongst the worst.

Fast food outlets are ranked among the best. Despite
the crap quality of the burgers, consumers seem to
feel that they get good and consistent value :-)

Contractors do get a bad rap and perhaps that's unfair
to the really good ones. But, for the group as a whole,
the bad rap is justified by the hard data.

--
|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|
| Malcolm Hoar "The more I practice, the luckier I get". |
| Gary Player. |
| http://www.malch.com/ Shpx gur PQN. |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I'd put it this way:

99% of contractors give the others a bad name.

Mrs. Clean


Malcolm Hoar wrote:
In article .com, "MRS. CLEAN" wrote:

Why do we need to get several estimates?

Because the stereotype on contractors are true.

Mrs Clean is, in fact, correct. If you check with the BBB
and other consumer organizations, certain classes of
businesses generate many time more complaints than others.

Cell phone companies, cable companies and contractors
are ranked amongst the worst.

Fast food outlets are ranked among the best. Despite
the crap quality of the burgers, consumers seem to
feel that they get good and consistent value :-)

Contractors do get a bad rap and perhaps that's unfair
to the really good ones. But, for the group as a whole,
the bad rap is justified by the hard data.

--
|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|
| Malcolm Hoar "The more I practice, the luckier I get". |
| Gary Player. |
| http://www.malch.com/ Shpx gur PQN. |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

In article .com, MRS. CLEAN
says...


I'd put it this way:

99% of contractors give the others a bad name.

Mrs. Clean

I'd put it this way:

If you have problems with 99% of just about anything, the problem is with you.

Banty

MRS. CLEAN wrote:
Do contractors bluff their way into men's lives in the same fashion
that they do women?

Or, are men smarter than women on projects?



This thread got me wondering if anyone can offer comments about whether
any seriously useful contractor selection help can be gotten from
Angie's List?

http://www.angieslist.com/AngiesList/

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia
(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
The speed of light is 1.8*10^12 furlongs per fortnight.

MRS. CLEAN wrote:
Do contractors bluff their way into men's lives in the same fashion
that they do women?

Or, are men smarter than women on projects?

You've got to speak the language. For example:

Dilbert: "I think it's the radiator cap."
Mechanic: "What did you say?!!"
Dilbert: "I think it's the #&*!!@ radiator cap."
Mechanic: "Well, why didn't you say so?"
Dilbert: "Sorry, I forgot where I was."