Hi All: I have an older home which has a lot of wiring that is the
very old romex? with two wires (black and white) and no ground wire.
The bathroom has GFI outlets and I noticed that someone tied the bare
ground to nuetral (white) assuming this would be eventually connected
to ground. An electrician told me that this is bad because there can
be current flow in your nuetral side. (makes sense). Altough all of
my fixtures (lights etc) use plastic boxes and no fixture has ground
wire connected to it, I assume it is safe for now.
I was planning on disconnecting the bare gorund wire from nuetral.
Does that mean that the GFI outlet will no longer detect current to
ground?

These old houses are a real pan in the butt.

M

In article , wrote:
Hi All: I have an older home which has a lot of wiring that is the
very old romex? with two wires (black and white) and no ground wire.
The bathroom has GFI outlets and I noticed that someone tied the bare
ground to nuetral (white) assuming this would be eventually connected
to ground. An electrician told me that this is bad because there can
be current flow in your nuetral side. (makes sense).

He's right. Neutral and ground are supposed to be connected in the service
entrance panel and _nowhere_else_. Anything otherwise is dangerous.

Altough all of
my fixtures (lights etc) use plastic boxes and no fixture has ground
wire connected to it, I assume it is safe for now.

I don't think I'd want to rely on assumptions...

I was planning on disconnecting the bare gorund wire from nuetral.
Does that mean that the GFI outlet will no longer detect current to
ground?

No. GFCIs operate by detecting an imbalance in the current flowing in the
black and white wires. The bare wire is not needed for proper operation.

These old houses are a real pan in the butt.

Ahhh, I dunno -- I think prior homeowners who try to do their own wiring
without knowing what they're doing are a much worse pain in the butt.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

In article ,
(Doug Miller) wrote:
Ahhh, I dunno -- I think prior homeowners who try to do their own wiring
without knowing what they're doing are a much worse pain in the butt.


Hi Doug -
I think doth generalize too much. Doug - I think you and I are prior
owners - at least you specify "without knowing what they are doing."
I built a Lindal Cedar Home in 1973 - did all the wiring myself with no
prior experience - in three days - and passed the fire inspection with
no errors. Every thing I learned was from a little Time/Life Home
improvement book. Each room had 110 and 220 circuits - for electric heat
at the time. It was tough using all that 10 gauge copper wire :-) I
have 30 circuit breakers :-)
We still own that home - never had a problem with it.
Harry

Thanks Doug. I'm going to get rid of that ground wire connected to
nuetral. Don't know why it was done that way.
M

On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 15:47:30 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , wrote:
Hi All: I have an older home which has a lot of wiring that is the
very old romex? with two wires (black and white) and no ground wire.
The bathroom has GFI outlets and I noticed that someone tied the bare
ground to nuetral (white) assuming this would be eventually connected
to ground. An electrician told me that this is bad because there can
be current flow in your nuetral side. (makes sense).

He's right. Neutral and ground are supposed to be connected in the service
entrance panel and _nowhere_else_. Anything otherwise is dangerous.

Altough all of
my fixtures (lights etc) use plastic boxes and no fixture has ground
wire connected to it, I assume it is safe for now.

I don't think I'd want to rely on assumptions...

I was planning on disconnecting the bare gorund wire from nuetral.
Does that mean that the GFI outlet will no longer detect current to
ground?

No. GFCIs operate by detecting an imbalance in the current flowing in the
black and white wires. The bare wire is not needed for proper operation.

These old houses are a real pan in the butt.

Ahhh, I dunno -- I think prior homeowners who try to do their own wiring
without knowing what they're doing are a much worse pain in the butt.

Doug Miller wrote:
In article ,
wrote:
Hi All: I have an older home which has a lot of wiring that is the
very old romex? with two wires (black and white) and no ground
wire.
The bathroom has GFI outlets and I noticed that someone tied the
bare
ground to nuetral (white) assuming this would be eventually
connected
to ground. An electrician told me that this is bad because there
can
be current flow in your nuetral side. (makes sense).

I was planning on disconnecting the bare gorund wire from nuetral.
Does that mean that the GFI outlet will no longer detect current to
ground?

No. GFCIs operate by detecting an imbalance in the current flowing in
the
black and white wires. The bare wire is not needed for proper
operation.

Doug's right, as you can verify by using the GFCI test button after
removing the incorrect ground jumper. The built-in test button leaks
current to neutral, bypassing the GFCI detection, so it should always
work. However, plug-in GFCI testers will not trip this outlet, as they
function by leaking a bit of current to ground.

GFCI's are the recommended quick-and-dirty fix for ungrounded circuits
throughout the house, and many now come with little "NO EQUIPMENT
GROUND" stickers that you're supposed to put on the faceplaces of the
outlet, and on downstream outlets (along with the ones that say
"PROTECTED BY GFI").

Chip C

"Harry Everhart" wrote in message
...
In article ,
(Doug Miller) wrote:
Ahhh, I dunno -- I think prior homeowners who try to do their own wiring
without knowing what they're doing are a much worse pain in the butt.


Hi Doug -
I think doth generalize too much. Doug - I think you and I are prior
owners - at least you specify "without knowing what they are doing."
I built a Lindal Cedar Home in 1973 - did all the wiring myself with no
prior experience - in three days - and passed the fire inspection with
no errors. Every thing I learned was from a little Time/Life Home
improvement book. Each room had 110 and 220 circuits - for electric heat
at the time. It was tough using all that 10 gauge copper wire :-) I
have 30 circuit breakers :-)
We still own that home - never had a problem with it.


what exactly was the point of your post, besides tooting your own horn?

randy

Randy wrote:
What exactly was the point of your post, besides tooting your own horn?

=============

Randy, I had the same question for him. It is extremely difficult to
imagine why anybody would want to effectively say,
"Ignore the NEC. I have and I haven't killed anybody or burned
down my house yet. No harm, no foul. Ignorance is bliss."

msterspy wrote:

Thanks Doug. I'm going to get rid of that ground wire connected to
nuetral. Don't know why it was done that way.

Ignorance, almost surely...

how about connecting a wire from the ground lug of the receptacle to a
nearby cold water pipe?

it appears this would provide an effective saftey ground

would it be legal?

Mark

In article , Harry Everhart wrote:
In article ,
(Doug Miller) wrote:
Ahhh, I dunno -- I think prior homeowners who try to do their own wiring
without knowing what they're doing are a much worse pain in the butt.


Hi Doug -
I think doth generalize too much. Doug - I think you and I are prior
owners - at least you specify "without knowing what they are doing."

Indeed, that makes *all* the difference. I have no problem with electrical
work done by homeowners who *do* know what they're doing. It's the ones who
*don't* know (but think they do) that are the pains in the butt.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

In article .com, "Mark" wrote:
how about connecting a wire from the ground lug of the receptacle to a
nearby cold water pipe?

No. Not safe, not legal.

it appears this would provide an effective saftey ground

Appearances can be deceiving. You have *no* assurance that the water pipe
makes an effective ground. None whatever.

Furthermore, a ground fault in a device plugged into that receptacle would
then electrifiy the metal water pipes. I hope it's clear to you that that is a
very dangerous situation.

would it be legal?

Absolutely not.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

I had all kinds of surprizes when I bought this house.
For example the prveious owner decided to "save money" and not bother
with the big 3 prong plug for the clothes dryer. They simply connected
the romex right into the dryer. No way to unplug it if there was a
problem. Got rid of that mess in a hurry.
Same way with th garage door opener. No breaker or shutoff nearby
(detatched garage) . They also buried the power cable to the garage
under 12" of soil.

The previous owner was a licensed electrician.



On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 13:04:01 -0500, Duane Bozarth
wrote:

msterspy wrote:

Thanks Doug. I'm going to get rid of that ground wire connected to
nuetral. Don't know why it was done that way.

Ignorance, almost surely...

Doug Miller wrote:



I was planning on disconnecting the bare gorund wire from nuetral.
Does that mean that the GFI outlet will no longer detect current to
ground?


No. GFCIs operate by detecting an imbalance in the current flowing in the
black and white wires. The bare wire is not needed for proper operation.



You are correct, they will protect people from electrocution without
having a ground wire connected to them, but without a ground they NEED
to have stickers on their plates warning "Equipment ground NOT connected".

An inbalance in the current flowing in the black and white wires is not
*all* they detect Doug.

Most folks who understand that much about GFCIs don't know that nearly
all GFCIs will also detect a neutral to ground fault downstream from them.

How do they do that?

Sam Goldwasser has done an excellent job of describing "everything"
about how GFCIs work on this page:

http://www.codecheck.com/gfci_principal.htm

Interesting reading for all who can follow the simple circuit diagrams
and understand how transformers function.

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia

(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"As long as there are final exams, there will be prayer in public
schools"

050420 1739 - msterspy posted:

I had all kinds of surprizes when I bought this house.
For example the prveious owner decided to "save money" and not bother
with the big 3 prong plug for the clothes dryer. They simply connected
the romex right into the dryer. No way to unplug it if there was a
problem. Got rid of that mess in a hurry.
Same way with th garage door opener. No breaker or shutoff nearby
(detatched garage) . They also buried the power cable to the garage
under 12" of soil.

The previous owner was a licensed electrician.


Just goes to show. Another example is the licensed driver. There the ones
who have all the accidents.

In article ,
"xrongor" wrote:
what exactly was the point of your post, besides tooting your own horn?

randy

Hi Randy -

Don't want to argue - I don't like to toot a horn either :-)

I just wanted to comment that home electrical systems are not rocket
science. It is something that can easily be learned.

Many electricians - not all of them - like to make on that it is some
mysterious thing. It is a logical study. People gain hysterical fear of
it from experts that try to make it seem more difficult than it is. Doug
generally does a good job explaining electricity on here.

My point was - that even a duffer like me - can do a whole home from
scratch - if they study it first - and second have it inspected.

I was a school teacher 33 years - seventh grade science. You do not have
to be a genius to do that either :-) It is easy teaching one new
lesson everyday. Try doing the same lesson six times a day and do that
for 33 years :-)

There I go tooting my own horn again :-)

Sorry.
Harry

In article , wrote:
I had all kinds of surprizes when I bought this house.
For example the prveious owner decided to "save money" and not bother
with the big 3 prong plug for the clothes dryer. They simply connected
the romex right into the dryer. No way to unplug it if there was a
problem. Got rid of that mess in a hurry.
Same way with th garage door opener. No breaker or shutoff nearby
(detatched garage) . They also buried the power cable to the garage
under 12" of soil.

That one is actually OK per code under certain conditions. (120V @ 20A max
with GFCI)

The previous owner was a licensed electrician.

Some jurisdictions have very lenient licensing standards. Or you may have been
lied to.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

"Duane Bozarth" wrote in message
...
msterspy wrote:

Thanks Doug. I'm going to get rid of that ground wire connected to
nuetral. Don't know why it was done that way.

Ignorance, almost surely...

Indeed.

But they probably didn't realize, as well, that a gfci outlet is about the
only thing to wire improperly this way relatively safely. (Not that it
should be done).

The danger, the way I understand, with hooking the neutral to ground
anywhere but the main panel is that if the neutral would stop functioning
for some reason, it would then allow the bare ground to be used as a
neutral, which in this case would immediately trip the gfci.... instead of
waiting for somebody who is grounded to touch the fixture in this state and
zapping them (since it would still be functioning 'normally').

I think it's odd that the gfci would trip in this situation anyway. They are
pretty sensitive, and if there is a path for the electricity to flow through
the ground to the neutral it will to some extent.... it would seem. Which
should trip the gffi.

"Olaf" wrote in message
...



I think it's odd that the gfci would trip in this situation anyway.

Uh, I mean would NOT trip in this situation. As soon as something is turned
on that's plugged in to it.

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
m...
In article ,
wrote:
I had all kinds of surprizes when I bought this house.
For example the prveious owner decided to "save money" and not bother
with the big 3 prong plug for the clothes dryer. They simply connected
the romex right into the dryer. No way to unplug it if there was a
problem. Got rid of that mess in a hurry.
Same way with th garage door opener. No breaker or shutoff nearby
(detatched garage) . They also buried the power cable to the garage
under 12" of soil.

That one is actually OK per code under certain conditions. (120V @ 20A max
with GFCI)

I am pretty sure the code says at least 12" deep for a 120V 20A GFCI circuit
with UF cable.
I think the OP is saying that his cable was less than 12" deep.
Kevin

In article , "Kevin Ricks" wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
om...
In article ,
wrote:
I had all kinds of surprizes when I bought this house.
For example the prveious owner decided to "save money" and not bother
with the big 3 prong plug for the clothes dryer. They simply connected
the romex right into the dryer. No way to unplug it if there was a
problem. Got rid of that mess in a hurry.
Same way with th garage door opener. No breaker or shutoff nearby
(detatched garage) . They also buried the power cable to the garage
under 12" of soil.

That one is actually OK per code under certain conditions. (120V @ 20A max
with GFCI)

I am pretty sure the code says at least 12" deep for a 120V 20A GFCI circuit
with UF cable.

Right, that is what the Code says.

I think the OP is saying that his cable was less than 12" deep.

Not how I read it at all. YMMV.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

In article , wrote:

The real problem is that this device was not installed by a
professional electrician.

Utter nonsense. The real problem is that it was installed by someone who
didn't know what he was doing. You don't have to be a professional electrician
to install a receptacle correctly.

[snip]

Besides that, tampering
with electrical things will void your homeowners insurance.

See if you can find the clause in your homeowner's policy that says that.

A general rule of thumb is this: A homeowner should only flip light
switches, and plug UL Approved electrical things into outlets. That's
ALL you should do, except to turn off a circuit breaker in an
emergency. You should hire a Union Electrician for all wiring. Hire
an electrician to change light bulbs, and hire an electrician to turn
ON or OFF all circuit breakers in non-emergency situations. Also, if
you have the old fuses instead of breakers, DO NOT touch them even
during an emergency. They are extremely dangerous and can explode if
handled by an inexperienced home owner. Even light bulbs are capable
of exploding and killing people. Thousands of persons die every day
as a result of electricution and fire caused by non-certified people
tampering with electricity. Just last week an entire family
consisting of three adults and seven children died as a result of an
inexperienced homeowner attempting to change a light bulb, which
exploded and released toxic gasses, killing the entire family, and
causing one of the worst fires in U.S. history

Uh-huh. Riiiiiight.

Did you forget to take your meds this morning?


Learn not to burn.

John Walters
Professional Electrical Consultant and Union Certified Electrician
1030 Market St.
Los Angeles, California


Well, isn't that interesting.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

Clarification: The power line to the detacched garage was not
protected with a GFI

On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 21:40:55 -0400, "Olaf"
wrote:


"Olaf" wrote in message
...



I think it's odd that the gfci would trip in this situation anyway.

Uh, I mean would NOT trip in this situation. As soon as something is turned
on that's plugged in to it.

Clarification: The power line to the detacched garage was not
protected with a GFI

On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 21:40:55 -0400, "Olaf"
wrote:


"Olaf" wrote in message
...



I think it's odd that the gfci would trip in this situation anyway.

Uh, I mean would NOT trip in this situation. As soon as something is turned
on that's plugged in to it.

According to Olaf :
I think it's odd that the gfci would trip in this situation anyway. They are
pretty sensitive, and if there is a path for the electricity to flow through
the ground to the neutral it will to some extent.... it would seem. Which
should trip the gffi.

It would, if the ground was continuous back to the panel. It isn't in a GFI
in a groundless circuit. Which is why the NEC/CEC _insists_ that you
don't connect the ground prongs of outlets downstream of a GFI on a groundless
circuit to _anything_ (especially including other outlets).
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

According to Jeff Wisnia :
An inbalance in the current flowing in the black and white wires is not
*all* they detect Doug.

Actually, it is all they detect.

Most folks who understand that much about GFCIs don't know that nearly
all GFCIs will also detect a neutral to ground fault downstream from them.

How do they do that?

Because the current flowing in the black and white wires isn't balanced,
some of the current that should be going thru the neutral is going down
the ground wire. Even if _nothing_ is turned on in the circuit in question,
there'll often be enough current flow (due to slight differences in voltage
between neutral and ground) to trip it - an implicit ground loop.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

Doug Miller wrote:
In article , wrote:

The real problem is that this device was not installed by a
professional electrician.


Utter nonsense. The real problem is that it was installed by someone who
didn't know what he was doing. You don't have to be a professional electrician
to install a receptacle correctly.

[snip]


Besides that, tampering
with electrical things will void your homeowners insurance.


See if you can find the clause in your homeowner's policy that says that.


A general rule of thumb is this: A homeowner should only flip light
switches, and plug UL Approved electrical things into outlets. That's
ALL you should do, except to turn off a circuit breaker in an
emergency. You should hire a Union Electrician for all wiring. Hire
an electrician to change light bulbs, and hire an electrician to turn
ON or OFF all circuit breakers in non-emergency situations. Also, if
you have the old fuses instead of breakers, DO NOT touch them even
during an emergency. They are extremely dangerous and can explode if
handled by an inexperienced home owner. Even light bulbs are capable
of exploding and killing people. Thousands of persons die every day
as a result of electricution and fire caused by non-certified people
tampering with electricity. Just last week an entire family
consisting of three adults and seven children died as a result of an
inexperienced homeowner attempting to change a light bulb, which
exploded and released toxic gasses, killing the entire family, and
causing one of the worst fires in U.S. history


Uh-huh. Riiiiiight.

Did you forget to take your meds this morning?


Learn not to burn.

John Walters
Professional Electrical Consultant and Union Certified Electrician
1030 Market St.
Los Angeles, California



Well, isn't that interesting.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

Doug
I'm not trying to be quarrelsome when I say that when any home owner
does anything in their home that violates the law that act is not
covered by the homes insurance. An insurance contract is a "contract of
utmost good faith." The parties to the contract are required by the
nature of the contract to scrupulously obey the law. It is considered a
legal absurdity to try to insure against the consequences of your own
unlawfully act.

The upshot of all that is that if the local or state government has
adopted an electric code and requirements for permits and inspections,
and the insured violates that law, and that violation results in a loss,
that loss is not covered by the insurance because it would be
insurance on a deliberate and unlawful act on the part of the insured.

Just as there are basic elements to any contract that are required to
make that contract enforceable at law there are also basic rules about
an insurance contract that are not written into the contract itself.
Expecting your insurance carrier to pay for a loss caused by your own
unlawful wiring is just as ridiculous as expecting the insurance to pay
the loss caused by a meth amphetamine cooking operation that burns down
the cookers home. "For he who seeks equity must do equity. You must
come before the bar with clean hands."

It is true that many such losses are paid because the insurer never
learns that the cause of the loss was the insureds unlawful act but if
they do discover it they can, and indeed have, walk away from the loss.
I am only one of many thousands of firefighters in the US and I was
deposed in two such cases. IN both cases the home owner had to absorb
the loss. The violations of code in both cases were very obvious and
had been noted in the fire cause and origin report.
--
Tom H

In article .net, HorneTD wrote:


Doug
I'm not trying to be quarrelsome when I say that when any home owner
does anything in their home that violates the law that act is not
covered by the homes insurance.

I'm not disputing that - but did you read what that fool wrote? He'd have us
believe that for a homeowner to do *anything* at all to the home's electrical
system, whether Code-compliant or not, would void the insurance coverage.


--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

Don't want to argue - I don't like to toot a horn either :-)

I just wanted to comment that home electrical systems are not rocket
science. It is something that can easily be learned.

*IFF* you are willing to admit that you don't already
know it, yes. The dangerous part is when people
decide to just figure it out as they go.

Chris Lewis wrote:
According to Jeff Wisnia :

An inbalance in the current flowing in the black and white wires is not
*all* they detect Doug.


Actually, it is all they detect.


Most folks who understand that much about GFCIs don't know that nearly
all GFCIs will also detect a neutral to ground fault downstream from them.



How do they do that?


Because the current flowing in the black and white wires isn't balanced,
some of the current that should be going thru the neutral is going down
the ground wire. Even if _nothing_ is turned on in the circuit in question,
there'll often be enough current flow (due to slight differences in voltage
between neutral and ground) to trip it - an implicit ground loop.

Chris, my question was rhetorical, leading into the link I posted to
Goldwasser's page:

http://www.codecheck.com/gfci_principal.htm

If you read that link, you'll note that the GFCI actually induces a
small voltage onto both the hot and neutral leads with a *second*
toroidal transformer. Even with "nothing turned on", it's that voltage
which produces an inbalanced current through the principal ground fault
detection toroid if the neutral lead is shorted to ground "downstream"
of the GFCI.

Pretty clever I think.

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia

(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"As long as there are final exams, there will be prayer in public
schools"

Doug Miller wrote:
In article .net, HorneTD wrote:


Doug
I'm not trying to be quarrelsome when I say that when any home owner
does anything in their home that violates the law that act is not
covered by the homes insurance.


I'm not disputing that - but did you read what that fool wrote? He'd have us
believe that for a homeowner to do *anything* at all to the home's electrical
system, whether Code-compliant or not, would void the insurance coverage.


--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

Yes, your right. He overstates the risk in rather reckless terms.

I only wanted to point out that you can in fact suffer an uninsured loss
if you do your own electrical work while failing to comply with adopted
code and that unlawful work causes a loss.

I do that to inform people of the risk of an uninsured loss rather than
to try and intimidate people out of doing there own work. I work with
sweat equity projects all the time and I support the right of
responsible home owners to work on their own homes when they are willing
to take the time to learn to do it right.
--
Tom H

According to Jeff Wisnia :
Pretty clever I think.

Yes, quite. Thanks for drawing my attention to that.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.