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Home Repair (alt.home.repair) For all homeowners and DIYers with many experienced tradesmen. Solve your toughest home fix-it problems. |
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#1
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Some definitions. Bus bar for household neutral and
ground wires in breaker box would be breaker box safety ground. It must connect to cold water pipe so that water pipes are safety grounded. A bare copper ground wire of at least 6 AWG (4 AWG is more commonly used) connects to 8' earth ground rod that is driven almost completely into earth. That wire must be routed so that it has no sharp bends, no splices, not bundled with other non-grounding wires and does not connect to other earth grounds until they all meet at central earth ground. That ground rod would become your central earth ground. Incoming cable or TV wire would also connect to ground rod using ground block and 14 AWG (or heavier) insulated wire. Telephone premise interface box, typically called NID, also connects to this same central earth ground using 12 AWG (typically they use 10 AWG that is green or gray color insulated) wire. Earth ground rod remains with top visible to that each ground wire can be clamped to that rod and remain visible for inspection. If other ground rods are added to enhance that single point earth ground, then must be separated six or more feet from this first rod. Other rods are often connected to this first rod using a buried 2 AWG bare copper wire. That 2 AWG wire not only interconnects ground rods but also enhances the earth ground network. Some of these requirements are beyond what the NEC requires. For example, phone wire ground meets breaker box ground at ground rod (does not attach to 4 or 6 AWG ground wire) to make earthing for both utilities effective also for transistor protection. Ground wires route separate from all other wires also for transistor protection - beyond what NEC requires. Is a single earth rod sufficient for earthing? Typically yes for NEC requirements. May or may not be sufficient for transistor protection. Geology is a fact that answers this question. Earth that is bleached of ionic material (ie. sand or gravel) definitely requires an expanded single point earth ground system. If underlying earth is impregnated with veins of conductive earth or if the central earth ground is in earth less conductive than earth on the other side of a building, then additional considerations are required. But in many cases, the single or a few earth ground rods so drastically increases a building's earth ground as to make a major improvement in transistor safety. I would more suspect that existing ground wire is simply a long wire laid in and buried before foundation was backfilled. If so, then your newly installed earth ground rods only enhance and make more reliable an already good earth ground. Very important question about driving a rod into earth when pipe locations are unknown. Maybe call utility. Tell them you are adding some ground rods and do not know where the gas pipe is. Also ask gas company how they want that interior gas pipe connected to breaker box ground. A locating service will spray paint dirt above buried gas (and other) pipe. Utilities are very concerned about informing everyone of pipe (and wire) locations. That locating service may also be so kind as to trace out existing breaker box ground wire for you. But yes, get the utility to locate that gas pipe and water pipe before driving an 8 or 10 foot copper clad ground rod into earth. Happy earthing! Mark Wilson wrote: All right, I've resigned myself to putting in a ground rod. Just a few questions on the particulars.... To my understanding an eight foot rod is required burried two feet in the ground. The current (no pun) bare ground wire coming from the electrical box is what appears to be about 10 gauge. Did someone say this wire should be 2 gauge? Is that heavy of a gauge really necessary? There is a cold water pipe near the eletrical box which I will ground to the house ground. Is it better to ground this to the bare grounding wire or to go in to one of the bus bars inside the electrical box? The gas pipes enter the corner of the house and go only a few feet before reaching the water heater, then up to the ground floor to supply the gas stove. (Kitchen is in the middle of the house). It doesn't seem this is any kind of lightening risk. Is it necessary at all to ground the gas pipes? Oh, and am I going to have to call the gas company before putting the ground rod in? I was expecting to just drive the rod into the ground like a rail road spike. But I'm worried there might be a gas pipe under there somewhere. Thanks a lot for your patience with me guys. I'm using a couple books for reference, but the information I get in books is never quite as good or detailed as the advice I've read here. |
#2
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Original poster thought his earth ground took a dive to
maybe a buried gas line or maybe to a water pipe some 30 yards away. Unknown exactly where that breaker box ground wire goes. Recommendation was, quite simply (and misrepresented in the response) to connect that ground wire to a newly installed and "nearby to breaker box" single point earth ground. Breaker box would no longer find central earth ground only on some unknown location or pipe AND all other incoming utilities would be earthed to a common, known, single point ground. At no time was earthing a gas pipe to the single point ground advocated. Posted previously was that the gas pipe must connect to breaker box safety ground as local gas company now requires. That safety ground is typically a basement wire connection. Saying that it is wrong to connect gas line to grounding electrode is a classic strawman argument because no such recommendation was made. Please read the original post more carefully. No where is grounding to gas pipe cited as a requirement by any code or standards agency: In original posters case, a wire buried in earth may connect to buried gas pipe. No, it may _not_. Please state your references. NEC? IEEE? If it's an IEEE reference, please quote it, as most of us don't have access to them without forking out huge sums of money. Original poster thought maybe - possibly - potentially - speculates without any certain fact - that a ground wired going to an unknown destination might connect to gas line or to maybe nothing. That above sentence never even implied earthing a gas pipe was called for by any standard. Again, because the strawman was posted so many times - connecting gas line to grounding electrode was never advocated, encouraged, or even suggested. volts500 wrote: "w_tom" wrote in message ... The gas and electric company in this area demands gas line be connected to safety ground. Yes, like I said, _interior_ gas lines must be bonded to the service equipment.......per NEC Section 250.104(B) which states: 250.104 Bonding of Piping Systems and Exposed Structural Steel. 250.104(B) Other Metal Piping. "Where installed in or attached to a building or structure, metal piping system(s), including gas piping, that may become energized shall be bonded to the service equipment enclosure, the grounded conductor at the service, the grounding electrode conductor where of sufficient size, or to one or more grounding electrodes used. The bonding jumper(s) shall be sized in accordance with 250.122 using the rating of the circuit that may energize the piping system(s). The equipment grounding conductor for the circuit that may energize the piping shall be permitted to serve as the bonding means. The points of attachment of the bonding jumper(s) shall be accessible." In fact, the 2002 NEC was revised to make it clear that _interior_ gas lines be treated the same as all other interior metal piping (such as interior water lines). In fact, in the past many plumbers have been killed because the interior gas lines were _not_ bonded to the service equipment, the gas line becomes energized via a ground-fault in a gas appliance (such as the light circuit in a gas stove), then the plumber inadvertently touches the energized gas line while also contacting a grounded water pipe. It's not hard to deduce how explosions can also occur when the _interior_ gas line is not bonded to the service equipment. OTOH, this requirement should not be interpreted as lead one to think that the _underground_ gas line should be connected to the grounding electrode system. _Any_ grounding electrode that is connected to the grounding electrode system becomes part of that system........be it a metal underground water pipe, building steel, a concrete-encased (Ufer) electrode, a ground ring, rod and pipe electrodes (such as ground rods), or plate electrodes. NEC Section 250.52(B) clearly states: ... But that gas line must not be the earth ground electrode. If it's connected to the grounding electrode system, it's a grounding electrode and it _will_ dissipate electrons right along with other grounding electrodes that it is bonded too. ... |
#3
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![]() "w_tom" wrote in message ... ........snip....... Original poster thought maybe - possibly - potentially - speculates without any certain fact - that a ground wired going to an unknown destination might connect to gas line or to maybe nothing. That above sentence never even implied earthing a gas pipe was called for by any standard. Again, because the strawman was posted so many times - connecting gas line to grounding electrode was never advocated, encouraged, or even suggested. Are these _not_ your words from just a few posts ago? "In original posters case, a wire buried in earth may connect to buried gas pipe. So that gas pipe does not become central earth ground, that wire from breaker box should first encounter a rod (or rods) that are the central earth ground." And that garbage about the ground rod taking over as the "central earth ground" is just that. What a joke. Must be time to start a new list. |
#4
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![]() Your going to leave 6' of rod sticking out? lol. Badly stated. It was my understanding that the 8 foot rod must be burried 2 feet under ground, meaning the bottom of the rod would be ....would be a total of 10 feet under the ground. |
#5
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International Fuel Gas Code, Page 29, Section 309.1, 2002 Edition
Gas piping shall not be used as a grounding electrode. 309.2 Connections Electrical connections between equipment and the building wire, including grounding of the equipment, shall conform to the ICC Electrical Code. In my area, NO GROUNDING AT ALL to a gas line, the grounds are to be made at the equipment, and if an inspector finds that you have a ground to a gas line....permits are jerked, and a stop work order is issued on the spot. "volts500" wrote in message . com... "w_tom" wrote in message ... The gas and electric company in this area demands gas line be connected to safety ground. Yes, like I said, _interior_ gas lines must be bonded to the service equipment.......per NEC Section 250.104(B) which states: 250.104 Bonding of Piping Systems and Exposed Structural Steel. 250.104(B) Other Metal Piping. "Where installed in or attached to a building or structure, metal piping system(s), including gas piping, that may become energized shall be bonded to the service equipment enclosure, the grounded conductor at the service, the grounding electrode conductor where of sufficient size, or to one or more grounding electrodes used. The bonding jumper(s) shall be sized in accordance with 250.122 using the rating of the circuit that may energize the piping system(s). The equipment grounding conductor for the circuit that may energize the piping shall be permitted to serve as the bonding means. The points of attachment of the bonding jumper(s) shall be accessible." In fact, the 2002 NEC was revised to make it clear that _interior_ gas lines be treated the same as all other interior metal piping (such as interior water lines). In fact, in the past many plumbers have been killed because the interior gas lines were _not_ bonded to the service equipment, the gas line becomes energized via a ground-fault in a gas appliance (such as the light circuit in a gas stove), then the plumber inadvertently touches the energized gas line while also contacting a grounded water pipe. It's not hard to deduce how explosions can also occur when the _interior_ gas line is not bonded to the service equipment. OTOH, this requirement should not be interpreted as lead one to think that the _underground_ gas line should be connected to the grounding electrode system. _Any_ grounding electrode that is connected to the grounding electrode system becomes part of that system........be it a metal underground water pipe, building steel, a concrete-encased (Ufer) electrode, a ground ring, rod and pipe electrodes (such as ground rods), or plate electrodes. NEC Section 250.52(B) clearly states: 250.52 Grounding Electodes. 250.52(B) Electrodes Not Permitted for Grounding. "The following SHALL NOT be used as grounding electrodes: (1) Metal underground gas piping system. (2) Aluminum electrodes." Again, if an metal_undergound_ gas pipe is connected to the grounding electrode system, it becomes a grounding electrode, and a violation of NEC. But that gas line must not be the earth ground electrode. If it's connected to the grounding electrode system, it's a grounding electrode and it _will_ dissipate electrons right along with other grounding electrodes that it is bonded too. Call it semantics, but it is much like what a ground to the water pipe now does. Ground connects to water pipe to remove any electrical currents that may be on that pipe; not intended to earth breaker box. Yes, an _interior_ metal water line is not intended to be a grounding electrode, but it is required to be bonded to the service equipment, just like an _interior_ gas line.........to protect from shock should it become energized. OTOH, an _underground_ metal water pipe 10 feet or longer _must_ be used as a grounding electrode per NEC Section 250.50 Grounding Electrode System. "If available on the premises at each building or structure served, each item in 250.52(A)(1) through (A)(6) shall be bonded together to form the grounding electrode system." These are all the grounding electrodes that I listed earlier......of which, a metal underground water pipe is first on the list. While newer houses obviously no longer have metal water supply lines, many older houses _do_. Not only must the metal underground water pipe be used as a grounding electrode, IF available, but it _must_ be supplemented by an additional grounding electrode (this is usually, but not restricted too, a ground rod) in the event that the Water Co. decides to replace an old, leaking metal water line with a new plastic one. Yes water pipe does act like an earth ground from perspective of breaker box. But the intention of that connection is for human safety and no longer is for earthing. Depends on whether the supply line is plastic or not. A metal underground water pipe is still _required_ to be used for earthing, IF available. See above. Same with that ground wire connection to gas pipe. ONLY for an _interior_ gas line. If connection to gas pipe was the only earth ground connection, then gas pipe would be serving as central earthing ground - not acceptable. Nor is it acceptable to connect the underground gas line to the grounding electrode system. If the underground metal gas pipe is connected to the grounding electrode system.......it's becomes a grounding electrode, see above. Please define your term "central earth ground." Multiple grounding electrodes, bonded together are considered a _single_ grounding electrode system per NEC. Like I stated in a previous post, for matters of practicality, your term "central earth ground" is the point where the grounded service conductor (neutral) is bonded by the main bonding jumper (usually a green screw or a bond strap or bar) to the service equipment metal enclosure (including the meter) and the branch circuit equipment grounding conductors, _and_ where the connection to the grounding electrode system (mulitiple grounding electrodes bonded together.) Depending on local jurisdiction, the connection the grounding electrode system may be at the meter. An example that is common practice is for the teleco to connect the wire from their primary protector to the bare #4 copper wire (grounding electrode conductor that is connected to the neutral bus bar) that is exposed on it's way to the first electrode in the grounding electrode system (only one of many possible methods.) It's considered as connected to "central earth ground" this way. The same for cable TV. IOW, your term, "central earth ground", to me, _is_ the grounding electrode system. But if all other utilities connect to another central earth ground, then gas pipe is really only one of many earth grounds from the perspective of breaker box, And _not_ permitted. If you insist that your local power and gas co.'s require this, I'd be interested to know who they are. and may even be too far to be considered earth ground to breaker box. But, and again, other utilities must be earthed at central earth ground (ie directly on top of earth ground rod) Again, define "central earth ground." A ground rod is probably the worst grounding electrode that can be used as it will only dissipate so many electrons in a given time limit........that's why, if a ground rod is the _sole_ connection to a service, no matter what the size, that a grounding electrode conductor not larger than a #6 is not required. The ground rod chokes down the current such that it will dissipate no more than what a #6 conductor will handle.......again, this is for a _sole_ connection ONLY. Which is why the NEC encourages multiple grounding electrodes, bonded together to form a _single_ grounding electrode _system_. IMHO, this grounding electrode system, and its' connection to the service equipment neutral bus bar is what you should be referring too as "central earth ground", especially in your discussion of differential and common mode surges as related to point-of-use surge protectors, since the neutral and equipment grounding conductors are bonded at the service equipment neutral bus bar (and/or the meter) and affects the discussion. Please define your terms differential and common mode surges too.......or provide a web page that all can agree upon. I know what my definition is, but let's make it clear so that all are on the same page. For example, I consider a differential mode to also be called normal mode. Or shall we use "Mode 1" and Mode 2" as collaborated between the US Govenment and UL 1449? Is All-Mode also Mode 2? Again, let's use the same terms so as to make it clear what is being said. AND not earthed on or closer to breaker box. That means gas pipe is too far to be considered earth ground from the perspective of those other utilities. This electric and gas company has specific examples (including explosion) why it wants gas pipe connected to safety ground (breaker box ground). It does not want voltage differences across gas meter (again due to previous events). There won't be if the interior metal gas pipes are bonded to the service equipment via the circuit likely to energize the gas line via its' equipment grounding conductor as discussed earlier. Central earth ground may be all earth ground rods bonded together BUT earth ground connection is only made to one point - maybe one rod. No. it isn't, see earlier comments about how a single ground rod chokes the current flow, and is best supplimented by other grounding electrodes. The earthing network can be large, but best connected by everything only at one point. Yeah, at the neutral busbar in the service equipment and/or the meter. Earthing network is not connected to gas pipe. Safety ground in breaker box is connected to gas pipe. In many cases, the wire lengths may be so short as to make little difference as to what really is acting as earth ground. But that is how utilities now want their gas pipes connected so that house safety ground and gas pipe as it enters building are at same voltage potential; so that gas pipe does not become a significant carrier of electric currents. While this is correct, it seems to be a contadiction of what you've stated earlier. The key words here are "as it enters", not the undergound part of it. It also could be argued that this connection from breaker box safety ground to gas pipe is only one more reason why central earth ground should be enhanced - to be, by far, the best earthing ground on a property. In original posters case, a wire buried in earth may connect to buried gas pipe. No, it may _not_. Please state your references. NEC? IEEE? If it's an IEEE reference, please quote it, as most of us don't have access to them without forking out huge sums of money. So that gas pipe does not become central earth ground, that wire from breaker box should first encounter a rod (or rods) that are the central earth ground. If the gas line is connected to the same grounding electrode conductor as the ground rod, like it or not, it's part of the "central earth ground." |
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