Recently I moved into a century old rowhouse. I discovered that
turning off the ceiling light in the small living room turned off
almost every wall outlet in the room as well. Someone with an EE
degree tried to fix it, but could not. He concluded it would
require taking out some wall to find the problem area. I don't
really want to do that.

I would like to leave the switch on at all times and replace the
light fixture (which is cheap and unattractive anyway) with
something I can turn off and on another way. I would prefer not
to have a pull chain hanging in the middle of the room. What are
my choices here? How can I turn such a light off and on remotely
and leave the outlets hot? And where do I look for such products?

Thanks in advance,
Phil

On 04 Jan 2004, Phil Anderson wrote:

Recently I moved into a century old rowhouse. I discovered
that turning off the ceiling light in the small living room
turned off almost every wall outlet in the room as well.
Someone with an EE degree tried to fix it, but could not.

As God is my witness, this is not being typed with a sarcastic
or malicious tone, but: THAT WAS YOU MISTAKE.

Call an ELECTRICIAN (or "Home Handyman").

He concluded it would require taking out some wall to find
the problem area. I don't really want to do that.

It's very much likely that he was wrong. Absolute worst case
you MIGHT need a new wire fished through the walls. An
electrician knows how to do that without "taking out a wall".

I would like to leave the switch on at all times

You shouldn't have to do that to use your electrical outlets.

and replace
the light fixture (which is cheap and unattractive anyway)
with something I can turn off and on another way. I would
prefer not to have a pull chain hanging in the middle of the
room. What are my choices here?

Unless you're tall enough to reach the new fixture, not many.

How can I turn such a
light off and on remotely and leave the outlets hot? And
where do I look for such products?

Your electrician (or "Home Handyman" who knows electrical)
will find and fix the hack job probably done by some previous
owner, and you won't need to. Before you call them, go to
The Home Depot or Lowe's and buy your new light fixture, pay
no attention to the "need" for an alternative way of turning
it on and off, you won't have to. Have your electrician/home
handyman replace the old one for you while they're fixing the
hacked-up switch/outlets.

--
Baisez-les s'ils ne peuvent pas prendre une plaisanterie
--------------------------------------------------------
Tom Pendergast e-mail is for sissies, say it on line

Try this link http://www.kandbelectronics.com/kb-e...ics/rlm20.html
It is a remotely controlled light socket where you can leave the switch
on to keep your plugs energized and still be able to control the light
switch....Hope that was of some help....Jim



"Phil Anderson" wrote in message
...
Recently I moved into a century old rowhouse. I discovered that
turning off the ceiling light in the small living room turned off
almost every wall outlet in the room as well. Someone with an EE
degree tried to fix it, but could not. He concluded it would
require taking out some wall to find the problem area. I don't
really want to do that.

I would like to leave the switch on at all times and replace the
light fixture (which is cheap and unattractive anyway) with
something I can turn off and on another way. I would prefer not
to have a pull chain hanging in the middle of the room. What are
my choices here? How can I turn such a light off and on remotely
and leave the outlets hot? And where do I look for such products?

Thanks in advance,
Phil

"I-zheet M'drurz" wrote in message
...
On 04 Jan 2004, Phil Anderson wrote:

I would like to leave the switch on at all times

You shouldn't have to do that to use your electrical outlets.

this might be common in old houses
it is the same way in my living room. there's no light on the ceiling and
the outlets are there only to power lamps; turn on the switch and you turn
on the lamps which are the only source of light.

"Jim & Lil" jim.morris-at-sk.sympatico.ca wrote in message
...
Try this link http://www.kandbelectronics.com/kb-e...ics/rlm20.html
It is a remotely controlled light socket where you can leave the
switch
on to keep your plugs energized and still be able to control the light
switch....Hope that was of some help....Jim



"Phil Anderson" wrote in message
...
Recently I moved into a century old rowhouse. I discovered that
turning off the ceiling light in the small living room turned off
almost every wall outlet in the room as well. Someone with an EE
degree tried to fix it, but could not. He concluded it would
require taking out some wall to find the problem area. I don't
really want to do that.

I would like to leave the switch on at all times and replace the
light fixture (which is cheap and unattractive anyway) with
something I can turn off and on another way. I would prefer not
to have a pull chain hanging in the middle of the room. What are
my choices here? How can I turn such a light off and on remotely
and leave the outlets hot? And where do I look for such products?

Thanks in advance,
Phil

One should be able to split the hot so that power goes 1st to the outlets,
then switched power to the light. It depends where the power comes into 1st,
the switch, or the outlet.
See if this is any help.
http://www.homewiringandmore.com/swi...let/index.html

"Jim & Lil" jim.morris-at-sk.sympatico.ca wrote in message
...
Try this link http://www.kandbelectronics.com/kb-e...ics/rlm20.html
It is a remotely controlled light socket where you can leave the
switch
on to keep your plugs energized and still be able to control the light
switch....Hope that was of some help....Jim



"Phil Anderson" wrote in message
...
Recently I moved into a century old rowhouse. I discovered that
turning off the ceiling light in the small living room turned off
almost every wall outlet in the room as well. Someone with an EE
degree tried to fix it, but could not. He concluded it would
require taking out some wall to find the problem area. I don't
really want to do that.

I would like to leave the switch on at all times and replace the
light fixture (which is cheap and unattractive anyway) with
something I can turn off and on another way. I would prefer not
to have a pull chain hanging in the middle of the room. What are
my choices here? How can I turn such a light off and on remotely
and leave the outlets hot? And where do I look for such products?

Thanks in advance,
Phil

On 04 Jan 2004, j j wrote:


"I-zheet M'drurz" wrote in message
...
On 04 Jan 2004, Phil Anderson wrote:

I would like to leave the switch on at all times

You shouldn't have to do that to use your electrical
outlets.

this might be common in old houses
it is the same way in my living room. there's no light on
the ceiling and the outlets are there only to power lamps;
turn on the switch and you turn on the lamps which are the
only source of light.

Oh yeah, I've seen that situation often. When there's no
ceiling fixture, you can almost guarantee a wall switch will
control at least one receptacle designed to have a lamp
plugged into it. Only a slight disagreement, I don't think
that was done in -real- old houses like this one, it didn't
become popular until around the 50's, at least in homes built
in this area.

But the possibilities boggle the mind! Maybe the top of
EVERY receptacle in the room is wired to that switch, and the
bottom plugs are always hot? Maybe the previous owner hacked
in a ceiling fixture and didn't know enough to wire it to an
unswitched black wire, or ???

I guess that's my point: Somebody who knows what they're
doing (not necessarily an EE, in this case g) could take off
a few cover plates and sniff around, assess the situation and
get it straightened out. No busting out walls required!

--
Baisez-les s'ils ne peuvent pas prendre une plaisanterie
--------------------------------------------------------
Tom Pendergast e-mail is for sissies, say it on line

"I-zheet M'drurz" wrote in message
...
On 04 Jan 2004, j j wrote:


"I-zheet M'drurz" wrote in message
...
On 04 Jan 2004, Phil Anderson wrote:

I would like to leave the switch on at all times

You shouldn't have to do that to use your electrical
outlets.

this might be common in old houses
it is the same way in my living room. there's no light on
the ceiling and the outlets are there only to power lamps;
turn on the switch and you turn on the lamps which are the
only source of light.

Oh yeah, I've seen that situation often. When there's no
ceiling fixture, you can almost guarantee a wall switch will
control at least one receptacle designed to have a lamp
plugged into it. Only a slight disagreement, I don't think
that was done in -real- old houses like this one, it didn't
become popular until around the 50's, at least in homes built
in this area.

But the possibilities boggle the mind! Maybe the top of
EVERY receptacle in the room is wired to that switch, and the
bottom plugs are always hot? Maybe the previous owner hacked
in a ceiling fixture and didn't know enough to wire it to an
unswitched black wire, or ???

I guess that's my point: Somebody who knows what they're
doing (not necessarily an EE, in this case g) could take
off
a few cover plates and sniff around, assess the situation and
get it straightened out. No busting out walls required!

--
Baisez-les s'ils ne peuvent pas prendre une plaisanterie
--------------------------------------------------------
Tom Pendergast e-mail is for sissies, say it on line

There are four outlets in the room, and the top and bottom of each
is hot when the switch is on, and cold when the switch is off. I
have removed and replaced the switch and every outlet, without
changing the result. The EE does not claim to be expert on this,
but he did fiddle with the wiring in the switch. Several attempts
made things worse, none made things better. The wiring of the
outlets was not unusual in any way that I could see.

"Jim & Lil" jim.morris-at-sk.sympatico.ca wrote in message
...
Try this link
http://www.kandbelectronics.com/kb-e...ics/rlm20.html
It is a remotely controlled light socket where you can
leave the switch
on to keep your plugs energized and still be able to control the
light
switch....Hope that was of some help....Jim

This looks promising. If I put one or more of these into a
ceiling fixture, the bulbs will stick out further than before, so
I will have to take care that the "shade" still covers the bulbs.
If I use a multi-bulb fixture, I assume I will need multiples of
this device.

Am I correct that this
http://www.kandbelectronics.com/kb-e...ics/mc460.html is what
I need to control one or more bulbs in a single fixture? One
channel per device, right? Do I need anything else?

Thanks,
Phil

I was in a Lowes store yeasterday and they have all kinds of rf remote
control devices for lights. Might be cheaper than having to get an X10
rig for controlling just one fixture, and one adaptor per bulb, but
maybe not.

So if as you say, you don't want a pull chain hanging in the middle of
the ceiling, how about a pull cord from that chain running across the
ceiling through a few screweyes and hanging down against a wall
alongside that ineffective switch? (Ducking....)

Phil Anderson wrote:

"Jim & Lil" jim.morris-at-sk.sympatico.ca wrote in message
...
Try this link
http://www.kandbelectronics.com/kb-e...ics/rlm20.html
It is a remotely controlled light socket where you can
leave the switch
on to keep your plugs energized and still be able to control the
light
switch....Hope that was of some help....Jim

This looks promising. If I put one or more of these into a
ceiling fixture, the bulbs will stick out further than before, so
I will have to take care that the "shade" still covers the bulbs.
If I use a multi-bulb fixture, I assume I will need multiples of
this device.

Am I correct that this
http://www.kandbelectronics.com/kb-e...ics/mc460.html is what
I need to control one or more bulbs in a single fixture? One
channel per device, right? Do I need anything else?

Thanks,
Phil

--

Jeff Wisnia (W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"If you can smile when things are going wrong, you've thought of someone
to blame it on."

"Jeff Wisnia" wrote in message
...
I was in a Lowes store yeasterday and they have all kinds of rf
remote
control devices for lights. Might be cheaper than having to get
an X10
rig for controlling just one fixture, and one adaptor per bulb,
but
maybe not.

So if as you say, you don't want a pull chain hanging in the
middle of
the ceiling, how about a pull cord from that chain running
across the
ceiling through a few screweyes and hanging down against a wall
alongside that ineffective switch? (Ducking....)

I might, just might, even be willing to consider some sort of a
pull chain arrangement, but the other part of the problem is all
the fixtures of that sort I have seen either go on a ceiling fan,
or else are garage ugly.

Will check and see what I can find at Lowe;s. Is X-10 a mail only
kind of thing?

Phil

Phil Anderson wrote:

"Jeff Wisnia" wrote in message
...
I was in a Lowes store yeasterday and they have all kinds of rf
remote
control devices for lights. Might be cheaper than having to get
an X10
rig for controlling just one fixture, and one adaptor per bulb,
but
maybe not.

So if as you say, you don't want a pull chain hanging in the
middle of
the ceiling, how about a pull cord from that chain running
across the
ceiling through a few screweyes and hanging down against a wall
alongside that ineffective switch? (Ducking....)

I might, just might, even be willing to consider some sort of a
pull chain arrangement, but the other part of the problem is all
the fixtures of that sort I have seen either go on a ceiling fan,
or else are garage ugly.

It shouldn't take a brain surgeon to figure out how to drill a hole in
the bezel or whatchacallit part of the lamp which mounts over the
electrical box in the ceiling and put a pull switch in it.

Those switches are also available at Lowes or any decent hardware store.

Happy New Year,

Jeff





Will check and see what I can find at Lowe;s. Is X-10 a mail only
kind of thing?

Phil

--

Jeff Wisnia (W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"If you can smile when things are going wrong, you've thought of someone
to blame it on."

If it's your house, you could run a switch-leg from the light-fixture
to the entry-door, using surface-mount conduit. But it would
make more sense, to me, anyway to find someone competent
to make a map of how the place is wired, first. There's almost
certainly a way to make it work properly. *MY* guess is
that someone replacing the ceiling fixture swapped wires around
in it, and if you can figure out which wires in the ceiling box
go (respectively) to the switch, outlet, and power supply,
you can fix it with a wire-nut.

Are the outlets fed from the light fixture, or the switch?

Oh, and the "person with an EE degree" should not be
allowed to touch any of your home wiring, ever again.



Jeff Wisnia wrote:

Phil Anderson wrote:

"Jeff Wisnia" wrote in message
...
I was in a Lowes store yeasterday and they have all kinds of rf
remote
control devices for lights. Might be cheaper than having to get
an X10
rig for controlling just one fixture, and one adaptor per bulb,
but
maybe not.

So if as you say, you don't want a pull chain hanging in the
middle of
the ceiling, how about a pull cord from that chain running
across the
ceiling through a few screweyes and hanging down against a wall
alongside that ineffective switch? (Ducking....)

I might, just might, even be willing to consider some sort of a
pull chain arrangement, but the other part of the problem is all
the fixtures of that sort I have seen either go on a ceiling fan,
or else are garage ugly.

It shouldn't take a brain surgeon to figure out how to drill a hole in
the bezel or whatchacallit part of the lamp which mounts over the
electrical box in the ceiling and put a pull switch in it.

Those switches are also available at Lowes or any decent hardware store.

Happy New Year,

Jeff



Will check and see what I can find at Lowe;s. Is X-10 a mail only
kind of thing?

Phil

--

Jeff Wisnia (W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)

"If you can smile when things are going wrong, you've thought of someone
to blame it on."

"Goedjn" wrote in message
...
If it's your house, you could run a switch-leg from the
light-fixture
to the entry-door, using surface-mount conduit. But it would
make more sense, to me, anyway to find someone competent
to make a map of how the place is wired, first. There's almost
certainly a way to make it work properly. *MY* guess is
that someone replacing the ceiling fixture swapped wires around
in it, and if you can figure out which wires in the ceiling box
go (respectively) to the switch, outlet, and power supply,
you can fix it with a wire-nut.

Are the outlets fed from the light fixture, or the switch?

The outlets are on three different walls of the living room, with
the wires inside the wall. Turning off the switch turns off all
the outlets on that circuit breaker.

On 05 Jan 2004, Goedjn wrote:

... But it would make more sense, to me, anyway to
find someone competent to make a map of how the place is
wired, first. There's almost certainly a way to make it
work properly.

Exactly.

*MY* guess is that someone replacing the
ceiling fixture swapped wires around in it, and if you can
figure out which wires in the ceiling box go (respectively)
to the switch, outlet, and power supply, you can fix it with
a wire-nut.

I can't see it from here ($1 a.hvac) of course, but my guess
is that whoever did the hacked "add on" wired the outlets to
the switched black wire rather than the source black wire,
and it can be fixed in moments by somebody who

-knows- -what- -to- -look- -for- (*)

Oh, and the "person with an EE degree" should not be
allowed to touch any of your home wiring, ever again.

Exactly, #2. See (*) above. This person with the EE might
be the smartest EE in the world, that doesn't mean he knows
how to spot a mis-wired 120VAC circuit. It's not what they
look at 50 weeks a year.

--
Baisez-les s'ils ne peuvent pas prendre une plaisanterie
--------------------------------------------------------
Tom Pendergast e-mail is for sissies, say it on line

"I-zheet M'drurz" wrote in message
...
On 05 Jan 2004, Goedjn wrote:
[snip]
*MY* guess is that someone replacing the
ceiling fixture swapped wires around in it, and if you can
figure out which wires in the ceiling box go (respectively)
to the switch, outlet, and power supply, you can fix it with
a wire-nut.

I can't see it from here ($1 a.hvac) of course, but my guess
is that whoever did the hacked "add on" wired the outlets to
the switched black wire rather than the source black wire,
and it can be fixed in moments by somebody who

-knows- -what- -to- -look- -for- (*)

Oh, and the "person with an EE degree" should not be
allowed to touch any of your home wiring, ever again.

Exactly, #2. See (*) above. This person with the EE might
be the smartest EE in the world, that doesn't mean he knows
how to spot a mis-wired 120VAC circuit. It's not what they
look at 50 weeks a year.


Guys, I really wasn't trying to oversell the fact he has an EE
degree. He has several other degrees even less useful to the
situation at hand. It was just an interesting aside.

One other thing... I don't think this case qualifies as a hacked
add-on. The entire area was rewired, right down to installation
of a circuit breaker box at the same time, about 10-15 years ago.
Hacked by design, not hacked add-on.

That said, how do I distinguish the switched from the source black
wire?

On 06 Jan 2004, Phil Anderson wrote:

That said, how do I distinguish the switched from the source
black wire?

Use a simple neon "voltage tester" or a $10 Radio Shacq
multimeter, set to high AC Volts, one probe to ground,
The other probe used to check the 2 black wires attached to
the switch. With switch in OFF position, one black wire vill
have 120 VAC present, that's the source. The other will have
0 VAC present, that's the switched side. Actually it will
probably show a few hundred mV if you use a multimeter, don't
let that throw you.

If you picture all of the outles leading back to one black
wire (it's likely they do) if that black wire was connected
to the switched instead of the source, that would explain
the problem.

Sorry if it seemed like I was knocking the EE, just trying to
point out what a simple fix this could turn out to be.


--
Baisez-les s'ils ne peuvent pas prendre une plaisanterie
--------------------------------------------------------
Tom Pendergast e-mail is for sissies, say it on line

"I-zheet M'drurz" wrote in message
...
On 06 Jan 2004, Phil Anderson wrote:

That said, how do I distinguish the switched from the source
black wire?

Use a simple neon "voltage tester" or a $10 Radio Shacq
multimeter, set to high AC Volts, one probe to ground,
The other probe used to check the 2 black wires attached to
the switch. With switch in OFF position, one black wire vill
have 120 VAC present, that's the source. The other will have
0 VAC present, that's the switched side. Actually it will
probably show a few hundred mV if you use a multimeter,
don't
let that throw you.

If you picture all of the outles leading back to one black
wire (it's likely they do) if that black wire was connected
to the switched instead of the source, that would explain
the problem.

Thanks for the reply. Just to be sure I am not missing anything:
1. By "neon" voltage testers are we referring to the simple
devices where the bulb lights up when a current, any current, is
detected? Guess it never occurred to me the bulb was neon.
2. Is the ceiling fixture a likely place to find the wires
switched? I plan to replace it any event, so finding it there
would be a real bonus.

Phil
(not an EE, never played one on TV, either)

On 07 Jan 2004, Phil Anderson wrote:

Thanks for the reply. Just to be sure I am not missing
anything: 1. By "neon" voltage testers are we referring to
the simple devices where the bulb lights up when a current,
any current, is detected? Guess it never occurred to me the
bulb was neon.

Yep, that's it. Haha, now you've got *me* thinking about it!
Yes, they call them "Neon Testers" so I guess so. And just
to be technically correct, they indicate a *voltage* present
across 2 points. To get a measure of current flow *through*
those two poits is a bit more involved.

2. Is the ceiling fixture a likely place to
find the wires switched? I plan to replace it any event, so
finding it there would be a real bonus.

Much more likely it's at the switch. Very easy for somebody
to get confused over the two black switch wires and maybe
connect to the wrong side of the swith.

Good luck, I think that's about my best theory on what's
wrong. If that's not it, I'll be waiting to hear the results
along with everybody else.

Phil
(not an EE, never played one on TV, either)

Me neither, just a tech in electronics with a "Hard Knocks"
degree in Residential Electrical on the side.

--
Baisez-les s'ils ne peuvent pas prendre une plaisanterie
--------------------------------------------------------
Tom Pendergast e-mail is for sissies, say it on line

Personally, I opted for the pull chain option. It's cheap and easy.

Then I'd do away with the light switch and make it a perminent connection.

"Childfree Scott" wrote in message
om...
Personally, I opted for the pull chain option. It's cheap and
easy.

Then I'd do away with the light switch and make it a perminent
connection.

I've not completely ruled that out, but fixtures I have seen with
pull chains do not appeal to me as things I want in my LR. I can
drill a hole and mount a pull switch on some other fixture, but if
I go with a fixture with a glass cover, as is likely, then I have
to run the chain somewhere else, rather than let gravity decide
where the chain ends. All that is what got me started down the
wireless remote route with which I started this question. For
now, I am hoping to find switched black wires in the switch.

You make one real good point I had not considered. I'd been
thinking that if I did go the pull chain route, then I would just
leave the switch in the On position. Pulling the switch,
attaching the wires and installing a blank plate over the hole
makes a lot more sense. No point in getting it turned off by
mistake.

Phil

"I-zheet M'drurz" wrote in message
...
On 07 Jan 2004, Phil Anderson wrote:
[snippage]
2. Is the ceiling fixture a likely place to
find the wires switched? I plan to replace it any event, so
finding it there would be a real bonus.

Much more likely it's at the switch. Very easy for somebody
to get confused over the two black switch wires and maybe
connect to the wrong side of the swith.

Good luck, I think that's about my best theory on what's
wrong. If that's not it, I'll be waiting to hear the results
along with everybody else.

OK, I will check the switch out now. If that does not get me
where I want to go, and if looking around the box armed with my
new knowledge does not give me still more questions to ask here, I
may go back to my original plan of finding another way to turn
things off and on. I could remove the switch entirely and operate
whatever light fixture I ultimately install by either remote or
chain control, I guess.

Off to find my "neon" tester. I have a RatShack digital
multimeter somewhere (but where?!??) as well, but it sounds like
it won't really tell me any more than will the simple bulb.

Thanks again,
Phil

On 08 Jan 2004, Phil Anderson wrote:

... I could remove the
switch entirely and operate whatever light fixture I
ultimately install by either remote or chain control, I
guess.

Yep, that would make sense.

Off to find my "neon" tester. I have a RatShack digital
multimeter somewhere (but where?!??) as well, but it sounds
like it won't really tell me any more than will the simple
bulb.

"A place for evrything, and everything in it's place"?
($1 Ben Franklin, I think g)

Thanks again,

no problem, and please report back in whin it's all over, let
us know what you ended up doing.

--
Baisez-les s'ils ne peuvent pas prendre une plaisanterie
--------------------------------------------------------
Tom Pendergast e-mail is for sissies, say it on line

"I-zheet M'drurz" wrote in message
...
On 08 Jan 2004, Phil Anderson wrote:

... I could remove the
switch entirely and operate whatever light fixture I
ultimately install by either remote or chain control, I
guess.

Yep, that would make sense.

Off to find my "neon" tester. I have a RatShack digital
multimeter somewhere (but where?!??) as well, but it sounds
like it won't really tell me any more than will the simple
bulb.

"A place for evrything, and everything in it's place"?
($1 Ben Franklin, I think g)

Thanks again,

no problem, and please report back in whin it's all over, let
us know what you ended up doing.

Interim report:

Took way too long to find a tester, and it is getting late so I
will give up soon. Here is what I think I see so far. First,
there are a whole batch of white wires off to one side of the
switch box held together with a "nut." I do not see what they
do - they do not connect to the switch.

Second, there are two black wires twisted together part way back
in the box. This seems to be the source wire, since I get a neon
light with the switch on or off. A third 'jumper' wire is twisted
(poorly) onto those two wires. That jumper goes into the switch.

Third, there is another black wire that goes into the switch that
I do not see connected to anything else as I look deeper into the
box. I assume it is the switched wire.

Fourth, there is a large red nut just lieing loose in the box. I
will put it over the jumper twist.

Fifth, and I am not sure about this right now, there seems to be a
red wire off in the corner of the box. It does not seem to be
attached to anything, and to just sit there bare. What, if
anything, does that suggest? Will investigate further now, but
probably will not report back until tomorrow.

Sixth, I am under pressure to get off line, and will do so now.

Phil

"Phil Anderson" wrote in message
...

"I-zheet M'drurz" wrote in message
...
On 08 Jan 2004, Phil Anderson wrote:
snip

no problem, and please report back in whin it's all over,
let
us know what you ended up doing.

Interim report:

Took way too long to find a tester, and it is getting late so I
will give up soon. Here is what I think I see so far. First,
there are a whole batch of white wires off to one side of the
switch box held together with a "nut." I do not see what they
do - they do not connect to the switch.

Second, there are two black wires twisted together part way back
in the box. This seems to be the source wire, since I get a
neon
light with the switch on or off. A third 'jumper' wire is
twisted
(poorly) onto those two wires. That jumper goes into the
switch.

Third, there is another black wire that goes into the switch
that
I do not see connected to anything else as I look deeper into
the
box. I assume it is the switched wire.

Fourth, there is a large red nut just lieing loose in the box.
I
will put it over the jumper twist.

Fifth, and I am not sure about this right now, there seems to be
a
red wire off in the corner of the box. It does not seem to be
attached to anything, and to just sit there bare. What, if
anything, does that suggest? Will investigate further now, but
probably will not report back until tomorrow.

Sixth, I am under pressure to get off line, and will do so now.
I have time for one last followup:

A) Whoever twisted the black wires should be shot. I did them
much better, if not professionally.
B). The red wire is not connected to anything. The bare end does
not like it has ever been twisted or connected to anything. Is
this something I should be twisting into the source wire, on the
assumption that from there it goes on around the room to the
outlets that work only when the switch is on?
C) That's all for tonight. Hope to have time to play with the
switch tomorrow night, assuming you guys confirm the red needs to
join the twist.

Phil

On 08 Jan 2004, Phil Anderson wrote:

Took way too long to find a tester, and it is getting late
so I will give up soon. Here is what I think I see so far.
First, there are a whole batch of white wires off to one
side of the switch box held together with a "nut." I do
not see what they do - they do not connect to the switch.

That's the way it should be. Switches are strictly in the hot
side of the circuit, you should never be interrupting the
neutral wire with a switch. Bundled whites = good.

Second, there are two black wires twisted together part way
back in the box. This seems to be the source wire, since I
get a neon light with the switch on or off. A third 'jumper'
wire is twisted (poorly) onto those two wires. That jumper
goes into the switch.

Sounds right.

Third, there is another black wire that goes into the
switch that I do not see connected to anything else as I look
deeper into the box. I assume it is the switched wire.

Yes, should be. You can confirm that by seeing your light
track the action of the switch.

Fourth, there is a large red nut just lieing loose in the
box. I will put it over the jumper twist.

Sunds like a good chance that's where it came from, if there
was no nut on that twisted mess.

Fifth, and I am not sure about this right now, there seems
to be a
red wire off in the corner of the box. It does not seem to
be attached to anything, and to just sit there bare. What,
if anything, does that suggest?

Suggests that one of those cables coming into the box is a
14*-3 w/ground (it could be 12-3 w/g, for you nitpickers out
there) which is a piece of romex that carries two 120VAC
circuits. The Black and Red are the two hots, then there's
a White neutral and a bare ground.

Will investigate further
now, but probably will not report back until tomorrow.

I have time for one last followup:

A) Whoever twisted the black wires should be shot. I did
them much better, if not professionally.

B). The red wire is not connected to anything. The bare
end does not like it has ever been twisted or connected to
anything.

That's entirely possible. Not practical, but possible.

Is this something I should be twisting into the
source wire,

!!! NO !!!

on the assumption that from there it goes on
around the room to the outlets that work only when the
switch is on?

No. If it *IS* a live 2nd hot leg on the source
cable, you wil create a dead short across the 240V when you
touch it to the black, blow the breakers, and likely knock
yourself on your ass from the sparks and/or startling you'll
get.

C) That's all for tonight. Hope to have time
to play with the switch tomorrow night, assuming you guys
confirm the red needs to join the twist.

See, that's just it. Not to cop out on you now, but this
literally falls under the category of "I can't see it from
here" and all of the describing in the world can't take the
place of me bing able to eyeball it and start pulling other
cover plates, looking underneath that wall in the basement,
etc. Anything beyond what I'm about to say on the red wire
would be a total guess.

Your report so far says there is only one hot wire leaving
the switch. That means that somewhere in one of the duplex
boxes or maybe even in the light fixture box, the wire for
the outlet loop is attached to the switched hot intended for
the light fixture. That's just plain wrong, unless somebody
actually *wanted* the situation you have now.

Best advice I can give you is to:

a) test the end of the red wire to see if it lights the
tester. If so, it means it's hot. Screw a small (black)
wire nut on it and tuck it back into the box.

b) If by some chance there is no voltage on that empty red
wire, you may want to start pulling the outlets out of the
boxes and looking for a similar red wire in one of them.
Start with he ones physically closest to the switch.

In any case, DON'T connect it to anything until you're sure
where the other end of it goes!

c) If the red wire was cold, AND you found another loose red
wire in an outlet box, then we'll talk. But if not...

If the red wire WAS hot, either just go with your plan to
abandon the switch all together, or spend the cost of an
electrician for an hour to come in and fix it.


--
Baisez-les s'ils ne peuvent pas prendre une plaisanterie
--------------------------------------------------------
Tom Pendergast e-mail is for sissies, say it on line

"I-zheet M'drurz" wrote in message
...
On 08 Jan 2004, Phil Anderson wrote:

Took way too long to find a tester, and it is getting late
so I will give up soon. Here is what I think I see so far.
First, there are a whole batch of white wires off to one
side of the switch box held together with a "nut." I do
not see what they do - they do not connect to the switch.

That's the way it should be. Switches are strictly in the
hot
side of the circuit, you should never be interrupting the
neutral wire with a switch. Bundled whites = good.

Second, there are two black wires twisted together part way
back in the box. This seems to be the source wire, since I
get a neon light with the switch on or off. A third 'jumper'
wire is twisted (poorly) onto those two wires. That jumper
goes into the switch.

Sounds right.

Third, there is another black wire that goes into the
switch that I do not see connected to anything else as I look
deeper into the box. I assume it is the switched wire.

Yes, should be. You can confirm that by seeing your light
track the action of the switch.

Fourth, there is a large red nut just lieing loose in the
box. I will put it over the jumper twist.

Sunds like a good chance that's where it came from, if there
was no nut on that twisted mess.

Fifth, and I am not sure about this right now, there seems
to be a
red wire off in the corner of the box. It does not seem to
be attached to anything, and to just sit there bare. What,
if anything, does that suggest?

Suggests that one of those cables coming into the box is a
14*-3 w/ground (it could be 12-3 w/g, for you nitpickers out
there) which is a piece of romex that carries two 120VAC
circuits. The Black and Red are the two hots, then there's
a White neutral and a bare ground.

Will investigate further
now, but probably will not report back until tomorrow.

I have time for one last followup:

A) Whoever twisted the black wires should be shot. I did
them much better, if not professionally.

B). The red wire is not connected to anything. The bare
end does not like it has ever been twisted or connected to
anything.

That's entirely possible. Not practical, but possible.

Is this something I should be twisting into the
source wire,

!!! NO !!!

on the assumption that from there it goes on
around the room to the outlets that work only when the
switch is on?

No. If it *IS* a live 2nd hot leg on the source
cable, you wil create a dead short across the 240V when you
touch it to the black, blow the breakers, and likely knock
yourself on your ass from the sparks and/or startling you'll
get.

C) That's all for tonight. Hope to have time
to play with the switch tomorrow night, assuming you guys
confirm the red needs to join the twist.

See, that's just it. Not to cop out on you now, but this
literally falls under the category of "I can't see it from
here" and all of the describing in the world can't take the
place of me bing able to eyeball it and start pulling other
cover plates, looking underneath that wall in the basement,
etc. Anything beyond what I'm about to say on the red wire
would be a total guess.

Your report so far says there is only one hot wire leaving
the switch. That means that somewhere in one of the duplex
boxes or maybe even in the light fixture box, the wire for
the outlet loop is attached to the switched hot intended for
the light fixture. That's just plain wrong, unless somebody
actually *wanted* the situation you have now.

Best advice I can give you is to:

a) test the end of the red wire to see if it lights the
tester. If so, it means it's hot. Screw a small (black)
wire nut on it and tuck it back into the box.

b) If by some chance there is no voltage on that empty red
wire, you may want to start pulling the outlets out of the
boxes and looking for a similar red wire in one of them.
Start with he ones physically closest to the switch.

In any case, DON'T connect it to anything until you're sure
where the other end of it goes!

c) If the red wire was cold, AND you found another loose red
wire in an outlet box, then we'll talk. But if not...

If the red wire WAS hot, either just go with your plan to
abandon the switch all together, or spend the cost of an
electrician for an hour to come in and fix it.

Sorry to take so long getting back. It has been a busy weekend,
and I have barely had time to get the switch plate off. The red
wire is definitely NOT hot. NOt sure why, but it seems to me more
likely that if there is a loose red wire on the other end, it will
more likely be at the light fixture. Wherever it is I fear it
will be several more days before I get to look for it. Time seems
an increasingly scarce commodity.

Thanks for all the advice so far.

Phil

On 11 Jan 2004, Phil Anderson wrote:

(me)
c) If the red wire was cold, AND you found another loose red
wire in an outlet box, then we'll talk. But if not...

Sorry to take so long getting back. It has been a busy weekend,
and I have barely had time to get the switch plate off. The red
wire is definitely NOT hot. NOt sure why, but it seems to me more
likely that if there is a loose red wire on the other end, it will
more likely be at the light fixture. Wherever it is I fear it
will be several more days before I get to look for it. Time seems
an increasingly scarce commodity.

Take your time! lol

And actually, the red wire report is probably good news.

If the red wire wasn't hot, that means it's likely not on the
feeder cable coming in. IOW, It is *leaving* the box going
to either the light fixture or the start of the switch loop.

Once you figure out where the other end is, let me know, and
we'll take it from there.

LOL It's hard to walk away from a challenge, and you got me
hooked on this one.

--
Baisez-les s'ils ne peuvent pas prendre une plaisanterie
--------------------------------------------------------
Tom Pendergast e-mail is for sissies, say it on line

"I-zheet M'drurz" wrote in message
...
On 11 Jan 2004, Phil Anderson wrote:

(me)
c) If the red wire was cold, AND you found another loose
red
wire in an outlet box, then we'll talk. But if not...

Sorry to take so long getting back. It has been a busy
weekend,
and I have barely had time to get the switch plate off. The
red
wire is definitely NOT hot. NOt sure why, but it seems to me
more
likely that if there is a loose red wire on the other end, it
will
more likely be at the light fixture. Wherever it is I fear it
will be several more days before I get to look for it. Time
seems
an increasingly scarce commodity.

Take your time! lol

And actually, the red wire report is probably good news.

If the red wire wasn't hot, that means it's likely not on the
feeder cable coming in. IOW, It is *leaving* the box going
to either the light fixture or the start of the switch loop.

Once you figure out where the other end is, let me know, and
we'll take it from there.

LOL It's hard to walk away from a challenge, and you got me
hooked on this one.

I found a red wire in an outlet box to the right of and below the
light switch with a red wire. This one has a wire nut over it,
and like the other is not connected to anything. I did not test
to see if it was hot yet. The outlet wiring is a little odd, I
think, as two white but only one black wire goes into the duplex
receptacle. I thought they always had even numbers of wires.
I've seen two, four or eight before, but never three. Note that I
do not include the bare copper ground in any of these wire counts.

I am guessing you'll have more questions at this point, but rather
than go on endlessly describing the room, etc, I will stop here
and let you tell me what you need to know next.

Phil

On 15 Jan 2004, Phil Anderson wrote:
"I-zheet M'drurz" wrote...

LOL It's hard to walk away from a challenge, and you got me
hooked on this one.

I found a red wire in an outlet box to the right of and below
the light switch with a red wire. This one has a wire nut over
it, and like the other is not connected to anything. I did not
test to see if it was hot yet. The outlet wiring is a little
odd, I think, as two white but only one black wire goes into the
duplex receptacle. I thought they always had even numbers of
wires. I've seen two, four or eight before, but never three.
Note that I do not include the bare copper ground in any of
these wire counts.

AAAARGGH!!! Whoever wired this thing should be shot!

And yes, you should expect to see 2 black wires there, if the
outlet is anywhere except the last one in line, but if that were
the case then why the extra neutral wire looping out of the box?

(grumble)shot...

OK, if the supply side black wire isn't there, it almost has to
be in the ceiling mounting box. All you would *normally* have
there is one black coming in and it would be wire-nutted to the
black wire from the light fixture.

See if there is an extra black wire in that nut. If so, remove
it. If the light still works by the switch and the outlets are
totally dead, then you've pulled the right one. If all is dead,
then you need to swap with the other "heavy" black wire.
(assuming that the wire from the light fixture will be thinner
and easily identified). Put a wire nut on the single wire
that's not attached to anything.

If all of that is true, then report back. Remember, you're
looking to still have the light controlled by the switch *and*
to have the outlets dead, after you've removed 1 of 3 black
pigtailed wires at the ceiling fixture.

If that's NOT it, IOW, you don't have an extra black wire at the
light fixture, then I've hit a dead end.

--
Baisez-les s'ils ne peuvent pas prendre une plaisanterie
--------------------------------------------------------
Tom Pendergast e-mail is for sissies, say it on line

"I-zheet M'drurz" wrote in message ...
On 15 Jan 2004, Phil Anderson wrote:
"I-zheet M'drurz" wrote...

LOL It's hard to walk away from a challenge, and you got me
hooked on this one.

I found a red wire in an outlet box to the right of and below
the light switch with a red wire. This one has a wire nut over
it, and like the other is not connected to anything. I did not
test to see if it was hot yet. The outlet wiring is a little
odd, I think, as two white but only one black wire goes into the
duplex receptacle. I thought they always had even numbers of
wires. I've seen two, four or eight before, but never three.
Note that I do not include the bare copper ground in any of
these wire counts.

AAAARGGH!!! Whoever wired this thing should be shot!

And yes, you should expect to see 2 black wires there, if the
outlet is anywhere except the last one in line, but if that were
the case then why the extra neutral wire looping out of the box?

(grumble)shot...

OK, if the supply side black wire isn't there, it almost has to
be in the ceiling mounting box. All you would *normally* have
there is one black coming in and it would be wire-nutted to the
black wire from the light fixture.

See if there is an extra black wire in that nut. If so, remove
it. If the light still works by the switch and the outlets are
totally dead, then you've pulled the right one. If all is dead,
then you need to swap with the other "heavy" black wire.
(assuming that the wire from the light fixture will be thinner
and easily identified). Put a wire nut on the single wire
that's not attached to anything.

If all of that is true, then report back. Remember, you're
looking to still have the light controlled by the switch *and*
to have the outlets dead, after you've removed 1 of 3 black
pigtailed wires at the ceiling fixture.

If that's NOT it, IOW, you don't have an extra black wire at the
light fixture, then I've hit a dead end.

Finally got out to buy a new fixture (conventional, no attempt at
remote control games yet) and took the old one down. I found
absolutely nothing in the box that struck me as out of the ordinary.
Coming into the box was one black and one white wire. A ground from
the current ceiling fixture was attached to the box. That's it.

So, what I seem to have is a red wire that runs from one light switch
box to a duplex outlet box, and is not connected to anything on either
end. If I jumper it at the switch end to the live black wire, I will
have current at the other end with the switch in either position, but
it won't be connected to anything. If I connect that other end to the
duplex receptacle, it seems to me that I will always have electricity
at least at that outlet. Getting juice full time at just that one
outlet would be a major step forward.

That said, I have no intention of attaching anything to anything just
yet. First, you've already put the fear of god in me enough times.
Second, while I have found an end to a red wire in two different
locations, it seems to me there is still the possibility that I have
found two different wires, rather than both ends of the same wire. If
that is the case, who knows what else I could mess up?

Any further thoughts? If I confirm the red wire really is only one
wire, and that it is not connected at either end, can I hurt anything
by connecting just one end?

One more thought: While I am not sure of this, I think the switch
where I find the red wire on one end is the beginning of this
particular circuit. And the duplex receptacle where I find another
end of a red wire is the one I mentioned a while back as having two
whites and one black wire attached. We know the one black wire is
switched. Could this red wire effectively be playing the role of the
other black wire?

One more thing, and I guess it slightly contradicts what I
described before. There is one outlet (#1) in the room that is
not controlled by the light switch(#2). That outlet is closest to
the circuit breaker box. As you go clockwise around the room, the
next thing you reach, on the same wall, is the single light
switch(#2). Around the corner and on the next wall is the duplex
receptacle (#3) with two whites, one black, and an unconnected red
wire. The next wall has two more outlets (#4 & #5), and both work
only when the switch is on.

#1 is always hot. #2 has the switch with a wire that is always
hot. 3, 4 and 5 are switched. Is the mystery red wire a way to
get the last three outlets hot all the time? Or should I stick to
my day job?

Phil

On 25 Jan 2004, Phil Anderson wrote:

Finally got out to buy a new fixture (conventional, no attempt
at remote control games yet) and took the old one down. I found
absolutely nothing in the box that struck me as out of the
ordinary. Coming into the box was one black and one white wire.
A ground from the current ceiling fixture was attached to the
box. That's it.

Before we go on, I figure I owe ot to you to at least explain
"the missing link" he Whoever wired this has connected both
the light fixture *and* the whole group of outlets to the
switched power.

This means that *somewhere* in the room is what would be an
"extra" black wire. It could be two wires leaving the switch,
one going to the outlets, one to the light fixture, but you
don't have it there. OK, so we looked in the light fixture
box, and it's not there either (#@!*^&) Sooooo....unless
this was done with magic (highly doubtful) the "takeoff" wire
that goes up to the light fixture is out there in one of the
other outlet locations.

In each of the outlets, you should have a black wire coming in,
and a black wire going out, except at the last outlet on the
string, where you would only have one black wire, and it sounds
like that's the same one we're talking about, the same spot
where you found the other end of the red wire.

OK, we go on...

So, what I seem to have is a red wire that runs from one light
switch box to a duplex outlet box, and is not connected to
anything on either end. If I jumper it at the switch end to the
live black wire, I will have current at the other end with the
switch in either position, but it won't be connected to
anything.

True.

If I connect that other end to the duplex receptacle,
it seems to me that I will always have electricity at least at
that outlet. Getting juice full time at just that one outlet
would be a major step forward.

Yes. If you replace the single black wire with the (now powered)
red one, you will do that.

If you leave that black wire attached and attach the red to the
other "black" screw, you will then be supplying unswitched power
to ALL of the outlets. That might seem like a good thing, but
we'll get back to that later.

That said, I have no intention of attaching anything to anything
just yet. First, you've already put the fear of god in me
enough times. Second, while I have found an end to a red wire in
two different locations, it seems to me there is still the
possibility that I have found two different wires, rather than
both ends of the same wire. If that is the case, who knows what
else I could mess up?

Don't know if you ever found your multimeter? If so, and you
have a long enough piece of wire to stretch between the two
unattached red wire stubs, you could do a continuity check to
see if it is indeed the same wire. If not, you can attach at
the switch box and see if it results in power to the other
end, but you'll be doing that "blindly" so you may blow the
breaker when you try and energize it. If so, don't think it's
a fluke, take it as a sign that you need to disconnect and
regroup.

Any further thoughts? If I confirm the red wire really is only
one wire, and that it is not connected at either end, can I hurt
anything by connecting just one end?

If you do confirm it's the same wire, no, nothing hurt by
connecting power to source end. Just make sure other end is
taped or nutted to avoid contact with anything else.

If you do so, and confirm by now seeing power at the end out
in the outlet box, you can review the two possible scenarios
above for attaching to that outlet (the one that currently has
only 1 black wire.)

One more thought: While I am not sure of this, I think the
switch where I find the red wire on one end is the beginning of
this particular circuit.

That would make sense, considering how many wires are in there.

And the duplex receptacle where I find
another end of a red wire is the one I mentioned a while back as
having two whites and one black wire attached. We know the one
black wire is switched. Could this red wire effectively be
playing the role of the other black wire?

OK, best I can figure it, whoever wired this put that red wire
in place in case anyone down the road (like you) wanted to make
the entire outlet group energized full time (like you do).

This is where I promised you "more later" on energizing the
entire outlet group by *adding* the red wire rather than
exchanging it for the black...

If you do that, you will make all outlets hot all of the time,
but in the process, there is still that one stinking extra
black wire (that could be in *any* of the other outlet boxes)
which is shooting up and feeding the light fixture. In the
process of making all outlets hot all of the time, you will
do the same for the light fixture, making the switch useless,
which is how all of this started, isn't it??? LOL

To accomplish what you need/want to do:

You need to confirm that the two red wire stubs are the same
wire, and use it to deliver unswitched power to the entire
outlet group.

You need to find that ##@@&*%$ "extra" black wire in the unknown
outlet location and isolate those 2 (attached) black wires from
that outlet. The -other- black wire that stays attached to
that outlet will be carrying the "red wire" power from the other
end. Keeping those two already-attached black wires intact will
keep the switched power connected to the ceiling box, so your
light switch will still function.

Suggestion on where to find the outlet with the extra black wi
For the sake of getting some bearings, assume your light switch
is at 12 o'clock. Assume the outlet box with the other end of
the red wire and only 1 black wire is at 1 o'clock, I would try
the first outlet on the 11 o'clock side of the switch.



Maybe one more attempt to simplify the whole explanation?...

1) All of the outlets are "daisy chained" together in series.
You can energize the whole group by supplying power at either
end.

2) Right now, you are supplying switched power at end #1.

3) The "two-ended-we-think-it's-the-same-wire" red wire was
put in place by the wiring electrician so that you can
supply unswitched power at end #2.

4) If you do that, you'll need to remove the connection at
end #1, but leave that switched power connected to the
wire heading up to the ceiling fixture.

In doing that, you will have essentially "turned around" the
circuit, moving the "end-with-only-one-black-wire" to end #1
instead of end #2.

To reiterate: Whoever planned this in the beginning could have
done it in a much less cryptic way. (They should be shot) LOL

--
Baisez-les s'ils ne peuvent pas prendre une plaisanterie
--------------------------------------------------------
Tom Pendergast e-mail is for sissies, say it on line

On 25 Jan 2004, Phil Anderson wrote:

One more thing, and I guess it slightly contradicts what I
described before. There is one outlet (#1) in the room that is
not controlled by the light switch(#2).

Outlet #1 is likely not even on the same breaker. Have you
ever tried that one while you have the breaker off working on
our mystery circuit?

That outlet is closest to the circuit breaker box.

Probably not a factor.

As you go clockwise around the
room, the next thing you reach, on the same wall, is the single
light switch(#2). Around the corner and on the next wall is the
duplex receptacle (#3) with two whites, one black, and an
unconnected red wire. The next wall has two more outlets (#4 &
#5), and both work only when the switch is on.

When you read my other reply, #5 will be the location to look
for the "extra" black wire, the "11 o'clock" reference of mine.

#1 is always hot. #2 has the switch with a wire that is always
hot. 3, 4 and 5 are switched. Is the mystery red wire a way to
get the last three outlets hot all the time?

YES, in all likelyhood.

Or should I stick to my day job?

You're doing great. Stick with it, we're almost done :-)


--
Baisez-les s'ils ne peuvent pas prendre une plaisanterie
--------------------------------------------------------
Tom Pendergast e-mail is for sissies, say it on line

(sorry about the self reply, but it's an important afterthought)

On 25 Jan 2004, I-zheet M'drurz wrote:
On 25 Jan 2004, Phil Anderson wrote:

One more thing, and I guess it slightly contradicts what I
described before. There is one outlet (#1) in the room that is
not controlled by the light switch(#2).

Outlet #1 is likely not even on the same breaker. Have you
ever tried that one while you have the breaker off working on
our mystery circuit?

Or, it is simply wired first in line, before the power gets to
the switch location. In any case, it doesn't have anything
to do with the switched power, so it is not a factor.

--
Baisez-les s'ils ne peuvent pas prendre une plaisanterie
--------------------------------------------------------
Tom Pendergast e-mail is for sissies, say it on line

"I-zheet M'drurz" wrote in message
...
(sorry about the self reply, but it's an important afterthought)

On 25 Jan 2004, I-zheet M'drurz wrote:
On 25 Jan 2004, Phil Anderson wrote:

One more thing, and I guess it slightly contradicts what I
described before. There is one outlet (#1) in the room that
is
not controlled by the light switch(#2).

Outlet #1 is likely not even on the same breaker. Have you
ever tried that one while you have the breaker off working
on
our mystery circuit?

Or, it is simply wired first in line, before the power gets
to
the switch location. In any case, it doesn't have anything
to do with the switched power, so it is not a factor.

I have not had the chance to get back to the outlets since last
night, but I can respond to this one. #1 is on the same breaker.
It turns off with everything else if I flip that breaker. I think
you are right about it being first in line. That seems logical,
given its physical location. Then again, logic does not seem to
be a strong suit with this set-up.