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Electronics Repair (sci.electronics.repair) Discussion of repairing electronic equipment. Topics include requests for assistance, where to obtain servicing information and parts, techniques for diagnosis and repair, and annecdotes about success, failures and problems. |
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#1
Posted to comp.mobile.android,misc.phone.mobile.iphone,sci.electronics.repair
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Why would iOS be safer from spying than a well setup Android phone?
Why would iOS be safer from spying than a well setup Android phone?
What can Google possibly latch onto to spy on our Android actions? Specific things only. Not Marketing crap please. The iOS guys are constantly saying that just using Android alone is allowing Google to spy on us, which, they say, Apple doesn't do. They say they're much safer from spying on iOS than we are on Android. Ok. Where's the beef? (The iOS guys are like your basic used-car salespeople - they almost never tell the truth and they can only spout what the Marketing guys tell them to say - so we're not going to get any provable level of detail from them). Even though we won't likely get anything from iOS guys that they didn't read off of a glossy marketing brochure, I'll cc them, just in case they do know something of what they constantly talk about. Other than Google Mail and Google Maps and Google browsers (and other apps common to both platforms), what exactly are they talking about when they constantly imply they're safer from spying on iOS than on Android? Specifically, what does Google latch on to in order to "spy" on our Android activities that Apple doesn't likewise do? The Apple guys get all their ideas from the admittedly clever Marketing machine (which knows how to play to their intense fear) so I doubt they'll be providing any real details to their accusations - yet they still constantly accuse the Android users of being spied upon by Google simply for using Android. I just want to find out the correct answer to the question. Therefore, I'm just asking *how* Google can spy on us when we are using Android (that can't be likewise done when were using iOS)? I maintain a pretty clean single-desktop-pane privacy settings ship, where I keep a copy of all known Google-specific apps, to ensure I'm not logged into any one of them: http://i.cubeupload.com/oexktG.gif And, as you know, I've recently deleted my Google Play ID, where the Android phone works just fine without a Google ID - so Google can't latch onto my Google Play ID (which no longer even exists) to "spy" on my Android activities. Likewise, I've always had "Location services" set to the recommended privacy settings, so, apps aren't allowed to use my location: http://i.cubeupload.com/ugZ1fc.gif In addition, using App Ops Starter, I've turned off location access to all Android apps that I don't think need this information, for example: - Android Settings: http://i.cubeupload.com/mYSCjc.gif - Network Location: http://i.cubeupload.com/rfmqc7.gif - Android IP Service: http://i.cubeupload.com/ZCV3yC.gif etc. Furthermore, I have location turned off for non-Android apps also, for example: - Google Play Services: http://i.cubeupload.com/KbMWVM.gif - Google Search: http://i.cubeupload.com/ZUiP01.gif - ES File Explorer: http://i.cubeupload.com/mX8GaS.gif etc. Even though the "Advertising ID" menu (and a bunch of other things) are now no longer in the Android settings menus, I still can bring up "Google Settings" separately: http://i.cubeupload.com/N97c9S.gif And, in those "Google Settings", I can easily reset the "Advertising ID": http://i.cubeupload.com/SVpOs2.gif So, without a static "Advertising ID" (and ignoring Google Maps and Google Mail, which are special cross-platform apps that exist on iOS also), what Android-specific things can Google possibly latch off of to spy on us while we're using our Android devices that Apple doesn't also do on iOS? |
#2
Posted to comp.mobile.android,misc.phone.mobile.iphone,sci.electronics.repair
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Why would iOS be safer from spying than a well setup Android phone?
In article , Aardvarks
wrote: I just want to find out the correct answer to the question. no you don't. you've been told the answer numerous times and you just don't listen. |
#3
Posted to comp.mobile.android,misc.phone.mobile.iphone,sci.electronics.repair
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Why would iOS be safer from spying than a well setup Android phone?
On Tue, 02 Aug 2016 15:43:34 -0400, nospam wrote:
you've been told the answer numerous times and you just don't listen. I'm tired of your senseless riddles & rumor mongering UFO fears. You don't know the answer; you only know Apple marketing glossy literature. Facts are all that we ask for here. Not your senseless self-serving fear-mongering idiotic riddles. I provided facts in the OP. Now it's time to find out the answer from someone who knows how Android works (which isn't me - and it certainly isn't you). TO ANDROID USERS: Do you know *how* Google can "spy" on us, like the iOS users allude to? TO IOS USERS: You're welcome to add value - but please don't give us only glossy marketing FUD sans a single verifiable detail. |
#4
Posted to comp.mobile.android,misc.phone.mobile.iphone,sci.electronics.repair
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Why would iOS be safer from spying than a well setup Android phone?
On Tue, 2 Aug 2016 19:37:23 +0000 (UTC), Aardvarks wrote:
Ok. Where's the beef? You tell me. You seem to be the one that's beefing :-) . Cheers, -- tlvp -- Avant de repondre, jeter la poubelle, SVP. |
#5
Posted to comp.mobile.android,misc.phone.mobile.iphone,sci.electronics.repair
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Why would iOS be safer from spying than a well setup Android phone?
On Tue, 2 Aug 2016 22:28:23 -0400, tlvp wrote:
You tell me. You seem to be the one that's beefing I did provide all the facts I knew. You provided absolutely nothing of any value (so why do you bother?). 1. I don't log into Google apps: http://i.cubeupload.com/oexktG.gif 2. I turn off location services: http://i.cubeupload.com/ugZ1fc.gif 3. I turn off all Android location access: - Android Settings: http://i.cubeupload.com/mYSCjc.gif - Network Location: http://i.cubeupload.com/rfmqc7.gif - Android IP Service: http://i.cubeupload.com/ZCV3yC.gif - Google Play Services: http://i.cubeupload.com/KbMWVM.gif - Google Search: http://i.cubeupload.com/ZUiP01.gif - ES File Explorer: http://i.cubeupload.com/mX8GaS.gif etc. 4. Without a Google Account, it may very well be that the Advertising ID no longer exists; but, just in case, I tap on Google Settings to change it. http://i.cubeupload.com/SVpOs2.gif You clearly know even less than I do. So you'll *never* be able to answer the simple question. You live off of fear inculcated in you by Apple Marketing. Me? I just want the facts. So I ask the factual question, which, can be summarized as: a. Does not having a Google Play account eliminate the Advertising ID? (Deleting the Google Play account "appears" to remove all vestiges of the Advertising ID from the Android settings - so that "might" be the case that there is no longer an Advertising ID - but that remains to be proven.) b. Ignoring cross-platform apps such as Google Maps and Google Mail (which exist on iOS also), what Android-specific privacy things can Google possibly latch off of to spy on us while we're using our Android devices that Apple doesn't also do on iOS? So far, nobody knows of anything. The Apple Apologists (predictably) bring up nothing whatsoever of factual value (as if they all work for Apple Marketing because they live and breathe fear in everything they do). Facts don't scare me like they scare them. I'm hoping the Android aficionados will know the facts. |
#6
Posted to comp.mobile.android,misc.phone.mobile.iphone,sci.electronics.repair
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Why would iOS be safer from spying than a well setup Android phone?
On Wed, 3 Aug 2016 03:18:12 +0000 (UTC), Aardvarks wrote:
a. Does not having a Google Play account eliminate the Advertising ID? Facts only. It seems Apple iOS devices have a resettable Identifier for Advertisers (IDFA), which can be rest on iOS devices using: Settings-Privacy-Advertising-Reset Advertising Identifier. So, in that sense, iOS and Google seems to be similar; although it appears that the Google Advertising ID "may" be easily removable on non-rooted devices simply by deleting your Google Play account (still working on that premise). Apple iOS devices also have a Unique Device Identifier (UDID). |
#7
Posted to comp.mobile.android,misc.phone.mobile.iphone,sci.electronics.repair
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Why would iOS be safer from spying than a well setup Android phone?
In article , Aardvarks
wrote: Apple iOS devices also have a Unique Device Identifier (UDID). which apps cannot access and use to identify users. |
#8
Posted to comp.mobile.android,misc.phone.mobile.iphone,sci.electronics.repair
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Why would iOS be safer from spying than a well setup Android phone?
On Tue, 02 Aug 2016 23:51:07 -0400, nospam wrote:
Apple iOS devices also have a Unique Device Identifier (UDID). which apps cannot access and use to identify users. It seems that Google may have copied Apple in creating the Advertising ID in the first place, as stated in this article: http://www.businessinsider.com/googl...ks-like-2014-1 However, apparently very much unlike the Apple Advertising ID (IDFA), it is well known that Android users have long had the opportunity to opt out of Advertising ID (AdID) based tracking. Even more unlike the Apple Advertising ID (IDFA), so far, it seems that deleting the Android Google Play account may have also deleted the entire existence of the Advertising ID (AdID). The first clue is that the entire concept of the Advertising ID instantly disappeared from the Android settings menu when the Google Play account was removed. Another clue is this developer web page which states that the advertising ID works only when Google Play Services is available: https://developers.google.com/androi...tisingIdClient This article says the Advertising ID came from Google Play Services 4.0, which no longer exists on my phone, which implies no Advertising ID: http://www.androidpolice.com/2013/11...arts-aug-2014/ This article confirms that the AdID is composed from the Google Play account, which doesn't even exist, so it's probably not possible to generate a valid AdID: http://ccm.net/faq/34759-android-pre...advertising-id Probably the strongest evidence is in this article, which pretty much says that without Google Play Services (GPS), the advertising ID (AdID) can't be used by applications: https://dev.twitter.com/mopub/androi...rtising-id-faq But, Google Play account and Google Play Services aren't the same thing. Does anyone on the Android side actually know, for sure, that deleting the Google Play account and/or turning off Google Play services disables the generation or use of the Advertising ID? |
#9
Posted to comp.mobile.android,misc.phone.mobile.iphone,sci.electronics.repair
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Why would iOS be safer from spying than a well setup Android phone?
On Wed, 3 Aug 2016 04:21:07 -0000 (UTC), Aardvarks wrote:
But, Google Play account and Google Play Services aren't the same thing. Does anyone on the Android side actually know, for sure, that deleting the Google Play account and/or turning off Google Play services disables the generation or use of the Advertising ID? Facts only. While I had already limited Google Play Services using App Ops Starter: http://i.cubeupload.com/AAUQuo.gif To test how the non-rooted Android device handles the lack of both a Google Play account and Google Play Services, I removed or disabled these "apps" from my Android phone using the Android Application Manager: http://i.cubeupload.com/PV4AHO.gif 1. Removing the Google Play Store app: http://i.cubeupload.com/aWDZ9H.gif 2. Disabling the Google Play Services app: http://i.cubeupload.com/Y6XcAh.gif 3. Disabling the Google Services Framework app: http://i.cubeupload.com/6h3Whb.gif The result was that my admittedly cleanly organized desktop: http://i.cubeupload.com/Uld6T3.gif Just got cleaner, in that the Google Play app disappeared: http://i.cubeupload.com/pkGmQ3.gif And, even the "Google Settings" app disappeared! http://i.cubeupload.com/DoKW6g.gif Two facts: a. Deleting the Google Play account removed all mention of the Advertising ID (AdID) from the Android settings, but the "Google Settings" app icon remained, which had a menu for the Advertising ID. b. In addition, deleting and disabling the apps above, wiped out the "Google Settings" app, so now there is zero mention of any ApID anywhere in the Android device (that I can find). One hypothesis for the Android aficionados: - Have I entirely wiped out the AdID from my non-rooted device? If not - where is it? |
#10
Posted to comp.mobile.android,misc.phone.mobile.iphone,sci.electronics.repair
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Why would iOS be safer from spying than a well setup Android phone?
On 2016-08-03 06:34:07 +0000, Aardvarks said:
On Wed, 3 Aug 2016 04:21:07 -0000 (UTC), Aardvarks wrote: But, Google Play account and Google Play Services aren't the same thing. Does anyone on the Android side actually know, for sure, that deleting the Google Play account and/or turning off Google Play services disables the generation or use of the Advertising ID? Facts only. The only fact here is, you are talking to yourself. ....and you are answering. There is something disturbing in that. -- Regards, Savageduck |
#11
Posted to comp.mobile.android,misc.phone.mobile.iphone,sci.electronics.repair
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Why would iOS be safer from spying than a well setup Android phone?
On Wed, 3 Aug 2016 06:34:07 +0000 (UTC), Aardvarks wrote:
Two facts: a. Deleting the Google Play account removed all mention of the Advertising ID (AdID) from the Android settings, but the "Google Settings" app icon remained, which had a menu for the Advertising ID. b. In addition, deleting and disabling the apps above, wiped out the "Google Settings" app, so now there is zero mention of any ApID anywhere in the Android device (that I can find). One hypothesis for the Android aficionados: - Have I entirely wiped out the AdID from my non-rooted device? If not - where is it? Facts only - not fear mongering. I rebooted the phone to see if the removal and disabling of the Google Play Store app and Google Play Services and Google Services Framework would come back, but they seem to have stayed off upon inspection after reboot. The great news is that I can't find the Advertising ID anywhere on the Android system (this is an unrooted phone - so - to my knowledge - I'm the first one to document this - although I can't be the only one to have thought of something this simple). While it seems the Advertising ID is now entirely gone from my Android phone, one minor gotcha was that *some* of the Google apps fail to work with the three changes below: 1. Removing the Google Play Store app: http://i.cubeupload.com/aWDZ9H.gif 2. Disabling the Google Play Services app: http://i.cubeupload.com/Y6XcAh.gif 3. Disabling the Google Services Framework app: http://i.cubeupload.com/6h3Whb.gif Surprisingly, Google Maps still works but the Google Youtube App fails, by giving the clear message that Google Play needs to be "updated". Luckily, saving a youtube link from Firefox to the deskop completely replaces that pushbutton youtube app, so there's no loss in functionality. More surprisingly, the *default* SMS app that came with the Samsung Galaxy S3 (yellow and white envelope icon), failed to send messages. This was also easily worked around simply by installing a different SMS app from F-Droid, named QSSMS, which worked fine in back-and-forth test messages to the iOS user who switched from Android Nexus 5 to iPhone 6 a few weeks ago. I will test this further, but, it seems that everything else is working, but that there is no Advertising ID nor Google Play account nor even Google Play Services running on this unrooted Android phone. Given that fact, what could Google possibly latch on to in order to invade privacy? Can the iOS users likewise wipe out the Apple advertising ID altogether? |
#12
Posted to comp.mobile.android,misc.phone.mobile.iphone,sci.electronics.repair
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Why would iOS be safer from spying than a well setup Android phone?
On Tue, 2 Aug 2016 23:43:09 -0700, Savageduck wrote:
The only fact here is, you are talking to yourself. ...and you are answering. There is something disturbing in that. What's interesting is that you know *absolutely nothing* about this topic, yet, you still post your usual Apple-Marketing-induced fear-driven drivel. I am adding value to the overall knowledge level. If I'm the only one in this ng capable of adding value - so be it. For example, it seems that the primitive iOS operating system is far less private than the more advanced Android operating system at this point simply because I've shown it's easy to completely eliminate the advertising id on Android. Once I confirm that's the case, I'll see if it's possible to completely eliminate the similar iOS Advertising ID; but knowing how limiting iOS is, I suspect I'll have to "just give up" like you guys do all the time on iOS. Meanwhile, if I happen to know more than the rest of you about how to easily make Android private, then so be it. It's sad, because I know next to nothing about either iOS or Android - but if I happen to know more than anyone here does - that's just a fact. The great news is that it was trivial to remove the Google Play account, which, I think, in and of itself, is all that's needed. It was also trivial to removed and/or disable the Google Services applications and Google Framework applications - where the repercussions were extremely minimal - so that's also good news. 1. Some Google apps stopped working (e.g., Youtube). 2. They were easily replaced. 3. One Android system app stopped working (i.e., Messages). 4. Likewise, that was easily replaced. I'll keep testing and reporting back the results. I doubt the backward Apple-Marketing-driven iOS users can ever add the slightest bit of value to a technical thread such as this, so, I mostly ask the far more sophisticated Android aficionados if they have similar experiences where all vestiges of the Google phoning home have been so easily eliminated. |
#13
Posted to comp.mobile.android,misc.phone.mobile.iphone,sci.electronics.repair
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Why would iOS be safer from spying than a well setup Androidphone?
Am 03.08.2016 um 08:34 schrieb Aardvarks:
b. In addition, deleting and disabling the apps above, wiped out the "Google Settings" app, so now there is zero mention of any ApID anywhere in the Android device (that I can find). One hypothesis for the Android aficionados: - Have I entirely wiped out the AdID from my non-rooted device? If not - where is it? You seem to be unaware of the difference between data shown on a screen and data stored internally in a computer system. The only thing you've proven above is that you don't see this ID anymore in any (user accessible) screen. But you can't possibly know (at this time, after performing the steps you outlined) whether it's still stored somewhere in the system, nor whether it's still accessible by apps (or Android itself) whenever they choose to do so. Michael |
#14
Posted to comp.mobile.android,misc.phone.mobile.iphone,sci.electronics.repair
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Why would iOS be safer from spying than a well setup Androidphone?
Am 03.08.2016 um 08:47 schrieb Aardvarks:
I will test this further, but, it seems that everything else is working, but that there is no Advertising ID How do you know that? Not having it displayed on any screen is by no means the same as it not being there at all. Given that fact, what could Google possibly latch on to in order to invade privacy? There are other ways to identify a device, and we told you some weeks ago in another thread. IIRC you never came back on my statements, therefore I won't bring them up again. Can the iOS users likewise wipe out the Apple advertising ID altogether? 'Likewise'? You didn't prove that the ID is actually wiped out. And as for iOS: I have an easily reachable menu in the Settings app, where I can (and have ;-) ) denied Ad-tracking, and where I can even reset the ADID (by generating a new one). In which way is that less secure than your way, which definitively is too complex for almost all users? Michael |
#15
Posted to comp.mobile.android,misc.phone.mobile.iphone,sci.electronics.repair
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Why would iOS be safer from spying than a well setup Androidphone?
Am 02.08.2016 um 21:37 schrieb Aardvarks:
(The iOS guys are like your basic used-car salespeople - they almost never tell the truth and they can only spout what the Marketing guys tell them to say - so we're not going to get any provable level of detail from them). Even though we won't likely get anything from iOS guys that they didn't read off of a glossy marketing brochure, I'll cc them, just in case they do know something of what they constantly talk about. ... The Apple guys get all their ideas from the admittedly clever Marketing machine (which knows how to play to their intense fear) so I doubt they'll be providing any real details to their accusations - yet they still constantly accuse the Android users of being spied upon by Google simply for using Android. Do you really think it to be a good start of a discussion insulting one of the groups you hope to be participating? Me not... I just want to find out the correct answer to the question. No you don't, you want your view of the world confirmed. Otherwise you wouldn't have felt the need to insult the group that is most likely to be of a different opinion. Michael |
#16
Posted to comp.mobile.android,misc.phone.mobile.iphone,sci.electronics.repair
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Why would iOS be safer from spying than a well setup Android phone?
In article , Michael Eyd
wrote: I just want to find out the correct answer to the question. No you don't, you want your view of the world confirmed. Otherwise you wouldn't have felt the need to insult the group that is most likely to be of a different opinion. exactly |
#17
Posted to comp.mobile.android,misc.phone.mobile.iphone,sci.electronics.repair
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Why would iOS be safer from spying than a well setup Android phone?
On Wed, 3 Aug 2016 11:04:13 +0200, Michael Eyd wrote:
You didn't prove that the ID is actually wiped out. I am a scientist. 1. Like any true scientist, I provide my hypothesis that iOs is less private than Android when it comes to being able to easily *eliminate* the advertising ID. And, like any true scientist, I provided numerous references which backed up my claims and which supported the experiment that I devised and published out in the open. 2. Like any true scientist, I provided the exact steps to my *experiment*, which anyone on the planet can reproduce with any similar Android phone (mine is an S3 on Android 4.3). 3. And, like a true scientist, I provided the results and conclusion that the advertising ID was trivially easily completely eliminated from the Android system. Like any true scientist, I know *more* needs to be explored, such as the question of whether the Advertising ID is hidden somehow, and that similar tests need to be performed to see if it is as easy to eliminate the advertising ID on iOS as it was on Android. This is what scientists do. This is fact. Now, what do *you* provide? Words? Tht's it? Just words? You are not a scientist. You, and nospam and Savageduck and tlvp, etc., are merely iOS apologists who don't like the fact that it's trivially easy to completely eliminate the advertising ID on Android, while it's probably almost impossible to do the same privacy tweak on iOS. And as for iOS: I have an easily reachable menu in the Settings app, where I can (and have ;-) ) denied Ad-tracking, and where I can even reset the ADID (by generating a new one). Heh heh ... you really felt the need to say that? Really? Even nospam and Savageduck and tlvp didn't feel the need to say that what you have on Apple iOS is the same as what every Android user already has with respect to *resetting* the advertising ID and telling advertisers not to use it. You probably don't even *understand* what I just wrote - but I'm sure nospam (who, despite his constant baseless lies, actually *does* understand everything that I write). |
#18
Posted to comp.mobile.android,misc.phone.mobile.iphone,sci.electronics.repair
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Why would iOS be safer from spying than a well setup Android phone?
In article , Aardvarks
wrote: You didn't prove that the ID is actually wiped out. I am a scientist. not a very good one. 1. Like any true scientist, I provide my hypothesis that iOs is less private than Android when it comes to being able to easily *eliminate* the advertising ID. And, like any true scientist, I provided numerous references which backed up my claims and which supported the experiment that I devised and published out in the open. all of which have been refuted. instead of discussing these supposed tests, you start insulting and bashing anyone that doesn't agree. put simply: you have *no* idea what's going on or how things work. You probably don't even *understand* what I just wrote - but I'm sure nospam (who, despite his constant baseless lies, actually *does* understand everything that I write). the first part is more of your bull****, but for the second part, *far* more than you realize. |
#19
Posted to comp.mobile.android,misc.phone.mobile.iphone,sci.electronics.repair
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Why would iOS be safer from spying than a well setup Android phone?
On Wed, 3 Aug 2016 10:57:46 +0200, Michael Eyd wrote:
You seem to be unaware of the difference between data shown on a screen and data stored internally in a computer system. The only thing you've proven above is that you don't see this ID anymore in any (user accessible) screen. But you can't possibly know (at this time, after performing the steps you outlined) whether it's still stored somewhere in the system, nor whether it's still accessible by apps (or Android itself) whenever they choose to do so. I am a scientist. 1. I proposed my hypothesis & my references backing it up. 2. I showed the exact steps of my experiment for anyone to reproduce. 3. I showed the results for anyone to prove wrong. And what do you provide? You *saying* there is a super-secret hidden secret advertising ID that is secretly generated outside the well-known mechanisms that the references prove exist, merely means that you're stretching for a conspiracy theory to support your erroneous beliefs. What are your references? Where is your experiment? Where is your proof? You may as well tell me the earth is flat. I often wonder why you Apple people resort to such lies, but I finally figured why you make up *everything* in your self-imposed contrived world that Apple Marketing so safely (says they have) built for you: a. You're scared witless (hoping that Apple Marketing will protect you) b. You only care about style (which Apple Marketing surely provides) c. You accept single-button-mouse solutions (from Apple Marketing) Fact: - It's trivially easy to completely eliminate the Advertising ID from an unrooted Android device (my test was on an S3 with Android 4.3). Hypothesis: - It's impossible to do the same privacy tweak on unrooted iOS. I'm a scientist. I'm not afraid of facts. Prove me wrong. |
#20
Posted to comp.mobile.android,misc.phone.mobile.iphone,sci.electronics.repair
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Why would iOS be safer from spying than a well setup Android phone?
In article , Aardvarks
wrote: Where is your proof? apple and android developer documentation. |
#21
Posted to comp.mobile.android,misc.phone.mobile.iphone,sci.electronics.repair
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Why would iOS be safer from spying than a well setup Android phone?
On Wed, 03 Aug 2016 15:33:48 -0400, nospam wrote:
Where is your proof? apple and android developer documentation. Remember: I already referenced the exact android developer documentation which supported the experiment that I devised based on reading those documents (which told me exactly which services generated the AdID!). As always, you reference absolutely nothing. This used to bother me. Until I realized... a. You are afraid of facts b. You want Apple Marketing to save you from these facts c. They can't - because facts are facts (you thrive on Marketing lies). Fact: - It's trivially easy to completely eliminate the Advertising ID from an unrooted Android device (my test was on an S3 with Android 4.3). Hypothesis: - It's impossible to do the same privacy tweak on unrooted iOS. I'm a scientist. I'm not afraid of facts. Prove me wrong in that apple and android development document you so nebulously cite. |
#22
Posted to comp.mobile.android,misc.phone.mobile.iphone,sci.electronics.repair
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Why would iOS be safer from spying than a well setup Android phone?
In article , Aardvarks
wrote: Where is your proof? apple and android developer documentation. Remember: I already referenced the exact android developer documentation which supported the experiment that I devised based on reading those documents (which told me exactly which services generated the AdID!). no you didn't. you have *no* idea what how the advertising id is used or how someone can be tracked *without* it. you're fixated on removing something that doesn't actually make much of a difference. |
#23
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Why would iOS be safer from spying than a well setup Androidphone?
Am 03.08.2016 um 21:13 schrieb Aardvarks:
On Wed, 3 Aug 2016 11:04:13 +0200, Michael Eyd wrote: You didn't prove that the ID is actually wiped out. I am a scientist. Questionable. Very questionable, indeed. 1. Like any true scientist, I provide my hypothesis that iOs is less private than Android when it comes to being able to easily *eliminate* the advertising ID. And, like any true scientist, I provided numerous references which backed up my claims and which supported the experiment that I devised and published out in the open. The only thing you've proven is that this ID is now not to be seen anywhere in any of the Android Settings dialogues. But that does not mean at all that it is gone from the system. You still don't understand the difference between data being present in the system and data being presented to a user. 2. Like any true scientist, I provided the exact steps to my *experiment*, which anyone on the planet can reproduce with any similar Android phone (mine is an S3 on Android 4.3). Those steps are fine, just that they don't prove your claim at all. 3. And, like a true scientist, I provided the results and conclusion that the advertising ID was trivially easily completely eliminated from the Android system. Your conclusion is wrong (resp. cannot be based on your findings), and I pointed that out. Actually, that's what scientists do when reading other scientist's claims: Try to find weaknesses in them and point them out. Like any true scientist, I know *more* needs to be explored, such as the question of whether the Advertising ID is hidden somehow, Which directly contradicts your 'conclusion' that it's completely gone from the system. So now you're pulling back on your claim. and that similar tests need to be performed to see if it is as easy to eliminate the advertising ID on iOS as it was on Android. This is what scientists do. Right, but not the point in question. You're changing subjects, again. This is fact. Now, what do *you* provide? I provide what any good scientist provides: A fair criticism of the weaknesses of your claim. And I let the scientific community decide what they think of my findings. Actually, that's what's called 'scientific process'. Words? Tht's it? Just words? I don't need anything more to debunk your conclusion as 'not based on the given facts'. You are not a scientist. At least as much as you are. You, and nospam and Savageduck and tlvp, etc., are merely iOS apologists who don't like the fact that it's trivially easy to completely eliminate the advertising ID on Android, while it's probably almost impossible to do the same privacy tweak on iOS. So here we go again: Once you've proven wrong (like we did time after time on numerous occasions) you start insulting people. That's definitively not the behavior of a scientist. And as for iOS: I have an easily reachable menu in the Settings app, where I can (and have ;-) ) denied Ad-tracking, and where I can even reset the ADID (by generating a new one). Heh heh ... you really felt the need to say that? Really? Nothing more to hold against that? It must really upset you... Even nospam and Savageduck and tlvp didn't feel the need to say that what you have on Apple iOS is the same as what every Android user already has with respect to *resetting* the advertising ID and telling advertisers not to use it. Then why do you care? Just leave that part of my answer unanswered - but that wouldn't fit your need to be right on any occasion... ;-) You probably don't even *understand* what I just wrote - but I'm sure nospam (who, despite his constant baseless lies, actually *does* understand everything that I write). I do understand much more than you, including a lot about you. :-) Michael |
#24
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Why would iOS be safer from spying than a well setup Androidphone?
Am 03.08.2016 um 21:32 schrieb Aardvarks:
On Wed, 3 Aug 2016 10:57:46 +0200, Michael Eyd wrote: You seem to be unaware of the difference between data shown on a screen and data stored internally in a computer system. The only thing you've proven above is that you don't see this ID anymore in any (user accessible) screen. But you can't possibly know (at this time, after performing the steps you outlined) whether it's still stored somewhere in the system, nor whether it's still accessible by apps (or Android itself) whenever they choose to do so. I am a scientist. Then behave like one! And not like a kid, stomping your feet. 1. I proposed my hypothesis & my references backing it up. 2. I showed the exact steps of my experiment for anyone to reproduce. 3. I showed the results for anyone to prove wrong. And what do you provide? Like a good scientist I claimed (and gave reason for that claim) that your test is not suitable for basing your conclusion. *I* don't have to provide anything more, it's *you* who has to prove that your claim is still holding up, despite my well-founded criticism. If you knew anything about the scientific process, you would know that that's the way things work in the scientific community. You *saying* there is a super-secret hidden secret advertising ID that is secretly generated outside the well-known mechanisms that the references prove exist, merely means that you're stretching for a conspiracy theory to support your erroneous beliefs. Oh, more insults. Is that all you have? Not even one of your 'well-founded' test results, not even one of your 'explain-all' screen shots? No? Poor you. Let me make my point clear one more time: In your test you deleted the Google Play app. And I accept (without any problem) that you did so successfully. However, that does not mean at all that any background services for the Google Play Services are gone just as well. Nor does that mean that any data they stored is actually gone from the system. Just one example how that could work: The Google Play Services may store the AdID somewhere in a general Android storage area (seeing how easy it is in Android for one process to get access to the data of another process, that's easily possible, even without pulling the card of 'Google can do things with system parts that apps wouldn't be allowed'). But you're claiming that by deleting the app all the data from the background service are gone just as well. What are your references? I don't need any, I just need to raise reasonable arguments that *you* have to show as false or as not applicable. Reminder: Insults are not an accepted way of proving your point right. Where is your experiment? I don't need one. It's your experiment, you have to prove that it is a valid basis for your conclusion. Where is your proof? I don't need any proof. I only need to raise reasonable doubt. And I did. It's your task to dispel them. You may as well tell me the earth is flat. Oh, come on. That's even below your standards... I often wonder why you Apple people resort to such lies, but I finally figured why you make up *everything* in your self-imposed contrived world that Apple Marketing so safely (says they have) built for you: a. You're scared witless (hoping that Apple Marketing will protect you) b. You only care about style (which Apple Marketing surely provides) c. You accept single-button-mouse solutions (from Apple Marketing) And more insults... Fact: - It's trivially easy to completely eliminate the Advertising ID from an unrooted Android device (my test was on an S3 with Android 4.3). Which is yet to be shown. By you, by the way, not by me. Hypothesis: - It's impossible to do the same privacy tweak on unrooted iOS. I'm a scientist. I'm not afraid of facts. Prove me wrong. I showed that your conclusion cannot be based on your experiment. That's all there is to do for my role in this discussion. Dispel that or bring up a test that really proves your conclusion. *That's* the way science works. Michael |
#25
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Why would iOS be safer from spying than a well setup Android phone?
On Wed, 3 Aug 2016 19:13:43 +0000 (UTC), Aardvarks wrote:
You, and nospam and Savageduck and tlvp, etc., are merely iOS apologists who don't like the fact that it's trivially easy to completely eliminate the advertising ID on Android, while it's probably almost impossible to do the same privacy tweak on iOS. Please leave me out of this rag-tag gaggle of contributors. I have never in my life even held in my hand an iOS-configured object (no iGizmo of any sort, ever :-) !), so I hardly would qualify amongst "iOS apologists". Nor have I ever indicated I "don't like" whatever "fact" it is you're ranting about above. So please don't attribute to me what I've never even contemplated; thanks. Cheers; and carry on, -- tlvp -- Avant de repondre, jeter la poubelle, SVP. |
#26
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Why would iOS be safer from spying than a well setup Android phone?
On Wed, 3 Aug 2016 19:13:43 +0000 (UTC), Aardvarks wrote:
Even ... tlvp didn't feel the need to say that what you have on Apple iOS is the same as ... That's 'cuz I have no "need to say" things about what I know nothing about. In that regard I'm trying to set a good example; but it's not working :-{ . Cheers, -- tlvp -- Avant de repondre, jeter la poubelle, SVP. |
#27
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Why would iOS be safer from spying than a well setup Android phone?
On Thu, 4 Aug 2016 09:15:44 +0200, Michael Eyd wrote:
Like a good scientist I claimed (and gave reason for that claim) that your test is not suitable for basing your conclusion. *I* don't have to provide anything Michael, Again, I sure hope you don't vote. I'm sure *you* believe that a World War II Bomber is *still* on the Moon, simply because it's hard to prove (to you) that it's *not* on the moon. Given your acutely obvious scientific acumen, this is right down the "scientific" line of thought both you and nospam *consistently* display. - World War II Bomber now *missing* from the moon! http://preview.tinyurl.com/gvjt5fw https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunday_Sport |
#28
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Why would iOS be safer from spying than a well setup Android phone?
On Thu, 4 Aug 2016 03:54:40 -0400, tlvp wrote:
So please don't attribute to me what I've never even contemplated; thanks. Then why did your first post in this thread request: "You tell me. You seem to be the one that's [asking]" |
#29
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Why would iOS be safer from spying than a well setup Android phone?
On Thu, 4 Aug 2016 08:57:24 +0200, Michael Eyd wrote:
The only thing you've proven is that this ID is now not to be seen anywhere in any of the Android Settings dialogues. Michael I sincerely hope you don't vote. Look at this article, because it's something you'd eminently believe simply because it's hard to prove it's *not* there... - "World War II Bomber Found On The Moon" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunday_Sport http://tinyurl.com/gvjt5fw |
#30
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Why would iOS be safer from spying than a well setup Androidphone?
Am 04.08.2016 um 12:54 schrieb Aardvarks:
On Thu, 4 Aug 2016 08:57:24 +0200, Michael Eyd wrote: The only thing you've proven is that this ID is now not to be seen anywhere in any of the Android Settings dialogues. Michael I sincerely hope you don't vote. Look at this article, because it's something you'd eminently believe simply because it's hard to prove it's *not* there... - "World War II Bomber Found On The Moon" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunday_Sport http://tinyurl.com/gvjt5fw Wow, and you claim to be a scientist, to think scientifically, to prove everything you say. Instead you're insulting others (who didn't give any reason for that), you're changing topics whenever you feel cornered, you repeat claims that were already refuted and debunked instead of arguing about them. But you wouldn't know how to sensibly argue, and if had a recipe for that lying in front of you - as you've proven here time after time. You're nothing but laughing stock. Feel free to play that role even longer, feel free to play your silly little games even longer, feel free to think everybody but you is an idiot. But you'll have to do that without me from now on. Get lost, Michael |
#31
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Why would iOS be safer from spying than a well setup Androidphone?
Am 04.08.2016 um 12:54 schrieb Aardvarks:
On Thu, 4 Aug 2016 09:15:44 +0200, Michael Eyd wrote: Like a good scientist I claimed (and gave reason for that claim) that your test is not suitable for basing your conclusion. *I* don't have to provide anything Michael, Again, I sure hope you don't vote. I'm sure *you* believe that a World War II Bomber is *still* on the Moon, simply because it's hard to prove (to you) that it's *not* on the moon. Given your acutely obvious scientific acumen, this is right down the "scientific" line of thought both you and nospam *consistently* display. - World War II Bomber now *missing* from the moon! http://preview.tinyurl.com/gvjt5fw https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunday_Sport That's exactly the way you think, not me. Get lost, Michael |
#32
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Why would iOS be safer from spying than a well setup Android phone?
On Tuesday, August 2, 2016 at 3:37:29 PM UTC-4, Aardvarks wrote:
Stuff. Are you related to Danny D. by any chance? |
#33
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Why would iOS be safer from spying than a well setup Android phone?
On Tue, 2 Aug 2016 19:37:23 +0000 (UTC), Aardvarks
wrote: Specific things only. Not Marketing crap please. Even your Smartphone battery status is tracking your online browsing: http://tech.thaivisa.com/warning-your-smartphone-battery-status-is-being-used-to-track-your-every-move-online/16596/ http://randomwalker.info/publications/OpenWPM_1_million_site_tracking_measurement.pdf Resistance is futile. So it capacitance and inductance. You will be conglomerated into the data mass. -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
#34
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Why would iOS be safer from spying than a well setup Androidphone?
On 8/3/2016 5:07 AM, Michael Eyd wrote:
Am 02.08.2016 um 21:37 schrieb Aardvarks: (The iOS guys are like your basic used-car salespeople - they almost never tell the truth and they can only spout what the Marketing guys tell them to say - so we're not going to get any provable level of detail from them). Even though we won't likely get anything from iOS guys that they didn't read off of a glossy marketing brochure, I'll cc them, just in case they do know something of what they constantly talk about. ... The Apple guys get all their ideas from the admittedly clever Marketing machine (which knows how to play to their intense fear) so I doubt they'll be providing any real details to their accusations - yet they still constantly accuse the Android users of being spied upon by Google simply for using Android. Do you really think it to be a good start of a discussion insulting one of the groups you hope to be participating? Me not... I just want to find out the correct answer to the question. No you don't, you want your view of the world confirmed. Otherwise you wouldn't have felt the need to insult the group that is most likely to be of a different opinion. Michael So many complaints about this person and yet so many replies. People sure don't know how to ignore but sure know how to whine. |
#35
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Why would iOS be safer from spying than a well setupAndroid phone?
Aardvarks wrote:
On Wed, 3 Aug 2016 11:04:13 +0200, Michael Eyd wrote: You didn't prove that the ID is actually wiped out. I am a scientist. You're many things, but sorry you're no scientist. 1. Like any true scientist, I provide my hypothesis that iOs is less private than Android when it comes to being able to easily *eliminate* the advertising ID. And, like any true scientist, I provided numerous references which backed up my claims and which supported the experiment that I devised and published out in the open. 2. Like any true scientist, I provided the exact steps to my *experiment*, which anyone on the planet can reproduce with any similar Android phone (mine is an S3 on Android 4.3). 3. And, like a true scientist, I provided the results and conclusion that the advertising ID was trivially easily completely eliminated from the Android system. Like any true scientist, I know *more* needs to be explored, such as the question of whether the Advertising ID is hidden somehow, and that similar tests need to be performed to see if it is as easy to eliminate the advertising ID on iOS as it was on Android. None of which tests your original hypothesis. Pointless exercise. This is what scientists do. No. The traditional scientific method is you make an observation, develop a hypothesis based on the observation, design an experiment ideally to disprove your hypothesis, and then assess objectively whether the experiment had achieved your aim. Nowadays you can also develop hypothesis free experiments, generally where your large amounts of data in an attempt to develop a hypothesis. This is fact. Good scientist are rarely categorical. That's a fact Now, what do *you* provide? Words? Tht's it? Just words? You are not a scientist. You, and nospam and Savageduck and tlvp, etc., are merely iOS apologists who don't like the fact that it's trivially easy to completely eliminate the advertising ID on Android, while it's probably almost impossible to do the same privacy tweak on iOS. And as for iOS: I have an easily reachable menu in the Settings app, where I can (and have ;-) ) denied Ad-tracking, and where I can even reset the ADID (by generating a new one). Heh heh ... you really felt the need to say that? Really? Even nospam and Savageduck and tlvp didn't feel the need to say that what you have on Apple iOS is the same as what every Android user already has with respect to *resetting* the advertising ID and telling advertisers not to use it. You probably don't even *understand* what I just wrote - but I'm sure nospam (who, despite his constant baseless lies, actually *does* understand everything that I write). |
#36
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Why would iOS be safer from spying than a well setup Android phone?
On Thu, 04 Aug 2016 11:01:27 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
Even your Smartphone battery status is tracking your online browsing: http://tech.thaivisa.com/warning-your-smartphone-battery-status-is-being-used-to-track-your-every-move-online/16596/ http://randomwalker.info/publications/OpenWPM_1_million_site_tracking_measurement.pdf Resistance is futile. So it capacitance and inductance. You will be conglomerated into the data mass. Hi Jeff, I've given up responding to the Apple Apologists who infest the iOS newsgroup, so, you're the only one I'm responding to. Not one of them provided a *single* valid datum (and we knew that from the start). The iOS people can't comprehend actual *facts*. It's beyond their capabilities. a. They bought on pure style, facts be damned b. They fear so much that Apple Marketing plays them like a fiddle c. IOS users "just give up", which is how they handle their AdID privacy But on to your point... I *understand* your sentiment that resistance is futile, and I even echoed that by stating that neither iOS nor Android is inherently more secure because it's like saying which leaks water faster, a steel garbage can peppered by buckshot or a plastic recycling bin peppered by buckshot. However, with respect to *just* the advertising ID, the references I cited explained the program that generates it, and, wiping out that program wiped out the reference ID (as far as *anyone* can show) - so, at least on Android, the recycling bin has a few holes you *can* plug up. On the far more primitively less tweakable iOS, you can't plug those holes, so, they exist, no matter what you do. But, again, your point is valid that *both* platforms are so full of security holes that only people who actually believe everything that Apple Marketing spews forth would (falsely) feel more secure with one than with the other. Regarding your reference ... https://blog.lukaszolejnik.com/batte...-privacy-risk/ It's interesting that Firefox calls the smartphone battery API in order to figure out your battery level, such that the battery level can be used for fingerprinting. https://www.w3.org/TR/battery-status/ It's also interesting that it's "slightly* less fingerprintable if you're *not* connected to a charger. This is interesting because panopticlick, last I checked, did not look at this information - but - perhaps should. (I keep a clean browser from fingerprinting.) Also, when I look in App Ops Starter for the permissions granted Firefox, they entail only: - Location (typically I turn this off) - Modify clipboard - Read clipboard - Post notification - Vibrate - Modify settings - Draw on top - Camera - Record audio So, it's disappointing that App Ops Starter doesn't list that Firefox has access to the "Battery status" which is a *short-lived identifier*. If Apps Ops Starter listed that short-lived identifier, we could simply turn off that access from within App Ops Starter. As for protection against this fingerprinting threat, it would be nice if we can find an app that randomly adjusts the battery registers for the three battery parameters that are reported by the battery monitor API: 1. The current level of battery (from 0.00 to 1.0) 2. Time, in seconds, for the battery to discharge 3. Time, in seconds, for the battery to charge (only if connected) I read a few related references, which don't specifically mention laptops: http://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news...-user-privacy/ Do you think this Firefox battery-status fingerprinting also works for laptops? |
#37
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Why would iOS be safer from spying than a well setup Android phone?
In article , Aardvarks
wrote: On the far more primitively less tweakable iOS, you can't plug those holes, so, they exist, no matter what you do. invalid assumptions. |
#38
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Why would iOS be safer from spying than a well setup Android phone?
On Thu, 4 Aug 2016 20:13:16 -0400, Aardvarks wrote:
Do you think this Firefox battery-status fingerprinting also works for laptops? Some factual updates... The battery-status API privacy exploit works on multiple browsers and on multiple operating systems, including all the well known operating systems for both mobile devices and computers. Setting the following "about:config" option in Firefox should prevent the exploit that Jeff kindly informed us about: Change from: dom.battery.enabled;true Change to: dom.battery.enabled;false I'm not sure where the user.js file is located on iOS or in Android, but on your computer desktops and laptops, it will be located in "aboutrofiles". |
#39
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Why would iOS be safer from spying than a well setup Androidphone?
On 2016-08-05, Aardvarks wrote:
On Thu, 4 Aug 2016 20:13:16 -0400, Aardvarks wrote: Do you think this Firefox battery-status fingerprinting also works for laptops? Some factual updates... The battery-status API privacy exploit works on multiple browsers and on multiple operating systems, including all the well known operating systems for both mobile devices and computers. Does the exploit work in Safari? -- E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter. I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead. JR |
#40
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Why would iOS be safer from spying than a well setup Android phone?
On 6 Aug 2016 00:25:17 GMT, Jolly Roger wrote:
Does the exploit work in Safari? In a quick read of these references... https://www.theguardian.com/technolo...s-battery-life http://www.independent.co.uk/life-st...-10435578.html https://it.slashdot.org/story/15/08/...ack-you-online http://www.wired.co.uk/article/privacy-hole-in-firefox http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/smartphone-...xperts-1513979 http://mashable.com/2015/08/04/battery-privacy-html5/ http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technolog...-identity.html http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/te...-31423953.html http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/...d-the-internet http://blogs.wsj.com/digits/2015/08/...ow-to-stop-it/ http://eprint.iacr.org/2015/616.pdf http://betanews.com/2015/08/03/priva...ck-you-online/ http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencete...web-users.html http://www.repubblica.it/tecnologia/...ono-120471082/ http://www.liberation.fr/direct/elem...ouchard_14537/ http://tecnologia.elpais.com/tecnolo...07_043163.html http://www.nzz.ch/nicht-nur-der-akku...nutzer-ld.1278 http://www.police.be/fed/fr/actualit...on-insoupconne etc. (the last few are not in English though) It seems it's "a little-known feature of the HTML5 specification" which Firefox, Opera and Chrome support and it was "introduced by the World Wide Web Consortium (W3C, the organisation that oversees the development of the web¢s standards) in 2012". Here's a quote from the first article: https://www.theguardian.com/technolo...s-battery-life "The researchers point out that the information a website receives is surprisingly specific, containing the estimated time in seconds that the battery will take to fully discharge, as well the remaining battery capacity expressed as a percentage. " "Worse still, on some platforms, the researchers found that it is possible to determine the maximum battery capacity of the device with enough queries, creating a semi-permanent metric to compare devices". |
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