Ulysses wrote:
I have become extremely hesitant to buy any electronics any more. All of
the stuff seems to be crap that barely outlasts the warranty. For the first
time I actually paid for an extended warranty on a DVD recorder and ended up
needing it. I have to look at it now as if it costs $400 (including
extended 3 year warranty) then I have to pay $100 per year in order to have
the luxury of a DVD recorder. If it last longer than that then it's just
luck and I sure don't count on it. My daughter has a Kodak digital camera.
It lasted just past the warranty. Kodak wants more to fix it than a new one
with more features costs. Meanwhile my old Brownie, Instamatic, and other
cheap, bottom-of-the-line Kodak cameras still work fine. The Brownie is
probably over 60 years old.

Buy a Canon. All three of mine[0] are well past their warranty, & are
still going strong. (Including the original batteries!)

[0] An S30 digicam, an EOS-10D & an EOS-1Dmk2.

--
W
. | ,. w , "Some people are alive only because
\|/ \|/ it is illegal to kill them." Perna condita delenda est
---^----^---------------------------------------------------------------

wrote:
On Tue, 02 Jun 2009 02:03:46 +1000, Bob Larter
wrote:

Sylvia Else wrote:
Don Klipstein wrote:

Cheaper still requires oscillators regulated by component tolerances
- and oscillators tend to have at least two components affecting
frequency, and finest tolerance of ones easily available at premium
prices is 1%, meaning low chance of achieving timing highly reliably
better than 2% in either direction unless either crystal or power line
time base is used.
I'd have thought getting the cycle to within 10% would be more than
adequate.
It would be. Washing machines used to use synchronous motors driving a
cam, which was far more accurate than necessary to do the job properly.

Failure of mechanical timers on appliances is VERY common, and usually
results in the appliance going to the landfill.

Sure, but it was the cam/switches that would fail, not the motor.

Electronic controls, done properly, are far more reliable.

In theory, sure.

Yes, there
are some that are done properly!

I'm sure that there are, it's just that I haven't run into any.


--
W
. | ,. w , "Some people are alive only because
\|/ \|/ it is illegal to kill them." Perna condita delenda est
---^----^---------------------------------------------------------------

AZ Nomad wrote:
On Tue, 02 Jun 2009 02:00:02 +1000, Bob Larter wrote:
Sylvia Else wrote:
Steve Barker wrote:

Well when you get right down to it, why does it need circuitry at all?
It's a motor and a heat element.
Marketing. I saw a washing machine that was advertised as having
"crystal control". Presumably, it timed its wash cycles to one part in
10^9.

Jeez. I haven't run into that one in person, but it wouldn't surprise
me. The current craze for insane amounts of megapixels in digicams with
toy lenses is a very similar problem.

Reminds me of DVM's with 3 1/2 digit readouts and 1% accuracy. The last
digit is just noise.

Exactly. And don't get me started on the low ohms ranges of those meters...

--
W
. | ,. w , "Some people are alive only because
\|/ \|/ it is illegal to kill them." Perna condita delenda est
---^----^---------------------------------------------------------------

"Ulysses" wrote in message
...
|
| "Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message
| ...
| On Sun, 31 May 2009 12:12:03 -0400, George
| wrote:
|
| Its the "walmart syndrome" at work. People are trained to think that
| price and not value is all that matters. So manufacturers do their best
| to make cheap stuff to meet low price-low value demands.
|
| Yep. In consumer electronics, for every dollar added to the cost of a
| board, the final product ends up costing about $4 more at wholesale,
| and perhaps $6 to $8 more at retail. Needless to say, keeping costs
| in line is fairly important to the manufacturer. Minimal design and
| component selection is epidemic everywhere. Having worked on some of
| these designs in the distant past, I can assure you that the choice is
| make it cheap or it won't sell. I called it the "NBC" (Nothing But
| the Cheapest) effect. However, think positive. The only thing that
| has prevented electronics from hitting rock bottom in quality are the
| various regulatory and certification agencies, which demand a minimal
| level of quality to insure the survival of the user, not the product.
|
| Drivel: One of my friends is a rabid advocate for enforced quality in
| product design. He wants minimum Federal quality standards for
| consumer products along with mandatory lifetime testing, mandatory
| warranties, and litigatory relief. His theory is that if the US can't
| compete on the basis of price, it will need to do so on the basis of
| quality. Sounds like a plan.
|
| I have become extremely hesitant to buy any electronics any more. All of
| the stuff seems to be crap that barely outlasts the warranty. For the
first
| time I actually paid for an extended warranty on a DVD recorder and ended
up
| needing it.

Buy it with a credit card that extends the mfgr's warranty by up to an
additional year and forget the "extended warranty."

On Tue, 02 Jun 2009 06:07:28 +1000, Bob Larter
wrote:

wrote:
On Tue, 02 Jun 2009 02:03:46 +1000, Bob Larter
wrote:

Sylvia Else wrote:
Don Klipstein wrote:

Cheaper still requires oscillators regulated by component tolerances
- and oscillators tend to have at least two components affecting
frequency, and finest tolerance of ones easily available at premium
prices is 1%, meaning low chance of achieving timing highly reliably
better than 2% in either direction unless either crystal or power line
time base is used.
I'd have thought getting the cycle to within 10% would be more than
adequate.
It would be. Washing machines used to use synchronous motors driving a
cam, which was far more accurate than necessary to do the job properly.

Failure of mechanical timers on appliances is VERY common, and usually
results in the appliance going to the landfill.

Sure, but it was the cam/switches that would fail, not the motor.


Oh, I've seen plenty with a motor that stopped. Regardless, mechanical
timers are a glaring weak spot in appliances.

Electronic controls, done properly, are far more reliable.

In theory, sure.

Yes, there
are some that are done properly!

I'm sure that there are, it's just that I haven't run into any.

Take a look at a Fisher & Paykel. When they designed it, they started
with a clean sheet of paper. They didn't just slap a few blinking
lights on a conventional washing machine.

"brassplyer" wrote in message
...
I see these newer dryers and front-load washers have what I assume to
be some kind of IC control circuitry and from what I've seen my
suspicions about this being a likely point of failure appear to be
correct. LG warranties the motor for 10 years but the circuit board
only for 2. I'm betting it's expensive to replace too.

For as many years as this technology has been around, why can't the
control circuitry be made more bulletproof?

The majority are brainwashed to need a new one every 2 years without
question. Any company that builds to last more than 2 years will be
competing with itself and others and will fail because no one will pay twice
as much for a 4 year old model. Sure it is wrong to generate so much waste,
but you go out of business first, OK?

"brassplyer" wrote in message
...
For as many years as this technology has been around, why can't the
control circuitry be made more bulletproof?

Hmmm, do you think companies WANT their products to last forever? Of COURSE
these circuits can be made bulletproof, but have you heard of "planned
obsolescence"? Washing machine companies want to sell washing machines.
That means people's old washing machines need to irreparably break. So,
they design an electronics board with a finite lifespan, produce a finite
number of spares at the time of the original production run, and when those
spares are gone that machine is junk. Maybe that board is repairable, but
the labor involved to fix it is huge. Maybe they've stuck a proprietary IC
or 2 on there which fails so it CAN'T be fixed no way no how.

On May 31, 1:07*pm, "Bill" wrote:
It can be tougher!

If you ever go to an automobile wrecking yard, take apart something
electronic on a vehicle which has to do with safety. Like an anti-lock brake
electronic control module or an airbag monitoring module or the airbag crash
sensors. These things are built like a tank!

Then take apart something which does not have anything to do with safe
driving, and if it breaks, will not cause any safety issues. Like electric
door locks, power windows, power trunk release, etc. These are all a piece
of junk! And the switches which control these things many times will not be
sealed. This allows dust to get in and the switches stop working after a
period of time.

They want things to break, When things break, they get added revenue from
repairs. Some people will purchase a new vehicle instead of having these
things fixed. It means money for the dealers and manufacturer!

Actually I have seen many lower end products be better quality and the
higher end products have all sorts of things which are designed to break and
need service. I think they do this thinking lower cost product buyers don't
have the money for repairs, but higher end product purchasers do.

Sounds like the epitaph for GMC! We have neighbours who have
persistently bought Chevrolet/GMC pickups an a couple of mid-size GMC
cars during the last 30 years we have lived in same area.

The Chevs. a) Don't last as long as our Nissans. b) Take more time/
cost for repairs. And we are not talking heavy commercial/contractor
usage of the Chevrolet products, just back and forth on paved roads to
work.

In fact our smaller Nissan/Toyota pickups were used for commercial
catering work, carrying heavy loads of dishes etc. on a weekly daily
basis in all weathers.

Since both our neighbours and ourselves have helped each other do many
of the repairs we each have had an inside look at what has worn/needed
repairs on both types of vehicles.

But our more recent (Japanese) vehicles have been assembled/
manufactured in the USA and contain more 'Made in Mexico' or 'Made in
Taiwan' parts and have not had the quality of of our earlier vehicles
made entirely in say, Japan.

Interesting how the Japanese manufacturing went from tin-pot junk in
the 1930 to the high quality of today. A relative recently bought a
nine year old Lexus; a beautiful car!

Seems to prove that cost and profit and high short term bonuses for
auto executives were not the best policy?

And when it comes to home repairs/renovations etc. would one not
expect domestic appliance to last at least as long/longer than a well
used motor vehicle? However In one mid-eastern country we bought and
used a full size US manufactured clothes dryer that was of excellent
quality and capability, better than Italian and other European made
products.

"Dave" wrote in message
news:w9cVl.29090$Db2.28757@edtnps83...

"brassplyer" wrote in message
...
For as many years as this technology has been around, why can't the
control circuitry be made more bulletproof?

Hmmm, do you think companies WANT their products to last forever? Of
COURSE these circuits can be made bulletproof, but have you heard of
"planned obsolescence"? Washing machine companies want to sell washing
machines. That means people's old washing machines need to irreparably
break. So,

That is part of what got theAmerican car companies in trouble.
Also no one wants to pay more for a good product.

The old Comodore computer company had a replacement policy where you could
send the computer to them and they would repair it for a flat fee. They had
some unskilled labor to open up the case , throw out the electronics and
install new electronics. The new board cost them $ 50, the repair cost to
coustomers was around $ 70 to $ 80.
Cheeper to throw out the whole exectronics and replace it than the labor to
repair them.

The old Comodore computer company had a replacement policy where
you could send the computer to them and they would repair it for a flat
fee.
They had some unskilled labor to open up the case, throw out the
electronics
and install new electronics. The new board cost them $ 50, the repair cost
to customers was around $ 70 to $ 80. Cheeper to throw out the whole
exectronics and replace it than the labor to repair them.

30 years (or so) ago, GE simply replaced defective electronics with a
refurbished unit. The unit you sent in was placed in a pile, to be repaired
at a later date. This probably worked well, if a technician worked on four
or five identical units at the same time.

Ralph Mowery wrote:
"Dave" wrote in message
news:w9cVl.29090$Db2.28757@edtnps83...
"brassplyer" wrote in message
...
For as many years as this technology has been around, why can't the
control circuitry be made more bulletproof?
Hmmm, do you think companies WANT their products to last forever? Of
COURSE these circuits can be made bulletproof, but have you heard of
"planned obsolescence"? Washing machine companies want to sell washing
machines. That means people's old washing machines need to irreparably
break. So,

That is part of what got theAmerican car companies in trouble.
Also no one wants to pay more for a good product.

The old Comodore computer company had a replacement policy where you could
send the computer to them and they would repair it for a flat fee. They had
some unskilled labor to open up the case , throw out the electronics and
install new electronics. The new board cost them $ 50, the repair cost to
coustomers was around $ 70 to $ 80.
Cheeper to throw out the whole exectronics and replace it than the labor to
repair them.



I've obtained a lot of electronic stuff for free that only
needed simple repairs. I get computer mother boards that
cost $100.00 new and all they need is a keyboard fuse that
is easy (for me) to replace. A lot of people who claim the
title "service technician" have no idea how to repair a
circuit board. Many of the problems I see with modern gear
are caused by cold solder joints on the circuit boards.

TDD

Hi!

The obvious solution to this problem is to buy laundry equipment with
conventional electro-mechanical controls. (Assuming they're still made.)

They most certainly are. It's still quite possible to buy (at least in the
US) a washer or dryer with conventional, non-microcontroller-based controls.
Even some of these fancy-dancy front loaders are made that way:
http://greyghost.mooo.com/doingthela.../newwasher.jpg (494x691,
20KB).

I've been inside it once, and the internals are what you'd expect of a
machine much older. The timer is a simple mechanical one, water level is
detected by vacuum, and while the drum motor has an electronic controller,
it looks to be well made.

How it's possible to not make the microcontroller-based controls work
reliably for years and years is beyond me. Makers of microwave ovens have
managed to do so for years. I've *never* seen a microwave oven with a dead
control panel.

William

"The Daring Dufas" wrote in message
-
I've obtained a lot of electronic stuff for free that only
needed simple repairs. I get computer mother boards that
cost $100.00 new and all they need is a keyboard fuse that
is easy (for me) to replace. A lot of people who claim the
title "service technician" have no idea how to repair a
circuit board. Many of the problems I see with modern gear
are caused by cold solder joints on the circuit boards.

TDD

If you are doing it for yourself and do not count your time that is fine.
If you are paying someone to repair it, you are looking at around $ 50 or
more per hour labor. It may take several hours to get everything set up, do
the repairs and test out the finished results.
I used to do some repairs and still do on equipment that does not have the
smd or other components that take special equipment to work on.

William R. Walsh wrote:
Hi!

The obvious solution to this problem is to buy laundry equipment with
conventional electro-mechanical controls. (Assuming they're still made.)

They most certainly are. It's still quite possible to buy (at least in the
US) a washer or dryer with conventional, non-microcontroller-based controls.
Even some of these fancy-dancy front loaders are made that way:
http://greyghost.mooo.com/doingthela.../newwasher.jpg (494x691,
20KB).

I've been inside it once, and the internals are what you'd expect of a
machine much older. The timer is a simple mechanical one, water level is
detected by vacuum, and while the drum motor has an electronic controller,
it looks to be well made.

How it's possible to not make the microcontroller-based controls work
reliably for years and years is beyond me. Makers of microwave ovens have
managed to do so for years. I've *never* seen a microwave oven with a dead
control panel.

I have, several times.

--
W
. | ,. w , "Some people are alive only because
\|/ \|/ it is illegal to kill them." Perna condita delenda est
---^----^---------------------------------------------------------------

Ralph Mowery wrote:
"The Daring Dufas" wrote in message
-
I've obtained a lot of electronic stuff for free that only
needed simple repairs. I get computer mother boards that
cost $100.00 new and all they need is a keyboard fuse that
is easy (for me) to replace. A lot of people who claim the
title "service technician" have no idea how to repair a
circuit board. Many of the problems I see with modern gear
are caused by cold solder joints on the circuit boards.

TDD

If you are doing it for yourself and do not count your time that is fine.
If you are paying someone to repair it, you are looking at around $ 50 or
more per hour labor. It may take several hours to get everything set up, do
the repairs and test out the finished results.
I used to do some repairs and still do on equipment that does not have the
smd or other components that take special equipment to work on.


I tell customers all the time, this may not be economical to
repair unless you are very attached to it. Sometimes a special
piece of equipment is worth $85.00 per hour to them.

TDD

Bob Larter wrote:

William R. Walsh wrote:
Hi!

The obvious solution to this problem is to buy laundry equipment with
conventional electro-mechanical controls. (Assuming they're still made.)

They most certainly are. It's still quite possible to buy (at least in the
US) a washer or dryer with conventional, non-microcontroller-based controls.
Even some of these fancy-dancy front loaders are made that way:
http://greyghost.mooo.com/doingthela.../newwasher.jpg (494x691,
20KB).

I've been inside it once, and the internals are what you'd expect of a
machine much older. The timer is a simple mechanical one, water level is
detected by vacuum, and while the drum motor has an electronic controller,
it looks to be well made.

How it's possible to not make the microcontroller-based controls work
reliably for years and years is beyond me. Makers of microwave ovens have
managed to do so for years. I've *never* seen a microwave oven with a dead
control panel.

I have, several times.


Dozens of them.


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense!

Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Bob Larter wrote:
William R. Walsh wrote:
Hi!

The obvious solution to this problem is to buy laundry equipment with
conventional electro-mechanical controls. (Assuming they're still made.)
They most certainly are. It's still quite possible to buy (at least in the
US) a washer or dryer with conventional, non-microcontroller-based controls.
Even some of these fancy-dancy front loaders are made that way:
http://greyghost.mooo.com/doingthela.../newwasher.jpg (494x691,
20KB).

I've been inside it once, and the internals are what you'd expect of a
machine much older. The timer is a simple mechanical one, water level is
detected by vacuum, and while the drum motor has an electronic controller,
it looks to be well made.

How it's possible to not make the microcontroller-based controls work
reliably for years and years is beyond me. Makers of microwave ovens have
managed to do so for years. I've *never* seen a microwave oven with a dead
control panel.
I have, several times.


Dozens of them.



I've never seen a microwave quit for any reason. AND if it did, i'd get
out another $69 and buy a new one.

Hi!

I have, several times.
* *Dozens of them.

I probably should have qualified this a bit more. I wasn't saying
"this never happens", only that it seems to be rare. And I have seen
at least one where the display quit working, although the oven could
be used anyway. So I didn't count that one. :-)

I've also noticed that other parts of the oven are typically what go
bad first...things like fans, stirrer motors, relays, the odd old
tired fuse and sometimes the magnetron.

William

On Jun 3, 9:08*am, Steve Barker wrote:
Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Bob Larter wrote:
William R. Walsh wrote:
Hi!

The obvious solution to this problem is to buy laundry equipment with
conventional electro-mechanical controls. (Assuming they're still made.)
They most certainly are. It's still quite possible to buy (at least in the
US) a washer or dryer with conventional, non-microcontroller-based controls.
Even some of these fancy-dancy front loaders are made that way:
http://greyghost.mooo.com/doingthela...er.jpg(494x691,
20KB).

I've been inside it once, and the internals are what you'd expect of a
machine much older. The timer is a simple mechanical one, water level is
detected by vacuum, and while the drum motor has an electronic controller,
it looks to be well made.

How it's possible to not make the microcontroller-based controls work
reliably for years and years is beyond me. Makers of microwave ovens have
managed to do so for years. I've *never* seen a microwave oven with a dead
control panel.
I have, several times.

* *Dozens of them.

I've never seen a microwave quit for any reason. *AND if it did, i'd get
out another $69 and buy a new one.


Exactly. I just tossed away a 23 year old Jenn Air microwave that had
electronics and it was still working fine. I'm not convinced the
premise that washers and dryers with electronics are inherently more
prone to failure than other units is valid. I see most people in
this group with actual problems that are in the area of switches,
motors, water level sensors, solenoid water valves, etc.

Also, if you want to go a long way to protecting ALL your appliances
and electronics, you should install a whole house surge protector.

On May 31, 11:58*am, "Ulysses" wrote:
"brassplyer" wrote in message

...

I see these newer dryers and front-load washers have what I assume to
be some kind of IC control circuitry and from what I've seen my
suspicions about this being a likely point of failure appear to be
correct. LG warranties the motor for 10 years but the circuit board
only for 2. I'm betting it's expensive to replace too.

For as many years as this technology has been around, why can't the
control circuitry be made more bulletproof?

I had to replace the circuit board on my RV furnace. *The old one looked
like it was basically just underbuilt. *The circuit paths were very narrow
and all the components were the smallest values possible. *

Looking at the size of traces or components on an electronic circuit
board is just about meaningless. Almost all of these today are
digital, which work on signals of micro amps. The only areas
carrying any current of substance, typically are driving a relay,
solenoid, etc. or part of the power supply, if that happens to be on
the board. That area of the board does need to have the proper size
trace.




The replacement
board from a company that just makes circuit boards was much beefier plus
was a better design as far as function goes.

I don't get it because they could spend a few more bucks on the electronics
and make it more reliable and simply charge a few more bucks for the
appliance. *Instead they get a bad reputation.

In article
,
wrote:

Also, if you want to go a long way to protecting ALL your appliances
and electronics, you should install a whole house surge protector.

Dammit. Now you've gone and poked Tom, so he'll get up from his nap, and
he'll go and poke Bud, and we'll have another 75 posts on *that* topic.

In article , wrote:
On Jun 3, 9:08=A0am, Steve Barker wrote:
Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Bob Larter wrote:
William R. Walsh wrote:
Hi!

The obvious solution to this problem is to buy laundry equipment wit=
h
conventional electro-mechanical controls. (Assuming they're still ma=
de.)
They most certainly are. It's still quite possible to buy (at least i=
n the
US) a washer or dryer with conventional, non-microcontroller-based co=
ntrols.
Even some of these fancy-dancy front loaders are made that way:
http://greyghost.mooo.com/doingthela...er.jpg(494x69=
1,
20KB).

I've been inside it once, and the internals are what you'd expect of =
a
machine much older. The timer is a simple mechanical one, water level=
is
detected by vacuum, and while the drum motor has an electronic contro=
ller,
it looks to be well made.

How it's possible to not make the microcontroller-based controls work
reliably for years and years is beyond me. Makers of microwave ovens =
have
managed to do so for years. I've *never* seen a microwave oven with a=
dead
control panel.
I have, several times.

=A0 =A0Dozens of them.

I've never seen a microwave quit for any reason. =A0AND if it did, i'd ge=
t
out another $69 and buy a new one.


Exactly. I just tossed away a 23 year old Jenn Air microwave that had
electronics and it was still working fine. I'm not convinced the
premise that washers and dryers with electronics are inherently more
prone to failure than other units is valid. I see most people in
this group with actual problems that are in the area of switches,
motors, water level sensors, solenoid water valves, etc.

Also, if you want to go a long way to protecting ALL your appliances
and electronics, you should install a whole house surge protector.

When I moved into my new old house, a supressor was installed
on the electric meter. I did not want to pay for the service and didn't.
I wonder if they took it off ?

I work on stuff all the time where spills will take
out the ecectronics. They build it that way.
Centrifuges and shaker tables in mind.

greg

William R. Walsh wrote:
I've *never* seen a microwave oven with a dead
control panel.

Really! I`m amazed, I`ve repaired or replaced dozens if not hundreds.
Some are an easy fix, usually a duff capacitor or switch membrane, One
very common model of oven regularly suffered from a o/c resistor in the
supply to the display, others can be sent away for refurbishment at a
reasonable price in comparsison to a new board.

Ron

In article , Ron wrote:
William R. Walsh wrote:
I've *never* seen a microwave oven with a dead
control panel.

Really! I`m amazed, I`ve repaired or replaced dozens if not hundreds.
Some are an easy fix, usually a duff capacitor or switch membrane, One
very common model of oven regularly suffered from a o/c resistor in the
supply to the display, others can be sent away for refurbishment at a
reasonable price in comparsison to a new board.

Ron

I once replaced a dead panel with a mechanical timer. They are really nice though
for quick opperation and simplicity. All the orginals had them. My father loved it, allthough
it was the same as our Heathkit Microwave.

greg

GregS wrote:
In article , Ron wrote:
William R. Walsh wrote:
I've *never* seen a microwave oven with a dead
control panel.
Really! I`m amazed, I`ve repaired or replaced dozens if not hundreds.
Some are an easy fix, usually a duff capacitor or switch membrane, One
very common model of oven regularly suffered from a o/c resistor in the
supply to the display, others can be sent away for refurbishment at a
reasonable price in comparsison to a new board.

Ron

I once replaced a dead panel with a mechanical timer. They are really nice though
for quick opperation and simplicity. All the orginals had them. My father loved it, allthough
it was the same as our Heathkit Microwave.


Well, mechanical timers fail also, usually the coil fails in 'Crouzet
type' motor driven ones. or the microswitches go intermittent. They can
often be ressurected.

Ron(UK)

Steve Barker wrote:

I've never seen a microwave quit for any reason. AND if it did, i'd get
out another $69 and buy a new one.


And another piece of Chinese crap, a year later? I see a pile of
dead microwaves every time I haul my recyclables to the landfill. I
have a brand new Westinghouse microwave, still in the carton, but I
prefer the 20 year old one, because it is higher power, and cooks
better.

i repaired some microwaves, 20+ years ago, because they were worth
repairing. They used stainless steel for the interior, so you didn't get
peeling paint, and rust inside. The only bad thing was they had no
turntable, ut you could buy an all plastic windup turntable for about
$4.


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense!

wrote:

Looking at the size of traces or components on an electronic circuit
board is just about meaningless. Almost all of these today are
digital, which work on signals of micro amps.


Bull****. low currents, yes, but you need to read some datasheets. I
worked at a manufacturer of top of the line telemetry equipment. Traces
that are very thin are prone to stress cracks. My specialty was the
embedded controller computer board we built in house, and they had to be
reliable. They controlled the equipment NASA uses to track their
launches, and all their satellites.


The only areas
carrying any current of substance, typically are driving a relay,
solenoid, etc. or part of the power supply, if that happens to be on
the board. That area of the board does need to have the proper size
trace.


I'm happy that I never had to work with you. A washer or dryer is a
damp environment, with continuous vibration, while in use. Potting will
keep most of the moisture away, but that can cause SMD components to be
pulled off the board. A sealed container is better, but can add to the
vibration problems, due to the extra weight.

--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense!

On Wed, 03 Jun 2009 08:08:34 -0500, Steve Barker
wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Bob Larter wrote:
William R. Walsh wrote:
Hi!

The obvious solution to this problem is to buy laundry equipment with
conventional electro-mechanical controls. (Assuming they're still made.)
They most certainly are. It's still quite possible to buy (at least in the
US) a washer or dryer with conventional, non-microcontroller-based controls.
Even some of these fancy-dancy front loaders are made that way:
http://greyghost.mooo.com/doingthela.../newwasher.jpg (494x691,
20KB).

I've been inside it once, and the internals are what you'd expect of a
machine much older. The timer is a simple mechanical one, water level is
detected by vacuum, and while the drum motor has an electronic controller,
it looks to be well made.

How it's possible to not make the microcontroller-based controls work
reliably for years and years is beyond me. Makers of microwave ovens have
managed to do so for years. I've *never* seen a microwave oven with a dead
control panel.
I have, several times.


Dozens of them.



I've never seen a microwave quit for any reason. AND if it did, i'd get
out another $69 and buy a new one.

My microwave is 23 years old, and everything still works. Would a new
one last that long?
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us

"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent
force for atheism ever conceived." -- Isaac Asimov

Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Steve Barker wrote:

I've never seen a microwave quit for any reason. AND if it did, i'd get
out another $69 and buy a new one.



And another piece of Chinese crap, a year later? I see a pile of
dead microwaves every time I haul my recyclables to the landfill. I
have a brand new Westinghouse microwave, still in the carton, but I
prefer the 20 year old one, because it is higher power, and cooks
better.

i repaired some microwaves, 20+ years ago, because they were worth
repairing. They used stainless steel for the interior, so you didn't get
peeling paint, and rust inside. The only bad thing was they had no
turntable, ut you could buy an all plastic windup turntable for about
$4.

I have found turntables to be ineffective if there is no RF stirrer
overhead; the turntable simply moves food in and out of a stationary
beam instead of distributing the beam around the cavity.

It's too bad that newer ovens eschew the stirrer in favor of the
cheap turntable alternative.

Michael

msg wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Steve Barker wrote:

I've never seen a microwave quit for any reason. AND if it did, i'd get
out another $69 and buy a new one.



And another piece of Chinese crap, a year later? I see a pile of
dead microwaves every time I haul my recyclables to the landfill. I
have a brand new Westinghouse microwave, still in the carton, but I
prefer the 20 year old one, because it is higher power, and cooks
better.

i repaired some microwaves, 20+ years ago, because they were worth
repairing. They used stainless steel for the interior, so you didn't get
peeling paint, and rust inside. The only bad thing was they had no
turntable, ut you could buy an all plastic windup turntable for about
$4.

I have found turntables to be ineffective if there is no RF stirrer
overhead; the turntable simply moves food in and out of a stationary
beam instead of distributing the beam around the cavity.

It's too bad that newer ovens eschew the stirrer in favor of the
cheap turntable alternative.


What do you expect from China? Quality, good design, or a low
price? You can't have all three.


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense!

Mark Lloyd wrote:

On Wed, 03 Jun 2009 08:08:34 -0500, Steve Barker
wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Bob Larter wrote:
William R. Walsh wrote:
Hi!

The obvious solution to this problem is to buy laundry equipment with
conventional electro-mechanical controls. (Assuming they're still made.)
They most certainly are. It's still quite possible to buy (at least in the
US) a washer or dryer with conventional, non-microcontroller-based controls.
Even some of these fancy-dancy front loaders are made that way:
http://greyghost.mooo.com/doingthela.../newwasher.jpg (494x691,
20KB).

I've been inside it once, and the internals are what you'd expect of a
machine much older. The timer is a simple mechanical one, water level is
detected by vacuum, and while the drum motor has an electronic controller,
it looks to be well made.

How it's possible to not make the microcontroller-based controls work
reliably for years and years is beyond me. Makers of microwave ovens have
managed to do so for years. I've *never* seen a microwave oven with a dead
control panel.
I have, several times.


Dozens of them.



I've never seen a microwave quit for any reason. AND if it did, i'd get
out another $69 and buy a new one.

My microwave is 23 years old, and everything still works. Would a new
one last that long?


You would be lucky if it lasted 23 weeks.




--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense!

In article t,
msg wrote:

I have found turntables to be ineffective if there is no RF stirrer
overhead; the turntable simply moves food in and out of a stationary
beam instead of distributing the beam around the cavity.

It's too bad that newer ovens eschew the stirrer in favor of the
cheap turntable alternative.

Michael

Ah, interesting. How can I tell whether or not I have an RF stirrer?

How can I tell whether or not I have an RF stirrer?

Look at the top of the oven cavity. If you see a "fan" in the hole, that's
the stirrer.

Some ovens have the output on the bottom, but that's uncommon, as far as I
know.

Hi!

i repaired some microwaves, 20+ years ago, because they were
worth repairing. They used stainless steel for the interior, so you
didn't get peeling paint, and rust inside.

My mother bought the world's cheapest GE microwave and it lasted for a
few months past the warranty before dying in an interesting way. The
magnetron was the only thing that would start. Light, turntable and
fan remained dark. This is a good way to cook more than the food in
the oven.

I had a look and found a relay had desoldered itself from the board.
Put it back, oven springs back to life and things are good. For about
a month or two it worked. The relay was having none of that and
decided that if it would not get out of work by leaving the board, it
would turn to coal inside instead.

I was astounded that the GE oven had a service literature packet
inside it. Not a really good one, but enough to figure it out without
excessive exploration.

I got mad and drug a 60+ pound Litton oven out of storage only to find
that it worked *perfectly*. 30 years old and it works great. Used that
for a while until I found that getting a new compatible relay for the
GE was impossible. I turned the whole mess over to Best Buy, who took
the dead oven back and let me pick another.

I chose a Panasonic Inverter based oven as a replacement. (My mother
did not like the appearance of the Litton monster. Never mind that
*she* bought it.) Despite having heard the odd bad thing here on the
group, I know people who have had these for many years. And it is a
*great* oven.

William

The GE microwave that came with my condo has been running daily (though not
heavily) for at least 10 years, with no problems.

It makes no sense to buy something cheap, then complain when it fails. It's
not true that "you get what you pay for" (expensive items can be unreliable,
cheap items good values), but if people stopped buying cheap merchandise,
companies would likely stop manufacturing it.

Steve Barker wrote:
Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Bob Larter wrote:
William R. Walsh wrote:
Hi!

The obvious solution to this problem is to buy laundry equipment with
conventional electro-mechanical controls. (Assuming they're still
made.)
They most certainly are. It's still quite possible to buy (at least
in the
US) a washer or dryer with conventional, non-microcontroller-based
controls.
Even some of these fancy-dancy front loaders are made that way:
http://greyghost.mooo.com/doingthela.../newwasher.jpg
(494x691,
20KB).

I've been inside it once, and the internals are what you'd expect of a
machine much older. The timer is a simple mechanical one, water
level is
detected by vacuum, and while the drum motor has an electronic
controller,
it looks to be well made.

How it's possible to not make the microcontroller-based controls work
reliably for years and years is beyond me. Makers of microwave ovens
have
managed to do so for years. I've *never* seen a microwave oven with
a dead
control panel.
I have, several times.


Dozens of them.



I've never seen a microwave quit for any reason. AND if it did, i'd get
out another $69 and buy a new one.

Safety interlock switches & catches go bad all the time. My own high-end
National switch-mode uwave oven snapped a door catch while it was still
under warranty, but it was just before xmas, so I repaired it myself.
(Diassembled the door, glued the broken catch back together, cut up a
steel plate the same shape as the catch as a strengthener, & glued it to
the catch. It's been working perfectly ever since.)
The uwave at my office stops cooking every now & then. It fires back up
again if you push on the handle, so one of the uswitches is obviously a
little out of position. I haven't bothered fixing that one.

--
W
. | ,. w , "Some people are alive only because
\|/ \|/ it is illegal to kill them." Perna condita delenda est
---^----^---------------------------------------------------------------

William R. Walsh wrote:
Used that
for a while until I found that getting a new compatible relay for the
GE was impossible. I turned the whole mess over to Best Buy, who took
the dead oven back and let me pick another.

Just as well. But doesn't your jurisdiction require manufacturers to
support their products. Here in Australia if I found that a manufacturer
couldn't or wouldn't supply a replacement part for an appliance that
is only just out of warranty, I could, if I were so minded, sue them for
my loss.

Sylvia.

William Sommerwerck wrote:
The GE microwave that came with my condo has been running daily (though not
heavily) for at least 10 years, with no problems.

It makes no sense to buy something cheap, then complain when it fails. It's
not true that "you get what you pay for" (expensive items can be unreliable,
cheap items good values), but if people stopped buying cheap merchandise,
companies would likely stop manufacturing it.



Or just charge more for it so that it was no longer perceived as cheap.

Sylvia.

Sylvia Else wrote:
William R. Walsh wrote:
Used that
for a while until I found that getting a new compatible relay for the
GE was impossible. I turned the whole mess over to Best Buy, who took
the dead oven back and let me pick another.

Just as well. But doesn't your jurisdiction require manufacturers to
support their products. Here in Australia if I found that a manufacturer
couldn't or wouldn't supply a replacement part for an appliance that
is only just out of warranty, I could, if I were so minded, sue them for
my loss.

Sylvia.
Ah, but they would supply it, for a price, that is.
In the laptop world, some components cost more then a new laptop....

Sjouke Burry wrote:
Sylvia Else wrote:
William R. Walsh wrote:
Used that
for a while until I found that getting a new compatible relay for the
GE was impossible. I turned the whole mess over to Best Buy, who took
the dead oven back and let me pick another.

Just as well. But doesn't your jurisdiction require manufacturers to
support their products. Here in Australia if I found that a
manufacturer couldn't or wouldn't supply a replacement part for an
appliance that is only just out of warranty, I could, if I were so
minded, sue them for my loss.

Sylvia.
Ah, but they would supply it, for a price, that is.
In the laptop world, some components cost more then a new laptop....

Yes, and maybe the real problem was that the price asked for the
replacement part would make the repair uneconomic. But William said that
obtaining the part was impossible. I took that to mean that GE indicated
they were unable to supply one, not that they were asking too much for it.

Sylvia.