On Fri, 05 Jun 2009 04:22:41 +0200, Sjouke Burry wrote:
Sylvia Else wrote:
William R. Walsh wrote:
Used that
for a while until I found that getting a new compatible relay for the
GE was impossible. I turned the whole mess over to Best Buy, who took
the dead oven back and let me pick another.

Just as well. But doesn't your jurisdiction require manufacturers to
support their products. Here in Australia if I found that a manufacturer
couldn't or wouldn't supply a replacement part for an appliance that
is only just out of warranty, I could, if I were so minded, sue them for
my loss.

Sylvia.
Ah, but they would supply it, for a price, that is.
In the laptop world, some components cost more then a new laptop....

There's no part in a laptop that costs as much as replacing
the laptop (same model) unless perhaps you live in a place so
remote that it costs $2000 to have a screw delivered.

In article , Mark Lloyd wrote:
On Wed, 03 Jun 2009 08:08:34 -0500, Steve Barker
wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Bob Larter wrote:
William R. Walsh wrote:
Hi!

The obvious solution to this problem is to buy laundry equipment with
conventional electro-mechanical controls. (Assuming they're still made.)
They most certainly are. It's still quite possible to buy (at least in the
US) a washer or dryer with conventional, non-microcontroller-based
controls.
Even some of these fancy-dancy front loaders are made that way:
http://greyghost.mooo.com/doingthela.../newwasher.jpg (494x691,
20KB).

I've been inside it once, and the internals are what you'd expect of a
machine much older. The timer is a simple mechanical one, water level is
detected by vacuum, and while the drum motor has an electronic controller,
it looks to be well made.

How it's possible to not make the microcontroller-based controls work
reliably for years and years is beyond me. Makers of microwave ovens have
managed to do so for years. I've *never* seen a microwave oven with a dead
control panel.
I have, several times.


Dozens of them.



I've never seen a microwave quit for any reason. AND if it did, i'd get
out another $69 and buy a new one.

My microwave is 23 years old, and everything still works. Would a new
one last that long?

Around 1990 my brother had the family microwave and threw it away
for because it was larger and was in the way. It was the 20 year old
Heathkit microwave I assembled around 1970. Cost about $400, or
$2000 in todays money. I had to keep up with maintenance though, fixing a couple things.

Right now my most expensive unit is a Sears GE mocrowave/turbo oven
which run about $450, and I hope it holds up. Above the stove ventilator model.
I prefer using the powerfull Panasonic 1250 watt inverter to the 900 watt GE
most of the time. I also prefer to use my little turbo oven rather than the GE
because it also works much faster. Good things come in small packages some times.

greg

Sylvia Else wrote:
William R. Walsh wrote:
Used that
for a while until I found that getting a new compatible relay for the
GE was impossible. I turned the whole mess over to Best Buy, who took
the dead oven back and let me pick another.

Just as well. But doesn't your jurisdiction require manufacturers to
support their products. Here in Australia if I found that a manufacturer
couldn't or wouldn't supply a replacement part for an appliance that is
only just out of warranty, I could, if I were so minded, sue them for my
loss.

If the gizmo cost less than $500, you wouldn't even have to do that, you
could just take them to the Small Claims Tribunal, & you'd probably win.

--
W
. | ,. w , "Some people are alive only because
\|/ \|/ it is illegal to kill them." Perna condita delenda est
---^----^---------------------------------------------------------------

Sjouke Burry wrote:
Sylvia Else wrote:
William R. Walsh wrote:
Used that
for a while until I found that getting a new compatible relay for the
GE was impossible. I turned the whole mess over to Best Buy, who took
the dead oven back and let me pick another.

Just as well. But doesn't your jurisdiction require manufacturers to
support their products. Here in Australia if I found that a
manufacturer couldn't or wouldn't supply a replacement part for an
appliance that is only just out of warranty, I could, if I were so
minded, sue them for my loss.

Sylvia.
Ah, but they would supply it, for a price, that is.
In the laptop world, some components cost more then a new laptop....


Ayup. LCD panels & main boards being the two standard examples.

--
W
. | ,. w , "Some people are alive only because
\|/ \|/ it is illegal to kill them." Perna condita delenda est
---^----^---------------------------------------------------------------

AZ Nomad wrote:
On Fri, 05 Jun 2009 04:22:41 +0200, Sjouke Burry wrote:
Sylvia Else wrote:
William R. Walsh wrote:
Used that
for a while until I found that getting a new compatible relay for the
GE was impossible. I turned the whole mess over to Best Buy, who took
the dead oven back and let me pick another.
Just as well. But doesn't your jurisdiction require manufacturers to
support their products. Here in Australia if I found that a manufacturer
couldn't or wouldn't supply a replacement part for an appliance that
is only just out of warranty, I could, if I were so minded, sue them for
my loss.

Sylvia.
Ah, but they would supply it, for a price, that is.
In the laptop world, some components cost more then a new laptop....

There's no part in a laptop that costs as much as replacing
the laptop (same model) unless perhaps you live in a place so
remote that it costs $2000 to have a screw delivered.

ROTFL! Wanna bet?

--
W
. | ,. w , "Some people are alive only because
\|/ \|/ it is illegal to kill them." Perna condita delenda est
---^----^---------------------------------------------------------------

GregS wrote:
In article , Mark Lloyd wrote:
On Wed, 03 Jun 2009 08:08:34 -0500, Steve Barker
wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Bob Larter wrote:
William R. Walsh wrote:
Hi!

The obvious solution to this problem is to buy laundry equipment with
conventional electro-mechanical controls. (Assuming they're still made.)
They most certainly are. It's still quite possible to buy (at least in the
US) a washer or dryer with conventional, non-microcontroller-based
controls.
Even some of these fancy-dancy front loaders are made that way:
http://greyghost.mooo.com/doingthela.../newwasher.jpg (494x691,
20KB).

I've been inside it once, and the internals are what you'd expect of a
machine much older. The timer is a simple mechanical one, water level is
detected by vacuum, and while the drum motor has an electronic controller,
it looks to be well made.

How it's possible to not make the microcontroller-based controls work
reliably for years and years is beyond me. Makers of microwave ovens have
managed to do so for years. I've *never* seen a microwave oven with a dead
control panel.
I have, several times.

Dozens of them.


I've never seen a microwave quit for any reason. AND if it did, i'd get
out another $69 and buy a new one.
My microwave is 23 years old, and everything still works. Would a new
one last that long?

Around 1990 my brother had the family microwave and threw it away
for because it was larger and was in the way.

My ex threw away a huge, old, ultra-reliable uwave for pretty much the
same reason. I was /really/ ****ed off that she hadn't at least asked me
if I wanted it.


--
W
. | ,. w , "Some people are alive only because
\|/ \|/ it is illegal to kill them." Perna condita delenda est
---^----^---------------------------------------------------------------

On Sat, 06 Jun 2009 02:46:47 +1000, Bob Larter wrote:
AZ Nomad wrote:
On Fri, 05 Jun 2009 04:22:41 +0200, Sjouke Burry wrote:
Sylvia Else wrote:
William R. Walsh wrote:
Used that
for a while until I found that getting a new compatible relay for the
GE was impossible. I turned the whole mess over to Best Buy, who took
the dead oven back and let me pick another.
Just as well. But doesn't your jurisdiction require manufacturers to
support their products. Here in Australia if I found that a manufacturer
couldn't or wouldn't supply a replacement part for an appliance that
is only just out of warranty, I could, if I were so minded, sue them for
my loss.

Sylvia.
Ah, but they would supply it, for a price, that is.
In the laptop world, some components cost more then a new laptop....

There's no part in a laptop that costs as much as replacing
the laptop (same model) unless perhaps you live in a place so
remote that it costs $2000 to have a screw delivered.

ROTFL! Wanna bet?

Then you should have no trouble naming some parts that cost as much as replacing
the laptop.

About 15 years ago I bought a discontinued made-in-the-U-S-of-A Litton
microwave. I put it aside when I moved to a condo (as the new kitchen had a
GE "vent hood" microwave that's given perfect service. But the Litton was
solidly made, and on those rare occsions when I've had to schlep a microwave
to a party or dinner, it's worked fine.

In fairness, the Litton and other American microwaves were probably
"overbuilt" -- the quality level was much higher than it had to be, even for
a product intended to last 20 years or more. The quality of the non-American
GE appears to be "about right".

Hi!

Yes, and maybe the real problem was that the price asked
for the replacement part would make the repair uneconomic.

When I called GE Appliances, the people I spoke to were professional
and courteous. They really tried to help. I cannot fault them. A
control panel was the smallest part of the assembly available. Daewoo
built the oven for them, so this doesn't come as a terrible surprise.

I never did think to ask about a slight extension of the warranty, a
pro-rated repair or even something where GE might pay for the part and
I'd pay for the repair (which means "do it myself").

Having struck out with GE, I tried to see if I could find a source for
the G5G-1A relay. I didn't even get that done, so finally I turned to
OMRON themselves. Proving that I'm something of an eternal optimist, I
felt they would send/sell me *one* piece as a gesture of goodwill
toward a potential customer.

That they would not do. To top it off, by the time I got the person
who could make that decision, they were exceptionally rude and
absolutely unwilling to do anything.

But you know what? That's fine. Next time someone comes up to me and
says "oh golly, I'm designing this thing that will be mass produced
and uses a relay" I will think for a bit, smile and say "whatever you
do, don't buy the parts from OMRON". Two can play that game! :-)

In the end, I made my case to my mother, dealt with Best Buy (who were
excellent about the whole thing!) and purchased the oven I felt she
should have bought to start with. I would have considered a
workaround, but I was tired of the whole thing and never liked that
oven anyway.

William

With respect to good customer service...

Last year I bought a really nice GE (ie, Thomson) DECT 6.0 telephone system.
(It works very well, and is easy to use, quite unlike a Uniden unit I'd
bought and returned. It's unusual to see a product where someone has
actually paid attention to the shape, size, layout, and grouping of the
controls.)

One of the cordless handset batteries was defective. GE would not simply
replace the battery -- I was supposed to return the entire unit! When I
asked to simply purchase the battery, I learned it cost around $20 (that's
for two AAA NiMH cells), and wasn't in stock anyway!

Circuit City treated me well, swapping out the bad battery. Of course,
Circuit City was then obliged to return a complete "defective" unit, which
is not the way things are supposed to work!

On Sat, 06 Jun 2009 02:46:16 +1000, Bob Larter
wrote:

Ayup. LCD panels & main boards being the two standard examples.

I beg to differ. If you buy replacement panels from the manufacturer,
then one can easily pay as much as the laptop (for low end models
only). However, if you purchase them from numerous vendors on the web
or on eBay, the prices are typically $60-$200 depending on size,
new/used, and oddity. I've repaired many broken LCD displays this way
with few difficulties beyond ordering the wrong panel and misplacing
the screws. Same with the even cheaper LCD inverters, which are a
more common problem. Depending on difficulty, I usually add 1-2 hours
labour at $75/hr onto the bill with the panel and parts at cost.
Unless the laptop is junk, it's still economical to repair laptops.
(Note: I can't say the same for fixing failed BGA chips on laptop
motherboards).

I think what you're referring to is the relative cost of building a
computer from replacement components versus buying a package. For
entertainment, I sometimes add up the prices of *ALL* the replacement
boards, case parts, modules, and pieces that comprise a machine. I
haven't done this for perhaps 8 years, but last time I checked, I
could build an Apple G3 laptop for only 10 times the cost of a new G3
laptop. PC's aren't much better, where I vaguely recall an HP
something laptop parts collection also costing 10 times the
replacement parts cost (not including assembly and repair labour).

Long ago, I worked for a radio manufactory. We sold a $0.50
transistor for about $5.00. Most of the added cost was picking,
boxing, shipping, insurance, handling, billing, etc. I once
calculated that the cost of shipping an empty box (no contents) was
about $75. It's probably higher today. I convinced sales to only
sell small transistors in lots of 25 pieces. The delivered price was
the same as a single piece price, $5.00. Later, we were selling 100
piece parts kits to the dealers for not much more. In other words,
the parts were worthless, but the overhead is where the money was
hidden. A new LCD panel from Dell, might be worth only $150, but cost
perhaps $400 because of handing, stocking, flooring, inventory,
packaging, executive compensation package, etc.


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Fri, 5 Jun 2009 10:38:51 -0700, William Sommerwerck wrote:
With respect to good customer service...

Last year I bought a really nice GE (ie, Thomson) DECT 6.0 telephone system.
(It works very well, and is easy to use, quite unlike a Uniden unit I'd
bought and returned. It's unusual to see a product where someone has
actually paid attention to the shape, size, layout, and grouping of the
controls.)

One of the cordless handset batteries was defective. GE would not simply
replace the battery -- I was supposed to return the entire unit! When I
asked to simply purchase the battery, I learned it cost around $20 (that's
for two AAA NiMH cells), and wasn't in stock anyway!

Circuit City treated me well, swapping out the bad battery. Of course,
Circuit City was then obliged to return a complete "defective" unit, which
is not the way things are supposed to work!


no wonder they're out of business.

On Fri, 05 Jun 2009 11:48:02 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
I think what you're referring to is the relative cost of building a
computer from replacement components versus buying a package. For
entertainment, I sometimes add up the prices of *ALL* the replacement

If you aren't restricting yourself to buying manufacteror replacement
parts, the cost of repairing a computer isn't prohibitive at all.

HP might want $500 for a motherboard replacement, but that doesn't mean that
the microatx MB can't be replaced with a non-HP board, probably of far
high quality, for $50.

If you tally up the parts that make up a computer, the total cost is about what
PC sellers charge. Only difference is that their bulk buying savings means
that they can basically toss in the OS for free. Of course, it isn't easy
finding those crappy $8 power supplies that make their way into most PCs. I
always seem to use power supplies that cost about $40 and unlike the crappy $8
ones, they won't have their fan fail in a few years, or run a 5% chance of
blowing up and taking out everything they power.

Circuit City treated me well, swapping out the bad battery.
Of course, Circuit City was then obliged to return a complete
"defective" unit, which is not the way things are supposed to work!

No wonder they're out of business.

Circuit City is out of business for more-significant reasons than having to
pick up after a manufacturer's mess.

On Fri, 5 Jun 2009 12:53:25 -0700, William Sommerwerck wrote:
Circuit City treated me well, swapping out the bad battery.
Of course, Circuit City was then obliged to return a complete
"defective" unit, which is not the way things are supposed to work!

No wonder they're out of business.

Circuit City is out of business for more-significant reasons than having to
pick up after a manufacturer's mess.

They're out of business because their staff was incompetant at every level
of the organization. That a low level stock jock thought it reasonable
to return a phone as defective in order to swap out a battery was
just an indication. The clerk was incompetant. The manager who trained
him was incompetant. The regional management and HR who put that manager in
his position were incompetant. etc.

Circuit City treated me well, swapping out the bad battery.
Of course, Circuit City was then obliged to return a complete
"defective" unit, which is not the way things are supposed to
work!

No wonder they're out of business.

Circuit City is out of business for more-significant reasons than having
to pick up after a manufacturer's mess.

They're out of business because their staff was incompetant at every
level of the organization. That a low level stock jock thought it
reasonable
to return a phone as defective in order to swap out a battery was just
an indication. The clerk was incompetant. The manager who trained
him was incompetant. The regional management and HR who put that
manager in his position were incompetant. etc.

Although Circuit City had really lousy salespeople (because it fired
everyone and replaced them with lower-paid people), in this particular case
it was MANAGER who swapped out the battery. The unit had been purchased just
a few days previously, and I had the right to return it for any reason,
anyhow. He was trying to help a customer, and I was grateful. He "did the
right thing".

"William R. Walsh" wrote:

Having struck out with GE, I tried to see if I could find a source for
the G5G-1A relay. I didn't even get that done, so finally I turned to
OMRON themselves. Proving that I'm something of an eternal optimist, I
felt they would send/sell me *one* piece as a gesture of goodwill
toward a potential customer.


http://parts.digikey.com/1/parts/1414537-relay-pwr-spst-no-16a-24vdc-g5g-1a-psdc24.html


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense!

William R. Walsh wrote:
Hi!

Yes, and maybe the real problem was that the price asked
for the replacement part would make the repair uneconomic.

When I called GE Appliances, the people I spoke to were professional
and courteous. They really tried to help. I cannot fault them. A
control panel was the smallest part of the assembly available. Daewoo
built the oven for them, so this doesn't come as a terrible surprise.

Ah, yes, now that's a slightly different problem. Were I to find myself
in that situation, and seek to take GE to court over their failure to
support their product, they'd presumably point to the spare control
panel, and claim that they were supporting it.

Sylvia.

Bob Larter wrote:
Sylvia Else wrote:
William R. Walsh wrote:
Used that
for a while until I found that getting a new compatible relay for the
GE was impossible. I turned the whole mess over to Best Buy, who took
the dead oven back and let me pick another.

Just as well. But doesn't your jurisdiction require manufacturers to
support their products. Here in Australia if I found that a
manufacturer couldn't or wouldn't supply a replacement part for an
appliance that is only just out of warranty, I could, if I were so
minded, sue them for my loss.

If the gizmo cost less than $500, you wouldn't even have to do that, you
could just take them to the Small Claims Tribunal, & you'd probably win.


Well, that would still be suing them.

There is a separate issue, of course, which is whether an appliance
should fail when it's just out of the manufacturer's warranty, given
that such warranties tend to be absurdly short anyway. The mere fact
that a piece of gear is out of warranty doesn't mean that the
manufacturer is off the hook. Depends on the jurisdiction, though.

Sylvia.

There is a separate issue, of course, which is whether an appliance
should fail when it's just out of the manufacturer's warranty, given
that such warranties tend to be absurdly short anyway. The mere
fact that a piece of gear is out of warranty doesn't mean that the
manufacturer is off the hook. Depends on the jurisdiction, though.

The US has laws (derived from British common law) that protect customers,
and also specify the minimum time parts have to be available. These laws
have been weakened over the past 20 years, and are generally not
well-enforced, anyway.

When a complex Silverlit toy needed repair parts, and the importer couldn't
supply them, I pointed out their legal obligations, and Silverlit USA was
quick to swap out my unit for a new one. (I had threatened to complain to
the FTC.)

Foreign companies apparently aren't aware of their obligations. If you can't
stock spare parts (or at least sub-assemblies), you shouldn't be doing
business in another country.

William Sommerwerck wrote:

snip

When a complex Silverlit toy needed repair parts...

snip

Which one? X-UFO?

Michael

When a complex Silverlit toy needed repair parts...

Which one? X-UFO?

Yup.

The lady who handles customer relations -- she seems to be the only person
in Silverlit USA! -- was so nice I was embarrassed "putting the screws to
her". But the unit had stopped working, and they couldn't provide any of the
parts likely to fix it. I couldn't very well toss the thing in the trash.

Hi!

Ah, yes, now that's a slightly different problem. Were I to find
myself in that situation, and seek to take GE to court over their
failure to support their product, they'd presumably point to the spare
control panel, and claim that they were supporting it.

The control panel could have been purchased and the cost was not all
together unreasonable at the time. (It has since gone up.)

However, I was not about to discard an otherwise *working* panel for
want of a relay.

Taking them to court over something like this would surely involve
more of an expenditure than replacing the oven. As it is, I complained
to Best Buy and they did not give me any static about returning the
oven to them, selecting another and paying the difference.

I don't know what happened to that GE oven. Maybe it was scrapped.
They told me everything goes back to the manufactuer. It went back
with a little "extra"--a note taped to the inside top of the cabinet
with the burned relay firmly affixed.

Did they read it? Do they care? I have no idea. It made me feel better
to have left it there, if for no other reason than its discovery would
tell them that someone, somewhere really wanted to fix it instead of
just buying another.

William

I don't know what happened to that GE oven. Maybe it was scrapped.
They told me everything goes back to the manufactuer. It went back
with a little "extra" -- a note taped to the inside top of the cabinet
with the burned relay firmly affixed.

Did they read it? Do they care? I have no idea. It made me feel better
to have left it there, if for no other reason than its discovery would
tell them that someone, somewhere really wanted to fix it instead of
just buying another.

What's pathetic about this is that the dealer has to provide a service --
out of simple courtesy to the customer -- that the manufacturer should
supply.

Given how cheap such products are, and how little profit the retailers make,
manufacturers should be willing to absorb the costs of providing cheap
out-of-warranty repairs.

On Sat, 06 Jun 2009 19:55:23 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:
(...)

If you're in Europe, you get a free 2 year unlimited extended warranty
on everything:
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/bargains-and-rip-offs/article.html?in_article_id=487304


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Sylvia Else wrote:
William R. Walsh wrote:
Hi!

Yes, and maybe the real problem was that the price asked
for the replacement part would make the repair uneconomic.

When I called GE Appliances, the people I spoke to were professional
and courteous. They really tried to help. I cannot fault them. A
control panel was the smallest part of the assembly available. Daewoo
built the oven for them, so this doesn't come as a terrible surprise.

Ah, yes, now that's a slightly different problem. Were I to find myself
in that situation, and seek to take GE to court over their failure to
support their product, they'd presumably point to the spare control
panel, and claim that they were supporting it.

Ayup. That's pretty much how it works. Back when I worked for Canon,
that sort of situation used to crop up regularly.

--
W
. | ,. w , "Some people are alive only because
\|/ \|/ it is illegal to kill them." Perna condita delenda est
---^----^---------------------------------------------------------------

AZ Nomad wrote:
On Sat, 06 Jun 2009 02:46:47 +1000, Bob Larter wrote:
AZ Nomad wrote:
On Fri, 05 Jun 2009 04:22:41 +0200, Sjouke Burry wrote:
Sylvia Else wrote:
William R. Walsh wrote:
Used that
for a while until I found that getting a new compatible relay for the
GE was impossible. I turned the whole mess over to Best Buy, who took
the dead oven back and let me pick another.
Just as well. But doesn't your jurisdiction require manufacturers to
support their products. Here in Australia if I found that a manufacturer
couldn't or wouldn't supply a replacement part for an appliance that
is only just out of warranty, I could, if I were so minded, sue them for
my loss.

Sylvia.
Ah, but they would supply it, for a price, that is.
In the laptop world, some components cost more then a new laptop....
There's no part in a laptop that costs as much as replacing
the laptop (same model) unless perhaps you live in a place so
remote that it costs $2000 to have a screw delivered.

ROTFL! Wanna bet?

Then you should have no trouble naming some parts that cost as much as replacing
the laptop.

Sure. The LCD panel or the motherboard for a 3 year old laptop typically
cost as much to buy as spare parts as brand new laptop would.

--
W
. | ,. w , "Some people are alive only because
\|/ \|/ it is illegal to kill them." Perna condita delenda est
---^----^---------------------------------------------------------------

Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sat, 06 Jun 2009 02:46:16 +1000, Bob Larter
wrote:

Ayup. LCD panels & main boards being the two standard examples.

I beg to differ. If you buy replacement panels from the manufacturer,
then one can easily pay as much as the laptop (for low end models
only).

Yes, those are the spares I'm talking about.
Refurbed main boards or third party LCD panels can be a lot cheaper. Of
course you run the risk of getting a dud PCB or an incompatible LCD.

However, if you purchase them from numerous vendors on the web
or on eBay, the prices are typically $60-$200 depending on size,
new/used, and oddity. I've repaired many broken LCD displays this way
with few difficulties beyond ordering the wrong panel and misplacing
the screws. Same with the even cheaper LCD inverters, which are a
more common problem. Depending on difficulty, I usually add 1-2 hours
labour at $75/hr onto the bill with the panel and parts at cost.
Unless the laptop is junk, it's still economical to repair laptops.
(Note: I can't say the same for fixing failed BGA chips on laptop
motherboards).

I think what you're referring to is the relative cost of building a
computer from replacement components versus buying a package. For
entertainment, I sometimes add up the prices of *ALL* the replacement
boards, case parts, modules, and pieces that comprise a machine. I
haven't done this for perhaps 8 years, but last time I checked, I
could build an Apple G3 laptop for only 10 times the cost of a new G3
laptop. PC's aren't much better, where I vaguely recall an HP
something laptop parts collection also costing 10 times the
replacement parts cost (not including assembly and repair labour).

Long ago, I worked for a radio manufactory. We sold a $0.50
transistor for about $5.00. Most of the added cost was picking,
boxing, shipping, insurance, handling, billing, etc. I once
calculated that the cost of shipping an empty box (no contents) was
about $75. It's probably higher today. I convinced sales to only
sell small transistors in lots of 25 pieces. The delivered price was
the same as a single piece price, $5.00. Later, we were selling 100
piece parts kits to the dealers for not much more. In other words,
the parts were worthless, but the overhead is where the money was
hidden. A new LCD panel from Dell, might be worth only $150, but cost
perhaps $400 because of handing, stocking, flooring, inventory,
packaging, executive compensation package, etc.

Ayup.

--
W
. | ,. w , "Some people are alive only because
\|/ \|/ it is illegal to kill them." Perna condita delenda est
---^----^---------------------------------------------------------------

Sylvia Else wrote:
Bob Larter wrote:
Sylvia Else wrote:
William R. Walsh wrote:
Used that
for a while until I found that getting a new compatible relay for the
GE was impossible. I turned the whole mess over to Best Buy, who took
the dead oven back and let me pick another.

Just as well. But doesn't your jurisdiction require manufacturers to
support their products. Here in Australia if I found that a
manufacturer couldn't or wouldn't supply a replacement part for an
appliance that is only just out of warranty, I could, if I were so
minded, sue them for my loss.

If the gizmo cost less than $500, you wouldn't even have to do that,
you could just take them to the Small Claims Tribunal, & you'd
probably win.


Well, that would still be suing them.

Theoretically, yes, but in practice it's totally unlike dragging someone
into a court for a civil case. No lawyers, just the consumer & a rep for
the seller. And there's no appeal.

There is a separate issue, of course, which is whether an appliance
should fail when it's just out of the manufacturer's warranty, given
that such warranties tend to be absurdly short anyway. The mere fact
that a piece of gear is out of warranty doesn't mean that the
manufacturer is off the hook. Depends on the jurisdiction, though.

Speaking as someone who spent years doing warranty service work, most
manufacturers will come to the party if something fails just outside the
warranty, if the purchaser sticks to their guns.

--
W
. | ,. w , "Some people are alive only because
\|/ \|/ it is illegal to kill them." Perna condita delenda est
---^----^---------------------------------------------------------------

William Sommerwerck wrote:
There is a separate issue, of course, which is whether an appliance
should fail when it's just out of the manufacturer's warranty, given
that such warranties tend to be absurdly short anyway. The mere
fact that a piece of gear is out of warranty doesn't mean that the
manufacturer is off the hook. Depends on the jurisdiction, though.

The US has laws (derived from British common law) that protect customers,
and also specify the minimum time parts have to be available. These laws
have been weakened over the past 20 years, and are generally not
well-enforced, anyway.

No, they're not And as somebody pointed out upthread, they often get
around it by only stocking sub-assemblies at huge prices.

When a complex Silverlit toy needed repair parts, and the importer couldn't
supply them, I pointed out their legal obligations, and Silverlit USA was
quick to swap out my unit for a new one. (I had threatened to complain to
the FTC.)

Foreign companies apparently aren't aware of their obligations. If you can't
stock spare parts (or at least sub-assemblies), you shouldn't be doing
business in another country.

I don't know what the rules about that are in the USA, but here, the
responsibility falls to the local reseller.

--
W
. | ,. w , "Some people are alive only because
\|/ \|/ it is illegal to kill them." Perna condita delenda est
---^----^---------------------------------------------------------------

William Sommerwerck wrote:
About 15 years ago I bought a discontinued made-in-the-U-S-of-A Litton
microwave. I put it aside when I moved to a condo (as the new kitchen had a
GE "vent hood" microwave that's given perfect service. But the Litton was
solidly made, and on those rare occsions when I've had to schlep a microwave
to a party or dinner, it's worked fine.

In fairness, the Litton and other American microwaves were probably
"overbuilt" -- the quality level was much higher than it had to be, even for
a product intended to last 20 years or more. The quality of the non-American
GE appears to be "about right".

Canon used to build their laser printer engines (HP, Brother, Apple)
that well. Not any more.

--
W
. | ,. w , "Some people are alive only because
\|/ \|/ it is illegal to kill them." Perna condita delenda est
---^----^---------------------------------------------------------------

"Bob Larter" wrote in message
...
AZ Nomad wrote:
On Sat, 06 Jun 2009 02:46:47 +1000, Bob Larter
wrote:
AZ Nomad wrote:
On Fri, 05 Jun 2009 04:22:41 +0200, Sjouke Burry
wrote:
Sylvia Else wrote:
William R. Walsh wrote:
Used that
for a while until I found that getting a new compatible relay for
the
GE was impossible. I turned the whole mess over to Best Buy, who
took
the dead oven back and let me pick another.
Just as well. But doesn't your jurisdiction require manufacturers to
support their products. Here in Australia if I found that a
manufacturer couldn't or wouldn't supply a replacement part for an
appliance that is only just out of warranty, I could, if I were so
minded, sue them for my loss.

Sylvia.
Ah, but they would supply it, for a price, that is.
In the laptop world, some components cost more then a new laptop....
There's no part in a laptop that costs as much as replacing
the laptop (same model) unless perhaps you live in a place so remote
that it costs $2000 to have a screw delivered.

ROTFL! Wanna bet?

Then you should have no trouble naming some parts that cost as much as
replacing
the laptop.

Sure. The LCD panel or the motherboard for a 3 year old laptop typically
cost as much to buy as spare parts as brand new laptop would.

--
W
. | ,. w , "Some people are alive only because
\|/ \|/ it is illegal to kill them." Perna condita delenda est
---^----^---------------------------------------------------------------


Actually, I have changed a couple of panels in laptops and they were under
$100. Parts have started to become more available and as more reasonable
prices through the efforts of third parties. The parts may be far more
expensive from the manufacturer of the laptop, but things are far better
than they were a couple of years ago in this regard.

Leonard

On Sun, 07 Jun 2009 17:53:17 +1000, Bob Larter wrote:
Sure. The LCD panel or the motherboard for a 3 year old laptop typically
cost as much to buy as spare parts as brand new laptop would.

bull****. The LCD panel typicaly costs 1/3 the price of a new laptop, from the
manufacturer, or about 1/10th to 1/8th the price if bought on the used market.

Nobody pays two ****ing thousand dollars for an LCD panel.
Ditto for the motherboard.

"AZ Nomad" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 07 Jun 2009 17:53:17 +1000, Bob Larter
wrote:
Sure. The LCD panel or the motherboard for a 3 year old laptop typically
cost as much to buy as spare parts as brand new laptop would.

bull****. The LCD panel typicaly costs 1/3 the price of a new laptop,
from the
manufacturer, or about 1/10th to 1/8th the price if bought on the used
market.

Nobody pays two ****ing thousand dollars for an LCD panel.
Ditto for the motherboard.



Nobody gives much credence to opinions from people who can't make their
point without resorting to profanity, either.

Leonard

On Sun, 7 Jun 2009 22:11:53 -0400, Leonard Caillouet wrote:
"AZ Nomad" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 07 Jun 2009 17:53:17 +1000, Bob Larter
wrote:
Sure. The LCD panel or the motherboard for a 3 year old laptop typically
cost as much to buy as spare parts as brand new laptop would.

bull****. The LCD panel typicaly costs 1/3 the price of a new laptop,
from the
manufacturer, or about 1/10th to 1/8th the price if bought on the used
market.

Nobody pays two ****ing thousand dollars for an LCD panel.
Ditto for the motherboard.



Nobody gives much credence to opinions from people who can't make their
point without resorting to profanity, either.

Cry me a ****ing river.

Leonard Caillouet wrote:
"Bob Larter" wrote in message
...
AZ Nomad wrote:
On Sat, 06 Jun 2009 02:46:47 +1000, Bob Larter
wrote:
AZ Nomad wrote:
On Fri, 05 Jun 2009 04:22:41 +0200, Sjouke Burry
wrote:
Sylvia Else wrote:
William R. Walsh wrote:
Used that
for a while until I found that getting a new compatible relay
for the
GE was impossible. I turned the whole mess over to Best Buy, who
took
the dead oven back and let me pick another.
Just as well. But doesn't your jurisdiction require manufacturers
to support their products. Here in Australia if I found that a
manufacturer couldn't or wouldn't supply a replacement part for
an appliance that is only just out of warranty, I could, if I
were so minded, sue them for my loss.

Sylvia.
Ah, but they would supply it, for a price, that is.
In the laptop world, some components cost more then a new laptop....
There's no part in a laptop that costs as much as replacing
the laptop (same model) unless perhaps you live in a place so
remote that it costs $2000 to have a screw delivered.

ROTFL! Wanna bet?

Then you should have no trouble naming some parts that cost as much
as replacing
the laptop.

Sure. The LCD panel or the motherboard for a 3 year old laptop
typically cost as much to buy as spare parts as brand new laptop would.

Actually, I have changed a couple of panels in laptops and they were
under $100. Parts have started to become more available and as more
reasonable prices through the efforts of third parties. The parts may
be far more expensive from the manufacturer of the laptop, but things
are far better than they were a couple of years ago in this regard.

It's quite possible that you're more up to date than I am, as it's been
10 years or so since I last was fixing laptops for a living. It was
certainly true back then, though.

--
W
. | ,. w , "Some people are alive only because
\|/ \|/ it is illegal to kill them." Perna condita delenda est
---^----^---------------------------------------------------------------

Hi!

24vdc-

It was a twelve volt coil variant, seemingly made of unobtainium.
Believe me, I tried every option and even checked in here for
help. :-)

It got to the point where I didn't think it was worth tinkering with
it any longer.

William

AZ Nomad wrote:
On Sun, 7 Jun 2009 22:11:53 -0400, Leonard Caillouet wrote:
"AZ Nomad" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 07 Jun 2009 17:53:17 +1000, Bob Larter
wrote:
Sure. The LCD panel or the motherboard for a 3 year old laptop typically
cost as much to buy as spare parts as brand new laptop would.
bull****. The LCD panel typicaly costs 1/3 the price of a new laptop,
from the
manufacturer, or about 1/10th to 1/8th the price if bought on the used
market.

Nobody pays two ****ing thousand dollars for an LCD panel.
Ditto for the motherboard.



Nobody gives much credence to opinions from people who can't make their
point without resorting to profanity, either.

Cry me a ****ing river.


He's right though. If you want your opinion to be respected, express it
without the redundant starting words.

Sylvia.

Bob Larter wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Nate Nagel wrote:
Having had to have the DME (Porsche-speak for ECM) on my 944 completely
resoldered a few years ago to allow the car to run reliably, I am amused
by your post... I guess Bosch is not the end-all be-all of reliable
electronics manufacturing.


Are you sure they aren't using Lucas?

Lord of Darkness?


Yes, except for his failed venture into a chain of all night greasy
spoon diners where he was know as the 'Lard of Darkness'. ;-)


--
Greed is the root of all eBay.