I see these newer dryers and front-load washers have what I assume to
be some kind of IC control circuitry and from what I've seen my
suspicions about this being a likely point of failure appear to be
correct. LG warranties the motor for 10 years but the circuit board
only for 2. I'm betting it's expensive to replace too.

For as many years as this technology has been around, why can't the
control circuitry be made more bulletproof?

On May 30, 10:51�pm, brassplyer wrote:
I see these newer dryers and front-load washers have what I assume to
be some kind of IC control circuitry and from what I've seen my
suspicions about this being a likely point of failure appear to be
correct. LG warranties the motor for 10 years but the circuit board
only for 2. I'm betting it's expensive to replace too.

For as many years as this technology has been around, why can't the
control circuitry be made more bulletproof?

cost, manufacturers use OEM ONLY boards, so when they decide a model
is obsolete there are no other parts sources.

brassplyer wrote:
I see these newer dryers and front-load washers have what I assume to
be some kind of IC control circuitry and from what I've seen my
suspicions about this being a likely point of failure appear to be
correct. LG warranties the motor for 10 years but the circuit board
only for 2. I'm betting it's expensive to replace too.

For as many years as this technology has been around, why can't the
control circuitry be made more bulletproof?

It would probably cost them $10.00 more per washer/dryer.
The company bean counters look at it as a cost of the
whole company output. If the manufacturer builds a million
units, it would be another ten million in production costs.

I repaired a problem with an electric clothes dryer equipped
with digital controls last week. The dryer was acting weird
and would not behave itself. It turned out to be a loose
connection at the circuit breaker. The arcing of the bad
connection was putting electrical noise on the power circuit
and the electronics and digital displays were going nuts.

TDD

brassplyer wrote:
I see these newer dryers and front-load washers have what I assume to
be some kind of IC control circuitry and from what I've seen my
suspicions about this being a likely point of failure appear to be
correct. LG warranties the motor for 10 years but the circuit board
only for 2. I'm betting it's expensive to replace too.

For as many years as this technology has been around, why can't the
control circuitry be made more bulletproof?

There are companies who will repair washing machine modules at very
resonable prices. here in the UK one such company is QER in Workington.
http://www.qer.biz/servReps.htm

Ron(UK)

On May 30, 9:51*pm, brassplyer wrote:
I see these newer dryers and front-load washers have what I assume to
be some kind of IC control circuitry and from what I've seen my
suspicions about this being a likely point of failure appear to be
correct. LG warranties the motor for 10 years but the circuit board
only for 2. I'm betting it's expensive to replace too.

For as many years as this technology has been around, why can't the
control circuitry be made more bulletproof?

For long life look at Commercial units, they cost double but our last
set lasted 35 years , until they fell apart from rust. Nothing is made
like it used to be, but look at the prices from 10-20 yrs ago, prices
are nearly the same so corners are cut.

The obvious solution to this problem is to buy laundry equipment with
conventional electro-mechanical controls. (Assuming they're still made.) My
GE washer and dryer are over 10 years old, and I expect them to last at
least another 15.

On May 31, 10:55*am, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote:
The obvious solution to this problem is to buy laundry equipment with
conventional electro-mechanical controls. (Assuming they're still made.) My
GE washer and dryer are over 10 years old, and I expect them to last at
least another 15.

That's why we are sticking with older style (still available) electro-
mechanical control appliances. Also keep around useful bits and pieces
of items that may go wrong!
Presently for example, we are using a well used dryer that cost, some
years ago, one dozen beer (then about $16 Canadian). Guy advertised
it; called him up asked him what kinda beer he liked and was there
within the hour on other side of this small city in my pickup. He and
I got it up some rather steep basement stairs (I'm in my mid 70s!) and
asking him why he was getting rid of an ostensibly good dryer he said
"The wife wanted a new dryer/washer pair"!
Got it home, downstairs by myself and plugged it in; although my
neighbour always ready to help. It's worked fine ever since, although
I did change the plastic hose to a metalized one; apparently insurance
companies have reported older plastic ones can sometimes cause fires!
The only repair need at time was to remake the electrical connection
of the cord on the back before pushing it into position. It had not,
originally been done very well and the outer shell of the rubber cord
had sprung out of the anchor/connector at the dryer.
Our 20 to 25 year old top load washer washer was rebuilt some 5+ years
ago using the tub out of a relative's washer that had transmission
problems (something to do with a bad batch of steel back then?). It
also needs a look at one contact on the timer, it occasionally does
not complete the last two-three minutes of its spin cycle. Got a spare
timer from an identical washer on hand anyway.
Finally replaced the venerable (30 years?) dish washer. It worked OK
but was really noisy and getting quite grungy, with a free one, which
needed only one minor repair (open solenoid coil on water inlet valve)
not as quiet as the most modern ones but it washes better than the one
it replaced.
We are on our third/fourth used stove; but the main point is that none
of these appliances have electronic controls and my level of
technology and spare parts allows for repairing them at low/zero cost.
New electronic control 'boards' etc.are reputed to cost in excess of
$70? One can currently get a complete used appliance for less than
that!
If the electronic control board goes faulty in a microwave appliance
it is usually necessary to scrap the whole thing.
Know what you are doing though. DC voltages of 5000 and microwave
radiation that can 'cook' human flesh and eyes are present.

"William Sommerwerck" wrote in message
...
The obvious solution to this problem is to buy laundry equipment with
conventional electro-mechanical controls. (Assuming they're still made.)
My
GE washer and dryer are over 10 years old, and I expect them to last at
least another 15.



I recently saw on Craig's List one Whirlpool/Kenmore direct-drive top load
washer for free that said it needed a new clutch. I saw another one for
free that said it needed a new motor. Either of these are easy repairs on a
direct-drive. If I had room to store them I would have gotten them for my
daughters (if they ever move out).

Ulysses wrote:

"William Sommerwerck" wrote in message
...
The obvious solution to this problem is to buy laundry equipment with
conventional electro-mechanical controls. (Assuming they're still made.)
My
GE washer and dryer are over 10 years old, and I expect them to last at
least another 15.



I recently saw on Craig's List one Whirlpool/Kenmore direct-drive top load
washer for free that said it needed a new clutch. I saw another one for
free that said it needed a new motor. Either of these are easy repairs on a
direct-drive. If I had room to store them I would have gotten them for my
daughters (if they ever move out).


If you collect enough of them, your daughters will HAVE to move out!
;-)


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense!

Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Ulysses wrote:
"William Sommerwerck" wrote in message
...
The obvious solution to this problem is to buy laundry equipment with
conventional electro-mechanical controls. (Assuming they're still made.)
My
GE washer and dryer are over 10 years old, and I expect them to last at
least another 15.


I recently saw on Craig's List one Whirlpool/Kenmore direct-drive top load
washer for free that said it needed a new clutch. I saw another one for
free that said it needed a new motor. Either of these are easy repairs on a
direct-drive. If I had room to store them I would have gotten them for my
daughters (if they ever move out).


If you collect enough of them, your daughters will HAVE to move out!
;-)

Hell, you can swap daughters for appliances. ;^)

--
W
. | ,. w , "Some people are alive only because
\|/ \|/ it is illegal to kill them." Perna condita delenda est
---^----^---------------------------------------------------------------

On May 31, 5:55*am, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote:
The obvious solution to this problem is to buy laundry equipment with
conventional electro-mechanical controls. (Assuming they're still made.) My
GE washer and dryer are over 10 years old, and I expect them to last at
least another 15.

That's a good plan, but hard to implement.
When my washer last died, the problem was a riveted switch/relay
assembly that's no longer made; I was able to patch in a
relay in parallel with the defunct component, because the
schematic was printed on the box.

It wouldn't have been easy to trace the fault without the
schematic, and it would have taken a lot of remachining to
fix 'just like new'. The fault was with conventional controls that
were
mass-produced in complex assemblies.
My replacement relay was a tiny gold-plated aircraft/military
part, with four times the capacity of the original.

So, for repairability, you need
(1) conventional controls
(2) conventional (no surprises inside) components, preferably labeled
(3) documented functional blocks, so you can determine what function
failed.

Hi!

The obvious solution to this problem is to buy laundry equipment with
conventional electro-mechanical controls. (Assuming they're still made.)

They most certainly are. It's still quite possible to buy (at least in the
US) a washer or dryer with conventional, non-microcontroller-based controls.
Even some of these fancy-dancy front loaders are made that way:
http://greyghost.mooo.com/doingthela.../newwasher.jpg (494x691,
20KB).

I've been inside it once, and the internals are what you'd expect of a
machine much older. The timer is a simple mechanical one, water level is
detected by vacuum, and while the drum motor has an electronic controller,
it looks to be well made.

How it's possible to not make the microcontroller-based controls work
reliably for years and years is beyond me. Makers of microwave ovens have
managed to do so for years. I've *never* seen a microwave oven with a dead
control panel.

William

William R. Walsh wrote:
Hi!

The obvious solution to this problem is to buy laundry equipment with
conventional electro-mechanical controls. (Assuming they're still made.)

They most certainly are. It's still quite possible to buy (at least in the
US) a washer or dryer with conventional, non-microcontroller-based controls.
Even some of these fancy-dancy front loaders are made that way:
http://greyghost.mooo.com/doingthela.../newwasher.jpg (494x691,
20KB).

I've been inside it once, and the internals are what you'd expect of a
machine much older. The timer is a simple mechanical one, water level is
detected by vacuum, and while the drum motor has an electronic controller,
it looks to be well made.

How it's possible to not make the microcontroller-based controls work
reliably for years and years is beyond me. Makers of microwave ovens have
managed to do so for years. I've *never* seen a microwave oven with a dead
control panel.

I have, several times.

--
W
. | ,. w , "Some people are alive only because
\|/ \|/ it is illegal to kill them." Perna condita delenda est
---^----^---------------------------------------------------------------

Bob Larter wrote:

William R. Walsh wrote:
Hi!

The obvious solution to this problem is to buy laundry equipment with
conventional electro-mechanical controls. (Assuming they're still made.)

They most certainly are. It's still quite possible to buy (at least in the
US) a washer or dryer with conventional, non-microcontroller-based controls.
Even some of these fancy-dancy front loaders are made that way:
http://greyghost.mooo.com/doingthela.../newwasher.jpg (494x691,
20KB).

I've been inside it once, and the internals are what you'd expect of a
machine much older. The timer is a simple mechanical one, water level is
detected by vacuum, and while the drum motor has an electronic controller,
it looks to be well made.

How it's possible to not make the microcontroller-based controls work
reliably for years and years is beyond me. Makers of microwave ovens have
managed to do so for years. I've *never* seen a microwave oven with a dead
control panel.

I have, several times.


Dozens of them.


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense!

William R. Walsh wrote:
I've *never* seen a microwave oven with a dead
control panel.

Really! I`m amazed, I`ve repaired or replaced dozens if not hundreds.
Some are an easy fix, usually a duff capacitor or switch membrane, One
very common model of oven regularly suffered from a o/c resistor in the
supply to the display, others can be sent away for refurbishment at a
reasonable price in comparsison to a new board.

Ron

In article , Ron wrote:
William R. Walsh wrote:
I've *never* seen a microwave oven with a dead
control panel.

Really! I`m amazed, I`ve repaired or replaced dozens if not hundreds.
Some are an easy fix, usually a duff capacitor or switch membrane, One
very common model of oven regularly suffered from a o/c resistor in the
supply to the display, others can be sent away for refurbishment at a
reasonable price in comparsison to a new board.

Ron

I once replaced a dead panel with a mechanical timer. They are really nice though
for quick opperation and simplicity. All the orginals had them. My father loved it, allthough
it was the same as our Heathkit Microwave.

greg

It can be tougher!

If you ever go to an automobile wrecking yard, take apart something
electronic on a vehicle which has to do with safety. Like an anti-lock brake
electronic control module or an airbag monitoring module or the airbag crash
sensors. These things are built like a tank!

Then take apart something which does not have anything to do with safe
driving, and if it breaks, will not cause any safety issues. Like electric
door locks, power windows, power trunk release, etc. These are all a piece
of junk! And the switches which control these things many times will not be
sealed. This allows dust to get in and the switches stop working after a
period of time.

They want things to break, When things break, they get added revenue from
repairs. Some people will purchase a new vehicle instead of having these
things fixed. It means money for the dealers and manufacturer!

Actually I have seen many lower end products be better quality and the
higher end products have all sorts of things which are designed to break and
need service. I think they do this thinking lower cost product buyers don't
have the money for repairs, but higher end product purchasers do.

Bill wrote:
It can be tougher!

If you ever go to an automobile wrecking yard, take apart something
electronic on a vehicle which has to do with safety. Like an anti-lock brake
electronic control module or an airbag monitoring module or the airbag crash
sensors. These things are built like a tank!

Then take apart something which does not have anything to do with safe
driving, and if it breaks, will not cause any safety issues. Like electric
door locks, power windows, power trunk release, etc. These are all a piece
of junk! And the switches which control these things many times will not be
sealed. This allows dust to get in and the switches stop working after a
period of time.

They want things to break, When things break, they get added revenue from
repairs. Some people will purchase a new vehicle instead of having these
things fixed. It means money for the dealers and manufacturer!

Actually I have seen many lower end products be better quality and the
higher end products have all sorts of things which are designed to break and
need service. I think they do this thinking lower cost product buyers don't
have the money for repairs, but higher end product purchasers do.



Having had to have the DME (Porsche-speak for ECM) on my 944 completely
resoldered a few years ago to allow the car to run reliably, I am amused
by your post... I guess Bosch is not the end-all be-all of reliable
electronics manufacturing.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

Nate Nagel wrote:

Having had to have the DME (Porsche-speak for ECM) on my 944 completely
resoldered a few years ago to allow the car to run reliably, I am amused
by your post... I guess Bosch is not the end-all be-all of reliable
electronics manufacturing.


Are you sure they aren't using Lucas?


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense!

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
m...
|
| Nate Nagel wrote:
|
| Having had to have the DME (Porsche-speak for ECM) on my 944 completely
| resoldered a few years ago to allow the car to run reliably, I am amused
| by your post... I guess Bosch is not the end-all be-all of reliable
| electronics manufacturing.
|
|
| Are you sure they aren't using Lucas?
|
Old joke:

Q: Why do the English drink warm beer?
A: They have Lucas refigerators.

On Sun, 31 May 2009 16:48:44 -0700, iws wrote:
"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
om...
|
| Nate Nagel wrote:
|
| Having had to have the DME (Porsche-speak for ECM) on my 944 completely
| resoldered a few years ago to allow the car to run reliably, I am amused
| by your post... I guess Bosch is not the end-all be-all of reliable
| electronics manufacturing.
|
|
| Are you sure they aren't using Lucas?
|
Old joke:

Q: Why do the English drink warm beer?
A: They have Lucas refigerators.


Q: Why don't the British make TV sets?
A: They can't get them to leak oil.
A2: They can make anything leak oil.

Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Nate Nagel wrote:
Having had to have the DME (Porsche-speak for ECM) on my 944 completely
resoldered a few years ago to allow the car to run reliably, I am amused
by your post... I guess Bosch is not the end-all be-all of reliable
electronics manufacturing.


Are you sure they aren't using Lucas?

Lord of Darkness?

--
W
. | ,. w , "Some people are alive only because
\|/ \|/ it is illegal to kill them." Perna condita delenda est
---^----^---------------------------------------------------------------

Bob Larter wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Nate Nagel wrote:
Having had to have the DME (Porsche-speak for ECM) on my 944 completely
resoldered a few years ago to allow the car to run reliably, I am amused
by your post... I guess Bosch is not the end-all be-all of reliable
electronics manufacturing.


Are you sure they aren't using Lucas?

Lord of Darkness?


Yes, except for his failed venture into a chain of all night greasy
spoon diners where he was know as the 'Lard of Darkness'. ;-)


--
Greed is the root of all eBay.

On May 31, 1:07*pm, "Bill" wrote:
It can be tougher!

If you ever go to an automobile wrecking yard, take apart something
electronic on a vehicle which has to do with safety. Like an anti-lock brake
electronic control module or an airbag monitoring module or the airbag crash
sensors. These things are built like a tank!

Then take apart something which does not have anything to do with safe
driving, and if it breaks, will not cause any safety issues. Like electric
door locks, power windows, power trunk release, etc. These are all a piece
of junk! And the switches which control these things many times will not be
sealed. This allows dust to get in and the switches stop working after a
period of time.

They want things to break, When things break, they get added revenue from
repairs. Some people will purchase a new vehicle instead of having these
things fixed. It means money for the dealers and manufacturer!

Actually I have seen many lower end products be better quality and the
higher end products have all sorts of things which are designed to break and
need service. I think they do this thinking lower cost product buyers don't
have the money for repairs, but higher end product purchasers do.

Sounds like the epitaph for GMC! We have neighbours who have
persistently bought Chevrolet/GMC pickups an a couple of mid-size GMC
cars during the last 30 years we have lived in same area.

The Chevs. a) Don't last as long as our Nissans. b) Take more time/
cost for repairs. And we are not talking heavy commercial/contractor
usage of the Chevrolet products, just back and forth on paved roads to
work.

In fact our smaller Nissan/Toyota pickups were used for commercial
catering work, carrying heavy loads of dishes etc. on a weekly daily
basis in all weathers.

Since both our neighbours and ourselves have helped each other do many
of the repairs we each have had an inside look at what has worn/needed
repairs on both types of vehicles.

But our more recent (Japanese) vehicles have been assembled/
manufactured in the USA and contain more 'Made in Mexico' or 'Made in
Taiwan' parts and have not had the quality of of our earlier vehicles
made entirely in say, Japan.

Interesting how the Japanese manufacturing went from tin-pot junk in
the 1930 to the high quality of today. A relative recently bought a
nine year old Lexus; a beautiful car!

Seems to prove that cost and profit and high short term bonuses for
auto executives were not the best policy?

And when it comes to home repairs/renovations etc. would one not
expect domestic appliance to last at least as long/longer than a well
used motor vehicle? However In one mid-eastern country we bought and
used a full size US manufactured clothes dryer that was of excellent
quality and capability, better than Italian and other European made
products.

"brassplyer" wrote in message
...
I see these newer dryers and front-load washers have what I assume to
be some kind of IC control circuitry and from what I've seen my
suspicions about this being a likely point of failure appear to be
correct. LG warranties the motor for 10 years but the circuit board
only for 2. I'm betting it's expensive to replace too.

For as many years as this technology has been around, why can't the
control circuitry be made more bulletproof?

I had to replace the circuit board on my RV furnace. The old one looked
like it was basically just underbuilt. The circuit paths were very narrow
and all the components were the smallest values possible. The replacement
board from a company that just makes circuit boards was much beefier plus
was a better design as far as function goes.

I don't get it because they could spend a few more bucks on the electronics
and make it more reliable and simply charge a few more bucks for the
appliance. Instead they get a bad reputation.

Ulysses wrote:
"brassplyer" wrote in message
...
I see these newer dryers and front-load washers have what I assume to
be some kind of IC control circuitry and from what I've seen my
suspicions about this being a likely point of failure appear to be
correct. LG warranties the motor for 10 years but the circuit board
only for 2. I'm betting it's expensive to replace too.

For as many years as this technology has been around, why can't the
control circuitry be made more bulletproof?

I had to replace the circuit board on my RV furnace. The old one looked
like it was basically just underbuilt. The circuit paths were very narrow
and all the components were the smallest values possible. The replacement
board from a company that just makes circuit boards was much beefier plus
was a better design as far as function goes.

I don't get it because they could spend a few more bucks on the electronics
and make it more reliable and simply charge a few more bucks for the
appliance. Instead they get a bad reputation.


Its the "walmart syndrome" at work. People are trained to think that
price and not value is all that matters. So manufacturers do their best
to make cheap stuff to meet low price-low value demands.

On Sun, 31 May 2009 12:12:03 -0400, George
wrote:

Its the "walmart syndrome" at work. People are trained to think that
price and not value is all that matters. So manufacturers do their best
to make cheap stuff to meet low price-low value demands.

Yep. In consumer electronics, for every dollar added to the cost of a
board, the final product ends up costing about $4 more at wholesale,
and perhaps $6 to $8 more at retail. Needless to say, keeping costs
in line is fairly important to the manufacturer. Minimal design and
component selection is epidemic everywhere. Having worked on some of
these designs in the distant past, I can assure you that the choice is
make it cheap or it won't sell. I called it the "NBC" (Nothing But
the Cheapest) effect. However, think positive. The only thing that
has prevented electronics from hitting rock bottom in quality are the
various regulatory and certification agencies, which demand a minimal
level of quality to insure the survival of the user, not the product.

Drivel: One of my friends is a rabid advocate for enforced quality in
product design. He wants minimum Federal quality standards for
consumer products along with mandatory lifetime testing, mandatory
warranties, and litigatory relief. His theory is that if the US can't
compete on the basis of price, it will need to do so on the basis of
quality. Sounds like a plan. However, he recently rebuilt and
remodeled his garage and bathroom. Instead of the highest quality
contractor, he went for the cheapest and lowest bid, with predictable
problems and over-runs. When I suggested this might be a bit
hypocritical, he got very angry claiming he couldn't afford the best.
Welcome to where theory meets reality.


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

"Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 31 May 2009 12:12:03 -0400, George
wrote:

Its the "walmart syndrome" at work. People are trained to think that
price and not value is all that matters. So manufacturers do their best
to make cheap stuff to meet low price-low value demands.

Yep. In consumer electronics, for every dollar added to the cost of a
board, the final product ends up costing about $4 more at wholesale,
and perhaps $6 to $8 more at retail. Needless to say, keeping costs
in line is fairly important to the manufacturer. Minimal design and
component selection is epidemic everywhere. Having worked on some of
these designs in the distant past, I can assure you that the choice is
make it cheap or it won't sell. I called it the "NBC" (Nothing But
the Cheapest) effect. However, think positive. The only thing that
has prevented electronics from hitting rock bottom in quality are the
various regulatory and certification agencies, which demand a minimal
level of quality to insure the survival of the user, not the product.

Drivel: One of my friends is a rabid advocate for enforced quality in
product design. He wants minimum Federal quality standards for
consumer products along with mandatory lifetime testing, mandatory
warranties, and litigatory relief. His theory is that if the US can't
compete on the basis of price, it will need to do so on the basis of
quality. Sounds like a plan.

I have become extremely hesitant to buy any electronics any more. All of
the stuff seems to be crap that barely outlasts the warranty. For the first
time I actually paid for an extended warranty on a DVD recorder and ended up
needing it. I have to look at it now as if it costs $400 (including
extended 3 year warranty) then I have to pay $100 per year in order to have
the luxury of a DVD recorder. If it last longer than that then it's just
luck and I sure don't count on it. My daughter has a Kodak digital camera.
It lasted just past the warranty. Kodak wants more to fix it than a new one
with more features costs. Meanwhile my old Brownie, Instamatic, and other
cheap, bottom-of-the-line Kodak cameras still work fine. The Brownie is
probably over 60 years old.

However, he recently rebuilt and
remodeled his garage and bathroom. Instead of the highest quality
contractor, he went for the cheapest and lowest bid, with predictable
problems and over-runs. When I suggested this might be a bit
hypocritical, he got very angry claiming he couldn't afford the best.
Welcome to where theory meets reality.

Your friend is a Democrat?




--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Ulysses wrote:
I have become extremely hesitant to buy any electronics any more. All of
the stuff seems to be crap that barely outlasts the warranty. For the first
time I actually paid for an extended warranty on a DVD recorder and ended up
needing it. I have to look at it now as if it costs $400 (including
extended 3 year warranty) then I have to pay $100 per year in order to have
the luxury of a DVD recorder. If it last longer than that then it's just
luck and I sure don't count on it. My daughter has a Kodak digital camera.
It lasted just past the warranty. Kodak wants more to fix it than a new one
with more features costs. Meanwhile my old Brownie, Instamatic, and other
cheap, bottom-of-the-line Kodak cameras still work fine. The Brownie is
probably over 60 years old.

Buy a Canon. All three of mine[0] are well past their warranty, & are
still going strong. (Including the original batteries!)

[0] An S30 digicam, an EOS-10D & an EOS-1Dmk2.

--
W
. | ,. w , "Some people are alive only because
\|/ \|/ it is illegal to kill them." Perna condita delenda est
---^----^---------------------------------------------------------------

"Ulysses" wrote in message
...
|
| "Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message
| ...
| On Sun, 31 May 2009 12:12:03 -0400, George
| wrote:
|
| Its the "walmart syndrome" at work. People are trained to think that
| price and not value is all that matters. So manufacturers do their best
| to make cheap stuff to meet low price-low value demands.
|
| Yep. In consumer electronics, for every dollar added to the cost of a
| board, the final product ends up costing about $4 more at wholesale,
| and perhaps $6 to $8 more at retail. Needless to say, keeping costs
| in line is fairly important to the manufacturer. Minimal design and
| component selection is epidemic everywhere. Having worked on some of
| these designs in the distant past, I can assure you that the choice is
| make it cheap or it won't sell. I called it the "NBC" (Nothing But
| the Cheapest) effect. However, think positive. The only thing that
| has prevented electronics from hitting rock bottom in quality are the
| various regulatory and certification agencies, which demand a minimal
| level of quality to insure the survival of the user, not the product.
|
| Drivel: One of my friends is a rabid advocate for enforced quality in
| product design. He wants minimum Federal quality standards for
| consumer products along with mandatory lifetime testing, mandatory
| warranties, and litigatory relief. His theory is that if the US can't
| compete on the basis of price, it will need to do so on the basis of
| quality. Sounds like a plan.
|
| I have become extremely hesitant to buy any electronics any more. All of
| the stuff seems to be crap that barely outlasts the warranty. For the
first
| time I actually paid for an extended warranty on a DVD recorder and ended
up
| needing it.

Buy it with a credit card that extends the mfgr's warranty by up to an
additional year and forget the "extended warranty."

On May 31, 11:58*am, "Ulysses" wrote:
"brassplyer" wrote in message

...

I see these newer dryers and front-load washers have what I assume to
be some kind of IC control circuitry and from what I've seen my
suspicions about this being a likely point of failure appear to be
correct. LG warranties the motor for 10 years but the circuit board
only for 2. I'm betting it's expensive to replace too.

For as many years as this technology has been around, why can't the
control circuitry be made more bulletproof?

I had to replace the circuit board on my RV furnace. *The old one looked
like it was basically just underbuilt. *The circuit paths were very narrow
and all the components were the smallest values possible. *The replacement
board from a company that just makes circuit boards was much beefier plus
was a better design as far as function goes.

I don't get it because they could spend a few more bucks on the electronics
and make it more reliable and simply charge a few more bucks for the
appliance. *Instead they get a bad reputation.

I used to repair similar circuit boards often replacing the parts with
beefier ,better quality parts. I worked myself out of a job. The
particular boards I was repairing were only used by a reativly few and
once I made my repairs/mods they almost never failed again. Part of
may also have been that my customers realized I wasnt actually
troublshooting the board, rather I was repacing everything on the
board with better parts. They could do that for themselves.

Jimmie

On May 31, 11:58*am, "Ulysses" wrote:
"brassplyer" wrote in message

...

I see these newer dryers and front-load washers have what I assume to
be some kind of IC control circuitry and from what I've seen my
suspicions about this being a likely point of failure appear to be
correct. LG warranties the motor for 10 years but the circuit board
only for 2. I'm betting it's expensive to replace too.

For as many years as this technology has been around, why can't the
control circuitry be made more bulletproof?

I had to replace the circuit board on my RV furnace. *The old one looked
like it was basically just underbuilt. *The circuit paths were very narrow
and all the components were the smallest values possible. *

Looking at the size of traces or components on an electronic circuit
board is just about meaningless. Almost all of these today are
digital, which work on signals of micro amps. The only areas
carrying any current of substance, typically are driving a relay,
solenoid, etc. or part of the power supply, if that happens to be on
the board. That area of the board does need to have the proper size
trace.




The replacement
board from a company that just makes circuit boards was much beefier plus
was a better design as far as function goes.

I don't get it because they could spend a few more bucks on the electronics
and make it more reliable and simply charge a few more bucks for the
appliance. *Instead they get a bad reputation.

wrote:

Looking at the size of traces or components on an electronic circuit
board is just about meaningless. Almost all of these today are
digital, which work on signals of micro amps.


Bull****. low currents, yes, but you need to read some datasheets. I
worked at a manufacturer of top of the line telemetry equipment. Traces
that are very thin are prone to stress cracks. My specialty was the
embedded controller computer board we built in house, and they had to be
reliable. They controlled the equipment NASA uses to track their
launches, and all their satellites.


The only areas
carrying any current of substance, typically are driving a relay,
solenoid, etc. or part of the power supply, if that happens to be on
the board. That area of the board does need to have the proper size
trace.


I'm happy that I never had to work with you. A washer or dryer is a
damp environment, with continuous vibration, while in use. Potting will
keep most of the moisture away, but that can cause SMD components to be
pulled off the board. A sealed container is better, but can add to the
vibration problems, due to the extra weight.

--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense!

brassplyer wrote:
I see these newer dryers and front-load washers have what I assume to
be some kind of IC control circuitry and from what I've seen my
suspicions about this being a likely point of failure appear to be
correct. LG warranties the motor for 10 years but the circuit board
only for 2. I'm betting it's expensive to replace too.

For as many years as this technology has been around, why can't the
control circuitry be made more bulletproof?

$$$

--
W
. | ,. w , "Some people are alive only because
\|/ \|/ it is illegal to kill them." Perna condita delenda est
---^----^---------------------------------------------------------------

brassplyer wrote:

I see these newer dryers and front-load washers have what I assume to
be some kind of IC control circuitry and from what I've seen my
suspicions about this being a likely point of failure appear to be
correct. LG warranties the motor for 10 years but the circuit board
only for 2. I'm betting it's expensive to replace too.

For as many years as this technology has been around, why can't the
control circuitry be made more bulletproof?

The EU has made it less bullettproof by insisting on lead-free solder. It
doesn't like vibration.

Graham

--
due to the hugely increased level of spam please make the obvious
adjustment to my email address

"brassplyer" wrote in message
...
I see these newer dryers and front-load washers have what I assume to
be some kind of IC control circuitry and from what I've seen my
suspicions about this being a likely point of failure appear to be
correct. LG warranties the motor for 10 years but the circuit board
only for 2. I'm betting it's expensive to replace too.

For as many years as this technology has been around, why can't the
control circuitry be made more bulletproof?

The majority are brainwashed to need a new one every 2 years without
question. Any company that builds to last more than 2 years will be
competing with itself and others and will fail because no one will pay twice
as much for a 4 year old model. Sure it is wrong to generate so much waste,
but you go out of business first, OK?

"brassplyer" wrote in message
...
For as many years as this technology has been around, why can't the
control circuitry be made more bulletproof?

Hmmm, do you think companies WANT their products to last forever? Of COURSE
these circuits can be made bulletproof, but have you heard of "planned
obsolescence"? Washing machine companies want to sell washing machines.
That means people's old washing machines need to irreparably break. So,
they design an electronics board with a finite lifespan, produce a finite
number of spares at the time of the original production run, and when those
spares are gone that machine is junk. Maybe that board is repairable, but
the labor involved to fix it is huge. Maybe they've stuck a proprietary IC
or 2 on there which fails so it CAN'T be fixed no way no how.

"Dave" wrote in message
news:w9cVl.29090$Db2.28757@edtnps83...

"brassplyer" wrote in message
...
For as many years as this technology has been around, why can't the
control circuitry be made more bulletproof?

Hmmm, do you think companies WANT their products to last forever? Of
COURSE these circuits can be made bulletproof, but have you heard of
"planned obsolescence"? Washing machine companies want to sell washing
machines. That means people's old washing machines need to irreparably
break. So,

That is part of what got theAmerican car companies in trouble.
Also no one wants to pay more for a good product.

The old Comodore computer company had a replacement policy where you could
send the computer to them and they would repair it for a flat fee. They had
some unskilled labor to open up the case , throw out the electronics and
install new electronics. The new board cost them $ 50, the repair cost to
coustomers was around $ 70 to $ 80.
Cheeper to throw out the whole exectronics and replace it than the labor to
repair them.

The old Comodore computer company had a replacement policy where
you could send the computer to them and they would repair it for a flat
fee.
They had some unskilled labor to open up the case, throw out the
electronics
and install new electronics. The new board cost them $ 50, the repair cost
to customers was around $ 70 to $ 80. Cheeper to throw out the whole
exectronics and replace it than the labor to repair them.

30 years (or so) ago, GE simply replaced defective electronics with a
refurbished unit. The unit you sent in was placed in a pile, to be repaired
at a later date. This probably worked well, if a technician worked on four
or five identical units at the same time.

Ralph Mowery wrote:
"Dave" wrote in message
news:w9cVl.29090$Db2.28757@edtnps83...
"brassplyer" wrote in message
...
For as many years as this technology has been around, why can't the
control circuitry be made more bulletproof?
Hmmm, do you think companies WANT their products to last forever? Of
COURSE these circuits can be made bulletproof, but have you heard of
"planned obsolescence"? Washing machine companies want to sell washing
machines. That means people's old washing machines need to irreparably
break. So,

That is part of what got theAmerican car companies in trouble.
Also no one wants to pay more for a good product.

The old Comodore computer company had a replacement policy where you could
send the computer to them and they would repair it for a flat fee. They had
some unskilled labor to open up the case , throw out the electronics and
install new electronics. The new board cost them $ 50, the repair cost to
coustomers was around $ 70 to $ 80.
Cheeper to throw out the whole exectronics and replace it than the labor to
repair them.



I've obtained a lot of electronic stuff for free that only
needed simple repairs. I get computer mother boards that
cost $100.00 new and all they need is a keyboard fuse that
is easy (for me) to replace. A lot of people who claim the
title "service technician" have no idea how to repair a
circuit board. Many of the problems I see with modern gear
are caused by cold solder joints on the circuit boards.

TDD